George Kamel - 98% of People Are Making This Financial Mistake | Michael Easter

Episode Date: June 10, 2026

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Humans are sort of wired to do the next easiest, most comfortable thing. It's like everyone knows if you just take the stairs, you're going to be better off in the long run. But we don't do that. The world now more than ever has been set up to make people do these things that feel real good right now, but you look back on you're like, why did I do that? That made my life worse. So when people look back on their lives, the things they go, that was really valued me. That gave me meaning. That was important to me. It's never these things that were handed to people that were really easy.

It's always the things that were hard to do, hard to get, because ultimately in hardship is where people learn things about themselves. What is a healthy version of discomfort when it comes to money? I think it is... Is your brain wired to keep you broke? That's the question we're answering today with Michael Easter. He's the best-selling author of books like The Comfort Crisis and Scarcity Brain, and his big thesis, being comfortable is the culprit of most of our problems in life.

It's the reason we're all feeling sick, stuck, and avoiding taking the stairs like my toddler avoids brushing our teeth at bedtime. Is he right? Stick around to find out. And big thanks to delete me for sponsoring this channel. It's a great comfort. Michael, welcome. Thanks for having me, man. I'm excited to be here. I've been very excited about this for a long time.

I think your content perfectly crosses over into my content because there is a comfort crisis when it comes to money. There's a scarcity brain when it comes to money. Yes. And you've said that our modern world, rewards comfort over growth and ease over effort making us sick and stuck. So I'll add to that,

I think it's also making us broke. Yeah. How did we get here? How did we get here? Well, I will say that humans are sort of wired to do the next easiest, most comfortable thing, even when it doesn't help us in the long run.

So the stat I like to use is 2%. 2% of people take the stairs when there's also an escalator available. It's like everyone knows if you just take the stairs, you're going to be better off in the long run. But we don't do that. like we're wired for the easy, comfortable thing. And I think how it applies to money is,

it feels really good to buy that thing on Amazon that you don't need, the shiny new object. It feels good to just punt debt down the road so you can have the money now. And when we get trapped in that, though, by not sort of tackling the harder thing, by taking the metaphorical stairs, if you will, that can start to spin out of control and just causes more problems down the road. So in my world, taking the stairs is paying attention to your money, doing the budget, saving up until you have the cash that sort of delayed gratification, building the investing muscle instead of going, I need to get rich quick.

All of that is the metaphorical stairs. And I've been guilty of this because I don't take the stairs as often as I should. My hands are full. I take the elevator up. One floor, Michael, you'd hate me for this. We're going to try and change that. And Deloney, my friend, Dr. John Deloney, that you know, he's rucking up a flight of stairs just to feel something.

I got in his head. I live in that man's head. he goes up the stairs. You really do. So how did you develop this like 2% mindset? How does it apply in your life now? Well, it came from an actual study. I mean, literally scientists just stood at a staircase in an escalator and counted people. And I read that. And it was sort of like one of those aha moments, right? Because you're like, oh, that explains like so much about human behavior. Because it's not really about the stairs. It's just like a metaphor for all these different decisions we make every day. Now, like you and not taking the actual stairs, like my background,

I've done some really sort of dumb things that were comfortable in the short term, but like, hurt me in the long run. I got sober 11 years ago, right? I was kind of like leaning into drinking because that gave me this like instant relief. I felt great. And then the next day, you're like, good God, what did I do? Right. So that moment sort of made me realize, oh, like improving your life, it takes doing things that are hard in the short term. And it's kind of, going to be a struggle for a while. But then you come out the other side of that and you're better off. The world now more than ever has been set up to make people do these things that feel real good right now, but you look back on it, you're like, why did I do that? That made my life worse. And it disincentivizes

also doing the harder thing that improves your life. So it's easy to point a finger and say, well, the companies are the villains. They're predatory. They're marketing to us to get us to spend more. But where do we play the part? Like, is our brain wired to keep us broke? We play an important part. So I do not fault companies for trying to make money. That is the job of a company so long as they are following the laws. And we can go, oh, well, the laws are BS.

