Geoff Schwartz Is Smarter Than You - Lamar Jackson Makes His MVP Case & FSU Fires Willie Taggart

Episode Date: November 5, 2019

Subscribe to The Athletic now for 40% off: theathletic.com/smarterthanyou Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jeff Shorts of Smarter Than You is brought to you by GameTime, your new go-to app for the best deals on last-minute tickets. Did you know NFL ticket prices tend to drop right before the game starts? GameTime tracks prices in real-time from thousands of trusted sellers and shows you all the best last-minute deals at prices up to 60% off. It takes only two taps to check out, an easy two-tap checkout. More than 12 million fans have downloaded the GameTime app and discovered the fastest, easiest way to get into the game. So head to the App Store or Play Store now to download GameTime

and score some awesome deals on last-minute tickets for sports, music, and theater. If you had to argue one over the other, what would it be? You really asking me that? I'm asking you that. One is on my team, and the other one's on another team, and you ask me who I think is the MVP. I'm curious.

God bless you, man. From the Athletics, I'm Jeff Schwartz. Lamar Jackson proves he's a Patriot Slayer. We update our MVP rankings, and Florida State sends Willie Taggart packing. Yes, we have a college football topic. I love it. It's Tuesday, November 5th, and this is Jeff Schwartz is smarter than you. Welcome into the program, everyone.

I'm going to get a big, humble serving of pie today after the Ravens dismantled the patriots and what i've said all along about the ravens we'll get into that as well um and uh for the first time on a tuesday on the free episode for everyone matt ford who normally does our thursday episode is in matt welcome the program and first let's mock producer gabe who decided to take a vacation in the middle of football season he's got a week nine bye week what a deal when's our bye week jeff february 10th that's right super bowl that's that's our bye week not that we haven't circled the date on our calendar or anything right dude i'll tell you what that week the super bowl week is one of the most exhausting weeks of the year like doing the media media stuff. I'm only there three days, and we will be, I assume, we'll have a lot of content from Miami this year.

I know I'll be down there. And it's an exhausting week of media appearances and just obligations and parties. It is Super Bowl, and I feel like I got to sleep for about three weeks after that. That's right, man. I don't know if The Athletic shared this with you yet. Super Bowl and I feel like I got to sleep for about three weeks after that that's right man I don't know if the athletic share this with you yet we'll be podcasting live from the 50 yard line during the halftime show oh wow yeah right right in the middle of uh of Beyonce's Beyonce

performance here go J-Lo J-Lo right J-Lo and Shakira so J-Lo Shakira Jeff Schwartz I mean what is a name name a better trio a more iconic trio than those three individuals right there. All right, Matt, let's start us off. It's going to be a rough topic for your boy here. I'm going to have to eat some humble pie here. That's true. But if it's any consolation, Jeff, I'm going to have to as well. Because on Thursday, I

said the Patriots were likely to go undefeated for the rest of the season. And that is incorrect. Lamar Jackson handed New England its first loss of the year. And congratulations to the Ravens and to the Ravens fans. What a great game for Lamar Jackson. So many. This is one of those rare sort of like take a palooza's a take equinox on twitter where everyone seems to want to weigh in about some takeaway from this game here are the two i think

they're the most or the most interesting number one everyone seems to be uh revisiting the drafts two years ago and saying hey i was right about lamar jackson you guys were all wrong about him remember when everyone thought he was gonna be a wide receiver or blah, blah, blah, blah. We get it. Lamar Jackson, he looks great. I don't know exactly what this game means yet. It's clear the Ravens have gotten off to a really good start to the season. They've gotten the last two weeks have been their best wins of the whole year.

So good for them. But I don't know if we need to put Lamar Jackson in the Hall of Fame yet. good for them but i don't know if we're all if we need to put lamar jackson in the hall of fame yet and the second opinion here i think that's been really interesting is tom brady looked really shaky in this game and he's looked kind of shaky all year uh people are still even in the broadcast it's kind of weird when you know al and chris are talking about man they really miss gronkowski here gronkowski's been gone now for eight weeks. Like, it's time to move on. They are working Mohamed Sanu into the mix, and he's already made an impact.

But Tom Brady just hasn't looked comfortable. I know it's partially the offensive line as well, but I kind of think he might be regressing at the same time. And that, to me, might be more interesting than whether Lamar Jackson is the next coming of Michael Vick. What do you think? So many thoughts here. So, for one, I was more interesting than whether Lamar Jackson is the next coming of Michael Vick. What do you think? So many thoughts here. So, for one, I was definitely wrong about this game also.

I thought that the Patriots defense would be able to handle this offense. And give the Ravens credit. They came out after a bye, very prepared. They took it to the Patriots. The Patriots tried many different ways to stop this offense. It did not work very well. But just so we're certain about this, Lamar Jackson had 224 total yards in this offense. It did not work very well. But just so we're certain about this, Lamar Jackson had 224 total yards in this game.

It wasn't like he had a 400-yard performance rushing a pass. Now, was he effective? Yes, he was very effective. But let's slow down on how great this performance was. Now, it's great in the sense because England's defense was playing at a historic level. Those are not my words, right? Those are football outsiders' words.

Those are the words you track and rank and profile teams, and they use, you know, their numbers are schedule-adjusted. So they were saying it's a historic defense. I was agreeing with them because they had played so great, and obviously the Ravens took it to them. And, look, again, congratulate Baltimore on this. We do this every year, Matt, where the Patriots lose a game or two last year was Dolphins Titans they lost to someone else too like uh the Lions or something and we freaked out again

and they were back where where they were I'm not worried about the Patriots uh and I'll tell you a couple reasons why just examples from this game about how this game was different because of a couple of errors that the Patriots normally don't make. So no one's really talking about this, and I think it's a very valuable moment in the game. The Ravens come out on the opening drive and just rip into the Patriots, right? Run the ball, run the ball, play extra pass, play extra pass, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

And they get down to the low red zone. They stall out. They've had issues in the red zone this year. They stall out. Now it's fourth and a yard and a half from the three-ish. And Harbaugh likes to kick a field goal. And for the Patriots' defense, it had to feel like a huge win for them. Like, okay, guys, we have never seen this offense before, really.

