Garza Podcast - 49: Tim Lambesis | AS I LAY DYING

Episode Date: October 17, 2022

Tim Lambesis is the founder & vocalist for American metalcore band As I Lay Dying. We talk about the early years of AILD, Tim's time being incarcerated, what is was like for the band coming back & much more! SPONSORS: distrokid.com/vip/garza 30% OFF! emgpickups.com Promo Code: Heavy 15% OFF! TIME CODES: 00:00 - Intro 00:49 - The Start of AILD 10:29 - Finding Band Members, Metal Blade & The Black Dahlia Murder 16:44 - Shadows Are Security, Creative Tension & Ozzfest 23:53 - An Ocean Between Us 31:36 - The Powerless Rise 37:44 - Awakened & Spirituality 44:54 - Being Incarcerated 54:00 - Communication with the Band 01:00:04 - The Discussion, Post Prison & Rehabilitation 01:05:08 - My Own Grave 01:09:16 - The Classic Lineup 01:14:15 - What Incarceration is, Non Profit & Therapy 01:18:23 - The Fans  01:25:36 - 2nd Chance, Redemption & Childhood Trauma 01:36:13 - Future of AILD  

Hey, it's weird to me that you guys just put out one song and then didn't address the elephant in the room. And we said, well, dude, we don't know how to do it. And I don't want to, like, make them feel bad for hating me even. Just like, okay, you hate me? Then you hate me. So what? I got, I have no choice but to move on with my life. Use EMG pickups because they help you get the heaviest tone possible.

Head over to emgpickups.com and use my promo code heavy at checkout and get 15% off. And then once you write the heaviest song of all time, head over to Distro Kid. dot com slash VIP slash Garza and save 30% off your membership to get all your songs on all streaming platforms and now to the heaviest podcast of all time. Tim Lambesis is good to have you, man. Yeah, it's great to be here. I've been looking forward to the conversation ever since we spoke on the phone. Yeah.

It's cool, man. So thank you for making that drive. For sure. Yeah. I mean, Ken told me he ran into you and you guys had a great conversation. And then obviously we talked shortly after that. Yeah, it must be so crazy to be in a band with the guitar player from Unearth Ken. He's a fucking psycho.

I love him. Well, he's actually, when he first started performing with us, he kind of tamed it down a little bit because he's like, well, he's like, am I supposed to like be Azla Dying Ken? Or am I supposed to be myself? And we just like said, dude, it's okay to be yourself. Like I know there's normally not guys on stage doing pushups during an Asla Dying show. If you want to do it, go for it. I know, yeah. It's like, oh, you know, just be you.

Yeah, yeah. You know, but I think he's doing a good job. Yeah, and I think, like, for me, as, like, a front man, like, I smile a lot more having him on stage. Not that I don't smile with, like, you know, like Ryan and Nick playing with us also, those guys make me smile. But Ken's, like, literally, like, making jokes during the set, you know, making sure everybody in the stage is having a great vibe, you know? Yeah, that's awesome, yeah. Yeah, that this vibe will affect your vibe, you know? Yeah, for sure.

Oh, yeah, I mean, a lot of fun. Cool. Yeah. Hell yeah. You know what I didn't know about you? and I just found out you were in point of recognition for like a hot year.

It was like you in Jordan 2001? Yeah, so Jordan and I when they were getting ready, I think the record was called Day of Defeet and we started writing for that record. We did a couple songs with them. The original versions of those songs was Jordan and I performing on it.

And then I was on tour with Asla Dying at the time and I got a phone call. They said, hey, we want to be a little bit more full-time touring. You're going to have to choose. We hate to put you in the situation, but you've got to choose. And Azla Dying was definitely the smaller band at the time, but it was like

kind of my baby because I started it. So I said, hey, you know, it's probably a weird decision for you guys to hear because I'm turning down the bigger band to do the smaller band, but like this is what I believe in. Yeah. Probably made the right choice. No, you made the right choice. It's always like a conflict in which I mean, you're

from San Diego. Yeah. You know, and we've been around the same Southern California hardcore metal core scene, and it's very common for the, like, the smaller band to join the bigger bands. And it never really worked out, you know? So what, yeah, what made you really stay? Like, you get like, okay, to someone else, I could be like, oh, I could be between the bigger band. This is like an opportunity. But what made

you like, I'm going to stay with my fucking band, you know? Well, there's a lot of things that are interesting about that. It just kind of got instinct at the time because I can't really, like, put a lot of logic to it. The logic actually would have driven me the other way because I, this is kind of an unknown fact, but like I wanted to be a guitar player or a bass player in a band. I didn't want to be a singer. So even in the early days of Azalee dying, I actually, you know, I told Jordan, I said, hey, I'm going to keep writing songs with you on guitar. Like, rehearsal was just Jordan and I. I'd play guitar. He'd play drums and we'd write songs. I'd write songs. You know, he'd figure out like the best beats for it and stuff like that.

And so that was the general vibe of like how I wrote the Azale dine songs. And I said, well, ideally we find it like a great singer and then I just play guitar. And that would be my preference. And so logic is like, I wanted to play guitar instead of sing. I wanted to be in a bigger band that could eventually make, you know, make music full-time and that could be my career. And all those things pointed towards, like, going, you know, being a guitar player in a different band, right? Yeah. But my instinct still told me, I don't know why.

I don't, I don't actually, like, love being a singer. I love being a songwriter. So I kind of did what was, like, against my own logic, but it just my instinct told me to do it. Yeah, you went with the instinct. Yeah. That's it. It's funny, like, was, did you, so you're the founder of Azelaideon, or is it you in Jordan

at what point did Jordan come in the picture? So, really, like, technically speaking, the foundational songs that became the original Azla dying full-length. A bunch of those songs I had worked on with a friend of mine from high school in 2000, before I met Jordan. And then I had those songs, and I came to Jordan, and I said, hey, I'm looking for a drummer.

Are you interested? Like, here's some demos of the material. Okay. And he was like, yeah, yeah, I'm interested. So it was like kind of a situation where it was like, you know, I'm truly the founding member, I guess, or the core of the songwriting team, so to speak. You know, but of course I don't play drums,

so I had to have the best drummer I knew. And he was by far the best drummer I knew in the San Diego area at the time. At least it was like, you know, available and stuff. And so we didn't have a pre-existing friendship. We just kind of had crossed paths, and I knew he was a great drummer and said, do you want to do this?

And he said yes. And then, of course, our friendship and relationship grew from there. Oh, wow. Interesting because it seems like Asla adeline, it's like, that's your, like, vision and, like, your gut feeling, right? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of weird, if you listen to, like, the very early stuff, which I don't really love, like, the first... The Zio?

The Zio parts? Yeah, those parts, yeah, yeah. So, I had been playing guitar for literally, like, like, about a year or less at that point, but I was the guy writing the guitar parts, you know what I mean? So it was, like, it's very simple, but had, like, an energy this, like, I don't know, just kind of, like, generally speaking, dark enough to fit my vocals, but, like, enough you know, energy and melody to like not be too boring for how simple it was, you know what I mean? And that was like, that's all I could really do at that time. And then I, of course, I progressed as a guitar player.

And by the time we did our next full length, which was, you know, I had written 94 hours in the opening riff to that. It's not like shreddy or anything, but you could tell as a guitar player, I'd gotten, you know, obviously much better. Yeah. And so I was writing riffs more like the 94 hours riffs by the time we did our next record. And that's why our record is just progressively. And then Phil came and joined the band. And Phil is a riff machine. So you had like my foundational ideas.

and then Phil really just taking all that to the next level. The way the sound has progressed at that, and we're going to get into that, I have it all the timeline here, is like, was that like the way the band sounds now, was that kind of similar to what was inside your mind, your ears, or soul, like, you know, year 2000, like that doesn't want, you had a sound that you were trying to get out?

Very, very early days. I mean, there was like, Living Sacrifice was my favorite. it like heavy rhythmically rhythmically based kind of band like I you know like Moshogo was a little too much for me at the time the living sacrifice was still like mostly you know gruevable in the four four although they have the polyrhythms and stuff and so it was like kind of like to me a little a little bit more like emotionally like where I identified with like the rhythmic part of the band okay so that rhythmic part I've always wanted to have and then the melodic part sort of progressed as I became a better guitar

player and then like I said when Phil came I mean he's even a much much better guitar player than me obviously so the original vision was like more like rhythmically based and then um all the melody options became like endless once you know once you have like talented musicians playing with you totally it's Tim was kind of bizarre about that is we had that in common like we had like a vision then you kind of get like a member to me that that was Mitch and you kind of like get talented people and eventually like your vision kind of involves right yeah for sure it's crazy yeah And of course, like, for when it came to, I guess what we call in our genre, clean vocals, which is kind of a funny thing, but singing, you know?

Sure. You know, I had written all the original choruses for our first few records, but I don't really sing in a tenor range. So I was always like, hey, can you try these vocal melodies I wrote? You know, I'd ask us different guys that were in the tenor range to sing them for me. Yeah. And I can sing fine in a baritone range, but I just, I don't like baritone vocals. You know what I mean? There's like very few bands that I can take seriously that have a baritone vocalist.

Wow. That's just, and then, of course, Josh, Bollone. became not only a great singer for that range, but then really took the melodies on our last couple records and became the melody writer. That's why those choruses feel a little bit more like him. It's not like him singing one of my courses, it's him singing his own choruses, you know?

Yeah, yeah. There's definitely a switch when you each one. He's a fucking great singer, man. Yeah, he is incredible. I love him. Since I know it won't get too much into your first record because I know that brings a pain. No, it's funny.

Real quick, early story question, or earlier story comment is, do you remember that band Falling Cycle? We played their last show, man. So, so sick. So Falling Cycle, for a brief moment, we toured with Falling Cycle, and for a brief moment,

they had two guys that left. And so then I said, well, you guys need a guitar player? I would love to do it. And so I adapted to the Falling Cycle mindset, and I said, well, I'll write a couple songs for what would be the next Falling Cycle record. Seriously?

Yeah, yeah. And then, so I started, like, riffing a little bit more melodically like them. And then they said, actually, you know what? Like, we kind of rescind our offer because we have somebody who lives closer to us. It's just kind of like a better fit, you know, blah, blah. And it was like, hey, I mean, we literally, all we had was a couple lunches to talk about being in the band together. We never, like, actually, you know, put together a record.

So I was like, well, I never even showed them the songs. And I said, but these songs are still cool. So I made them feel more like what I felt like was Azley Dying at the time. And that's literally the melodic metal influence of Azley Dying was sort of like derivative, because it's like, Falling Cycle was influenced by In Flames. and then I was influenced by falling cycle who's influenced by Inflames and then of course I got into In Flames because of that

you know and so it's like you have this like rhythmic living sacrifice side and then this like melodic In Flame side and like I'm trying to figure out how to put them together as a learning guitar player you know who's still like literally never taking lessons just playing what I think sounds cool and fun to me you know and this many years later it's like

you know influencing a genre I'm not saying that we're foundational but we're definitely one of the earlier bands to yeah people think of metalcore and they think of, there's an as a dying sound, you know. Yes. And so part of that is just that like, you know, self-taught, just piecing things together that just feel right to me.

