Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - 124. Lee Grant

Episode Date: October 10, 2016

Gilbert and Frank visit the home of Oscar-winning actress and director Lee Grant, who speaks openly and candidly about everything from her years on the Hollywood blacklist to her friendships with Hal Ashby, Grace Kelly and Walter Matthau, to her decision to turn down a classic sitcom role. Also, Lee remembers Sharon Tate, praises the talents of Rod Steiger, shares the stage with Peter Falk and flips the bird on "The Tonight Show." PLUS: "The Landlord"! "Divorce American Style"! Olivia de Havilland takes a swim! Gilbert crushes on Warren Beatty! And the only Jewish James Bond villain! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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And if we raise enough, maybe I can finally get a new co-host. I'm thinking of the Scarlett Johansson robot. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast. I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. Our special guest this week is a much-admired actress, producer, and director who's been nominated for four Oscars and seven Emmys, winning three times. She starred in such popular films such as Detective Story, Valley of the Dolls, In the Heat of the Night, Plaza Suite, The Landlord, Defending Your Life, Mulholland Drive,

and Shampoo, for which she won the Academy Award as Best Supporting Actress. Memorable TV roles include The Fugitive, The Defenders, The Big Valley, Mission Impossible, Great Performances, Columbo, and Peyton Place. In the Emmy-winning role of Femme Fatale, Stella Chernak. Chernak.

Stella Chernak. Stella Chernak. Chernak. Stella Chernak. Stella Chernak. Thank you, Lee. Wait till I introduce you before you start correcting me. Don't make me look like a schmuck on my own show. me look like a schmuck on my own show. She's also an award-winning director of features and documentaries, including the Melvin Douglas drama, Tell Me a Riddle, the Emmy-winning TV movie, Nobody's Child, and the Oscar-winning documentary, Down and Out in America. In a long and distinguished career, she's worked with Kirk Douglas, Sidney Poitier, Julie Andrews, Peter Ustinov, Walter Matthau, George C. Scott, Mike Nichols, Meryl Streep,

Henry Fonda, and Warren Beatty, just to name a few. Her 2014 memoir is entitled I Said Yes to Everything, and we're glad she said yes to this podcast. Please welcome an artist of many talents and a woman who once gave the finger to a network executive on national television, the legendary Lee Grant. What a woman. Wow.

Wow, I'd like to meet her. Hey, do you know, I'm talking about myself here, when I was a kid, me and my two older sisters, Arlene and Karen, you could still get bargain tickets on Broadway. And we saw Prisoner of Second Avenue with you and Peter Falk. Yes, yeah. Mike Nichols directing, Neil Simon writing. It was two-character play.

You know, it was a big, big, big deal for me. And what was Peter Falk like to work with? Well, you know, it's so interesting when you were mentioning all of these things. I was on Broadway yesterday or the day before, and this walk in the dog, you know our dog that barks in the background. Yes. Bella the dog. Bella Fioretti. And so there were two women on Broadway, and one said to me, did you know the Gabor's? Ava Gabor and Zsa Zsa Gabor, a woman with a dog.

And I said, no, she says, you look like someone. You look like one of the Gabor's. Didn't know who you were. No, but she thought I looked familiar. And I said, well, you know, I was an actress. And she said, well, what did you, what's your name? And I said, Lee Grant. And she said, Columbo, Peyton Place. I mean, she didn't go to any of the theaters.

I mean, and that's where everybody goes. I was sitting next to somebody in the theater, and they said, Stella Chernak? You know, from Peyton Place. Which was like 40 years ago. You know, but that's the kind of, you know, memory pocket that people go to, like when they were kids, you know, watching TV and and well you know you mentioned any of the people who were like huge stars that I was with like even Warren or you know people were great stuff nobody knows them today that's a shame yeah that's why we do this show to keep those memories alive nobody Yeah, but nobody, they're not current. Everybody is like, you have to be current on television,

a talking head, or you're a lost memory. Ah, good title for the next book. Yeah, good title for the next book. Now, how old were you when you were first on stage? How old were you when you were first on stage? Well, I was like four when I was on stage at the Metropolitan Opera House because I was taken there by my mother for dance lessons. And they needed a Chinese prince, and you can see I still look like one. Your mother wanted you to be a ballerina, didn't she?

She wanted me to be anything, anything, including a rich wife, that would elevate me from her Odessa, Russia background. You know, anything. But it was all in the dreams. It was all in the movies. It was all in the black and white films, you know, of the rich rustling ladies. And your parents were two Russian Jews, the Rosenthal's.

No, my father was a Polish Jew. Polish Jew. And my mother was a Russian Jew. Yes. And you said that they so worship the old movies that they started to act like the actors in the talkies. Oh, Mom and Aunt Fremo? My mom and her sister, Fremo. There's an oil painting right around the corner that Fremo did, and you'll see. They had completely fantasy lives. And they talked to each other like the women in the movies do. They talk like this, and they talk Fremont, yes, dear.

Listen to Yorva, which is my name in Russian. Yorva, nobody could say it. Listen to Yorva sing. Oh, my God. I'm fainting. Like Margaret Dumont. They spoke like that.

And so did I. When I went to the neighborhood playhouse they did a recording of my voice and there i was saying yes my name is lova haskell rosenthal and and i thought who is that and it was me echoing their bird voices you know and so the speech teacher there got me lower lower lower, lower, talking in my chest. And that's when I realized that you echo the

people around you. Tell us about the local theaters, too, because it's in the book. The Dorset Theater and the RKO Hamilton that you used to go to movies. Because you're a New Yorker. I'm a New Yorker. Upper West Side. And you know Dinah, my daughter, Dinah Manoff. Dinah Manoff, the actress.

Dinah Manoff came in a couple of weeks ago, and I said, Dinah, I want to go back to 148th Street. I want to see the brownstone that my grandmother had there. You know, I just wish I could ring the bell and go in and see all those floors because I loved the brownstone so much. And so Dinah and I took a cab up to 148th Street and the brownstone was knocked down. Oh, that's bad. Yeah.

