Geoff Schwartz Is Smarter Than You - QB Controversy and Unique Media Career Path with Mina Kimes

Episode Date: March 9, 2021

Geoff is back after a two week hiatus to talk with ESPN's Mina Kimes about Russell Wilson trade rumors, Deshaun Watson trade possibilities and her unique career path. Geoff also starts the episode by breaking down Dak Prescott's new contract and what it means for the rest of the league. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's Tuesday, March 9th. This is Jeff Schwartz and this is Jeff Schwartz. It's tomorrow. You welcome back everyone. We took a two-week hiatus, had a little vacation, a little downtime, but I am ready to come back talking about football. Football never sleeps, obviously, with all this quarterback drama, Francie coming up, the franchise tag, the draft, everything will cover it all here.

Of course, we record an entire podcast and then Dak Prescott gets paid by Dallas Cowboys. So before we get to Mina, let's talk about Dak Prescott getting four years, $160 million, most guaranteed money for quarterback, most signing bonus for quarterback, $75 million in year one. First off, I am very happy for Dak Prescott. I hate to see a player get hurt before he has gotten his money.

I hate to see a player get hurt no matter what. But in this case, a franchise quarterback, fourth round draft pick. Yes, he made a lot of money in year one. I get that. He's a one-year franchise type. But nonetheless, very happy to see him get paid. Very happy to see him get paid. Love when any player gets paid.

We'll discuss whether or not it's worth it in a second. But first off, very happy Dak Prescott got paid the Cowboys oh boy they cost themselves a lot of money here 40 million dollars a year if you count the franchise tax from last year it's still near 40 million dollars a year for Dak Prescott over five years. And they should have signed him much earlier. Should have made him a priority much earlier. After the 2018 season, his third year in the NFL, they're allowed to do a deal with him.

It's a fourth-round draft pick. He started three years, made the playoffs twice, won one playoff game. Could have signed him. Would have been a lot cheaper. Maybe $30 million a year. Maybe $28 million a year. Maybe $28 million a year. Could have got it done. Didn't do it.

Okay, that makes sense. Maybe, right? Third round. Excuse me, third year. We're not ready yet. We'll go one more year. One more year. So heads in 2019.

Cowboys go 8-8. Not Dak's fault. Fifth in EPA. Ninth rated by Pro Football Focus. Not his fault. Should have signed him after 2019. Everyone said sign Dak Prescott. I said the Cowboys signed DeMarcus Lawrence and Jalen Smith and Zeke Elliott.

You're like, what are you doing? Sign the quarterback. Sign the quarterback. And the impasse was length of contract. Dak won a four-year deal. Cowboys won a five-year deal. Money, they said, was about the same, $35 million a year. And I contend, I still think I'm right about this.

At the time, the Cowboys did not think, they thought Dak was their franchise, but they were not sold 100% on Dak Prescott. And I'll give you a couple reasons why. One is that we see with Jared Goff or Carson Wentz that when teams want to get a deal done with their quarterback, they get a deal done. Whether that's capitulating on years or money, they just find a way to get it done. We've locked a guy in to a deal.

And the Cowboys just didn't do that here. They wouldn't budge. And I get it, precedent, whatever. But if you're a quarterback, I think you budge, right? The Chiefs' 10-year deal with Mahomes, never done before. No, I mean, in four years, that's a great deal for the Chiefs. But nonetheless, you know, they didn't do what they normally do. Unconventional.

When you have a quarterback, you try to keep him there as long as you can, especially if you believe in him. And then Mike McCarthy, the new coach, reported that he didn't call Dak Prescott for a week after he got the job. That, to me, is really odd and shows a lack of support from McCarthy. Think about this. You have to imagine that Mike McCarthy in his interview with Jerry Jones, they spent the night together at his house,

that Dak had to come up, right? There's no way that you interview for that job and do not have a plan for Dak Prescott. After that entire meeting, you get the job. You would think your first call was Dak Prescott. After that entire meeting, you get the job. You would think your first call was Dak Prescott. Hey man, got the job. Glad to be here. Let's work together. But it wasn't. It wasn't. And that to me, I said a million times, struck me as, you know what? Maybe we're not all in on Dak Prescott. Maybe we're not all in. They should have been. Because I'm a lot cheaper. So

2020 happens. Dak Prescott gets hurt, breaks his leg, and the Cowboys see life without Dak Prescott. What's that going to be like? Heading into this offseason, they could have franchised him. The reason why the franchise tag is not good in this

instance, I think it's, the franchise tag is very team-friendly. So there's many opportunities to put on players, and it very much helps teams. But here's why I think for the quarterback it's not great. It's the one position where you love to have long-term stability, and you love to spread that long-term stability as far as money over multiple years. And the franchise tag is one lump sum in one season.

And so if you're planning for the rest of Dak's career in Dallas, or maybe you're just planning for the next four or five years, six years, you want to know what that cap number is going to be to prepare the team and build the team up around him. And a one-year deal doesn't help you with that. Now, you can obviously project out what a long-term deal might be, but a franchise tag doesn't help him. And from's point of view who got hurt this year he don't want a franchise tech either right he wants to be able to get this long-term security so doing a deal made sense and

in the end again Dak Prescott could have been had for 30 million million probably after 2019, for $35 million after last season. But instead, now the Cowboys are paying $40 million a year. $40 million a year. Good for Dak. Again, it's a ton of money. Second only to Pat Mahomes' average annual for quarterback. And look, I don't know if Dak is going to win a Super Bowl for them,

but the next quarterback up always gets paid, and they get paid more than the guy in front of them. Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, Baker Mayfield are going to get a lot of money to this offseason. And the contract value is now set on what Dak got. There'll be a chance that they'll get paid more than Pat Mahomes pretty soon. Someone will get paid more than Pat Mahomes in a couple years. It's the way it is, the way these contracts work.

