Get Played - Video Game Journalism with Jason Schreier

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

Jason Schreier (Bloomberg, Triple Click) joins Matt and Heather to talk about his new book Play Nice: The Rise, Fall and Future of Blizzard Entertainment and video game journalism in general! Jason's new book Play Nice is out October 8th https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/jason-schreier/play-nice/9781538725429/ Follow us on Twitter and Instagram @getplayedpod.Music by Ben Prunty benpruntymusic.com.Art by Duck Brigade duckbrigade.com.Check out our Anime watch-along podcast Get Anime'd and our complete Get Played, How Did This Get Played? and Premium DLC back catalogue only on patreon.com/getplayed. Join us on our Discord server here: https://discord.gg/getplayed Wanna leave us a voicemail? Call 616-2-PLAYED (616-275-2933) or write us an email at [e-mail] Advertise on Get Played via Gumball.fmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a HeadGum Podcast. Okay. You're not wearing a wire. I'm not wearing a wire. Alright. You swear this lead is legitimate because I'm trying to uncover a vast conspiracy that involves the big three hardware companies of video games. So you got my letter then. That's right. I want you to know that this conspiracy goes all the way to the top. Holy shit. The big three, Sony, Nintendo, Xbox, they got blood all over it. They're all involved. They're all involved. All the big players.

And I want you to know it doesn't just stop there, man. It doesn't stop at the top. We're talking about state governments. We're talking about import, export. Oh my God. We're talking about California, Nevada, Texas. We're talking about Oklahoma. Uh-huh.

Washington. That's a lot of, you could just say like- North Dakota. A lot of the states. South Dakota. We're talking about Iowa, Idaho. And now I'm just kind of honestly pretty impressed. Colorado.

I can only name this many in alphabetical order. Minnesota, Tennessee, Kentucky. We're talking about Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi. How do you know which ones you haven't said? We're talking about Illinois. We're talking about Ohio. We're talking about Michigan. Don't tell me Utah's in there.

We're talking about Utah. Oh my God. We're talking about the upper peninsula of Michigan. This is a conspiracy that goes all the way to the top. Okay, well like- All the eastern and seaboard states as well. Maine. Maine, well like... All the eastern and seaboard states as well. Maine. Maine, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania.

We're talking about South Carolina. Okay, but like, come on, I just don't think we have a lot of time. I have to break this story soon. All right. Can you just give me any information you have? Don't rush it, don't rush it, kid. Sorry, hey.

Okay, I want you to know one thing about breaking a story. It's that you can't rush the story, okay? What? Can I just say something? It kind of just like, you're telling me all this, that it goes all the way this and that, or whatever, it's the states and all that. You wanna know how serious I am?

I kind of think you don't got any. What are you talking about? I shot my wife in the head, I put her in the basement. So when you said got rid of them, that's what you meant. I had no choice. I had a suspicion. I had no choice. I don't wanna talk to you. You're involved you're you're involved you can't walk away so you

can't walk away I have the documents I have the document okay show me the documents I'm gonna put this gun in my mouth oh my god I got a receipt so this receipt is that you just bought an Xbox, a PlayStation 5, and a Switch? Ask yourself how I was able to do that in a single store. They sell these at stores! What have you done? What have you done? I've done what I had to do! I guess? Do you have any bus fare?

Uh, no, I don't- Alright, then I gotta start walking. Don't, I'm walking away. I don't wanna, don't tell anybody you know who I am. I don't know who you are, and you don't know who I am either. Is any of this true? Is any of it true?

You're a great journalist, kid, don't give up on it. We review the history of games journalism and also take a deep dive into Google AI as we interview Jason Stryer on this week's Get Played, your one-stop show for good games, bad games, and every game in between. It's time to get played! I'm your host, Heather Anne Campbell, along with my fellow host Matt Appadocka. Hello Everyone and wow

Nick you got anything to say? No, Nick doesn't have anything Wow. Okay. I guess he's just he's just not gonna talk on this one He's he's angry at us, but he is here and he's mad. He's really upset. It's something we said to him right before the show Yeah, he's Blair witching himself in the corner right now. It's really upsetting but Hello everyone and welcome back to the premiere video game podcast, where we've got a really, really cool guest this week. I say we Terry no further, and just get him in. Wait, Terry?

Yeah, that's people say that, right? This would be when I would ask Nick, but he's refusing to talk to us. But I see him, and the way he's like moving around, I think he's saying that that's good. I think that's right. You Terry. You Terry no further. You Terry no further.

In that context only. I don't know of the word Terry otherwise. Is it like... As other than a name, perhaps from... What's that game? SNK is... SNK. No, that's the brand.

The game. SNK is SNK. No, that's the brand. The game. SNK is the brand, like Capcom. Is it, what's it, Final Fight? There you go. Is that it? Is that where Terry's from? Terry Bogart. Oh boy.

But anyway, before we Bogart this anymore, I think that actually works. That's actually pretty good, because we are, we're Bogarting our guest's time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's get our guest in here. He's a reporter at Bloomberg, co-host of the great podcast, TripleClick, and the author of Blood, Sweat and Pixels and Press Reset. His new book Play Nice, The Rise, Fall and Future of Blizzard Entertainment is out October

8th. That's tomorrow as of this release of the recording. It's Shrier Jason welcome back hello Thank you guys for having me on Matt and Heather and Nick. It's great to see you Nick. Why are you being so fucking rude? He's being really that's the thing is actually he's being rude. Yeah, just yeah, it's so I mean you have me here I haven't been on in like three years since I played Mario is missing with you guys And you guys subjected me to that and then you don't say a word? I mean come on Weiger, what the hell? I'll say from my point of view, you're somebody who I would like to have on the show much more frequently than once every three years but you're somebody who I think we all respect

a great deal and don't want to bother. Oh it's no bother. No you gotta email me, you got to email me. Email me all the time. You should be constantly bugging me because I would love... I love Get Played. I would be happy to come on anytime you guys would like. Especially if you're playing something cruel.

Because I want to talk about good games instead of Mario is Missing. Yeah, that was... We did punish you with having you on for Mario is Missing, Yeah, that was, we did punish you with having you on for Mario is Missing, a game that made us all miserable. Well, the truth is, we were thinking about having you on for there's a ROM hack of the game that lets you move half as fast. So maybe that would make the game better.

Just like a slower version of Mario is Missing. Yeah, I was gonna say, last time it was Mario Mario is missing and now it's Nick Weiger is missing. Oh interesting. So it comes full circle. Wow, he's pulling a real Mario, isn't he? That Nick Weiger. He's a bit of a Carmen Sandiego as well, in some ways when you think about it. Because he's a sneak, he's a thief?

He's a sneak and a thief. Sure. But he's not a globetrotter in the way a Carmen Sandia like if if it was like where in the world is Nick Weiger, it's like in and out or That's not the Bourne theater yeah Famously The late Fred Willard was busted. Oh shit. Yeah, it's okay.

He didn't do anything wrong. But yeah, but also going there is, I mean that's a choice. Yeah, my traffic on my way to work stops right there very often. Oh, you get to see people going in? Or is that the morning? It's the morning.

I see people coming out of there at eight o'clock in the morning. Wow. Well, maybe there's good video games in there. It could, it's possible. There's no Mario is missing in there, certainly. So Jason, you're free to go. If you're going to go to a Porto theater, I guess first thing in the morning, fewer

people, more space. I don't know. I don't really... Get it out of the way. Get in there. Go about your day. It's like going to the gym. Some people like to go to the gym at 6 in the morning and some people like to yeah

Frequently a new meaning to rise and grind Jason I have to I'm sort of you know, I'm sort of a podcasting for two here I have to be I have to be Nick and I combined. Okay, you know, what's that Nick? Or was that you? That one was Nick. Anything that you don't like that I say is that I'm sort of doing a Nick surrogate thing. That was Nick. Okay, great. That was Nick.