Yeah, dude, that's, that's so crazy. And what's kind of bizarre about that first record is that got you signed essentially to Metal Blade, correct? Yeah, it was actually the demos, there's this EP we had where we had kind of taken that slightly more melodic sound, like I was telling you from, like, influence from Falling Cycle, me wanting to play guitar in that band. It was actually that EP that they were most interested in.

They actually even told us, hey, you know, your first full-length's fine or whatever, but we like the direction you're going in this EP. Interesting how they saw some. Yeah. That kind of blows me away, you know? Well, at the time, they signed us in Black Dolly Murder. Oh, wow.

And their thing was like, okay, these are two younger bands at the time. You know, we were like the new wave of whatever became, you know, Metal Blade's new wave for sure. Yes. And they actually felt like at the time, hey, Black Dahlia is probably the band that's going to really cross over for them because it's their traditional like death metal audience,

but they're like these younger guys that are going to put like a modern twist on it. And I think they felt like that was most likely going to be the band that connected for them. But they also had us as sort of like, I wouldn't say the backup band, but like, you know, the other band, right? Whoa.

And, you know, of course that flipped. Not to take anything from Black Dahlia, or incredible band, I think, but they've still stayed within the ceiling of like death metal or melodic death metal. Yes. Whereas I think we crossed over a little bit because a lot of people came to our shows and say, hey, I don't normally like metal, but for some reason I like you guys, and that was something that I felt like was really important for the genre at the time.

Yeah, and you, and you stuck by that too. Every record like you guys did was like a big step. Like a step from like that first record to, to frail words. Like that's a massive step. And then you said, you mentioned that you wrote like 94 hours. hours and forever. And you produced that, correct? Yeah, so at the time we just hired a great engineer.

But he hadn't really done a metal core record like that. I mean, not very many engineers had at the time. Yeah. So we felt like, well, he's a great engineer. He knows the technical side, but he doesn't know our songwriting structure and this kind of genre. So we felt like from a producing standpoint, self-producing was the best option. Yeah. But from a technical standpoint, I was still learning as an engineer.

I mean, I'm a good engineer now, and I could put together records from start to finish, no problem. But at that time, all I knew how to hit was Spacebar to start the recording, right? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So then now we're going into 2004. And how did, like, Phil and Nick come in a picture? Yeah.

Phil, see, Phil got the phone call. Our guitar player who was playing with this time, his name was Chris Lindstrom. He was from New Jersey. Jersey and he was kind of like a transplant to like you know tour with us and so he was like you know it's kind of like just away from his normal world and just realized you know this isn't really for me this like touring living off of five dollars a day and a van all year long yeah um him and I are still friends to this day but like he you know he just realized it wasn't for him and so he said hey I'm not going to like leave you guys high and dry but when you guys find a new guy I'd like to you know

go back to living New Jersey and so um I called Phil because he was from another local San Diego band and said hey dude uh you know no really promises on anything but But if you can do this, like, just fly out to this tour, hang out with us for a couple weeks until you feel like you're comfortable with the songs and then start performing and we'll send Chris home as soon as you're ready. And that's how Phil joined the band. And then Nick joined the band in a very, very similar story because those early days of touring, as you know, are very grueling.

Yes. So our other guitar player, Evan White, he had some like personal relationship stuff. They're just very stressful to deal with on the road and just was like, hey, man, like, I don't really feel like I'm able to like. like, you know, put together the life I want to put together with the stress of all this, you know, insanity of being on tour and stuff. Yeah. Said, I'd like to go home too.

And it was super similar situation where we just said, okay, dude, like, don't leave us high and dry. Give us enough time to, like, he was on tour. You know, we had a new guy come in, fill in for a little bit so he could go home. And then when we traveled through the Dallas area, we had done some touring with Nick's old band Evelyn. And so we knew that he was a good guitar player. We just said, hey, dude, you want to pick up, uh, as soon as you know,

as we get home from this tour, you want to pick up on our next one. And he said, sure. And, you know, for me, like, I was never looking for, you know, another songwriter or, I just wanted a guy that could do great job performing live. And both Phil and Nick did incredible jobs. And then it turns out that, of course, Phil, I didn't know this at the time, but Phil's an incredible songwriter. So, you know, I got the added bonus of him taking over the vast majority of the guitar riffing.

Yeah. Because playing guitar and riffing are way different than actually songwriting. Yeah. I mean, and for me, like, there's so many great, like, lead solo players out there that can shred, you know, but I'm not a great guitar player, but I can generally write better songs than a lot of those guys, you know what I mean? But I could never play a guitar solo, even a tenth as good as these guys could play. And so there's just so many different nuances to what make a song a song. But I think, like, the riffing-based songwriting that, like, Asla dying is, is, that's like, you know, without Phil, the band really wouldn't have become what it became because he's such, like, a riff-oriented songwriter. Yeah.

Yeah. And I've been having this conversation quite often is that a lot of people don't talk about Phil and his incredible guitar playing and songs. Like he's a great guitar player, man. Yeah, he is. Shout out, she shout out Phil, dude. He's amazing. Well, to me, like, as somebody who, most of our riffs are so, like, rhythmically based, having a tight right hand to me is way more important than having, you know, the ability to shred on your left hand for a solo. So, like, Phil's right hand, I don't, I don't know very many. people in the world that have a right hand as good as Phil's. Obviously, there's some incredible guitar players out there that do.

But that's one of the things that I think most younger guitar players don't recognize is that if you want to be a great guitar player, especially in the studio and live when you're under a microscope, and there's like, you know, live stream recordings of you playing for, you know, Valkin Festival, 90,000 people and you don't get to redo it. You know, like, whatever comes out of your amp is what's actually there forever. And you listen to how tight his right hand is. It's like, dang, you know, this is with him, like, running around on stage and he's still got that right hand just locked in. Wow. Yeah, you guys really connected musically, like right out of

the gate, it seems. Phil and I did for sure. And I think there's some creative tension over that because at the time, you know, I viewed myself like, hey, I write the guitar parts mostly. And then it was like, but Phil's like I got all these great ideas. Like, okay, well, I recognize like hands down, like some of your riffs are way better than mine. So it's like, okay, well, who's really in charge of putting together this song, you know? And so the early, early days, putting our first record together, shadows our security, Phil and I actually had some creative, I don't know, like tension, so to speak, you know, like, you know, be like a little bit dramatic at times. And then we've, like, work through that. And clearly it's like, now we have this understanding of like, okay,

you know, Tim might really understand a big picture vibe of what he wants. You might have a couple riffs that, like, that, like, have a feeling to them, but, like, they can all be torn apart and made more interesting from a guitar player's perspective. And so I don't take offense if he wants to rip apart my riffs. And he's not offended if I'm like, hey, I really, you feel like the structure the song needs to go this way. There's nothing but respect now, but in those early days it created some interesting tension. Oh, yeah.

Like those feelings you're like, oh my gosh, you shut up. My, my, because your idea is always better, right? In your head? Well, like, as a young musician, if somebody says, hey, I don't like that riff, it's like you feel like, I don't like you. I know.

It's like, well, I wrote that riff, so you're saying you don't like me. And it's like, no, no, that's not what I'm saying. It's so hard to process when you're super young. Yeah. But that created tension, actually explains because Shadows

that came out 2005 that and again like another massive jump musically songwriting I mean tones

I mean how do you convince the band hey we're gonna have Andy Steat mix it and pay ungoly amount of money and like

fucking and get and get him to mix it yeah I mean that actually came from like you know the label was

was open to us like self-producing again yeah and they just said hey you know you guys still produced because you know what you're doing but you know the mix in your last record was unique and it was quirky and it was cool but like

you don't want every record to sound like that and so we started listening to some of our favorite records at the time I don't know if you remember some of those early arch enemy records that Andy Sneep mixed but like yeah great it's funny because like we listen to him now and it's like oh those aren't the best mixes in the world by today's modern standards but at that time those were great mixes you know so yeah and obviously

Andy Sneep has progressed and he does great mixes even still today but totally that was really where that came from I mean, it sounds incredible. Like when you're like, have like a fresh year and you put on like, you know, for, for me, you know, I've listened to your music heavily the past week. And like, man, when darkest nights come on, you're like, whoa. There's like, there's that, that unexplainable, like, shift, you know? It's like, man, like that's, you can only do that stuff I feel like so strongly about.

You can only do that with some creative tension. You know, you kind of can't do stuff like that when it's like, ah, you know. One of the downfalls, though, of Phil and I being so guitar-oriented in the way we thought and worked about music in that time is that vocals got put off till very, very last. Even my own fault there, because I just was so focused on the rest of the song. Then when it came time to track the vocals, I was literally tracking those songs to lie, like one take, like start to finish. Really? Like modern music, and I do this now, I'd just do like one line at a time, make sure I really like it, move on to the next line. But back then it was like, oh, shoot, we've only got like two days last.

to finish this record and I haven't tracked vocals yet. Are you serious? I'm just gonna sing the songs like straight through, you know? No way. No, and I hate the vocals on that record for that reason. Really? But I mean, you know, it's a, what do you call it? Like a snapshot in time of like where we were at.

And so it's like, you know, I've always, if I could redo anything, even with the quirky mix of Frillers Collapse and some of these older records, how bizarre the mixes are, if I could redo one thing, I still would just want to redo the vocals on Shadows or Security because I just had to rush through it so fast. Oh my goodness. dude well I mean fans loved it you know yeah and it and obviously um the genre at the time like

you know there wasn't like the crazy layered vocals like we have now like now like now it's like you know every other line's got a double to it and then you know the big line going into the chorus has got like you know a high and a low together and then like the chorus has got like six layers of vocals you know but back then it was literally just like a single vocal start finish you know what I mean so it's just a different kind of era yeah it was a different era huh yeah interesting I mean I mean obviously that I mean that was your first time like really being on like the billboards like 200 like you're

now now you're selling a fuck ton of records and now and now you're on tour with the slip knot like like you know how like like how did you guys take that you know when like when you put out a record that kind that hits in a big way like it's it's really hard to deal with that shit

you know like now you guys are on a fucking big ass tour yeah I'm just a band from San Diego if I was playing zero riffs like fucking a few years ago you know. Yeah, I'm one of those mindsets. Like, I don't really get to a place where, like, well, I'm working on this now, but, like, where I really enjoy, like, where we've gotten to.

I, like, so focused on the journey itself and just, like, pushing and pushing and progressing. Of course. That, like, I didn't recognize, like, you know, hey, to be a band as young as we were, touring with Slipknot or OzFest or Taste of Chaos and some of these tours where we were very highly built. You know, we weren't one of the side-stage headliners, but we were, we had a non-rotating slot, you know, on OzFest, like, very, very late in the day. You know what I mean? It's like, that's a big, big deal. And I'd never even... I remember that. Yeah. And I never even

really took time to appreciate it because I just was constantly looking towards, like, how do we keep building? And building to me is still kind of what gets me high to some degree. Like, I love writing songs. I love building. And so, um, as much as I love touring, um, and I, I feel like I've adapted to being a frontman, I just enjoy the creative process of, like, making a record. Yes. And if people didn't know what my face looked like, and I could be in Slipton and have a mask on. I mean, now everybody knows that it look like anyways. But, you know, if I could go to the grocery store

and nobody ever recognized me, that would be my preference. That would be pretty sick, huh? Yeah. Man, how did the rest of the band take it? Sam Thane is kind of heads down. We're fucking playing OzFest. I think I was like a little bit of, not like a slave driver, but like always just pushing, pushing, pushing.