Dak has a new trade clause as well. So he's there for four years and he'll be a free agent after that. Fantastic. Good for him. Adam Schefter reported that he thinks that part of the reason why this deal was done, at least ownership or someone had told him that this is a good sign that the salary cap is going up in a couple of years with the new tv deals maybe even next year i mean this you know this deal at 40 million a year let's just use that number i don't know what the cap hit is in year one that's like 22 23 of the cap this year obviously 40 million the cap rises by 20 million dollars is a lot less of a hit um you know to them you know it's only at you know 20 now i mean it's just a lot lower of a hit. And

maybe they're pricing this into the deal they did. But the Cowboys, they got their guy. Happy for Dak, but they spent a lot of money on him. All right. With that, we'll get to Mina Kimes. Boom. And there it is.

Wireless on the most reliable network nationwide. That's cool. But with my wireless, I get unlimited for just 30 bucks. Impressive. But does yours have 5G included? Of course. And my wireless saves me 400 bucks a year. That's because you all have Xfinity Mobile with your internet. It's wireless so good, it keeps one-upping itself. $30 per line per month. Taxes and fees extra. Compares pricing of top carriers. Xfinity internet required.

Reduced speeds after 20 gigabits of usage per line. Most reliable based on RootMetrics UL's report. Results vary. Non-endorsement. Mina, how are you doing? You know, I'm good. I'm good. Everyone keeps asking me that because of the big Russell Wilson controversy, like in a very sensitive manner, but I'm handling it all very well. We'll get to that in a second, because that is definitely a topic that we will discuss. But you just got done with your first full year, correct me if I'm wrong,

like covering NFL every single day of the week on NFL Live. How did that experience go, having people hear your words every day on television and the feedback you get from that? You know, it was really pleasant and like it was a great experience for me personally, because before NFL Live, I was doing TV almost every day, but a variety of it, you know, not just NFL and being on an NFL show basically just meant I had more time and energy to focus on the NFL and not doing a million other things. So it's so hard to cover all 32 teams and to watch all the games. And I'm not going to lie

and say I watch every single one of them. I'm not watching, you know, Bengals, Bears week 15 or whatever. But when you're on a football show, you do have more time to do that. And it's crazy because I know we're supposed to watch every single thing all the time, but, and fans really get angry. We don't watch every single play of every single game. There's no time to do that. Who does that? Who has time for that? Well, I always tell people, if you are a fan of a team, like a real fan and, or you cover a team more, especially like if you're a blogger and you have a a blog that covers i don't know the vikings you know more about them than me like you 100 do you know i used to feel that way when i was not a nfl analyst or even worked in sports when i was just a

crazy seahawks fan on the internet i would turn on national television i'd be like what are they talking about they haven't seen you know richard Richard Sherman circa 2011 every day or whatever. And it's just, it's true. You don't, you know more than us. But sometimes a little distance also helps, I think. And taking the 50,000 foot view can be helpful as well. Especially with the Dolphins and their offensive line. Oh, no, don't get me in trouble. No, we're not going to. We won't go there. So you mentioned your non-traditional route to covering the NFL because I think people will find that interesting. I don't think people know this.

Maybe they do listen to this podcast. But you didn't start in sports, and your route was not – even of other journalists who cover the NFL, your route was different. Did you always want to get into the NFL eventually? No, did not at all. Never thought I would work in NFL or sports. I was just a football fan. And I was a business journalist for my career until I went to ESPN in 2014. So I was a reporter and some of the tools are kind of similar, but I had no aspirations of turning my hobby, my passion into a job. When did you become, do you remember your first memory of a football fan?

Like I remember sort of mine when I was a kid with, with the UCLA Bruins, I went to all their games. I remember like a 1993, like Tennessee 1714 UCLA loss where Tennessee ran out the clock uh in a punt formation everyone the Rose Bowl was booing like I have these memories do you remember your first like Seattle Seahawks I'm a fan of of that memory my first football fandom memories are not of the Seattle Seahawks although I was born into Seahawks fandom um but actually was nebraska football i'm like kind of a lapsed college football fan um but i was born in the state of nebraska i was born in omaha at off at air force base so i wasn't the only nebraska fan in my family my dad was a michigan fan and washington fan he went to michigan um so i was i now i'm kind of like a we've talked about this a huskies fan but i'm like so unfortunate you know i i i'm really a casual um just especially with the nfl you know but um

i'm not passionate at all but uh yeah so my first favorite football player was tommy frazier uh which i think makes sense why i like option football so much and dual threat quarterbacks but my earliest memories are watching Tommy Frazier and those Nebraska teams it is crazy how the NFL the quarterback position is now you almost exclusively have to be dual threat like you can't play in the NFL if you can't move anymore I mean that's it's quite remarkable how and that shift happened over I don't know eight years ten years years? That's what you get now. You get guys that have to move, and it's totally changed the position. All right, let's get to your favorite quarterback, I would imagine,

is Russell Wilson. It's a good segue, though, because I think he was a big part of that change. He was a big part. And he, by the way, was not an option quarterback in college, right? It was constant. It definitely was. NC State did a little bit of that. And then in Seattle, he's not an option quarterback either. I mean like they don't use him like they should which is partly why

we're here okay so um russell wilson more vocal now uh he wants one thing in the offense pete carroll's another thing in the offense how did this get solved it's a little perplexed i would would say, by the way, Russell Wilson was an option quarterback 2012 when they, and that was the read option revolution in 2012 with all those quarterbacks, but he, his running has kind of waxed and waned over the years. Um, and he still runs pretty efficiently, just not in the same way he did early on. But, um um as far as the dissatisfaction it's it's hard to sort of diagnose a solution because he's been so vague he through his people who are then talking to reporters who are verbalizing whatever um it's sort of vague right i mean we know he wants better protection that he is he's explicitly said i don't want to be attacked as much fine he doesn't want to i mean every quarterback doesn't want to be sacked as much. Fine.

