Geoff Schwartz Is Smarter Than You - In the Trenches with Andrew Whitworth

Episode Date: October 25, 2022

Geoff is back with a special episode to kick off the week! Super Bowl Champ and Walter Payton Man of the Year Award Winner Andrew Whitworth joins the pod to discuss the state of offensive line play in the league right now. The big fellas talk offseason training, coaching technique, and who's doing it like nobody else at the moment.Be sure to leave a rating and a comment on the pod, and tweet @geoffschwartz if you enjoyed this episode. Want more interviews on Geoff Schwartz is smarter than you? Let us know who you'd like to hear from next!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

it's tuesday october 25th i'm jeff schwartzy this is just me just want to smile you power by the varsity podcast network because we have a special guest today long time nfl offensive lineman andrew whitworth his first year out of retirement guys we were talking all things offensive line play we had a discussion over social media about things wanted to air out on the podcast we do it all here it's going to be fantastic for those who do not know. Angie Whitworth is a national championship of high school, a national champion in college, a national championship with the Rams. Second round pick by the Bengals in 2006, played forever, just retired this past year. Also won the Walter Payton Man of the Year Award for his fantastic work in the community. We'll get to all that in just a second.

Please, if you love this podcast, you're listening i know you do please rate review and subscribe love getting the feedback from all you guys very important we'll be back on wednesday with our traditional gambling podcast or wagering podcast heading into the weekend uh we had a good weekend three and two again also if you came here for any other football takes for the week, FoxSports.com wrote an article about the NFC. Go find all the takes there. I also want to have a guest take. I knew Tom Brady would play bad, and I did not want Gabe to come on here and brag about his hatred of Tom Brady

and how it's finally paying off for 23 years. So thankfully, Andrew Whitworth can help us avoid all that conversation. And here it is with Andrew Whitworth, the big fella himself. Well, here he is, Andrew Whitworth. Welcome to the program, buddy. Glad to have you on. Man, I appreciate it, brother. I'm glad to be on.

How are we feeling? It's eight weeks into the NFL season. You're not playing this year. Like, how's the body? How's the mind doing? Anything like you still want to get out there or not? You know what? The best feeling I've had all year is I've had no itch whatsoever.

Zero. So, zero. I got no interest. Even with, like, the Rams left tackle, the Cowboys, like, none. Look here. You know, I've watched Nick Bosa play enough. Don't let that guy touch me. All right?

Listen, don't touch me. Even when I see him in a couple weeks, I'm going to tell him, do not touch me. Even when I'm walking by. I don't want to feel those hands one more time. Are you enjoying, like, the post-NFL, the Amazon stuff? Like, is it kind of hitting your spot, what you want to do in your first year out? It really is.

I mean, I've had this conversation, obviously, with some guys that are done playing. And to me, it's been really fun to just still have a dabble of being involved and paying attention and then getting to go in the arenas and just feel the energy of the stadiums. I mean, I haven't been in Kansas City probably since early in my career. Right. So to get to go there for their opener at home, I mean, just that energy and the feel of it,

it's been really fun to just be there, see it from afar, enjoy all the little things you probably didn't pay attention to when you're playing. That part's been really rewarding. That's awesome. All right. Well, the reason we have you on offensive line play is we had a discussion this week about how to make the position better. We'll get into that in just a second. But so far this season, what are things you've noticed about the position? Good, bad, some good units, some bad units through seven weeks now I think for me it's it's paying attention really to groups and what they do well and and probably who's probably all around you

know better than others I think that's really one of the things you look at it every offense to me I use this word a lot but the word exposure but it's like every offense is different I mean you know you look at some lines the coordinators do a tremendous job of never putting them in a lot of tough positions. There's balls out fast, there's screens, there's all these things. And then you watch groups where you're like, look, I can tell this guy knows this group is really good and they don't care what they do. They feel confident. I think when people talk about Philadelphia and their line, I think that's one of those groups that really, to me, resonates with is that you don't have to concern yourself with one call when you've got that offensive line.

with is that you don't have to concern yourself with one call when you've got that offensive line i mean there's nothing you're worried about putting them in front of or a game situation that you're worried about that group being in and i think that really to me that's what separates groups this early in the year is who is it that needs to have a certain game go a certain way for them to be it does feel like there's more that this year right like there's there's a couple like there's like five really good offensive lines and then there's like a big drop off where I have not seen that in previous years. Yeah. It kind of feels like there's a couple of groups, you know, if they don't have the lead this game and this group,

it's about to get real ugly, real fast. And so I think that's the thing. And you see more of these. I mean, it's like everybody it's the water screen, you know, quick screens, get the ball out of their hand fast as can be a lot of that type stuff where, you know, you don't see as many teams confident in dropping back with the quarterback sitting in the middle of the pocket. I mean, I like the Lions offensive line, but I felt bad for them yesterday.