It's like, all right, well, go to the voting booth. I think where we come in is that, you know, we ultimately need to make the decision. No one makes you finance the burrito, right? So it takes a certain level of awareness and being willing to go, okay, maybe I just need to go home and cook that rice and chicken that's been in the fridge for three days and microwave it rather than financing this burrito. But of course, to get to your question, like, is our brain sort of set up to lead us into the easy thing? Yes, it is. And so you have to kind of push back against the fact that you're almost wired to do what's going to be the easiest.

And it just takes that level of awareness. But I think the important point is that once you start to get reps in, that decision starts to be easier to make. Unfortunately, I don't have like the easiest path out of the suck, but I can say one thing that helps is make the harder decision easier to make. So, for example, if you got a problem shopping on Amazon, it's like, well, dude, like take out your credit card information so it doesn't auto fill, maybe set up some guidelines like, if I'm going to put something on my cart,

I'm going to wait at least three days to go back to it. And often, I would say 90% of time people go back. back and I go, yeah, why did I need that, you know, spiralizer for my kitchen? That is so true, though. It's funny how difficult it is for us to add friction back into our life once the friction has been removed for us. Because now it's like, I don't want delete an app or take out my debit card info. Or in my case, I decided to cut up my credit card, close the account, never use one again. And people look at me like I'm a crazy person because I've been using a debit card in cash for the last 13 years and surviving in society. So I think also

So there's like a financial literacy piece. They've been told their whole life, you've got to get a credit score so that you can get an apartment and a car and a house and all these things. And therefore, you need a credit card and just try to be wise with it if you can. Just put some gas on it. And here we are $1.3 trillion in credit card debt? It's crazy. So are humans just, are we just, you know, fallible creatures, thanks to the fall of man where it's like we can't be trusted? I think that could be it.

I'm going to get a little sciencey and dorky right now. There's this idea that's called prevalence-induced concept change. It's discovered by these two psychology researchers at Harvard. Long story short, it explains that we adapt to our circumstances. So they applied it to problems. The fewer problems people actually face, their lives don't actually become more satisfying. They don't relax and go, oh, my God, things are so great. They start looking for more hollow problems to find.

So this is a science of first world problems. But you can also apply it to modern comforts. So today we think it's like a huge pain to have to drive down to the grocery store, walk the aisles, drive it back home. Well, why wouldn't I just use Instacart? Who cares if there's a $10 fee, right? But that used to just be everyday behavior 10 years ago to go to the grocery store. And also, by the way, like 200 years ago, you had to like grow the hay and fresh it and do all these things. And those people weren't sitting around going, this is ridiculous, right?

They didn't know any other way. Exactly. We adapt. Now, the good news is that that works the other way. It just takes a minute. So you just have to keep doing that thing, and that becomes, in your case, probably the first day you cut up your credit card, you were like, well, this kind of sucks. I don't have this thing that I could just go, you know, buy a cool new pair of boots immediately. It's going to come out of my debit account.

Like, yeah, this is hard. But now it's just like, yeah, I just use my debit card. It's not a big deal. Yeah. When people tell them, I get free flights, I can save up for a flight. I'm a grown man. I know how to budget, you know. People value things that are more harder to get, I would say, that have more friction.

So when people look back on their lives, the things they go, that was really valued me. That gave me meaning. That was important to me. It's never these things that were handed to people, that were really easy. It's always the things that were hard to do, hard to get, because ultimately in hardship is where people learn things about themselves. Well, even people who are doing well financially, they're debt-free, they're investing, they're building wealth.

there's still this feeling of I can't stop spending. Or on the other side, you follow our plan and you go, I can't get myself to spend. So there's these two sort of like, if it's a barbell, there's people at either side. How do we get to this healthy in between? Like what's the right amount of discomfort versus comfort when it comes to spending? So when it comes to spending, especially on items,

in my substack, I do a monthly column called gear not stuff. Now the framing is gear is an item that you use. for a higher purpose, right? It has a purpose in your life. You're like using it to have an experience. Stuff on the other hand is things that you just sort of buy because. To acquire it. Just to acquire it. Because I think, oh, my life will be better once I put that brand on my body. That's really going to solve all my problems and make me whole. So I think that framing, at least for a lot of my readers, has helped them a lot. When they have an item in the cart, they go, is this gear or is this stuff? Is this something I'm going to use that really enhance?

my life by helping me reach these larger goals I have for myself. So it takes some introspection on the front end. It's like, what do I want to do with my life? How do I want to live? What do I really value? That's funny to say that because in my book, I share this smart spender framework. And it goes SMART. The S is for self-awareness.