It's even different than when Kellen Kaepernick was running this sort of scheme. And we weathered the storm for the first drive. Three points, great. Instead, the Ravens, long snapper, does a little head bob. Patriots guy jumps off sides, encroachment, boom. Next play, Lamar Jackson scores touchdown. So what happened here? We obviously had a four-point swing.

But more importantly, the confidence swing that happened in that moment was huge for the rest of the game. The Patriots defense made an uncharacteristic mistake in that situation, which gives the Ravens a plus one, like, ha, we fooled you. We got you, right? We practiced all week, and we got you, and we scored

a touchdown because of it. Secondly, the offense feels now much better about the opening drive than it did. They only got three points. Even though the touchdown was only two yards, Lamar Jackson was strutting in the end zone. Their confidence was high. The Patriots' confidence was a little down a little notch because of that.

It's a small moment that I think if most times the Patriots are not jumping off sides there, the game might be different. You know, Edelman fumbles. It happens. It was returned for a touchdown. The Ravens f. It happens. It was returned for a touchdown. The Ravens fumbled twice. It was not returned for a touchdown. So I think there's some instances in this game that make it a little closer than the final score.

But I do not want to take away the credit that Baltimore deserves because they decided to go all in on Lamar Jackson. And we often see that coaches don't mold their team to their players. I think there are valid reasons why they don't do that. But generally speaking, it doesn't actually work out very well. But on the flip side of the Ravens, who said, we're going all in. And Matt, I do not think this offense is winning them a Super Bowl, especially with their defense not being as good as it used to be. But it definitely will get them to the playoffs. I mean, that it certainly will. And for new listeners or for listeners of just the Tuesday show

who don't check out the Thursday show just on The Athletic, I'm an unfortunate and miserable Washington Redskins fan. And I watched this Ravens offense, and it reminds me a lot of the offense helmed by Jackson's backup, Robert Griffin III, his rookie year in Washington, when they were the fourth best offense in the league. It didn't matter that the best players on the team besides Griffin were guys like Alfred Morris and Fred Davis and Pierre Garcon. The offense just kind of worked like it was a great scheme. It was so different from everything that everyone else was doing that you sort of had to prepare for it differently.

And the Patriots didn't have that chance. And the Ravens did. The Ravens came off a bye. John Harbaugh is a great coach off of a bye. He's a great coach at home. He's a great coach in primetime. This was, as some people would call it, like a kitchen sink game for the Ravens. And the Patriots, there ain't no.

They're heading into their bye this week. They were, you know, they're still integrating some pieces on offense. They're getting healthy. It didn't feel as important to them of a game, I think. And I think – go ahead. I think it was important for them, but in the grand scheme of things, probably not as important as it was for the Ravens. Yeah, I agree with that.

And I think that the thing – I mean, hopefully the RG3 and Lamar Jackson stories diverge immediately. And there's nothing in common with them other than they're both Ravens now. But like there is an expiration date with this kind of offense. Even Michael Vick, who's probably the best example of a quarterback who is as good or better of a runner than he was a passer. His team's never made it past the NFC championship. And we watched Lamar Jackson a runner than he was a passer his team's never made it past the nfc championship and we watched lamar jackson last year he was a rookie he's clearly gotten better this year we watched what happened when the chargers had a whole week to prepare for him it was a you know it was the playoffs things were different the defenses could throw every

single thing at them and lamar jackson was pretty ineffective and i want to say one more thing because i think people get criticized for calling lamar jackson a running quarterback his passing numbers just kind of aren't that impressive if you take away the dolphins game where he went for 300 plus and five touchdowns he's averaging 212 yards a game jeff seven touchdowns five picks it's not great no it's it's not great and i do think that there is um you know a lot of people i think feel and probably rightfully so that um lamar jackson was not given you know a fair kind of shake in in the whole thing especially you know with a couple people saying that he should be a wide receiver running back. And so they feel protective of him, right?

Where, like I said, rightfully so, they're rooting for the guy. And he seems like a great kid. I don't know any different. I mean, all we've heard is great stories out of him. And obviously, we hope that he is just as good of a kid as we think he is. So people are rooting for him in that manner. They feel he got disrespected by people like me who think they'd be good. I never said, I never once said I thought that he should be running back in the NFL.

That's unfair and that's crazy, right? Totally. right um but uh it's he's kind of making the haters like me have to shut up a little bit but to your point matt is that the i'm not sure in the end we're going to look foolish right now we do but if there's an expiration date on this offense and to remember lamar jackson gets hurt and i know people don't like to say that people say well you know quarterbacks get hurt in the pocket yeah yeah they do but like that's very rare and we've seen more more players get hurt running the football as a quarterback position so it's not crazy to think that um he will eventually get hurt i think you're right i think that the

the criticism or the fear maybe with jackson is like we've just seen this so many times before where you go all in on his amazing ability to run to lead this you know crazy motion pistol offense where you know you dominate the running game and you chew up the clock and in a game like this where you get ahead early that strategy really works but every time we've seen it it's it just hasn't lasted and i think that's what people were more concerned with well that that is that is like some of them some of the concern is that it has not worked all the time and that yeah he could obviously get hurt he could um we'll talk about that right we'll touch more on lamar jackson in the mvp conversation which we're going to do in a bit but i want to go back to tom brady for a second here because