I think I created a stressful environment of like having everybody always focused on like how to get to the next level. Like instead of enjoying OzFest, It's like, all right, Osfest is going to help us get to this, like whatever that was. Like, you know, we'll finally be able to headline theaters after the Oz Fest, you know. So I was like, I was looking for that next thing. And I feel like I was such a unstoppable force in the way, like my persistence that I like, that sort of became something that like spilled over into the other guys, this mentality a little bit. And, you know, Phil and I really get to enjoy where we're at now.

I mean, we're on stage at Falkin this past year. And it's, you know, the festival sold out at 90,000 people. And we're playing like, you know, one of the last slots before the summer. goes down and it's like dang like let's like let's just enjoy this moment you know it's actually something i'm able to do now but i never did that my my earlier career it sucks that it takes you a damn their career to like to join that shit you know i know 20 years later 20 years later dude we're the same way it sucks yeah my god dude well how was uh and then you have a ocean between us that shit comes out i mean when i saw that like dude they're on they're number eight on

a billboard. This is a massive deal, dude. Well, I remember you guys, I don't know, I don't know the exact timeline, but like when you guys were working with Jerry Club at the time, and I talked to him and was like, you know, talking about, you know, how excited I am to see you guys progressing and stuff. And he goes, hey, it's really rare to find a band in this genre that you can picture being in the top 10. And you guys are one of them. And he was like, you know, I feel like suicide It's Hans as one of them. And just a band that can actually be as heavy as you want to be, but somehow have enough crossover to where people who normally don't like metal

are willing to buy and listen to these records. And that's not only great for, like, you guys as a band that you've been that way in your career, but it's amazing for the genre as a whole because it needs more bands like that. Because otherwise, you know, you're not getting any new audiences. Yeah, it's massive for bands, any heavy band that could have that crossover. Yeah. I was always fascinating, like, I just want to touch on this.

Like, what, what is that? Like, what is that, like, crossover heavy thing? Like, how, it's funny, I'm being in, I guess, and I'm not talking about, I'm, I don't talk about myself, but, you know, I'm in a band similar to that. Like, what, what is that? I don't know, because if you listen to an ocean between us, it's not a light record by any means. It's like, you know, it's got some diversity to it.

There might be, like, the closest thing to a ballad we've ever done on that record, which is still, like, not a ballad, you know? Yeah. But that wasn't even a single. So, you know, the singles on there, the first single was nothing left, which is really, I mean, the chorus barely even has singing. It's actually, I'm the one singing on that chorus, and I'm, like, yelling in pitch more or less, not actually even singing. Yeah. Because that was really before Josh was officially part of the band and stuff.

And so there's really nothing about it that's, like, technically accessible other than, I don't know, sometimes the right vibe just aligns. I don't know what it is, though. I mean, there's other bands that do it. They're just, I mean, Slipknot doesn't have to have a singing single to be. single. They've had some of their heaviest songs in their whole catalog are still their most popular. That's so, it's just one of those unexplainable things. Yeah.

It's weird. Yeah. It's like, oh, if you're a part of it, holy shit. Awesome, dude. Wow. Congrats. Yeah, there's an identifiable energy and emotion to it, but it's like, how do you put words to that? You know, I don't know.

Exactly. To me, yeah, you're right. I mean, it's just like, when I talk about it, it's like, well, there's an energy to it and an emotion to it and a realness to it. Whether you like or not, I think that's also why the bigger band, are tend to be more polarizing. There's just something about, like, that you're able to put, you know, it's like, I think that's what, you know,

and you guys are one of the biggest metalcore bands on the planet still. You know, is that that, I mean, and then hearing how the band first started, it's like, well, yeah, because it's you. It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not like you, but it's you, you know? I mean, it's hard for me to, like,

wrap my mind around because when I started the band, I felt like, this is going to be a hobby I'm going to pursue as long as I can. And that's why I felt like I'll put college on the background and everything else in the back, because I can't come back and do a hobby like this when I'm in my 40s, but I could do it now. And I'll take as far as it can go,

and then I'll be a big boy and go finish my college degree and go get a normal job and all that kind of stuff. And the genre as a whole changed. Yes. You know, our abilities as songwriters progressed like you were saying. And things just kept moving and they went way beyond what I ever. I mean, I heard a story one time that Poisoned the Well made $1,000 to play in San Diego. And I was like, oh my gosh, are you serious?

Like, they made $1,000? That's insane. And I was like, dude, that's crazy. Like, and I couldn't even wrap my mind around the fact that our genre could make $1,000. And then, you know, here we are like, you know what I mean? Opening bands, bands are opening for us who are literally getting five times that amount of money now. You know what I mean? So it's just wild.

Yeah. Holy shit, dude. How was it for, I mean, because you were so used to being in, like, the producer side of it. Did you struggle, like, kind of passing it over to, like, Adam D? Hey, you know, let's do your record and have someone else, you know, take. No, it was really the only way to force me to, like, be a vocalist, really, you know? Because like I mentioned on Shadows Our Security, I, I listen to that record musically, and I love it. But vocally, I hate it.

So it's like, well, I know I'm capable. of doing better than that, but I have to focus on being a vocalist to do that, which means I can't really be having the producer's mindset. And also, the rest of the guys at the time were just like, hey, you know, let's like do something different. I mean, you've like, we have self-produced or you have been

a part of the production team for the last two records and, you know, it's just time. And I didn't have any resistance to that. I look forward to it, yeah. Cool. Yeah. Well, obviously, I mean, it worked. Yeah. Especially for the, again, we go back to the era and, you know, Adam D. was his

killing as far as like production and recording and I'm not sure how much about Hanning he had in songwriting but yeah he was just the dude yeah for sure it was crazy to me as a vocalist being like oh wait so I can spend this entire day just working on one song like are you serious like it was like blew my mind I was like I don't have to track like five songs today I just can track one song and then if I don't like something I can come back in tomorrow and fix it he's like yeah that's how like you should have been doing your vocals this whole time and I was like wow you know so yeah I mean from a budgetary standpoint we also had the budget to allow for that you know whereas like uh frailwards collapse and shadows our security I mean

the budgets were so tight that uh not not because metal blade wasn't willing to like help us out or support us but it's just like you know I didn't even know like I thought okay if you spend um you know 10 grand on a record which is like uh um prior to mixing um forill words collapse we spent 10 grand on it, you know, and that included the studio time. And studio time back then was like $700 a day or something crazy, you know, and it's like, oh, dude, that means we've only got like, you know, however many days. And I just felt like that's just, I felt like recording had to be super stressful all the time and there had to be this really crazy deadline. Yeah. And then we did ocean between us. It's like, oh, we're, we're not in a rush. Like if I need to come back,

even, you know, even Adam D, went home and I, and I said, I don't like a couple of these lines. And he said, well, go ahead and punch him in yourself, you know, go ahead and fix it. You know, I was like, oh, I could like fix these myself while, Adam's home, chilling on his couch. You know what I mean? It's just a different recording mindset. Oh, wow. And that's actually when I got into some of the

early stages of like self-recording. And the record after that, I got really into like recording myself from there going forward. And our latest record, Shaped by Fire, I just recorded myself entirely. Of course, I take notes from, like Phil would say, hey, I don't like the way you did this line.

You know, can you give me an alternative take? And rather than be defensive, I just say, yeah, dude, if you don't like it, I want you to be proud of the record. And he takes the same feedback. If I say, hey, I don't like the tail end of that guitar right there. Like, can you give me another option? And we just, we're not like a robotic about it, but we're like, we try to like remove our emotions and just take the feedback.

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Well, I mean, and that song fucking got nominated for a Grammy. Like, that's fucking crazy. Yeah. It's a heavy song, dude. Yeah, it is.

Yeah. Like I said, we didn't choose the, like, the most accessible song in our catalog to be our single. And I thought that was a cool move that Metal Blade allowed us to do that, first of all. And then our fan base, like, you know, really latched onto it, too. Damn. That's a lot of success, dude. I mean, just being, like, a metalcore band. Yeah.

What a trip, Tim. And then we got the powerless rise, again, like, number 10 on the billboard. Band's like, you kind of, like, look what other bands are doing. you kind of peeking up for a little minute. They're, wow, they're on the billboard? What the fuck? It's crazy, man. And so, I mean, again, you had like the same team, you know, at MD and Shadow the Collin.

Yeah. Master mixer, dude. For sure. My God, dude. How was that, how was it torn for that record? Are we talking about the fall up, the powerless rise? Yes. So that one was the first time I ever sensed that we,

we like plateaued, but not necessarily like in a bad wave, but that like, okay, from ocean between us to the powerless rise, we were headlining theaters and they were, you know, mostly sold out everywhere and we did the next record. And oh, here we were. Okay, this is like that to me started to feel like, okay, we're closing in on like the ceiling for our genre, you know, which is like a theater headliner. Yes. I mean, it's really hard to picture our genre going above theaters. You have what, like arenas, I mean, basically. Yeah, it's tough. Yeah, it's like I don't really see. you know, our band getting to that level. And now, you know, now some of the bands in our genre have actually done that, which is absolutely mind-blowing. But that was the first time I saw, like, a plateau, which was cool for us to kind of recognize that, like, it doesn't matter how, like, you know, how much we push for that, like, super radio-friendly vibe,

or if we just make the record, like, dark and fast. And so we just decided to make the powerless rise. Like, if you listen to the track listing, it's, like, you know, opens with essentially almost like a death metal type song and it's like very very aggressive for like a record you hear on the top 10 and it's like well we our peers like a treu and stuff like that had kind of gone the opposite direction to where they almost went like purposefully very arena rock sounding to see if that could help them expand and i think maybe it did in the like scream oe crossover kind of

thing but for us we're just like well like i want to see how big we could possibly be while not compromising at all on how heavy we are and that was like kind of the statement we made with that record. It's great. I think that was accomplished. It's very, it's way more common for a band to change her sound for the wrong reasons and it just doesn't, those, I guess, aspirations don't happen. Yeah. And by the way, I'm not saying, Trey, you changed it for the wrong reasons. I mean, Brandon, he's an incredible vocalist and he probably just wanted to explore where he can go vocally. I get it. We've all been there. We, we put up a couple of stinkers. It's fine. No, but I just, you know, I recognize that our genre and all of our peers, we all went

in different directions. You guys all did in a crazy way. Yeah. And right around that time is when everybody sort of like polarized. And some bands that didn't work out. And they went from they previously were to some, like there were bands we were neck and neck with for so many years. And sometimes there was like this unsaid sense of competition, you know? Of course. And then after that record, it was like, no, like, there's only like five of us that survived this whole thing.

They're like still headlining theaters. And everybody else that we were neck and neck with, like they're just back down to doing clubs. You know what I mean? And it wasn't because like, it was. people were making wrong moves. It's just like the genre like really took off. And then like I said, it plateaued for a minute. And while that, while that happened, it's like with every genre.

Like when you look back at New Metal, you know, there's five to 10 bands tops that really can survive like the trends changing. And then everybody else kind of like just almost like disappeared. But those five bands like regardless of, you know, how unpopular New Metal got for a while, you know, you still had bands like Korn that would still do incredible numbers. Even when New Metal was like not cool. And obviously it's cool again now.