And so it was no more. I'm sure the movie theaters are gone too. Well, the movie theaters are gone, too. Well, the movie theaters are gone, too. But that was our realm. And I never had anybody go with me across a street. You know, there was the drive. There was Broadway. We lived between Riverside Drive and Broadway.

But a kid walked up and just walked over to 145th Street, went to the 5 and 10, went to the door, sit around the corner, went to the RKO Hamilton. You used to see Errol Flynn movies. Yes. Yeah. And nobody had a go with you. You just were free to just walk up and down the drive in Broadway, and there was no threat. There was no fear. You could do anything.

And what was the play that really made you, where they discovered you? Detective Story. Yeah. And so they then wanted you to do the movie. Yes. With Kirk Douglas. Yeah.

They wanted you to do the movie. Yes. With Kirk Douglas. Yeah. They had me and two other actors from the play in the movie. Joe Wiseman. Oh, you love Joseph Wiseman. Oh, yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, of course. He became Dr. No in the James Bond series. Yeah. Yeah. The only Jewish Bond villain. Is that true? The only Jewish Bond villain?

Joseph Weissman. Yep. I'm a big fan of his. I am too. And so they had you in the movie. Mm-hmm. And everyone was talking about you. Yes.

In that movie. And I think you were nominated. I was nominated and I was given the Best Actress Award in Cannes in 1952. So here you are, and I think you were 24 at the time. So this is like your career is exploding. And then what happens then? Well, I left Detective Story, which was a huge hit. Kirk Douglas, William Wyler.

No, no, no. Oh, you're talking about the play with Ralph Bellamy. Yep. I left to do an obscure play from people from Hollywood who had been blacklisted. I didn't know what the word was. I didn't know anything political. And I was very attracted to the director, John Barry. And so I did this play,

which lasted two weeks on Broadway and was a huge flop. But I met an actor, J. Edward Bromberg, who you remember from movies. In fact, for our fans out, for fellow Lon Chaney Jr. fans. Oh, he's in Son of Dracula. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Professor

Lazio. Yes. Boy. He had a good career as a character. Boy. Oh, yes. He was in a lot of stuff. He had a bunch of things. He started with a group theater. He was a method actor, you know. And so he was so nervous.

He was so nervous all the time. And I said, what's the matter with you? And he said, I'm being called up in front of the Un-American Activities Committee, and I'm afraid I'm going to have a heart attack. I've had a heart attack before. And he went to London to open a play and sure enough, he died there. And so I was asked as a young actor to speak at his memorial at the Edison Hotel. And I said, you know, he always said how frightened he was of appearing before the Un-American Activities Committee and that it would kill him. And obviously,

this is what had happened to him. And the next day, I was blacklisted. So, I mean, it went from, you know, one condition one day to another condition the next day. And how did you find out you were blacklisted? I went to an equity meeting, Actors' Equity. And the person in front of me turned around and said, you know, he was carrying a book that listed the names. Red Channels? Yeah, Red Channels. And it had my name in it. So, I mean, that was it.

And you weren't even a political person, you say in the book. No. Yeah. I learned to be, though. I became, because of those 12 years of being blacklisted and having a family of new friends who I loved and respected and had so much admiration for, that that was the place where I wanted to be. I wanted to be on their side. I didn't want to be on the side of Joe McCarthy. And so it was my college. It was my education. It was the best kind of college that anybody could

have as a kid. The Hollywood 10 members, Ring Lardner and Trumull and those people became friends, didn't they? Yes, absolutely. They were my friends. And we lived on Central Park West in a building, 444 Central Park West. And it was filled with all the blacklisted people on the first floor. I was on the seventh floor. And my new husband, I was his fourth wife. That should have been a sign. I know. I know.

So, yeah, it didn't all work out too well. Was it Edward Dmitrich who named? Who named Arnie. Yeah, your husband. Yeah. The famous director. So he was already named Edward Dmitrich. Arnie

was already named when he came to New York. Arnie Manoff, your husband, was a writer. Was already named. Yeah. But the one who named him. And he wrote the play that I left Detective Story for. Right, right, right.

Oh, yeah. And so what you were doing like plays throughout the Blacklist. Yeah, uh-huh, yeah. You were still able to do theater. I was teaching at Herbert Berghoff's to make money, to make a living. And he had been one of my teachers when I was at the neighborhood playhouse when I was 16, 17. So, I mean, he and Uta Hagen opened up their doors to say, you know, you can teach here, you can make a living here between plays, and they were just great. Well,

Uta Hagen was blacklisted longer than I was because she had an affair with Paul Robeson. You know, the thing about that period and talking about it is the insanity. And the insanity of Joe McCarthy, if you remember. Oh, yeah. You know, the off with their heads, the communist, communist, communist, everybody's a communist, go into whatever, teachers, coal miners, whatever they did. There were communists there that were un-American. And his lawyer was Roy Cohen.

His lawyer was Roy Cohen. Now, that happens to be the same Roy Cohen who was Trump's lawyer, Donald Trump's lawyer. Everything old is new again. No, but I mean, it's such an interesting... I woke up this morning so raging that Donald Trump is actually popular enough. Popular enough. It's a scary state of affairs.

No, but I mean, with my background Popular enough. Popular enough. It's a scary state of affairs. to have see roy cohen be donald trump's lawyer and advisor for the early part of his life and see trump with that same crooked crooked hillary crooked and and you know there's my my African American. You know, the insanity of it and entering into the same kind of insanity that I went through when I was 24 till I was

36, which is the 12 fucking you can take that out. 12 fucking years that I couldn that out. Yeah, no, no. 12 fucking years. You can say anything you want. That I couldn't work as an actress. Prime years for an actress. Yes.

I mean, it's so crazy. An actress, you hit 27 and you're playing Driving Miss Daisy. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, I lied about my age. I mean, I have it in the book. You know, like it was the grail. Like it was, you know, nobody should know because I'll stop working. Nobody should know that I'm past 30 because I'll stop working.