we were texting during the game about this and i feel like we kind of had two different opinions you were in the like hey don't panic like this is just well i don't want to summarize your take for you but clearly i think tom brady looks worse um i think the gronk absence as i said is something that i can't believe they're still recovering from they didn't overcome that in the personnel department uh with you know running ben watson who's 100 years old out there uh i definitely think that when it gets to playoff time and you can't just rely on your defense to score four touchdowns a game like they're playing luke falk every week that he could be exposed a little bit more than we expect um well that it's it's hard to always count out to count out tom brady but i

definitely think there is um a possibility that we're seeing a decline in him slightly right his numbers are not as good as he definitely does not move as well he throws the ball away awfully quickly remember he's only had to do that for two weeks they actually worked i think pretty well together they did the other night. And he's going to end up getting Nikhil Harry back and possibly like Isaiah when their left tackle will come back at some point. And they're coming off a bye now. They're going to be fine. And we get in this issue.

It is an issue. It's a problem about the way we talk about the Patriots. We always say, well, this is the end. Guys, it's not the end yet. Like we want it to be the end. We as in you guys, I don't. I love watching the Patriots play. I think people want it to be the end so badly because they've dominated

for so many years now that any time there is slightly a crack in their armor, we're going to go attack them, right? Because we don't want them in the Super Bowl yet. We want something new. We want someone who's not the evil empire. But until proven otherwise, I'm picking the Patriots every single year now. If the Ravens beat them, the Chiefs, the Colts, whoever else beats them in the playoffs, sure. Next year, I might think differently about New England.

But as of right now, they're always the favorite to win in the AFC conference. I think that you're right until proven otherwise. All right, Jeff. So let's go back to Lamar Jackson here because after the Ravens beat the Patriots, there's a lot of people who are claiming that Lamar Jackson should now be considered a realistic MVP candidate.

Now, the case for Lamar Jackson is pretty obvious. The Ravens are 6-2. They have a rushing attack that is led by Jackson that no one seems to be able to stop, including the historic Patriots. The Ravens have a great offense, and their complementary pieces are Mark Ingram, Willie Sneed, and Mark Andrews. Like, that's pretty good. So I'm wondering, Jeff, do you think he belongs in the mvp conversation

and who do you have in your top five so great conversation here so we know mvp is typically the award for best quarterback on best team right do we agree on that yeah generally right now that's russell wilson i'm not on the best team, but on a great team. Russell Wilson is playing out of his mind. He is doing a fantastic job. Best year of his career. I don't disagree with anyone who would argue that Russell Wilson should be the MVP talk as of right now. He should be the leader.

I believe he's one of the quarterbacks to throw for like 21 touchdowns and one interception so far this year. He's had a great season. And I'm not taking anything away from him as far as that. So if it's best quarterback on best team or best quarterback on good team, sure, Russell Wilson does that. But if it's the most valuable player award, the most valuable player value, it's Lamar Jackson.

He's their best runner and their best passer. And if you look at their rosters, they are very similar in roster. Everyone says to me, well, the Ravens have more talent. Do they have more talent? An offensive line, possibly. But are you telling me that on defense, Clowney, Wright, Wagner, the Ravens don't have any player who's that good on defense? Maybe Thomas.

Thomas would be fourth on that list. So there also is a talent discrepancy in this that's much closer than we think. There is not very much of one between the Ravens and the Seahawks on defense. So because people say, well, if Russell Wilson didn't play, they'd lose all their games. Well, so would the Ravens. So here's the way I look at this, Matt, and tell me if I'm crazy. Also, I'll go with Wilson one because he'll probably end up being on this list at the season end.

I'll go Lamar Jackson a very close two because of his ability to win games with both his arms and his legs. Remember, it's a valuable award. It's very valuable. It's more valuable, in my opinion, than Russell Wilson is. Three, Aaron Rodgers, because why not? Four, Christian McCaffrey. McCaffrey's doing a fabulous job on the Panthers. He's doing great, but he's a running back.

He has no chance to win this. When J.J. Watt did not win this award like four years ago when he had the best defensive season of all time, I figured that this was only going to be a quarterback award. If you're a wide receiver, if you're a running back, you need to have like 2,000 yards on the ground to be able to even be considered in this award. Well, I agree with that, I I think your your ingredients are right but your order is just way wrong to say

that the thing about Lamar Jackson is you've they've the Ravens have put him in a very specific situation where he is built to succeed and I think that's more of a credit to his coaches than to him like if you put lamar jackson on the texans or on the seahawks or on the packers would they be as good like no he wouldn't be able to change your office system right which i don't think makes him more valuable i think that makes him very specifically valuable i think that if you look at he's very specific to what the ravens need yeah i understand that but here let me let me finish my point here if you put russell wilson on any nfl team right now they're a contender for the super bowl it doesn't matter even like not the dolphins but maybe not they're not out of it if russell wilson's on the team i'm not sure if

that's true with anybody else on that list with the exception of Deshaun Watson every single week puts that team in contention this week the way he played through that eye injury man like did you see that quote he said last week when he got kicked in the head and he reached for his helmet in the play did you see that no so he got he was it was two weeks yeah yeah he reached for his eye in the middle of the point through touchdown yeah he was like he thought his eye fell out in the middle of a play and then he threw a touchdown on that play like Deshaun Watson is doing things and I know he has I know he has DeAndre Hopkins but that offensive line is a mess Carlos Hyde isn't exactly Barry Sanders like I think he's done a Herculean effort so far this season and I'd be fine with

either either of those two guys I just think that with Jackson like maybe but he's not as good of a quarterback he's a great runner if you want to make the rushing argument like Deshaun Watson's third in in uh rushing yards for quarterbacks this year behind Jackson and Murray yeah like I just don't know where this would like you have to make a pretty specific argument for jackson that you to count out i thought i made it for jackson yeah i just i don't think i'm buying it like i think i by the way i i did forget uh deshaun watson in this conversation i put watson three mcafree four rogers five that's i i i erred on in that instance so zuri changing the changing the rundown. I do think that, I mean, yeah, Watson definitely belongs in it.