I know, it's weird. Full circle. Yeah, it seems, it's really special when you get lucky enough to be in, like, you know, that handful or two handfuls. Yeah. You, you, uh, transcend the trends, you know, or maybe even like your, like, you're, as, as you probably saw, like, sometimes you go even down, like, a little bit. But, but you've had such like a big break. It says even go down a little bit, it's fine. Yeah, of course.

I mean, if you're playing for 2,000 people and now you play for 1,500 people, I mean, you're still very fortunate. That's a fucking dream for. I mean, most bands, no matter in what fucking genre. But also a big change during that album cycle was the emergence of the Death Corps genre, which you guys were obviously very foundational in. So, like, the bands in our genre that were kind of like neck and neck with us, you know, our peers and stuff that we started to separate from, some of those bands were considered like the heavy end of metalcore.

And when Death Corps came out, it was like, oh, those these aren't even heavy anymore. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah, yeah. So it's like that's a part of the reason I think you guys came in And anybody who was like, trying to be heavy, but didn't really have like that, I don't know, just that magic to their songwriting, you know? It was like, well, like, here's the next generation, here we are.

And not that you guys are even that much younger than us, it's just that musically speaking, like, metalcore and then deathcore, you know what I mean? It's just kind of those are the generations, you know? Yeah, it's crazy. How long it took metalcore to be a thing. And I think, yeah, you're right, the same thing happened before, like, deathcore.

Once I came out, oh, that's just like the new, you know. And now I think what we're both experiences, seem like, you know, there's other, there's other versions now of metalcore, other versions of death core now in this era. So it's so cool to see, man, like what like, like the bands that are younger and like, oh, we listen to like you guys, like, you know, years. Yeah. There's definitely a second wave of metalcore that's very different, you know, you listen to like wage wars, an example, they're considered a metalcore band and you listen to Asley dying, and we sound very different. You know, they're probably tuned like a fifth

lower than we are, you know what I mean? And yeah. they have a whole modern twist to it. And so, like, their fan base, their fan base might recognize our name, but they, you know, we're actually new to their fan base, and they're new to our fan base, and it's such a bizarre thing, you know?

I know, it's like your, it's like your guys without even trying or helping each other. Yeah. You know, it's cool. You learn when you get older, like, man, why don't we just fucking help each other, man? For sure. You know, it's just fucking build a whole genre

as big as we can, because no one can do it alone, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And then, well, Now we're at Awakened, you know, um, it sounds, uh, very similar to like, like, like the last record. I could get being in like a, that kind of being, having some experience in a heavily torn band. Like you, after your fourth record, you get kind of fucking tired.

You know, like it seems like you're just trying to fucking power through. Yeah. You know? Well, I think when we wrote Awakened, um, the internal communication for us was the most separated, Not because we really had a lot of fights or anything like that. It's just kind of like, you know, we got in the point where we're like emailing each other back and forth demos instead of getting together in a rehearsal space. And, you know, like I tracked vocals at my own studio while the rest of the guys went out to Colorado to track the rest of everything. And it was just kind of like we started to kind of feel like we were like coasting because, you know, we've done this so many times.

It's like, all right, well, we can just, you know, let's each do our own. each do this how we prefer individually instead of like coming together as a unit. And I still think the record came out great. I'm still really proud of it. But that was kind of the beginning of us like each kind of individually living in our own worlds. And that would not even just me, but I mean all five of us. And that kind of stuck for a long time. Like regardless of my arrest, which was shortly after awakened, everybody kind of started just to like, you know, whatever personality traits they had that were the strongest.

they kind of withdrew into those and became their own individual. And there really wasn't a sense of like, in the earlier days, you know, for better or worse, like a lot of bands allow somebody to have a position of leadership to sort of be like, hey, I think from a big picture strategy standpoint, this is where the ship is going, right? And, you know, I didn't do that anymore and nobody else really picked that, picked up the reins on that either. And so we just kind of spread out, you know. Yeah, you need that leadership, you know. What? Why do you think that happened?

I think that I was in a really comfortable place in life and just became interested in, you know, like I got really, really into fitness, but obviously in like an unhealthy kind of mindset and just like other hobbies in my life, you know, like I was single for a little while and was like interested in, you know,

just like dating and like all that kind of stuff again for the first time in a very, very long time. And so I think just meant, mentally, like I was just like, oh, like this ship just sort of seems to be going. It just seems to be coasting. Everything has kind of plateaued. And there's like, I don't want to put like a lot of stress into it because it just kind of, it does what it does. You know, we have band management and everything just is going to just whether I, whether I steal,

steer the ship personally or not, it's going somewhere. And so I might as well just do the things that I personally enjoy. And I kind of withdrew into like more of a selfish mindset. Yeah, it sounds like, yeah, that, that selfish mindset kind of, how, how. During exactly that time period, was it like how old were the guys and how old were you? I was 32 at the time. I think when it came out, I was 31 and then shortly turned 32. Oh, dude, late 20s, early 30s suck.

Everyone, especially when in a band, everyone's going through life at their own pace. And whenever they are, they just kind of go deeper into that. It's nuts, dude. Well, it's like we're not kids. It's like who are our adult identities, you know? Yeah. And we like, we're arrogant enough to think, oh, I got it all figured out. So I know who I want to be as an adult.

But there's still, you know, some, uh, some testing the waters to figure out, you know. Yeah, man. It sucks, dude. And from a, from an outsider perspective, looking in, it kind of seems also you're, like, struggling with, like, you know, what do I believe as far as, like, religion and spirituality? Like it seems like you're like I mean hence like their record's called Awaken you know what does Awaken mean to you Yeah and it was like on the nose for me like I wasn't trying to hide anything I tried to make the album title very much on the nose a lot of the lyrics were very much Like easy to there there's a poetic nature to the way I try to write lyrics because you know otherwise

They shouldn't you know I think lyrics should always have a poetic nature to him but yeah I wanted to make sure anybody reading it could be like oh I'm pretty sure I know what he's talking about here and um You know, I had spent all my 20s very, very involved in, like, Christian theology. I was actually like a theology student. Philosophy in Religious Studies was a bachelor's degree I got. And so the previous year before Awaken, I had finished my degree in religious studies. And during that process of trying to, like, defend that point of view, which was the primary reason that I, like, dug so deeply into it, I realize I can't in good conscience defend some of these beliefs because, you know, I know too much now. You know what I mean?

And it was like this kind of, okay, well, this reshapes what it is that I believe. And I think looking back, there's that shock of my whole moral system being built on because God told me so. And then not, oh, if that's not the case, then like, what do I build my life on now? and I feel like that's actually a dangerous thing about somebody who grows up entirely, like, too religious, so to speak, is that their whole framework is based off of because God told me so. But there are actually great other reasons to, you know, to have morality. And so for me, like, if I were to describe it now, I'm not like anti-spiritual now or anything like that. In fact, like with a lot of people who are Christians, they say to me, you know, oh, you know, what do we believe? And I say, you might not consider me a Christian, but I think we're on the same team with a lot of.

of these things. I don't think we're actually as far apart as you might think we are. Yes. And what I consider myself or somebody else might consider me, like, I don't even get into those terms. It's just like, foundationally, I think that we've all suffered and felt pain. And if we don't want that in our lives, you know, we should be able to say to another person, like, hey, how can I help you, like prevent this suffering in your life? You know, like, that true, like, deep compassion. That's one of the things I think incarceration does for people that are at least able to be mindful of that as they say, hey, like, I've caused other people a lot of pain. I'm in here feeling a lot of pain because of how separated I am from my loved ones in society.

I don't want anybody else to have to experience this kind of pain. I don't ever want to inflict that kind of pain on somebody else. And it's really that just that sense of compassion that I think morality can be built off of. And then, you know, if somebody wants to, in addition to that, say, you know, and I believe, you know, that God, God wants a, to live this way. You know, I believe that when Jesus talked about serving the poor and the orphans and visiting people in prisons, I think he was talking about the outcast

of society and helping them. And like, those kinds of principles are really beautiful once you also understand your own individual suffering and pain process and how that, that should really be the driving force. Yes, and we all have a different process too. Yeah. Especially, I mean, and for

people that don't know, you weren't, you're not dabbing and being a Christian. You like, as you said, you studied it. Yeah. And then you have this whole new, like you have a very wide perspective, you know, and that's a, that's also like, again, like late 20s, really, that's a hard age. And then when your whole, basically, maybe like you could say like your whole foundation is like, well, who am I now? If I, if I don't, I don't believe this. And then you have a record, record called Awaken. You know, it's like that's a, that's a struggle, man. And I could only assume that it just makes

you feel very alone. And then when you're, when you're in a band, trying to explain this when the only few people in your life that start to do this sounds like y'all you're just making a record but when that happens it's it's happened to me you feel very alone

and you do go to pretty dark places which I personally have you know like because I mean your whole especially if you're dealing with like abandonment issues and your band goes like this it's not you you go into other things and sounds like you know you were struggling with uh finding spirituality after you know this doing a studying of being a being a Christian and then now

you're as you said you like you get have you get you start doing things in an unhealthy way for you you you seem to really pick up bodybuilding and me being outside my dude tim's being big like I I could tell yeah you know like you start it turns into like a addiction and then you don't have your fucking foundation You don't have your spiritual foundation and then you don't have your band foundation, which is even just as strong as being spiritual because you're you're bounded by by music and and your soul. So I can only imagine like, you know, where did your. So obviously you're in bodybuilding. You're trying to figure out who you are. Like where was your mind at, Tim, where like, you know, like you're going to the gym. You barely put out this fucking record, which I know how that is. Yeah. And then, and then to you being incarcerated,

like what, like, what was, what was your thought process like? Um, I mean, there's a lot of different areas there. So,

I mean, leading up to my incarceration, um, you know, when, when my world sort of fell apart, like, you know,

um, you have this person you talk to every day, you know, uh, some people say it's God, you know, I mean, another religion might have a different name for it,

you know, whatever. And some of you wake up and you spend, however many minutes or hours in the morning talking to this person and all of a sudden this person is not a part of your life anymore so you like lost your your literal like like best friend you know and then you've also I've also lost that deep connection with my bandmates and I went through a divorce and you know everything was changing in my life um and what I didn't know what was really important to me at that time but I think and some of this stuff I'm not even really able to technically talk about so

I'll just say it, say in these terms that for any person who's, let's just say a person is a father and they're confused about what really matters to them in life, it becomes obvious to them that everything else in their life can change, but being a father is still their identity, it's still what's most important to them. And so a father's relationship with his children, if everything else in his life changes and goes away, that's the one thing he wants to protect above all things. And so my mindset was, I don't care what changes or goes differently in my life, but I want to maintain what's most important to me and almost like the singular fixation on what was most important to me, regardless of how that affected anything else in the world. Yeah.

I mean, I know it's a little bit vague, but that's the best I can really talk about it. Yeah, yeah. And then, obviously, fast forward, you know, shit, like all we have is outsiders is what we see on TV. you're like the person that we least expect that I've shared a bus with you in all all over Europe damn near across the ocean and world you know I know I know who you are Tim and I had a great moment with you so I'm like I'm sitting back with my parents and watching national television there's and there's Tim and depending on obviously no matter only you fucking know what exactly would happen in like a very tight circle but but but but when when you're in outside there is different mindsets that that you could approach that is you know okay he he fucked up or you know what's what's wrong on tim you know i i saw uh you know i just saw like a dude in his early 30s and he was broken for all all the reasons that you just pretty much laid out on on the table very very very very clearly and people could go listen to his whole thing again listen

i mean it's very clear you were very alone and we're not always I'm like, man, what, what happened to Tim? Like, like, holy shit. But I knew, I knew who you were just based on the time I spent with you. You know, I've had a long thought process. Before this conversation, exactly what I, I think of you, which why, you know, we're, you know, we're talking. And that was, like, what was, like, Tim, like, what was that like, man? I mean, I never been incarcerated.