And you have to ask this question. Will this add value to my life? And then it goes into motive. Am I buying this with the right motive? A for affordability. Do I have the money to actually purchase this thing? in full are for research. Is this the best option retailer in price?

And then T's for timing is now the right time to buy it, you know, based on opportunity costs and financial priorities. And I found that helps me just sort of like quickly do a quick brain check to go, yeah, this is good. This is not retail therapy. This is not just decor in my life to waste money. So I like that idea of gear of like, what is the utility of this thing? And not everything has to have this like utilitarian thing to it.

But that at least helps you filter through. what value is this bringing to me? And I love the M motive. Why am I doing this in the first place? It's usually a story, especially with things. It's like if I buy this piece of clothing, I'm going to look a certain way, and then people are going to relate to me differently

in my world that's just going to change immediately. It's like, that doesn't ever happen. If you already have the item at home, too, there needs to be that introspection. Do you have something around that you could already use for that? Right. Well, you also talk about these sort of instant rewards being a financial trap and the scarcity loop.

Yeah. In your book Scarcity Brain, how it keeps people in these cycles. How does that work when it comes to spending? Is this almost an addiction we need to detox from? Like, how does that scarcity loop work and how do we get out of it? Yeah, so I live in Las Vegas, and this is something I learned about by literally going into a casino lab. So this is a real working casino in Las Vegas, but it's used entirely for research. Do people know that that are going to the casino?

Yeah, they're on it. But they're being observed. I mean, it is like a working casino, but it's just the public's not up to the public. It's all researchers. The people who are gaming are generally study subjects. So they're really looking at like what works to make money. Like what subtle ways can we shift the environment? Can we shift the games?

Long story short from that is that if you want to get humans to do things repeatedly, often to their detriment, there's this thing called the scarcity loop. So it's got opportunity, unpredictable rewards. Quick repeatability. So opportunity, you get something of value, unpredictable rewards. You don't know when that's going to happen now. And you don't know how valuable it's going to be.

And then quick repeatability, you can immediately repeat the behavior to see if you get it again, right? You think about a slot machine. Pull the handle, real spin. You're like, could win a buck, could win a million bucks. Could win, nothing could happen too. And then you can immediately repeat that. So that starts in Las Vegas in slot machines.

It takes slot machines from being like nothing, something no one ever played, to being the cash cows. So now, like, 85% of casino profits are from slot machines. Then you start to see all these other industries go, why are those people sitting at slot machines for like five hours at a time? They're glued. When they know the house always wins. And their eyes are like glazed over. It's like something is taken over their body. So then you start to see this being put in a bunch of other things.

It's what makes social media work. It's the same like unpredictable reward cycle, dating apps. Tinder took off when they basically said, hey, let's do for dating, what slot machines did for gambling. But you also see it online with things like timed sales, for example, with pop up 20%, whatever it might be. Oh yeah, those little gaming wheels are the new thing. Every website I go to, they're like, hey, before you buy anything, spin the wheel and see what you get. I'm like, I know it's going to be the highest reward out of the wheel. to make me think, I'm so special.

I got 20% off. And then to go back to the quick repeatability thing, which is really we're talking about speed, the faster you can do something, in our case, buy something, the more likely you are to buy it. So you start to see buy now buttons, right? You start to see, like, once online retail is like,

you used to have to go through a lot of steps to buy something online. There would be a page for, like, check that your card is right, next page, fill out, your address. Next page. Fill out your credit card. Next page. Okay, hit confirm. Now it's just one sheet, auto fill. Bam. I love that companies want our experience to be frictionless, but it's at our detriment if we're not self-aware. If you're not aware of it, yeah. So in slot machines,

once slot machines remove the handles, which takes some time to pull, the real spin, takes a minute, and switch them with spin buttons. But you can just... Gambling went from the average gamer playing 400 games an hour to 900. Wow. You see that same thing play out online.