They got behind and that Cowboys pass rush, buddy. That is. You don't want any part of that. I that's that's one of those games look it's like when i was young when you went on the road to indy if freeney and mathis got free right and they're up two scores i mean you're just like hey mom turn the tv on it's it's gonna be a rough day at the park okay so i could not stop a spin move that was my like kryptonite should you stop the spin move i hated freeney spin move uh you know to me you know i wasn't somebody who's ever like a natural pass setter so that's been moved i was always catching it a little late i had periods of my career where i blocked him well but my rookie

year and a couple times throughout my career it's like he just sneak it on one time you just overset just a hair thinking you're gonna stop something and man that dude he was unbelievable at it and you played in the old rca dome on the turf probably right like the turf man the fast turf i mean it was it was 100 meters sprint out there that's for sure all right so we got a discussion this week about why the position is not as good in my opinion as we used to be like as a collective as an offensive line collective we're not as good i just laid out this in practice we're not practicing enough right which is definitely true you are you've been playing long enough you were with three cbas i think right you were the pre-2011 cba then the next 10 years and now

obviously the new cba i was part of the the old one we've transitioned from two days to one a days and now even there's like no practice so i give a very general statement about i've said this for a while now it's easy to correlate the less practice time now with the poor offensive line play and injuries by the way ton of injuries now across the nfl you push back on that so let's just start with that premise we practice a lot less now which is not debatable does that hurt the position i think in general general, it's one of the factors. I just don't like that for me, I think for O-line and really O-line play in general. I think you think of, you know, 80s, 90s, 2000s, all these historic O-linemen and who was really good and what groups were really good. This position is just built on something that it's tough nowadays with what practices, what the rules are

to instill. And so I think it's sometimes less about the reps. It's more about the mentality. And I think the reps go into that. Right. But the mentality of this position is just changed. I know for me, like some of the young guys we drafted in the last half of my career there, I mean, they're doing like hip mobility over hurdles every day instead of working out. Like it's like the mentality of who they are and what they are at this position is so night and day different. It's like, Hey man, come over here and put a weight, you know, put a couple of weights on your back and get a squat in like, no, no, no, man. I need to loosen my hips up for a little while first. Uh, I don't even know if our era knew what a warmup

was, right? Hey, warmup was, you're not going to lift quite as many weights as you are on your second set. All right. So that was your warmup. Even on the field, like a warmup was like, all right, eight man sled. Let's go like, go hit the sled for you. Do three reps and let's go write an individual. I asked him if they know what mattress drills are. And they're like, what? I'm like, when I got to Cincinnati,

Paul Alexander laid a mattress outside the shoot and one guy sat in the shoot and the other guy fired off and just waylaid you onto the mattress. And that was the mattress drill. Like you just, you just got piledrived into a mattress to start practice. That was the warmup. In college, our offensive line coach, he didn't use a hammer that he had previously used, but he used a hat hat like something that hit us

on the head if we came out of the chutes too high yeah like smack boom smack on the head again i'm not advocating for two days again but i do think how we practice is a big issue too right like to me the position is best learned doing right like it's a position where you have to get your hands in the right place your feet in the right place and i put this general like practice is the umbrella of all these things which probably is not fair because there's many different things that are evolved here but to me again like when you're not doing even at the basic level just not doing we're not doing it as much anymore it doesn't help the progress of the young guys who by the way look from college now it's a different game in college different game in high school now

i was watching a high school game the other day on tv look like a division three game like they're spread out zone read shotgun passport just different game now so they come up to the nfl i don't think guys are just as prepared now that's why the practice thing to me seems so important maybe that's too basic. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying is I think that's almost a – I don't like hearing national, especially you hear some of these broadcasters say that, and it's like, all right, hold on. Give these guys some credit who are good at the position

that there's a process to how they're good. And it's not just practice reps. It's all the above. It's like, all right, if that is my situation, then how do I overcome it? Like, what, what do I do in the off seasons to prepare myself? Cause one of the things besides really saying, yes, it's a different generation and all this kind of stuff. And they don't expose to some of the things we were, but the other part is, is a lot of them in college play, you block a guy for half a second. Right. And it's like, they haven't ever figured out how to

wrestle and fight and do all these things. And yeah, practice can do that, but there's many other ways too. I mean, throughout my career, you know, I trained so many different ways. I didn't want everything from jujitsu to, to Muay Thai stuff, to, to training with Olympic lifters to every year. I just tried different things and try different stuff to prepare my body for seasons. I never wanted to do the same thing every year, but then also I came in the league, probably an advantage with a guy like Paul Alexander, who's more of a scientist of the position than probably a drill sergeant. And so it was always figuring out the way you move better, figuring out yourself and how you

could do things better. There's no one way to do things type of thing. So I was always in that mindset. And I think some of these young guys, like the reality is, is maybe it's not the practice reps as much as, all right, you can't talk to them until, you know, April. And then they get to April and it's just team stuff. And it's like, when do they get their individual work when they're preparing? Anthony Munoz told me this when I was like in my fourth year in Cincinnati, I never forgot it.

He's like, Whit, you're a great dude. He's like, year in Cincinnati. I never forgot it. He's like, Witt, you're a great dude. He's like, I played the game. I loved it. He's like, remember this. The offseason is the time to be the most selfish you can possibly be. He's like, you have literally got to be selfish about preparing yourself to play in the offseason. So how do guys start this process, though? The things that you did, the things that other guys do.