He doesn't want to be. I mean, every quarterback doesn't want to be sacked. That's like not anything different anyone else would say. And, you know, some people correctly say that Russell Wilson, his style of play, similarly to Deshaun Watson, does invite pressure. And as someone who's watched every single one of his, what, 400 sacks or whatever zillion, that's true. But they also have not not I wouldn't say failed

to invest in the offensive line so much as made bad investments you know whether it's draft picks signings yeah you know a lack of signings and free agency the only really good thing they've done is the Dwayne Brown trade which worked out immensely well he's been fantastic for them but um that's the only thing we know he has explicitly said i i want this to change um because beyond that i think what you're seeing is just a ton of speculation people saying well he's unhappy with pete carroll and his play calling but last year they were one of the most pass happy teams in the nfl so you know and then they fired their offense quarter it's like okay well then if he's was he unhappy with that or did he want a new coordinator is he unhappy with the waldron hire like what kind of offense does he want it's all very

unclear i think um and then it's i think complicated too by some of the teams he's purportedly interested in like chicago it's okay, if you want a better offensive line and a scheme and weapons, why the hell would you want to go to Chicago? So it's all very confusing. And the only terra firma we have is the offensive line. I'm glad you mentioned that because the teams he laid out, which were Saints, Raiders, Bears, and one other team that he's not being traded to, there are four teams he's out, which were the Saints, Raiders, Bears, and one other team that he's not being traded to.

There are four teams he's not going to. Like Seattle, Seattle can't get the return back they want if Russell goes to those places. So it feels like to me, A, you're right, he doesn't know what he wants. B, but his representatives, and if you talk to him in Seattle, they're kind of upset at his agent. There's agents pumping this out there, and they don't know why. Like, is it to raise his rep? Is it to get him in the news more?

Is it like a PR thing? Because everything you said is true. He can't be traded to the Bears or the Raiders or to the Saints. But he sort of wants out. I'm confused by this. It does not make sense after nine years to just go so public with this. Right. And the Watson situation is so dissimilar.

You know, some people have kind of pointed to that as like a quarterback going scorched earth, which he has, justifiably. And there's just no parallel because, one, the Texans sucked. The Seahawks won their division last year. I understand that there's a lot of frustration with the team and the playoffs and some of the things that have happened, and we can talk about that. But the Texans sucked.

They're going to suck next year with or without Sean Watson. And there's major cultural issues with ownership and, you know, consulting that do not apply in this situation, and they're very unique. And with Wilson, it's like, okay, if you're so unhappy, are you actually willing to hold out? There's been no indication that he's willing to do that. So why in God's name would Seattle entertain anything less than a top,

I tweeted this, a top three pick or deshaun watson that's it yeah that those are the only things they should even like consider right there there's all this all they're taking calls i don't oh the bears yeah these these late round first round picks are really gonna help when you've got not just have you traded russell wilson but you blew a nuclear size hole in your cap to do so. It makes no sense. And we'll get to Sean Watson in a second. I think that Deshaun Watson and Russell Wilson, I said that on Twitter, that would be a fair swap.

I mean, just like you get another Russell Wilson. I'm not sure Watson would like Carroll as much as maybe Wilson, who grew up kind of there. So Russell Wilson wants better protection. You mentioned they've tried to draft that position. They had a great offensive line that left. I still say trading Max Unger was really stupid, but they let him go. He went to New Orleans. They got rid of that whole offensive line that won the Super Bowl.

But when Russell Wilson says, I want more control of the roster, that to me, it just makes no sense. I don't know what that means. Say what you want. No player should have control about that. What does that mean do you are you gonna go in there be like I want Allen Robinson and I want Juju and I went I don't even know the top every every lineman always signs with someone else I want this offensive lineman I want like what is he talking about what does that mean well I I think he was kind of I will I'll step in there I think he was

kind of pushed into it was the dan patrick interview he was like explicitly asked like okay would you like to have more of a voice and these things he was like yeah like i don't i kind of feel like um that was just him saying you know i mean obviously he wants more protection and maybe drew a line between that and that but he hasn't i don't think there's been any explicit criticisms of the roster building which you could criticize some of the things they've done that straight whatever um the only thing that again i keep going back to this the only thing that not only is he justified in being upset about but is a concrete thing they can actually address is the offensive

line in particular the interior of the offensive line which to me was why they lost to the Rams I mean obviously Aaron Donald it's unfair and they played him twice at the end I think that kind of threw everyone's perception of it but that was a real problem down the stretch and it's now a hole in their roster that they have to fix center and left guard well it's a good draft to do that and so maybe they take a shot or maybe another off the ball linebacker or running back like that's one of those two positions like that's the i guess that's why he's upset right it's like the same thing as aaron rogers is upset like look we we have a small window to win and you're drafting guys that don't explicitly help me your best player yeah when i

can understand the frustration if that is actually what it is. That makes sense. Same with Rodgers. That makes sense. I'm totally with that. Yeah, I know. And Aaron Rodgers says it.

Aaron Rodgers is like, I don't like that you drafted a quarterback who's not going to play when we could have drafted T. Higgins or someone else who was there. And I agree with that. All right. So you did choose between Pete Carroll, Russell Wilson as a Seahawks fan. Russell Wilson. Exactly, right? But never going to happen. They're never going to get rid of Pete Carroll. I don with that. All right. So you did choose between Pete Carroll, Russell Wilson as a Seahawks fan. Russell Wilson. Exactly. Right.