What was that like for you? Yeah. I mean, I think that my thinking was so isolated into my own mind and, like, disconnected from my support system that I didn't really even fathom or realize how much I had lost myself and who, the core of who I really was. Like, you know, it's like I was this one person for most of my life. And then for this period of time, you know, I had this very isolated different type of mindset. and then have since returned to being, you know, much of who I was the earlier part of my life. Plus, of course, the added perspective of everything I went through.

But when I lost my sense of, like, you know, I don't know. I don't know how to describe it. I said, like, I lost myself. I lost my way. And I sat there in a cell being like, how did I become this person? This is like, it kind of blew my own mind. You know what I mean? And it's like as the mental cloud kind of like the fog like went away and I could see clearly it's just like there's so obviously a thousand better ways that I could have, you know, gone through a divorce or a thousand better ways that if I wanted to be, you know, close with my family or if I felt that that burning of a father who felt, you know, I think I can talk about vaguely speaking, you know, any of.

father who loses his children, there's a burning feeling of just like, you know, I'll do anything to fix this or to make this right or to maintain this relationship, you know. But just because you feel like you would be willing to do anything to maintain what matters to you the most in the world, it doesn't mean that you showed her those are your best options. And it's so clearly sitting there thinking in a cell, like, wow, I could have handled this a thousand in different ways and like the fact that in my mindset, I thought at the time this was the best way to handle the situation.

Like it blew my own mind. It's like how did I even think that? Like, and it just was shocking, you know. And there's really no defense or no way to, to take away what I did other than that, you know, thankfully there was actually no true physical harm of any kind, you know, and I think that, and knowing that I have,

I'm relatively young. I have the rest of my life to demonstrate to myself beyond other people, you know, that that is a very isolated, dark thought process in my life. And if that is an isolated, dark thought process over the course of 30, 40, 50 years, you'll see that.

But I can't prove that to anybody, you know, coming out of prison, be like, hey, guys, I'm changed. I'm good, you know? Yes. You know, they have to say, hey, here's who you were for 32 years. Here's this dark period of your life.

And here's who you are for the next 20. I have at least 20 years until most people in this world are willing to be like, you know what? Maybe he really did change. Maybe incarceration really did, like, in one of those rare instances where incarceration actually helped an individual, you know? Maybe I'm one of those rare cases, you know, but I have 20 years to prove that. And so I'm not in a rush other than to be myself and let people see that slowly over time.

And, yeah, I mean, I hate talking about it in any kind of contextual way because I feel like it might come across like I'm giving excuse. I'm not. I'm just telling people the context under which these things happened. That's it. Yeah. And it's such a terrible time for you because you were already, it seems like you didn't have a foundation like you could talk to someone to help you with their thought process is. And now like you're, you have no choice but but to be alone with yourself. You're literally in a fucking cell. All you have is you when your feelings and your thoughts and all your unprocessed feelings you have when you're five years old and like you all all you have so there's plenty of time to

to to process stuff um like were you thinking about your your band members and what and what and what they were dealing with um i mean i did spend a lot of time before my sentencing uh trying to communicate with them to some degree to say hey guys like i won't be able to communicate when i'm gone but i i can communicate now i'd love to sit down face to face with you guys and talk There was a brief conversation that I had with Jordan during that time. And, you know, it was during a very, like, traumatic time, it was just like an emotional sort of, like, blur to me. And it was very short.

And, you know, so I'm not saying that there was absolutely no communication at all. There was, I mean, I actually, I couldn't even tell you the conversation because it was pretty short. And it was, like, right after some of the events while I was on house rest waiting my sentencing. and stuff. And, you know, I think the essence of what he wanted to say was, hey, I showed up. Like, I don't have anything to say. I don't even really know how to process this. But I showed up to like, you know, to be here for a second. And then after that, he never really talked to me ever again, including largely after my incarceration, when we were performing together as a band, we never really, you know, addressed or talked about it between him and I, you know. And so it's weird

after all these years. I haven't talked to Jordan in like over a couple years now. And I think in the aftermath of that, he's like, I want to perform in the band again, but I think when it actually came time

to it, I don't know if he knew how to process not just things with me, but just so many things in his life. And some people's trauma response is to shut down and they just avoid. And I think that's largely been his response.

and other people they call like anxious attachment where they just like they want to talk about it constantly and I'm probably more so closer to that side to where it's like I'm never afraid to talk about something I may stumble on my words I may not have I may not even be able to articulate perfectly

but I will keep trying and trying and trying you know so we were very very different in that regard yeah I mean your band became more of how they yeah everyone especially processing like that so something so bizarre yeah they're just going to i mean the only thing they could really do is like okay we're it's not going to talk to him but obviously there is there is some uh there is a point where like they started to come back around you know and and how and how was that for for you well so for me

it was different story with everybody and i'll just give two very polar opposite examples jordan's whole thing was to be avoidant you know to like if i after my incarceration I spent a year working as a case manager at addiction treatment facility doing group therapy as well and stuff like that and during that time I reached out to Jordan many times I'd reach out to him like two and a half months later

he'd say oh by the way I got your message just calling you back but then we wouldn't really talk to this so weird is this really weird avoidant situation where I just like I don't know where he sits and then on the other end of the spectrum you had Phil who's a very direct communicator and I never have to worry about him

you know, being mysterious, he just said me, hey, dude, I'm just one letting you know that, like, when I think about you and what you've gone through, I'm really saddened by it, and I'm embarrassed to be associated with you. And, you know, that's not something I'm sure that I can ever get past. And that was the first conversation, Phil had with me when I, you know, when I reached out to him after my incarceration. And I said, dude, thank you so much for being so direct, because that is the best way you can handle the situation from my perspective.

That's somebody who's not avoidant. And I said, if we have any hope of working through this, we'll work through it. And if it doesn't, it doesn't work. Like, I know where you stand, you know? And so when he said that to me, he wasn't ready to talk. And he said, you know, I'll let you know in the future if I am. And, you know, six months later, however many months later,

he said, okay, I'm willing to sit down and have lunch with you. No promises, nothing, but just, I'll have lunch with you. And we sat down, we had lunch. And then we talked a little bit more. And again, he said, yeah, I still have a lot of hard feelings to work through. And here they are, A, B, C, D, E, you know, like, just listed them out. And we were able to talk about them, and that was healing, you know.

And we still weren't like, all right, let's get together and play music again. But that was, like, a step toward healing. And I think healing needs to happen regardless of if I play music with anybody, you know. So to some degree, I would say to Jordan, like, hey, dude, regardless of our past as musicians, just as two human beings, like, you know, the conversations that can happen that can help us heal, I think are really beneficial for both of us, even outside the world of music. You know, and so, anyway, those are two, like, different examples. The other guys kind of sat somewhere in between.

And I think it's totally fine to Phil had enough conversation with me, and he said, hey, I've worked through a lot of my feelings. You know, I'm ready to do this. And I think it's totally fine for some other guys to say that, you know, like where Nick sat is that I've gotten all my feelings out and I still don't feel better. I still don't feel like I fully have a connection and a trust with you. And I may never, ever gain that. And so the interaction between us is always going to have tension to it forever.

So I just don't think this is a good situation for us. And I respect that. You know, there's nothing wrong with that either. And so each of the guys, when I came back, had to do whatever was right for them. Yeah. And eventually you did, you did eventually come to an agreement that, okay, we're all going to sit down. and talk yeah you know you know you know that was that was rough to watch because you could just see like like the hurt yeah you see how hurt everybody is yeah i mean nick is on this on his face and uh and i think

me phil will have a lot in common and i could tell how hurt he was just by looking at him only because i i he's like we're both like guitar players and we have a certain deep connection with with our singers and stuff i i kind of tell like you're definitely the most affected, you know. But it's crazy that you guys all sat and talked. Yeah. It's crazy. And we hadn't done the album at that point. We hadn't worked out all the details.

We just, you know, we felt like there was some criticism from people saying, hey, it's weird to me that you guys just put out one song and then didn't address the elephant in the room. And we said, well, dude, we don't know how to do it. Like, there's not like a statement we can give as a band. So we're just going to put a camera up, you know. It's like very emotional to think back. on but it's like you know just gonna be raw because healing takes a lot of years it takes years man you're right you know for for all the guys and you have just all this

history with each other you know you got you guys you're we're best friends at some point you know it's just just just just just playing music and now and now you're at a table just like talk like talking about something that raw and crazy yeah I think there's a certain expectation of people when they come out of incarcerated you put them in a very, very traumatic situation and you say, all right, I want you to go be locked up and treated like an animal for, you know, three years in state prison. And then I want you to come out and just, just act and be and convince everybody close to you that you are healed in every single way. It's like, that's not possible. You know, like, I'm not going to sit here before my bandmates

and say, hey, guys, I did my time. And because I did my time, I'm healed in every single possible way. I have no more kinks to work out in my life. Like, that's just not, Our system is not rehabilitative, you know, so rehabilitation is possible, but it's from the love of friends and family and people who are close. And that's why, you know, I'm really big into the post-incarceration process. I have, you know, I work with a nonprofit that I help co-found because of that. Because I think that's where the rehabilitation really truly begins is not until somebody's actually out on parole. Wow. Yeah.

Yeah, we don't even know what that process is. You know, how like, like, the success rate is so low when someone gets out of prison and, like, it's so low. And you, I mean, you've probably been talking to people and working with people about that, you know. And you're kind of, Tim, you're a very rare case, you know. I mean, there's guys, you know, that will struggle in the system their whole lives. You know, there's the, you know, two-thirds recidivism rate of guys that are going to end up going back. And the irony of those statistics is that because of those statistics, you know, we think that that everybody is a repeat offender, but it actually goes into classifications of like what

type of crime it was and all these types of things. Yes. You know, and then so then with California, as an example, we have overpopulated prisons. And so the federal government mandated that California lower the prison population to be more humane incarceration conditions. And so they said, oh, well, you know, we're going to take people that have repeat drug offenses, and we're going to, like, lower their sentence and let them out sooner because those are just smaller, more minor offenses.

And they are, actually. I mean, I'm actually in support of reshaping the way we handle drug-related cases in our country. But in terms of statistically, by far the most likely to reoffend. So that's where some of those two-thirds numbers come from, right? Two-thirds of people are going to go back or be re-arrested. But when you take a case like mine, the statistical likelihood of, you know, of there ever being a reoffence in the entire lifetime of an individual is, you know, it's amongst the absolute lowest.

