Geoff Schwartz Is Smarter Than You - Draft Talk with Nate Tice and Lance Zierlein

Episode Date: April 11, 2022

On a special episode of Geoff Schwartz is Smarter Than You, Geoff is joined by two NFL draft experts, Nate Tice and Lance Zierlein. Nate and Geoff talk about the pros and cons of drafting one of this year's top quarterbacks in the first round, and Lance gives his scouting reports on the edge rushers and offensive lineman that he expects to make up much of the top 10.As always, be sure to like and comment if you enjoy the episode, and follow the pod to get notifications when a new episode drops each week. Plus, tweet @geoffschwartz with your NFL draft questions. Who should your team take in the first round?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

it's monday april 11th i'm jeff schwartz and this is jeff schwartz is smarter than you we are powered by the varsity podcast network we have a special for you this week we have some interviews we don't do them very often but when we do we go big and we are talking the nfl draft with nate tice from the athletic and lance zirline of nfl.com nfl network both to break down the quarterbacks nate is that's a specialty and then Lance with the big fellows, defensive ends, some of his other favorite players in the draft. So we've got you kind of set up for the first round of the draft as we approach it. It's coming up soon, guys.

It's going to be exciting. And guys, listen, Lance talks about a player he thinks will go number one. It's a surprise, but I tried to wager on it as we were talking. My sportsbook, unfortunately, did not have the guy up there. So pay attention to hear. And Lance talks to all the general managers. He's very well connected. And so when he says something, pay attention to it.

And without further ado, guys, here's Nate Tice of The Athletic. We talk all the quarterbacks, where they're going to go, how he grades them, who he compares them to. You guys are going to enjoy this conversation. Here he is. Welcome in Nate Tice, newly,ice newly permanently of the athletic are you permanent now because you were but now you're like official official right yeah i was kind of a a mercenary a little bit before but now it's official official full-time one spot signed the deal you know they own my ass now and are you just doing straight draft stuff for them the are you gonna do more

of like during the football season, breaking down games that you normally do? It's kind of a combination of what I've been doing, which is, yeah. So I'll be during the season, mostly focused on what's going on week to week and doing all that kind of scheme stuff, talking with Robert. And then once the draft cycle starts picking up, then kind of shift my focus over to that.

So yeah, a little bit of everything a budsman just talk football i i find it tough to do both at the same time right like you're trying to watch the nfl but then also having an eye towards college football how do you balance being able to do both of those things oh well this december was a uh big introduction to trying to do both at the same time watching finally actually having to write reports on guys and then doing that. It was tough. It's like, you know, it's just having an itinerary every day, a schedule every day going, hey, I have to watch two guys while I talk the football stuff.

But I'll admit, December was a little, it got long. Some of those days got pretty long trying to watch some college guys and then getting on with Robert Sunday nights and going like, okay, yeah, this is what the, the Cowboys did on third down. And I'm like thinking about Desmond Ritter and stuff. Well,

we have you want to talk to these college quarterbacks because I, you know, we can watch all, all we want, but sometimes I don't know what's happening. Other people don't know what's happening. You played, you played quarterback.

You follow this enough. You've watched these guys. I listened to your show with, with Robert as well, so I kind of know where your head's at. You have Desmond Ritter as the best quarterback in this draft, which I think is different than maybe the rest of social media. What do you like about Desmond Ritter?

The polish that he brought. It was surprising watching him as a processor and stuff because diving into him in September and October, I thought he was just going to be a athlete, you know, could run around a little bit, maybe a good, a good arm,

but watching him like operate a real drop back offense, seven step concepts, actually working the whole field going one to two to three. When we're talking about December, watching both these guys, watching the Rams and Stafford doing all that seven step stuff. Like, I'm sure you love it as an offensive lineman.

All that seven-step drops. If it works. If it works, right? If you're getting 25 yards a pop, it's great. But watching him do not the same exact, but similar. Hitting backside digs, hitting over routes,

actually progressing, moving in the pocket. And I would say he has a good arm. It's not something that pops like some of these guys in the league. Justin Herber and Allen Holmes and all those guys. But I would say he has a good arm. It's not something that pops like some of these guys in the league, Justin Herber and Allen Holmes and all those guys. But I would say it's good. I would say it's a good, solid arm. He can drive balls. He can kind of just do a lot of the little things. I've kind of said he's the comedian's comedian. Like once you watch him on film,

you're like, oh, this guy? Okay, I appreciate a lot of the stuff. A lot of little things that he's really improved upon. So that's really his appeal to me and he's a great athlete which is like kind of a bonus but when you look around the nfl you see that the quarterbacks that are winning at a high rate outside of tom brady tend to be these big arm guys have elite traits um and you know they come into college maybe the nfl little raw pat mahomes justin herbert josh allen are you worried that ritter doesn't have those elite physical traits? Yeah, the size is my biggest negative with him. Not even accuracy, it's size. And that's just not height, thickness. And it's really, first one is always going to be durability, which is the first question mark. But that's not an issue with him so far. But the other thing is when you're in

a tight pocket, those defensive linemen grabbing at you, you know, swimming at you, bringing you down with one arm, they're trying to do all that's he's good in the pocket move that it can kind of like help with that and you can pull away but it is that is a concern that i have with him and that's why he needs to be a good processor because he doesn't have maybe that true superpower being the big freaky athletes but he is a good what kind of straight line runner i've compared him to dac a little bit as far as mentality yeah yeah As far as mental and how he tries to win, even though he's a better athlete. So that's kind of what, how he has to be a positive player in the NFL. So that is a concern of mine is just really that thickness and size, even though he has some

speed to get away from guys. I hope you mentioned all the comparisons you put out today because, wow, if you're drafting Tyrod Taylor, the second pick overall, oh boy. All right, well, you know, so with Ritter, obviously, he's the most ready, right? If you put him in right now, he can play? I think so. I think the transition, you know, all these rookies, it's such a, you're getting thrown into the deep end. I think his transition will be easier than a lot of guys, even the guys that have come out the last few years, just because of what he's asked to do. So, yes, I think he's the most pro-ready. He's already shown that he handles protections. It's not theory.