Oh, somebody said my birthday is coming up on the radio. Oh, quick call the press agent. Oh, listen on the radio. Oh, quick, call the press agent. Oh, listen on the radio. They could say my age. Oh, please. You know, I was so frantic. And as Roberta knows, you know, I had to get a passport to go somewhere. I went down to the, and this was while I was doing documentaries.

Yeah. I was doing documentaries. I went down to beg. Went down to beg for them to please change my age on the passport. Didn't they do it? No. Did you once go

to the mayor? Yeah, that's what I was referring to. You went to the mayor of LA. I went to the mayor of Los Angeles. And I said, they made a mistake on my driver's license. Mayor Yorty. Mayor Yorty.

Yes, I'll give you a little hug. That's funny. So you're willing to do anything anything to keep working and and so did the mayor of la change of course he did of course he did do you even what i what i really went to him for because we opened a branch of the actor studio there was to get rent free actor actor's studio forever and ever and ever. And that was the important thing. And he gave it to us.

And that was a... In West Hollywood. Yes. It was a really critical thing, you know, to have an actor's home, a place there where you could grow. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast. But first, a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

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You know, there's a funny story in the book too about how little the committee, UAC, knew about show business, how they would confuse tell Gilbert, the word agent confused them, they thought oh yes, that's fun yeah, well you know

I was in a play at the time and they caught up with me, and they served me. And I thought that they would ask me about my husband. I put the testimony in the book so that you could see. ask me, but my lawyer, Leonard Boudin, whose daughter was another kind of revolutionary and spent time in jail for it, he said, you have to be sure and back yourself up by taking the fifth, you know, just in case they ask you about Arnie or about other people. And so these idiots, these morons,

were asking me questions about whether Sidney Lumet directed me in something and was he a communist? No, he wasn't and and uh did did i have an agent uh yes were they were the agents part of agents for the soviet union i said no they're the william morris agency and and you know it went on yeah like that they had no concept of what a communist was and what a communist wasn't or what you know it was just just political grandstanding and you had a falling out with your husband over that because you didn't really you are not political you didn't believe in communism necessarily and well not only, but I thought that the work coming out of the Soviet Union, without knowing what happened later on, was just third rate.

Yeah. I mean, I was raised the Russian way in the ballet, which is still the most important and exciting kind of ballet that you can have. And with Chekhov and Tolstoy being my, to this day, they're the writers that I adore and worship, and suddenly see that nothing was coming out, nobody was writing. And then I heard that, you know, a woman poet was put in jail and this one was sent away to...

that they were treating their artists the way the Un-American Activities Committee was treating me. And I couldn't say those things to him because he had a faith. He had a faith in the goodness. It wasn't until Khrushchev said Stalin had been a killer, a murderer. This terrible sadness came over these artists who believed that there was a better way, that there was a better life, that there was more equality.

Not unlike what Bernie has been doing in this election. Okay, now I'm going to talk about Adam and Eve, and that's a story I've been kicked out of several times. That doesn't surprise me. Yeah. But go to adamandeve.com for a limited time only. You'll get 50% off just

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That's Gilbert, G-I-L-B-E-R-T, at adamandeve.com. Use code Gilbert at adamandeve.com. You'll thank me. So when the blacklist had ended, the blacklist ended around your lawyer did the committee a favor. That's kind of how you got off the list. The head of the House on American Activities Committee went to this kind of famous lawyer in Washington who took me on for nothing because I had no money. And the head of the committee went to him and said, will you do me this favor?

Because he was very well connected. And he said, I'll do the favor if you let Lee Grant off the blacklist. And the guy said, oh, okay. And I got a letter that said I was a good citizen. Now, there was something else during the blacklist that always amazed me. There was some kind of thing they can accuse you of

and that was being pre-antifascist. There was this thing. I think Charlie Chaplin got in trouble for that, for making fun of Hitler before it was okay to make fun of Hitler. You know, honey,

there was such insanity. They were such fools. But I mean, that's Trump. I mean, it's coming back. But no, but you put Trump on the Un-American Activities Committee, and that's what the guys are like. You do this, you are, you're a danger to the, I mean, that's exactly when he says, crooked Hillary.

Smearing people. Yeah, crooked this, crooked that. Now, okay, years ago, there was a beautiful movie actress, star, Grace Kelly. And she married a prince, became a princess. Poor baby. And you looked at this, this was a fairy tale, came true. Absolutely. But you knew Grace Kelly.

Yeah. Well, I was approached, you know, at that time, I was just starting to think of directing and just starting to think of this. And a friend of hers said, do you want to direct a documentary on Grace Kelly? I said, sure. And, you know, there we go, traipsing over to Monaco. and Joey went along my husband Joey went along with me because the cocaine

in Rome was so much better than cocaine in LA that it didn't make sense to stay home the piles on the coffee tables

so I was in Monaco by myself and it was you know Grace Kelly who had gone with my first boyfriend by the way, Gene, and left him to marry Rainier, was sitting there so cautious, so careful. What is life like? Lovely. It's just lovely.

Do you remember working with Clark Gable yes he was lovely um what about this one oh he was so nice and as the camera you know went off I said Grace you are so boring it's it's you know how can you know, what are you sitting on? What is, you know, why is, you know, you must have had, you know, exciting adventures and romances and things going on, you know. And she started to cry. And so one of the producers who was her friend came over and said, how can you do that? How can you tell her that?