And I think I just assumed that you were going to say him. I mean, the value thing is interesting, right? Because, again, the Ravens and Seahawks have comparable defenses, right? Yards per play on defense. They're two tenths apart, right? One is averaging six and one is 6.2. two tenths apart, right? One is averaging six and one is 6.2. But I don't think that you're not putting enough weight, I think, to them designing the offense for him.

The question is not who's the best player. Now, if it is the best player, then yes, Russell Wilson should win the MVP. But as currently described, it's not. It's most valuable player. And if the ravens change their offense for a single player and that player is very good in said offense and they're six and two right now then i think he should be really considered for mvp i think the coaches deserve the credit for that no like the coaches but he's doing it though sure he's doing it though at least

give him credit for that oh 100 i'm putting him at number three in the mvp list what i'm saying is that like saying that he is succeeding within this like very structured offense i saw this with robert griffin and that year i thought he deserved mvp votes too and that was a different offense by the way too yeah but it was it was striking wimbler i was on the vikings team, that 76-yard touchdown run to win the game against us. I'm not sure that I've seen a crowd being more gleeful in a moment of victory than when that happened. It was the confluence of a lot of quarterback struggles that we thought were over. And that's, I think, why I can't get too excited about Lamar Jackson, just because when it feels too good to be true in the NFL, it often is. And hopefully that's not the case. What happened with Robert Griffin was the product of more than some bad luck. It was a bad field and a probably curse franchise. But anyway, back to this MVP conversation. I don't think that you can make any argument right now for anyone except

Wilson and Watson. If Jackson, if, if Jackson leaves the Ravens to like a buy in the playoffs. Okay. I'll listen to it. But I think when Wilson dude, 22 touchdowns,

one interception this year, third in the league in yards. They're competitive every single week. They've had a tough schedule. I'd really like to see him play the 49ers when it matters and to put him up against, you know, a really good defense. But I think it's got to be Wilson right now. Jeff, every time I put these rundowns together with Zuri, we try to avoid two magic words, Cleveland and Browns. But the Browns stay in the news even when there's nothing to talk about.

But I think we need to pile on for one more week. You look at some of these teams having success this year, Jeff. Look at the Bills. Pittsburgh, 4-4 without Ben Roethlisberger. But meanwhile, Jeff, the Browns are actually worse at this point than they were last year. Last year, they were two, five and one through their first eight. This year, they're two and six. Last year, they had Hugh Jackson, the worst coach in NFL history, according to most and

according to stats. But this week, Steve Weiss said, Steve Weiss from the NFL Network, great dude, said the Browns are committed to keeping Kitchens for the remainder of the season. Now, this to me is just absolute madness. The Browns are in a dark, dark place, and it's not getting better. In fact, it's getting worse. I want to get into one stat and three key pieces of evidence about that. The first stat, the Browns leave the NFL with 75 offensive penalties, Jeff,

and that's through eight games. So they've already had their bye. Numbers two, three and four on the list of most penalties on offense are all teams that have played nine games. They've played one more game and they still have fewer penalties than the Browns. But the three biggest stories from this week for Cleveland, Odell Beckham and Jarvis Landry had to switch their cleats at halftime because they violated whatever footwear policy the NFL has, which is just not a thing the Patriots would ever do. Right. Not a big deal. Who cares? But then they had to they had to cut their starting safety, Jermaine Whitehead, because he's threatening people on Twitter and not in the fun way that you do, like actually threatening people. And it's kind of scary way. Very dark. And then there was this there was this mic'd up package.

I don't know if you saw this. Odell Beckham saying on the sidelines that he couldn't get a pass to save his life. What is going on here? Odell Beckham, they traded all these picks for him. 31st in the NFL in receiving yards. One spot behind Leonard Fournette. Not great. They just lost to Brandon Allen.

Nothing is going the Browns direction firing Freddie Kitchens is the only place to start this and I don't know why they're waiting what are they doing well look the Browns are severely under coach and I told you this when Freddie was hired I didn't believe in this coaching staff it shows every single week is the penalties continue to mount up you lost to a quarterback who's playing his first ever NFL game. It's just atrocious coaching. And little things like players threatening to kill

people on social media and giving the address of the facility to a fan so he can catch his fade is a sign of an undisciplined team. Jarvis Landry and Odell Beckham wearing cleats that are not approved by the NFL or not approved for game use is a sign of a team that has lack of accountability. You know, the equipment managers, the coaches,

someone's supposed to realize they're not wearing the appropriate shoes. And really, on a lot of teams, it wouldn't even be an option because the equipment staff, the head coach, whoever it is, would make sure everyone knew the uniform policies. Everyone knew that you weren't allowed to wear shoes that were not allowed to be worn on the field for game day. And a lot of people, Matt, said on the internet, well, let him wear whatever shoes he wants. Okay, here's why you can't do that, all right? First of all, NFL's a deal with Nike. You have to wear Nike shoes. Secondly, this is not the NBA. It's not college basketball.

