Geoff Schwartz Is Smarter Than You - NFL Offseason Program and NFL Draft w/ Matt Bowen

Episode Date: April 15, 2021

Geoff is joined this week by ESPN's Matt Bowen go in depth on the NFL Draft's defensive players. In addition they discuss the changes to this offseason's requirements, their opinions on Mac Jones' draft rising draft stock, and how to evaluate QB prospects. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's Thursday, April 15th, and this is Jeff Schwartz of Smartly with me, Jeff Schwartz. Very simple episode today, guys. Talking to Matt Bowen, former NFL safety, works for ESPN now. Fabulous on the matchup show. We're going to go over all the defensive guys in the draft we spent last week talking to Dane Brugler about mostly offensive guys. We will talk on the quarterbacks. We'll touch a little bit on the NFL offseason and the changing of the rules

and how that might affect younger players. And we're going to cover it all. Matt's fantastic, shares stories from his time playing, all of that. We'll get to that right now. Welcome in Matt Bowen, seven years in National Football League and the analyst for ESPN and matchup show. Matt, can we get the matchup show a little bit earlier in the day, please? Well, I'll tell you what. Later in the day.

How about this, Jeff? For the draft, we have two primetime shows, okay? April 21st, April 27th. They're going to be on at night. I don't know the exact time yet, but they'll, you know, it'll be on primetime TV on ESPN and ESPN2. So you will get some better times for that. But I understand during the season, yeah, it's early.

It's a DVR show on Sunday morning. You've got to set your DVR. It's a fantastic show. And I think everyone should watch it because it makes you a smarter football fan. Real quick, before we get going on the draft, I want your Wikipedia. I was just looking at some things. And you said your friends have edited this. And I would like to read you the opening paragraph real quick of your wikipedia which you have not it says here that

you were drafted by the rams 198th overall in the 2000 nfl draft great congratulations of course also the last pick before tom brady considered the best player from that draft the winningest player in nfl history the best quarterback of all time they and had won the most Super Bowls of any player. That's the next line in your Wikipedia biography. I'll tell you what, that's kind of, you know, I was just a guy in the league. I wasn't very good. So when I talk about being in the league, that's the first thing people ask is,

where were you drafted? You know, everyone asks you that, Jeff, right? Yeah. And I said 198 of the 2000 draft. And immediately people say, well, Tom Brady was 199. So that's kind of what they're going for. You're drafting the same draft as Tom Brady. That's great.

Before we get to the draft, we're going to cover a lot of the defensive guys, which is a position that you played. And I still need help learning about secondary players and whatnot. But before we get to that, there's news that no NFL teams are basically basically gonna have offseason program again right the nfl players are boycotting volunteer workouts which is their right to do right but they're doing in mass we've seen players sit out every now and then but they're doing it in mass and we were both late round

draft picks you were the sixth round i was seventh round i needed the offseason program to be better and at my job. Do you think this hurts the young guys a lot? Because I think it does. I think it does. I would say, Jeff, the younger players and also some established veterans. I mean, I go through my career. And when I was in St. Louis my second season, in Green Bay,

my last year in Buffalo, even in Washington after my first two years, I needed to be in the building, right? You need to have your face in the building every day just to make the football team. And obviously, I think there has to be a fine balance of having no offseason with the offseason that we had, especially when I had

in the early 2000s. Jeff, we used to come in mid-March. I was part of the... I was drafted in 08 so i was still the two cbas ago march 15th show up you were there for lifting and you remember jeff we had coaches just make names up like oh it's quarterback school this week what does that mean it's just to go on the field that's all it meant just make stuff up so you can lift in the morning have two hours of meetings and go out for two and a half hours of practice. And you know back then there wasn't those rules about contact.

So you were doing one-on-one pass rush. Oh, yeah. DBs versus wide receivers. And sometimes during team, you know, it wasn't tackling, but it was physical at times even. So they really grinded you up under the, like you said, two CBAs ago. So I think there needs to be somewhere in the middle. Okay.

I don't think players need to report mid marks like we did. I don't agree with that. I don't think you need 20 OTAs. Back then, Jeff, too, the mini camps were two practices on Friday, two on Saturday, and one on Sunday. You had two days for mini camp. So I don't think you need all that. But I do think you need to be on the practice field.

You have to find a way to be on the practice field in some regard. And especially for units like we play, you know, the offensive line, you need to be on the field together. And the secondary, all that pre-snap, post-snap communication, the different calls you make, the different techniques, you need to be on the field together to do that stuff. But, you know, to go back to your original question, if he has a six-round pick, if I didn't have i make the team i don't know if i can make the team in

that situation and then later as even as an established veteran i needed to be in the building i needed to have my face in front of the coaches and be there every day even it was for just lifting i don't think office and program is that bad i don't know why the players are so against doing it like i enjoyed especially the new officers and program it's four hours a day for the first five five weeks it's three four days a week i believe for then it's like six hours a day i liked being around my teammates i liked working out with the guys now are you gonna get a better workout at your at your private gym yes 100 but but being around your teammates you know that

camaraderie you know i was often learning new playbooks as well because you know if you hear you heard in the off-season program you hear at mini camp you hear training camp like being there to to visibly see the board to write notes i think the virtual stuff man these young guys i feel bad but the veterans they don't they don't want to do it don't, they don't have to. And I don't know if they're, they're really worried about getting sick or just using this as leverage to just not go. I think it's maybe the latter, but more power to my guests. Right. They're right. Right. And you have your union too. And we have the backing of the union.

That's important as a player. It is. And I think you're going to see more of this shit. You know, there's more teams coming out. I think it's going to continue. The players do have power in that situation. I mean, as we're talking right now, actually, it was announced that the NFL has laid out their three-phase offseason program. Starts next Monday. All virtual meetings, weight rooms open May 17th through 21.

No contact on the field. Drills allowed. Meeting still virtual. Then May 24th through June 18th, 10 OTA days plus a mandatory minicamp. So there is some – that feels like a great schedule, right? Yeah, it does because you're still going to get the time in the field, which you need, and it's not overwhelming. Again, it's not a four-month off season, which we both agree you don't need,

but you do need some time on the field. And anyone would say that. I think every veteran would say that. They might not say it publicly, but you need your reps. You need your reps in the summer. I talked to a lot of veterans who love the training camp last year where it's basically no hitting whatsoever. But, you know, those guys that have played eight, nine, ten years,

they don't really need much training camp, honestly, at that point in their careers. Did you feel the game was better last year? People have said that. The NFLPA said the game was better. I think the play was better than expected, considering we all expected some sloppiness. But it didn't feel any better than any other season.

No, I don't think so. I was, like you, Jeff, I was surprised at the quality of the level of play. It was good. There level of play was good. There's no question about it. And that did surprise me, given the amount of time that teams had to miss practice, shut down practice. Just a unique schedule of last season. But I don't think the play was something that you said, now we have to change everything. You know, and football is different.