And I said, but can you do that? How can you tell her that? I said, but there's a woman there. There's a person there who is completely being covered over. And so she said to me, I am so miserable. You know, the people here, the Monacans or whatever you call them, the royalty here from Monaco are so mean, the women are so mean. And I, you know, except for friends who come over and visit my American girlfriends, you know, it's just like I'm being watched all the time and everything I say is being, you know, and she said, and Prince Renier wants me to take one of the girls to go to Paris for her education next year. I really, I wish I could go back to New York. And I said, well, Paris, you know, at least in Paris, there's Joie de vivre. She says, no, all I want

is for me to appear with a royal thing across my chest, the sash across my chest. Nobody in Paris invites you for dinner. Nobody. It was something that David Susskind once brought up with with uh somebody who was french on his show to say how come you you people don't ask anybody to dinner you know you know what's wrong with you i mean it's a very it how closed parisian homes are interesting and not welcoming really and and so it was you know such an interesting kind of opening on her life to me to have the fairy tale life yeah that every girl in america

oh if i could only be the queen of monaco you. The whole world looked at her like that. Yes, the whole world. And she was just like a bird in a cage. Interesting. And she couldn't act. I think she did one film for Monaco. You think she missed acting? You think she missed her old life?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And the kids all seemed so troubled. You think she missed acting? You think she missed her old life? Oh, absolutely. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And the kids all seemed so troubled. You know, they all had... Well, there were a lot of troubles. Yeah. With those children. So that was her fairytale life.

Yes, that was her fairytale life. What was the big break, Lee, coming off the blacklist? Was it Peyton Place? The thing that really kind of put you back in the mainstream? Actually, you were working sporadically in television, too. I wasn't working sporadically. Once I had that letter saying that I was clean, saying that I was clean, all of these producers who had been sitting waiting for me to get the okay just were like, there, work for me.

No work for me. No work for me. No, London's calling. Come on over here and do a show here. I mean, they couldn't make up for enough time to give me the work that they had been wanting to give me. The David Susskinds and all of those producers there couldn't wait to get me on television. After 12 years. on television. After 12 years.

After 12 years. And then I was in the park. I was doing Electra in the park for Joe Papp which was a big, big deal because this was coming back to the theater in a huge

way. Electra was amazing. And I got this call from Peyton Place. And my agent just took it. I had another play to do for Joe Papp. She said, you have to take it.

You've got a daughter. Dinah was eight years old. What's happening? Your dog, Bella. In case I listen. Is that my dog happening? Your dog, Bella. In case our listeners... Is that my dog, Bella? Yeah, Bella. In case our listeners haven't figured it out, we're at Lee's home. We're not in the studio today.

And is she kind of sitting on the welcoming? Oh, yes. Because my sister-in-law, Phyllis, is home. Yeah, I think somebody came in. And my grandkids. So, I mean, I went from, you know, from not being able to work for all those years, except on Broadway,

to, like, people just, like, climbing over themselves to make up for what I'd lost in the past. And it was so moving and so generous. And you were pretty driven too, as you say in the book. You really wanted to make up for that lost time. I had no idea. I had no idea how driven I was. I had my face done

because the first offer of work I had was while I was still married. And I got an offer to do a play. It was a 26-year-old ingenue, and I was probably worn-out 33. I mean, the marriage wasn't working. I was upstate with three kids. Dinah was just like two at the time. And I called my husband, who was having an affair in New York, and I said, I got an offer for a play. First work I'd been offered in like two years and he said if you take it we're through and you know I looked at myself in the mirror and I thought I am through you know I'm I'm sweating in this hot Peekskill little house with three kids.

Got my first offer for a play, even, in, you know, two years. And my husband's, you know, walking out on me and having an affair anyway. And I called Walter Bernsteinstein who had written the front sure walter bernstein black another blacklisted writer who who was you know like my husband's best friend and i said walter help me i mean i'm not being offered anything anymore and this is you know a chance to just you know revive something and he called Arnie and Arnie said, no, I mean it. If she takes it, we're through. And so I went and had my face done

and became 26. It was amazing. It really was because it was too much for me at that point. Everything I'd loved and worked for was gone, and I was living with a man who really didn't like me.

And when that happens day after day after day, when you're living with someone who is critical of you, you start to spin out. You know what I mean? I was not in a good place. And that play saved me. What was the play? Roberta. Captains and Kings.

It's in the book. You talk about it. It was about Eddie rickenbacker was it oh the pilot yes it was about rickenbacker and it was an all-male cast including some actors old actors who were very pro-blacklist and and I was the only woman in it. I was kind of the secretary for all these naval old men. And in the second act, I get to stand up and say, Eddie Rickenbacker's right. Why don't you listen to him?

And that's it. That was it. That was your line. And by the time I came to New York, by the way, I thought I was in the best play in the world, which is that funny thing that actors do. They say it's a piece of shit, and then you go into it, and you say, I believe in it.

Now, we were talking, and we had to stop because we weren't on mic. Tell us the title of your book. I Said Yes to Everything. A terrific read, by the way. Came out in 2014, right? Yes. Great memoir, full of good stories. What does this mean? Well, you know, around the time of the 20s, Anais Neen had friends who were like these, you know, up all night, drink champagne, and one of them, it may have been Zelda, it may not, Her advice to women was say yes to everything.

And it hit a thing in me, say yes to everything. And then I thought, I have said yes to everything. One of the reasons why I'm here is because whatever came along, I never saw the dangers. I never saw that there could be any, what is the word? A pitfall or downside? Pitfall or downside. I mean, all I saw was the thing right ahead of me. I didn't see what could hurt me. And so anything that came along, I said yes to. And it was a kind of truth I recognized

about myself. And I still have it. I still put myself in danger all the time. Like by agreeing to this interview. I got a double take out of Lee Grant. I'm so proud. No, I mean, yes. Exactly. Exactly. And I didn't know you were showing up. These are holograms, Lee.