Being cool on the field is not something that I think a lot of NFL fans really care about. And I think they have an adverse actual reaction to this. Remember, Twitter and social media is a small minority of NFL viewers, right? A lot of them are not on Twitter. And if you came out, if you're the Browns, you came out for a game, and you had 22 starters, and five were wearing neon yellow shoes, five were wearing bright orange shoes, five were wearing white shoes, five were wearing black, and one guy's wearing a pair neon yellow shoes, five are wearing bright orange shoes, five are wearing white shoes,

five are wearing black, and one guy's wearing a pair of blue shoes. That would look terrible. It would ruin the product on the field. It would make people complain in a way that we see differently on social media. And that's why you cannot wear whatever shoe you want. You have to wear a Nike shoe, and it has to be the appropriate color.

To me, that's not a big deal. Just follow the rules. To me, I've never heard a player say, you know what, Schwartz, we've got to hold out because we can't wear the shoes we want to wear a Nike shoe. It has to be the appropriate color. To me, that's not a big deal. Just follow the rules. To me, I've never heard a player say, you know what, Schwartz? We've got to hold out because we can't wear the shoes we want to wear. It's just all a sign to me that Browns are very poorly coached and that as an organization, they don't know how to get the best out of their ballplayers. Jeff, that was the most I've ever paid attention to anyone talking about shoes

in my entire 31 years of life. So congratulations. But the fact, look, the Jermaine Whitehead thing, the footwear thing, like, it's hard to say, like, that's Freddy Kitchen's fault. Right. But we are. Because the problem is there's no accountability. Like, in any organization, I don't need to have played football to know this, okay? If your company has a good boss and there's a culture of accountability,

and if you do something that's as weird as what Jermaine Whitehead did, that there's going to be consequences. Like if that structure is in place, this kind of stuff just doesn't happen. And I think that whether it's kitchens or not, there is some issue with who is in charge. Why are we doing what we're doing? Are we on the same page? And they're clearly not. And the other thing that's kind of baffling, Jeff, you have all of these, they have a ton of talented, at least well-known, highly regarded players. And people kind of forget they're adding Kareem Hunt back to the mix this week. Kareem Hunt, not necessarily a great personality to throw into this dumpster fire.

It's like throwing a stick of dynamite into this. And I think that that has some real problem potential too. I don't know if this team needs to fire. I mean, this team does need to fire Freddie Kitchens, but I don't know if that's going to do anything. I think we might need a full-on exorcism at this point. You know, there's a whole lot to talk about here. As far as obviously Kareem went coming back.

It felt like they built this team without the engine, right? They have all the shiny parts. They have the shiny seats. They have the shiny wheels. They have the shiny paint. They have a great steering wheel they have good trunk space but they don't have the offensive line they don't have the engine right like they don't they didn't build this team in that manner they built the team with a lot of

flash and not a lot of substance and i think we're seeing that really be a problem because they don't have guys that like they like when things are going bad who's like their like leader like who is their guy they're like okay well this is our guy that's gonna go ahead and and make this you know make this right for us like who are they turning to in tough times i don't have a great answer i don't i don't know if anyone is that answer but couldn't so the offensive line saying that it's it's not it's not all the problem because i think baker may feel it's terrible in the pocket it's right the problem yeah i agree but i think yeah it's like it's like you know death by a thousand paper cuts here i like how

are they not isn't that another problem with coaching like can't you coach your offensive line to perform better throughout the season like can't they overcome that if they have so much firepower throughout the rest of their offense i don't understand yeah i i think you can but i think the coaching has been so bad that it's really hard to do that like i mean that's part of it too is like you just have i think you have bad coaching same answer if the coaching was was uh was different was better i think i feel differently but it's not that's the problem i think this is officially entering like biggest meltdown i think i can ever remember i mean the browns were such a feel-good story at the end of last year and like i don't know i for some reason

i guess thanks to red zone i wasphins Jets game this last week. I know you can you can call me a hero if you want, but, you know, that's up to you. And the Dolphins played. They're not good, but Dolphins played hard and they play every single game the last two weeks. They've been in it until the very end. And they're they're on the same page. Like there's no drama there, even though they've switched quarterbacks and now they're starting running back is suspended for PEDs. That's a team that is trying. They understand what they are and they're competing every week. And then you look at Cleveland and everybody's doing their own thing.

And it's it's actually kind of sad to watch. Like, I don't think anyone was rooting for the browns to fail this miserably it doesn't feel like a lesson their fans need to learn to be disappointed again uh i don't know man i don't know what else there is to say about this team but if they keep huge or hugh jackson freddie kitchens for the rest of the season they're just missing an opportunity to just wipe this thing clean yeah they're not gonna be able to wipe it clean right now i don't think like it's too late they're not going to be able to wipe it clean right now, I don't think. It's too late in the year to wipe it clean.

They have to wait until after the season. Well, it worked for them last year with Greg Williams. I understand that. I think it's just tougher than you think it is to just come in like that and be – it's tougher than you think just to come in and be that guy like right now, like go with a new coach. I mean, you're giving up on on freddie like that that that soon really yes are you not what like how can he turn this around it's more than an x's and o's problem

like everyone's doing 50 different things on the team he can't handle it no you're right i mean i i think that it's it's yes, he can't handle it, but I do think that you cannot fire him after eight games. You just have to let it ride for the season and then look to find someone else next year. So now that Lamar Jackson has slayed the mighty Patriots, the San Francisco 49ers are the NFL's only remaining unbeaten team. So if you support winners, you've got to check out