But he's actually walking up to the line. You know, the guys are like, oh, get on the board. And it's like, oh, yeah, that's great. You've been coached up for three months. Yeah, of course you can do it. But actually doing it on film week after week after week it was like that's a big appeal of him so i think he is the most pro ready of all these guys which is that's why i like him but if you're like the lions or the panthers or the steelers or let's say washington kind of saints possibly one of these teams that we'll talk about quarterback is i guess the saints are more in a win-now mode,

but if you're the Panthers, let's say, or the Lions, are you taking someone like Ritter, knowing the upside probably is not the same, but you know you're going to probably get a good quarterback? No, I wouldn't with them. Say with the Steelers, a team that's in a weird transition mode, that's a team that would appeal to me.

If the Lions were patient and maybe had and ritter's there at 32 yeah i would love that not two i i like him in the teens and the 20s for teams that can maybe be comfortable right there which is what you want is that where you like someone and where they get drafted or do different things that's why these guys climb up the board you know seahawks maybe seahawks is, I actually wouldn't hate Ritter with the Seahawks just because of, they're in that kind of weird,

like, they're not really reloading. So it's kind of, they're not rebuilding, they're more reloading. So like him going to the Seahawks would be a little, I know Seahawks are a weird roster.

I'm going to spend months trying to figure them out. Yeah, but I mean, you know, if you're looking at, you know, more of like, we're going to play action pass,

run the ball, kind of, don't have a quarterback that doesn't make mistakes, that feels more like Ritter, I think, than all these guys. The next guy on your list is Malik Willis from Liberty. Feels very boom or bust. Am I right there? Oh, yeah. It's as boom or bust as it gets.

I said this with Robert on the show is I like to look at a lot of these guys going like star, starter, bench, or bust just to break them down. Ritter is a smaller star appeal, but has a big bandwidth for starter. Willis has more of a star appeal, but then everything else, the bust percentage is huge as well. He's going to take forever or a long time to really transition to nfl not only just offenses but just reading defenses a lot of the stuff that he did was super simple and even into that super super simple offense you go oh that's just what hugh freeze runs he's not really like showing a comfort level in it it's a lot of hanging out in the pocket and wait until a guy

pops open and then throwing it and his appeal though is beautiful deep balls he can create with his legs and that's the home run swing that he is i i get some of the appeal that he has and teams going well well you they the josh allen patrick mahomes playoff game broke a lot of brains like it it kind of i think a lot of people go well we need that and that's the thing with willis he's six feet tall he's's not 6'6", like Josh Allen or Justin Herbert or Mahomes' Gumby throwing. So it's a big-time boomer bust. I wouldn't take him until the early second, but that's the thing with the draft. It just takes one team or two teams to start battling each other who wants to get a guy better.

I'm glad you mentioned Josh Allen, right? Because he breaks everything. He had two bad seasons in the NFL. It's so funny. People will argue, well, his second season wasn't that bad i'm like yeah he improved from 54 completion to 59 it's still not good they're still poor and so yeah so so he kind of breaks the mold right and so every team now i feel like looks at willis and says hey and it was not as tall right but the athleticism the big arm even with herbert to an extent of like we watched him in college.

There's a lot there, but probably a lot left over. Are teams going to draft him too high thinking he could become one of these two players we see now? I think so. Just gathering how people were talking about him, I thought people would be more hesitant with him. But it seems that everyone's glass half full. Like, wow, just look at the splash plays. They're great to the flash with him. But that's the thing.

Again, with Josh Allen, he's the outlier of all outliers. I mean, historically, everything. I like Josh Allen after his second year, but no one was expecting this. This was not like no one. I mean, it's so hard to like bet on that. So now you're going for a diet Coke version of that. Like, you know,

a six foot version. That's not, doesn't, I mean, Josh Allen has rare, rare arm. Like, I mean, Jeff George level and Wilson's is very good.

It's excellent, but it's not that level. So you're kind of getting that one, you know, watered down version. So I think somebody is going to draft them too high. If they have, if they're patient with them and they don't throw him in the deep end too early, maybe.

But man, it's dicey. It's dicey for the teams that are going to be desperate. It does feel like we're at a spot where everyone is just desperate for quarterback, right? Like they're going to do what they can because you can't win without one. I wrote an article for Fox Sports talking about my favorite wagers. And I said, I put Kenny Pickett first quarterback drafted. It was like plus 225. He's your third favorite quarterback,

but I feel like he still might go to the Panthers at six and be the first guy off the board. That's exactly it. I love that bet just because of what that reason, that line matching up. That's what's so crazy about this draft is, not just quarterbacks, but every other position is just, me and you have

talked to tackles several times the receivers are crazy whoever's all the board the dns it's all over the board like it's it's really you know i the beholder for these guys so i love that pick it bet to be honest pick it i compared him tyler heineke which is a little mean but he's a little better that looked like wow the six pick overall tylerineke, a guy that we've talked a lot about him because my producer you met earlier, he's a Washington football fan. One of the other hosts on the show is a Washington football fan.

We spend way too much time talking about the Washington football team. And I told him like, look, he's a fun quarterback, but you're not going to win. They traded for Carson Wentz. Instead of keeping him, like, can he pick it to Tyler Heineke? That feels like not a guy you draft early on.

