George Kamel - Everything You Know About Retirement Is Wrong

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

📈 Learn how to invest with our Investing guide!   Is a dream retirement possible anymore? Will Social Security even be a thing in 20 years? Today, my guest Erin Talks Money and I will answer (and debate) those questions with a friendly round of everyone’s favorite game: Agree to Disagree.   Next Steps: ·   🎥 Watch my video We Will Never Agree on THIS | Agree to Disagree With Caleb Hammer. ·       💵 Start your free budget today. Download the EveryDollar app! ·   📈 Are you on track with the Baby Steps? Get a free personalized plan.   Connect With Our Sponsors: ·   Get $5 credit when you join Privacy. ·       Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. ·       Go to Boost Mobile to switch today! ·       Go to FAIRWINDS Credit Union for an exclusive account bundle!   Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🧠 The Dr. John Delony Show 📈 EntreLeadership   Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is a dream retirement even possible anymore? Will Social Security even be a thing in 20 years? Will we ever get a sequel to You Don't Mess with the Zohan? You like to insult people? Those are the questions I'm going to answer slash debate today with Aaron Talks money, except for the Zohan one. We'll sidebar that. She's a retirement and financial planning expert and the host of a very popular YouTube channel,

and today she's joining me for a round of everyone's favorite game, Agree to Disagree. Stop agreeing with me! But before we get started, one thing we got, all agree on is our appreciation for Delete Me for sponsoring this channel. You're a real one, Delete Me. Erin, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

We're very excited to have you because there's some big news out there. America is apparently going through a lot. Just a bit. We're always going through a lot. There is a retirement crisis or so I've heard. Okay. And so I thought we'd talk about it today with a game of agree to disagree. Okay.

So here's that it works. I'm going to read a headline followed by a statement about said headline to give it some context because headlines aren't always the truth. Oh, it's the whole story. So if we agree with that headline statement, we'll give it a thumbs up with our little paddles over here. And if we disagree, we'll give it a thumbs down.

Okay. Are you excited? So excited. Headline number one, grab your paddles, please. Social Security Trust Fund is now projected to run out in 2032. Now, this headline feels a little bit misleaded because run out feels like there is no money. Yeah.

Everyone's getting $0,000 starting in 2032. But once the trust fund is used up, social security benefits will be lowered by a little over 20%. So that's the real statement. So do you believe that is true? Should people treat Social Security as a bonus not part of their retirement plan because of this trust fund being depleted? Agree or disagree? She's down the middle already. She is Switzerland.

So sorry. Age dependent. So yes, the trust fund. that's a factual statement, is projected to be depleted. Current workers are still going to pay into it. So the benefits would still pay out at a lesser rate. If Congress does nothing, I do think they will do something. And I also think age matters.

Because if somebody's on the brink of collecting, if they're late 50s, if they are, you know, maybe late 40s, early 50s. So by the time we get to that point, they're claiming, I don't think their benefits are going to be affected. I do think for our generation, for people in their 20s. Early 40s, yeah, I think plan as if things are going to change. They have changed in the past. They've changed full retirement age. They've changed benefit payouts. So I think we need to plan as if it's a bonus when we're younger.

As you get closer, you can plan as if it's going to be there. So I'm curious as to what Congress could do. Like if the trust fund is used up because essentially Social Security is the younger guy gives a dollar to the older guy. And then when I become the older guy, I look to the next younger guy to give me the dollar. Yes. That's essentially how the whole. thing works. So what is Congress going to do when the trust fund's used up? Are they going to make me

give $2 to the old guy? I mean, right now we have a wage cap that it's usually up to $187,000 or so that we pay into Social Security. That's not the exact figure, so don't quote me on it. But that gets indexed for inflation. We could raise the wage cap. We could adjust how benefits are paid out. There's something called the donor. So that more comes out of taxes to fund the trust fund. Yes. So they have multiple levers they could pull on. But as the system currently stands without change, it's scheduled for depletion. Perfect. We got there.

Let's see if I can get her to give me full paddle on this next one. Headline number two, the 4% rule is dead. The new bucket strategy millions are using to make savings last longer. Here's the subtext. You recently reacted to me and Caleb Hammer going at it. Going at it. Over withdrawal rates. Yes.