Great. So Jason, I listen to TripleClick every week. How do you have time to be doing a podcast, writing books, and being a journalist? And do you have time to play a game for leisure at all? Like do you like it's like your whole life is games in other forms Do you get to sit down and relax and just like play something for fun? Well to answer your question of how I have time the answer is I neglect my family It's I Don't really think okay, so I've've been writing about the video game world for

some 15 years now, and at some point along the way, something in my brain switched and I can't, I don't like, I play games for fun all the time, but there's no such thing as not playing games for work. Every time I'm playing a game, I'm thinking about, okay, how can I write about this? How can I talk about this on the podcast in some way? And that's just the state in which I've operated. Like, I'm sure you guys are the same way. When you when you do this and you talk about games or you write about games

regularly, you're just constantly talking about turning them into content. Your brain becomes a factory that turns video games into content sludge. It used to be and Heather will agree, in our old format, in the Mario is Missing days, for example, we would do a new game every week, right? Where we'd cover like a bad or weird video game, and that became such a slog,

and that took over the actual time you have to play something that you'd actually like to be doing. Yeah, I mean like every Saturday and Sunday of that entire time of my life was ruined. Yeah. Ruined. Yeah, because we had to play like Balan Wonderworld. Yeah.

No, we did that in the new format. Oh yeah, that's right. Rebranding was extremely smart on your all decisions. Yeah. As was adding Matt as an official co-host. I think last time I came on, Matt, you were just kind of an informal producer slash. Just a producer. Yeah.

Yeah, I know. And look at us now, Nicholas. Nicholas? Nicholas indeed. Everything's going great. So Jason, yeah, the book comes out on Tuesday as of this release. Why don't you tell us a little bit about, we'll get into like the nitty gritty of it in a little bit, but just tell us like what the book is about.

Sure. So it's a book about the history of Blizzard Entertainment, the video game company behind Warcraft and Diablo and Hearthstone and Overwatch and Starcraft. And like, one of the reasons I wrote about this company is because there are so many it has so many franchises that you have to say in that sentence because so many people have played like it's created five billion dollar franchises that are essentially all cultural phenomena. And it is essentially I mean, I like to describe it to like the normies

as the Pixar of video games. Yeah. It's essentially like one of, like the most beloved video game company not named Nintendo, or at least it was until recently, until the last few years. Wait, I wanna play this game for one second. I wanna interrupt you.

Please. I'm gonna name a studio and you have to say it is the blank of video games. Okay. Because to say it is the blank of video games. Okay. Because you said Blizzard is the Pixar of video games. Except I'm gonna do it in reverse. So what do you think is the the Blumhouse of video games? Well Blumhouse is making games now.

Yeah, but that doesn't count. Because I was gonna say what is the A24? No, okay, they're what is the What is the Annapurna? No, no, no 24 no, okay there what is the? What is this Sony fuck Warner Brothers fuck fuck I guess there is what it who who is the Hideo Kojima? She would just like a wme the Hideo Kojima of video games is Kojima. Oh Okay, gotcha. Wait. Did you think he was making movies this whole time? I mean, it's easy to be confused. Wait, are you asking who the Kojima of movies is? No, I was asking who the Kojima of video games is.

Cause the Kojima of movies is like all his guys. It's like George Miller, it's Nick Ruffin, it's- Nick Weigert. Jordan Peele. Yeah, Nick Weigert. It's Nick Ruffin, it's... Nick Weigert. I mean... Jordan Peele. Yeah, Nick Weigert, Jordan Peele. Lynch is in there, I'm sure. He doesn't talk about him as much as I think he does,

but I'm sure there's a connection there. All right, so I guess what I did was bad, and I shouldn't have interrupted, and I feel bad about it. But so Blizzard is the Pixar of video games because they've created all of these iconic, these iconic franchises. But you know, your book says the rise, fall and future. So it sounded like there's been some drama at Blizzard.

Spoilers, but okay, fine. If we're gonna go there, Heather. But it's on the back of the book. Yeah, and you don't go to the back of the book until you've read it all. Come on. What? That's... Oh no. I have been reading books wrong.

If you're reading a manga, that's incorrect. Yes, it's about the rise and fall on future of Blizzard. So, okay. So, Blizzard was for a long time, I felt like it couldn't miss. Every single thing game it came out with was a hit. It was synonymous with perfection. And it had this reputation for every single time you get a Blizzard game, you know you're getting something special. And then in recent years, it's kind of lost its luster for a whole bunch of reasons. A lot of PR debacles, a lot of the release of a bad game in the form of Warcraft 3 Reforged,

which could have been like a fitting entry for how did this get played. And then most recently, the California lawsuit in 2021 where the California government sued Blizzard, Activision Blizzard, the parent company for sexual misconduct, sexual harassment and discrimination, which led to it getting bought by Microsoft for $69 billion. So it's been a wild ride in recent years. And it's definitely safe to say, I mean, you look anywhere on the internet or talk to anyone who's a fan of their games and they'll have have something to say about why Blizzard is no longer the kind of the the unanimously beloved company at once was it's still a hit machine.

It's still a huge it's still an empire but it's not like it's lost a little bit of its shine along the way and it's had some real like a real real nadir moments. They've lost a lot of people over the years. They've gotten into that like essentially deal with a corporate takeover, a little more complicated than that. But like this battle with their parent company, Activision, it's been a long and turbulent ride that got most turbulent over the last, I would say, six or seven years. As somebody who works in podcasting, the phrase corporate takeover means absolutely nothing to me.

I have no idea what that could be like at all in any sort of way. Very interesting information. Sorry to hear that it's not good. Hey, there's a weird, there's like a giant Spotify logo just popping up on the bottom of the screen here. Like what's going on? Just pay no attention to that.

So I grew up here in Southern California and like on the ass end of like LA County basically. And by that I mean closer to, weirdly closer to Orange County than actual like LA, but still within the LA County and I would spend a lot of time Like I spend more time in Orange County and doing like Orange County stuff I remember being at a friend's office recording a very old old podcast that I used to do with some friends and There was a call. Can we find it on the internet? How embarrassing? Oh god. I hope not. I Really hope no. It was a comic book podcast and we were all actually nice good boys.

And there's no reason to look. I'm surprised that we haven't heard about this podcast more often given how frequently Joel Miller stops by our podcast. You know, yeah, he, one time he came into that show and he took all the comments. He's like, oh, this is like Easter on easy mode. This is where I don't have to look for them. They're all here. But that office was in an adjacent parking lot to the Blizzard corporate office.

Oh wow. And I was like, this shouldn't be here. This is so weird that I like have heard of this company and I can just like technically just walk in there if I wanted to. Very strange. Was this on UC Irvine or was this when they were in the big? Okay, so this was the old days, okay.

Yeah, in the Irvine building, yeah. I used to be a grocery delivery girl back before I was a games journalist. And I delivered to the head of Activision, Blizzard's whatever that CEO's name was. Bobby Cutick. Yeah, I delivered to his house, which looked like a portal to hell. It was terrifying.

It was like, I think there was a black triangle above the door, but I'm not quite sure how to describe it. I just remember being like, holy shit, this is the largest building. I can't believe this is a home. Did he give you a nice tip? No, none of them did. What does Bobby Codake-

I'm starting to think this guy's not so good. What is the order from his... What does his grocery order? I don't remember. This was so long ago, but it was like groceries. It was just... It wasn't like celery. I feel like it was like Pringles and a vodka.

I don't remember. I have no idea. That is not true. I feel like you would remember that if it was Pringles and a vodka you were delivering to Bobby Koenig's house. I wouldn't remember it because so many people ordered basically that from the early days of grocery delivery. They were like, what I want is a bottle of vodka, but I have to make it look like that

wasn't the only thing that I wanted. So it would be like a bottle of vodka and a toothbrush. Or a bottle of vodka, like a full handle of rum and a notebook. That's like when you have to go to a CVS and buy condoms, but you're embarrassed, so you're like, condoms and some gum. Sir, you know these aren't the same thing. Yeah, they're not the same. Do not you know, these aren't the two.

These aren't the same thing. Yeah, they're not the same. They're not going to work the same. Don't chew them both. Heather, because you are a delivery person, do you think that's why you connect to Sam Porter Bridges so much?

I connect to Sam Porter Bridges because I have been in an apocalyptic hellscape for the majority of my adult life. That's why. You guys in your LA jokes. Oh man. It's so hard.

Jason, you don't understand. It's so hard living in LA. Well, cause all you talk about is LA. It was 84 degrees today. I feel like a rule of living in LA is you have to either constantly reference LA like, oh, the Tiki Theater on Sunset. Yeah. Or you just you just are talking constantly about how it's a hellscape.