But never going to happen. They're never going to get rid of Pete Carroll. I don't know. Really? But I also don't know that Pete Carroll is that, that he is, is Russell Wilson's problem. Like I,

we're all just speculating about it. You know, it's so frustrating. I hate this. Like, it's like, yeah, but it's great for our job. I know. I know it's so frustrating i hate this like it's like yeah but it's great for our job analyzing i know i know i think what i hate though is i like having some sort of basis in reality to argue about and with

wilson and and it's it's like so frustrating it's like um when your significant others you know they're angry at you but they're not saying they're angry at you. And you're like, okay, I like, we're going to have an argument, but it's, I don't even know what we're fighting about. That's how I feel about Russell Wilson right now. I don't know what we're fighting about other than guards. Go sign Corey Linsley or Joe Tootie. I didn't, fine.

Yeah. And I mean, that could obviously stop it. The other quarterback in the news, obviously Deshaun Watson reports, I think yesterday, the day before that they're not going to trade him i've said all along i don't think they're trading them like they have no really no need to yeah they don't have to trade him like you're gonna so i i think carson palmer is the only guy in recent history that sat out an entire year for that position right you're basically calling his bluff all right sit out a whole year and i also think there's pressure from other owners to not give in to Sean Watson.

I think that could be true, but I would trade him. So I disagree with you there. No, I think they're, I would trade him, but I don't think they're going to do it. Oh, you just are saying you're what you don't think. Yeah. Well, I think that'd be stupid because like I said, you're going to suck regardless of whether you have him or not. Even if let's say he holds out and you get him back, it doesn't make a difference. You're going to suck, right?

So here's my thought process. Right now, this quarterback draft is really strong. Everyone agrees. Next year, significantly less strong. If you're Houston, your chances of getting his replacement are much higher now, whether it's a quarterback in the draft or Tua or whatever, right? Like getting one of those top three or four picks,

your chances are better now than they ever will be of finding the guy. So you should just rip the bandaid, do it. You're rebuilding anyways. You got to give up on the idea that like, because even if you keep him, you're so effed because you did such a bad job with your roster you got a new administration of course there's no pathway to them being better even if they keep him i think in the next two years so if i'm them you got to blow it up and accept it and just work with him to get the best offer possible to me the best place for him to go

and make this work for everyone is the dolphins right the dolphins are closest in my opinion to the jets in winning he'll like playing for for blind for is that the best spot for both parties the dolphins i think so i was just um looking at off-season needs for the worst teams in the nfl so i'm doing my podcast this week and i was actually surprised by how barren the jets like i knew they're bad obviously the jets terrible you know record or whatever roster's bad the roster's bad man like even if you get watson that there's so many holes you know cornerbacks the defense they don't have pass rushers even i like um like obviously beckton's great but the rest of the offensive line full of question marks they don't have running backs.

Rebuilding, skill play. Like, it is not a good situation. So, from Houston's point of view, of course, I'd love to get that number two pick. But from Watson's point of view, you better hope you end up – well, he has that no-trade clause, but Miami would be the spot. I'd argue the Jets shouldn't make this trade, just because their roster is so barren.

You trade away all those draft picks. Jets fans don't like when I, when I say this, but like, why would you look at your roster, man? I just ride it with Darnell one more year, trade them away to San Francisco or somewhere else and just stink again. And who's the next, who is next year's top quarterback? Do we have any, I didn't even know. I forgot. I, I, I like that's bad, right? That's more like, ah, it's not a good look.

I see. I'm, I'm, if I'm the jets, I would take a guy this year, but I do say, I see your point about, um,

trading him because you're basically, or take fields at two. Yeah. I would take, yeah. Okay. Trade Sam Darnold, take fields at two,

but you can't give up the draft picks, right? For the Sean Watson. You just can't do it. You're, you're like, you're going to be kind of like Houston. If you trade for him.

It's like you're swapping. You know, like, okay, wait, we got the quarterback. But, like, our team sucks. Yeah. The other team that's intriguing in this whole quarterback royale, and this is, the NFL is the best because this never stops. And this is really the first offseason I think I can remember where, literally from the first week of the offseason,

there was quarterback news with the Stafford Stanford golf trade is the 49ers. I like Kyle Shanahan a lot. I think that he is a fantastic coach. The one year healthy quarterback. He made the super bowl. What do they do at quarterback? So this was a team where I thought, first of all,

they, I was like, go all out for Watson, right? Do whatever it takes. I don't know why Houston would do that over, you know, like what we're talking about, Miami or even New York, potentially. But they are like, I don't think they're a quarterback away. I thought they were, but then I started like they've got a ton of free agents leaving.

Their secondary is just starting over solids, obviously out. Um, they're still going to be okay, but I, I now I'm, I think if like a Trey Lance is there for them, I would really like that for, and then, you know, maybe wait till next year. Um, I'm not sure that outside of Watson, there's an upgrade over Jimmy G available to them outside of the draft. Should someone go in and trade for Dak Prescott or should he just stick with the franchise tag? Because I know that your buddy, Dan Orlovsky,

who has quite possibly the worst food takes I've ever seen in my life. He is, he's anti-dac right anti-dac and um but i feel like dac even with the cowboys can provide value but why doesn't someone go trade for him i can't you get him cheaper than you would normally right now well uh so they're gonna it'll it would be a tag and trade right right? So like they would tag him and then trade him. And I think with Dak, you don't want him on that tag. So you would have to trade for him explicitly with an intention to do an extension. And then you can spread the money around

much in the way that the Cowboys should do. I think there's a lot of teams that should do that. I still think he's going to end up in Dallas just because I think they've backed themselves into a corner. But yeah, I think Dak Prescott would make a lot of teams in the NFL contenders. How good is he? Is he a Super Bowl winning quarterback?

Yeah, I think he is. I don't think he's a top five quarterback in the NFL. I think he's. I don't think he's like a top five quarterback in the NFL. I think he's a top 10 quarterback, maybe with top five years, depending on the pieces around him. But he's absolutely good enough to win a Super Bowl to me. Is there going to become an inflection point in the NFL when teams basically,

and I'll use the Browns for example. Like if I were the Browns, and I mentioned this to you about eight weeks ago, I would go all in. If you think Justin Fields or Lawrence or Zach Wilson are better than Baker Mayfield, I would go all in, like the Chiefs did a couple years ago, trade for the quarterback and not sign Baker Mayfield to a long-term deal. We all know what's going to happen.