How do they begin that if there's no one in the building this is i think another probably there's so many issues to talk about yeah like there's you know there's not a lot of older players anymore and not a lot of guys that kind of did it and i'm not saying the old ways the better way because i definitely think you know training with duke for example like there are new ways to do things that are very good for you but like how do guys begin the process if they're young or figuring out, okay, here's all I have to train because I'm not getting this training in the facility anymore. Yeah. I think one of the things you see really, I mean,

obviously it's always existed in NFL football, the guys who prepare in the off season, the guys who don't, but I think you see it even more now is, is really talented guys who just have no idea how to handle that break time or how to handle when it's not a structured, Hey, you have to do this X, Y, and Z right now. And I think it's really cool to me. I've been an advocate of this is I got a chance to visit some of these other leagues and sports leagues and in the NHL, you know,

whereas we have player development, a guy who, yeah, he was a former player and he's helping you do your bank account and like, you know, take care of mom's tickets. It's like they have an actual program where the former players are true player development. They take the young guys out on the ground, on the ring, you know, to create the grass and do drills with them. And then they also do all that other type stuff. So they actually have a true development program for their young guys where

they're getting extra time with these veteran players who've played the game out learning how to prepare and those kinds of things. So to me, yeah, I think it's tough, but it's, that's why you have guys like Duke out there. That's why there's other ways to go about it. And I think to me, it's about young guys realizing, Hey, you know, whether I'm getting reps or not, it's not an excuse. What are you going to do about it is the mentality that I want to create. And I think you watch there's guys who do it.

I look at a Larrick Jackson who has recently come into playing a lot for the Rams now with all their injuries, you know, he went in at right guard, played well, Joseph Noboom, unfortunately gets hurt. He goes into left tackle and plays well last week. I mean, he's a guy from day one, like this guy in the facility every day, always working, always watching tape. Like even when I'd offer him stuff, it'd be like, Hey, he might listen. And then he'd be like, Hey, let me, let me go. Like, let me do my own way, which I love because to me, that's the drive it takes to be any good. And nowadays you almost have to come in internally driven or you're in a lot of trouble. Whereas when we play, you might kind of be in between and somebody is going to make you get that way or you're going to go.

kind of be in between and somebody's going to make you get that way or you're going to go yeah because you show up on march 15th and you were there from march 15th till july 1st um one one thing that i see as a as a concern i've mentioned this for years now is we don't as a group like meet anymore like we don't like the offensive line used to hang out all the time you spent all your time there you watch films you together i watch games on sunday i think to myself because i had to i was not the best athlete i didn't move very well i had to know everything was coming otherwise i was cooked and i watch games now i'm like guys it's third and eight you didn't see a te coming like you don't talk to each other like to me and that and maybe i include that in the practice envelope like umbrella because to me like i grew up by jordan gross and ryan cleo they were great mentors like we sat in the film room on for breakfast and after practice after meetings and just watch film

as a group and the ipads have ruined that i feel like like there's no camaraderie anymore and watching film together no there's not i mean you come in the facility even for me last year and it's like hey you guys seen it it's like yeah i watched it at home you know and it's like nobody has any interest in watching it together or to me. Yeah. And it's like, they might pull up one play they want to look at and that's it. And then they think like they're done because it's like, Oh, you showed him this one play. And it's like, no, why don't we talk through?

I'll never forget when I showed up here in LA, I had John Sullivan and came the same time as me and he lined up in OTAs. And this guy calls out like the defense, the rotation, the mic, you know, everybody's assignment. And I'm like, no, this is NFL football. I love this guy. Right. But now you don't have any of that type stuff anymore. I mean, now it's like, can the center point to where he's actually going? We don't know. We hope so. I mean,

and it's like no communication whatsoever. It's wild. How many teams that literally people, I think people would be blown away. They can't function just because they can't communicate. And that's it. Like just a lack of communication. I mean, also too, to be fair, there's more in quarterbacks than ever before. I mean, there was, we used to make the points all the time. Now quarterbacks go up and they're in the past game. How many teams actually do their own identification? It's the quarterback, right? He just goes up. It's like, we got these two guys.

We got this guy go set hot. Let's play. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the quarterback, right? He just goes up and it's like, we got these two guys. We got this guy. Go, go set hot. Let's play. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the reality. I mean, when I got in the NFL in oh six, you know, you didn't get in the shotgun unless it was third and 25. So, but now, yeah, they got a lot of different looks. There's a lot of pressures, packages, everything. Like I said before, I think that also there's a, there's a, there's a transition really to, I had this conversation with Matt Burke with the Cardinals this past Thursday night,

is nowadays what they know defensively and how they understand how we do everything. It's so dynamic. Now defenses know not only how to hit the weakness of an offensive protection, but how to get the weakness of exactly who it is in that protection. That's the weakest. We'll set this blitz up, this pressure to attack that sole person now. And I think that's really how they can do things that's changed the game. And so if you can't communicate and you don't have a background,

I think that that's really the toughest part for young linemen coming in the league is that now you don't get to start off with four down fronts and let's just point to who we're sliding to. You're like, man, hold on. Who's down? Who's walking around? I have Jalen Ramsey on this play. Like, it's like, you know, it's insane what these guys are facing. You mentioned exposure on our Twitter thread.