Those are the rules. If you've seen the sketch, the Californians, we're just like that. Yeah, I get it. That's what we do. I get it. That's what we do. I got it mildly jealous Yeah, we're like everybody in here is like the coolest people you've ever seen This season Alienware has premium gear for every gamers wish list when you shop at Alienware.com slash When you shop at Alienware.com slash deals, you'll have access to leading edge gaming PCs

and accessories for powerful gamers. Enjoy fast, free shipping and long lasting battery life to get the game going and keep it going. Alienware goes beyond performance with Intel Core Ultra processors and sports minimalist designs with advanced features like Alienware CryoTech. Alienware's iconic designs, breakthrough engineering, and Intel Core Ultra processors unleash the best in you. Upgrade to the ultimate gaming setup this season.

Get the gear to go all in. Shop now at Alienware.com slash deals. Do you have a loved one whose native tongue isn't English? Why don't impress them this holiday season by speaking their language with Babbel you can speak like a whole new you with Babbel the science backed language learning app that gets you talking. With quick 10-minute lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts, Babbel gets you talking a new language in three weeks. And because talking is the key to really knowing a language, Babbel is designed for real conversation. Wasting hundreds on private tutors is the old way of

learning languages. Babbel's tips and tools are inspired by the real life stuff you'll actually need when talking. With a focus on conversation, you'll be ready to talk wherever you go. Look, I'm going to be honest with you. I've left the country before. I went to Italy, and they speak an entirely different language there, it's called Italian and let me tell you something If you don't speak Italian the thing is I mean like most of the people there speak English But the thing about Americans that is bad is that we don't try to learn another language So when we go to other places We actually are representing our country in a way that is bad and because other people they learn the languages in other countries

When they go there So what you can do instead of being a rude American like myself, you could download Babbel and actually learn the language and help yourself out. And people in the country that you're visiting will think, wow, this one's actually not so bad. Want more proof that Babbel gets you talking? Studies from Yale, Michigan State University,

and other leading universities continue to prove Babbel works. One study found that using Babel for 15 hours is equivalent to a full semester at college. With over 16 million subscriptions sold, Babel's 14 award-winning language courses are backed by a 20-day money-back guarantee, so your gift to yourself or loved ones is risk- free. This holiday season, give the gift of language with Babbel. Here's a special holiday deal for our listeners. Right now get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners.

No one else, just our listeners. At Babbel.com slash played. P-L-A-Y-E-D rules and restrictions may apply. I guess I don't know this much about what your gaming diet is typically like. If you could, if you weren't gaming for work or for anything like that, what's like the type of game that you absolutely gravitate towards? Like this is my shit.

This is my Jason Schreier special. Oh man. What are you going for? Two answers that I think will please you guys. JRPGs and like adventure games slash visual novels, like story focused games. Or like Obra Dinn likes, I count that in the same category, like Curse of the Good Kids, the Golden Rumble and stuff.

In fact, I'm playing a JRPG right now that has me very excited. I know you guys are into Persona 5, right? Am I remembering that right? I feel like I've heard you talk about that. Are you playing, wait, is it Metaphor? What's the name of right? I feel like I've heard you talk about persona. Wait, is it metaphor? What's the name of it? Oh yeah, metaphor refontasio,

which I'm like, I'm playing an early copy. Yeah, I know it's possibly the worst title, definitely top five worst titles I've heard in a while. I disagree, I think it's good. That's really funny. And it's from Atlas, it's from the director and art director and composer of Persona, the Persona series. And I can't get super detailed on it because the embargo is not up yet, but there's a demo out so I can essentially talk about what's in the demo.

And so I can tell you guys that it is Persona 5, but with fantasy and with like a job system instead of Personas. And it's pretty cool. Oh, I didn't even know it was like that. Oh no. What, metaphor? I didn't know. You'd heard of it though.

No, I heard of this game, I guess coming out. But is this a new one or is this like a- It's brand new, I think it comes out on the 11th? Yes, October 11th comes out. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Fuck. Look at that. Look at that. Games journalists like that brain,

they bring coming back online. I have to play it now. Yes. So there's a demo. You could go and you could just cut this podcast right now and go and download the demo and play that guys. And I got to go. And the save carries over to the full game So you can check it out and I'm gonna I'm gonna

Download that afterwards. It's space though. Also, right? No from the from the trailer. I thought there was space not that I've seen maybe like later on Maybe that's a twist or something. Maybe not. No, it's like this fantasy medieval world And the the kind of the concept is everyone in this world is like a different race and there's a lot of racism. Some of the races are like lower tier and others are not. But here's here's the funny part is that there are these massive monsters that are like deformed, like incredibly creative artistic creations, like again, personas, art director, like one

of them is like a giant baby. And these monsters, these monsters are called humans. So you play as these other races and you're like, they are constantly talking about defeating the humans that are wrecking havoc. And it's just, it's man, I'm excited to go more in depth on this game. You guys will enjoy it, I think, because if you're into persona five, it's man. I'm excited to go more in depth on this game. You guys will enjoy it I think because if you're into persona 5 it's like a new persona game essentially that you're getting that I think will surprise some People in just how close it is to persona 5

Giant baby. Yeah, it's like a giant baby, but I didn't even describe that right. It's a giant baby monster that like eats children That right. It's a giant baby monster that like eats children. Not really starting to sound like someone we know. Yeah, the guy in the corner vibrating. Sorry, Nick. Well, that sort of then brings us to. Something that we do on every episode, we ask a question. And that question is, what are you playing? What are you playing?

Hire me the resident evil merchant and I'm here to ask my friends what they're playing. And when we've got a guest, which is infrequently because of the behavior of Nick Weigar, do we ask him first or do I ask you first, Mad Hubbard? Infrequently because of the behavior of Nick Weigar. Do we ask him first or do I ask you first, Madobo Duggo? Well, Jason said what he was playing right now, but we could also... Jason, are you playing... You can ask him if he's playing anything else.

Are you playing anything else, Jason? I'm playing Zelda too, but I'm sure we'll get into that later. But metaphors are made. Lady Zelda? Lady Zelda or I guess Lady Link Link as she refers to go by. Wait, Link is a lady? I thought Zelda was a lady. No, I just think because the game is called The Legend of Zelda, but you typically play as Link. Right.

So in this one you do play as Zelda. Lady Zelda? Yeah, I guess the thing is you're not wrong. You are just like confused kind of though. In what way am I confused? I guess because... I guess because... I guess the franchise isn't necessarily... Have you played as a lady in any of the other ones? No, you do have to sort of disguise as a lady in Breath of the Wild. Oh yeah, when you get in the desert.

And Link looks real good. He's a little little twink. Okay I don't know if that's alright. Present Evil 4 merchant I gotta say I love you man. I love you too I was at your wedding. I know you made a lot of people extremely uncomfortable. I just wanted to dance Anyway, so by the way when you handed us the rings up there it was for I'm so happy I didn't lose them. They were all gunked up. Well. I was in the river Jason did you have to buy the rings like did you have to trade for this is the thing? He presented to them to us in that sort of like open cloak Jason did you have to buy the rings? Like did you have to trade for them? This is the thing he presented to them to us in that sort of like open cloak motion. What are you

wedding? There were a lot of there were a lot of rings in there and I was like wait we gave you the ones for us we have to buy them back for you. I just want some options. Yeah I had to trade those pink little crystal things for them from the remake. The question is how many did he just go to other weddings that morning and just steal the rings from each of them so he could sell them to you? I believe the fifth amendment. So Jason, you're playing Lady Zelda. I also say that I'm also playing the Lady Zelda.

So I could talk about this. We could talk. This is where we could talk about the Lady Zelda. All right. You guys talk about Lady Zelda. I dipped could talk about this. We could talk. This is where we could talk about the Lady Zelda. Alright, you guys talk about Lady Zelda. I've dipped my toes into this. I haven't I have not had a chance to get too far into it. But I will say Because this is a completely new thing, right? You're obviously you're playing as Zelda, but there's like a this is a almost a Tears of the Kingdom take on the Link's Awakening type thing where it's like a top-down Zelda game,

but it's that cute art style from the Link's Awakening remake. But it has a lot of things in common, I feel like, with Tears of the Kingdom in the way that you have this magic wand that can copy things and you can place them around in the world and use them to for platforming puzzles or to like, you know, there's guards in the first area that are on like a loop or something and you can copy a box and put another box just in the way and they'll be like, what the that box there before and then get stuck and then you can copy Monsters to do attacks and things like that. So you can be very creative with how you play This game which is very very fun I was worried

For some reason I was worried that the mechanic that main mechanic of the wand was gonna become tiresome And so far every time I get to do it. I'm so excited. I love to do it. How are you enjoying the game, Jason? I am a little underwhelmed. Okay. Ooh, spicy. Yeah, this is hot take corner here. I like, so I'm up to the second dungeon of the game. And so, so I made a little bit of progress. I guess not super far, but I'm not really feeling it because the combat is so just clunky.