We're not really here. I just want to tell every woman out there, if you see me, say yes to everything. Terrible advice for women. Let's talk about you starting to work, really get busy. Around 1967 was a big year for you in the heat of the night. Honey, if you think I remember what year it was. Well, I have it on a card. And I gotta ask you

because I think Rod Steiger's name has come up on every other show. Oh, we talk about him all the time. So what was Rod Steiger like to work with? Oh, you know, there are geniuses that you work with. There are geniuses. You know, and Rod Steiger is one of them. I mean, there's a thing that I see whenever I see Heat of

the Night where Sidney slaps this southern man, this old southern man slaps Sidney. Sidney slaps this southern man, this old southern man slaps Sidney, Sidney slaps him back and the old southern man turns to Rod and he says, did you see that? And Rod says, I saw it. And it's like it had everything of that southern mentality of being a part of the old man, but seeing that kind of beautiful rage from Sidney that said, I can't believe it, but I saw it and that's a new world. You know,

and he won the Oscar for it, too. He was just astonishing. In 67, just since you don't remember the dates, you did a divorce American style, the Bud Yorkin movie, with Dick Van Dyke. Yes, on the way

to Do Heat of the Night. Oh, right. It was a day on the set. You know, they gave me a lot of work, too. Nobody ever discussed my past with me, you know. But you know the kind of work that Bud Yorkin and Norman Lear did. Oh, sure. Big fans. Yes.

And their positions, too. I mean, they're great progressive people. And so, you know, they were always falling over themselves to put me in whatever they were doing. And you did Valley of the Dolls. So that was a big comeback. And didn't that have like something

like a 50th anniversary? Yes. Just recently? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And now in Valley of the Dolls was Sharon Tate, who was, for people who don't know, the wife of Roman Polanski, who was one of the victims of the Manson killings.

Yeah. Yeah. And all my scenes were with Sharon. All of my scenes were either with the actor who played my brother or with Sharon who played his wife in the film. Well, you know, Sharon was wonderful in that film. I thought she was the best thing in it.

in that film. I thought she was the best thing in it. And she was pregnant at the time. I keep in touch with her sister. Her sister sent a book that she made of photographs of Sharon to put in your living of Sharon to put in your living room, to put on your coffee table so that she would never be forgotten.

And you know, her sweetness, her beauty, her vulnerability. It's a tragedy. I mean... So on that film, not on Delia's film. You know, it's interesting because I did a documentary about women in prison. It was the first documentary I did for HBO.

And one of the prisons I went to was in California where who was the Manson girl? Was it Van Houten? Leslie Van Houten? Was it Leslie Van Houten, Roberta? Do you know? There are a few of them. She's the one that keeps coming up for parole. Squeaky frog. Well, she wasn't involved in the Manson killings. Yes, she was.

Was she? I don't think she was one of the... Maybe not. Patricia Krenwinkel and Van Houten. Yeah. And so, you know, there I was going from Sharon to one of the killers there. You met her? You spoke to her? Wow. Oh, yes.

Wow. She's part of that. to her wow oh yes wow she's part of that and and and you know her whole mo is this sweet ingenue and the funny thing is she was i want to get out of here i i was i'm so sorry i you know i didn't want to. And to go from working with Sharon and questioning Leslie was, you know, such a bizarre leap. In the heat of the night, Norman Jewison introduced you to somebody who would play a role in your career, Hal Ashby. Oh, yeah. And we have to talk a little bit about The Landlord. Sure. Bo Bridges.

A movie I love. Yeah. And Pearl Bailey. Yes. And you're just terrific as Bo Bridges' mother. I know. She said, modestly. I feel because I don't, I feel that she is like a creation

apart from me. Yes, yeah. You know, and she's my mother and my aunt, actually. I mean, she's, you know, what I drew from was, you know, as soon as I read it.

They wanted Jessica Tandy, didn't they? Yes, they did. They wanted Jessica Tandy, didn't they? Yes, they did. They wanted Jessica Tandy. And I put on a blonde fur hat. And it's the only time I can remember saying I can play older. And not younger. Yeah.

I put myself under a top light and said, you know, I know this woman. You know, I know her. And give me a chance to get her out of my system. And, oh, I loved doing that. It's such a fun performance. I loved it. I watched it yesterday, and that scene with you and Pearl Bailey, where she gets you drunk. Yes.

And you show up with the fabric for the drapes? The whole thing is so brilliant. Terrific. It's such a brilliant script. More people should know about that movie. Yes. It's like the best kept secret. I made a great movie.

I directed. directed. The first movie I directed, Tell Me a Riddle, is like... What's the name of this one that we're talking about? The Landlord. It's like the best kept secret in the world.

I don't know why that is with some genius movies. People don't know it. I know it. Yeah. Melvin Douglas. The Tell Me a Riddle. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. It's very good. It's very good. We've talked about The Landlord on this show. We've talked about Hal Ashby on this show, specifically. We've talked about Gilbert and I. He's come up. We've talked about Being There.

We've talked about Coming Home. Being There. Harold and Maud. Harold and Maud. Yeah. We've talked about coming home. Being there. Harold and Maude. Harold and Maude. I said, I want to play Maude. And he said no. He did. It was right after The Landlord, you know, and we were friends, you know.

I read it. I said, oh, my God, what a part. Tell us a little bit about him. I mean, he, my God, what a part. Tell us a little bit about him. I mean, he had such a, his career burned so brightly. I mean, if you think from Harold and Maude and the last detail, one you like, Gil. Oh, yes. And coming home and the landlord and being there and, of course, Shampoo. What a run.

Yes. But. Bound for glory. What a run. Yes. Bound for glory. But he ran into, you know, those kind of studio stops. It was something he wanted to make in Texas, and he was making it.

And, like, the movie before hadn't made money and so I remember being at Warren's house um and and Hal driving up and saying to Warren not to me you know I want you to see the last stuff that I've that I've made on this this. I'm having a lot of trouble and I'm having trouble with the studio and I knew he didn't want me there. I knew that there was a desperation about what he was involved with at that time that he needed Warren's know-how for. And so I drove off, and about two weeks later,

he was in the hospital. And it was like from then on, the studio system had changed to a place where they were suffocating him and his instincts and all the genius that he had. He really was such an original voice. And he was like from Idaho, you know?

And he was a smoker. You know? He had that grass all the time and part of it was part of his vision. I mean, that's why everything that we did was like crooked.