I think it's the right way to go here. Like, to me, and I mean, Duke has mentioned this too, so I'm using some of his words as well. Like, the coaching on the defensive line side, I think has exceeded the offensive line side, right? Like, they're able to find matchups now that we didn't have to deal with and it really puts the offensive line a very tough spot when we see how many pass rushers now used to be you know pass rushers just line up on one side like that was their side and now you know you got parsons and lauren you got these guys moving everywhere each weekend and to me our coaching

is not caught up to the defensive line coaching right now. Yeah. I think there's too many O-line robots in my opinion. I mean, there's a lot of robotic coaching and it's just, you watch the D-line, they've gotten out of that. It didn't just shoot your hands. It's man, you face Aaron Donald. It's like, you better bring a gun because you can't use a knife because the guy's chopping knives down in practice. Right. So, I mean, you watch this guy. It's like he'll break your arm if you leave it in there. So it's it's one of those things that there's so much that's left to be done for O-line play and figuring out how do we grow the way D-line has. And and that's kind of my point is that I think that sometimes we make it just about the practice O-line's getting.

And it's more about are the schemes getting better, the attack of the defensive line's getting better, they're getting better technically. And it's like, what are we doing to progress and not just be a, hey, take two kicks and punch. Like, it's like, all right, that's not going to work anymore. You know, what's the next progression we protect? I'll never forget meeting Jason Kelsey when he was a rookie.

I tried to teach him how to double under. He tells the story all the time. I'm telling him how I, man, I just sit back and just swallow people. Just, just engulf folks when they get closer. He looks at me and he goes, Hey man, I'm never going to be able to block like that. And I was like, you know what? You're probably right. But he's turned out pretty damn good.

So he worked out for him. I mean, but that's the important part, part right is like coaches have to be flexible i understand if you want to teach a technique i'm fine with that both six offensive line coaches like i get a technique but like i put the offensive line coach who wanted me to be like chris snee like i'm not 6-3-3-10 i'm 6-7-3-40 like i'm not that player coach, I can't do what he can do. He's a better player than me. Like, it's okay if we do stuff differently. I feel like a lot of our coaches haven't progressed enough to where they're allowing players. You have to do their system. I get that part of it, but just creating an environment where the player can do what works

best for them. Yeah, I think you look at, I always make this example to people is that you go to the 32 teams, the NFL and watch all the left tackles. You're very rarely going to find two guys that set the same, use their hands the same move the exact same way. Like it doesn't happen. So if I'm a coach, how am I trying to teach that? Like, it makes no sense. If I can show you that the 32 best in the world all move differently, then the idea that there's only one way to do something is already deleted. It's already wrong. Because I hate when I walk outside and I watch an O-line drill and it's like, all right, everybody squeeze your knees together and squeeze your elbows. And I'm like, what?

Show me how many guys actually block like that. This just doesn't happen. Where'd you read that? And what book? It just doesn't happen. And so to me, I am a huge advocate of guys learning, like you got to watch tape, you got to study players. And I don't mean watch tape a D line, watch other really good O line across the league and find what fits your style. Like how do you move the right way? How do you feel strong? You may be a knees out guy. You may be, you know, engulfed. You may want to wrestle dudes. You may be a puncher. That may be your style, but you've got to find it. And that's kind of what I mean I think O-line coaches have got to open up to, Hey, there's a lot of different ways to do this. What, how, what do we want it to look like? What do we want the play to feel like? How do we want to execute it? That's important.

But every guy moving the exact same way is not possible. So how do offensive line coaches kind of catch up to defensive line coaches? I'm not, I'm not saying O-line coaches are bad, but the idea that like, again, the exposure part of it, right? Like, okay, they're going to move someone here over my worst guy. How do we make sure that guy's ready to play that week? Yeah, I think to me, it's exactly what we kind of just touched on. It's finding what is best for each player. I mean, I look, you know,

you just look at a line and you start saying, Hey, does this guy seem like a guy who doesn't move his feet as well? And he's powerful. All right. I'm going to teach this guy to really get on people right now because you got no chance or is he a guy that's not going to be able to set as well, but he can vertical set. And he's an engolfer. Like, you know, you hear these old line coaches argue all the time, like vertical angle sets, jump sets, like everyone's wrong. And just like, you know,

going to hell depending on which decision they make. And it's like, no, like maybe that fits them. Like Toronto Armstead, I could never set some of the ways Toronto Armstead gets set. That crossover on the, on the, like the Y nine he does. I would literally, I mean, I would look so horrific trying to do that. It's just unbelievable. But, and Jason Peters, like some of those jumps he does like, no way I could ever do that. Joe Thomas, I could never set do that. It's just unbelievable. But, and Jason Peters, like some of those jumps he does, like there's no way I could ever do that. Joe Thomas, I could never set like that. Like it's just never going to happen.