Because in a normal Zelda game, when you see a monster, it's just kind of like a very simple impediment to your progress because you just hack it with your sword a bunch of times. Or like in Tears of kingdom you exactly you shoot it with like you shoot it with an apple arrow and then you make it go and it all feels very quick and smooth. Yeah, exactly. Please keep keep keep coming. Whereas in this you have to you can't just hit anything. You just have to you have to summon a monster and the AI for the monsters is pretty dumb.

So you have to kind of hope it attacks it. Or you can come up with some creative concoction, which is fun for a bit. But then when you are walking and just trying to get to the next area and you just keep running into monsters everywhere the way you would in any Zelda game, having to keep summoning things just to take them all out is a real pain. At least for me, it just feels like it's like impeding the fun I almost wish that they had gotten rid of the combat and just made this a puzzle game because that would have been much much better Yeah, and then on top of that you got let me just finish real quick on top of that

You can transform into like link the sword fighter And you've got a sword and you become like link but it's on a timer So it's like you can transform into a sword to kill monsters more quickly, but it's limited. So it's just really frustrating when I'm like, man, this is how I want to beat monsters in this game. Like, I don't want to be like taking an extra 20 seconds to have to summon monsters and watch them attack the enemies.

And I'm just trying to get to a new place. So I find it a little bit frustrating overall. I heard a TikTok review of this, as the merchant puts it, Lady Zelda game, and baffling. And it described it as the best Pokemon game that wasn't Pokemon. How accurate would that be? I guess I can see that. Cause yeah, every time you kill a monster,

you can kind of absorb its echo they're called and then you can summon it. Here's the thing though, I hate Pokemon games. Oh, shit. I don't enjoy those either. So maybe that's why I'm not enjoying this so much. Because as somebody who loves Pokemon I Rarely find that I play a game and early on I immediately think this is better than Pokemon gold. It's not There's like there's never really a game that to me is as good as that right so

You know just I can see it, but I Save that assessment for when I'm done with it I've also been hearing complaints that it like, it runs like shit on the Switch. And that like, like people are thinking that it's gonna run better on Switch 2. Cause I mean, we're about pretty close to probably

when a Switch 2 would theoretically be announced is what people are speculating. And people are saying that this is like the last major release for the Switch from Nintendo, most likely. I have no concept of when the Switch came out. It came out I think in 2017. It's been seven years. March 2017.

Yep. That's right. So almost eight years now. Yeah, almost. So the reason it came out in 2017 was the Wii U failed so that release was truncated, right? Yeah. Is that what happened? Because like, I feel like it's not in,

usually all the consoles kind of come out at the same sort of window, but like the PS5 came out in 2020 or 2021, right? Yeah, 2020. Yeah, that is what happened. I mean, the Wii U failed, only lasted less than five years. And yeah, the switch. What happened was Nintendo during the Wii, Wii U was such a failure

that Nintendo decided to combine, like instead of making handhelds and consoles and having totally separate, like software development pipelines for both, they combined all of those teams to just crank out games for the Switch, which is why they've had such a prolific output of new first-party games on the Switch, because it's like all those teams that were making games for the 3DS combined with all those teams that were making games for the Wii U. But yes, and then that was a short life cycle because it was like underperformed so badly

and the Switch came out and that started selling Gangbusters and that has been an extended cycle because it's done so well. I am also like, I mean, here's the thing, as soon as they announce a pre-order for Switch 2, I'm going to get one. I'm like, one. Right? We don't need to be doing this all the time. The Switch runs perfectly good for me. I'm fine. I don't know if I need a new Switch.

Well, this is the first iPhone generation I've skipped in a long time. Oh yeah, that's true. For very similar reasons. Like, I'm a habitual early adopter. I'm a habitual tech updater. Obviously I'm the only, well, no, I know one other person who has the Vision Pro, but I do feel like, I was like,

what can the, like, it feels like a plateau of returns is happening kind of across the board. Like the PS5 Pro didn't sell out on day one, which is crazy for, I feel like the PS4 Pro sold out immediately. And I feel like when you're watching the demonstrations of the new updated fidelity, it's not overwhelming anymore.

I have a theory as to why the Pro didn't sell out and I'll just rule out that it's stupid first. I'll just clear that one real quick. But then my initial thought is because I think right now the only place to pre-order one until I think October 10th is when pre-orders at other retailers go out, is the only place to get one is PlayStation Direct and a lot of people I think are waiting to be able to trade theirs in like a GameStop or something

and then get one. Is what I would do in that situation, but I don't think I'm, I'm not necessarily compelled to do it at all. If I'm being honest. I wish there were more ports on it, so badly. Like more places to plug stuff in, you mean? I wish there were, like, as far as I know,

there aren't multiple USB-C ports on the front of the machine. And as somebody who wears the headset a lot, Yeah. like, you have to have the headset dongle jammed into one of those things, so you only have one port. Yeah, because I thought-

I want more ports. I was concerned you meant like games. Cause I said, I was thinking- No. From the PlayStation 5 library, I got some good news for you. No, I mean- A lot of those.

USB ports. Yeah, no, I get you. Ports. I'll also say, I'm playing something else too. I'm not playing it, but I got it to like mess around with it a little bit and see how good I am at it. Sometimes you gotta mess around, see if you have a connection before you commit. Yeah, just see if I pick it, you know. But this is not a game that I'm gonna, like this is gonna be like a party time type of thing.

I got the Marvel versus Capcom fighting collection arcade classics. And let me tell you something, I'm bad at these games. I'm so bad at Marvel versus Capcom 2. Like, and that's the, like, that's kind of why I bought it. I only really bought it so I could have Marvel versus Capcom 2 on my Switch. Right.

Cause that's, I think, one of the most beautiful looking games ever. Wanna take you for a ride. It's just great. It just looks good. The sprites are gorgeous. I love how that game looks and I like playing it in theory. But getting online with strangers is completely demoralizing. Yeah. You are, I'm just not an online competitive fighter, fighting game player.

I just can't do it. That's just not, that's not my community. I shouldn't be going around there. That's, they have a whole world. They're very, very good. And I'm playing on a Switch. I'm just trying to have a little fun. So there's this guy, Justin Wong, who's like a professional

fighting game player, and he was posting online that like videos of him just playing random matches of Marvel versus Capcom 2 and just wrecking everybody who saw. So it's possible that one of the reasons you think you're bad is because you were playing against a professional Justin Wong and you just get your ass. I really hope that that is the case, but I can guarantee you the most average player would destroy me.

I think his name on Switch is Wazzler. That sounds right. If I'm not mistaken. Oh wow. And Justin Wong is the guy from the famous clip from EVO, where the pairing clip that I showed when I talked about Street Fighter III, where he's facing off against Daigo in one of the Street Fighter III tournaments

in the early 2000s, and Justin decides to launch everything he has as a super, as Chun-Li, at Ken, and you hear somebody shout over the crowd, let's go Justin! And then he gets totally, just demoralized, depressed, debilitated. That clip happens to him. Yeah, happens to him.

Not he didn't do it, it happened to him. Yeah, it happened to him. Okay, that, either way, if if I had fought if I played him online There's I think I would have died in real life He's that that good to be at even that that level to get destroyed like that like I would have Disintegrated leaving my switch behind in a pile of dust. Heather, what are you playing? Well, I've continued to play

Astro Bot. OK, hell yes. I am two hundred and ninety bots into my play. I have not yet beaten it, because I am determined again to gold flag everything before I walk into the boss's arena. And I think I have one more bot to get on a regular island

and then I'm off to break the chains and smash the boss's face in. I feel like the hardest level in the game was a triangle level. And I am surprised how much of a step down the X levels were, the cross levels. Yeah, those ones didn't give me as much trouble, but I will say, there's a level that combines all the shapes.

