George Kamel - Communication Expert: The Exact Words That Stop Money Fights

Episode Date: June 17, 2026

📙 Check out my book, Breaking Free From Broke!   Today, trial attorney and communication expert Jefferson Fisher is joining me in studio to give a crash course on difficult money conversations. He’s breaking down everything from the exact words that stop money fights to the best way to say no.   Next Steps: • 🎥 Watch my video Why You Feel Anxious About Money (With Dr. John Delony). • 💵 Start your free budget today. Download the EveryDollar app! • 📈 Are you on track with the Baby Steps? Get a free personalized plan.   Connect With Our Sponsors: • Get up to 20% off Cozy Earth with code GEORGE. • Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. • Go to Boost Mobile to switch today!  • Go to FAIRWINDS Credit Union for an exclusive account bundle!   Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🧠 The Dr. John Delony Show 📈 EntreLeadership   Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The most expensive conversations are the ones that you know are going to cost you, and they are damaging you and you don't stop. One is the timing of the conversation. So whenever you are trying to push that conversation happening right then, all you're doing is ensuring that it's going to go south, because you haven't thought about it, you're reacting emotionally. The worst thing you can do is push a conversation that is sensitive like money when somebody isn't ready and when you're not ready.

So if I were to put this in a nutshell for people, how do you say no to this kind of invite? Give them the no first. I can't make it. So you use that, I can't make it. Second is saying thank you. So add your gratitude. And at three, you just tack on a little bit of.

Most people are broke because they can't say two letters, N-O. And nobody knows that better than my esteemed guest today, Jefferson Fisher. He's a trial lawyer turned communication expert and New York Times bestselling author of the next conversation. And he's built a following of more than 10 million people

and it all started from the front seat of his car. Just a lawyer, a windshield, and better advice than most therapists charge $100 an hour for. But before we get to it, I'd like to thank my star witness, delete me for sponsoring this channel. No further questions, Your Honor, I object. That's contempt of court. Let's get to it. You are the expert when it comes to a healthy approach to arguments and persuasion with the heart to create better relationships, better outcomes. And we know that talking about finances can be awkward at best and a relationship destroyer at worst. Absolutely.

I mean, a money fight, which happens verbally, can destroy a marriage. It can lead to a divorce if you don't get a hang of this and communicate well. No doubt. It has a very, very high cost. Some of the hardest conversations are money conversations. So the most expensive conversations are the ones that end poorly? The most expensive conversations are the ones that you know we're going to cost you, and they are damaging you and you don't stop.

Usually it's like racking up a bill at a dinner and not looking at the menu. Like at the end of it, the bill comes due. And sometimes... You gotta face it. Yeah, it's... It's how to deal with conflict, really. Exactly. It outpaces the stability of the marriage.

Well, most of the calls that I take on the Ramsey show are somewhat about money. But right underneath the surface, it's all about communication, relationships, an argument, a conflict. And so I thought it'd be fun to roleplay these conversations with you today. Number one, for entertainment. Number two, I thought it could be helpful for my audience. three, I've always wanted to be an actor. I think we can knock out all three. Three great reasons. There we go. If I get cast from this, you know something great happened. You need to give me a credit. Okay. So first scenario is getting your spouse on board. So when we talk to people on the

Ramsey show, they go, hey, I want to get out of debt. Trust me. I want nothing more. My spouse doesn't give a rip. How do I get them on board? So I'm going to be the spender. You're the saver. You ready? I am ready. Maybe I just, another Amazon box showed up as you walked in. Okay. Hey, would you mind bringing that package in your way in, hon? Is this another one of these? When are you going to stop all the Amazon? Okay, you know what?

This is for the family. Everything I do is for this family. You know what that is? That's baby food. You don't know the mental load I have. First off, have these moments where you see the other Amazon package come in and probably already things are going on chaotic in the house because if it's baby food, you've got kids

and they're probably not taking a nap and it's probably going crazy. You're thinking about the debt payments that are about to debit out of the account and cause us to overdraft. That's exactly what I'm just in survival mode trying to go la la la la la. Right, exactly.