I would love to be able to kick like that for anything. Can't do it. So I've got to find my way. And I was somebody who couldn't kick set. I can remember when I came out for the draft, like they lined me up with all the other line coaches and they're like, dude, you don't know how to like kick and push and kick. I'm like, no, like I can waddle backwards and just swap like just grab people if you didn't do it in college or you just not natural i just never really could man i never i mean like hips wise i've always had hip issues i've had torn labrum since i got in the league

and so i just never could like my hips never opened up that way so i never could kick so it always was like me for me i spent all my time during the week trying to figure out whether i could take a set just i just want to be able to take a set because i couldn't move that well and so as i got older i learned to just waddle back and sometimes have to step back that's all i could do because i couldn't kick and so it was like all right i'll get back and then i'll play basketball and that's that's literally just what i would do so did you have to work with the left guard to let him know like hey we're not i'm not going vertical and on third and long like you have to work with the left guard to let them know like, Hey, we're not, I'm not going vertical on, on third and long. Like we have to find a way to kind of be the same level, even though, cause I'm not, cause I'm not going to be able to kind of do that traditional, like

third and long pass set. Yeah. So what I would actually do is, is a lot of times, you know, watching tape, I would upkick my left foot and kind of just push myself behind this kind of back pedal, uh, like a DB behind his hip and then play the play from there. And so that's really the only way I could do it. So most of the time I always liked for guards to cover their guy up a lot and I would drag a bunch because to me I had long enough arms that I could really like push on the three

and like make the defensive end have to make a choice pretty soon to where he really didn't have anywhere to go if he didn't make an early decision so I just started to learn how to use some of those things to my advantage and play off of it and I think that's the big thing we're talking about is our guys actually studying the game not to hey I remember having Cedric Abuehi and I love Cedric to death but he came in and was like you know watching Tyron Smith tape and I'm like hey listen I'm gonna tell you right now dude I love you and was like, you know, watching Tyron Smith tape. And I'm like, Hey, listen, I'm going to tell you right now, dude, I love you. I think, you know, yeah.

You're not Tyron Smith. Okay. That arm and that hand is like made from God. Okay. So I just, I just want you to understand that ain't happening for anybody else in the league. Okay. So look at somebody else, but it's like one of those things that that's just certain guys have certain traits and you got to find what your trade is and then figure out how to work Look at somebody else. But it's like one of those things that it's just certain guys have certain traits. And you got to find what your trait is and then figure out how to work on the things you're not as good at. How important are guys like Duke to help with the development of players who really, you know, again, they're not maybe not getting it from their coaching staff. Were they able to go to see him?

And there's plenty of other guys who train offensive linemen as well. They'll use them as the resource now i think it's like of the utmost importance for guys in this in the in the age now to find your place in the off season you don't have the reps so how do you make up for those reps you know in my career when i wasn't able to practice after i had my patella issue yeah 10 years ago i i went into like visualization stuff so So I love to go put some headphones in, I'd go out on the field and I'd play games and take snaps and watch tape of who I'm facing and just emulate their moves. And in my mind, play and block them. I'd find ways to get my reps, you know,

and guys would laugh at me all the time. I'd have very contraption, I like bands around my arms and freaking weight vest on. And, you know, I always create, I found some new way to make it stressful. And so, but like, you've got to find a way to create your reps. And I think that's really more the issue than anything. These young guys is like, when you're coming into the league, don't think that like OTAs is enough. Don't think that training camp is enough.

Like it ain't enough. You need so many more reps. And the only way you're going to get them is if you're internally driven to go find them and finding these O-line coaches out there, these off-season programs that you can be a part of, whether it's Duke, whether it's other guys out there doing a good job and really looking into that. And I think the agents too could do a better job of understanding if I have O-alignment, like this day and age, I've got to have a plan for them to have preparation and time to get ready other than just when they're with their team. Yeah, I think this is where the lack of older guys in the NFL, I think, hurt a little bit, too, because as you mentioned, when you're a young guy, you come and you don't know any better, right? Like if you go to an offensive line with a bunch of young guys, you might not know any better.

You might not know. You might think OTAs is how this goes. It's never going to change i mean that's the way the nfl is now right so like these young guys to your point like gotta lean on ex-players or people in the know their offensive line coach hopefully to figure it out because you don't have when i came in the nfl again like i keep saying i feel like the old guy's talking now but like i had an older guy it was like you're doing this. Like you were coming with me. You're by my hip.

I played nine years. You're just going to do everything I do for the entire season, and we'll get you on the right path. Yeah, that's how, you know, Willie Anderson was for me. I mean, when I got in the NFL, Willie Anderson was amazing for me in that way and taught me things. And then from there on, he left after my third year, and it was like, all right, I'll take it from here. But I look at even COVID these last two years. I mean, I changed my house garage into a training

facility and I have trained there for the last two and a half years together. And it's wild. Like every young guy would come in. It's like, Hey, come to the house, got a trainer for us. We'll go out and do drills together down the street, like stuff like that. And to your point, let me not a credit to me, but as much as like, if I'm not here, right. And it's, they were really young up front. Yeah. Sullivan and Sapphire left. Like, what are those guys do during, like during these last couple of years of COVID, like what are guys doing in the off season? Like, what was the plan?

