George Kamel - Why You Feel Anxious About Money (with Dr. John Delony)

Episode Date: October 13, 2023

In this episode, I’m joined by relationship and mental health expert, Dr. John Delony, to talk about the connection between anxiety and personal finance. (Trust me, he’s not a normal doctor.)  Links:  Check out John’s new book, Building a Non-Anxious Life  Learn more about John at: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/john-delony    EveryDollar Budget Deal: I love a good deal, when you sign up using this link, I’ll hook you up with a 14-day free trial and $15 off your first year of the premium version of EveryDollar.     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, guys, George Camel here. And today, I'm talking to my fellow Ramsey personality, bestselling author, host of the Dr. John Deloney show, Dr. John Deloney. Now, if you don't know who John is, John spent over two decades working in crisis response and higher ed, earning two PhDs along the way before giving it all up to join me on the crew here at Ramsey. And just like I focus on personal finances, John focuses on mental health, relationships, wellness, and anxiety. And we all have that, right? We all may not have a lot of money, but we all have a lot of anxiety. I invited John to come hang out on this channel and teach me more about money and anxiety. And he agreed. Welcome, John.

What's up, man? This is fun. Is it? Yeah, look at this set. It just feels pretty cool. Before we get into it, John, will you do the honors that you were in no way contractually obligated to do? Hey, rock stars.

Smash that like button like a guitar solo and slam, subscribe like it's the main riff. I'll take that back, John. Thank you for that rousing, rousing ask. You're all welcome. What's it like to have so many YouTube subscribers and yet no security? Yeah, it's pretty strange. My mom wrote a code that allows her to hit one button and it subscribes to my channel. Over and over and over.

With a different address, over and over. It's amazing. So about 88 to 90% of my subscribers are from my mom. Are just your mom. But she loves me. When no one else will. We'll be talking about your mom here shortly. She's not in the bowl.

She's not inside of the bowl. Everybody likes to hear, we'll be talking about your mom. mom shortly. Good, George. I can't wait for that segment. This is going so well. It sure is, Billy. It sure is. Okay, for starters, John, you have once redefined anxiety in a book, but can you define anxiety? Yes. What is it? What do you tell people it is? Anxiety, just full stop, is an alarm system inside your body, letting you know that it's detected in your environment that you're probably not safe. that something isn't right and need to check it out. And you've seen over time more and more people struggle with anxiety

or at least say, hey, this is a real problem in my life. Yeah, it's a weird glitch in the Matrix. It's a weird moment in history where we have these little magic wands, these little cell phones that you can push a button and food just shows up on your back porch or on your front porch. We turn these little knobs and water comes out. We've solved these problems that have been plaguing humans for all of human history, yet we're more anxious and more

fried and more burned out and more chronically stressed than ever. And a lot of this ties to money problems. We know that. And we're going to get into that shortly. Oh my gosh. Hold on, John. One second. Is that what I think it is? Oh my gosh. That is producer Alex signifying the start of our long-running segment word watching. Here's how it works. I've got a bowl here with a bunch of words and phrases. And we thought of you when coming up with these phrases. Let's just put it that way. So as we continue the interview, you have to work in the word. that you've chosen into your answer very naturally, very subtly. I like it.

First question. Research shows that 40 million, that's almost 20%, John, of Americans, have a diagnosed anxiety disorder. How did we get here? That feels like a lot of millions. It's 40 of them. I actually think that it's way underrepresented. If you were to just have like a hot dog in a bun and a hot dog

and then just this German smear to just put on it. Why is it German? I don't know. Is that like a relish? I don't know what a German smear is. What's the German smear? A style of appearance of uneven mortar joints, reminiscent of old cottage homes. That was not on my bingo card.

It's not going to work well on my hot dog analogy. Let's throw that one out. Throw that one out. We'll start over. Research shows that 20% of Americans, that's 40 million, have a diagnosed anxiety disorder. How did we get here? Well, number one, I think that statistic is wrong.

I think way more people are struggling with anxiety when it comes to diagnostics. That whole thing is a mess too. The whole diagnostic conversation has become unreasonably sticky. It's just, it's become an identity. That's who you are. That's what you do. That's what you're about. I think that it's important to kind of put that off to the side for a second and just answer

the broader question. In a world, in a time when we have everything, why are we all so anxious? We could talk about social media. We could talk about debt. We could talk about all that stuff. We could talk about nobody believes in anything anymore. But I think underneath all of that, that we've created a world that our bodies simply can't live in.