You know, when you started, and obviously when I started, you had two-a-days. Yeah. Two-a-day practices. I remember when Joe Gibbs came back to Washington, Joe Bugle was our all-line coach. Oh, yeah. I mean, Jeff, that all-line was on the sled for four straight weeks. And that's just what old-school coaching was.

And how about this, Jeff? We did nine on seven under Coach Gibbs with no running back. So we just run into each other. He would tell like, hey, we're running power to the right for the offensive line. And you just read the guard. If the guard pulled, you treat it as power. Yeah. And I was, we played a lot of quarters

under Greg Williams. So Mike Sellers was our fullback. You know, Mike was Mike is what, 265? Every play. And so I just line up at eight yards off the ball and run into it. What are we doing here? That's what we did. We went on and on for weeks.

It was so old school. It was so different because the year before, Jeff, I had Coach Spurrier. So with Coach Spurrier, nine on seven will get cut short. Special teams will get cut short. More seven on seven will get cut cut short special teams get cut short more seven on seven more when it passes so it was a lot different in terms of just the physicality and the way practice over coach gibbs that was counter trick for four weeks you never got to play in the new cba where we had you know days off and and whatnot no more double days and like i used to think to myself you know in 2015 i'm with the giants and days and like i used to think to myself you know

in 2015 i'm with the giants and we have single practice like what do we what do we do on double days you just sucked it up right you just did it there was no other option you just woke up in the morning we were at with john fox we were 9 a.m full pads 6 30 p.m and just uppers and then you come back next day and have the same thing again we well we had two one two one two one so you know we come back next day go full pads at 3 p.m then go back in the morning 9 a.m full pads like i just think that used to be the norm we just hit each other for weeks on end yeah it was the norm and don't forget you had the meeting at night too oh yeah yes after dinner meeting then your team meeting your own d coordinator meeting then your position meeting

it's 11 o'clock you're going to bed you're waking up at six going back to breakfast and then going out to practice it's just it's just non-stop i always tell people this um i don't know if you went away for camps but we i went away every year but my last two okay so that's all gone now too pretty much yeah i always remember when my rookie year at the St. Louis Rams, we had a training camp at Western Illinois University. The most miserable feeling was coming home from a road trip on a Saturday. You just played a Saturday night preseason game. You would go to your apartment or wherever you're living,

sleep for a couple hours, and then you'd have to drive back to Canaan. Oh, yeah. Drive back. Have a meeting that night to watch the film, and then you get up monday and just start all over again my least favorite thing about that so i with the panthers we went down to walford when i was in kansas city went up we went to st joe's in minnesota we went to uh i think minnetonka state or something minnesota state um and the worst was the day

off you got because it wasn't really like a whole day, right? So you practice. We'd have FanFest at the stadium at like 3 p.m. Done by 5. Your day off starts then, but it ends at 5 p.m. the next day. So you have to drive back to training camp. So you basically just get the morning and afternoon off. It just was so – and I think to myself now, we see players playing well without all that practice.

Were we doing it wrong, or that just the way that we were doing it back then? Because guys get ready now with far less practice. No, I don't know if we were doing it wrong. I think training has changed so much. Nutrition has changed so much. The way they monitor athletes has changed so much. I mean, there was no monitoring of our workload back then. It was just go. So I think it's better for athletes. Now there's no question about that because you can,

you can be so much more efficient in practice too. I think practice is back to a way too long, way too long. I mean, be more efficient in practice. Yes. I do believe you have to set your paths and you have to learn how to hit and block and tackle all over again, no matter how many years you play. And that's what training camp is for. But you don't have to do it at a rate where you wear each other out. We practiced one time.

We played. And for anyone who's been playing the NFL and has played a preseason game in Miami, it is the worst experience of all time, just because of the heat down there. And I remember with Coach Gibbs, we were in full pads before we got to play. In the baseball field. It was never fun to play on.

It was a baseball to play on. It was a baseball field back then. Whatever. Joe Robbie Stadium, I think it was. That was one of the worst experiences of my life. You had full padded practice. You get in the plane and go to Miami. So you're already dehydrated when you get in the plane.

And then you play the next night in that heat. And you just have no feeling left in your body when you're done. And you're doing it. And Jeff, you're doing this for a preseason. I know. We played there my second second year preseason game two at thunderstorm like lightning like it was just uh man the one thing that's interesting and we'll get to draft after this is that we're so we're seeing practice time decrease right decrease time the building decrease more care for the body increasing more more thought process to keep you guys healthy

but two things haven't happened. One is injuries on the whole have not declined. Now, last year we saw a concussion rate go down. I think a lot of it had to do with less preseason, okay? That is very fair. But so injury rate has not gone down. In fact, it's gone a little bit up. And then the length of career hasn't changed at all.

So the thought process was if we lower practice time lower time in the facility it would increase the chance that players play longer and that there's less injuries but we haven't seen any of that right so is it just the nature of football that all these changes are going to happen but in the end we're still going to get injured at the same rate and we're still going to play the average career at the same rate i think you're right jeff i think anytime you put a football helmet on you put yourself at. It's as simple as that. I mean, the game is just so physical. I think the game is faster, much faster when I play, much faster. So when you get athletes now who have more explosive traits

and have more top-end speed, I think you're going to have injuries. It's just even if you reduce workload, even if you're tracking what they're doing in the weight room, I think the weight room has changed. You know, when I played, it was, you know, your core lifts. It was squat and, you know, hand clean, power clean, bench, you know, living on that Olympic platform in the weight room. I think that's changed a lot too.

Guys train differently now too. But again, like to your point, the injuries haven't stopped. So I just think that's the nature of football. When you're at that level with that amount of athletes on the field and just i've always told this story you know it's customary when it comes to your position the offensive line one of the best athletes i've ever seen i played with orlando pace in st louis oh he was the i mean jeff you want to talk about athletic ability he could do everything we had a basketball court in the facility there. It was the best basketball player on the football.

I mean, he could do things in the basketball. You're saying this can't be possible for a guy that has this size. But you look at his athleticism, his movement traits. There's athletes at every position, at every position. Now, I wasn't one of them, but there are athletes. Yeah, I mean, they're everywhere. And that's the fun part about the game. All right, let's talk about the athletes coming into this draft because you obviously have studied all of them for your matchup show just in general because you enjoy the sport i want to get to the

defensive part a second i'll talk about quarterback real quick because i know you watch the quarterbacks too and love your perspective from the defensive side of the ball i do not understand the idea that the niners trade up for Mac Jones. So here's what people are saying. They're saying this. Well, Kyle Shanahan has worked really well with Matt Ryan. His dad liked Cousins. He wanted to trade for Cousins. He has Jimmy G.