A very hypothetical scenario that affects very few. actual real people. Yes. So I'm now going to react to you reacting to me. What's behind this headline? Because people are saying the 4% rule could cause you to run out of money in retirement, which feels crazy. Mm-hmm.

You know, like, do you think, here's the agree or disagree. I'm like, I don't even know what I'm agreeing or disagreeing to. Here's the agree or disagree. A 4% withdrawal rate is too risky. Oh, no. No, it's not. Susie Ormond disagrees. I know she does.

Man, who am I to go against Susie Orman? I'm just saying she said the 4% rule is, quote, dangerous and should be lowered to 3% to lower the risk of running out of money in retirement. So can you, for our listening audience, explain the 4% rule? So 4% rule is when you retire, the age at which you retire, you look at your portfolio and whatever its value is, you can take 4% of that. And you're kind of setting your baseline at that point. And then every year going forward, you would adjust for inflation. So you're really only taking 4% that first year. And this was established by a gentleman named Bill Bengin, and he looked at all rolling 30-year periods in our market's history.

And if you followed that, it would have never run out of money. So it's backward-looking. If you use Monte Carlo simulations, which are forward-looking and looking at situations we've never encountered, that's where we run into rates that might be in that 3% range. So it's what kind of data do you want to look at? Are you backward-looking, forward-looking? Well, and it's, you know, affecting the principal amount that you started with. Yes. And so if you're okay depleting it, you know, down to 100,000 or 200,000 or 300,000 or 300,000, you could withdraw more in some situations.

And again, if you follow the Ramsey plan, you go into retirement with no debt, a large nest egg, and you have a paid off house. Yeah. So your expenses are pretty flexible. Yeah, and the 4% rule itself is inflexible. And it doesn't follow the real world. Like, no retiree goes into retirement. Like, I'm going to spend this amount every single rule. Yes.

My portfolio is going down. Everything's looking bad. I'm still going to take the same exact amount. I'm not going to adjust my spending. No one does that. Which is my argument with the, you know, the 7 or 8% or whatever. It's like, could you? Yeah, if you're willing to not do 8% in a down market for three years.

Yeah. And so if the market's up and you're willing to flex your spending and trim your expenses down or live off of your bonds or savings for a little bit. If you're willing to have a flexible withdrawal, absolutely there can be. years where you take that amount if the market's on your side. Can I tell you the truth, though? The worst case scenario. My goal is to have so much money in retirement that I don't even care what the percent is

because it's probably going to be like 1%. Yeah. That should be, that to me is a better goal. The average retiree takes one and a half to two and a half percent. Yeah. That's the average retirees. That's realistic. And they generally will end up with way more money.

I saw CFP Michael Kitsy's. He did a great article on this. And he basically said less than 10 percent of the time. you might run out of money. But there's a same exact chance that you'll have 4x, your principal amount. So if you started with 2 million, you could likely end up with 8 million when you die. Yes. So it's like, well, that wasn't the goal either.

No. To die with way more money. Yeah, I always phrase that as trying to die is the richest man in the graveyard. We don't want that. Oh, that's good. I like that. Because your kids will have no problem. I just hope I'm not buried near Dave because I will lose that game.

You know what I mean? Dave's got his own plot, don't work. He's not going to allow you next to him. He probably has his own like graveyard that I'm not invited to. He probably has a building. I would, if I was Dave, I would charge. If you want to be near me, you got to apply ahead of time. I was going to say like charge for views.

I would charge big money to be near Dave's plot. I'm just saying. Moving on, you need $2 million to retire and almost no one is close. BlackRock CEO warns a problem that Gen X will make harder and nastier. First of all, not a greatly, not the best worded headline. It doesn't roll off the tongue. Journalism has gone downhill. But here's the context.

Black Rock surveyed a thousand registered voters. Why voters? I don't know why they had to be voters. I don't know if they were investors. Maybe that's what it is. They asked how much they would need to retire comfortably. The average response was $2.1 million. So agree or disagree, people need $2 million to retire.

Do you think they need more or less? Depends on their lifestyle. Like, what if we get a military retiree? And we've got a pension and we've got two social security checks. They might need $100,000. I mean, and I'm not saying that everyone needs $100,000 going into retirement. But I'm just saying it depends. Someone might have a really high income floor that's coming from these reliable sources.