You mean Shampoo or the landlord? Well, Shampoo was Warren's vision. But the landlord was Hal's vision. And it was such a funny, different way of looking at life and looking at things. So with Hal Ashby, he didn't belong there anymore. It was like in the new Hollywood. Was that the feeling, like he was out, there was no space for him there? Because I feel like that's something that you were afraid of all those years,

like just not belonging there. all those years, like just not belonging there. Well, you know, for an actor, as you know, I mean, my whole philosophy is one for them, one for me. You know, if I work on a film, you know, that has no money attached, that's fine. That's fine if it's something that I like, you know, but another will come along. Like the swarm. money attached, that's fine. That's fine if it's something that I like. But another will come along. Like the swarm.

I was saving that till the end, but it's right in the book. The bees are coming. The bees are coming. And Patty Duke was in that. Now, was Henry Fonda? Henry Fonda, too.

And Olivia de Havilland, who just turned 100, bless her heart. And how did they do the miraculous special effects in that movie? I never saw the bees. That's some cast that movie. They were poisonous bees coming from South Africa. And I was like the reporter in the trailer. Right. And I got the news first so that I ran out of the trailer and I said to Patty Duke, who was pregnant out to here,

the bees are coming, the bees are coming. And the director said, just, you know, try that again. Okay. The bees are coming. The bees are coming. Okay, that was okay. Just take it one more time. The bees are coming.

The bees are coming. This is better than the film. That's it. That's the one we'll use. You sure you don't want another one? You sure you don't want another one? You sure you don't want another one? Because I have more bees are coming in me. Any more bees you want, I can give you.

Didn't Michael Caine fall asleep while you were doing the scene with him? He fell asleep while the camera was on. Yeah. Oh, God. That's a good one. So he wasn't as afraid of the bees as you are. Who? Michael Caine. I was informing

the townspeople. I was informing the townspeople. Now, you were in another one of those films. You were in Airport 77. Yeah, another great cast. Jimmy Stewart, Jack Lemmon.

Oh, my God. Christopher Lee, no less. Yeah. You played Christopher Lee's wife. Yes, I did. And that's the one where the plane goes into the ocean. Yeah, the Bermuda Triangle. Not just the ocean.

This is not an ordinary ocean. That's right. It settles No! Not just the ocean. This is not an ordinary ocean. That's right. It settles at the bottom of the ocean. I actually like that one. Yeah? Yeah. That's nothing to admit. I don't know.

I don't like the swarm, but that one has its moments. Airport 77. How did Henry Fonda feel about doing this one? Honey, you know, all those big names, the Fondas, the Jimmy Stuarts. Jack Lemons. The Jack Lemons. Yes. They're put in a control room.

They're watching the action. They're the ones to say, how can we save him? How can we save him? They're the ones to say, how can we save them? How can we save them? They're not in those planes. They don't have the bees over their head. They're in the control room trying to save

the people who are being bitten and the people at the bottom of the ocean. Didn't they dump water on you? You talk about Airport 77 in the book. Well, I had a clause written into my contract. I'm scared.

That when the time came to drown, that I would have an understudy, that I would have a stunt person come in and wear my fall and get drowned for me. Okay, good. That I'm a star. Right. And certainly they can have somebody sit there and drown.

And when it came time for the drowning, it was so smug. I felt so proud of myself. Let everybody drown. I'm going to watch. I'm going to watch from the sidelines.

And so I saw these huge things, these vats, vats of water that's bigger than these rooms, you know, set up with water to go on to the people on the plane. And so the director said, okay, okay, who's first? And Olivia de Havilland said, oh, me, me. Let me be first. And so she climbed down into those seats on the plane and they let loose with this barrage of water hitting her and rising until she was swimming in it. She had to be in her 70s at that point. Yeah. She's 77. She just turned 100.

Yes. Yeah. And I'm standing there watching her, and she climbs out. and she says, oh, that was really good. That was interesting. And the director says, oh, you don't need to do it, Lee. We have your understudy to do it. And I said, oh, no, no. No, you know, absolutely.

He says, no, we have what you asked for, which is you. I didn't ask for it. I didn't want it. I didn't. I mean, it's, you know, I'm happy. I'm happy to do it. I mean, I was so shamed by Olivia de Havilland. And so, you know, I climbed down there and they let loose.

And so there, you know, there it was, paddling away. Paddling away on the old airplane. It's in the movie. In the movie. You know, we had big, expensive homes in Malibu and an expensive life. homes in Malibu and an expensive life. And, you know, I couldn't, you know, say, oh, you know, I'm above doing Airport 77 or The Bees Are Coming. You know, it was always one for them, one for me, one for them, one for me. And the funny thing is that most of the so-called fans that I meet on Broadway, I mean, they remember the ones that I didn't want to do, and they loved them.

Not the Hal Ashby ones. Right, of course. Well, we should also point out that you made a lot of good pictures in the 70s, too, like Plaza Suite and There Was a Crooked Man. Oh, tell us about Walter Matthau. Well, Walter Matthau married Carol Matthau, who was like my leader in all those years. She spoke like this, and she was Gloria Vanderbilt's friend, and she was wise, and she had a mirror in her hands all the time so that when she was giving advice to you, she was looking in the mirror. And all the time that I was still blacklisted,

she lived across the street from me on West End Avenue because I've always been an Upper West Sider. And Walter was simply adored by Carol. I mean, he left whatever wife he had and entered into this enchanted existence with her. And she'd say things to me like, oh, he mustn't know I shave my legs. How strange.

He must think they're smooth all the time, still looking in her mirror. And so, you know, Walter and I and Carol became, you know, really close buddies. And she set the tone for me. house looks the way my house does is because entering Carol's house was like such an enchanted place to be and it was something that I learned from her and and so when we got to do Plaza Suite it was an extension of the relationship that we'd already had. You know, I admired her so much. You guys have such chemistry in that movie.

When you're banging on the door, you're trying to tell her, promise you won't get hysterical when you tell her the wedding ring broke. Well, you know, we had that long relationship with each other that, you know, just fell right into...