And his offense is so good that it elevates average quarterbacks into being above average to maybe elite level in certain years. So let's draft Mac Jones because he fits that mold. My argument is why don't you draft a more talented player and let your offense make that talented player be even better than mac jones can be why is there fascination with drafting mac jones over a justin fields or trey lance i think it's a great question i agree with you jeff i agree 100 with you um now what i see and here's the thing about mac jones and all these quarterbacks when we talk about a quarterback

being rated ahead of the other quarterback doesn't mean that mean that, you know, Mac Jones isn't a first, he's a first round player. There's no question about that. The question you have here, Jeff, is he a top five player? Because I look at traits, you know, and that's what we focus on the matchup show. And Mac Jones doesn't have the high level traits in comparison to a Justin Fields or a Trey Lance. assuming that Trevor Lawrence goes one and Zach Wilson goes two. Let's just save that for this conversation. But what Matt Jones does have, I think he throws with anticipation. I think he throws with touch. I think he throws with location and accuracy. I think that's a big part of that offense. I think he can process well pre-snap and post-snap. Again, a big part of this offense, especially, you know,

Jeff, off the play action passing. Oh, yeah. When they hit that back foot, that ball has to come up. Right now, do you need a massive arm to be in that offense? I don't think you do. Because they will scheme their vertical throws down the field. They'll create windows. They're occupied defenders. They'll give you targets down the field to hit. I think it really is about

that ability to anticipate those windows that Kyle's going to scheme up for you. Kyle Shanahan within his offense. You can put the ball on the right shoulder and do it consistently. But off of that, I will say that I believe Trey Lance can do that. I believe that Justin Fields can do that. The reason I bring that up is because the guy from your school, Justin Herbert. I watched Justin Herbert's film last year.

You watched him too. And you look at Justin Herbert's film from last year, and you could say there were some concerns about his film last year but what there's not concerns about justin herbert is his traits and those are uncoachable traits i can't coach that i can't coach the side the moving ability the arm town and look what happened with justin herbert when you put him in a heavily schemed passing offense like he is with los angeles now you see the production because of the high level traits traits. And I missed on that last year, and I'm not going to miss again this year.

So when I'm looking at San Francisco, I would be in that position that I would draft Justin Fields or Trey Lance because of the traits. Those are, you know, Justin Fields was a five-star recruit. He was the number two recruit in the country behind Trevor Lawrence. And people say, well, high school doesn't matter. Well, it does because the traits, you have those traits.

You still have those traits. And I think in that offense, high school doesn't matter. Well, it does because the traits, you have those traits. You still have those traits. And I think in that offense, he would be really dynamic. I think Kyle would scheme him up. And what he also brings is the movement ability. And that's the thing with Mac Jones. You talk to people in the league, you talk to scouts, and that is one concern because the ability to escape and extend is still a very important tool in today's NFL.

Because you and I both know, Jeff, you can draw everything right in the chalkboard, right? It never plays out like that. Sometimes it does. But a lot of times, hey, maybe it's a tackle that gets beat. And you've got to step up and slide and get outside the pocket and create. Have that second reaction. But he's a runner and a thrower. I think that's what you get with fields and lands.

The trades convo for quarterbacks is very interesting. I think we've moved you get with fields and lands. The traits combo for quarterbacks is very interesting because I think we've moved to a different way we evaluate quarterbacks. You look at Josh Allen, right? He is a guy that had the physical traits but could not hit the broadside of a bar in college. And a lot of us, including myself, I don't know how you valued him. I said,

no chance the NFL. We have not seen the ability for a quarterback who is not accurate in college to become accurate. And the Bills did a great job working with him. Josh Allen worked hard. He got to the point last year to be MVP candidate. Justin Herbert, another example. Now, I'm close to that program.

The most are. And I just knew the offense wasn't very good as far as design. I said to myself and really anyone else, put him in a regular offense in the NFL. I think he'll be fine. Boom. He was fine. Are we getting to a point now where we almost have to not look at the college film as much?

Now, we still have to watch it, but we're moving toward traits now because quarterback coaches and OCs do a great job of tailoring their offenses to the quarterbacks, where for a long time it was, we're going to run what we run no matter what, and we're going to draft a Mac Jones to run that offense. But now it feels like these traits guys are having more success than ever before. Because look, the Bills schemed up a great offense for Josh Allen. There's no, you know, the Chargers, a great vertical offense for Justin Herbert to use his arm.

It feels like now we're moving to a point with quarterbacks where, you know, we've always said traits matter. But we kind of ignored them sometimes because of fit. Now it feels like that's out the door now. Traits are number one when evaluating a quarterback. I think you have a valid argument there, Jeff. I do. And that's what I say. You bring up a great example about Justin Herbert's college offense. Well, look

at Justin Fields' college offense, which I think is a good offense, but one of the things I hear about Justin Fields is that, well, he doesn't get off his first read in time. Well, I don't necessarily agree with that. I don't think that's true. I think you have to look at the structure of the offense.

In an Ohio State, again, a vertical-based offense, more longer-developing routes with wide receivers who have options or conversions within those routes. And a lot of times what Justin Fields is doing on tape is waiting for that primary read to show. He gets to the top of the break and get out of that break and throw the football. Okay, so is that a knock on him or is that just the offense he's playing in?

Because I look at him and say, okay, just like you said with Justin Herbert, you take those high-level traits, you put them in a heavily-schemed pro-style offense in the National Football League, now you're going to see that development take off pretty quickly. Because, again, it goes back to what we were talking about, those uncoachable traits. And I think Justin Fields can process. I think Trey Lance can process.

I think they can win pre and post now. When you put him in the NFL with NFL coaching, and Josh Allen, they brought up Jeff, that's a great example. Because everyone had concerns about Josh Allen coming out of Wyoming. It was all about the traits. And he had top 10 traits. He was a top 10 pick. And that's a sign of someone who wants

to be coached, who wants to be challenged, who wants to be pushed by NFL personnel because that's what Buffalo did with Josh Allen. They coached him hard. You can see the results. Again, like you said, in a very scheme passing offense in Buffalo. Very scheme. Brian Dable is one of the best play callers in the NFL.

When he gets man coverage, he will eat it up with alignment. When he gets man coverage, he will eat it up with skin alignment. When he gets zone coverage, he'll give Josh open windows. And a great example of Josh Allen from last year, I thought, was that you look at two of them. The Monday night game against San Francisco, I thought his best game was a pro. He was so dialed in.

His movement was great, both inside and outside the pocket. His ball location, his timing and rhythm. And you saw the arm tail. Then you go to the game against the Colts in the playoffs where things didn't work perfectly. And he had to play off schedule so much, all that second reaction. But that's where you saw a lot of the high-level traits as well. So there's two different situations there.