Uh-huh, it's gonna be a nightmare? It's, that's a hard level. I can't wait. It's like such an exciting level, because of the challenge, but it does not, it is in a game that is filled with joy, and is so fun and exciting, it is relentless. Wow, I love to hear it.

I loved that one triangle level that I texted you guys, and I was like, this level's kinda tough. And then you were like, do you wanna know my tips? And I was like, this level's kind of tough. And then you were like, do you want to know my tips? And I was like, actually, I just beat it. Yeah. It's such a satisfying game. It's a really satisfying game. It remains super charming.

Often, you know, when we close up a game for WePlay, YouPlay, I will be like, I'm gonna keep playing it. And I don't. Yeah. But I am, I think I'm gonna finish this out and maybe platinuming it depending on, like I know that there's like those little things

that you're supposed to take pictures in front of, and I'm like, motherfucker, if one of the fuckin' achievements is taking photos in front of every one of those little standout cutouts things, then I'm definitely not platinum. It's not. I did look at a guide, because some of them are a little more obscure

than just completing a certain task. But they're all very doable. They're all super, like, even some of the ones that are like, you have to go to a certain level to do it. It's not like you have to get to the very end of the level for this one thing. You can get it and then it pops and then you leave and then it's go do something else.

You could do it. It's there, super achievable. I am currently putting Outlaws on hold because of the roadmap of improvements that are being launched in the next month. Yes, I'm taking Outlaws sabbatical as well. We're two Outlaws enjoyers, Jason. We're a couple of sickos over here. I'd like to too. I don't know how much more I'm going to play.

Hey! I thought it was okay. It's no Astro Bot. I'll say that. No. Astro Bot, almost no game is Astro Bot. Astro Bot is really up there, I think, in the pantheon of perfect games. I wanna ask, Jason, in your games journalist, this is not a hard shift to actual topic, but I guess it kind of felt like it, and it would be a natural bridge,

and maybe if I hadn't called it out, we could've just rolled with it, but instead now I'm hypercycling inside my own head. Look, it's just gonna depend on where Ranch puts the brake is all. That's true. We'll be right back. So Jason, in your, one of the things I think is interesting

about your career and say my career as a games journalist is I exited right when you started And so we have we have very few overlaps in terms of like the things that we could have been reviewing at the time I want to know what what game stands out for you as like one of your most pleasurable reviewing Experiences of the last 15 years. So first of all Heather, it's funny because when I was in college, I like thought I wanted to be a screenwriter. So to me, you have a way cooler job than I do.

Reviewing video games is not really that pleasurable to me. What's pleasurable to me is reporting on video games and like writing stories about the video game industry and like talking to people and interviewing people, and calling them up and asking them lots of questions. Because there's nothing better than the pleasure of being a journalist is getting to call up people who are smarter than you and ask them questions that you don't know the answer to, and then getting to know the answers and share those answers with the world.

It's so cool. I mean, that's why I write books. It's just so satisfying for me. So like, yeah, I mean, I love playing games and getting a game early is cool. I have a lot of fond memories of like reviewing like Final Fantasy 15 or like reviewing, like getting the Switch a couple of weeks before it came out.

Lots of cool stuff that I've been able to do, but I would happily give all that up if like as, as long as I could keep reporting and writing stories. When you got the Switch early, did you have a, you can't show this to people in Bargo? Like, could you take it to a bar or did you have to keep it inside your house? No, I played it on the airplane to GDC that year, I remember, and got a lot of looks. A lot of looks.

A lot of jealous people. No, they got, well, so Nintendo used to be like hardcore about that stuff. When we got, so I was at Kotaku in 2012 and the Wii U was coming out and we were set to get a review unit, but I think we had to turn it down because they refused to give it to us unless they could have people come and like like Attach it to a desk with like a lock and only they would have the key like they would have to like padlock it to Our office and not give us the key so we could not move it which we were like no, that's absurd We're not gonna do that. So

Yeah, they used to be militant about that sort of thing. Yeah, I remember the Wii came out when I was a games journalist and I remember this sort of draconian, I want to say there was a briefcase involved. Like there was like a special briefcase. Like the nuclear code? Sort of. Like it's been a while, so I don't quite remember it. But my vague memory of it was there was a briefcase

and when there was a game to review, they would come unlock the briefcase so that you could play the test game because they didn't want that test unit to get out because then you could like theoretically hack the Wii. And you would play the test game and then when you were done, they'd relock the briefcase and chain it to a desk or something

was kind of what I remember them doing. The thing about your life that this could be, you could be conflating a time you were in the room with nuclear coals. Yeah, I think that might have happened. I would buy it. That might have happened. It could have happened. I guess, I mean, I'm not a journalist. I know nothing of journalism. So I'm sort of just like somebody right now that's like,

I just want to pick Jason's brain about a bunch of different things that I think are kind of interesting. And like just very, like, very basic things because I think are kind of interesting. And just very, very basic things because I'm also not very smart. What is computer? Yeah, so what is computer, how you tie. All right, well. Okay.

Have you heard of electrons? Okay, start earlier than that. No, I guess for me, so how did you become even a games journalist? Obviously you have to have a journalism background at some time at some of some kind but I'm guessing that You don't just start with games, right? Well, or did you jump straight into games and all starts with our Lord Almighty who on the first day created the sun and the moon. Oh my God. Oh no. On the seventh day he rested.

We'll be right back. By the way, this is a religious podcast now. It's actually, I'm turning it into Get Prayed. So welcome to Get Prayed with Jason Schreier. It's been a religious podcast, I'll tell you, sir. I was wondering about all the crucifixes. Oh, Nick Weiger is like in a full on priest garb. Well, this is yeah, that's right. He's a man of the cloth.

Now, it's pretty, pretty. Oh, he took a vow of silence that explains everything. Yeah, that's right. What is the question again? I totally like I guess, like, what was your entry point into games journalism in general? Yeah. What have you started?? I totally like. I guess like, what was your entry point into games journalism in general? Yeah. How did you start?

It was an accident. I mean, like I, so I mentioned, so I went to NYU. I like was into film and stuff and wanted to be a screenwriter for a bit, but I also wanted to be a journalist. So it was just kind of, I knew I wanted to be a writer my entire life.

I knew I would just want to be a writer and write something or another, tell stories. And I wound up going to the school at NYU called Gallatin. That is like a create your own major thing. That's just kind of like a joke of a college experience. Like the classes were just like absurdly stupid. And the majors are so funny. There was one kid who majored in like some of these we would swap stories. It was amazing. One kid who majored in teenage mutant ninja turtles. And he did that by studying animation and then Renaissance history,

which combines to make a major of teenage mutant ninja turtles. There were like people who majored in evil. There were like all sorts of urban legends about what people majored in at Gallatin. It was kind of like the quirky joke of a school. Anyway, and then after school, I wound up doing freelance local journalism. And the story I tell, it's kind of apocryphal, but it's true, is that I was back in my parents'

place for a few months after I graduated. And so I was doing local journalism in the suburbs of New York where I grew up. And then I was in this zoning board meeting in this one little city and it was a bunch of old dudes like sitting at a podium and they were arguing over whether fence is allowed to be 25 feet or 30 feet and I was just sitting there with my laptop and I was just like this is hell like I cannot do this is there something more interesting I could write about and then I kind of was like, I should get into writing about games. I should see if that works.

Because I had done like, like, unpaid reviews in college for like little volunteer websites where like you get a review copy and that's your payment for a review. And I was like, I wonder if I could just try to do that full time and see how it goes for like a year or two. And then I got really lucky because the internet hadn't quite destroyed journalism yet. It was like on the way it was close, but hadn't quite destroyed yet. And so there was this website popping up called Patch. Do you guys remember this?

Do you guys remember Patch? It was this local journalism like network. It started in like 2009 or so. And the idea was like it was going to be hyper local journalism in a billion different places and they had all this seed money and investments so they could pay people. And I found this gig, this was like 2010 or 2009 or something like that, I found this gig that would have me copy edit retail listings because part of their like way of making revenue is to advertise for like retailers. And so the retailers would write things and then I would have to copy edit them to make

them like into proper English. And you have to do like 100 of them a week or 300 some number a week and you would get paid $500 a week. And I, because I'm a very fast reader, I found that I could do them all in like five hours. So I was getting paid 500 bucks a week to do five hours of work a week, which allowed me it gave me this like the safety net that allowed me to do actual freelance journalism and start building a career and like writing about games and stuff. And then eventually got a job at Wired, which is my first kind of like permalance job. And even Wired, they didn't pay me enough to like pay for my rent. So I just had this baseline of this patch job.