So, you know, when people, when I think about that, to put it to a practical perspective, it's like, we all need to buy stuff online. Like, you know,

as much as I'd love to say, hey, put in friction to, like, go down to Target or go down to Walmart. Yeah. Like,

do that if you can, but some stuff you just need to get online, right? It's like niche stuff. Like those boots. You probably didn't buy them in a store.

Yeah. Maybe you did. No, it's true. find ways to slow it down. So take off all your auto fill. That way, if you want to buy it, you got to go find your card. You've got to put the info in.

And then I will tell people, put it in the cart, wait 72 hours. Think about it. Well, you also talk about the difficulty of delaying gratification in a world engineered for that instant reward. So do you think most people realize that they are inside this machine? Like, why don't we see past the gimmicks and the marketing strategies designed to keep us spending? Well, I think that it's more rewarding in the short term to just buy the thing. It's exciting for a minute, right? It's like you buy and you're like, you're like, you're like a buzzkill for yourself.

If you're like, yeah, you're a buzz kill for yourself. That's good way to put it. And then when it's coming in the mail, you're like, oh, that thing's going to come, right? It's going to be great. And then it arrives and you're like, oh, I got it. Cool. And then it fizzles out quickly until you do it again. Yeah, so we value these sort of short term rewards at the expense of.

long-term rewards. We're really wired to do the thing that is going to be, serve us somehow in the short term and not think long-term. That's just kind of how we're wired. And it doesn't serve us, though, because now the world is just full of, like, we can just kind of get it. Just commoditize. We can just go get it on Amazon in two hours. Yeah, the average home contains 10 to 50,000 items. That's crazy. Before, I mean, even 100 and about 200 years ago, people generally had a handful of things that were often past town generations. Here's a fun stat. Nails used to be a really hot item

because nails are hard to make. So it delayed building. It did all these things. Arsonists would literally burn down buildings in order to steal the nails. It took about, I think it was like 10 minutes for a nail. Now machines make about 1,000 nails a minute. Wow.

Now I'll apply that just like to everything, right? So this is why we have this old sort of, you know, hardware to get more stuff and you end up with a house that has, you know, 20, 30,000 items, whatever it might be. Now, I will say, like, this is a good problem to have, that we have so much abundance. We figured out all this tech to live well, but at the same time, it does have downsides. Like, right, everything has a cost. And one of the costs of this is that you can just buy so much stuff now.

We have this credit card industry that you get in financial trouble. That's what's crazy, is in a world with so much abundance and in a country where we are thriving economically by a lot of measures compared to other countries, the land of opportunity, everyone is still so broke. Like, we're getting more and more in debt, even though we have the ability to make more money. Yes, wages haven't kept up with certain industries and inflation and all that. But all things considered, the fact that you can just, a 16-year-old can go out and start a business online, a 12-year-old can become a YouTuber, just got this call yesterday in the Ramsey show, 12 years old, making $5,000 a month. And I'm like, our ancestors couldn't, they couldn't just go do that. And yet a lot of people are paycheck to paycheck, and they're making $300,000, and they're still paycheck to paycheck.

The statute of 51% of people making over $100,000 live paycheck to paycheck. So it's not an income issue. We know that. It's exactly what you're talking about, is the more we make, the more we're going to spend. Lifestyle creep. You're going to fill your life with the kind of things someone who makes $150,000 should have. Yeah, exactly. And that's a story, and that's just like adapting to our conditions.

I mean, so back to the idea that you can move that goal post. I mean, I think it's valuable for people to go do experiments where they really have to sort of go without for a while. Just go to the extremes. Good example is that, you know, I like to do a lot of outdoorsy things. I wanted this long hike in southern Utah last year. It was like 45 days. Whoa. You're living out of a tent.

Everything you have, you have to be able to carry so you don't really use that much. And so, like, once you've been in a situation like that, you start to realize, man, I'm doing okay. And I had, like, all my stuff is in my backpack. Like, how much do I really? need. And it also goes like, and then when I get back to my normal life, it's like, okay, I got to travel for work, I got to book a hotel. I'm okay with the hotel that's cheap because I lived out of a tent. Like it just resets what you think is, and if you even think about it, like 50 years ago, if I took my grandparents and teleported them into what I consider kind of the crappy hotel,

they'd be like, this place is great. How is that screen? How is that screen flat? Yeah. What is this? What is that in your hand? This thing, this little spy device to your iPhone, you know, like, And so we really can adapt, is what I'm trying to say. We're like a goldfish. It's like we're going to expand to the tank that we have and really push the limits. And if we don't have much, we're going to be content there. Yeah. And I've like my work takes me to travel to a lot of places.