What do you see on his film? Yeah, and I have an early third-round grade on him. That's my reflection of that. His appeal is he's accurate and he creates. He is what I think people wanted Johnny Football to be. Like, kind of like, you know, run around a little bit, throw off platform, run some guys over. Oh, wow, Pump up the crowd. But the thing is, I thought he'd be a lot more polished for an older guy.

He's going to be 24 as a rookie, six year, whatever, played in college forever. I thought he was going to be really sitting in the pocket, kind of go one to two to three. And Mark Whipple's, you know, West Coast offense. And he's one and done a lot. He looks at one guy and he's like, all right, scramble mode. OK, that's fine at ACC level. NFL, unless you're a super athlete or super big and a good athlete, that's hard to win that way. So I thought it was more like, yeah, he's going to be fine.

He can maybe be fun and create some stuff like Tyler Haneke. But I just don't really see that kind of like polished or overwhelming athlete that I thought he would be. And that's not even talking about all the other stuff, hand size and all that. This is just his process and his play. You had mentioned on the podcast with you and Mays that he played with poor offensive line, and this year was better,

but kind of that process was really sped up in his mind. Is that something you can fix in the NFL? I'm trying to think of guys in college I watched that were kind of sped up. I feel like it's faster in the mind. Is that something you can fix the NFL? I'm trying to think of guys in college that I watched that were kind of sped up. I feel like it's faster in the NFL. Even like Pat Mahomes, he still struggles with that sometimes, right? Like things get sped up in the pocket for him and he kind of just like doesn't know what to do. He's just good enough to make it happen. Is that an issue you think if you draft him to like the Panthers here in Charlotte, like their offensive line right now, that's not, it might not match up very well.

or in Charlotte. Like their offensive line right now, that's not, it might not match up very well. Yeah. And that would be my worry too. And it, it's weird with him.

It's once in a while, you can tell he's comfortable with a play and he can go to one to two and it's like, okay, that's pretty good. But you can tell, and you know this in the NFL, game plan he plays,

you know, the little designer he plays, he is, has no idea. So that, seeing that as a guy that's been in this offense for three years that's scary it's not like he had a new offense coordinator i'd give him some benefit of the doubt that's so i have some hesitation so short answer probably this is

probably what he is like yes he can get better maybe there's a couple concepts he's comfortable with but as you know as the season goes along all of a sudden you're changing up everything you're like oh we have this one-off play in the red zone. We have this one-off play on third down. And that's where my hesitations come a little bit with him. Well, the third down stuff is so important, right? I mean, the rest of the time on offense, you know this. You have shots.

You have play action. You have move the pocket. You have quick passes. But third and seven. Is there a quarterback? Who's the best quarterback in this draft on third and seven? Ritter. Ritter?

Just because of what he can handle that stuff. Just because all the pre-snap stuff. Wow, you're convincing me on Ritter. I might have to gamble on Ritter in the first round. I put one on his first QB taken at plus 2,200. Really? That Saints trade is interesting. I'm wondering if they're trying to move up to five.

The Saints trade is, wow. People are saying they're taking a tackle like i love myself in offense alignment i do but trading a first a second and a third for a tackle when i don't think that seems pricey if they move back up if they move up again i mean look if they feel great about ritter that does i think if sean payne was there it feels like ritter would be a guy for him but he's not there. So I don't know what the plan is. Now, they do have that backup tight end. They might throw a quarterback,

so we'll find out one day. You mean the up back and the up punt? The personal protector? Most atrocious contract in all sports. All right, fourth on your list is Matt Corral out of Ole Miss. You compare him to Tyler Huntley. Interesting comparison.

I'm not going to lie. They played in such different offenses in college. Yeah. Sure, okay. I like the creativity. What do you see in Corral? Very RPO-heavy offensive college. Yeah, RPO-heavy, RPO-heavy, RPO-heavy.

And that was a – it's a can or won't thing. I've seen Lane kiffin run various versions of his offense and a lot of people will focus on what he ran at bama and that's when he had blake sims who was also a quarterback that was really a running back and like when he went to fau he ran more of a traditional scheme some rpo stuff but now he gets a little miss with this guy with corral and he's doing just art it was very telling to me because at first i was like okay maybe this is what lane likes now he just wants to go rpo rpo that's the the meta you know for college and there'll be like a third and seven or like a third and six and they're running

designed qb counter with him and i was like okay they don't trust him that was where some of those red alerts went off for me his drop back processing the only one that he's decent on is four verts because he just does the basic high school move the safety throw the seam move the safety throw the seam he does it over and over so that those are some of the things i hesitate on that i think his transitions can be great like crazy steep as far as a learning curve and also he got hurt and so this is kind of sounds like i'm saying this now but even when i wrote him up in december is he's skinny he he was listed at 198 or 200 and then he put on a bunch of water weight it looks like and but that matters that stuff matters if we're gonna bring up for ritter same for corral like he's gonna have that stuff in the pocket where he might i love his toughness

though and that's like and he's competitive but there's some hesitations as far as physicality and mentally i i never really put the weight thing into much, you know, into much context with quarterbacks, but the more people talk about, the more you look at how big everyone is now. Yeah. And of course they're not fat, but just the thickness, even Russell Wilson is a thick quarterback for being in Kyler Murray's not. And what happens to Kyler Murray every year? He gets hurt every year. Exactly. Exactly.

And you worry about that. And, and with all these other guys that aren't as thick and big the only guys i it was really the last year or two years ago i looked into it and it was like every quarterback under 210 it was like it was the vixen the lamars of the world you know freak athletes and then it was like mark bulger was like the only other like pro bowl guy that was under 10 and i think kirk cousins is like the fourth like that those are the guys like that have been successful at that weight if you're not like a good athlete so that i've started to notice it more and more and even when i was playing around derrick carr he got kind of skinnier he was like 205 and i kind of saw sometimes you just get bumped in the pocket so that's where some of

that kind of start coming into my into my head a little bit about the weight. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So the next guy up here is Sam Howell, and he's six feet. I love my comparison to this one. He's 218. You have him as Jalen Hurts. Yeah. I mean, on this list right here, Hurts might be like the third best quarterback, though. I know. Or second or third best quarterback.