And we've called it normal. We have calendars out of control. We got bank accounts out of control. We have other people telling us what we're going to do with our lives. We have marriages that are falling apart. And then we go to the doctor and say, I'm so anxious, as though anxiety is the problem. And so I think we've created a world that our bodies can't live in. And I think on top of it, we've created the loneliest generation of human history.

And the combination of those two things, our bodies are trying to get our attention. Well, as I talk to people on the Ramsey show and help people through this channel, money problems are one of the causes for this anxiety problem, right? We have followed this path that everyone told us to do. We took on all of this dead, and now it feels like this exploding diaper, and we're just sitting in it, waiting for someone else to change it. At some point, we have to go like, oh, I'm a grown adult. Like, I can change my own diaper.

Is that a good analogy? Don't answer that. For a brand new parent who is awfully sleep deprived. Dad brain. Thank you for that. I've dealt with some exploding diapers in the last few weeks. TMI! And your kids, too, right?

That's not just mine. That's your child also. That's all of ours. Well, John, talk to me about when you started to understand how closely anxiety and personal finances were connected. So in the nerd world, we call it agency. When your body knows that you have been shoved into the backseat of your own life, when somebody else is telling you what you're going to do with your day in your life, it will sound the alarms.

It will say you're not safe. You're not driving. Somebody else is driving. And it got me thinking, man, if I owe money to a mortgage company and I owe money to a car dealership or a car finance company or I owe money to a bank or a credit card, they're telling me what I'm doing with my life, not me. Maybe this is the time I want to quit my job and start a website company or start a new thing. I don't get to do that.

Maybe my boss is super abusive and I don't get to quit. because I owe $40,000 in student loans. And so the government's telling me, no, no, no, no, you're going to work tomorrow. You got these kind of golden handcuffs. Like, I can't leave. I need this paycheck. Well, there's golden handcuffs for a few. Most people have steel handcuffs, right?

They're not making golden handcuff kind of money. But somebody else, another agency, another institution is telling them what they're going to do. And in my own life, when I was a kid, my dad was a public servant. He was a police officer, and then he became a minister. There were seasons we didn't have enough money for groceries. And so I learned at a really young young guy. money was an indicator of your worth. Like, you can be a public servant, but the public doesn't think much of those who serve, right?

Not enough for groceries, right? And so I grew up knowing money's the root of all the fights in my house. Money's the root of all of the reasons I feel less than my neighbor because they have cars and they have fruit roll-ups and they're, you know, we have generic cereal in the bag, right? All the, I've got hand-me-downs. I never have my own new clothes, right? I have all these signals from money. And then when I'm an adult, my body begins to sound the alarms when I start to feel less than again.

When I start to feel so now I'm going to go borrow. I'm going to have those designer things that I didn't have when I was a kid. I'm going to have that car we never had. And now the bank's telling me what to do with my life, right? And so money problems often stem from anxiety. I'm going to try to buy and click my way and purchase my way to peace, which never works. And also it causes anxiety too. So it's a circular mess.

Hey, we'll get right back to the episode. but I want to give a quick shout out to our friends at BetterHelp who are sponsoring this episode. Listen, sometimes we know what's good for us, but it feels like we just can't make ourselves do it. Like, I should just go to bed, but I'm a new dad, and my baby just got a diaper rash, and it looks really red.

And sometimes my brain convinces me to check WebMD, and then I click another article and another article, and suddenly it's three in the morning. If your brain tends to work like that, therapy could help. So your brain works with you, not against you. And sometimes it's just as simple as talking things through and learning strategies to be intentional about doing the things you know you should.

So if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. BetterHelp is flexible because it's 100% online, so it fits your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists at any time for no extra charge. Make your brain your friend with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash George today and get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P-com slash George, or click the link in the description. All right, back to the episode we go.

Well, how does owing people money, I've heard you talk about this, how does it affect our physiology? Because there's an interesting correlation that you've been talking about lately of how it physically affects us, too, not just mentally, not just emotionally. It's kind of like a wet willie. It's not at all, but we'll go with it. So here's what happens in your body. Let's think about it. Your frontal lobe, the part of your brain is designed for decision-making and predicting the future and thinking out is this a good deal, right? It signs up for a 30-year interest rate on your mortgage at 2.9% back in the old days, not anymore, but that's a good mathematical deal.