So we're not actually talking about like apples to apples when we talk about these kinds of things. Yes. But I understand that I'm still lumped in with that crowd of just overall, the overall umbrella of incarcerated individuals, you know. And so, you know, if you have somebody who comes from a gang life background and you put them right back out in the same community they came from, they're more scared of their big homey in their neighborhood than they are at the cops. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. I mean, if I grew up in, you know, like a lot of the Mexican

gang guys that I play basketball with, right? A lot of those guys, when they get back on the street, like whoever the big dog in their neighborhood was, calling the shots, if he said, hey, I need you to go rob this liquor store and you don't go rob that liquor store, you're in way more trouble than if you get caught by the cops. You know what I mean? So, yeah, like it's a tough situation. So that's where a lot of recidivism comes from. Wow. well okay so now we're uh you know you guys have the discussion you know at what point we're like okay that we're gonna play we're gonna play music let's let's actually do like a record um so we originally got back together and said let's do one song and just see if it feels right or not and we did my

own grave and um that song not only um like was very successful like commercially, but it was really easy to write. It was like, it just came out. It was just, you know, there wasn't, there wasn't like negative creative tension. I tried things for the first time ever that I'd never done in my whole life. I've always written Nasla Nang lyrics

and just when I was done, I was done. And I put them on the record. I sent the lyrics to everybody before I was finished with them and said, hey, guys, here's what I want to write about. This is what the song is. And like, go ahead and take a look at it. You know, if there's things you think I should change, like, let me know.

That was like a vulnerable, new place for me. I'd never done that with the song before. And so it just came out and it felt good. And then we said, okay, let's do another batch of songs and then we'll work towards, you know, eventually doing a record. And everything felt good. And so musically, everything felt good. But I think that the aftermath of that, it's like, okay, while we're working on music, that feels good, you know, but when we've got to talk about, you know, just practical things like living on the road together and and and oddly enough like I wasn't really the person that was particularly difficult to live with on the road like I you know I just like hey does my microphone work like I don't you

know I don't need special tech I don't need like I don't need all you know special backstage things I just like yeah can I get some water preferably not cold and a microphone that works and but there are tensions that happen on the road with other members and if you add those tensions to also things unresolved with with me it's like we can be distracted working on the music music for a while. And that gives us something positive to sink our teeth into. But that doesn't mean that, you know, all the members have overcome their feelings towards my past and what I put them through. And so I caused them a lot of pain that they're still dealing with. And then on top of that, they have the new pains of just little minor things that all bands buttheads with on the road. You know what I mean? And, you know, I thought that that in the case of Nick, that's, you know, I can't speak for him. But I think to some degree, put all that together. And it's just like, you know guys this seemed like a great idea at first but it's just it's just not the right fit for me and i think there's a lot to respect about that it's just him saying i tried i put forth all my effort to like want to make this work and it now that i've like explored it for a year it just

isn't really what i want and that's you know i i respect that like a lot i don't think there needs to be um you know this this narrative uh sometimes people want to say is that if a guy leaves a band it's because they hate each other or something like that you know what i mean I think he has things between him and I that are unresolved that he, you know, may need to face, whether it's with me directly or in his personal therapy or like, whatever it is. And I have things that I need to address. But like those aren't because we hate each other. Those are just because it's a very complex situation.

And healing, like I mentioned before, it just takes years. It's not something you can, like, fast track. Yeah, it takes years. I mean, you know, and you guys, you know, came back and you have like your first show in San Diego sold out a minute you put out this song that's still like your number one stream song yeah it's it's I mean as you say it was a commercial success massive song um and you know I watched all your tour vlogs you guys went to you know I'm not sure where you guys did this you guys went to Asia first which it for those those you're watching listening

that's it's the most rewarding it's fun but it's a very grueling schedule I'm not sure why you guys did that first no no that's the first like uh vlog that we did, but we, that was actually, um, it was actually our last thing we did before the pandemic. So, so, okay, great. Yeah. Okay, great. We had the most footage of that to put together.

Good. You know, like, why, why are they doing that first? That schedule is fucking nuts, dude. No, no, no. Oh, holy shit. I mean, from an outsider, it looks like, it looked like you guys were having a good time. Yeah, and there were good times. And there's still, I don't look back on the, the, when I say the classic lineup

reunion tour, right, as an early, if that's what you want to call it, I don't look back on that with any sort of animosity or frustration. I recognize that, you know, everybody tried in their own way to, like, make that work the best that they could. And really, one thing, also another misconception is that, is that, you know, the other guys that left, it was related to that. It's actually, Nick left related to some of the original unresolved things between myself or between him and Phil or between him and whatever.

And he can only speak for that himself. Like, just things that he felt like, you know what, guys, I tried. this just wasn't a good fit for me. But then the other guys, when the pandemic started, Jordan just sort of like went into isolation. And that's not an uncommon coping thing, you know, for people out there, so I'm not talking trash anyway. That's just how he chose to handle it is just to isolate, cut himself off,

really not communicate. And after a couple years of not communicating, which is really going into the pandemic, Jordan was excited about future tours. You know, if we were going to work on, on future singles, we weren't quite ready for a new album yet. We're like, oh, let's do some future singles. Let's do some special releases.

He was on board of all that kind of stuff. Everything he was on board with. And he was actually kind of taking the reins on like, oh, I want to help out more with like the band's merch and blah, blah, blah. And then the pandemic hit. And, you know, people were in a different emotional space than they were. And I don't know, it could be coincidence or not, but like, you know, a month or so into that, he just shut off communication.

And that's really like where that comes from. And that's not related to he wasn't, Coming to us saying, like, I have unresolved tension, and I don't like this band. There was never an argument. There was never any of that. When you don't talk to somebody for more than two years, you just kind of move forward, you know?

So that's a different situation. And then the last one was Josh, who just wanted to play with Spirit Box. And he said, you know, I helped them work on some new songs. And I just really had a good time. And I feel like they asked me if I would do some tours with them. They conflict with the Azla Dying schedule. I can't really do both.

And I just, I want to go do this. It sounds fun to me. And I said, dude, like, I want you to be happy. happy. Like how how could I not like first of all he's not asking my permission you know what I mean? But uh, you know, how could I not like be in approval of that?

Yeah. Yeah. Everyone went their own direction. It sounds like, you know, especially after like a pandemic. Yeah. You know, like everyone's going to take that as man. Yeah, your situation is so complex and then you throw on a, it's going on a pandemic. Yeah. And I think that when you look at the catalog of music we have, Phil and I are the most uniquely connected overall. Josh was also a songwriter.

So if there was a songwriting trio, would be Phil, Josh and I, but Josh didn't start writing until after an ocean between us because that was already recorded. And I even wrote the melodies on that and everything. So if you look at the catalog as a whole, Phil and I are the most uniquely connected to that because we're responsible for almost everything in that catalog, right?

And so you look at the future of our band. It's like, well, who's going to look at the future and look back at the past and just have the most attachment to this? It's the guys that created it the most. You know, and that's really where Phil and I are as like friends and then guys running a business together, technically speaking. It's like, hey, dude, like, let's just like have good communication. Let's just enjoy the process, like write songs, you know, be able to celebrate for the first time ever. Go play a large festival, like I mentioned earlier, like a Valkan festival, be able to be on stage, be like, wow, look at what this catalog has given us, this opportunity to play for these crowds, you know, on another continent.

Like, that's something that Phil and I did this past summer that we've just, never done and it's it's uh it feels good to be connected to that and not just be connected to that alone like it's it's phil and i together yeah you guys have so much history and it's really cool to see phil like just work out i mean that that's that's stuff you only do alone so the fact he did like the work alone you know handle processed feelings whatever you had to process and just grow you know and be able to to talk with you after such a traumatic time you know it's that's pretty special guy man yeah and there's a common thread between phil and i um that's not

I don't actually know for each of the guys individually but I do know that this is common for Phil and I's that we both are big fans of therapy and whether I don't know Phil's that's obviously like a very sensitive subject I'm not going to get into whatever he

I don't know if he goes weekly or if he goes once a mother or whatever but he at least recognizes the value of it and has brought up the value of it and we've done therapy sessions together to like talk about some of the stuff that you know Phil and I want to work through and we believe

that process. And so it fits in line with his like non-avoidance. You know, his just like, I'm going to say what's on my mind. We either work through it or we don't, but at least it's out there, right? You know, so we share that. And I think as somebody like previously incarcerated that, I mean, that's absolutely mandatory for anybody who's been through. When you incarcerated an individual, you're not sending them to go, you know, just think about your thoughts in a cell and just, you know, be able to focus, no, like, you're, you know, you're worried about your, your physical safety at times, you're emotionally distressed being torn away from your family and everybody. You know, you're treated by the average correctional officer treats you like less than human.

You know what I mean? Like, you know, just total disdain for your existence. You know what I mean? It is the opposite of a therapeutic environment. So I think that coming out of incarceration, you're, you're subjecting people to a new form of trauma in addition to whatever trauma was in their background that led them to the unclear thinking, you know, that was part of their. And so I'm a big believer that people that were previously incarcerated need to be an ongoing therapy.

And then I want to express to the public that when you incarcerated an individual, and some people believe all these guys deserve this. So I'm not saying this is an oh, poor me situation. But you're not just saying, hey, I want you to be out of the public eye for three years or whatever. You're saying, I want you to go in there and witness your friends getting stabbed. I want you to go in there and be. mandatorily required to participate in riots. I want you to go in there and, you know, basically have just a roller coaster of different things that you go through in addition to being locked away from the rest of the world for a few years. And that's something that if we're going to do that to

people, at least recognize that's what we're doing to them. Let's not just like pretend that we just, you know, we're just going to send this guy on vacation for a few years. No, no, we, we sentence them to all these other unofficial things that aren't part of the true sentencing. And if we're going to give them those those parts of the sentence let's give them something in the aftermath to make them productive members of society again yeah yeah the people have no idea what like what goes on there yeah you know it's a it's like a weird a weird thing you know like you know people obviously you have a conflict situation and like you didn't go to like a cancellation you went to like people like wanted to like annihilate you like it's just like but that makes no sense because okay

like let's say someone thinks timid is a bad person okay cool like they're right but then you want them to go through that what kind of person that does that make you yeah you know it's like it's like this it doesn't really make any sense well and and i understand there's people that you know hey you deserve worse than the sentence you got i actually understand that perspective because i when i look back at the person i was for that period of my life that dark path that i went down i don't like that person either right so i don't look back on that person fondly and think like oh let's just have compassion and like, let's just give that guy an easy sentence, right? And some people say, oh, well, you know, he only did three years in state prison.

He should have done, you know, more than 10. Sure. And it's like, okay, I understand that. But like when my release date was given to me, I wasn't going to go to the game. Like, you know what? I'm going to make the rest of society happy. So, you know what, just go ahead and cancel my release date. I'm going back in.

Like, that's just, that's not where I'm at as a person. You know, I'm thinking, okay, if I want to undo some of the hurt that I've caused, the best way I can do that is by becoming, a productive member of society and moving forward from this, healing myself and helping other people in the process. And I think that I've shown that, hey, I don't spend, you know, 80 hours a week working for my nonprofit, so I'm not going to try to, like, be insincere. But I do spend weekly time working with the nonprofit that I helped start.

And I do personally just help other people off the record, you know, just like situations where it's like these guys were previously incarcerated and I want to help them. heal and become productive members of society. And so I think that I'm showing slowly over time that I'm the real deal. And if somebody doubts that, that's fine. It's very reasonable to doubt like, oh, he's just saying that because he wants a chance to play music again or he's just doing that. Whatever they think my motivation is, that's fine. Just they got to sit back and watch and see what happens in 20 years, right?