One, we're very schemed up. Things are going your way. And one, it's not going your way. And guess what? Now you have to play outside of structure. And I think you need that ability to play outside of structure. Another example I always talk about, Jeff, is Aaron Rodgers. You look at Aaron Rodgers last year,

obviously won the MVP of the National Football League. That's a very defined offense. And people say when I talk about defined throws, you're knocking a quarterback. No, you're not. Kyle Shanahan's offense is very defined. You're giving a quarterback defined reads and defined throws, right? But what Aaron Rodgers has that makes him a high-level talent

is when he has to go off script, when necessary, he can do it. When he wants to take the one-on-ones to Devontae Adams, the release is lightning quick, and he can put the ball wherever he wants to. So you add those things down to a high-level, scripted passing offense, what do you get? You get a ton of production i think we sometimes in our business you know we knock players because oh they're system players everyone everyone's a system player one guy the defensive players are system player i mean offensive linemen whether you're a gap or his own team right so everyone is a system player everyone

has scheme specific traits that can be maximized within the right scheme. Boom. And there it is. Wireless on the most reliable network nationwide. That's cool. But with my wireless, I get unlimited for just $30. Impressive. But does yours have 5G included? Of course. And my wireless saves me $400 a year. That's because you all have Xfinity Mobile with your internet. It's wireless so good, it keeps one-upping itself. $30 per line per month.

Taxes and fees extra. Compares pricing of top carriers. Xfinity internet required. Reduced speeds up to 20 gigabits of usage per line. Most reliable based on RootMetrics UL's report. Results vary. Non-endorsement. Let's get to the defensive players in this draft.

We spent a lot of time last week talking about the offensive guys. There's not a lot of defensive players in mock drafts going in the top 10, really in the top 32 in the first round. Is this a class that's just down, or is the offensive class, especially quarterback, because there might be even six taken. People talk about Davis Mills going in the first round. It feels a little high for for mills but is this is is this is this a a down defensive class or just there's a lot of

offensive weapons that have pushed these guys down the mock drafts i think it's a combination of both you have the wide receiver class and i think that's going to happen every year now just you know from coaching at the high school level these younger kids are so developed in the past game at a young age. It's going to continue. But like you mentioned, offensive playmakers, obviously the quarterbacks, there's no question about that. I think offensive tackles will get pushed up like they do every year. So what you're talking about, in my opinion, Jeff,

is positional value, right? Well, the positional value for top 15 players in the defensive side of the football are guys that can hit the quarterback, right? That's what they are. They're pass rushers, whether interior or edge pass rushers. And I think this year you have some pass rushers with some explosive traits, but you don't have guys that necessarily have top 10, top 12 traits. And that's why I think you're going to see those guys slide down the board.

Now, quarterback is different. And that's always a discussion. Where do you draft a high level corner? A guy like Patrick Sertain from Alabama, I think is the best defensive player in this draft. He could be on that edge right there, that top 10 area. Maybe he goes a little higher. Could a team like Carolina take him?

I don't know that, but he has the ability, has the traits. I mean, he's the prototype press man corner, which everyone in the NFL needs. So there are going to be more offensive players drafted earlier this year but they're still good defensive talent and you're going to see that in the you know the back half of the first round i think cornerback and really secondary is a lot like offensive line you know we're both going backwards uh we're we're often just kind of at a disadvantage just with our scheme and it's just I think there's a lot of things that are very similar.

And for a while, it was really hard to evaluate offensive linemen in college into the NFL. I feel like there's that same problem at corner, just with the different offenses that we see in college football, the different techniques that are being used, the speed of the college games. Sometimes you can't get lined up properly. Are we still seeing that as a, as a problem?

You know, we saw last year that the top two corners in the draft didn't play as it kind of expected um is there a problem with with the transition from you know playing in college as a corner to the nfl i don't think it depends on where you play i mean if you watch corners in alabama jeff uh those guys are pretty pro ready obviously because nick saban runs pro style defense they play more man coverage. They challenge wide receivers more to line of scrimmage. In other conferences, for example, the Big 12, you don't see as much press man, right? Those offenses are so wide open.

They're on the spread, air raid concept. So what you see is a lot of quarters with the cornerbacks off. You see a lot of cover three, a lot of deep cover two. Now, I will say this. I do think the NFL is becoming more split safety heavy. What I mean by that, Jack, is you're seeing more corners, and corners is obviously four across. Yes. Cover two is starting

to come back more. Cover two is starting to come back more. I think that one is to control the middle of the field and also to limit explosive plays. Look, we both know if you line up against Kansas City, you're not going to completely shut down Kansas City. Now, obviously, the Super Bowl is a different story because of the offensive line depth.

We understand that. But on a regular Sunday versus Kansas City, you hold them to 17, you're doing a pretty good job. Oh, yeah. You're doing a really good job. You're holding them to 20. You're doing a really good job. So you're going to see more split safety coverage

to try to cap those verticals pushing down the field and make Patrick Mahomes throw the football underneath. But in terms of, you know, going back to your question, there's still such a need for man corners. There is. Because even zone-heavy teams, you know, down by you in Carolina was one of the most zone-heavy teams last year. There are coordinators and coaches when it's critical game situations,

third and two to six, or inside the low red zone, you want to play man. You want to play man. But you have to have the guys to do it. So guys who have man traits, certain jc horn from south carolina caitlin farley from virginia tech those are really i think the top three corners in this draft they're going to get drafted high because they have those man coverage ability and those man coverage traits just does caitlin farley's injury history worry you if you're drafting him i think you have to you really have to check on that, Jeff.

You do. Because you're talking about a skilled player with a back injury. And obviously, I'm not a doctor, so I can't comment on that. But if I'm working for a team right now, if I'm in pro personnel or college scouting or even a general manager, there has to be a long discussion with your medical staff and understanding what the injury is, what the treatment is, when he's going to be ready to play. And this is,

this is going to be an injury and you and I both had a lot of injuries. Consistent maintenance, right? Consistent maintenance. But in terms of the talent and, you know, cause that's what all I do is watch on tape. I mean, you can have a discussion that Farley is in the same group with patrick subtain or could be drafted higher another corner that that i watched a lot out west and i think he's fallen down a little bit from where people thought is elijah mold out of washington i know he's a little on the small side but i think he can be really good in the nfl and one of these kind of dual

guys that is able to play in the slot as well he tackles really well he's aggressive what do you see from elijah mold i feel like he can be like a like you know like a winfield junior like come in the second round and just be a great asset for a team really early in his career yeah i love his tape jeff i mean that you know if those are always the guys i would like to coach and i would want my second day i think he's a tone setter first of all you know if i'm coaching and i have and this includes the corners one i want guys to. I think he's a tone setter, first of all. If I'm coaching, and this includes the corners, one, I want guys to tackle. I think you have to tackle.

And all I have to do is look at the Super Bowl when Tampa started running duo and cracking on the safety and making the Kansas City corner tackle. That's what they did. You have to have corners to tackle. You have to have safeties to tackle that intimidate and dictate the flow of the game with their pads. I think Molden does that.

I do agree with you. He has a bunch of versatility. I think he can be a – I call it a slot safety, Jeff. So as a slot safety, you're not really a – you know, you're not a nickel corner in a sense there. But can you drop to the curl and hook? Can you match verticals up the field? Can you close and drive in the football?

Yes. Can you pressure? Yes. Can you drive down? I use this term forward ability a lot. I think a lot of safeties like that now, Jeff. When I say forward ability, you know, how fast they can drive, get out of the ball, and get downhill and make a play in the football.