In denial. So kids are down. We're a little more calm now. Yeah. You sit down on the couch. How do you approach this in a way that doesn't cause me to shut down or get defensive?

is to make it a team mentality thing to say what you care about is what I care about. And here, I agree we need the baby food. Yes, absolutely. I want to take care of this family just like you do. And I know that's our goal. You're saying things that are going to bring this rather than me versus you

and we're negotiating over the Amazon or the baby food or whatever's been purchased. If it's the kids need flip-flops for the pool or whatever it is. There has to be this collectiveness between the two of you of, I know that the health of our kids is important to me and you both.

You're finding things that both of you can agree on. Common ground. Exactly. And so once you kind of get that nod from them of, yeah, this is how we want to handle this, or this is a goal that we can both agree on, then this is where you present the problem. of we cannot continue to purchase this brand at this price for this amount of times.

So maybe we, I agree, this is going to taste better for them. What if we do and try to come up with some other solutions? So just the phrase, help me, is extremely helpful when you say, I need your help. Some humility there. Well, there's a matter of, I'm not trying to condemn you. I'm not trying to prosecute you. I'm saying, hey, I need your help coming up with a solution here. So, like, there has to be give and take.

You're not trying to say you can't spend any money on the essentials of our family. I'm also, no, you're not trying to say you're wanting to drive us into debt and not have a penny to spend. And so there has to be a conversation of what's the balance there. Yeah. So that they're not the blocker. in the way, it's we just don't have a clear vision and goal that we're looking in the same direction at. Instead, we're just looking at each other. Yes, and I think it's also extremely

helpful. So we talked about one, the timing of the conversation. Next, we talk about when you can say, hey, I need your help. We're both aligned on this particular goal and you're not getting them defensive. The three, I'd say, you're trying to come up with a solution. And so often you can really get a solution by asking them, when you think they need X amount of baby food, or or you see its own sale, or you see whatever. Like, I want to know what's your thought process. So when you can get somebody else to narrate their thinking, it's extremely beneficial,

rather than you just casting and projecting why they did something. So rather than going, well, you spent it because you just saw it was there and that's the first thing that you bought. Yeah, you thought it was this and you thought it was that. And rarely do they agree with it? You know, if I would say, well, yeah, you bought it because you thought it looked good. you're naturally going to go, no, it wasn't that. It was because we knew this.

It's a good product. Exactly. Yeah, you got it, George. So it's, rather than assuming the worst, you say, I need you to kind of talk out your thought process there. So what is your brain, when you see this, what your thoughts telling you. And what you're going to learn is a lot of the times those fears are also shared in some sense. They're going to overlap. They just respond in different ways to the stress and the fear.

Right. And so, but what you're able to do is talk in terms of what your brain tells you. And when you do that, nobody tends to get defensive. So if you, if I were to say, George, I need your help. I want to understand your thought process. When you see that the kids need X, Y, and Z. Like, what's the first thing that comes to your mind and what you process? And they're going to start talking you out.

And I'm going to go, okay, I hear that. You see, I'm saying, I'm not saying you're right or wrong. go, I hear that. What my brain tells me, what my instinct is to think about the fear of how is this going to affect that? Because if we're spending money on the baby food, we're not going to have money for the X, Y, and Z. And so there's always the scale. And then you can come up with a solution together. Exactly. Versus you yelling it. That's good. Yeah, that's also key. Okay. Not to yell it. Next scenario, saying no. Now, as a people pleaser, recovering people pleaser myself, this is really hard for me. So you're going to help me out here. I'm your friend.

I love this scenario where you're my friend. This is great. It's my birthday. I just invited you. We're going to a nice dinner downtown with some guys, the kind of place where you might want to see the menu before you decide if you can afford to eat there. You're on a tight budget. Maybe you're trying to pay off some debt. And you need to say no to this invite. So I'm going to go, Jefferson, dude, I'm having my birthday. Thursday night, Bob Steakhouse, downtown Nashville, would be the world to me, if you would come. And we already know Bob's is like the most expensive. It's a nice steakhouse.

It does. Bob's does sound like a really nice steakhouse. It's inside of the Omni if that tells you anything. Oh, okay, that's even... Ritzie. That's how you already... Well, that's kind of crossing brands. But yeah, I do think that's...