You know, I mean, that's really all I can really do. Yeah. And it's crazy, like, it must be such a trip for you because then you come out and then you're hanging out with the guys in the band again and then like the fan base like welcome you guys that shocked to all of us yeah

like I was like it was fucking massive dude like the show's all over the country but we're just just selling out like damn they're like the fans to me I'm always like the fans have the say you know and like if your fans welcomed you and obviously I mean just look I mean you

you can't lie about about those numbers numbers don't lie and see how it's Stoke people were to see you guys. I'm like, damn, that's fucking nuts, dude. Like, I assume you guys were just shocked. Well, yeah, I mean, I think the proof of how shocked we were is that the original rooms that we announced were 500 cap rooms, roughly speaking, you know, 500, 700, you know, some of the smaller cities down to like even 300. Because we thought this is an intimate, like, reintroduction to the public, right? And those got upgraded one time to, you know, a thousand caps.

venues. And they said, okay, well, we'll basically double the size. And they got upgraded again to a thousand. And then at that point, those sold out within another week. And some of the shows we played in Germany for our first tour back were literally 4,500 people as a headliner in Germany. And we'd previously never really headlined for more than like 3,000. You know what I mean? So it was like this like insane process where every few weeks we were changing the venue. And I mean, I have no idea logistically how that even worked. Our booking agent is, is America. worker because he was able to switch venues you know and and in the post post-COVID world i mean you couldn't get venue holds like that anymore so it was i know i mean all of these weird little things do

like the fact that it like worked out that way how was that for for you i mean it has i mean to have a point in your life where you're like so isolated and then now you're you're you're out and like this get this massive welcome from people like all of the world essentially well it's different for each country because I think that within Germany or mainland Europe as a whole, their mindset is we hate what Tim did, but we believe that he's done his time. And he appears to be on a good path now, and unless he shows us a reason to doubt that, we're going to give him a second chance because they have this, you've done your time mentality, right? And in the U.S. we're a little bit more, you know, there's a little bit more like pure pressure around like the concepts of like, virtue signaling and like, you know, like, oh, like, you supported this, that, that means, that implies about you, because you went to the Azlodon concert, that implies that you

have poor moral character in all these other areas. And so, that's just not, like, one thing does not necessitate the other, right? So it's like, yeah, I mean, do, most of the bands I grew up listening to, like, if you look at some of the people in the band, like, they're not people I would want to have over for dinner, you know, but like, you know, I mean, you know, the biggest band in the world when I was a kid, I was Guns and Roses, but like, everybody, in the world knows, nobody wants to invite Axel Rose over for dinner. He's, like, he's known, he's well known as being, you know, a giant pain in the ass to most people. And I'm not saying the deal that I actually don't know him personally. But in terms of the reputation that precedes him,

that's how he's known. But they were still the biggest man in the world when I was a kid. And when a song of theirs comes on the radio, I'm not like morally torn as to like, oh, I got to, granted, it's not the same thing. We're not comparing apples to apples. But like, I think that in the US, somebody saying, you know, if you listen to Asla Dying or you go to one of their concerts, that means you're supporting these things. No, because I'm so against these things. Personally, I'm spending the rest of my life against these things trying to undo the hurt that I've caused. So there's no way by supporting me or Azale-dine that you're supporting anything in the world of what I did. Like, I mean, here I am this many, almost 10 years later, I'm still talking about how much I hate what I did and how much I want to undo what I did.

Yeah. You know, it's, it's, I think what people want to see from you, which you literally have like a lyric, which, you know, my, I put on. on your new record, a shape by fire, and listen to my own grave, blinded it by, blinded by the pain, blinded by the selfishness. And the fact that you own up to that is, I think, it's pretty huge. Real quick, and I think it'll be time to squash it.

I don't know if I should say his name, but we were on tour with the band this past month, and got to talk about Mitch, and he's just having a really deep conversation. he said man that was so I thought that was so selfish what what that guy did to you I mean I mean I thought you guys were gonna blow up

and like I we're going on 10 years and I never once thought about that situation in a selfish way and like I was like damn that was fucking selfish of him dude like he affected all of our lives and he of damn there ruined it you know and um you know we never almost didn't even recover from it that's a very selfish act

and obviously he didn't he doesn't have like the opportunity, I guess you could say, to fix that, you know, and you do. And it's awesome to actually see you doing that, you know, because I've seen, you know, people not even have that opportunity to actually fix that. So it's cool that, you know, things like this, you're actually coming on here and talking about. I think that's a big act of owning it. And it's huge. Yeah, I mean, there's no other way around it than to own it.

I mean, when people get really upset about me or the fact that I'm, able to do music again and they just want to unload about like how much they hate what I did. The easiest thing for me to do is like, dude, I agree with you. I hate that too. Like I don't, there's not a day that I've woken up since then where I'm like, I wish I could undo all, not only what I did, but all the hurt, all the things that surrounding it, all the ripple effect of other people. Like my sense of empathy for how actions affect other people has grown because I see not only the small circle of what the hurt that I caused people directly around me and the hurt that I caused myself, but the ripple effect of, you mean, it goes all the way down the line

to, you know, family members of my band, my band members are previous band members, you know, and, you know, other relationships that were taking on stress because of, of Asla Dian going away, and crew members that were supposed to work for us that had to scramble to find new jobs. And, you know, I'm very high. hyper aware of those things because I've sat there and thought with a tremendous amount of guilt of how terrible I feel about them. So when somebody says, I hate you and what you've done, say, okay, the only difference I have is that I hate that version of me, that person, that era of my life. I hate that person and I hate what that person did. I don't hate myself currently today.

I mean, of course, I struggle with self-love big time, but like it's not like the difference between that person to me is I just differentiate, like who I am now and who I was. And they just don't differentiate that. And so it's a very easy thing for them, you know, to jump to hating me currently. It's not, it isn't, rationally speaking, I understand how they got there. And I don't want to like make them feel bad for hating me even. Just like, okay, if you hate me, then you hate me. So what? I got, I have no choice but to move on with my life.

And Tim, I think you've done a good job moving on. And that's my personal opinion. People think we can't be defined by our darkest moments. you know, that's so unfair than what, I mean, we're all human. No one has, as Jimi Hendricks said, you know, no one's hands are clean. So it's just weird. Like, people deserve redemption and another chance to grow. And I think, given your situation, you, you deserve that. And I think you are doing, like, the work as me, as like a friend to you. And I think that's, you know, you should be more the band, you know,

because also me knowing Phil, like, man, he worked his whole life just to play guitar. You know, he deserves to be out there with, with you and playing those songs that you guys work so hard on, you know? I mean, what kind of world are we going to live in and we can't get people another chance? Yeah, I mean, I, uh,

I met some people that did some really, really terrible things, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I also met some people that, that never got caught for, and insanely terrible things, you know what I mean? And you can tell a person's sincere. Of course, they're very manipulative people out there, you know,

but like you can tell, you know, within a certain, I don't know, I'd probably say within 10 minutes of talking to somebody if you address some of those issues to see how they respond. And then if you're not convinced enough in those 10 minutes, then watch them for 10 years, you know what I mean? But like, wow. You know, but if somebody's sincere, it will come out. And so like I can't, you know, if, let's just say 10 years from now,

You know, I have some sort of repeat offense and do something terrible. It's obviously clearly not your fault or anybody's fault that thought, like, hey, you know, I thought he deserved a second chance is that I proved them wrong. But for me, like, I have nothing but confidence in that, like, I am finally the person in life that I want to be, and it took me a long, and it wasn't just after my incarceration. I mean, it was, I mean, even this past year and going through COVID, a lot of stuff, you know, a lot of stuff I've faced in therapy, like, I'm finally on the path and becoming, who I want to be in life,

so I feel good about that. But, like, that's a process. And, man, I, I just, I've repeated this so many times, but somebody hates me and they want to keep hating me. Like, they're wasting their effort because just, I mean, if they sit back and watch, it's going to just, time will tell, you know, everything comes out in the wash, as they say, you know? Yes.

Yeah. Well, Tim, I mean, all you could do is keep going. Yeah. You know, a lot of, obviously, like, a lot of people want you to stay. around because I mean we we've all seen like the numbers and like a lot of fans welcomed you and maybe you can say like love you now more more than ever I know it's where I didn't even know we're gonna get into this so much like to be honest you know you know I think maybe like you struggle like with like with self-love

like you know and I I I get that definitely telling you you're you're going through the processes and you're going through the feelings and the therapy in order to like to get there and that's not a that's a hard road man it takes years yeah even if even for someone doesn't have a complex situation like you i mean i'm at home i deal with that it takes years dude years a process you know i go over like you know are you look in the mirror i'm like i'm like um unlovable and then you to fix that takes years you know and you got to you know um listening to you talk about not have not having memories when you were five and then you having to work past that, you know, that trauma, it stays with you, you know.

Yeah. You know, I mean, I can sit here and say, I think you've done a lot more work than I have, you know, that that shit's really hard to, like, to process like your childhood trauma. You know, it takes a long time. And, you know, like my biological mother, like she, she had like a boyfriend. I was, you know, it was like fucking three or four and he would beat me, you know. and then without, you know, you don't kind of realize it at the moment, but that stays with you and you kind of, something's weird about your late 20s, I noticed, that like things start to manifest

here and there. These students start to pop up. And then, you know, then that starts major abandonment issues, major. Like, you can't even have a fucking girlfriend. You can't even have, like, a best friend. Something happens. And you're like, why? Why don't I feel this connection? You look in a mirror like, I am so unlovable. You know, you know, You know, and then to undo that and this, here you go into therapy and working past that probably feelings. And, you know, now you probably have memories prior to five. Yeah. It's crazy when you work that, work out that, it gets worse for like, you get worse.

It's so weird. It's so fucked up how that happens. Like you want to attack something, a fucking unresolved deep issue in your subliminal. or subconscious that happened to when you were five years old or younger and you do with it like most people don't people most people don't do that they don't but but tim you did and you feel worse for like a week or two or a month like yeah and you probably went to your therapist like why what the fuck dude yeah i feel worse yeah i did actually went her and i said um hey i either need to see you more often because the time between sessions is like killing me or I need to stop seeing you.

You know, so that was what I said. Because I mean, realistically, like, and I know I've used this analogy, and I apologize if it's a tired analogy, but if you have an infected wound, do you have to scrape away the infection first? You know, you have to get in there and, like, just really just hurt yourself more to provide a situation where you can then heal. And, you know, that's true in the early stages of trauma. And one of the reasons is because rationally speaking, you haven't carried around, you know, that. What abuse happened to you, like, you know, physically, like any kind of hitting towards, like, a child at that young age.

You didn't, like, rationally carry that around with you because you don't have the rational mindset as a four-year-old to be like, oh, okay, I'm going to, like, think through this process. Yes. But emotionally, it just stuck deep in there. And so you carry the emotions of that. But then you don't know how to, like, identify them or put words to them. Yes. Because you're still, like, a four-year-old that doesn't have words for those things yet. Yes.