I compare it to the Buda Baker. Love it. I love Buda Baker's tape, you know, and I always use this term. Okay. I use it with the high school kids I coach. Do you play with urgency? Yeah. That's going to show on the tape.

I'm going to be able to know as a coach or I coach. Do you play with urgency? That's going to show on the tech. I'm going to be able to know as a coach or an evaluator if you play with urgency. Do you want to get to the football? And with Molden, you see it consistently. I think the things you've mentioned about too high in quarters and being able to do what Buda Baker can do, what Molden can do, kind of play that slot safety, is because the Chiefs are a great example.

The last half of the year everyone played them in too high because the chiefs don't want on the football they just don't so you limit explosive plays in the past game hopefully but then you need those those those quarters safeties to come down and tackle if teams do run the balls i think they're even more valuable now than they've ever been because of that looking at the safety position this year it doesn't feel like there's any guys that people are are on, even maybe into the second round. It's hard to find in mock drafts and looking

at rankings of a couple safeties that might go in the second round. Who do you have at the top two or three? I think you have to look at Trayvon Merrick from TCU. I think he might be a late one. Jeff, one of the perfect examples was last year when Winfield and McKinney

and all the safeties went, it was in the second round. I mean, that's kind of the sweet spot for safeties because it's not, we talked earlier about positional value. It doesn't rank up there with pass rushers. It just, or guys that can cover. So at the safety position, maybe Merrick goes in the late one. I really like Jamar Johnson from Indiana. Okay.

Jamar Johnson from Indiana reminds me of, you know, a great scheme for him would be Los Angeles, you know, and how the Rams played their safeties last year with Fuller and Johnson, how they played those safeties because they play top down the football. They can cut crosses. They can drop down your sub package, be a hook or curl, or even inside player. They can pressure on schemed up stunts.

Jamar Johnson's a guy I really like. Richie Grant from Central Florida. Now, Richie Grant does not have high-level traits. Jeff, when you watch him on tape, he can do everything that you see in today's NFL. He can play too deep. He can play courts. He can rotate him down as a strong safety in the box. He's got some coverage ability. I think

this is important to talk about. We say this every that safety can cover the slot yeah okay there's a difference between covering down over the slot and matching up to cole beasley on third down right okay because if you can match up to cole beasley on yeah you should really be a corner okay correct yeah he's going to do that if you were to put me on cole beasley one the coach would have got fired we would have lost the game, okay? I wouldn't have been able to match up to him. But can you rotate down, Jeff, from those two high alignments when you blitz the slot corner?

When you're running a zone pressure from the opposite side of the formation and you have that late movement in the secondary, then you can match that slot receiver because now you're playing with that forward ability again. You're expecting football to come out you can drive down the speed out you can drive down in the crosser you can match to an inside seam or you know hug the hip of the receiver going to the corner you can do those things as a safety that's why i call it the ability to cover down i think richie grant can do that as

well i think all over the field and we've talked about now you know secondary players and quarterbacks the ability to do multiple things out of your position is so important you look at michael parsons the linebacker from penn state who most have is a top 10 pick uh he can do it both he can play well linebacker maybe he plays a little bit of mike we can rush the passer well um what what is his versatility you think um when he gets the national football league i don't think it's really important and that goes back to the Super Bowl. You saw what Devin White and Levante David, they're impacted. Levante David now is a really high-level talent

because there's not many linebackers that when you play two men can stick with Travis Kelsey. There's just not. I mean, Travis Kelsey is one of the top tight ends in the NFL. That's a hard matchup. Levante David showed that he can do that with safety help over the top. I think with Micah Parsons, he has high-level traits. He has explosive traits.

I think the point you brought up about pressures is important in today's NFL. We see with linebackers all the time, whether they're hitting the A or B gaps or they're scheming from outside. And that really goes to defenses in general, Jeff. And this is right up your alley. How many more multiple fronts we see now? Even with coordinators like Robert Sala, I call it a tilted front.

I don't know what you guys call it, but when you get three to one side and you have the seven techniques in the back, you're just getting one-on-ones. That's all you're doing. You're turning team one-on-ones, occupy blockers, and get one-on-ones. And you can do that with parsons, too. Whether you walk them up, mug them up over the center, drop them out in the coverage or blitz,

there's a lot of things you can do with them because of those high level traits and the number one thing with stacked linebackers right now is how fast can you cut off the ball can you get to the edge i remember you watched the monday night game you remember was the rams bucks this year that monday night game la won at the end but the rams couldn't run the football because the guards couldn't climb quick enough off the combos to get to those linebackers. And Devin White and Levante David kept cutting off the ball. They could fly. And then, yeah, they can run.

They can run. And, you know, this is something I wanted to ask about. You know, the pro day times now are a little wild, okay? I understand that. They're fast. They're really fast. And, look, my pro day times, even way back in 1999, 2000, we're faster at Iowa.

They're going to be faster at your pro day. I think the thing is here, Jeff, we don't have any comparables. You know, usually you just have the combine time, right? And if someone comes out and runs a 4.38 at their pro day, they said, well, he ran a 4.45 at 80. That's what we're taking. That's what we're looking at. But now you don't have it.

So you're getting guys that run low 4-3's, 4-2's. I don't think people understand how fast a 4-3-4 is. 4-5 is moving. You're a 4-5-5 guy, that's fast. You're a 4-3 guy, that's fast. You run a 4-3? Come on, man.

I think it's, I think you take it as a data point that you would take it normally. And you just watch the film. Like you see, okay, does he play fast on film? Okay. And then he runs fast. He's good. Because look, if he runs a four, three or four, four, four or four or five, I don't know if it changes his draft slot. I just think that it just makes for great fodder for Penn state.

And, but didn't, didn't Penn state though, have, did they have really slow times with a bunch of guys Joe was it the other way one squad was it Penn State or the fast times or slow times he ran fast I know that yeah he ran the four threes Michael Parsons ran I mean the number coming out of Penn State was I think four three nine and pro days are different okay so my going into my senior year at Iowa, there was a tornado off of I-80. Back then, we had a bubble.

Not a container facility, a bubble in the 90s. The bubble got blown away 200 yards down the street. It was gone. That was old AstroTurf, Jeff. That wasn't FieldTurf. That was AstroTurf. When I was in college in Oregon,

2004 and 2005, our indoor hatch still had astroturf yeah so that that turf is set out in the sun all summer until they got the new bubble hard in the fall but we got to run on that okay so you were flying on that stuff oh yeah flying because it was like concrete yeah all right much better surface than when i ran at the combine it was at the rca dome in indianapolis and again that was not astroturf yeah and you remember you ran on the side yeah it was field turf by the time i went but yeah same yeah it was oh yeah go ahead continue no i'm saying it's just my point is you never know about protein it's also worth pointing out that you know the combine you run the

last thing you do at the combine as you work out so they've stressed you the entire time with physical testing with mental testing with just the entire time you have to be quote-unquote on right because everyone's watching you're wearing a shirt with your note with you know with your name and number on it you're meeting with all the teams you're up to 11 o'clock you're you're waking up at four o'clock for a drug test so by the time you work out you're just tired and you're stressed and you want to go home and so you're not working out at your best capacity and even then we see sometimes where someone runs a 40 and it's like oh guys it's time for our position drills and then they go back and run a shuttle they go back and do the vertical and so the pro day none of

that's happening right you sleep in your own bed. You wake up. There's no stress. And so you're going to have faster times in your pro day no matter what. But to your point, this year, everyone's running a 4-3-9. Like, everyone is running these amazing times. Who are a couple other linebackers that you might see go early in this draft? I know there's a kid at Notre Dame that people are high on.