So, here's what the bad way to go about it. All right? Here's how I would not recommend. Oh, man. Jeez, George, that sounds awesome. I'd love to. Really, I would. but you know I just I just got so much stuff going on you know I have I have some plants that I need to

to water and I got you know my cat my cat has this thing with her paw and she's she's really nervous about it you know I just really can't I just really can't leave and I continue to give you explanation on explanation sounds like excuses exactly to where George would say hey you know what why don't you just go ahead and just tell me no you know next time you can just say you can just say say no, right? And now I've offended you by giving you all these excuses, right? So that's the bad version. The second version, the better version of how to handle that. I just got the invite from George, and I would say, man, I'd love to. Something I need to make sure that I do is I made a promise to myself that I'm going to be watching my budget. I can't make it. I know it's going to be an awesome time and I really appreciate you inviting me. So if I were to put this in a nutshell for people,

of how do you say no to this kind of invite? Whether it could be a bachelorette party. It could be anything that causes you to go, this is going to cost me some money that I don't have right now, even though I'm sure it would be a great time. Let's take a step back. One is, you know internally it's because of money.

It also could be because you just really don't want to go. But if we're assuming that it's money, that doesn't mean you have to share that it's about money because that makes people, some people don't want to share that, that you're trying to save or you don't have as much money as somebody else, and then it becomes a comparison. So if you just need to say no, instead of the, I love to, but I can't. And that but word just takes, it deletes anything that comes before it, so that I love to, just ignore.

Yeah, exactly. If you wanted to, you would. Exactly. That's like, I love you, but you're kind of crazy. So when we have the version of, I love to come, but I can't, that's a no-go. I'd say that's a thumbs down. The better version is just kind of three-part of give them the no first. I can't make it.

So if you do that, I can't make it. Not on the cards for me. That's what I like. I like saying, not on the cards. Second is saying thank you. So add your gratitude. Thank you so much for inviting me. I appreciate you thinking of me.

It's gratitude for the invitation. And three, you just tack on a little bit of kindness. That's where it's, I'm sure it's going to be a great time. Let me know how it goes. I'm sure it's going to, you're going to knock it out of the park. You know, whatever that is. So you really don't have to mention money at all. It can be in the back of your mind.

if you know why, but I will say if you ever feel... Depending on the relationship. Yeah, and I do say if you feel like you do need to say why, if somebody goes, why, why not? One, you could just say, I can't make it, sorry, and not have any explanation. But if you feel like you need to with this individual, I like using, I've made a promise to myself, that blank. Then it's about you. Then it's about me. So let's say, you know, I'm saying no to that networking event.

That's it. that goes from, you know, six to eight. I made a promise to myself I'm going to be home to put the kids in bed. I've made a promise to myself I'm not going to be drinking alcohol this month. I've made a promise to myself I'm going to be taking care of X, Y, and Z.

Now you're man of commitment and integrity. How can I be mad at that? Yeah, that's the hope. I'm jealous. Exactly. And now you feel bad. No, I feel terrible. It's the same way of like,

yeah, I've made a promise to myself that I'm going to be watching my budget this week. I'm going to be sticking to my budget because the other person does not want to be responsible for you brick and your promise. They like it when people want to keep their promises. And then it especially helps if it's true and genuine. All right. Next one's a classic Ramsey show call. In this situation, I'm sending money to, you're sending money to me, your mother, every month. And I have not done a good job setting myself up financially. And I feel maybe a little bit

entitled that my son, who I've sacrificed for, should help support me in my old age. How do you respond to that. When I go, hey, son, I'm needing that 500 bucks again this month. First and foremost, of separating out the act from your mother. So the act of giving money instead of, Mom, I can't send you 500 bucks anymore. Instead, I'm going to make it more objective. So instead of, hear the difference. Rather than me saying, Mom, I can't give you $500 anymore. Switch that to saying, Mom, the $500. The, mom, the $500. $500 monthly allowance is not something that can continue. You say I've now made it objective in third person.