That's a play style thing. Howell, you know, another guy that's Six foot and change Like legit Like flat Six foot flat And a quarter or a half And it shows up on his tape The thing When we get With shorter quarterbacks

And I've mentioned this When I've talked about Baker and Russell Is we think it's Batted balls That's what it is It's no It's seeing

Over the middle of the field In between the hashes That's what it is It's not seeing that seam That dig That inside All those inside routes And that's where it shows up With Howell's film is that he wants everything to be outside. And that's how Hurts plays a little bit as well. He throws a beautiful go ball. His deep throws are amazing. They're so pretty. And he's a big, strong athlete. He can run a little bit. But as far as processing on drop back stuff, for a guy that's been in the same offense, it just, it never, he never took that next step. And so that's really worrisome.

I really like him as like kind of like a good backup because he can just run around a little bit, throw some deep shots. But I have a late third round grade on him because I just, it's just, he left me wanting a lot more. It's funny you mentioned the size of quarterbacks in the offensive line, because I was talking yesterday on a conference call

about offensive linemen. And they, someone asked me, well, would you um i was evan not evan neal at guard it was someone else uh some big tackle at guard and i was like yeah why not i said the the short quarterbacks the nfl like drew breeze always had big offensive linemen because you set the pocket very firm and then therefore you can see downfield where like cam noon when he was here in carolina they dropped back like the guards are like five yards. Yeah.

Cam could see everything, right? It was the offense. It was very deep drops. But you want big offense alignment to keep everything in front of you to allow a guy like Drew Brees or to see where he's throwing the ball. You know, when Russell Wilson was good, they had big old guards, right? Yeah. The Super Bowl, you had big old dudes.

And so, yes so yes yes yes you want to have um those bigger type guards with with some of these quarterbacks anyone else um that that kind of comes to mind here carson strong or any other quarterback you've seen that um a team might try to convince themselves they're the next davis. Yeah, that's what's fun. Or not fun, but been weird about this class is I thought there might be some D3 guys. Or D3. Day 3 guys that would really kind of like pop and be like, okay, I'll take a chance on this guy. And there's not really too many. Carson Strong, I love how he operates.

I actually compare him to Trevor Simeon because he's just such a – he's really smart. He knows what he is because what he, is he runs like Phillip Rivers now. Like, he is not a good athlete. And he knows that, though. So he is, he wobbles in the pocket and whips that ball out, and it gets out, it goes to the right spot, he's accurate. I don't think he, people have said that he has a strong arm, and I don't think that.

I think he has more of an average. That's where the Simeon comparison comes in. But medicals are going to be huge for him. The other guys are Bailey Zappi from Western Kentucky. Oh, yeah. Set the all-time record. Oh, yeah. And he's got popcorn arm.

I love him. But he just doesn't have an NFL arm. But he knows what he is as well. That ball comes out quick. You want to watch an offense run to perfection, watch Western Kentucky with Bailey Zappi. It's pretty fun. Just him getting the ball out. But he's more of a backup type the one guy i do like as a day three guy is ej perry from brown um he was a good athlete right yes good athlete transfer he handled

protections as well at brown i actually thought when i watched him he tried to do a little too much where he could keep you know this guy communicates and then they want to change their mind and it's like hey set, set it and forget it. I don't need an easy call. Like, no, don't give me that. Let's just snap it. So he tries to be a little too perfect. He's brown.

He's smart, probably. But he can run around a little bit, throw some accurate balls. Like he has something to him. I really liked him during the shrine week as well. But that would be a day three guy that's interesting as maybe kind of like a developmental backup. One thing that I think it's worth discussing here. So made this case for a while now people do not like it but really the franchise quarterbacks are drafted in the first round sorry like that's that's what it

is guys and if you need a quarterback and you draft in the second round i mean good luck it's happened right drew breeze is one of them i mean dad was a fourth round pick he's a first round talent that got pushed down russell wilson is a complete outlier to that yes so when you when you're if you're a fan of a team right now and you say hey we can wait to the second round to get desmond ritter let's say who you like he might be a second round pick that to me feels like if you want him take him but also if you don't like one of these guys just skip to next year don't don't take anyone past the first round i agree otherwise you're just you're taking a step back in a way. You take a step forward.

Yeah, we got a quarterback, but you might be needing to replace him anyways. And I think that's how I would look at it. I would not be trading up for any of these guys, and that's including Ritter, who I like. It's one of those that if your team's in the 20s or past pick 15 or early second, and a guy falls to you, okay, yeah, maybe. Like if you are a Steelers guy and you like the Ritter, and you like Ritter, and he falls there, okay. All right, let's take a chance. That's better than maybe we'll get next year because we're a decent team.

So like a team like that would make sense. But I completely agree with you. This is not – I say you only move up for quarterbacks, and this is not the year to do it. Last year was the year to do it. Well, yeah, and next year people will be lining up for C.J. Stroud. I'll tell you that right now. Stroud.

Because Bryce Young is going to have the same height and weight issues that we talk about everyone else. He's not a big guy. He's like 190. Yeah, and he is processing stuff, too. There's a reason he starts running around a lot. It's that he's a one-and-done guy. Stroud, though, ascended throughout the year.

He's awesome. That's their offense, too, at Ohio State. Is there a favorite match you have? You mentioned the Lions and Desmond Ritter feel like a home run ascended throughout the year. He's awesome. That's their offense, too, at Ohio State. Is there a favorite match you have? You mentioned the Lions and Desmond Ritter feel like a home run if you get them at 32. Oh, yeah, 32. I do like Steelers and Ritter as well. Same talk, just kind of about that.