Here's the Catch on the athletic podcast network. David Lombardi, Matt Barrows, and former Niners defensive end Dennis Brown come with a weekly podcast guest covering the Sensual 49ers featuring regular guests and hard hitting analysis. All right, everyone back to the show. Okay, Jeff. So we're talking about freddie kitchens here i want to move on to another coaching change that did happen uh at fsu so i'm not a huge college football fan so maybe i'm just missing something here but florida state fired their head coach willie taggart formerly of your

oregon ducks jeff after one and a half seasons. FSU last year missed a bowl game for the first time since 1981, which is, wow, I mean, that's astounding. And this year, they were off to kind of a slow start, right? They're four and five, but they're not oh and nine, they're four and five. Now, they fire Willie Taggart in the middle of the season. And what's crazy about this story is FSU raised $20 million of private money to buy him out of his contract that he signed 23 short months ago. You think about how short of a time that is in college football. His two recruiting classes, they probably barely even played. I mean, these are freshmen and redshirt freshmen and sophomores. We didn't even really get to measure

his impact. These are Jimbo Fisher recruits. So I'm so confused how Willie Taggart can get fired and everyone in college football can be like, yeah, you know, he wasn't doing a good job at FSU. They should be a better program than this. Like, yeah, they should. I get it. But why would you pull the plug on this guy in the middle of the season? How does that help you in the long run? Well, it helps you in the long run

because there's early recruiting now in college football so there's a recruiting period that comes up in the middle of december where you know if willie tagger is recruiting for florida state and you know he's obviously going to be fired if they went six and six let's say then you don't want them part of the program during the recruiting process now you have the issue of course of finding a coach very quickly, and there's talk about Mark Stoops and Mike Leach. Mike Leach would be amazing. So we'll see where they end up. So I have a couple things about college football that I just don't quite understand.

One is how and why coaches are so emotional on the sidelines. Even coaches of teams that aren't even in the playoff hunt, they're so emotional on the sidelines. They even coaches of teams that aren't even like in the playoff hunt, they're so emotional on the sidelines, yelling and freaking out and screaming. And the urgency of coaching to me seems way over the top of what it should be. And part of that is how we do not allow coaches to get even two years in a program. It takes three or four years to build that program. You need your own recruits. You need to be able to show improvement in the roster.

And I generally will say keep a college coach a year longer to see if he can improve than get rid of him a year early. But I will say in the Florida State situation, I think he's so underwhelmed what they thought they were getting from Willie Taggart. And there has not been much improvement on the young players. And they felt that now was the right time to pull the plug. And so that's why this decision was made.

I agree with it only because of the recruiting period coming up and knowing that something needs to be done before that period. If you were not going to keep him through the season, but Florida state has got to be better. I mean, they're, they're a blue blood, you know, program and they've been bad for quite a few years now.

And so I understand that's why they're rid of them. And lastly, we don't know this yet, but something will come out eventually about why he was fired so early. Like, like something more than just, I hope he didn't win enough games. Like we're going to find out that something behind the scenes was not going

well. The Mata illegal, but the way he treated players or coaches or something else is going to come up to where they felt this was needed to do now. Well, that would be a shame. And rather than speculate, I'm just going to,

no, no, I don't know what it's going to be. I just think that this is what you feel like happens from time to time, right? Well, I guess. But the stated reason that he was fired was the athletic director said six and six. What was his exact quote? It was six and six isn't good enough.

And it's like, okay, that's fine. Florida State is one of the best programs in the country i understand that but i guess by saying you're going to uh play ahead for the early recruiting period in december you're basically bailing on two and a half recruiting classes anyway like he recruited two classes at fsu he signed a six-year contract every single person who said yes to FSU had that if they're good enough to play there they had to turn down a Miami and LSU Florida Oregon or whatever like you're basically saying to those kids like hey sorry and by the way they have the I think the 15th best recruiting class coming in this year already to come play for him.

You're basically saying, sorry, guys, we're going to wipe the slate clean with him now so that we can look ahead to our next class. Like, you're always trading one thing for another. And this isn't the Cleveland Browns in the NFL where everyone's a professional, everyone's compensated. It's clear that the Browns have more talent on their roster than they've put up in the win-loss column this is college football and like you hired a 42 year old head coach last year his best season ever was a 10 and 2 year at USF it was this wasn't an immediate result hire that can't be how it was framed when they hired him this is one of those they're hoping for the next Bobby Bowden or what Jimbo Fisher was going to be where you're going to build a program for years and years and decades to cut the cord this

early it just feels so bizarre and so unfair to all the kids who didn't even get a chance to play all these freshmen and registered freshmen and stuff like that just it sucks for them I feel really bad for them well yes in that sense yeah because you know you don't know the new coach is going to like them or try to bring in other guys to take their spot. But, I mean, Matt, I have not seen a bunch of improvement in talent development over the last couple of years on our floor. Part of this is the development of talent. You can be bad in your second year, but we're not seeing him develop a lot of talent.

And that's sort of the issue. Well, what's the expectation was the expectation for them to be a national title contender this year was it to be a top 25 team this year like i don't know i think that florida state made many mistakes here and the first one was they got blindsided by jimbo fisher leaving uh and i think you know that probably hurt a lot deeper than they realized and then they hire the hot young coach who spent one year at Oregon it didn't seem like Oregon was that sad when he left I mean am I wrong about that no no I mean I was upset because I didn't think Oregon was like a one-and-done program but not not like upsetting it seemed a little bit weird

that they were like yeah okay go ahead like i think that they just like the way that you can go all in on a coach and then oh no we're done it's halfway through the season this shouldn't happen in college like it just shouldn't it's it's different than the nfl these are kids the expectations should be different and like yeah i get it he wasn't doing a great job but that doesn't mean i just, I just find it so strange. I don't know why. Well, it's strange because it doesn't happen very often in like year two. And that's, that's, that's true.