Because even if you could do it, because then it assumes, well, I can't do it? Well, now it's like, well, can you? You just don't want to? Right. Because I don't want to is even worse. And so framing it as, hey, this situation can't continue. Right. Instead of me sending you, I have an action here.

I'm now saying the monthly payment, the monthly allowance, whatever. that I've separated it out from what I'm doing. So let's put it there, especially when it comes to family members, there's this element of priority. I'm needing to make the decision of my family taking priority here. And I know you understand that. I'm already, I'm kind of, in some way you are projecting, but you know that if I were to start the conversation with mom, I know that you love my family and you want me to take care of my family more than anything in the world and that my family should be important to me more than anything and because that's where my priority is I cannot continue to keep the 500 monthly whatever so you could take it you could take it that

direction but saying what the priority is and knowing that they agree with it that's the common ground that's the common ground we found when we give people advice on this it's usually say, hey, set a timeline, almost like the conversation. Give them a heads up. Exactly. You can't just have it. Like, after, at this point, this will be cut off. And then we even add on, like, I still want to support you, but in a different way.

I want to make sure that you are set up to help take care of yourself, give you the resources you need, so that you don't have to be reliant on anyone else. You kind of feel that independence. Is there a way to frame that up? Yeah, well, I want to first say that I, this idea of I also want to help you kind of support yourself can be kind of like quicksand. Because some people I would prefer to play the victim than never do anything to climb up the ladder that you put in the hole. Like, you know what I mean? I wanted Bank of Jefferson.

I'm not looking for homework. Exactly. Yeah. Whoa, easy now. I don't, I'm not looking for me. I have to go actually. Because you can't be like, mom, you need to get a job. Yeah.

That's a harder conversation. Right. Well, I do agree with giving them a heads up of the next month's payment is going to be the last one. Some finality to it. There has to be some finality to it. And you have to almost, I know it's way easier said than done, but you have to be able to stand firm. And knowing that it is, it's going to be an emotional one. but if you know that you're making it for the right decisions for your family, then what's the overriding, what's the overriding goal there?

So that's where my mind goes of, yeah, there has to be some finality to it. There has to be a heads up to it. It's going to help when you align what your priorities are because most likely the priority, you can't have one multiple priorities. You can have one. I mean, there is a hierarchy of what comes first in your life. Because if you put your family above God or God above family or how your career is and where money takes it in your life, there has to be some ranking of priority.

And that doesn't make you wrong or hurtful. It means you're doing the best you can. While we're talking a lot of great advice today, here's a hard conversation we need to have. Your bank might be keeping you broke. So if you want to win financially, pick a bank that also wants you to win, like Fairwin's credit union, a sponsor of today's video. Because here's the deal. At most big banks, the average interest rate for a savings account is less than half a percent.

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and stays on top of it so you don't have to. You can even access a custom report showing their work. So go get 20% off through annual plans today at join deleteme.com slash George. All right, next one's asking for a raise. I am your boss. Okay. Love this scenario.

How do you approach me for this raise? Well, what I don't do is sit down for the very first time catching you cold and saying, Hey, I'm working. Yeah, you're working. What's up, Jefferson? Are you got five minutes?

I'm in the middle of something, but yeah, what do you need? Yeah. Okay, so listen, you remember the other day when I kind of, we were kind of talking about like business, like how much, you know, how the business works and stuff. So basically what I'm really looking for is if we can like talk about how much money I'm making, you know, or maybe not. We don't have to at this time, but I think maybe I could be making more possibly than I am now. You don't think I pay you enough? I mean, you might. You could, but I just know, like.

So very awkward energy. Super awkward energy. Coming through, I'm not giving you the headline. I'm now kind of. You're talking around it, beating around the bush. Yeah. And a little bit of, like, well, you're underpaying me. Yes, because me, like, dragging the words out is going to make you frustrated because you got things to do.

And the first thing you think of is, what's your point? What do you need? Don't waste my time. Yep, absolutely. And any time you start talking immediately out of the gate about, hey, I want to raise, the first thing any business owner or superior is going to know. Well, there's two things. One, is it within their authority to do so? are they the ultimate decision maker?