I would like Willis to the Steelers as well. I would think that would be a fun because, okay, what Trubisky run around for a year, we'll ease into Willis. It's a good program or a good franchise. We'll let him grow a little bit. I like that one a little bit. God, it feels like just pick it to the Panthers is going to happen,

doesn't it? They're in such a... I can make the argument that if they really like Matt Rule, you take probably Charles Cross, who's ever there at six and you wait till next year yeah you just you just suck this year i'm sorry it's gonna be a bad year maybe you fire matt rule maybe you don't i don't know and then you just put all your eggs in a basket for cj

stroud next year i agree i and i and i mean and i'm just stroud i like the will levis guy from kentucky oh yeah like and i'm sure another one will grow throughout this next year. That's two more than this class have already. It's a lot of these teams, even the Seahawks, who are kind of a weird no-man's land. It's like, if a nine for one of these guys, ugh.

But if you trade back to 17, 18, or 20, or 19, or something like that, that makes a lot more sense. I like Ritter to the Seahawks, but not at nine. Like that's another pairing I'd like. Let's end with this. I have to ask one off.

It's a line question. Neil or Icky, oh, tackle one. I think I'm going with Neil. I think I am. I've come around back around on that. My Icky hesitation, I want to get your thoughts on this He's a smart dude it seems like By all accounts and hard work and all that

All that over setting Don't you think it would get corrected at some point? So this is why I have Neal At one and it revolves A little bit around last year You know that we get real excited about watching Run game finish. Like that is what you're like, wow, right?

And going back to evaluate Slater and Sewell. Now, these guys are not any of those two. But you watch Sewell's film, you're like, good God, this guy's explosive. And you see that a little bit in the pass game, but he did- Just get out of the stance. Yeah, he did struggle a little bit

in the pass protection. Where Slater was like the best pass protector and it was not as good in the run game i think he's actually a better run blocker as a pro than he is in college so i look at this year's class i say evan neal much better pass protector the run game stuff he falls off the you know back into blocks doesn't have those those explosive plays like icky does but if i want someone to come in and start right now evan neal pass protects now i think with icky is is the oversetting is aggressiveness right and how do you coach out someone who's that aggressive it's harder to do and that's why for me evan neal's one icky's still two but if you want someone to like come in and like not have to worry about them it looks like

evan neal's probably that guy yeah i i agree it the Polish. He's under control. Everything is like he just – Very under control. Everything's under control. So it's like he's just – it translates a little bit better. Like you said, like Iggy can go to the right situation and it's like, oh, okay, yeah, they can hone in. But he's just such a wild horse. And also if you're at tackle and you're so out of control there,

it does more damage to the offense. Like, you know, if you're oversetting or if you're out of whack on an outside play and you lunging out there because you're going for a kill shot that can blow up everything because the edge is just you know it's screwed like you know so it's just more i think it's it's a lot is oh yes those are the highlights for offense alignment right the pancakes are always going to be the highlights so it's just what happens with receivers is a lot of people watch those highlights and not realizing what the down-to-down is like. So I think Icky, yes, has that upside,

but I think Neal is just such a safer, solid player for whoever takes him. That's why there's a lot of teams that have Icky as a guard for the oversetting stuff. It makes sense. Yeah, the oversetting stuff. It reminds me of Kelechi with Semele. That's like...

Oh, okay, yeah. With the way he run blocks. I could see that. Yeah that well too too much sometimes like a little too a little too aggressive a little bit but it has that that's a good comment the stance is almost the same too like the stance is kind of like the way they are in their stance that makes a lot of sense that's who he reminds me of a lot where it's like just honing them in well as of right now icky is still the the favorite evan neal's catching up though it was a pretty big split for a while.

Evan Neal's catching up slowly. Well, Nate, we appreciate you joining us today. I look forward to seeing four quarterbacks in the first round, as usual. As usual. And I'm going to be pulling my hair out for each one. I know. Where can we find all your work, by the way? Mainly find me on Twitter at Nate underscore Tice.

And then now, yeah, you'll find me at The Athletic. Yeah, just look. Apparently, my written name is Nate. My pen name is Nathan. Nathan Tice. And then now, yeah, you'll find me at The Athletic. Yeah, just look. Apparently, my written name is Nate. My pen name is Nathan. Nathan Tice. That's what they put me as. But yeah, so look for me on there. My first article came out today with some quarterbacks. I'll have a receiver article next week. And then, of course, The Athletic Football Show with Robert Mays.

Yeah, it's a fantastic show, guys. Make sure to listen to it. Nate, we appreciate it. Thank you. There's another guy that comes on there, too, that has the same last name as you. I don't know if you have any relation yeah he does he does wednesdays he's good man um he is it's just mitch mitch is so funny i love mitch he's the best um yes all right nate thank you very much thank you thanks for having me on well that was fantastic with nate we thank him for coming on and his correlations between quarterbacks was, his comparisons were quite interesting.

If you told me that you're drafting Tyrod Taylor sixth overall, you'd probably say like, uh, maybe not. Or Tyler Heineke sixth overall. So maybe give you a little bit of pause if you're a fan of one of those guys for your favorite team. Again, I think this point is pretty clear that there's not

a guy in this class like a Trevor Lawrence, like a Burrow Herbert. There's just not. It's projects, guys that are good with not very high ceilings in Ritter. And so if you're a team that needs a quarterback, it's kind of a bad year. I might decide to pass.