It's almost like UBI that I was very lucky. I found this job that gave me like a safety net for five hours a week. I could do it while watching football on Sundays for five hours. It was amazing. Wow. for five hours a week. I could do it while watching football on Sundays for five hours. It was amazing. And so without that, I probably would have found another job because I would not have been able to support it. It's impossible to support yourself on a freelance writer's job without having some other day job or something else. That's true, even more true today, but it was true back then. And then, yeah, I was a wire for a couple of years and then Kotaku, Stephen

Titillo, who was the editor Kotaku called me up and we had a meeting and I had way too many drinks, but still somehow got a job. And then I was a Kotaku for a long time and that kind of kickstarted my career. But really, I just kind of fell into it because I never thought I would stick with video games. I thought it was just going to be one more thing on my way to writing other things. And then maybe I would go do other types of journalism or I would write different kinds of books. Or I would explore screenwriting or TV writing or something like that. And then just kind of landed into this.

And then inertia and laziness prevented me from stopping. And now I'm fully committed. Can't go back now. No way. Because I think of if somebody mentions like the idea of a video game journalist, just somebody who comes up in my brain as somebody who does that. It's like that means I've been doing this for too long and I need to find another. No, it's good. I think it's it's like I need to.

So I need to interview Heather about how to pivot from journalism into something more fun. Well, uh... You got to deliver groceries for a time. Jesus Christ. Um, well, no, because I went grocery delivery, transcribing reality television, were my day jobs that allowed me to break into games journalism. Got it. my day jobs that allowed me to break into games journalism. Because yeah, at the time, if you're, like I was writing stories, my initial work on like,

what the fuck, what was the name? It was Edges, it was Edges online portal, which was called like gamesindustry.biz or gameinformer.biz. It was some fucking online portal because edge.comiz or gameinformer.biz. It was some fuckin' online portal because edge.com wasn't their online portal. And I can almost guarantee you now, that's a different website.

Yeah. But yeah, I went from grocery delivering and transcription, which were my patch, and then indie games journalism, and then when the whole fuckin' system collapsed in 2008, 2009, then I exited and spent about three months in a fucking freefall of absolute abject panic as like I blew through all of the money

I had remaining and then maxed out all of my credit cards and was doing sketch comedy at the time constantly. Yes. And so then I went straight from that to SNL. So there wasn't really a, I think you have to be so scared for such an intense amount of time that either the simulation that we're all a part of

bends just slightly to catch you, or I'd also been, I mean, I'd been doing comedy for like 20 years or whatever the fuck at that point because I started so young. Do you think your time at SNL, do you think you had maybe ever mentioned out loud that Mario should be in a courtroom sketch and that's why they did it with Elon.

Dude, when I was at SNL in 2010, I pitched Pokemon sketches and they were like, what is Pokemon? And I was like, it's cute, it's enormous. It's the most profitable IP on planet Earth. And no shit, no shit. I pitched it on the weekend that was the anniversary that happened in 20, it was either 2011.

SNL 40 or something? No, no, no, the Pokemon anniversary. Oh, for Pokemon, yeah. Cause it was like some big anniversary that year, it was either 2010 or 2011. And when they were like, well, nobody knows what Pokemon was, downstairs at 30 Rock, they were having a massive concert

that the presidents of the United States were playing and they had a huge Pikachu float and I was like, it's the thing out the window. But we did not get a Pokemon sketch on that week. Damn. Heather, is that why Wire calls you Edge because of Edge Magazine, is that where it comes from? He doesn't call me Edge, he just calls it out.

He just says Edge. Edge! I want to circle back to something that Jason said earlier. He said that because I think this idea is interesting. That the internet has destroyed journalism. Do you mean in terms of

physical print media or the way that now any article has comments, a comment section under it and you can just say whatever the hell you want about it. No, the economics of it all are completely torched. I mean, there's no way to make money doing journalism unless you're very, very lucky because Google and Facebook have just eaten up all the ad revenue and now it's even worse. Like literally like in the last few months, it's gotten like it's gotten really, really bad to apocalyptic

because Google added these AI summaries on top of all of their searches. And so now, so a lot of websites have been kind of like finding. So after all the ad revenue went away, which just continued to get worse and worse every year, So a lot of websites had been kind of like finding. So after all the ad revenue went away, which just continued to get worse and worse every year, some of the some of the websites like found some kind of salvation with guides because a lot of people were Googling like how to beat this Baldur's Gate three dungeon or like the bestseller ring builder or whatever. And so all these gaming websites would post their own guides.

And that has now been torched because now when you Google, like what's the best-selling ring build, instead of going to Polygon or IGN, Google will just take their stuff and put it in their AI summary. So Google is just completely like the, it's a vampire of news media and it's just killing it all. I want it

Jason Maybe you can give me your theory on What the fuck Google is going to do for revenue if they're cannibalizing their own ad business? By putting AI summaries at the top of the search pages like Like what do you think the fucking plan is there? A fantastic question. I don't think they know. I think they're just like, oh, this is cool. Let's do this.

Let's attach this AI stuff. Or like all our shareholders are into AI. Let's put AI everywhere. I don't think they have a long-term plan because it makes no sense. How the fuck are they gonna make money? Like selling ads is all that... Google is an ad company.

That's right, and we'll be right back. What? Just because we're trying to get as more ad breaks in the show. Oh, oh, oh, oh, right, right, right. Um... Grapes. I mean, like... Yeah. I've been eating grapes a lot lately.

This episode's brought to you by grapes. LAUGHTER Well, I'm glad that you're as confused as I am, because when the AI summaries came up at the top of the Google search, I was like, wait, but you're not paying for this. What the fuck is happening? And it's a cool thing about-

It feels like it shouldn't be legal. They're literally just stealing things from websites and it just doesn't compute for me. It doesn't make sense. I'll say the good thing about them is they're almost never the exact thing you need. I'll see something in one of those sometimes and be like, well, this is just wrong. This is actually not helpful to me. The good news is that they're useless. If I'm like, wait, is a baked potato 350 or 400,

I'll put in how long to cook a baked potato for, and it'll be like, cook it at 1,000 degrees for two years, and you'll be like, what the fuck is this? But yeah, gosh, I know. It's such a double-edged sword, because obviously, I hate AI, and I hate all that type of stuff. But then when you do look up a recipe online, you gotta read someone's whole fucking life story

of how long to bake mac and cheese in a damn thing. There's always a jump to recipe. Which is because of Google. So this is because of the way Google search results work. It's all the entire internet is just a house of cards that Google has forced everybody to build, and it's like one Google algorithm change away from collapsing, but it's all because of Google.

It's some absurd stat, like 90% of the internet's ad revenue is like Google and Facebook, which has just completely eviscerated the rest of the internet and made it so it's impossible for. And really, I mean, the kind of, the original sin, to get this back on get-praised messaging, the original sin of the original sin to get this back on get prayed messaging the original sin of the internet is Is making news free and making news available for free because it's conditioned us all to think of news as something We should just get without having to pay for it where?

Whether and and that of course means Journalism's journalists like have to do their jobs for free or find some other way of making money. And ads won't cut it. Ads can be part of the equation, but we need to recondition everybody to pay for news again. And it's nice that we've seen some people found success with subscriber models on websites and on podcasts and different types of media. Substack too. Yeah.

And so that I think is a good step, but like not everyone can do that. And a lot of people are just getting chewed up along the way, sadly. Do you think there's like a way forward outside of the the AI transcription things? Or like, is there a way for, it's such a big question, is there a way for games media to recover beyond that? Outside of just publishing guides? What do you think? What are you doing on this?

I'm super pessimistic about this. I think that just, yeah, I don't know, with games media, it's impossible to know. Cause it's not like, I don't know. It's, it's really tough. I don't have a good answer to that. Jason, I think that in a way your path is the path forward because like if, if people are going to look at, if you, if you Google like, you know, latest release PS5 this week, it's just going to be an AI summary.