If you have a pension, annuity, and social security, someone might not have very much of those. And you're going to need a more robust portfolio, and especially if you want to travel and You've got big expenses, so it depends. Yeah. I mean, I think $2 million is a nice number. Yeah. For most situations and most lifestyles. That rolls off the team nicer.

Yeah. You're like, that's a great number. Most people would love to have that. Yeah. And the truth is many people retire with far less and still have a dignified retirement and a good life. Like 95% of people or so. And some people go, though, that's not enough for me in my life. I'm like, okay, then save more.

Work hard, save more. I love it. So do you think the less people have saved the more they think they need, or do you think as they actually build some wealth, the goalpost changes? I think it's probably a multi-fold here. I think, yes, when you have, say, $100,000 saved, you're like, oh, gosh, I'm going to have to fund 30 years. This $100,000 is not enough to cut it.

But I also think we look at it through the lens of I'm earning an income today. I get this paycheck. And that paycheck's one day going to go away. And we have no concept of what retirement is going to look like when we're 30, when we're 40. And so we kind of grasp at a big number because it feels good because I think a lot of us. You'd rather overshoot than undershoot. Yes, absolutely. I don't want to run out of money.

Inflation is going to be. Health care, your lifestyle, your own health. Yeah. All of that. Well, Larry Fink said this. 401Ks have failed as a mass retirement solution because they place the onus of financial planning on the individual rather than an employer or institution. So there's a bonus agree to disagree here. Do you agree with that that the onus of financial planning should be on the employer?

or institution? I mean... That feels crazy. The idea is that it used to be when we had pensions being more popular, but I do think our own financial independence is on our shoulders, and I don't think 401Ks have failed

in the sense that they've made more millionaires than any other account out there. Take that, Larry. Fink. Look, I never met a Fink, and I hope they got to never do. Sure, he's shaking in his boots. I'm like, they failed because no.

But the only way they have failed is that nobody's investing money into it. Largly when 401Ks are there, when people are opted in and they save, they go into retirement with investments. 401Ks have won. It's when we don't have access to an employer-sponsored plan that we see that that is the segment of the population that doesn't have retirement savings. Because they don't, they go, well, I don't have an option? We go, well, have you heard about an IRA? And usually they haven't. Or if you're self-employed, like a solo 401K, something like that.

So that is good. I'm glad we both disagree with Larry on that one. I just thought that was a crazy quote to put out there. All right, headline number four, the S&P 500's golden decade of double-digit returns is over, Goldman says. So Goldman Sachs, this is not a person, this is the entity that is Goldman Sachs, forecast that the S&P 500 would see annualized returns of 3%

over the next 10 years, down from the 13% annualized figure from the prior decade. That's quite the doom and gloom headline. So, agree or disagree, the S&P 500 won't have double-digit returns over the next decade. I'm not in the prediction game. I don't agree with 3%. See, here? Here's the funny thing.

I feel like they put these headlines out every year. Yes. And then the market's up 22%, 17%. You're like... They said this in the 90s when things were going crazy. And I mean, here we are 30 years later. But if you look at Vanguard, if you look at Fidelity, when they're making their projections, they're saying the same thing. And why is that?

Because it's better to say, hey, expect this, then we actually hit this. Everyone's happy with their fidelity in Vanguard accounts. If you're told you're going to get 10 percent and then you get eight, you're very angry. Well, I go, are they fearmongering to get people to invest more knowing the returns could be lower? That's another thought I had. Conspiracy theory. I think they're talking to their current investors. And I think they're setting the bar real low.

And I think like Vanguard does the same thing. So if I'm a business and I have shareholders, I go, hey guys. It's going to be a pretty rough year. We're only going to see 3% growth. And you guys all surpass that, and then you get bonuses on top of that. So now we hit 10% growth. And the shareholders are so happy. And they're throwing money at me in bonuses.

Gosh, I should work for Golden Sachs. I would crush it. Well, the other piece of this, do you think that we should be looking at past performance and historical data to project the future? I don't think history repeats itself, but I like that phrase of it does rhyme. History is kind of similar, but we get new events. Like, we're going to have inflationary periods. We're going to have times of war.