I know, again, there's a thirst for one and you got to have one to win, but pass and next year, C.J. I know, again, there's a thirst for one, and you've got to have one to win, but pass, and next year, C.J. Stroud, he mentioned Will Levis, Bryce Young, there's going to be guys next year. You have to trade up for them, obviously. Most likely, you have to stink this year. I get all that, but not the best year for a quarterback,

but it is a great year for a defensive end, an offensive tackle, and other players, so let's welcome in Lance Zerline. We'll talk to him about all those guys. All right, we're joined now by my buddy, Lance Zerline, NFL Network, NFL.com as well. Lance, how are you, buddy? I'm doing good, Jeff. How are we doing?

Good. How many guys you write up this year so far? What's the number? I just finished 440 today. I've wrote up three cornerbacks today and then I'm running an errand right now. And then later tonight. I've brought up three cornerbacks today, and then I'm running an errand right now. And then later tonight, I've got a defensive end and a defensive tackle. So I'm going to get to this year.

I think I'm going to do about 475. And then if guys get drafted that you do not have scouting reports on, you have to go back and write them up, right? I do. There's nothing more fun after a treacherous, long, arduous, stressful week of the draft where I'm flying out to L.A. and doing radio in the morning at 5 a.m. and TV all day after that than to have to go back and watch players on tape and write them up after the draft. But I am responsible for anybody now. After the draft. But I am responsible for anybody. Now, every year except last year, I've had to go back and write someone.

But last year, I did not have to write any extra people up. Everyone I'd written up ended up, you know, or everyone drafted, I had write-ups on. Well, let's hope that's the way it is this year. Yeah, well, you know, I do want to say this. It is a process process of finding of figuring out and learning how to find guys who are going to be drafted like there is actually an art to it um or at least a skill to it i don't know about an art to it and so it you know if you know what you're looking for you can find the guys who may get drafted there's certain elements that are more likely to get a guy drafted and when you know what those are they're primarily going to be you know sixth and seventh round guys you're looking for

guys who are height weight speed players and uh that's you know that's what you have to look for those rare testers well i was a seventh round guy who didn't have height weight or speed so um some of us make it through the cracks. Let's get to the top of the draft this year. Aidan Hutchinson, Trevon Walker, Kayvon Thibodeau. What separates those three guys for you? Trevon Walker has really elite traits, elite testing, elite traits. He comes from a winning system. He was a very team-oriented player. You ask him to do this, this, and this, then that's exactly what he would do. And it would be at the expense sometimes of production,

but it also ended up in a national championship. He's got very long arms. He has 35-plus arms. He has really great speed and quickness testing and explosiveness. So he checks all the boxes from a testing standpoint, from a length standpoint. And then he was an elite run defender. I mean, a very physical, physical run defender who, you know, my biggest concern on him is I'm curious if he can rush from the edge.

I don't think it's a given like some people do. I'm going to be a little bit lower on him than a lot of people are. And I think that's because I'm just not completely sold that he's going to be able to to rush off the edge with effective bend and, you know, moves and counter moves. So I still want to see it. I think he's a great run defender. I'm still not 100 percent sold in terms of the pass rush that people seem to project for him. Now, the other thing with Aiden Hutchinson is a more skilled, well-rounded player, but he's got shorter arms, and I think there's a feeling like that he's capped out. What you see is what you get with Aiden Hutchinson, which is great. I don't have a problem with that, by the way. I think that he is an absolute safe pick. He is, at worst case scenario,

a stand-up double, but I don't think he is a Watt brother or a Bosa brother. People just want to throw that out there. There's a lot of those guys running around, defensive players of the year types and all pros. I don't think that's who he is, but I think he's a very good player who is going to outwork most of the guys across from him. But there are going to be some matchups physically where guys can stymie him and he won't be able to have the big days against them. And then when you get to Thibodeau, he is kind of a blend of the two players that we just talked about, only he doesn't produce at the level that he probably should have.

He's got better length than Hutchinson. He's got good explosiveness, good athletic ability, but there's just not the consistency. You just don't walk away feeling quite as safe with Kayvon Thibodeau. But, you know, you do start to wonder, is there a chance that he has a little better upside than Aiden Hutchinson does as a pass rusher? You know there's more meat on the bone.

The question is, is he willing to go get that meat off the bone? So I think that's the biggest concerning question mark. Whenever I hear people talk about Walker, and you mentioned this as well, kind of like doing what the scheme asked him to do. Is there any thought of that with Kayvon obviously I watched a lot of Oregon but like he's dropping the coverage 10 times a game he's playing four eyes he's playing Sam Linebacker he just wasn't put down with his hand in the dirt to rush all game is that something that that you look at it and say hey man if he was just asked to be Aidan Hutchinson and rush the passer every

play maybe we'd see more production. You know, I think that, okay, so the difference was, and I think that Thibodeau is an underrated run defender. He is really twitchy. I'm with you there. I just don't get the hate for him. Yeah, I don't know why people don't talk about him more. Like, he can get rid of blockers very, very quickly. He's extremely twitchy in his upper body. He's got

great range to the sideline. The twitch and the range to the sideline is not a problem. So I think he's a much better run defender than people give him credit for. And I think that's just the nature of the position where everyone focuses on rush, rush, rush, and rush production. But the reality is he's a pretty good run defender. I think the big difference with him and with Trayvon Walker is I think Trayvon is a little more consistently physical at the point of attack. He's a little bigger than Kayvon Thibodeau is. And I think the other thing is that Kayvon Thibodeau, when he had a chance to rush from outside. Now, listen, as an outside rusher, he's better than Trayvon Walker.