Developing countries, middle of nowhere, war zones. I found people can be happy anywhere. It can really be happy. That's the ultimate goal, right? Is we all just want to be happy. The problem is we often think it's going to come from buying something or, you know, reaching a certain number of paycheck, getting the certain brand of car or whatever it might be.

It's not. It's like in all the basics that go back to the good book. Yeah. Let's pause for a minute to talk about something super uncomfortable. Like when the waiter tells you to enjoy your meal and you say, you too. Also uncomfortable, though, your personal info on the internet being packaged, sold, and resold across hundreds of sites,

which in turn makes you a prime target for scammers and spammers. And that's why I love and use delete me, a sponsor of today's video. They'll remove your info from hundreds of data broker sites and send you a customer report of all their hard work and how much time they saved you, giving you back your privacy and your peace of mind. So go check it out and get 20% off their annual plans at join deleteme.com slash George. Now Michael and I have been talking about how comfort could be the problem that's holding us back. But there's a caveat, he never said your clothes have to be uncomfortable. So let me tell you about Cozy Earth, another sponsor of today's video. Their bamboo jogger sets

are soft enough to sleep in, put together enough to answer the door, and honestly, the outfit I keep reaching for after a hard day's work of sitting in a climate-controlled studio. So whether you're taking the stairs or chasing an overstimulated and tired toddler, trust me, you've earned this. Head to cozyearth.com slash George and use promo code Georgia at checkout for up to 20% off. Well, that's interesting. So I have this theory, and I've been noticing it in my own life, is I've started to have higher standards for things.

You know, I upgrade from the curig to the nicer coffee maker. Well, now I can never drink curing again. I find it disgusting. I can't drink coffee from a hotel or whatever it is. And so I find that the people who are happiest, and you can prove this theory right or wrong, they just don't have as many demands and as high of standards when it comes to what I prefer. Two creamers and one sugar, they're like, I'll take whatever you got. Like, they're just much more adaptable and flexible.

And I found as I get older, I'm more rigid and I'm not happy when I don't have it the way I want it. Yeah. So I am the problem. You wrote comfort crisis for me. First world problems. No, I think that's true. I mean, the more that you can just be okay with whatever's going on, the better off you're going to be.

You're going to be less frazzled day to day. Now, that said about your coffee maker. I recently watched your video where you went over 10 things that are worth buying for a lifetime. Yep. I'd like to make a couple submissions here. Please. Add to the list.

I would back your watch suggestion. One of the reasons is if you travel a lot, especially into different countries, a good watch can be liquidated for cash should things go bad that's true yeah so if I'm in a bind I go hey yeah I'll give you this watch right you could liquidate that $2,000

exactly I would also add a good coffee maker so I used to be curig I would go to Costco I would be like you know the kind of crappy coffee I'd be like I'd just buy the cheap one they're all broke coffee wasn't great so finally my wife she knows my like

don't want to spend too much she buys me a mocha master Oh yeah, that's a nice one. It looks nice, and I'm like, it'll look nice on the counter here, but how does it taste? Dude, it makes the best coffee in the world. That's the mix. You want aesthetic and quality. Exactly.

And I go out and get coffee less now because I have that. So I'm like, actually, I'm saving money over the long run. It's got like a five-year warranty. So there's the upside. So I would submit that as well. That's great. And then I would also say, if you were outdoorsy at all, do not skimp on outdoor gear. because...

Don't get the cheap stuff. Don't get the cheap stuff. Yeah. If you're a real outdoorsman, if you're me, I can survive on the cheap stuff because I don't go hard in the paint like you. But if you go overnight anywhere, I would say, like, you know, spend the extra 50 bucks so you don't get hypothermia and die out there. Yeah, there's a little actual safety issue. Yeah. When I spent a month in the Arctic from my book, The Comfort Crisis, and I was looking at, like, the boots, you know?