That's part of it. It's like, you're like, Oh, Oh crap. It's happening year two. Normally again, like, you know, we see whether it's it's what's a Scott Frost at Nebraska or Chip Kelly. I mean, you typically get like a little bit of, of time to figure it out, but obviously in this situation, they didn't feel that that they're going to give them any sort of

opportunity to figure it out. And I'm telling you, I think we're going to find out more as the time comes, whether or not there was something else happening behind the scenes. All right. Well, more to come there. But short version, Jeff, are you saying Freddie Kitchens should not get fired and Taggart should have been? Just to keep track of it.

I mean, Freddie Kitchens will get fired very quickly. But I don't know when that's going to be. But he'll be fired at the end of the season in my opinion. Yes. Well, we have more fired coaches. It's kind of a, it's kind of a crappy topic to keep talking about,

but we have more of that coming up in our next segment, which is my debut on over under. So Jeff, I'll leave this off. the first piece of news and this actually broke during our recording session uh Tuesday afternoon the first question Cam Newton's remaining games with the Panthers over under 0.5 so it was just announced that Cam Newton's going to be missing the rest of the season with this foot injury. Really kind of surprising.

It felt like he was going to come back, at least from the outside. So what do you think? Is he ever going to play for the Panthers again? I don't think so. Whoa. Why? That's not crazy to say, is it? I think it.

I mean, this guy was the MVP three years ago. ago yeah i don't i don't i mean he's done do you have any more there or well so here's here's why and we i think we've i thought we've talked about this like on a bunch of podcasts now so it's like it's not like anything that's like super new this is something that happened with andrew luck where we get into a situation that the weight of rehab and the mental grind of kind of always being hurt is taking its toll on Cam. And he'll be now hurt for like three straight years, basically like three straight off seasons. And I think that he is probably over that whole process.

And when you're over that whole process, that means that you're most likely you're just going to retire. We see now that so many guys, not so many guys, but I guess so many guys are getting paid now at such a rate where it just was not something that happened many years ago, where Cam, JJ, W what like they don't have to play to earn money. They have plenty of money and they have plenty of money off the field. And I just think Cam's getting to a point where he's getting so beat up that I don't know if he wants to play anymore.

I also don't know who's going to sign him. I know that people have said, well, the bears might sign him. I don't know, man. Here's the thing about Cam though. It's like, if you are a franchise that wants a quarterback, Cam is better than Trubisky, duh. But can you trust him to be healthy? If you sign him to be your starting quarterback,

how do you trust him to be healthy? Also, does Cam want to play on a lower-level deal? These are answers that I don't think we have – I don't think these are questions we have answers to at the moment. We will eventually. But I think that's also part of this as well. That's a really fair point. He has one year left on his deal next year.

The Panthers can cut him and only have $2 million of dead cap. They saved $19 million next year by cutting him. And, I mean, I don't know if Kyle Allen is necessarily the future for them. Well, that's ultimately the question, right? I don't think he is either. So they're going to have to find something to do with Allen after the offseason. Wouldn't you say, though, potentially, that this is a way to save Newton for next year? I mean, he has like a Lisfranc injury i think or something like that so you know he could probably rush back in a couple weeks and get

him out on the field and play it 60 or whatever this feels a little bit like a mutual hopefully i'm i'm being optimistic because i love cam and i want him to stay in carolina because he's the best like wouldn't isn't it possible that they're just shutting him down so that he can finally be healthy for next year uh because he hasn't been as you said for the last two I mean it's definitely a realistic way to look at it um but I uh I think that's a tough I it feels like it's a tough sell to make. What if you finish 6-10 this year and Rivera and David Temper gets rid of you? There's a chance that if they don't make the playoffs this year

that we could see a situation, like I said, where the coach is relieved of duty. I mean, he's trying to win now. I don't think that he's saying, well, let's wait for next year. I think that if Cam was able to play, he'd play. And I think that that's part of the concern right now is that he just is, he can't, he's not healthy. Well, we'll see.

There's a giant bee, by the way, floating in my office right now. How about that? Like a black cat that was in MetLife last night. A giant bee is just zooming through my office right now. Well, we're going to hold our breath that you could make it through that. Let's move on to another piece of breaking news that happened during the show today. Nick Foles will be taken over as the Jags starting quarterback after their bye week when they get back from London.

week when they get back from London. So this question, Jeff, over under, let's say two and a half wins for Nick Foles in the rest of the season. They're four and five. The rest of their schedule is at Indy, at Tennessee, Tampa, Chargers, at Oakland, at Atlanta versus Indy. Do you like the move? So my take on this is oftentimes we worry in football about like personal decisions, right? Like, oh my God, Gardner Minshew or Nick Foles? Like who's going to be the guy? What's going to happen when Foles gets back? And then all of a sudden Minshew has like two bad games in a row and it makes the decision very easy, right?

Nick Foles is coming back in to save the day, as he should. They paid him a ton of money. I would say that they're over this win total right here. I mean, these are all winnable games by Jacksonville. I mean, the South Foles played well at least for a quarter, right? So Indy, Tennessee, Tampa Bay, Chargers, Oakland, Atlanta, and Indy. Those are definitely situations where they could win all those games. Now they probably won't, but I could definitely see them going three and four in that time getting over that 2.5

well that's not exactly a ringing endorsement uh but i do think you're probably right it's this is a tricky one man i mean gardner minshu if you kind of have to play foals and even if he's like you want him to be good no matter what, but if he's awesome, then I guess you maybe think about trading him. They could have a problem down the road, but I think they had to do this. But I don't know. I mean, other than last week, they laid a stink bomb in London and put up three points, but they've been pretty good with Minshew, man.

The problem is, Matt, is what do you do with Foles? You pay them all that money. You can't just let them sit. You're basically $40 million a year. You got a 40 million guarantee. You got to play him. And if he's great, then maybe you think about trading him. I mean, I don't know if it's possible with the contracts.