They'll sign him to a long-term deal, they'll turn to Jared Goff, and they'll get rid of him in three years. Is there going to be an inflection point where teams just say, Hey, that's the path forward. We can't pay these quarterbacks that are 10 to 15, 10 to 20, because like you're kind of stuck, right? Like you have to pay him because you only have a choice, but then you're not going to win either.

Bill Barnwell was calling for the Rams to do this with Goff. I don't know if you remember. It was like a, he, he wrote a whole call about it though baker hasn't even been there yeah i know i i think well right this is it's so hard with these quarterbacks in that in that range and i'm arguing by the way that dak prescott is above that range and orlofsky would be on the other side i think I think that's the dividing line. Do you ever pay a quarterback? And if so, how good does he have to be to get that big contract relative to a rookie?

I think it's obviously a moving target. It also depends on the talent of your coaching staff and the team you've got around them and whatever. But there's no guarantee you're going to get a rookie who can even play at an above average level. You're also not winning a Super Bowl with Baker either. Like, I mean, I know it's hard for Cleveland to say that, right? I mean, obviously they just made the playoffs. They just played the Chiefs.

Like the game was much closer. I think Chiefs fans would like to admit if that ball doesn't go out the back of the end zone, it's 16-10. Browns get the ball made the playoffs. They just played the Chiefs. The game was much closer. I think the Chiefs would like to admit, if that ball doesn't go out the back of the end zone, it's 16-10, Browns get the ball at the half. It's a little different game. But it's hard to admit that as a team. We can all see it coming. Everyone knows what's about to happen.

But if you're in that organization, you think to yourself, hey, we'll upgrade here, we'll upgrade there, and we'll be back there next year. I get why teams go all in for these guys. They don't have a choice. I do think there are deals that we see quarterback, that teams sign that are much like the Jimmy G deal or the Derek Carr deal that are much more team friendly and do represent a sort of middle ground, right?

Between the Goff-Wentz deals where they're so hard to get out of and you're there's so much guaranteed money you've we've seen quarterback the team-friendly quarterback deals that have big sticker shock but are actually somewhat flexible and i do wonder if they'll be made perhaps more teams can push that on like a quarterback like Baker I don't know if that's possible I kind of doubt it um in the same way that you were talking about how like owners don't want uh Houston to give into that Cascade I am like agents are not like you know they don't want and they're you know they want the quarterback market to stay what it is um but I don't I just don't see a team doing that. I think,

who do we've got coming out? We've got Baker and Lamar Baker. Yeah. Josh Allen. That's going to be the Ravens. The Ravens are in the kind of the same spot too, man. Like I know people,

it's not cool to like say the Ravens, you know, the Ravens don't, don't win playoff games. Quarterback wins. But like, I keep explaining to people the difference, in my opinion. People obviously bash Mahomes for his poor play in the Super Bowl.

People are like, whoa. Well, Lamar gets more backlash. Well, the reason why is because the offense looks vastly different in the playoffs than it does in the regular season. That's why people get on the Ravens. Like, I think the Ravens are kind of stuck, too. Well, the Ravens and the Browns are perfect. A B test for like putting your quarterback in a good position.

I mean, I'm not, Lamar's not, is not Deshaun Watson or whatever. He's not in that tier of like God level elevating the team around him, you know, and very few quarterbacks are, but like the Browns have done everything you can, they can for baker mayfield to succeed quarterback friendly offense coach scheme weapons offensive line crushes the ravens that by the end of the year it was like lamar jackson with the team on his back right and even if yeah so i think you have you have to factor that into like considering their relative value i give i think the ravens i i will give one more year i think the ravens have to factor that into like considering their relative value. I give, I think the Ravens, I will give one more year.

I think the Ravens have to go get like Allen Robinson. You get a big wide receiver. Like you just have to get, you give yourself one year with a stud wide receiver, right? If it doesn't work this year, if you get yourself that wide receiver and it doesn't work this year, do you consider like, hey, this, we tried it. It just didn't work.

Or do you just kind of just keep going until it's over. I would argue also they could consider changing the offensive coordinator before that they would change. I would. Yes. The passing game is very limited. And that's what I want to see too. I want to see Lamar because he played a pro-style offense in college.

And they don't do – but maybe it's a wide receiver issues. I I'm excited to see, I mean, everyone's gonna get paid. Baker will get paid. Lamar will get paid. Josh Allen will get paid. And I think they're all going to end up kind of in the same spot, right? Josh Allen, we saw last year's probably like the top, right? Or not. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would think so. And that's not a diss on Josh Allen. Like any, any quarterback who plays at that

level very few are able to sustain that kind of performance over many years do you have your hot take for Zach Wilson Trevor Lawrence yet have you gone that far in your draft in your draft uh well okay so Lawrence is my unequivocal number one so I've I've prepped the quarterbacks I'm still working on my draft prep but I've gotten through the quarterbacks. I'm still working on my draft prep, but I've gotten through the quarterbacks. Wilson's just a goddamn black box. How much have you watched of him? I haven't watched a film of him. I've watched him play so far.

I've watched more Trevor Lawrence. But I just think that the Zach Wilson hype is because we've gotten tired of talking about Trevor Lawrence being so good, and we're trying to find something else. Because it's funny. People hold Trevor Lawrence being so good and we're trying to find something else. Because, you know, it's funny. People hold Trevor Lawrence's playoff games against him. Oh, he didn't play as well against Alabama or against Ohio State. Zach Wilson lost to Coastal Carolina.