And I'm like, oh, man, these are so expensive. We're talking like $450 for a pair of boots. and O.F. is like, yeah, how much do you think it'll cost for them to amputate your foot if you buy the cheap ones, though? So you know you married well. Fair enough. We'll buy the $450 once, and she was right. So most people know what they should be doing to improve their health, their finances, but they struggle to do it, right? In a world where AI can give me the exact workout routine to become a bodybuilder, like, is it just a discipline issue? Do I not want it enough? Is it a behavior issue? And finally, can I become a bodybuilder?

Can you become a bodybuilder? Yeah. We'll talk about that later. All right. Might be a hard conversation. Yeah, offline. Here's what I'd say, because you threw in the competition. I get it.

You threw in two things. So you threw in finances. You also threw in health. Those feel like two different trajectories. So here's what I'll say. If what is stopping you from doing something that's going to be good for you is that it's hard, I would suggest people make it as simple and easy as possible at first. So when people go like, hey, I want to improve my health.

and they go on chat GPT and they're like, give me an ultra running plan. You know, it's like, it's not going to work. Like, start with a walk. Start with the stair metaphor. I start, like literally take the stairs. Park in the farthest spot. Okay, now you got some steps under your feet.

All right, could you work out once a week for 20 minutes? Just once this week. Could you do that? Next week, could you do it twice? And then make it as easy as possible along the way. Like, if your hang up is like, well, you know, the gym's out of the way. I got to go home and I got a change to my gym clothes.

And I got to drive to a gym. It's like, pack your gym clothes. Just removing friction. Like you can use those same mechanics of slot machines that are now and everything that get us to do a bunch of dumb stuff to do more smart stuff. So think about that. And then with finances, it's usually, you know, people buying dumb stuff like we talked about. So trying to add friction, trying to add friction to the easy things that hurt you is good. trying to make easy the hard things that will improve your life in the long run,

that's a good way to take away the friction. Yeah. As you're saying that, I'm like, oh, that's the Ramsey plan that, you know, 10 million plus people have followed. It works because it's literally called the baby steps. Yeah. We don't say, hey, all right, here's the most complex investing strategy you need to understand today. We go, hey, could you get $1,000 fast, just sell some stuff, put as much of that next paycheck away?

Great. All right. Now, what's your smallest debt? $500 on a credit card? Great. Put as much extra as you can towards just that one debt. Make minimum payments on the rest. Great.

Now you freed up that payment. Apply to the next one. So just one thing in front of you. Right, now get the emergency fund, three to six months of expenses. That's your one singular goal versus do nine things at once. You've got to be investing over here. And then over here you want to be doing this complex financial move. I think simplicity is undervalued in a world where there's so much noise and complexity.

Totally. So what is your challenge to those of us who have achieved financial people? We're living, quote-unquote, comfortable lives. How do we continue to stay uncomfortable after reaching our financial goals without it becoming this, like, addictive goalposts that keeps moving? You mean like people go, I'll be, five million bucks, I'll be happy. Yeah. And they get to five and they go, actually, I'd like to take that back. The number is actually eight now.

Exactly. What is a healthy version of discomfort when it comes to money? People get captured by numbers, but they lose sight of the overall goal. of the number. The scoreboard's easier. I can understand the numbers. You got to ask, why are we keeping score in the first place? What was the point of keeping score? So I could do X, Y, Z. And then I also think, like, if you have the financial means, help other people. Dedicate whether it's like volunteering, find something to do that gets you out of yourself, because I also think that that takes away from the need to feel like you need to buy things and do it, go on these crazy vacations

and whatever. Like, people find a lot of fulfillment through helping others. So it's like, how can, all right, great, you're comfortable. Now, like, get out in the world and help people. It's probably going to not be super comfortable. You're going to have to, like, meet new people. You're going to have awkward conversations, all these things. But, like, people find a lot of rewards from that. And I think that's, I think that's a good way to do it. Yeah. It seems like funding your own lifestyle. It's sort of just, it gets old eventually. Yeah. Versus finding a higher purpose, whether it's generational wealth, a business, giving to other people who,

need it, organizations you're passionate about, that is seen where there's some lasting joy versus, all right, I got $5 million, I guess $6 million is the next goal. All right, let's go for that. Let's see what that does. Yeah, and that plays out in research, too. I mean, I'm not just making the stuff up when you look at, you know, where people tend to find the most fulfillment, even after making money, it tends to be people who go, okay, I'm going to go help others rather than focusing entirely on yourself. Now, I am not saying go be Mother Teresa.

if you got enough money, buy that, make that stupid purchase. Like you work for it every now. Yeah, get the mocha master. Or have your wife do it for you because you're... Then you feel less guilty. Then you feel less guilty. That's the hack right there. But balance that with like getting out to the real world.