I might need to go to my leader to talk about it or a comp committee. Exactly. Or two, their mind's immediately going to go to, can I afford it? If I increase your salary by $1 to $2,000 or $10,000, whatever it is, what's the effect on the bottom line? How is that going to impact? And now if I'm paying you more than what I'm paying somebody else who's been here longer, and now there's, is there going to be some type of inner office issues or whatever else? Well, I find out my coworker is making more than me, and I've been here longer, and we have the same title.

Right. Now I'm frustrated and coming in emotionally. Yeah, and now you sound like you're complaining. Right. So what I would recommend, in every business is different, like we talked about, and I know what you do so well on all of your shows is to be able to equip people with this kind of information on how you're going to ask for. raised where my mind goes to is number one you take a learner mentality rather than coming in of hey so i just learned that george down the hall he's like this sounds crazy but he said he's making this and i've i've been here longer but like you know what's what's up at that instead of that you

come in to this um conversation with i need your help like when you were in my shoes what did you find the best way, the best levers to increase your salary if you knew you wanted to be here long term? How's the best way you found to structure your career here in the way you moved up? What's the best way that you've found to kind of ask for X, Y, and Z? And most likely, the superior now, you've taken off that pressure of that defensiveness, that scarcity mentality. Well, you're not asking for a raise now. You're asking how to grow. and now they're in a mentor advice position, which is a great position for a leader to be.

Exactly. Now, if you go, okay, Jefferson, that sounds cool, but I need something a little bit more aggressive, then I would say timing is a huge aspect of it. You can't do just the, you got five minutes. You need to set this up of an email or a conversation where you go, hey, next week I'd really like to set some time

where we can kind of look at my compensation structure and take about 30 minutes or so. and they should be able to agree with that. But now you're giving them a heads up, so it's not coming out of left field. And then you come with resources or you come with actual things you want to... An idea for a growth plan.

Yeah. Something like that. Yeah, because if you want to make sure that you are not bleeding out the business, right? You're in favor of the ship going in the right direction because you want it to survive too. At the same time, you're saying,

hey, I also want to feel like I'm intrinsically motivated and have the ability to do that. So then what I would encourage is when you have that conversation and you sit down, it's not a, hey, I need to know right now, am I getting a raise or I need to give a raise? They can't make that decision right now. You don't want an ultimatum. That's the worst. If you give an ultimatum, most likely to be ready to pack up your backs. Exactly. Sounds like we can't pay you enough. I hope the next job can. See you. See you. See you later. The ultimatum is, and worse is if you're somebody critical and you know you're critical, you're then twisting their arm, right?

Now you're being almost cruel in a way because you know you have leverage and they don't want to lose you. And their business can't really take that. And you know that, so you're kind of taking advantage of that moment. Well, it hurts your personal brand long term and your ability to grow there. Yeah, and now they're going to actually resent you. And that's the worst move you can make when you're trying to ask for a, a race. So instead, when you have that conversation, say something as simple as, I want to talk

about my current company structure, my current rate structure, and this is a conversation I like to have over the next three weeks of what are ways that we could look at or what goals need to be achieved so that I am, that we are working in tandem towards something of, okay, if I need to hit a certain salary, what do I need to do? This is what I want to make. What do I need to do differently? Yeah, what must be true. That's a more interesting conversation. Exactly.

So, but you hear how by saying, I want to add several weeks to this, I've now eliminated that pressure valve from the conversation. All right. Last one. Friends making bad financial decisions or family. We've all been there. You want to help someone avoid a big mistake that's going to hurt them. And I'm your close friend.

I just told you I'm pulling my entire 401K out, early withdrawal to invest to my brother-in-law's vending machine business. So version one, the bad version, is me coming and saying, look, dude, George, this is the worst mistake you could possibly make. You're going to tank your savings and ruin your life, potentially. If I say you can't do this, George, you can't do that. What's the first thing you think of? Well, now I'm defensive. Yeah. And you're going, well, you don't believe in me. Exactly. Well, you think I'm an idiot. Yeah. If I tell you you can't, the first thing you say is, Yes, I can't. Yeah. What you don't believe me in my intelligence and my incredible money skills.