I loved that movie. I wished that I'd played the middle one, too. I loved the girl who comes to meet the director she has a crush on, too. I loved

that, and I think I would have been amazing. Gilbert does a pretty good Walter Matthau, I have to say. Yeah. Open the door! Your wedding is starting! Open the door right now! You know how much

I'm paying for this wedding ceremony! You got it. He went into that voice. Yeah. Not bad, Gil. Now, there were some parts you did say no to, though, I heard. What?

Now, were you offered, was it Golden Girls or something like that? Yes. Yeah. Oh, you've been doing research. Yeah. I'm impressed. Frank's amazed whenever I know anything about any of the people I'm interviewing. Where's Dara?

I'm very impressed. Dara's giving me a thumbs up from across the room. Wow, somebody went to the library. So you said no to Golden Girls. Yes. But I would have said it at any time. I feel, I felt that I was free. I felt that I was free.

I felt I was free that I had either made or was going to make Tell Me a Riddle, that I was heading in an entirely different direction. I knew it was going to be successful, and that was the last thing I wanted. I did not, and that I was not ever ever going to be the star. That B was the focus. She was the

leading lady no matter what you did. Which part did you turn down? Was it Rue McClanahan's part or Betty White's part? I don't remember. Okay. Interesting. I don't remember, but I do know that it would have put me in a place where I would have been resentful. Right. Because, you know, at least whatever I did, I was the lead in whatever I did or you know and then your daughter was in a tv show that I think was a spinoff on golden girls yeah d-nest yeah I think it was maybe we'll have Darren with that

researcher but what do you mean what do you mean by a spinoff? A spinoff is like how Maud was a spinoff on Olden Family. They had this character, Maud. They had their next-door neighbors, the Jeffersons. Was Empty Nest? It was Richard Mulligan? Yes. Right.

And Dinah and Chrissy McNichol? Yeah. How did that come from Golden Girls? I'm showing my ignorance. I don't know either. Right. And Dinah and Chrissy McNichol? Yeah. How did that come from Golden Girls? I'm showing my ignorance. I don't know either. Okay. Well, we will look into that. I just read it somewhere.

Cross that out. Okay. You'd already done a series, I mean, at that point, too. You'd done Faye, which brings us back to the intro, which is why you gave the finger while you were on the Johnny Carson show. You should explain that since it was in the intro. All right. This I have to hear. Well,

I was offered this lead in this, you know, with great people, great people directing. Alan Arkin. Alan Arkin directing and great people.

You remember Faye? It was Lee's short-lived series where she played a divorcee. Oh, vaguely. Yeah, this one's... What? What? Look at this.

Empty Nest is an American sitcom that aired as the series was created as a spinoff of The Golden Girls by creator Susan Harris. Susan Harris. There you go. Was the one who... Thank you, Dara.

Who wrote that. I stand corrected. But, you know, the thing about Faye was that I loved doing it. What I realized was that I could not do a guest starring role on any of those series because I saw the trouble that people who guest starred on Fay had coming into a going family and to people who were used to working with each other who you develop a shorthand with the way you do on The View. I mean this kind of thing where you know you're coming into family. And I'd see actors come in and experienced wonderful actors floundering and so scared and so uptight. And so Faye was a very interesting experience for me.

And the one time that I guest starred on one of those sitcoms was Dinah's. Right, Empty Nest. Empty Nest. And it was a horrible experience. Oh, I'm sorry. Even working with my daughter, who you know it could not be more familiar it was like i was a stranger in somebody's apartment and i didn't know the rules and i didn't know where the fork was and the spoon was and i'd forget my lines i. I mean, it was such a lesson to me

on being on the other side of the talent place. Anyway, when I was in Fay, I showed up one morning, and my furniture was out on the street at the studio. and my furniture was out on the street at the studio. And I called Paul, who was one of the producers, and I said, you know, the furniture's out on the street. How come? He said, oh, they canceled it.

I'm supposed to be on the Johnny Carson show tonight to sell it, to sell Faye. And they canceled it in the middle of the run. And so I thought, as long as I'm here, I'll go to the Johnny Carson show and tell him that I'm not going to be on and the reason why. And so he came out of the studio and I said you know I'm supposed to I don't know whether you still want me to because this show is cancelled and and I'm gonna be on your show to sell it and I you know I don't know what to do and so he put his arm around me and he says, why don't you come on, come on the show and talk about it. And I was so, it like opened a door for me.

I was so sad and just lost, you know. And I knew that if I drove up to Malibu that I'd go on the side of the road and just cry my heart out. Because I was left. I was abandoned. And nobody told me. And so I did. I went on the show. And I gave the finger to the mad programmer.

You made a reference to the NBC executive. Yeah. And it suddenly became... Who's dead now, by the way. Oh, I'm so... That's okay. It's not okay. I didn't want him to die.

He died on a ripe old age. I just wanted him to be ashamed of himself. or a ripe old egg. I just wanted him to be ashamed of himself. Now, when your daughter was getting an Emmy or something... She got a Tony. Yeah, so she was getting the award, and her date, I think that he... It was Bruce Willis.

Yes. A totally unknown Bruce Willis. Yes. No, he was the bartender at one of the really chic places to go to. Bruce was at that time. And then later on, Bruce Willis would fire you? You had to bring that one up, huh? That's funny, dear.

You know, I don't have that in my cards. So what happened there? It was tragic, really. It was tragic for my husband because he had me on his hands. And at that point, my ambition was so driven. you know, the blacklist did something internal to me so that everybody really better get out of my way. I mean,

those 12 years of you can't do this, you can't do this, and living with somebody who said also you can't do this and you can't do this, and you can't act and you can't do this, gave me some kind of drive that verged on, I don't know the words for it.