But if you're looking for actual in-depth journalism, the books that you're writing are in a space that I don't think a lot of other people are occupying. And it is a totally unique and very dense and very critical form of journalism. I feel like deep dives like this are the, maybe I don't know how enormously profitable they are. Like I don't know if they're making you

an all-multi-millionaire, but they do feel like a way to take the thing that we all used to love about journalism and still create a space for that journalism to be purchased, ingested. Like, you're not going to enjoy an AI summary of Play Nice as much as you are going to enjoy the book itself. Heather, do you know how many people read books and buy books? It's like, it is so depressing. The numbers like a successful book release. The numbers are all funky. But like I feel like a book publisher would consider a book really successful if it sells like 50,000 copies total, like that would be very successful for a book. Like books don't make any money. Unfortunately,

I've been very lucky in that I have this job at Bloomberg and they treat me very well and they pay well and they're very good to their staff. But Bloomberg stuff is behind a paywall. We have readers who pay for it and that's how they're able to do it. Just like the New York Times, it's behind a paywall and they are able to operate as a successful business because they convince readers to pay for it. Books. Yeah. I mean, books for me have been like a nice supplement. Like every every six months, I'll get a nice royalty check. But even I mean, my books are sold quite well. And even I haven't been able to like quit my day job just to write books all day.

So like they're not. Yeah. But books are not really a feasible option. They were fucked. Yeah. Well, like, I mean, let me let me put this another way. Like, they're going to be YouTubers on Tuesday when my book comes out. They're going to be YouTubers who have 20 minute videos where they skip through the book and like, read all of the highlights and they're going to get more hits than the book will ever sell. Like, that's how the internet works. That makes me want to throw up. That is how the internet works.

God, that's so depressing. Unless you're like JD Vance, you're not making millions of dollars off of books. I guess I'm glad I'm not JD Vance, I don't know. Jason, have you seen All Watched Over by Machines of love and grace? No it's a documentary about the creation of the internet and sort of the libertarian ideals that all of these guys shared when first

Crafting the internet and and the world that they thought they were going to make and then what's actually happened. It's an Adam Curtis documentary I think you would you would enjoy how miserable it is. I think I would just be depressed. It's like depressing enough having to work in this field and see like the layoffs and shutdowns every day. Game Informer Magazine, like a stalwart of the video game industry just shut down a couple of months ago.

It's just like constant. And that's such a bummer too, because they just like came back in like a subscription plan for people to not have it get it through GameStop Pro. I guess I was kind of like a last effort, like trying to save it. But yeah, I mean, GameStop is kind of fucked. So it makes sense that their magazine that they would shut down their magazines aren't profitable either It's just all it's all a mess. Like it's all a disaster. I Wish I knew what it was about Japan

Because I was having a conversation with a new friend the other day and we were talking about the Japanese new friend Yeah, a new friend. What the heck? What first I'm hearing the Japanese new friend. Yeah, a new friend. What the heck? What? First time hearing about this new friend. What? Wait, is it weird to say new friend? No, I'm just... Matt is jealous.

It's interesting. I'm just, no, no, no. I'm not jealous. I'm just saying, I'm just kind of interesting. What does that mean? I don't know. Nick, if Nick was here, I can guarantee you, he would have been like new friend, huh?

What is that? Was the new friend at Matt's wedding? No. No. Oh, that's a faux pas. No, it's just a friend. Yeah, that's what everybody wants. Everybody wants somebody that they know very well to bring somebody they've never met before to their wedding. Exactly. Well, isn't that, that's what Plus One's here for.

That's right. I was trying to be like, I had a conversation the other day with, and I didn't wanna say someone I had just met, but I also didn't wanna say friend, because that implies like a long-term relationship. So I was like, a new friend. Well, Matt is just upset that you're not updating him on all of the new friends.

I gotta have a new friend roster at all times. I gotta know who's Campbell's talking to. I gotta vet these people. I gotta know who's Campbell's talking to. I gotta know, I gotta vet these people. I gotta make sure they're okay. I wanna make sure they're gonna be nice to my friend. Okay, well, we were having a conversation about the Japanese retail space and how it has succeeded and endured,

even as the retail space everywhere else has sort of dried up. And that extended to me in all of my magazine subscriptions are Japanese magazines. And when I was in Japan a few months ago, I would go to the bookstores and there'd be stacks and stacks and stacks of magazines in a way that I don't feel is something that still exists

in American retail spaces. And I wish I knew what the fuck was happening. It's not like they don't have the internet. It's not like they didn't even have the internet before us. Smartphones were like, they were on the cutting edge of smartphones before the iPhone came out. So why the fuck did retail and magazines succeed in Japan

where they're failing everywhere else in the world? I don't know, I don't know the answer to that. I do know that in the Japanese media space it's a little bit more symbiotic with the publishers as opposed to like an independent kind of journalistic outlet stuff. But I don't know, I don't really know what the economy's like there.

I don't know either. I have like a sort of like, I have have a specific journalism question I have for Jason. This is a podcast where we just ask questions that we don't have answers to. Here's the thing. Look, on this podcast, we're just asking questions. We're just asking questions, man. We're just asking questions.

Hey, we're just talking here. What is your journalism question? I wanted to know your question. So when you're writing a story, Jason, what is the thing that you're writing a story, Jason, what is like the thing that like, that you're looking for that like, to get you interested in pursuing an investigation? Cause I'm sure there are a bunch of things

that come across your desk often that you're sort of like, ah, there's not a lot of juice there. What are you looking for like in pursuit of like a good story? Usually it's like, usually when I work on a story, it starts with like some question that I think is interesting that I'm very curious about the answer to. And I think other people and readers will also be curious about the answer to. So it might be like, why did this high profile game turn out to be a

disaster or something like that? Or how did, how did this get made? That sort of thing. And then there are other kinds of elements that make a good story. Every good story has some sort of thing. And then there are other kind of elements that make a good story. Every good story has some sort of conflict and tension. Every good story has some sort of like this person wants X, but here are the obstacles getting in their way from getting X. And that's as true as in journalism as it is in fiction storytelling. See, Heather, this is me auditioning to be a TV writer, so hit me up with those TV writing gigs.

Well, that is interesting to me, because obviously, and I guess, so when you write something that's like, when you write a book versus writing a story for Bloomberg, I would imagine that that's not too different of a muscle, but it is probably just a little bit different because the scope is so much larger, correct? Yeah, it's a lot more elaborate.

The structure is much different. The structure is the biggest thing. I tend to work in structure. Structure is the biggest thing to care about for me. It's the thing that I spent the most time thinking about in storytelling structures. When you're doing a story, an article on Bloomberg or anywhere really, you need to have a specific structure that is like, if it's a feature or something, usually it'll have some sort of grabby lead and then it'll open and then it'll get into a nut graph that kind of contextualizes

things and explains why this matters. And it'll go in a bunch of different directions from there. But it's generally following a very specific type of structure as opposed to a book where you have a lot more room to explore and you can kind of you can ask a bunch of questions instead of just one single thesis and it's a lot more sprawling and there's a lot more room for nuance and complication and so like in Plain Ice for example I mean I cover a lot of different aspects of Blizzard's culture and get into a lot of themes that like I think an article wouldn't be able to do. An article wouldn't be able to explore some of the nuances of various parts of Blizzard's

history and Blizzard's culture. Like a good example, to give you guys a concrete example, the book explores this battle that happened between Blizzard CEO Mike Morhaime and co-founder Blizzard CEO and co-founder Mike Morhaime and Activision Blizzard CEO slash Pringles and Vodka order Bobby Kotick. No, no, no. I do not want to get to, I'm going to get a K with a fucking lawsuit. That is not what happened. It's not against the law to allege that somebody has enjoyed pringles and vodka.

I don't. Please. I'll represent you in court. Oh, my God. I'm going to get I'm going to lose everything. Going to walk in there with a tie wrapped around my head. What do I even do in here? And so on top of and so this this battle is like it's I think you could explore it in a lot of different ways. I think in a more simplistic article and something that is only two thousand words, you might

have to go with a more reductive approach that doesn't take the time to understand like how we got to this point where Blizzard, which values creativity, is butting heads with Activision, which values predictability. Whereas in a book, you can kind of, you can explore every side. You can try to understand why each side is doing what they're doing and making the decisions they're doing. So like I have a whole chapter in the book called, it's just titled Bobby and it's about the rise of Bobby Kotick and his path to taking over Activision and transforming it into this multi-billion dollar business and how much predictability kind of steered him along the way and this idea of hitting schedules and releasing games every single year

and exploiting, to use his words, franchises. Whereas the context about Blizzard is a little bit different and that's a company created by people who love playing games, who wanted to make games that they enjoyed playing and were addicted to and stuff. And so getting a lot of that backstory and context and just exploring it in different angles is not something you can do in an article, even like a long form magazine article. You just have a lot more space in book storytelling to get to know those people and get to know the companies and get to know the companies and get to know the histories involved.