We're going to have times where the market does not do well, the times where it does do well. It's not going to look exactly like it did in the past. It's a rhyme. And that's not the same word, but it's a similar word that sounds so. Okay. So I think we can look at the past as a guide, and that guide will tell us that there will be rough times. There will be booms and busts and inflation and stagflation and all of these things. and we can expect them going forward.

Now, what order they'll happen in and the magnitude, I don't know. And when it will happen, I don't know. Yeah, well, you know, I always say when I use my investment calculator to show people what could be, I use 10% as a rough number. Now, I know it could be a little less. It could be more. I mean, we've seen 10 to 12, if you look at the past, I don't know, 70, 80 years. That's before inflation.

So adjusted for inflation, it's probably closer to 8 to 11, 7 to 10, somewhere in there. But I still think 10 is not a crazy number to throw out there. And regardless of inflation, two million is two million. What can it buy you? That's up to you and the Lord. But, you know, I still think it's not crazy. But then people go, this guy's insane. We're never going to see that again.

Or I'm not getting that in my account. So what do you say to those people? Save more. Save more. If you think you're only getting at 7%, looks like you got to save more. Yeah. They cut back on your expenses.

I mean, it's kind of like when you hear people say, oh, a million dollars isn't anything nowadays. I'm like, it's more than most people. I always ask, do you have a million dollars? Generally, the answer is no. Generally, how often has it been yes? Are you talking to Dave? I've never heard that from Dave. I think even Dave would say a million dollars is a lot of money. Yes. Yeah. And if you lost that, it would hurt no matter how much money you had. Maybe if you're Elon or something, you're like, that's chump change. But for the average human being, a million bucks would change their life. So to say it's not a lot.

Now, it's not a lot if you plan on spending $100,000 a month for the next 30 years. I don't think you're going to make it into year two. I wouldn't know how to do that, but I'd like to try. Good luck. Make it for a good video. Dave, give me the budget for that. I spent $100,000 a month for 12 months. Here's what happened.

And at the end is just I spent $1.2 million. That's what happened. You're in dead by $200 at this point. Dave's not going to be happy with that. Would you actually overspend if you were given $100,000? No. And you could go into debt to spend. even more.

No, I don't want debt. No, thank you. That's a frightening scenario. Okay, so far into the game, I feel like we've been fairly agreeable. But here's something I'm super disagreeable about, and that is getting spammed and scam. Not a fan, no thank you, ma'am. And that's why I'm a huge fan of removing my personal info using Delete Me, one of today's sponsors. Delete Me does all the hard work of hunting down your data and wiping it from data broker sites.

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And switching is super simple. Just bring your phone and unlock savings today. You can make the switch at boostmobile.com slash Ramsey. $25 forever requires customers to remain active on Boost Unlimited Plan. Headline number five, a Nomura study says 65% of institutional investors see crypto is a vital portfolio diversifier. So here's the agree or disagree. Crypto should be a part of your investing portfolio. Agree or disagree. Whoa. I didn't know you were anti-crypto. I don't have any. Can I tell you? I officially have something because I was forced against my will. I was,

this was with Graham Steffen, right? Yeah. He said if I buy you one. If I buy you a share of Ibit, will you will then technically own crypto. I said, great. If you want to, so he literally Venmoed me $44 to buy a share of Ibit. So I can no longer say I don't own any crypto. Okay. Apparently I do. I mean, it's changed your life, I'm sure. Oh, my gosh.

Every day I look at it and go, look at that. Still there. Still meaningless. So yeah, I don't think crypto is a, it should be part. Now, if you want it to be a part, sure. I always say, hey, use some fun money. Don't let it be a huge part of your net worth or your portfolio. But if you want to, you know, do a little betting on the side after you've already been building some wealth, you're investing in two

retirement accounts and tax-advantaged accounts, then go for it. It's the same way with individual sucks. You can set aside a small portion of your portfolio if you want to, that's fine. Yes. I have just found that there are very few people who can do both really well where they go, oh yeah, no, I'm maxing out my 401K and I enjoy a little crypto and single stocks over here. They're generally different mindset. Because I have a day job that I put my time into.