Like you lived out in California and there's nowhere to go train. There was nowhere to go do anything. Right. Like, so it's, it's interesting to think about like, what what what was the plan for all these guys because most of them would have just been trying to figure it out in their garage i can remember austin blight had like a i don't know one of those mirror workout things in his house that's what he did every day for the off season because he didn't want to come to california you know so it's like that was his off-season program wait he used one of those like with a title. What's it called? Yeah.

Tonal. Tonal. Yeah. Not a sponsor of the show. He used Tonal for an entire offseason and showed up to camp. He's ready to ride, you know. Wow. Hey, you got to figure it out.

But, yeah, I mean, it was a wild couple years there. And to me, to your point, I mean, having those guys here at the house with me, training every day, getting to see kind of what my daily rhythm was I think it was definitely something that they learned from it was beneficial to me because I had young guys around to work out with but I think it's one of those things having a veteran around is a big deal do you think offensive line coaches and offensive linemen are on kind of the same the same wavelength a lot of times like I just watch games I feel like sometimes it's just kind of like are on kind of the same, the same wavelength a lot of times. Like I just watch games. I feel like sometimes it's just kind of like,

they're not on the same wavelength and they don't communicate as well. And they just, there's things on the games. I'm like, like, that's not, it's not good. Not good. Yeah. I thought one of the rarest, as far as just communicators, even Paul was pretty a chill guy. He wasn't really an engaged guy in a game, but Aaron Cromer, when I was with him, it was, it was really cool. Like he would get mad at you, but you'd have like full on conversations like, Hey man, we're having trouble on this double right here. Like, I think I'm going to go hands like, Oh yeah, go hands. Then, you know, what's

he doing? You know, you'd have like full conversations about, Hey, what's another option? Like, well, they're, they're, you know, one gap slanting on us. Oh, okay. Well, instead of trying to form them, you know, go hands and pass them to the next guy. Like, okay, cool. Like you'd walk off the sideline, like with a full on, all right, here's our plan for how to go get this block in the next drive. Now, granted, we had Saffold and Sullivan, it's a veteran. So it was easy to have those conversations. But yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the things right now to me is sometimes I get the feel that some of these O-line coaches are just trying

to get to that coordinator spot or just trying to move up in the offensive spot. And I don't know if they're truly like O-line centric mentality, how we like actually all get better, grow together as a group, as much as some are across the league and so i think you kind of see the ones who who are the old school way this is my group and this is who we go to war with i think you see a difference in the way those guys play up front you really do you mentioned earlier back and this is an issue and call issue with everyone but like the college game right it's so different now where a lot of times you're just like getting in someone's way getting set up again and going is people kind of blame like the the

college game doesn't have guys ready to play in the nfl i find that kind of a weak excuse because their job is not to get ready for the nfls to win college football games do you see that as as though a problem when guys kind of is there coming up into the NFL from college football? Oh, there's no doubt. I mean, the way you block in college is just night and day different from what you're going to do in the league and who you're going to face and the leverage. I mean, I can remember, you know, you know, I obviously had a couple of really good players in the SEC that I faced, but like when I wasn't facing David Pollock or one of these SEC guys, Bobby McRae, you name it,

like these guys that were really good at Florida and Georgia and whatever, like it was like, man, I don't even know. I mean, I think I was just out there like having fun. It didn't feel like competing really like, right. So when I got in the league and the first time, you know, you, you feel a guy hit you with a bull rush right now in your face. It's like, OK, that's Justin Smith just right down the nose of Cowboy. Yeah. I was like, all right. So this is NFL football. OK, I got to get my feet in the ground at some point.

And I just think it's totally different. I think the challenges are way different. Yeah, it's funny. There's always a come to Jesus moment when you get to the NFL. And like we all Justin Smith is a bad one to have. Mine was Charles Johnson, who was a Panthers defensive end. He was so strong. And I just didn't know how to, we did board drill every day. It was me against him in training camp. I did not know how to hit him properly.

And I just got my ass kicked every day. So a veteran, a guy was like, look, here's the deal, buddy. Stop trying to be perfect. Stop trying to get your feet in the ground. Just a snap of the ball, just drive out your stance, and you have a huge, giant collision. Don't worry about your footwork. Just freaking fire off the ball.

And, again, it was like an older guy kind of taught me, like, yo, this is how this drill works. You don't get your butt. Do they even do, like, one-on-ones anymore, the board drill? You know what's why? No. No, they don't. You don't have any board drills anymore.