You know, so it's, it's hard to uncover that stuff. It is, man. And it's hard even just like to, a simple decision, like you going on a therapy or a simple decision, oh, I'm going to process it. That simple fucking half-second decision. Most people don't do that. So I said. That part's not simple because that takes a lot of balls, like to go to, you know, or guts or whatever, you know, to be gender neutral here. But it takes a lot of guts to go to a therapist and say, I want you to pull out.

the biggest struggles of my life and bring them all to the surface and then we're gonna come up with a game plan where it might even financially be expensive you know because my insurance might not cover the whole process and then we're gonna come up with the game plan where I'm gonna do whatever it takes to like work through that that's that takes guts

it does yeah isn't that kind of fucked up that you're trying to be a decent person in society and like oh wait is my insurance gonna cover it probably not there's no fucking sense dude why why do we have insurance yeah you know like we should be able to that should be able to be handled. I mean, the good news is there are other supplementary sources like, like I know Jake from August

Monsreda does heart support. And, you know, so when people reach out and they say, hey, my insurance doesn't cover this, but I've been through some trauma or I struggle with depression or whatever. They'll say, okay, you know, we'll help you the best we can. And they usually can provide them a certain amount of free counseling. Or I do know that, shockingly, for people like in state of California that are on Medi-Cal, Medi-Cal will actually cover a certain amount of sessions with a mental health therapist up until, like, they determine whether or not you have a diagnosis. And so they can like drag it out and they can say, oh, it's going to take me eight sessions to determine if this person needs a diagnosis.

So like, you know, for instance, if a person's not, you know, suffering from clinical depression or bipolar or something that's like more on the drastic end of the spectrum, the therapist won't technically know that for eight sessions. so they can get eight sessions covered just in the discovery process, which eight sessions is quite a bit, you know, so. Wow. You know, there are more resources for people out there than they might think. Yeah. I guess, yeah, you should, we should try to find those resources. Yeah, and I want to mention it because I don't want people to be discouraged and say,

oh, I'll never be able to afford that. I mean, if it was a cash out-of-pocket situation, I mean, the average therapist, you know, you're getting a great deal if you're paying $100 to $150, you know what I mean? So like that's for an hour, you know, that's cash pay situation. But insurance is largely like tried to cover at least the exploration to find out if you have. Because in their case, you know, it's like the person, save person is bipolar and they need to be on Cerecule or whatever it is that they need to be on. A Cerecule pill is like, you know, 20 cents, right? So they can find the, they can spend the eight sessions discovering if that's what the person needs, you know, they'll spend that money to, to,

build you know and that's a whole other we don't need to get into that rabbit hole of like sure sure the medication pushing that some of these people are doing but but at least you know at least take advantage of the fact that you can you can get the eight sessions to discover that that's that's a great news and uh uh i went to therapy like uh for for a while and like there was again like we won't won't go down a rabbit hole but there was like hey Chris you should take some uh some of that I'm like yeah luckily I was out of put my life all I was like reading some books I'm like oh I'm fine yeah thank God but yeah good there's resources and on Shout out to Jake from August Prince Redd.

He seems like a very special guy. And I know he's a special guy to you. Yeah. And so one of the things that I'm inspired by Jake is that Jake's a Christian. It comes from that standpoint. Like, you know, I serve others because I believe that's what Jesus commanded. But the vast majority of his motivation is that he suffered a lot in his life. He's gone through a lot of personal trauma and difficult experiences from childhood through

going through divorce and all kinds of things that he's gone through and that's given him a tremendous amount of compassion that's like, dude, I don't want other people to suffer as I've suffered and I think that's really like a powerful thing for him that motivates him.

Yeah. What's your foundation like now? Like, it sounds like you feel our friends again. You know, it sounds like you have like getting like a solid foundation in your life. So how's that going? That's good.

I mean, I will say this much that, you know, having two guys running a business is a lot easier than having five guys running a business, you know what I mean? Sure. You know, just, hey, I got a one of the, about this idea, I just call Phil, you know what I mean? I don't have to put it in the calendar. Hey, three weeks from now, can we do a conference call and possibly meet and maybe somebody will cancel and, you know, that kind of thing?

Oh, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? That's a very arduous process. So for me to just, you know, text Phil, hey, are you free later today? I want to run some ideas by you. You know, that's a great process for him. him and I to bounce things around. And then, you know, with Ryan Neff, Ken Sousy, Nick Pierce, those guys, to that, to, when

they come and perform with us, it's just like, we're excited to be performing. You know what I mean? Like, we're so focused on this. And I don't know, just the vibe between us is incredible. I mean, to be able to do the record with those guys is exciting. It's kind of like a breath of fresh air, you know, like a second chapter for us. And so, you know, I've just sent Ken some demos to show him. like, hey, here's some ideas I'm working on.

And while historically Phil and I have always written, it's nice to have somebody who's so excited to just, like, rip open a demo and be like, let me change that one riff for you. You know what I mean? Oh, wow, that's cool. You know, and, I mean, he's obviously a much better guitar player than I am, you know, and so I'm just excited.

It's a breath of fresh air. Yeah, what's the future of the band looking like for you guys? You know, we need to start working on a new record, and I guess that will help determine the official status of, you know, if everybody, if they're like permanent members and all that kind of stuff. And I don't want to put my foot in my mouth announcing anything before it's supposed to be announced, you know what I mean? But I can just say that I'm really happy working with those guys. And, you know, the fact that communication is not a burden. Like,

if I were to say to the group of all five guys said, hey, you know, I want to get on the phone as soon as possible, I mean, I'd be shocked if it wasn't tomorrow. You know what I mean? That's, that's something I haven't had in I mean even the last couple years of as I was before I was incarcerated so maybe going back to like 12 years ago to get all five of us just on a phone call together was like

I mean it was like pulling teeth you know and it's just like to you know and it's like this something we technically should be excited about like oh cool we get to like talk about a new song oh great like let me clear my schedule that's like nothing in life is more exciting to me

than the creative process and creating something out of nothing yeah i mean i literally like have the have one of the best jobs on the fucking planet man yeah play music write music create music go on play all these shows man and have like a now especially much being like so

it's definitely different for you guys now like you have like this welcoming fan base now that's that's a that's a big family now man it's so cool and yeah there is like you know some some members just make it harder yeah and and sometimes i mean hey i if by the way to clarify i'm not complaining because, you know, if I'm the guy that made getting on the phone feel like, oh,

got to listen to Tim talk for, you know, 20 minutes or whatever, you know, I could be the reason there was that dread about getting on the phone calls. I'm not complaining. I'm just saying for whatever the reasons were, it created that type of dynamic. Yeah. And even if it, let's just, for the sake of making it easy, let's just say it's 100% my fault. Regardless of whose fault it is, it's a bad pattern and it's nice to just have like a clean, nice, healthy pattern going forward. Yeah, it seemed, you're right,

you said, you said some key words. It sounds like the pattern you guys are on. It's very healthy. Yeah. And it's very, moving forward,

and you set the key word I say, as much as I can on this fucking thing. Communication. You guys can, we're communicating now. You're communicating

to your fans and people that choose to, to watch and listen. So yeah, you got to communicate, man. You have to. It's huge.

It's good to see you doing that. Yeah, and it's easy. It's not a painful process. anymore so I mean I I can't like think about the next record without like positive thoughts about it you know

and the idea of like I mentioned when we did Awakened you know it kind of got to where it was a little bit of a strained process I think the record still came out great but it was you know we were talking about the past and just how bizarrely isolated we all got during that record

I mean this is we all the five of us collectively said at the end of our European summer tour just say hey guys like this this was like one of the most fun tours we've ever done we've both we've all been doing music for almost 20 years you know yeah it's like wow like to be able to say this was you know some of the most fun we've ever had in our whole careers that's that means something it means something and looks like you guys are having a great yeah it's it's really cool to see you tim um anything else you uh that you think that we that that

that we haven't covered oh man i i mean we covered a lot so yeah great cool it's really cool to see Ken Seussie playing with you guys. Love that guy, man. I would fucking jam on earth when I was a kid, man. A great guitar player, I think since you guys are in like a similar era, it feels good, you know? For sure. Yeah, they started, I think,

even a year before Asla Nyinger, maybe even two. And the first time I heard them, I realized, oh, cool, I'm creating music that I want to create, but if I want to really be on the level of what I enjoy, I need to become a better guitar player because those guys were, I think they're the first band to do like a breakdown with sweeps, you know, or like just metalcore with like shreddy, actual shreddy parts.

Obviously, you know, modern bands have like progressed and taken that whole formula. But they were the first to me, you know, that I'm aware of. And so when I first heard them, I was like, okay, cool. To do what I want to do, I need to become a better guitar player. And I felt relatively limited. But Phil, you know, Phil is that better guitar player that I wanted to be. So thank God that Phil is able to write songs like that. Yeah, totally.

It's how I've been marked. I just want to do chug chug, but I can't like, ooh, I can't. We were way better than me, so you fucking do it. Oh, yeah. And now, you know, we got two of them, you know, because we got Ken and Phil. Damn, two rippers, dude. Again, shout to Phil. He's a phenomenal guitar player that I feel he doesn't get talked about enough.

Yeah, it's interesting because a lot of guitar players, the guy that plays the leads, on stage at least is the guy that everybody's like, oh, that must be the great guitar player in the band. And Nick was a great guitar player. Nick too. But Nick played the leads because Phil wrote the vast majority of the songs, and so we always wanted to have that as like Nick's showcase section, right?

But it wasn't because Phil was incapable of doing it. And so almost in like a very humble way, Phil sort of like stepped out of the spotlight and people just didn't know all those years that, oh, he could do that too if he wanted to. You know what I mean? So now Phil's up there playing the rhythms and the leads on a lot of the songs. And, you know, it's funny because it wasn't intimidating.

It wasn't like, oh, man, he's got to become a better guitar player. No, he was a great guitar player. He just, you know, he just sort of chose that, I don't know, that backseat when it comes to those, like, spotlighty moments. And now he's doing it all. Now he's doing it all, man. And I know Phil is also doing some behind-the-scenes stuff, like, you know, making sure, like, the bands on point, you know,

like as far as like managing and stuff. And that takes a very patient, intelligent guy while also creating music. So that he's a, he's a special guy, man. For sure. You know, I think you guys are, it sounds cheesy to say. I always say about me and Mitch,

but guys are just meant to be with each other. Yeah. You know, so it's funny when we meet someone like, oh, I don't know, I'm pretty much marry you, dude. And we're always talking to each other. We're always writing music. We're going, we're in all these airplanes, all these little bands worldwide.

So it's cool that you guys found each other and have shared that deep love with music, man. Yeah. And Tim, I'm grateful. Yeah. Tim, you look grateful. Yeah. It's cool, man. And coming from me, I mean, it's great to see you guys back.

You know, I think you guys have earned it, you know. And just keep doing what you're doing. And that's all we can do. But it's great to see you guys back to him. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me, by the way, too. It's a real honor because I don't do very many interviews at all, ever, largely because it's a very vulnerable thing for me. And so I have to feel very comfortable.

And thank you for making this a comfortable situation. I was honored to have you. I was really looking forward to hanging out with you and just looking forward to listening. So I'm glad, you know, it's great to see you. We've been in a fucking smallest bus somewhere out in Europe. I don't even know. But Tim, good. It's very good seeing you.

I'm really looking forward to what you guys are doing next. And I guess that's it. Where can people find you, find the band? All the Azla-Di-Soling socials, I think, are just Azale-Di-Di-I-N with the exception of, I think, one of them, like Twitter or something, is Azlid-Dying band. But that should be easy to find, and then most of my handles are just at Tim Lambesis. So I'm trying to keep everything updated and find that balance of not being on social media too much. It's a tough balance, dude.

Good luck. All right. I'm still trying to find that. All right, Tim, great, great seeing you. Everyone, that's it. Thank you. Thank you. Later.