Yeah, but who's going to take the deal, though? The Bears. A million teams. If he's awesome. I guess so. The Bears could. Yeah, maybe. But at that price tag, probably not, though.

I feel bad for Bears fans. They're going to be at the apex of every quarterback rumor ever, including anyone I can think of. Where we were talking about wins. Let's go to the next over under here. So everyone's talking about these frisky L.A. Chargers, also four and five over under Chargers wins for the season. Jeff, eight and a half.

They are four and five. They're coming up against Oakland, Casey at Denver at Jacks. They still Minnesota, Oakland and then Kansas City. Think they can get five out of that. I think they lose the next two games, though. I'd say under. So you're not buying this Chargers or Sargents? Not really.

They're so beat up, dude. That's perfect. They're so, so beat up. I would say no here. I go under. Okay. So you're not buying the – I mean, they beat Green Bay pretty good. I mean, Aaron Rodgers, I don't think I've ever watched him struggle that much in his career.

I think it was more of just Green Bay having a stinker. So no credit to the Chargers for holding Aaron Rodgers to 100 yards and three quarters? Yes. That's what I'm saying, yes. Okay. I guess the argument ends there. All right, let's do another. This one, Jeff. Backup quarterbacks to win a playoff game this season. Let's set the over-under at 0.5. I'm going to set the over-under at.5. So now we've got Kyle Allen on a potentially playoff-bound Panthers team. We'll see what happens with Gardner Minshew.

Mason Rudolph, Tannehill, Matt Moore, all these guys. There's so many chances. Will any of these backup quarterbacks end up sticking around and winning a playoff game? Let's see. I'm going to look at this list I don't I don't think so win a playoff game that's

that's awfully hard to do um I would lean toward no you know Bridgewater's not gonna be playing so that's not a concern Moore won't be playing

um I don't think Kyle Allen will get in you know a lot of these guys aren't playing right now I love how you put LL so that's not a concern more won't be playing um i don't think i'll get in mason you know a lot of these guys aren't playing right now i love how you put ll that's daniel jones i would say that brissette possibly but he's a starter in my mind right i mean he's been the start all season i know he's a backup at the end of the season but i'd say no i'd say under the the 0.5 here okay well we'll see what happens with brian hoyer and whether he ends up taking the reins over in indy anyway um let's go to the social mailbag jeff

all right jeff so our social question this week this came when you replied to a tweet about uh about the chargers potentially moving to London. And, uh, your joke was that that would be a tough daily commute for Phillip Rivers. It was just a perfect joke. Um,

see rides in a limo from San Diego to LA every day. Um, so junior at junior zero four 13. Looks like a nice guy from his little avatar, Jeff. Uh, he, he says maybe a dumb question.

Love the caveat. If a team were to ever move to London, how would the scheduling work? Don't teams always get a buy after going across the pond seems foolish all the way around. What do you think? Well, that's,

you actually do not have to take a buy after London. They, they typically do last year. The Colts did not, they don't take a buy. So the way it would work in my opinion, in the chargers wall, we've been recording this podcast,

put out a couple of tweets and their owner said like, I think he even cussed in a, in a tweet, in a quote saying he's not doing that. They're not moving. I think the way it would work was this, is that when you want a road trip, either be a two or three week road trip.

So you'd go like to the West coast, you'd fly or three games. Like you fly, you play the giants, the Niners and the Browns and fly like you'd fly you play the giants the niners and the browns and fly back home to london and play three home games which seems pretty doable would you as a player i hate it be yeah it would suck right it's be on the team or to be in that team's division would be terrible the what to be in that team's division would be terrible it would suck yeah and the

chargers like if the chargers there's a lot of money there but i mean it can't be the chargers like think about how unfair that is for the i guess vegas raiders and the broncos like how long of a flight that is if they were in the afc east like that i guess would be okay because that flight isn't quite as far but that would be so unfair if they had to fly all the way there it's like an 11 hour flight or something agreed yeah that would be tough i don't know i don't see it i have a bonus social question jeff um you got into an argument with some guy on twitter because uh there was a video posted of khalil mack not having trick-or-treaters at his house um in chicago and the internet got pretty upset about it and uh you you felt pretty strongly about this one yeah khalil mack did not want to hand out

candy get over it everybody i know he hired a security guard he doesn't want people like you to walk into his freaking house and ring his dang doorbell. Look, the whole like light off porch BS stuff. No one's going to honor that in his neighborhood. They're going to go up to his house and knock on his door. He don't want to be bothered. So he told me he hired a security. I said, don't come to my house. And then, and then people like, well, you should hand the security

out your hand out candy. Who cares? Go next house. Why are you entitled to candy? I think if Khalil Mack had gotten a few more sacks this season, people would be letting this go. How much of a loser do you have to be, Matt, to go on Halloween as your kids are getting fistfuls of candy

to go on social media and whine about Khalil Mack not handing out candy I look man Bears fans are pretty sad and it's about to get cold there the days are getting shorter you got to let them have this one Jeff Khalil Mack he's making 150 million dollars he could buy a variety pack of nerds to hand out. The money is not the problem. Who cares about money? Yes. All right. Let's we've now we've now jumped the shark, Jeff. Let's get out of here. This topic is so stupid.

Entitled, entitled to ask people that want freaking candy from a football player. If there's anyone else's house, they just move along all right matt i love having you on our free episode today thank you for for joining us on a tuesday as usual i appreciate your reviews your comments um your concerns at jeff schwartz on twitter you can also leave a review on itunes i believe our numbers are growing i appreciate everyone listening and passing along the word. Have a great

couple of days. We'll be back on Thursday. Until then, take care, everybody. See ya.