You might get a little half line every now and then for like two reps. So nobody gets hurt though. They got a quick whistle and like, you know, you might get two in, but that's about it. But you barely get one-on-one pass rush. I mean, shoot, some of these guys don't even want to do one-on-one pass rush. Cause they, it's funny, like the old line coaches don't want to do one-on-one pass rush because they don't want like, Hey, it looks bad if we're getting beat, you know? And it's like, well,

Oh yeah. There's guys out there that I listen. I've talked to some guys across the league. Like, Hey, my coach doesn't like one-on-one either. He doesn't like to like, it looks bad on us. Of course it looks bad. It's a shitty drill. We're going to, we're not set up to, but like, you need to take reps. You got to. Right. So that's what I mean is that there's a team out there that you're, you're, you,

you are dealing with a lot of different issues in the O-line position, in my opinion, in the league today that we didn't have. I mean, that's just the truth. And so schemes are harder. Exposure is different. You know, you're not getting as many practice reps. And then also, I just don't know if there's as many true O-line guys invested into O-line play in the NFL as there was at one time. A couple more here. How have the rule changes affected us? No cutting in space, obviously. They've kind of taken away some of the techniques that we like to use to slingshot things like that.

That feels like it doesn't help offensive linemen. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's going to continue to get more difficult. I think you're going to look at it, would imagine after this year's conversations these leaving these sifts across the formations with tight ends and things that have always been a part of the game you're going to start to see a change and this kind of stuff and uh it's wild i saw the one yesterday called on you know them cutting bosa on the edge there yeah that just seems like like what is wrong with that play but the chiefs did that three times before that and didn't get called. That's the thing about it.

Like, if you're going to do it, be consistent. Now, this one was a tad bit further wider. Like, other ones, the back came straight downhill and Bosa kind of played off the tackle a little bit inside. But, like, you let him do it three times earlier. Like, why now? Do a touchdown off the board. That's the problem.

Officiating is a whole other story. Like, just be consistent, guys. Like, come on. Oh, yeah. No, so I think that stuff's going to get wild because I don't think people understand, too, running backs and tight ends sometimes, just their position, that's the only way they could

possibly take these guys on. The only way I could see those stick is that inevitably everything goes back to the quarterback. If you're going to start telling running backs they have to stay up on some kind of protection where they're going to end up on Nick Bosa or a defensive end, they're going to get annihilated in the quarterback, which is going to result in quarterbacks getting

hurt, which means that they won't take the rule away. So I'm just going to I'm going to hope that it's going to all funnel back to protecting the quarterbacks. And hopefully we don't go too far with that rule. But but yeah i think obviously there's a lot of things that are affecting the line play um you know you start to see it now even more so the hand stuff i remember when i got in the league it was like if your hands are inside and your feet aren't beat um you're good but now it's like there's no regard for that it's just like whether they think you might have restricted it didn't even have anything to do with you holding or where you are in your body like what do you want guys to

do we can't see the ball that the worst penalty to me is the one when the quarterback leaves the pocket and they flag the tackle you're like i don't see him leaving like my hands are where they're supposed to be like i'm like i'm not i'm not my hands aren't aren't out my hands are and like i don't see the quarterback why am I getting flagged for that? Yes. Yeah. It makes no sense. And that, that's the tough thing. You know, fans at home are mad at the guy. Like, why are you holding? It was a touchdown. And it's like, dude, you have no idea where the ball is. I mean, absolutely none at that point in their protection.

It's just, you would think that some of these, and we don't want to get into the rough things, but you would think that some of them would just be some judgment. Like, hey, you know what? That actually, I don't know how in the world he would know. So I'm not going to throw a flag on that. I'm with you on that. All right, let's end with this.

Speaking about slingshot, all right. About four years ago, there was an article that came out that I helped talk about the slingshot, and they were outlawing it basically. And I called the Rams, your offensive line, lazy because y'all were grabbing people from behind on slingshot and they were outlawing it basically. And I called the Rams, your offensive line, lazy because y'all were grabbing people from behind on slingshots. I believe you called me a douche on Instagram. I don't know.

I want to clear the air here. Was it wrong for me to call you guys lazy for grabbing people from behind? Well, I know I didn't use the word douche because I don't even know. I don't even think I've used that one. But yeah, but I was upset. I, here's why, here's the thing is I actually had never used the slingshot in my career until I got to the Rams. Aaron Cromer talked to sling, slingshot. I love it. Yeah. I love it too. I loved it too. Uh, but I felt like lazy was a bad description for, you know, I owe Lyman. It's like this,

you know, we can call ourselves fat like this you know we can call ourselves fat you know we can talk about our other personal uh you know problems right but you know lazy is a bad word to you lazy technique i didn't say you were lazy it was lazy technique lazy's lazy all right don't get into that with me that's like saying that was a soft technique. I'm not calling you soft, but it was a soft technique. But no, we're good. I know we're good. I'm just saying like, is it, was it fair for me to call that lazy technique? It wasn't lazy. It was actually how we were taught to do it.

To grab? Yeah. To grab and pull through. Yeah. So. No, I know. I mean, Andy Hecht taught in Kansas city. It was like my favorite thing ever. You would just kind of like pull like, but y'all were like from behind. Unbelievable. Yeah. Y'all were like grabbing. Like I was like, it's their fault.