If you buy a car for 60 months, no interest, 72 months, no interest, that is great math. Free money for five, six years. Well done. And the part of your brain that's always scanning the environment, letting you know if you're safe or not, it knows. If George says one wrong thing at work and he gets fired, we lose our house. We lose our cars. We lose our food. It knows we're not safe and we've created this world where everything is about go. Is that a good deal? Is that a good deal? Can I make the payments? And we're letting the front part of our brain run everything and we're totally ignoring the part of our brain that's going, we're going too fast. We're not safe, right? And so when your brain

knows you're not safe, it dumps cortisol and adrenaline into your body. I'll say it this way. Your body would be failing you if it let you sleep all night when you owe a mortgage and car debt. and student loans and credit cards. Because your brain knows, we may not make it out of this one alive. It would be failing you if it let you sit with your wife in a moment of full presence, in an intimate, tender moment. It'll be failing you, because it's trying to not die, right?

Owing other people money, handing over in your agency to somebody else for something shiny, is a way to spin your brain up and not let you sleep. Man, that's good. Well, a lot of people, they take on all this debt. But what they don't realize is it's more like salt, into an open wound. And it's going to hurt.

Let's do one more here, John. You talk about in your new book, building an on-actress life, choosing reality. What does that mean when it comes to our money situation? I mean, similar to, like, how your mom had to choose reality. Like, oh, this is the son I have, right?

Why are we bringing May Camel into this? I'm just saying, your mom. Oh, there we go. That's why. Not a personal attack. It's literally he's just doing his job. I'm just contractually obligated. Smash the subscribe button.

I mean, she looked at you and she was like, but I wanted a football star and a mathematician, and I wanted a famous psychologist and a medical doctor. I'm probably going to get a melodramatic, mediocre songwriter and a YouTuber, right? She had to own reality. She had to choose reality. What was your question again? I don't have any reference point.

What does that mean when it comes to our money? Choosing reality. Yeah. Our brain has a remarkable way of staying tethered to reality even when we're not. So the great Bessel van der Kolk named his book, The Body Keeps the Slash. score and it's a book about trauma. These things that happen to you when you were a kid, your body puts a little GPS pin in that and it remembers it when you're older, right?

Until you go solve for that and deal with it. Similarly, you can be thinking all day, I got a great deal. I'll pay this off in the future. If I get raised this for the next seven years at double the raise I got last year, great. Your brain stays anchored into reality. It knows you're not safe. You're not safe. The body is keeping the score all the time even when you're not. No, the government's going to pay it off. The government's going to pay it off. Your brain knows the government never comes through. It never does what it says it's going to do.

No, no, no, bro. This time is going to pay it off. It sounds the alarms. When there's a disconnect between what you're doing and the way you're moving through the world and reality, it will sound the alarms. Yeah, that's funny how we have such little faith in the government until it comes time to our financial situation.

I'll be fine. No, no, no, Biden's got this one, okay? Well, we create fantasies about how we want the world to work. And as the great Bonae Brown says, what you go looking for in the world, you're sure to find. So we want a world where we could go to whatever college we wanted in whatever city we wanted and live however we wanted when we were undergraduates and pay whatever it paid. And we want a world where we don't have to actually pay that back. And then a government politician preys on that feeling, on that sentiment, and goes, I'll pay it back.

And we go, got it, done. Same as you can be an abusive relationship, long term, over and over. And then he says, this time I'll change. And I so badly want that to be true. So I insert that narrative into my story, forgetting the miles of wreckage that our relationship has in the past. It's just the way people are wired and it's the way we do life. We go looking for who's going to bail me out, who's going to bail me out.

Got it. And that's how we live. Yet there's another part of our brain always going, that's not reality, man. It's not reality. You're not safe in this relationship. You're not safe in your financial position. I'm going to sound the alarms. Well, I tell people all the time, you got to look in the financial mirror.

And that means actually looking your bank statements, doing a budget. And I wish we could all just eat cheese stuff crust all day. not get out of shape. Correct. But at some point, we have to choose reality that if we continue these habits, they're going to compound and create a life that we never wanted to live. Exactly. So that's a huge part of it.

And that's one of six choices you talk about in your new book, building an unanxious life. I have a copy here, John. And I thought it would be fun to give away a signed copy of your book to one lucky subscriber. What do you think about that? I'm all in on that. How do we choose who to give it to? Like, if you comment with your Instagram handle and answer this question and you're the first one, how do you want to do it?

I think a great way we can do that is this. We can look at Georgia's studio. For instance, the records, the books. So many books. The first person to comment and say, oh, I saw Deloney do this part of the studio first, and George ripped it off.

Books yours. Okay, so comment with what you think I ripped off from the Dr. John Deloney show. And if you're the first one and you had your Instagram handle, you will be the lucky winner of a signed copy of Building a Non-Anxious Life. And George will sign it too because he is in the acknowledgement. I thought it was the only person signing it.

We never said you would sign it. That's right. That's actually fair. This is called rapid fire. I said, oh, Lord, Jesus is a fire. We invented this concept where we ask questions and we need the answers to be fast, which I know something. To conclusions, Matt. It's not something that you're used to answering questions in a limited amount of time.