Then I've got family that I put my time into. I kind of want my investments to run themselves. I don't want to have to take from either of those buckets, time or work. You don't want to track it 24-7 and write down a code on a tiny piece of paper that you have to keep in a safe? I am going to lose that piece of paper. Thank you for that. Well, here's the truth. 79% of those people plan to invest in the next three years, but they're only allocating about 2 to 5%.

Interesting. And 14% of U.S. adults own some form of cryptocurrency. I thought it was like 1 in 10, so it's growing slowly. Maybe their friend Venmoed them. Gaining some market chair. Maybe the Graham Steffens of the world forced you into it. But it does feel a little bit MLM-y. You know what I mean?

Like the people who are into it are really into it. Well, they get real loud when it's doing really well. And then when it's not doing so hot, we don't seem to hear anything. Yeah, they talk about the weather or sports. Yeah. Anything else. It's easier for me. I just never talk about it.

Yeah. Except for this. I guess I am talking about it technically. All right, headline number six. 51% of U.S. consumers expect AI to replace financial advisors. So agree or disagree, AI can give you better advice than a financial advisor. And I'm slightly tilted on this one. I have thought.

Because I don't think it's a bad idea to use AI to better your financial situation, but I would never use it as gospel truth, do whatever the AI said. Because the AI gets math wrong. Yeah. So your projections for your retirement could be, wildly off versus a human sitting down looking at real numbers using, you know, more robust software to run these numbers. I think it's a great tool.

But I would say once someone's accumulated wealth, once you get to the point where you're thinking about retiring or maybe you're within 10 years of that, a lot of the problems are behavioral. Learning how to spend when you've been so accustomed to saving, AI can't tell you that in a great way. Well, it can only deal with the inputs and information you've given it. Yes. And therefore, it doesn't know what questions to ask.

Because you could say, hey, what if I end up in long-term care? And it's going to say, great point. A lot of people do end up in long-term care. And it's going to cost X amount. Great question, Aaron. Yes. Can I help you with anything else today? Gosh, it's like an Apple store.

It's just too many employees. Not enough people. That's interesting. Here's the stats on this. 26% of U.S. consumers have sought financial advice from an AI-powered app or chat bot in the past year, which is actually pretty impressive that 26% of anybody in the U.S. is interested in seeking financial advice. I think it's a tool.

So I think that that's great. Yeah. More people are trying to better their finances because of AI. So I see that as an absolute win. 20% say they have made a significant financial decision primarily based on AI tools recommendations. I hope it worked out for those 20%. Depends. How big of a significant financial decision is scary.

Is this like hundreds of thousands of dollars? Like, should I buy this house with zero down? That's, it's like a magic eight ball for us now. We're just like, should I? Tell me, chat GPT. Only 31% say they would feel comfortable sharing their full financial data with an AI system for personalized advice. Oh, oh, I've shared it all. I've shared it all.

It knows you into my league. It knows everything. It knows everything about every inch of my life. So we have security issues. What are they going to do? Sell my data like every other company already has? That's fine. What are you going to market? to me with products that I might like?

GPT is running ads on their low model now. That's what I don't know. Well, and I've seen they're using like affiliate links. And so it would not shock me if in the future it's just, it's telling me what I need. Moving on, headline number seven. Okay, this is a headline that's phrased as a question. So get ready. When is the moment you're so rich that investment contributions don't matter?

How to figure out your crossover point. So. Is this my headline? I have a video with this title. Well, I know you have a video on it. I don't know if they stole all of your... Yeah, did they? Probably.

Okay. Knowing that most websites are just using YouTube videos to create content. I'm like, I have a video that's very close to that title. It's good. Check it out. Well, that's where we came up with this. And then we saw there was an article on it. Okay.

We needed a headline. Yeah. Not a YouTube title. So you can tell me more, but the crossover point for wealth creation occurs when your portfolio growth rate exceeds your annual contributions. Is that right? Is that a good definition? Yeah, that's a great one. So give us a real scenario. Like my portfolio growth rate, let's say I have a million dollars.

The market did 10%. So it grew by $100,000, which was more than I contributed to the account that year. Is that the crossover point? Yeah. So here's the agree or disagree. You can stop investing after you reach the crossover point. Agree or disagree. We're so aligned. This kind of goes with like the Coast Fire mentality. Like the crossover point isn't. Explain Coast Fire. Because so fire, financial, independent, retire early. But then Coast Fire.