It's the Rams O-line fault. It's our fault. Well, here's the news. And I love this guy to death. He's one of the best linemen in the game. Trent Williams does the most lazy shots in the history of the game. Yes. But he never gets called for him no it's

unbelievable you could make a highlight tape of about 60 plays that would be the most egregious holds you've ever seen and trent that's ain't called for it ever why not is he because he is because he runs his feet like he just he never stops moving just so i think he's so fast they don't even see it it's like what they don't even know what just happened did you see yesterday he had that block on that wide receiver screen where he basically beat the he wasn't supposed to block the the dn i don't think but he beat frank carter to the spot and turned around just like blocked him like what what's this what's guy what's wrong with this guy dude it's unreal it's not even fair like he should be like a o-lineman slash something else because it's not

fair that the rest of us have to be graded in the skill set that this guy plays at the same level but like then you have other guys man just like arn is physically gifted it just like my brother kicked ass man he had like the word i tell him he had like an f grade for this combine but he couldn't jump more than four feet off the four inches up four feet four inches off the ground it just that's the thing about offensive line play like you can get it done so many different ways you can and that's kind of like what i think about the position is that man like you got to find your way and like don't let anybody tell you because you're not fast enough strong enough i know plenty of guys that couldn't

bench crap but you know what they could find ways to play the game like that's just the truth you know and so i think you have to find your way and never let anybody put any boundaries on you and what you're capable of. And I think that's the thing. I see guys come in that are freaks in nature that don't make it. I see guys that, you know, end up playing pretty well and find out who they are. But then there's guys who you're like, man, I don't know, athletically, this guy has an athletic bone in their body,

but they just know how to stay in front of people and they know how to block people. And so I think that's, what's really cool about our position is there's no one shoe like, man, it's it there's so many different ways to do it and execute it. And I just hope that O-line coaches continue to embrace that mentality, that there's so many different guys that can play this game. Don't just be looking for one way to do it. All right, let's end with this. Who's your favorite

young offensive lineman to watch right now? Young, you can be a couple of guys to watch. Who's your, like, you watch, you're like, dude, this guy, young cat is good. You know, obviously, I think it's fun to watch some of these top guys in Sewell and some of those guys. I mean, I've always loved Slater. He just, I don't know, he's just so smooth, man. And I hated seeing him get hurt

because I got to see him in the opener and talk to him a little bit. But, you know, I think for me, I think the young guys, obviously I'm gonna pay attention to tackles, but Lane's one of my favorites right now for the older guys, just because, I mean, just dude, it's just, it literally looks like the guys out there just sipping coffee and smoking cigarettes and, like, playing football at the same time. Because he does that – he jumps out of his stance and he just kind of, like, hangs out there. I remember one time we were at Masterminds this summer.

We were talking to Lane. And we're talking about the double under, right? Because, like, he's a double under guy. So, for those who don't know, it's basically you take both your hands and you come up, like, underneath the defender, essentially, right? From bottom to high he's a double under guy. So for those who don't know, it's basically you take your both your hands and you come up like underneath the defender essentially, right? From bottom to high. Not everyone can do it. You have to be a large human most often to do a double under. And I was like talking about some long arm thing. He's like, yeah, I don't care about that. Like my arms are longer than everyone else's. I'm not worried about it. Like, I'm like,

what are you worried about? I don't know. Like, I guess I'm a guy can knock my hands down. But he's like, I'm just so long, I don't care about a bull rush. I'm like, sorry, buddy. All right. Problem is no one else has. Yeah, exactly. Long arms are a big factor for a tackle. But I think, yeah, there's a lot of guys.

I think Avera Tucker in New York, man, God, it's been fun watching him kind of bounce all over the place and play well. But I think, to me, that's the exciting part is that I think everything in the league goes around. And I think right now we're headed back to like a version of maybe some physical football coming back to the game. And you watch some of these teams are going to run it and play defense or having success. And I really can't wait because I hope that continues. And we get back to some of these true monster mash duo power. Get some going because the second level and these other positions are just getting smaller and smaller so that's why more teams aren't just saying hey let's just

run the football and find ways to run it well i know that's why i think we're going back to not to get off track like 13 personnel because guys everyone's smaller now like you are you might as well just like line up with more tight ends you're gonna match with a 210 pound nickel safety like you can't match. That's for another podcast. But you're right. Everyone on defense is getting smaller to match everyone else. Andrew, I appreciate you joining us.

Great conversation. Glad we had this on Twitter. Glad to do a podcast. I'm glad we cleared the air about my lazy comment. It did bother me a little bit. I felt bad. I try to stay positive when it comes to offensive line play. I feel like there's too many negative people.

But I said lazy. I kind of felt bad I said it. I cleared the air. I feel like there's too many negative people. But I said lazy. I kind of felt bad I said it. I was making – I cleared the air. I feel better now that we talked. Thank you. I'm glad you got that off your chest, and now we feel good about it. Yeah, we talked. All right, buddy.

Thank you so much. You can find you Amazon Thursday Night Football. Are you doing anything else right now? That's it right now, baby. Thursday Night Football. Rocking the hoodie and the sport coat. O-line, baby. Let's go. I love it. Fantastic. All right, buddy. Thank the sport coat. Go line, baby. Let's go.

I love it. Fantastic. All right, buddy. Thank you so much. All right, man. All right. Thank you to Big Wave for coming on. Hope you guys enjoyed that conversation.

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