Like, are we going to use that? He played, like, Louisiana State Tech this season. Like, we can't do that. We can't do that, folks. And that's what makes it so hard to evaluate him. Frankly, all of the quarterbacks in this draft, by the way, are on like Trey Lance. It's the same way when you watch those, those games, like against, you know, Boise state or James Madison, or I don't know. His team was dominant too. Even, even though it's FCS.

Like, the relative – like, the biggest shock to me watching Zach Wilson is how good BYU's offensive line was. I had no idea. They're just crushing dudes. And it's a really cool, fun offense, which, again, I had no idea. Like, I fully concede that outside of the Coastal game, I didn't watch a single BYU game before I started my prep. And it just – it's like, obviously, he's got a freak show arm

and more mobility than I thought. But in terms of, like, a prediction for him based on the context he was playing, it's really hard to do. And that's the thing about – you we love what palma homes and rogers can do outside the pocket right even like a deshawn or wilson we talked about already but like justin feels just staying in the pocket making throws excites me more than zach wilson running around and chucking the ball deep right like is it aren't in in rhythm plays shouldn't we value those more than wild, out-of-the-pocket plays that guys make?

That's a really good point. I mean, I would say Wilson is a bit of a home run hitter. You know, he's kind of like looking. It's interesting to me. And my friend Ben Silek wrote a great piece about Wilson being this, like a sense. Everyone thinks he's like, oh,

of course the jets Lafleur Shanahan offense, you know, BYU. He would not do. Yeah. Well, when you watch him, he's not content settling for those middle of the field layups that,

you know, you'd want your quarterback to do in that offense. Like he is, he is going hunting. Right. And often, and he is going hunting, right? And often, and this is part because of the level of competition, part because of his arm, he caught the big game and that's really cool. But I actually think Justin Fields makes more sense in that kind of offense than a Zach Wilson, which I don't know.

It seems like Wilson's gaining hype over him at this point. But I will say, Jeff, I think they're all the sensible first-round quarterbacks. They all have really cool attributes and upside. I watch them all, and I don't think there's an obvious dud in the bunch. Well, the thing about these quarterbacks now is they tend to all be sort of them all and I don't I don't think there's an obvious dud in the bunch well I just think about these quarterbacks now it's like they tend to all be sort of like manageable in the NFL where all these guys I think are going to be bust like they're just not like Josh Allen for example Lamar Jackson like I I look these guys coming out of college like well completion percentage

not not gonna be a lot of passes can't and then you come in the NFL it's like doesn't none of that matter Justin Herbert right I watch him play four years in the nfl i was much uh college i was much higher than other people were i didn't see this happening like these guys just come in and joe burrow let's let it rip early on and i feel like now if i say hey x guy's not gonna do well it's just not it feels like that's not the case you can't really yeah and that's that's well it's also because of the nfl like i think there was an nfl where all the quarterbacks were describing would have busted frankly like 10 years ago and now coaching staffs that like just nfl offenses have finally not only has there been a lot of trickle up from college and of course we talk about all the time but they've just gotten a lot

better at tailoring their offenses to the abilities of the quarterbacks as they come in and that makes it that makes it less likely certainly that a mobile quarterback will bust um just because there's that floor already and you're you've got a coach typically now who knows how to use it and is willing to use it like that was i mean michael vick wasted years of his career because he played for coaches that didn't understand how to design offense around him i i'm i play these offenses like i i it used to be where you just kind of do like the coach had his plan that's what he always did it didn't matter who his personnel was and he just and now obviously we see even with andy reed and sean all these guys i mean sean payne's running this stuff with

tasem hill which i would argue is ridiculous but nonetheless like older coaches decide to run something different andy reed's been a fascinating all in doing this for for a long time all right a couple more questions before we get you out of here. Overtime rules became a thing last week. The Ravens proposing. Okay, I am of the opinion, and I know it's an opinion that's not very popular, that overtime should be sudden death, okay? I played 60 minutes, all right?

You've had plenty of opportunities to score, stop the other team. Overtime should not be fair. The game is not fair, right? Nothing about the game is fair. I'm good with overtime being the way it is. Obviously, a lot of people think I'm crazy. The Ravens proposed this convoluted thing. You can go read it somewhere.

I can't explain it. I can try to explain it if you want. Please try to explain it. I'm not smart enough to explain it. I totally had you on. I just want to get back to this. So you, as a Chiefs fan, you were cool with the AFC Championship and Patrick Mahomes not getting the ball,

and that he's losing that year to New England. New England converted three third and tens on that drive. So you didn't mind. You weren't angry at all. You were like, this is fine. No, no. And the Chiefs should have scored in the first half of that game. But here's the thing.

That year, great example, right? In that year, two overtime title games, the road team won one. And no, was it that year the road team won both or the next year? Was it the Saints? Saints-Rams was that year too, right? Yeah, so both road teams won overtime.

One got the coin toss and one did not. Like it's 50-50. It just... The Ravens, actually actually i don't have their proposal in front of me but i think it's like 58 of the teams that win go on to win which is not ideal uh coin toss yeah like since the rules have been changed i i know that um last year heading to last year that called the college rule the winner of the coin toss won most. In the NFL, it was a little bit less than college football.

And everyone wants a college football plan. All right. So Raven's plan is – All right. So here – Go ahead. Okay. So there's a coin toss.