And I have a higher grade on Kayvon Thibodeau than I have on Trayvon Walker, just to let you in on that. I just think that there's more rush from him. I think there's similar run defense. And I think when you add everything up, the better total package is Kayvon Thibodeau. But then when you add the football character and you add the upside and the potential and you add the upside and the potential and you add the traits, Trayvon Walker is going to get pushed up the board. But, you know, for me

personally, Jeff, I think the three of those guys are very, very closely bunched in terms of who they're going to be and what they're going to be. Who do you think goes after Hutchinson, Walker or Thibodeau? I think Walker goes first in the draft. Wait, ahead of Hutchinson? Yes. I think Trayvon Walker is the first player drafted in the 2022 draft, followed by Aiden Hutchinson, followed by question mark with the Texans. I don't think it's going to be Thibodeau. You're Houston Texans.

Let's get to tackles then, I guess, next, because that feels like the next one up if the defensive ends are taken. You put Evan Neal ahead of Icky. Icky ahead of Evan Neal. Where do you view those two guys? So, you know, for me, it's going to be a matter of what your tastes are. I think, for me, Evan Neal is the safer of the two. I think he's ready to – he's a plug-and-play player immediately.

He's got left tackle, right tackle, and guard ability. I mean, that's very, very important. You don't have – he's technically more sound than Icky is. I think from an explosion standpoint, Icky Aquan, who's the guy in this draft, he's extremely explosive. I think he plays with a little bit more of a lit fuse at all times where there are times where I've seen on tape where Evan Neal just kind of takes foot off the gas when it's time to finish. And it's nothing concerning, but it's just you'd like to see a little bit more intensity all the way through

the rep. But athleticism, you know, Evan Neal pretty much checks all the way through the rep but um athleticism you know evan neal pretty much checks all the boxes i've got a higher grade on evan neal but i understand the love and excitement over icky aquanu i just think that there are some pass protection concerns right now and some holes in his game that have to be filled and i know a lot of people just assume that everything can be coached and there's never anything that that that is ever going to be a consistent problem. And Greg Robinson should have told you that things can, can sometimes just not land with a guy. And I know Greg had problems off the field, but Greg had major pass pro issues coming out of Auburn and everyone thought, Oh, you can just coach that out of, I thought it. And then that was a learning experience because that simply was not the

case. I mean, Greg Robinson continued to have the same issues and pass protection. So, but I, I don't think Icky, Iquanu's issues are as egregious as Greg Robinson. That's the big difference.

And I know that he's got really high football character too. Next up for the tackles, I believe it's Charles Cross for, for most people, then Penning, and then you kind of get into dealer's choice. Are you worried about Charles Cross playing in the college offense he did? Because I'm just like a general rule kind of out on air raid guys. It's maybe unfair, but they don't translate very well to the NFL.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about it. I thought that when I needed to see, I went back and watched two years of him, and he was much lighter last year than he was this year. He played like 285 last year. That was the biggest concern is I was watching a pass rusher from 2020. I'm like, wait a minute, that number 67, is that cross? Look how small he is. So I had to double check. And, yeah, sure enough, he was definitely heavier this year. I don't worry about that, Jeff. I think he's a good run blocker. And I think from a pass pro standpoint, I actually saw him have to get into some sets,

some legitimate sets, not just a quick wall off, you know, get in front of a guy type thing. It's, you know, in the SEC, he faced. off you know get in front of a guy type thing it's you know in the SEC you he faced now I will tell you that against Tyree Johnson from A&M against Dallas Turner from Alabama I saw some concerns about guys who really speed rushed him and he kind of opened he had to open early panic and recover with a almost a sprint back to the top of the arc but he did get guys redirected and blocked but um I think charles cross is fairly safe he strikes me as a guy who has multi-positional uh flexibility as well if you needed it my big concern with him is can he you know match speed out to the edge with his

pass sets does he have the confidence to trust his feet to do that with trevor penning i think trevor penning is a major box checker, physically major, major, major box checker. I think the one concern I would have is in pass protection. He is just not as consistent as you'd like for him to be, uh,

with his hands and with his hands and feet tied together. And there's some concerns there, Jeff, and I know you've seen it too. That's why, you know, I just wish the play consistently matched the traits because if they did you're talking about a top five player for sure because he is a massive human standing on the the field of the the combine he just looks different than most of the tackles in this draft

it's just he looks like the mountain from uh of Thrones. Oh, he is. I saw him for Big Boys Club. He's a massive human. Continue with the offensive line theme because, obviously, you're great at evaluating these guys. It feels like Green and Zion Johnson are the two first-round guards. Is there anyone else you think in the first round teams are looking at as far as tackles, guards, centers?

Linderbaum may or may not be a first-round guy, but anyone that might surprise people? No, I don't think so. I think what you see is what you get this year. I do think there's some pretty decent interior alignment in this draft. I think there's some good depth. I don't see anyone sneaking in. Oh, okay, so I take that back. Tyler Smith.

Tyler Smith. Yeah, Tyler Smith. I don't get it, Lance. Yeah. I don't get it. So what do you not like, Jeff? I mean, obviously, look, this is the most penalized tackle in college football. Tons of holding penalties.

I get all that. 11 holding penalties this year. It's a major, major concern. Tell me all your concerns with him. Well, I like him in the third round, right? The concerns you have are based off where guys are drafted, right? Third round pick, great. But if you draft him in the first round, you tell him to start this year,

he's going to be a complete wreck. He has no technique whatsoever. You put on the first quarter of that Cincinnati game, you're like, how is this guy draftable? I know it's just one quarter of one game, but dude has no technique whatsoever he can't anchor his hands are outside yeah he's physical in the run game when he can get his hands in the right place i'm just terrified if i take it because you know this

lance if you're drafting the first round as offensive lineman there's no sitting and waiting anymore like you're playing right now if you take him right now and you're a playoff team needing someone because he'll be drafted probably in the back half of the first round oh my god you're in for a wreck the first year yeah so and i think that's the biggest concern i have too i've got a grade on him that would be equal to a second third because i'm kind of you know i'm kind of with you on that i think the biggest problem you have with him is that you are asking him, if you draft somebody in the first round, you don't draft developmental players in the first round. Correct.