Coast Fire is more aligned with traditional retirement, but the traditional retirement age, but it would have you aggressively saving and investing when you're in your 20s and 30s and amassing maybe $200,000, $300,000 at a young age. And then theoretically, you would not have to continue contributing to your investments. And if you left it invested until the age you wanted to retire, let's save. 65, it would get to the number you wanted. Without me contributing more? Yes.

So it's like I'm pushing the snowball, getting more snow. But you're assuming the market's going to do. I let it just go downhill. And I'm like, hopefully it'll just get big enough on its own. Yes. That's my fifth grade analogy for that. That's great. Well, here's my take on this.

I don't think you should ever stop investing until you actually are officially retired and your portfolio has proven itself that you have enough income coming in to not have to put any more than to the bucket. Yeah. I think there are times where we're going to be able to save more and times in life where we may be able to force to save less because maybe kids are expensive, something's happening. But I think if you can save, you should. And I think there are times if you can save aggressively and put yourself ahead.

That's great. Take advantage of those. I also don't think the person who's saving 20, 30, 40 percent of their income is suddenly going to go be like, hit the milestone. I'm out. I'm not saving anything anymore. They're just too ambitious to fully stop. Okay, headline number eight.

Elon Musk says you don't need to worry about saving for retirement. This is a wild one. So Musk says that goods and services people need will be almost free because of AI. He's not saying that we're going to just make money out of nowhere from AI, but he's saying that AI will make everything that we would consume free. I don't understand that logic because I know how capitalism works. Yeah. But agree or disagree, AI will make investing irrelevant.

Sorry, Elon. We disagree, and I know that means something to you. It's difficult. My mom calls him Eli Musk. Eli, because he lies so much? No, she just does not know anything. She just thinks his name is Eli. Okay, I was like, oh, good mom burn.

She's 75, and we go with it. So you haven't, do you correct her? No, because it's hilarious. Well, to be fair, a 75-year-old doesn't know anybody named Elon. Yes, I know. Wow, well, that's all my headlines. But I did want to talk about your philosophy when it comes to investing in money. The Ramsey philosophy is pretty simple.

Live on less than you make. Create enough margin to invest the difference. Stay out of debt. Invest 15% until your house is paid off into tax advantage of retirement accounts. Once the house is paid off, you can max it all out and have a great life and live and give like no one else. Spend more. Upgrade your life. Have incredible experiences.

And you should be fine. Love it. So what tweaks do you have for that as you talk to your audience? What are you seeing in the reality of people who are attempting to retire? Because you're talking to people who are on the cusp or they're in retirement going, I don't want to run out of money. So what are the sort of pitfalls as we're looking out going, hey, invest 15%, you'll be fine. You can't screw it up if you avoid single stocks in crypto and don't stay too conservative in bonds.

So there's sort of the spectrum from super risky to not nearly risky enough. Well, I'm going to say I read Total Money Makeover from Dave Ramsey when I was 16 when it first came out. So I'm like an OG follower. I never had the chance to get any debt because of Dave. So that's amazing. I would say when people get to retirement, usually it's the mindset shift. I think the vast majority of people who have saved, the vast majority of people who've gotten to the point that they're either carrying a very low mortgage. I like the idea of going into retirement completely debt-free.

I love that stance. Some people are going to make the argument, my mortgage is sitting at 2%. It's got five years left or it's got three years left. I'm like, I get it. It's going towards principal. You can carry it. That's fine. That's on you.

But the people who've gone in and paid off the vast majority of the debt and they have savings, they're going to be fine. The idea is it's shifting from being a saver to a spender. And I think that's the biggest thing I hear about. on my channel because a lot of people have done the hard work. If they're watching your channel, they're probably doing okay. That's kind of the paradoxical funny part. Yeah, the people we want most to watch it.

Not investing are like, oh, I'm very curious about what Aaron thinks about my retirement. Like, how do I do this rock conversion? Yeah. Yeah. So I find that to be true on the Ramsey show. We get a lot of calls. People go, hey, I'm baby step seven, paid off house. Yeah.