But the idea is to minimize the importance of the coin toss and put more on actual football and decision making. So let's say you, Jeff Schwartz, let's say you're the Chiefs and I'm the Patriots. Or you be the Patriots and I'll be the Chiefs. So you win. What you get to do is decide where to spot the ball. Then I get to choose whether I'm on offense or defense. But you're driving the length

of the field regardless. So people are, that's something that confused people because they're like, well, if you spot the 10, wouldn't you just play off? No, it's like, no, no, no, no, no. You have to go either like anywhere

between, you know, 50 to 100 yards of error. So you're playing me, Patrick Mahomes. You're like, okay, Mina's probably going to go on offense. It's sudden death, by the way. probably gonna go on offense it's sudden death by the way and it's a field goal of sudden death so yes okay so Mina's probably gonna go on offense because she's got Patrick Mahomes so I'm gonna spot her at the five and dare her to play offense

and then let's say I don't convert a first down. You basically won. Yeah. Because then you just kick a field goal. That's how it works. So there's no punting in this overtime? No. No, you just spot the ball. No, no, no. So when you win, you get to decide where to spot with an anticipation of what the other team's going to do.

Right, so ball to five. Let's say that I choose ball at the five. You choose offense. You can then, you know, now it's fourth down. You can punt the ball, right? You don't have to go for it on fourth down? Yes. Okay.

So you can punt the ball in the yard and your field goal is raised. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I saw that someone put up the 38-yard line. Sorry about that. The 38-yard line was like the ideal spot to put the ball. That's right. So the Ravens, I don't know if this is in the proposal that the 38 yard line was like the ideal spot to put the ball that's not so the raymond's uh

i don't know if this isn't a proposer or someone i they're thinking it's probably gonna be around like the 15 13 the 15 to 13 yard line it's the ideal spot to put the ball yeah this is uh but it's fun okay because let's because let's say, let's say, okay, let's say, let's say you're like, you know what? Okay, Mina, Kimes, she's the Chiefs. Or let's say you're the Chiefs on the pass and it was the AFC Championship. Yeah. And you're like, all right, I'm going to put Mina Kimes, Bill Belichick at the five. And I'm Belichick and Brady and I'm like, you know what?

F it. I think we can get this. We're going to get offense. And let's say we drive and score and win, and you never get the ball. We kick the field goal. Then the next day, instead of Chiefs fans being all pissy about, you know, like the coin toss, people are much more likely to talk about how crazy it was that I drove that far.

I mean, in that AFC Championship game, the Patriots drove 80 yards for touchdown and converted three third and tens. Like, it's the same thing. We choose to focus on the stupid coin toss out of all things about it. I mean, look, it's definitely different. And to your point and what you said on Twitter is exactly right. It will move the talking point from bringing the coin toss to bringing what else. But once everyone figures out the 14-yard line is the place to put the ball, then all that discussion is gone.

Oh, oh, well, he put the right spot and like he went whatever X amount of yards to, to get there 60 yards to kick a field goal. I don't know. It's never going to pass. This is all fun to talk about,

but the conservative NFL is passing this 0%. I also just love that the Ravens, the team that has Justin Tucker for post field goal, sudden death guys. Just put it, put it, put it at the 43 and we'll win the game. All right. Last thing, last kind of topic. So what I find so,

not fascinating about your Twitter feed, but just kind of your extension is that you are very analytical, but you also take the approach of like a player too. Like you watch the film and you combine both those which I think makes you unique right like there's the analytics crowd that's like analytics I'm not gonna take into the opinion of a player there's players obviously they're very boneheaded and I'm I used to be one of

those I don't think I am anymore how do you combine both of those because I think it's a very sweet spot to be in where you you know the numbers but also I think you are very in tune with how players view the game as well thank you well you just watch and so the seahawks are a great example actually for of this because um you know there's a lot of um in the analytics community or whatever there's i think it's maybe an excessive amount of focus on early down pass rate and you know we gotta pass pass pass play action pass pass pass pass never run um i watched the seahawks very closely second half last season first they did i think there's like a narrative out there that they like pete carroll came down and they stopped passing no they kept passing a lot on early downs uh you know the they went from like

the most in the nfl to like top 10 whatever, but watching them. And then as teams were playing more middle field, open coverages against them, it wasn't just covered too. Teams were also giving them light boxes and basically inviting them to run the football and anticipating that they were going to pass in early downs. And when you watched, there were a fair amount of games where in the second half of the season where watching them,

I felt like they should run more on early downs and take what defenses were giving them. Are you allowed to say that? No. Is the Seattle Twitter going to come after you now? So I guess I just bring up that example to say, I do believe generally teams should pass more on early downs it is more efficient but i also think you have to watch and see it's not only just about like what are our skills what

are we good at whatever it's also about like okay i'm gonna watch and see what what does this defense look like how is the game script actually playing out and consider all of those things as well see that's what you're thank you that's what you're, thank you. That's what you're supposed to. I do think the analyst crowd gets a little beat up sometimes. Like if you actually talk to a lot of them, which I do, I think it's, I like to learn about what other, how people view the game. I think especially the, a lot of the numbers are very valuable.

Like they're very, they're great when you go on TV, not so much. It's hard to spit out EPA on television, but especially like written content or podcasts, you know, they're great numbers to have. They get a little bit of bad rap, right? I mean, there's a lot of, of back and forth on social media from like the football guys analytics. I feel like we're closer to the middle than probably it feels on Twitter. I think both, both extremes are really bad. And both, most people on Twitter are bad, um, generally, and like the tone of the discourse is not good but like for me how i feel about bringing analytics to sports media not

actually play calling or being involved in teams is just let's actually talk let's use statistics correctly like i've made it my life mission to get my colleagues to stop saying when a team carries the ball runs the ball x amount of times they're gonna win or whatever even even i even by the way i did have a coach um who said an oc in my career said who did the rule 53 like 53 if we run the ball plus completions over 53 we're gonna win the game not great so those are things i think that um and and you know like all the players that i'm now i work with marcus spears dan orlowski ryan clark they think that's they don't they think it's dumb too they get it like they are dan and marcus are fully on the you don't have to establish the run for

play action to work and they know that not just because statistics have told them, but also we have watched the effing Buffalo Bills last year. They barely ran the ball and play action was still working. So I think a lot of this comes through just conversations born of both watching and bringing numbers to the table and trying to find a happy medium. It still kind of hurts my heart a little bit when people say that. You don't need to run the ball because to play extra pass, because,

and I've said this many times before is, you know, defenses read run to pass. I mean, that's why it still works because linebackers still read the run first. So even if you don't run the football and you fake the run, they still read that first. They still step up and then you can hit it behind him.