What gives you the right? Exactly. Who do you think you are? Yeah, exactly. Do you see this? I just, you know, I read a book and it taught me everything. And this is vending machine one-on-one. Nobody read a book and then started a vending machine business. Yeah. It was 60 seconds on TikTok from a guru, like, bro, I'm counting all my change. I made 20 grand this month. Exactly. Hashtag, passive income. Yeah, hashtag get my course. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So the better way of doing that is I would use that same framing we said a minute ago. Look, George, I'm telling you this, because I love you, dude. I hear that excitement that you have about the venue machine. And you've been talking about it a lot. And, man, I hear all that, and I'm happy that you're happy. I also, because I love you, I have something that I want to tell you that I've learned. And are you good? with me sharing that first and foremost. Asking permission. Asking permission. Because they didn't ask for your advice, but you can ask for permission to give unsolicited advice.

And then they get to decide if they take it. Exactly. And it's okay to say, you know, can I share with you something that I've learned? Or, like, not even the word advice is sometimes very prickly to people. Well, that puts a hierarchy of I'm smarter than you. You got it. I have more wisdom than you have. Yes.

which in some cases you may or may not. So it's like, can I offer you some free advice? Nobody goes, yeah, please. They're like, now I'll pass on that because usually what you've learned has to cost you something. Advice that's free, sometimes not that great. There's a reason why it's free

because it didn't cost them anything. That's how people feel about the Ramsey show when they call me for advice. They're like, oh, is there anybody else? Is there? And Dave's the first to say, hey, the show is free so you get what you pay for. Yeah.

Yeah, well, that's fair. It's worth every cent. So I would say, first off is you're asking permission. Do you mind if I share something that I've learned? Or can I share with you something that's really on my heart about this? I honestly, as a friend, I'm not going to feel good. I'm not settled. Like, I'm not going to sleep well at night unless I tell you this.

Tell you this. Makes it about you. Exactly. Loving a friend. Right. And it could be as simple as, look, even if you're not, if you can totally disregard this, I need to say this for my own conscience.

And they're going to be like, okay, go ahead and share it. And that's where you get to share your heart in this. And you talk in terms of what my fear is. Instead of, look, you're going about this all wrong. They're lying to you. This is stupid. You're going to get screwed. You're going to ruin it.

You're going to fail. You're going to fail. Instead of all that, it's my fear for you is this. My care for you is this. What I want to see is your self. and because I care about your success and the benefit of your future, this is where my mind is, here's some icebergs that I really would want you to be aware of. So that's a much better approach rather than the, dude, what are you dimming?

That's so, this is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. The dumbest thing I've ever heard. You and your brother-in-law are dimwits. Exactly. That's where we differ. I might just go in for the dim-wit line. I think that's a good line. That could be.

Well, this was a lot of fun. I learned a lot. I feel like I'm going to approach conversations differently, even as I host the Ramsey show this afternoon with Dave. I'm going to be thinking about how to be more winsome, how to be more persuasive, how to not get someone too defensive or to shut down. And it's very nuanced, and it's hard to do. And I think it's a skill that takes a lifetime of mastery, and you've achieved it somehow at your young age. So thank you for that. I want everyone to check out your book and where they can find you.

Will you let us know? Yeah. Don't make it hard. It's jeffersonfisher.com. in my book was a New York Times bestseller, The Next Conversation, How to Argue Less and Talk More. And of course your YouTube channel, which already surpassed a million subscribers.

Congratulations. Thank you very much. You beat me to it somehow. Really? With your good looks and charm and great advice, I should try all of those. Well, with your acting skills, I know it's gonna be in no time, man.

I'm not meant for YouTube, I made for the big screen, baby. That's true, you are. That's true, really. Well, thanks, man. Appreciate you. Yeah, brother. All the best man. Huge thanks to Jefferson for joining us today.

Easily, one of my favorite conversations with a lawyer. To be fair, the bar was low. If today's episode hit home, you're gonna wanna watch this next one where Dr. John Deloney breaks down the real connection between money and anxiety. No prescription required, no copay. Just click here or use the link in the description.

Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time.