We got $2 million. My husband doesn't think we should go on a $20,000 vacation. And it is harder upgrade the car. We've been driving the same car for 20 years. It's time for an upgrade. Can we do it? And it's like they're asking us for permission because no one taught them how to unlock that sort of intensity

and just go, hey, you can chill now. You can put it on cruise control and enjoy your life. Look around the – look at the scenery. Yeah. Instead of just white knuckling on the steering wheel. So how do you think people can sort of downshift and enjoy their money more once they've accumulated? I think it goes back to having an income floor and having an emergency fund. Because I think you can

look at having $2 million invested, $3 million, even $500,000, and you're just like, that is a big pot of money. I'm not going to touch it. That's, I don't want to touch that. That's my security. That's everything I've built up. And we're always taught, don't touch the principle. So we look at that as untouchable. And so when people step away from the workforce, they're like, oh, I'm not supposed to touch that. What do I live on? So I think if you can- We're trained to trade it like a hot stove. And so now you're like, well, I don't want to touch it. Let it grow. Let it grow. Let it grow. And especially if we retire and the market is volatile. The market's down 20%. You're like, oh, I don't want to sell now because now it's down. So if you have these cash buckets you can turn to,

whether that's a year, maybe two years, whatever your risk tolerance tells you, you know your next year or two of expenses is covered. If you time when you're claiming Social Security, if you have a pension, all of these things give you permission to spend because they feel like they're spendable money. This money's sitting in cash. This money. that's coming in every single month. That's money you have permission to spend because it still feels like a paycheck. That makes sense. So you build that up. Do you have a recommended amount of sort of reserves in retirement of amount to have in, you know, a high-yield savings account or bonds? We're like, hey, if you have a year or two of your expenses socked away, you can sort

of stomach a market downturn. Yeah, I think it depends on the individual. And I know it depends is like a terrible answer. But it's a classic answer in the financial planning world. because, I mean, there's a lot of truth to it. Yeah. So, I mean, if somebody has a higher risk tolerance, maybe a year or two, if somebody is more conservative and they're really fearful of how the market might perform, maybe they go all the way up to three to five years. And that's okay.

If that allows you to sleep at night and you don't want to worry about what the market's doing, yes, it might create a little drag on your portfolio. It might not be the most mathematically optimal. Not the most optimal. Yeah. But, I mean, if it's stress optimal, then that's the good choice. If you sleep at night, it's worth not being optimal. You don't have to be perfect.

That's beautiful. Well, I think the key here, and again, it's funny because if you're watching this episode, you're probably doing okay. Yes. The fact that you're paying attention to your money, you want to invest, you want to build wealth, you want to retire with dignity, tells me that you will. Yeah. And what I found is I can't make people want something more than I want it for them on the Ramsey show. We get these calls. And I'm like, hey, it's fine. If you don't want to get out of debt, I can't make you. I can't make your parents invest in retirement. You can't change people. So you need to want it and you need to do something about it. And so the running joke around here is go find yourself because no one's going to do it for you. No one's coming to save you.

If you do the basic things, live on less than you make, invest the difference, you're going to be fine for the vast majority of people. So encouraging. You are, you're like the female Mr. Rogers. Love it. Compared to Caleb Hammer. Compared to Caleb. Which makes me, I don't know, blippy. I don't know where that puts me on the spectrum.

Listen, I've heard about blippy. He's not allowed in our household. Yeah, I've tried. I don't know how my daughter found out about him, but it's too late now. It's flippie and popsicles in my house. This is why he's not allowed in. I just put my headphones on and try to avoid it. Well, Aaron, thank you for being here.

I want to make sure everyone goes and checks out your amazing content you're putting out regularly on Aaron Talks money to help people retire dignity and not screw this whole wealth building thing up. Live below your means. You can't screw it up. Thank you. Now I've got a question for you. Agree or disagree. We had fun today. I agree.

Big thanks to Aaron for joining me. Go check out her channel. Aaron Talks Money. We'll drop a link in the description below. And if you want to see and agree to disagree that was far more combative, watch this one coming up next where I was joined by Caleb Hammer, America's Angry as Caleb. Click here to watch it or use the link in the description. Thanks for watching.

We'll see you next time.