Expose yourself to different people and ideas. Help them. Like just live an interesting life. It's not focusing on, you know, the things and the house and the numbers. It's like, how can I focus on? different experiences that and the best ones will be things that are push you out of your comfort zone. Yeah. Well, you know, we talk about on this channel how you want to turn money from an obstacle into a tool. So there's that like first step, which is I'm in a bad place financially and paycheck to

paycheck. Money is the obstacle. But eventually you get out of debt, you get an emergency fund, you start investing. You're like, okay, now money's a tool to fund my life. But most people don't sit around long enough to figure out what kind of life they actually want. They just just go, well, how much stuff can I get? Right. And I think that's where you hit this wall where you go, well, that wasn't as fun as I thought it would be. I got a question for you. Do you think people who have been in debt and then get out of it, there's still sort of a mindset like the sky is falling, even when the sky is like, it's nice and steady overhead?

Do you feel that way? Yeah, we get that call on the Ramsey show. And they go, hey, can I buy the car? I mean, okay, it's a $40,000 car. Do you have the cash? Yeah, I have the cash. your net worth? Six million dollars. They got a paid for a house, millions of dollars, and they can't get themselves to spend. Obviously, a car is a big purchase, but it's the little stuff. It's the wife

calling and saying, hey, he doesn't think we should take the vacation because he thinks it's outrageous to spend $2,000 on a vacation. So there's a level of also letting go, and that's where I think there's this everything in moderation balanced approach where you're not going, hey, money is you shouldn't spend money, money, that's bad. It's just don't spend money you don't have at the the wrong time. And so that there's this approach I'm trying to get out with this comfort crisis scarcity brain thing. It's such a delicate balance to get there. But I think the healthiest people understand this concept, that money is a tool. It should help other people. I can enjoy it without guilt. Yeah. And I'm not going to run out tomorrow. Like I've set up my life in such a way

where I sort of have this insurance plan. I have the emergency fund. I have the right insurance in place. I'm investing for the future. The sky can't fall. And even even if it did, I'm going to be okay. I think about the end of a don't look up where they're all sitting around having dinner as the asteroids about to destroy the earth. And I'm like, I kind of want that attitude. While Deloney's in the bunker hunkering down, hoping to live in a post-apocalyptic universe, I kind of want to have this nonchalant attitude of like, had a good run, did what I wanted

to do, made the impact I wanted to make. That's the best attitude. And I'll tell you what, it's the best time ever to have that attitude because literally the world has never been safe. There's never been more safety nets. In the past, if you ran out of money, good luck. You die. And it's not fun.

Now you can be on your fifth bankruptcy and still survive in society. Exactly. Don't do that. Yeah. But not recommending that. Like things are, you know, things are a lot. Things aren't as bad as you think they might be. Yeah.

And I think you're right that it is a very complex question. You know, especially like the getting out of the debt baby steps. Here's your plan. you made enough and now we're having to like figure out what's the psychology behind this and how exactly should you spend that's going to fulfill you like that's a tough question yeah i can help you create margin but to then go what is enough that's a question only you can answer yeah totally but that's a that's the good fight man that's like understanding yourself yeah that's a good first-war

problem to have yeah big thanks to michael easter for joining us today in studio if you like what he had to say be sure to check out his books the comfort crisis scarce brain, his substack newsletter, and of course his show. We'll drop a link to his website in the description below. And if you thought this conversation was uncomfortable, you're going to love this next episode with Professor Arthur Brooks, where we talk about the doom loop that's keeping us broke. Click here to watch it next or use the link in the description. Thank you guys for watching. We'll see you guys next time.