A team that I thought who made a huge mistake in doing that was the Saints with Marcus Davenport. He was still developmental, and they gave up an additional first. They flipped first and gave an additional first to get their hands on marcus davenport and that is just the fundamental mistake for me is drafting a player that's developmental and marcus davenport was more ready to play than tyler smith and tyler smith is a physical guy with a lot of things to like but the problem is he is simply not going to be a player

who is going to pick up the technique that quickly and there's a lot of stuff and here's a big concern for me too jeff so we're talking about a player who when you watch him not only is the technique not great he's lazy with it in other words he doesn't slide his feet to cut a guy off he'd rather just grab him and take the holding penalty there's no way the offensive and i don't know the offensive line coach at Tulsa, but I can promise you there's no way he's coaching. Cause I watched Chris Paul on the other side, who's not nearly as talented play with technique. So I know that they are tech, they have technique coached into them. And for some reason, the left tech tackle is not playing with that same level of technique

that concerns me about whether or not he's taking coaching i i agree with you i'm with you there so let's end with this now we talked we talked to quarterbacks with nate tice before you we've talked to defensive ends and offensive tackles and offensive guard to centers who's your favorite player who's not in that position group as a linebacker or cornerback who are you sticking your neck out for is this is my dude you know who i love and he's sticking your neck out for is this is my dude you know who i love and he's in your he's in your conference is trent mcduffie from washington yeah um you know i get he has short arms he has sub 30 arms and he's and he's five ten and a half i think so you know he's not going to check those that length box he plays just like every washington

corner where he's really sticky on man routes. He's tough coming up and run support. But there's just something about him, his competitiveness, his ability to play low and change directions quickly. You just feel like you're watching a guy who really understands how to play the game of football and understands how to read quarterbacks, read routes, and he just feels like a highly skilled cornerback. So he's one of those guys that I feel like I don't really care that the length doesn't match what you're looking for.

The skill and the talent is so good that I'm just a big, big fan. And another guy that I'm a big fan of is Jaquan Brisker out of Penn State because I've really studied him for three straight years, kind of closely. One year was a summer, just kind of a summer watch that I was doing. And then last year I thought he was coming out, so I wrote him up. And then I watched him this year. He's getting better and better as a player. He's very physical.

He's a height, weight, speed guy. And he plays 20-22 football, meaning he can cover in space. He can step into the box and hit you and he has the explosiveness and athleticism to match up with a variety of types of players so those are two guys that are in the defensive backfield that i'm really um that i'd stick my neck out for for sure well trump mcduffie i mean washington just corners, man. And I watched a lot of them this year, too. Like, I think the respect of teams not throwing at him, I think, tells you a lot, right? Like, no one threw at Sauce Gardner and no one threw at Trent McDuffie.

Yeah, they threw at Kobe Bryant and Kyler Gordon, who I both, you know, I think both those guys are going to be day two cornerbacks, by the way. I think Kyler Gordon has ridiculous upside, but he's just got a lot of, he's got to become more of, he's got to, he's got to become more disciplined and, and he just needs to see that he needs to slow himself down and play within himself. But it is interesting that Trent McDuffie is to the point. And look, I mean, Washington always has these corners. You want to talk about a guy who knew what he was looking for. Chris Peterson really did a great job of of knowing what to look for in cornerbacks but i think of all the guys at a scout tell me this

of all the cornerbacks that peterson recruited um they felt like mcduffie's the most talented i thought sydney jones was very talented before he got hurt but i think mcduffie is is the most talented of all that group and that includes uh. Well, I shouldn't really say that. Marcus Peters is a tougher guy to study because he freestyled. He didn't play with great technique, but he had unbelievable ball skills. But he was also kind of a lunatic. Yeah, he's nuts. All right, who are you writing up as soon as we get off of this?

Who's your 480th guy? Yeah, so a guy named David Anaina, who's a defensive end from University of Houston, and Matt Henningsen, I think his name is, the defensive tackle from Wisconsin. Those are the next two guys up on my list. Fantastic. Well, Lance, we appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much.

And I love your coverage of the draft, obviously. We talk a lot about it. And get some rest when this is over, buddy. I'll sleep when I'm dead. Take care, bud. rest when this is over buddy i'll sleep when i'm dead all right take care bud thank you to lance for joining us and just bringing us his thoughts and wisdom he is a guy that's well connected he's a guy you should trust when it comes to who he's thinking goes number one overall he knows how these teams think so very interesting to see trayvon walker go number one and would obviously kind of break draft internet but there's been talk for weeks now about him moving up in the draft

and how teams like him and the Georgia thing plays well, right? You win a championship and teams look at you differently. I think that's one of the main differences between him and Kayvon Thibodeau is people look at him and say, hey, Georgia champion,

Kayvon Thibodeau, Oregon, not known for their defensive players. I don't know if that's fair or not, but that's what it feels like. And I hope you guys enjoyed these interviews as we prepare for the draft. It's a fun time of year. It's an exciting time of year. We'll be back next week with the

regular show. Then two weeks, we're going to have our mocked draft with our whole crew. Everyone's going to be here. One of our favorite shows. We'll have me, we'll have Gabe, we'll have Matt, we'll have Hank and Nick together, most likely, doing a combination pick. We're going to go snake draft or one through 32. Whatever we want to do it.

We're going to make the picks. It'll be a lot of fun. Hope you join us. If you like this show, please leave a rating. Leave a review. Subscribe. All that. Go to my Twitter, at Jeff Schwartz.

Tell me how you liked it. Leave a review. We always appreciate hearing back. You guys have a great week, everyone. We'll be back next week.