Yeah, Wusakoromoa. And, look, he's an interesting player because he's got dynamic traits. He's got disruptive ability. He's got the second level range. You can pressure him. He can drop in coverage. I wonder, Jeff, if some teams would grade him as a safety.

Okay, would they grade him as a... You know, if you play a cover three system, like you see a lot in Carolina down there, would you grade him out as a safety? Could he be a safety? Is he a cam chancellor type that or i count him to shaq thompson i think he has that yeah that type of athleticism where you can play him as a world linebacker in a 40 front yeah but when you again like we're talking about jeff today's nfl when you get to your sub packages your nickel and your dime, that's where I think you're really going to see his traits, you know,

because now you can scheme him. Now he can be that, you know, that overhang defender for your listeners out there. You know this Jeff, but an overhang is almost like a box safety, but you're out in space. Yes. And you cut off the ball on the run game, you get over the top of the slot receiver on bubbles and screens. You can match and carry or you can drop as his own defender it's really a place you want to put your disruptive players to limit plays in the edge i think he could be that guy i really do i really like his

take i think he strikes on contact too he will drop his pads and run right through you he's a really good football player i do think he's probably a late one another one is zavin collins from tulsa zavin collins from tulsa jeff is six foot four 260 pounds okay he looks like for anyone who goes watches high school football you go to a high school football game there's a division one player on the field this is a you know skilled player oh easy to see you know right away right yeah you know right away and that's what you see on his tape. He's playing in a non-Power 5 conference. Yeah. But you want to talk about disrupting. He's a fluid, easy mover at 260 also.

And there's one tape when they played Oklahoma State, he was all over the field. I remember watching that game on TV. Mm-hmm. He had two picks this year. He's long. He can drop, you know, get his arms in the throwing lanes, the impact middle of the field

throws. I think he's physical at the point of attack. And another thing, I think he plays with a ton of effort. I think he plays hard. I think there'll be a place for him as a stack linebacker, even as an outside linebacker because I do think you can scheme him on rushes. Yeah, I mean, you're not going to be drafted high in the NFL to play two downs.

So you have to make sure, obviously, you can get in on those three downs. Looking at pass rushers this year, feels like out of all positions, this is a down year for pass rushers, maybe de-tackle as well. You look at a guy like Gregory Rousseau now, he's not in the top, what, five or six for most guys.

But entering this year, he was supposed to be the number one prospect. How did someone drop like that just from not playing this season? Well, I don't think it's much from not playing. I mean, yes, Jeff, I do think you'd want new tape. I think everyone would to study. But you look at the two pass rushers in Miami.

You know, Jalen Phillips is more of a high-trace prospect than Rousseau. I think it's simple. Everyone could see that. He's got more twitch, more bend. He's more active with his hands. Rousseau. I think it's simple. Everyone can see that. He's got more twitch, more bend. He's more active with his hands. With Rousseau, I think it'd be your power rusher. I think that's what he's going to be.

I don't think he's going to have scheme-transcendent traits or dynamic traits off the edge. But I still think he's growing into his frame. I really believe that. He's still growing into his frame. He was a high school safety. He was a high school safety. Transition to defensive line.

I mean, he's got a high ceiling there's no question about that i just don't think he has the elite traits i don't want to i shouldn't say that we're elite because these guys haven't played a game in the nfl i don't think he has the ability to be a scheme transcendent pass but again can it be a power rusher for you is he feral from from the raiders is that who's competent someone like that who's a down defender but it's your strong side edge who can wrong arm and take on pulls and fight off reach box impact run game and then give you something as a pastor because he can win with speed of power how important is it with with defensive ends to look at their production in the run game as far as their their evaluation to the nfl because i know, you know, sacks, pressures, hits, those all count, but the

best defensive ends in the NFL also are really good against the run. It's hard to find one that can only rush the passer and can't play the run. No, and I'm guilty of that too. You know, we all get caught up in that because we look at traits to transition to impact situations, right? We look at guys who get the quarterback on third down or two minute red zone all those key game situations we don't focus enough in the early downs if you have a defensive end that can't fight a reach box you have they can't play they can't play in the field right you can't put them out there if you have a defensive end who can't wrong arm pull well what are we doing here i think those traits are important we're just not highlighted enough throughout the draft process in our business because they're not impact

situations yeah but no i think you have to have those jeff you have to it feels like the kid from michigan pay um who most people have not most people some people have is the number one defensive end like that's where the where the traits are at but the production all across the board is just not there it just feels hard to draft a guy like i i just know that when i watch defensive ends and in college if they can do more than one thing great especially when they rush the passer they have an outside and an inside move if they have outside but just so much effort right i think i can coach that guy up i don't think just production guys i mean excuse me just traits guys we talk about quarterback great defensive end though i kind of worry about that in into the nfl like there's less practice time now you don't have time to work on your so do you worry about about a guy like pay who just traits but production is

really not there doesn't not define pass rusher like a chase young was last year now he chased down some mutants so that's not really fair to compare him to but it does feel like there is some risk drafting a player like him early in the draft who doesn't have a lot of refined skills a pass rusher no what you're drafting there is exactly what you said you're drafting the explosive traits and i think with a guy like pay it goes back to what we're talking about earlier the multiple fronts, right? If you look at fronts in Miami and New England, two examples where they can utilize guys like how Kyle Van Nooy was utilized. You know, especially in New England, not as much in Miami, but especially in New England, where they can be, you know, your stand-up outside guy. They can align inside as a stand-up three technique and and stunt and slant

and use the the loops to get to the edge of the formation i think that's how you have to start out with a guy like quitty pay you have to maximize those traits within your scheme but you have to be a team that uses multiple fronts that's you know i think that's something so interesting about the draft is we we see guys that don't play up to their ceilings or don't stay along with their original team because the scheme fits you know if you're drafting quitty pay and you're playing a four-man front and you're not a multiple front team i don't think you're doing it right i think you have to be a multiple front team that utilizes those traits and coach those traits until you can get to that point jeff where

you have more coaching time when you can make him a more complete player, it's position when he has more time to work on his craft. I've always said with defensive backs, one of the best teaching tools is special teams, right? Cause you're not getting the same amount of reps as a starter, right? You're not getting the same game reps, but on special teams, that's a great opportunity to work on your craft. You have to play at a top speed. You have to defeat blockers in space. You have to use your hands. You have to tackle in the open field.