You are correct. You ready? I do talk too much. If you could say one thing to the viewers struggling with anxiety, what would it be? You're not broken. Your body's probably working exactly as it was designed to. What is the most memorable call from the Dr. John Deloney show recently? This guy called in and he says, hey, I'm shorter than you would probably expect.

I treat my dogs as though they are royal children. And the main problem is I actually wipe my dog's butts when they poo in the yard. And my friends at work think that's strange and weird and I should probably see a therapist. What do you think? That was the call that threw me. I think I get along with this guy. He leads a very similar life to mine. Very similar.

And I called anonymously, John. I didn't expect you to air my business out there. How dare you? Bad habit you're currently trying to shake. I really, after writing the book, I've got a bad clutter issue in my house. I'm a messy guy. And that's something that it's time for me to begin to dig into. Is your family, are they similar to you where it's kind of like, all right, it's fine?

Or are they, is one a clean freak? You and I are going to a concert later tonight, and you'll write in my, car, you'll see. You'll see what my kids do to the backseat. Okay. This is frightening. It's very much a generational thing that I'm passing along and I'm not proud of it. I think this is the one area I might be able to help you with because I'm, I'm cluttered free since 83. You know me. Clutter free since 83. I run a tight ship. Some call that a pathology. It's a little bit. Some call it OCD.

It's going to be trauma to George. There's a spectrum. From OCD to your life is a nightmare. Yes, correct. You're very close to that end of that spectrum. Let's talk tacos. Let's talk. Corn or flour tortillas? Flower. Unless you're in San Antonio or South, and then corn. Then it's all corn.

Correct. If you want to go authentic Mexican, it's corn. If we're going to be honest. All day. Just for fun, in 30 seconds, psychoanalyze me. You're a really great guy born to two immigrant parents who had to make their way in the United States, and they had to deal with a lot, and they probably shielded you from it. And that shielding probably felt a little bit like they were pulling away.

And so you have tried to bridge that gap by through music, through angst, through, am I doing okay? Am I good? Is it good? Is it good? Is it good? And the answer is yeah, you're good. You're one of my friends. You're good. Wow. That made me cry. Well, that is all I have on my note cards. Is there anything else you wanted to add? I want to leave room for you to say your piece. Karate kick the subscription button. Smash it. Punch it like Mike Tyson. People are unsubscribing as you're saying. If you're a more gentle soul like, then hug it like a dog. A way overpriced designer dog that nature never intended, but a bunch of scientists did. Hug it like a baby.

A precious, precious baby. Well, John, if you're wondering why it took six months for you to get on this channel, this is why. But it was fun. I always have a good time with you in all of its awkwardness. And I do want everyone to pick up a copy of John's book. If you had to give the 15-second pitch, Why should someone go out, get a book, read 200-something pages just to maybe help themselves? What are they going to get out of this?

What we're doing is not working. We have all the answers and we have all the stuff. And yet we're more anxious than we've ever been, more depressed than we've ever been. Our bodies are hollering at us, right? And underneath that lies this one true premise, you're worth something different. You're worth being loved. You're worth sleeping all night. You're worth laughing.

You're worth hanging out with your friends. you're worth being well. You're worth all those things in a culture that says, no, you're not. And so if you want a roadmap to peace, and by the way, for many of us, it takes years, right? It's not a quick fix. You tell people all the time,

getting out of debt takes a while, right, once you commit to it. But if you want a roadmap from here to walking in your front door and laughing, to falling asleep at night because you're tired, to drinking coffee in the morning because you want to, not because you have to.

That's the book. That's the roadmap. Love it. And to quote you, you are worth being well. and I appreciate all of you tuning in today. Always love hanging out. John, where can people find you if they want to follow what you're up to?

You can find me at John Deloney. After you've watched all seven minutes of the at George Camel channel, you can head over to the Dr. John Deloney show. And you're crushing it over there. I hate to say it. And we have friendly competition. But John, I really do love your show. You're taking live calls from people who really need help

who are going through some things. And you make it fun while teaching us all things. So appreciate you, man. Thanks for being on the channel. Huge thanks to Dr. John. Donaloney for hanging out with us today. Hope you guys enjoyed that conversation. Be sure to pick up his new book, building a non-anxious life. I'll drop a link to it down below if you want to buy a copy. As always, make sure to like this video, subscribe to the channel, and share this with all of the unreasonably sticky people in your life. And if you're thinking, George, I don't know any unreasonably sticky people. It might be you.

Thanks for watching. We'll see you guys next time.