And so like with like the structure that you have for like with writing a book, did anything change with this book as opposed to how you tackled the first two books or was this like a pretty like a pretty linear process like as far as like starting from nothing to having a full book. Yeah, I mean, so the first two books were both the first books I did, Blood, Stone, Pixel and Press Reset were both anthology stories. So they were both kind of compilations of different. The first, the first book was about how games are made, like different development stories. And the second book was about game studios shutting down and

those kind of those stories about what happened to people after that. And so this book is all one big story, which by itself made it very different and made it a much different kind of structural challenge for me to approach as opposed to like within anthology I could be like, okay, this is like one big article, I can do that. Whereas with this, I was like, oh, I have no idea what I'm doing here. So yeah, it was definitely it was an interesting challenge to take on, but it was fun. It's it's I find it more rewarding and I'm proud of it. Like I think this one is the best book that I've written, so I'm pretty proud of it.

I've been reading it and I've been really enjoying it. And I guess it should I mean, it's coming out the same day as as Diablo 4 or Vessel of Hatred, right? it's like the sequel to Diablo 4 and Fortunately, I'm releasing an audiobook version of of play nice so you can listen to it while you play Diablo 4. Don't worry There you go. And it should be noted that Ray Chase our friend as well Does all of Jason's audiobooks? Yes, Ray Chase, best known as the designer of Date Everybody, but also the voice of Noctis in Final Fantasy XV. Just a mood set of pipes on that guy. Yeah, he's good. We love Ray here. Jason, thank you so much.

I mean, before we get you out of here though, I do have a segment for us. Oh, wow. It's time for a segment. That's right. I'm going to read a vague plot summary of a video game and see if Heather or Jason can tell me what it is. It's time for Vague Rint Story. That's good.

I love it. I love it. That's pretty good, right? Okay, so these are just just vague plot descriptions And if you can tell me what it is you get a point, okay? Okay, just a simple silly little game It's just like a silly thing. Here we go a Young hero and his sidekick embark on a quest to save their world facing various obstacles in mysterious creatures While uncovering ancient secrets along the way they navigate vibrant landscapes and collect unique items

Ultimately confronting a dark force that threatens everything That's there's no Each shit It's vague yeah, but like literally if. Eat shit. It's vague! Yeah, but like literally if that's gonna be- are you just gonna read that five times? I only have the one, yeah. No, I have- there's different ones that are all more or less kind of similar. Alright, I'm gonna guess Dragon Quest VIII.

That is incorrect Heather. Of course it is! Because it could be fucking anything! Look, it's the game a boy in his blob That is incorrect the correct answer is Jack and Daxter moving on to the second one In a dystopian world Oh my god a woman uncovers a conspiracy while trying to save her planet from an oppressive regime

With the help of allies she documents the battles enemies, and seeks to reveal hidden secrets. Parasite Eve! That is incorrect. Fuck! I thought I had a shot on that one. Um, Veronica Mars. It is not Veronica Mars in the video game. It is in fact Beyond Good and Evil. Ugh! Moving on. This is making me mad. A soldier undertakes a secret mission, facing off against former allies and navigating complex loyalties while uncovering deep conspiracies. Metal Gear Solid. Give it to him. Give it to him. You made the face. I'm gonna give it to him. The answer is Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater. Oh come on. Well that could have been any of the Metal Gear Solid games, right?

He is kind of doing that a lot. Jason got a point. Jason's on the board with one point. A young warrior navigates a conflict between powerful factions and uncovers truth about his identity and destiny amid a backdrop of chaos and betrayal. Stop it. Okay. Stop it. Final Fantasy 16. It is Final Fantasy 16. That's right! Stop it. I made a backdrop of chaos and betrayal stop. Okay stop it final fantasy 16

We're all tied up here Got a couple more see actually huh? It's a terrible game. No no no there was no saying before but actually fucking credit for this The game is kind of good now because it's tied up No, it's not a good game The game is good, a mercenary seeks power and identity in a sprawling dystopian city making choices that shape their fate while navigating complex relationships and corporate intrigue Final Fantasy 7 That is incorrect

Cyberpunk 2077 Heather's got two points, Cyberpunk 2077 Holy shit! AHHHHH What I've ever punk 2077 Heather's got two points And now the games kind of interesting because There's a bit of an upset. You know why I'm good at this. What's that? It's because the opening paragraph to any play magazine review of a game was this kind of recap Here's our next one this This is still anyone's game. A hero pursues a dark entity across varied realms battling evil forces and seeking powerful artifacts to restore balance and confront the ultimate threat. Jason hates it. You've ruined our relationship with our new friend.

I made a man. Man hates new friends. I made a man. Matt hates new friends. I'm gonna guess. I'm sort of in my, well, Drake once said no new friends, but actually we don't abide by anything he says anymore. Yeah, fuck Drake. So actually new friends only.

All right, you ready? Yes. Kingdom Hearts 2. That is incorrect. I will say it is a sequel. I don't know, man. It could be anything Chrono cross is not chrono cross. It is Diablo 2 in fact and finally a Hero reunites with friends to battle dark forces and restore balance to multiple worlds while uncovering mysteries

The next part was gonna be a little less vague while uncovering mysteries. I Know I just swung through the fences, but I'm doing it again. Kingdom Hearts 2! It is Kingdom Hearts 2. Heather is the winner of our game. Sorry, Jason. And that's this week's Get Played. That's insane. Jason, anything you'd like to plug before we get out of here? Yeah, I'm going to plug never coming back on this show again. What the hell? No, Jason, please come back. Nick's gonna be so mad. Yeah. Everyone out there, if you've heard of Get Played, but have you heard of Get Play

Nice, the new book from Jason Schreier? That's what you should go and do this week. Go. Yeah. You should get Play Nice, the book. Yes. That's what people should do. Get it in multiple formats. Get it a hardcover book. Get the audio book. And where can people find your writing otherwise, Jason? People can find my writing on a website called Bloomberg.com. It's a website started by a former mayor who decided he wanted to write about video games and he decided to No, you can you can find myself on Bloomberg and on triple click, of course and all sorts of other places But most notably in the book play nice the rise fall and feature of Blizzard Entertainment Which is full of descriptions that are very specific and not vague at all

full of descriptions that are very specific and not vague at all. I will say, I listen to Triple Click every single week. I'm a huge fan of the podcast and it's damn like bizarro. They're bizarro us, but in that they're like they're smarter and better at it than than we are. Jesus Christ. What I mean, you just you just knifed yourself and knifed me at the same time. Heather would fit in really good over there because Heather is really nice. But oh, oh, can you guys?

I feel like you guys should set a trap for Wiger like in that studio. Like you should put a big like bear trap on his chair just for. Let me tell you something. Next time he comes, he's just like, ah, oh no, it's a bear trap There's no trap required for that guy. He's always fucking around doing some stupid. He's he the other day He spills constantly. I don't know if you know this about him Jason. He's always spilling I did reveal to us an hour after we were in the same room together that he had spilled prior to the record He didn't even because he knew we would bring it up.

He's always spilling, breaking glass. We're even gonna talk about it on the podcast where he never said anything. I know, he does it that much that it's just a constant, it's a threat that looms over us all. But that's this week's Get Played. Our producer is Rachelle Chen Ranch. Ranch.

Yard underscore underscore start on social media. Our music is by Ben Prunty, benpruntymusic.com. Our art is by Duck Brigade Design, duckbrigade.com. And check out our Patreon, patreon.com slash get played for our entire pre-Headgum back catalog plus ad-free main episodes as well as our Patreon exclusive show, Get Animated, where we're watching

Terminator Zero. That's right. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun John John John John John come with me if you want to live He's not he's not in it. No, he's not in it And yeah, you can find that over at patreon.com Get played and Jason. I know that we kind of we seeded this earlier because my game was bad and it made everybody really upset But you did get played, Jason, and I'm really sorry. Oh no.

Oh no. That's the best reaction. That was a hate gum podcast.