Those things all translate over okay so you have to find situations with younger players i know i'm getting off schedule here i'm sorry but you have to find situations with younger players where you can create more developmental time especially without the amount of practice time this year and a lot of for a lot of guys as special teams talk to me about the kid from georgia i his last name it's uh it's ojalari right ojalari yeah he he feels like the best kind of three four pass rusher but there isn't a draft is am i on the right track there yeah i agree 100 jeff that's what he is to stand up outside linebacker um i really like his tape uh there's a couple plays against bama that really jump out we're talking about you know playing run, but he's setting the edge, and he's wrong-arming.

He's standing guys up, getting underneath the pads, the offensive guards are standing them up, turning the run back inside, or showing the ability to disengage from that block when the run bounces and get outside and make a tackle. He's a good pass rusher. I think he plays with effort. There are some plays in the tape where he'll run plays down and get in on tackles that a lot of guys wouldn't.

That matters to me. And maybe that's me talking from a coaching perspective. But I really like him. I do think you're on the right track. He's a 3-4 outside linebacker. And I'm not saying that he's going to go there, but you look at systems like Pittsburgh, okay, systems like that where they're – how do they utilize their 34 outside

linebacker? Because he can drop into coverage too. You can drop him off as a weak side curl or hook player off of the zone pressure. And he can drive top down with that forward ability and make plays in the ball. Really good prospect. He could be a first-round guy, Jeff. I've seen some people have him mocked as high as the Giants early in the draft, which feels high, but the Giants have other needs, I think,

but they need pass rushers as well. Are there any kind of under-the-radar pass rushers that you're looking at as far as maybe can come in with some impact that we don't really know about, but just have those productive traits? Only one player to look at, Jeff, is Peyton Turner from the University of Houston. He's a 6'5", 270-pound

defensive end with 35-inch arms. He's got the length. You know that, right? He's got some good take. He's had injuries in college. I don't think he's fully developed yet as a pass rusher, but he shows enough in terms of the ability to bend on the edge. He has enough

counter moves at this time to create college production. Obviously, no, that's not going to necessarily create nfl production but he's shown he can get to the quarterback he's got explosive traits he's got a really good step off the ball and the thing about him that really jumps out to me is he can change directions to space there's a play against zach wilson where wilson gets outside the pocket the game getsYU, and it's one-on-one, and he makes the play. I mean, he does have some lateral agility for a 270-pound defensive end. I think that's one play we're looking – I usually turn developmental upside, but I will target in the draft.

It's just – I need to go back and just look at all this because I feel like, again, with practice time now, man, it's just so hard for these young guys. Like, you know, Chase Young came in. He was ready to play. Like, he was ready to go. We're going to see next year. I can't wait to talk about him all year long.

Kayvon Thibodeau out of Oregon. He's ready. He's ready to go in the NFL. He can go in right now. He can play this year, ready to go. But with a lot of these pass rushers, man, it's just so hard without practice. Right? There's no one-on-one reps anymore.

There's no preseason. There's no getting ready, and then you're just thrown in there like, hey, go win against Trent Williams. Go win against David Bakhtiari. Go win against an elite guard. It's just their confidence has got to be crushed sometimes because it's really hard, I think,

at that position unless you're refined like Obosa was to come in and play well early in your career. No, I agree. I mean, it'd be the same if we're talking about the secondary. Take a young slot corner and say, hey, go cover Devontae Adams and Keenan Allen. Okay. Sure.

Sure, coach. Yeah. You know, that's a tough transition. I think, you know, you're talking about pass versus, I think, defensive back is an extremely tough transition. Obviously, offensive tackle as well. And I think a lot of it, Jeff, is getting used to NFL speed. I remember when I – you know, everyone has like a welcome to the NFL moment, right?

Oh, yes. So mine was actually early. It was during training camp. And, you know, back then there was a lot of joint practices. And this was a year after the Rams won the Super Bowl against the Titans. So the Titans came out to Macomb at Western Illinois for training camp. And our starter was hurt that day, so I got to go with the ones. So I didn't belong there.

And it was during nine on seven. And I look back there. It's Steve McNair, quarterback. It's Lorenzo Neal, fullback. It's young Eddie George, a tailback. It's Frank Wycheck, a tight end. I remember they ran ISO, and I ran downhill in the Lorenzo Neal. I thought I was dead.

Like, I've never been like that. You know, I was coming from the Big Ten, and, you know, back in the 90s, Big Ten, it's all was. ISO, trap, and power, it's all. So I thought, okay, I'm fine. I can do this. When Lorenzo hit me, you know, and then I remember a couple plays later, I had a chance to square up Eddie George.

No, no, it was not happening. So that was not as much the speed, but the physicality. And then, you know, during practice, you're going against Kurt Warner and Isaac Bruce, Torrey Holt, Oz Akeem, Ricky Pearl, Marshall Falk in the pass game. I can't tell you how many times I'm trying to stay on top of Isaac Bruce. I turn, he's gone because I don't even know where he's going. He's running a dig ride, he's running a post, he's running a corner.

So I think that, but I needed that time, Jeff. That's my point. Because we got extra practice time when the tightness came to McCullough. We have whatever, four weeks to two days, plus four preseason games. And you start to adapt to NFL speed. But even with that, Jeff,

I remember we opened the season, my rookie year against the Broncos on Monday night, and I got some reps out there, and I've never seen anything that fast. And that's 2000. You know, when people lined up under center and everyone was running 21 personnel, that was

2000. Now imagine now, if you have your first game against the Kansas City Chiefs, the Bills, when they come out in 10 personnel. You know, you're just saying, wow. My offensive line coach when I was young on the Panthers, Dave Magazoo, he told us that there's basically like four or five different speeds in the NFL. There's preseason. There's basically like weeks one through four

when everyone's legs are kind of fresh and they're excited to play. Then there's the middle of the season. Then there's the middle of the season then there's the playoff push then there's the playoffs in the super bowl now i never got to the super bowl but i played the playoffs and i'll tell you what the speed of the game picks up like by far there's a sense of urgency in the game everyone knows they're very close to that and as a young player it's it is overwhelming i didn't play i was a i was a practice squad kid so i got in my first actual time at offensive line i would play special teams was like the end of my second season so by then i was kind of you know i was like i kind of got it but i mean coming in now as a rookie and and they

expected to play right you're drafting top three rounds you got to play now you do and even if you're not ready you're going to be put in the field, right? Yeah. Look, we've both played for a while. Game reps matter, right? Yes. One thing to develop in practice is you need those reps. We already talked about that. There's no question about that. But to really develop as a football player,

whether it's high school, college, you have to play. You have to play. And, Jeff, you have to make mistakes, right? Oh, yeah. You have to be able to correct those mistakes off the tape and then bring it to the practice field and obviously the game week, the following week. But you have to play and go through those experiences to see what it's like to be hit like that,

to get beat by, you know, an interior pass rush, for me to get beat by a deep ball off the top, to get smoked, covered and kicked and get track blocked. Back then, back then the special teams were the Wild West. There was no rules. Oh, I remember, oh, geez, the wedge was just like, when coach was like, Schwartz, you're in special teams. I'm like, oh, no.