But secondly, I love talking to linemen. Yeah. No, I was going to say, I like, I love talking to linebackers about that they're key you know like when they're watching the offense like the it's well it's very nuanced and again it's not it's not as simple as like you have to run x times for it to work or have this level of running back it's more okay like what is the actual flow of the game what what is the offensive line doing what have we

what are our expectations based on watching this team, et cetera. And that's where the part about, you know, why is an offensive lineman? I think it is important again, not to run the ball 25 times, but to kind of establish the idea of run blocking, because to me it's about the run block. The, the, the, the initial sell, first of all, helps the whole offense operate because it helps the linebacker step up, safety step up. But you only do that when you're confident that you can actually run block.

And so if you do some of it throughout the game, then when you go into your block, when you actually sell the run, you have to sell. A lot of times you're on an island. Like the right tackle, if you're running a plaquette to the right, open side, weak side zone, he's by himself. Well, guess what? If you've run the ball a little bit throughout the game,

that block is just easier. It's just easier for you, and you feel more confident doing it. And the linebacker who's keying the guards, it just – so to me, there is some value, and I know that it's hard to explain that because unless you've done it, maybe you don't feel that way. But that's why I think there is a little bit of value still in running the ball instead of Plaxman pass. I think – and just running the ball, period. Gosh and pass i think and just running the ball period um gosh it was at the bills in the playoffs this year where like i was like man

the absence of zach moss is really being felt um by the end with them and like i said i was talking about the seahawks earlier um you know it does matter and it's and you can't pass it 1,000% of the time. And there's things that are happening on the field. Players get tired, and that can't be quantified or factored in. If you throw the ball too much in the NFL, you know, and you get a bunch of three and outs, like your defense is exhausted. That's what happened all the way back with Chip Kelly way back in the day. His defense played two full games

more snaps than any other defense in the NFL. You just get tired. And so there is, I get it, man. Passing the ball, I'm a Chiefs fan. They don't care to run the football. I've watched them for years now. I remember, I never told a story. I saw, they should have run the ball

in the Super Bowl a little bit. That's what I was just about to say. You and I talked about that. We both thought in the first half, but it wasn't, I mean, again, I hate this thing.

It's like three more times. It's literally three more times. We're talking about like four drives max and like two or three plays where it's like, hey, get around there. Before,

lastly, before the Super Bowl they won in Miami, I had lunch with, or dinner with my brother and I went up to the team hotel. We ate like it's at the mall, at some restaurant at the mall. And I remember asking, I had lunch with, or dinner with my brother and I went up to the team hotel. We ate like at the mall, at some restaurant at the mall.

And I remember asking him to think like, hey, you just like don't care about running the ball anymore. Right? And he just like giggles. He goes, nope,

not at all. Like they just, you know, they just, they just morphed into, and Andy Reid forever has never really wanted to run the football.

He does it just because I think he sort of has to. I think he'd throw the ball every play if he could. And the Super Bowl did hurt him him but it's your point it was like three or four more times it wasn't like right you need 17 rushes from your running back you're not going to win the nfl you will i mean very specific times you can do that so look i'm i'm i'm all for scoring points um i just i like running the football still i going to, my big fat offensive lineman self will never get over it. All right, Mina, thank you for joining us.

This was fabulous. And enjoy the, I guess, the Russell Wilson sweepstakes. Happening, not happening? I'm ready for a 10. Are you ready for Mariners baseball? Ichiro was taking BP today. I saw that. I saw that.

So great. Being a Mariners fan is great because you just have zero expectations ever. It's a good way to live life. Aren't they expanding playoffs? Like you should get in at some point.

Next year is, so they got a lot of young, I don't know if you're a baseball, the farm system's been really good. I'm a Giants baseball fan. I was hardcore when they were good. Yeah, when they were good, it was great.

I mean, I stayed up every night on the East Coast and watched at least three or four innings of every single game. And they just suck, so I don't pay attention as much. I mean, I don't know if I can name you like four players on our team heading into it. I probably should learn. I mean, I do like baseball. At this point, I'm more anti-Dodgers.

Like, I just don't want the Dodgers to win. I'm kind of out on the Dodgers now, too. Why are you out all of a sudden uh you know uh who did the bauer i don't like him he sucks um and then he said something the other day he pitched with one eye closed like he says the dumbest stuff like okay he just thinks he's like so great i don't know if that doesn't help you annoying i know he's so annoying i just find him like very self-aggrandizing and irritating so we can root against the dodgers um and you can root for your nets when they play the lakers in the finals and we'll be adversaries oh man i honestly that whole nets thing has gone it's

kind of like performance art now where it's kind of my I'm actually in Nets like it's so weird I can't tell the difference between troll it started as shit posting because I just love shit posting and then it turned into a real thing where like Zach Lowe's like can you come on my podcast this weekend talk about the Nets and I was like fuck that's like the most popular NBA podcast people are gonna be so mad at me. Did you do it? No, not yet, but I'm going to. I actually have been watching. They're really fun to watch.

They're good. Of course. Yeah, it's been fun. Three Hall of Famers on one team. Of course, they'd be great. All right, Mina. Thank you. I appreciate it.

That was Mina Kimes of ESPN NFL Live and the Mina Kimes Show featuring Lenny. We really appreciate her coming on. That was wonderful. Got a tiny bit of baseball talk in there as well. Maybe we'll do some baseball. It's a basketball. Some more gambling. I don't know.

We'll see what the future holds for the podcast. Please rate, review, subscribe. Really appreciate it. And we'll be back later this week. Talk to you guys later.