Like, there was never, I mean, I had teammates that would take extra knee pads and put them under their shoulder pads because you knew, like, think about how crazy it is. Like, think about this. So the ball is at the 35-yard line, right? I believe it's the 35-yard line now. Or is it the 20, the 30? 35, right?

35. 35. You used to be able to start, like, 15 yards back. You would run full speed down the field. I would be on the wedge. I'd run back 15 yards. I'd grab my buddy's hand, and we would just run full speed to each other because the coaches decided that was the best way to cover a kick and block.

That's it. Like there was, you basically just, I would run. I closed my eyes and just float, just fling my body at the nearest defender. Cause you know, why do you keep your eyes open? You're just going to explode all your power. Because if I didn't go hard i'd get hurt like you have to go hard otherwise you would take me out i'd have a choice right i used to wear

those spider pads oh yeah it goes anymore the pad you're wearing oh yeah yeah because i was the same way you know you have to go full speed nice you target the inside so the four-man wedge or take number two and try to target his hip because you can't cut no target the hit and try to just bust through that way and even if you get through the wedge jeff you don't make the play no you try to slow up the returner to get someone else to you don't really want to be the first guy to hit the wedge you want to be the guy behind the first guy so he can blow it up you guys sit there yeah the four-man wedge they used to have trap blocks you can ear hole people. Oh yeah.

Whatever you want, especially teams, but that's a good discussion because that's how I made the league. That's how I stayed in the league. And even my last year in Buffalo, that's why I signed to go to Buffalo. It wasn't to be a starting safety. It was to cover kicks.

Yeah. That was such a valuable tool back then because one, you kicked off five yards behind. There was more returns. You needed players that could block on the front line and kick off. You needed more guys because the ball wasn't going into the end zone every time. It just wasn't.

Yeah, I mean, that was a huge thing for me playing special teams. That's the only reason I made it, the only reason I stayed in there because I was one of those guys that would say, okay, coach, yeah, I'll run into the wedge. Not that I really wanted to, but... You know the funny thing, Jeff, is every injury I had in the NFL was on special teams.

Every one of them. Yeah, because it used to be just a bloodbath. Right. And, you know, you're playing... Like we talked about earlier, you're playing at top speed. You're playing at top speed. And you weigh 300 pounds. I 202 something bad is probably gonna happen to me right before we run into each other that's all it was oh man it brings back i had a i had a 16 yard return one time though 16 yard return um it was the most terrifying experience in my nfl

career balls kicked like right i had no choice it was kicked like seven experience in my NFL career. Ball was kicked, like, right. I had no choice. It was kicked, like, seven yards in front of me, bounced, hit me in the chest. I started running to open light, and then, like, five Buccaneers dudes just tackle me. I'm running, like, upright, too. Like, not even, like, I never run with the ball before. Like, I just terrified, terrified to do this. Last thought before we get out of here.

Least favorite part of the last couple weeks before the draft? Least favorite part is, I think it's when there's suddenly a new opinion on a player. I mean, we've had all this time to watch this tape. You've had three years of college football for most players, an entire offseason, and all of a sudden the narrative changes on one player. And I don't say it's like a least fair part, but I'm always questioning that. Like what has changed, especially without a combine? Boredom.

We're bored. Yeah, probably. Without a combine, especially for quarterbacks, you have pro days. If you're a first-round quarterback, I mean, a pro day, it should look great, right? You're throwing an error. Yeah, it's scripted. You're throwing an error. You're throwing it to your own teammates, which is another positive for a pro day versus a combine.

It's a comfortable environment. You warm up with your own strength coach like you talked about earlier. So I've always questioned that because the last couple of weeks of the draft, how someone can slide all of a sudden when an analysis has been positive for so long and all of a sudden say, oh, well, what about this? What about this?

Well, we've all been watching the same tape. If you believe a guy is a high level player, like Justin Fields is a perfect example, and I'm probably higher in Fields than some people. I really like him, Jeff. I think he'd be an excellent quarterback in the right offense. I think he battles. I think he plays hurt. I think he brings a physical element

to the position. It's not going to change. There's no more tank to watch. That's it. That's my evaluation of him as a player. I think he's the top five quarterback, the top five player in this class. This pro day is happening right now, so I'm

sure that when we get done recording this, there'll be a new analysis on what the fields can and can't do. The Niners were there today, guys. They were there. They drafted them, of course. That's all that matters. All right, one more time, Matt, where can we find the matchup show for the draft? It's actually on

where we can actually watch it, not like at 4 a.m. So tell us about the show. We have two draft shows coming up. April 21st and April 27th. I think they're going to be on ESPN and ESPN2. They're going to be in primetime, though. It'll be after dinner.

Primetime TV, so it's good. The draft shows are fun for us, Jeff, because obviously during the season, it's more scheme-focused, the draft shows are fun for us, Jeff, because obviously during the season, it's more scheme focused, right? And we're talking about scheme and et cetera. But this is more about player traits. And I think it's more of a free-flowing show.

Obviously, we're going to hit on all the quarterbacks. We're going to hit on the top wide receivers, Kyle Pitts. We're going to talk about the passers, all the key positions, secondary, stack linebackers. And it'll be a great show with Sal Palantonio and Greg Cosell. And Greg does such an excellent job with our show. Such an excellent job. Greg is the best. I was injured one year

and I drove from Paramus to Mount Laurel and spent an entire day watching film with him. It was the best. And I just want to end by saying that anytime that you want to ask Greg to give me access to all 22, you're welcome to do so. I will gladly take it.

So, you know, most of us in the media watch the game pass like everyone else does. Matt gets the all 22s. I will text Matt sometimes. Hey, man, this is great run play. Can you pull it for me? And at night when Matt was watching film on Sunday nights or Monday morning typically, send it to me. It's a big help but i'm just very jealous i'm very

jealous that you have access to with the clicker we get the film um downloaded on sunday nights and we get all the college tape too so i have that i have that so i have all the college tape i have that like keyed up my ipad looks great the the rewind set up properly but it's that that elusive elusive pro film i can't find um all right matt i really appreciate it thank you so much great conversation talking about the defensive guys because um we got smarter today thank you buddy all right thank you jeff all right that was matt bowen he is absolutely fantastic you follow him that matchup show he does with greg it's the it's the best it's on like at 4 a.m though i wish it was

a much better time so we could all watch it all right everyone getting so close to the draft it's getting there close i appreciate all the comments rate review subscribe if you've been if you listen this long hit a five star please really appreciate it talk to you guys next week we're gonna have some mock drafts. We're going to do a team mock draft. I mean, me, Gabe, and Matt, and Nick, we're all going to do it together. Have a lot of fun with it. Take care, everyone.