It's not ambition. Obsession? Obsession. I was obsessed. And the first day of shooting, Joey got all the money together. He got the script. He got Bruce, who had been Dinah's boyfriend for a while. And Bruce was just on the cusp of, he'd really made it in movies and he was starting to fall back a little so he could use a good independent film

and this was a good independent film. And we shot it in Wilmington, Delaware, which is where Joey is from. Your husband. Yeah. On Lincoln Street, which is the Italian neighborhood, which is where the church is, which is where all his friends are. So he had brought a movie back to Wilmington, Delaware, starring Bruce Willis.

And he was producing it. And the first day of shooting, I lay in my bed and I couldn't move. And my friend Mary Bess, who was with me at the time, and my sister-in-law, they said, what's the matter? And I said, I can't move. I can't get up. And I called a doctor, and he said it was my thyroid.

And the reason that happened, because I just did it to myself again. I've just had, where I stopped taking the Synthroid without realizing that it would affect. I mean, it's why I have a little trouble with my speech now. Well, then I probably wasn't taking pills, but I had a thyroid condition where I started to zone out. I just was dizzy and outside the situation. I couldn't handle the situation. I was doing it, but I wasn't doing a good job. And at some point,

Bruce just got scared. It was very interesting stuff I was shooting, and it was charming. It was a hockey story, right? He was a hockey player. It was a hockey story, right? He was a hockey player. It was a great story. Great script. I was

the one who was not ahead of, I was behind. And so Bruce walked. He got scared. And what that did to Joey, my husband, I, you know, he was such a big shot. And it really, really hurt him. But if he had wanted to bring in another director,

I wouldn't let him. I really had no idea how driven I was. I had no idea until recently, really. You have a different perspective on it now. Yeah. And only recently did I realize all those things that I had to do, all the documentaries that I had to have, that I had to do, that I had to do, that I had to do, to make up for lost time, I guess. Sure. But there was no awareness. I just had the drive and the obsession,

and I was so good at it. I was so good at the good things. I want to plug some of those documentaries, too, by the way. Battered and What Sex Am I? and a terrific one, Down and Out in America about homelessness during the Reagan era, which is terrific and won an Oscar, are all available online on Vimeo, V-I-M-E-O, on demand.

Down and out in America is terrific and, unfortunately, still timely. Absolutely. And you, I was talking to Frank before about how you found out you were Jewish. Frank told me this story. It's in the book. I don't know if it's exactly how you found out you were Jewish, but when you were on the ship with the girl with the ribbon.

Well, my mother and father, I was, I guess, six. Six. Oh, I'll have to show you a picture of it because it's, you know, it's me in Paris at six. And I was on this, you know, great French liner, the Ile de France. And I saw these kids running past me and they were all these little blonde kids this girl my age maybe 10 maybe she was a little older with this beautiful blonde hair and and two little brothers you know running

past her and and so I said oh wait for me wait for me And suddenly the little boy turned and punched me in the stomach. And it was the first time that I felt pain. It was the first time that I could feel myself watching the pain go into my stomach and then be knotted and then start to get my breath back and then breathe. And the pain was so intense that watching it was more interesting than experiencing it because they were both happening at the same time, and I'd never been in pain before. And so I wanted even more to be friends with these children. And the next day I saw the girl, and she was standing and the wind was throwing back her blonde hair, and she was wearing this blue satin ribbon and I said

oh it said where Eau de France on it and I said oh where did you get your ribbon and she said they don't give these ribbons to Jews and so I went down to the stateroom, and I went into my mother, and I said, What's a Jew? And she said, Why? And I said, Because this girl has a ribbon, and it has the name of the boat on it. And she said that Jews shouldn't wear it. And so the next day I had a ribbon to wear, which I wouldn't wear because there was something too dark and too mysterious and too scary for me. And it was all those things when I was writing the book that were inside me, you know,

that you use as an actor, that you don't even know you're using, but that the memories are in some part of your body. Interesting. So you'd held on to that story for all those years until you wrote the memoir, and then you were able to access it. Yes, I accessed everything.

You make a joke about how you have trouble remembering names, and that it connects to the UAC days. But in reading the book, you remember quite a lot. Yes, it's the names, but the names... After my visit to the Un-American Activities Committee, I still had a job to go to, and it was directed by Sidney Lumet, and I remember somebody, a visitor, coming to the set, and it was the first time I said, oh, this is, will you introduce each other? That the names were erased from my head.

Oh, yeah. That's why she has a block. So I always said that when people met, you know, You introduce yourselves because it's gone. And I still have it. I have it when we're talking about people.

Sidney Lamed is another one of those names that pops up on this podcast a lot. We're big fans. Oh my goodness. What a genius. You work with so many great directors. with Norman Jewison, who's still around, I think about to turn 90. Joseph Mankiewicz, Arthur Hiller, who's still with us, Robert Altman, Arthur Penn, Mike Nichols, Weiler, we talked about.

That's quite a lineup of names. Well, what do you want to let this lady get on with her life, Gilbert? No, no. You can't leave. I have to say, her book is Lee Grant. I said yes to everything. And also the Facebook page, Roberta is, Taylor's here. Just Lee Grant on Facebook.

Lee Grant on Facebook. And what's the website? The website that you can find your stuff through if you're not going through Vimeo is karmicrelease.com. Karmic with a K, release.com. And, oh, and I got to tell you something. I got to call bullshit on this. You said you spent two hours in a hotel room with Warren Beatty, and all you did was kiss.

Lee is shrugging since there's no video here. So? Are you saying your meeting with Warren Beatty turned out differently? Yeah, yeah. I was on all fours. I had to five minutes. He's Warren Beatty I'm not going to say no to that

So anyway, this has been Gilbert That's all I remember That's all she remembers You want to tell the Dolly Parton thing real quick? Okay, she doesn't want to tell that It's in the book Before you wrap, I just want to tell the Dolly Parton thing real quick? Okay, she doesn't want to tell that. It's in the book. Before you wrap, I just want to mention a couple of Lee's performances in great films. Teachers, Defending Your Life, Mulholland Drive, Voyage of the Damned, which are terrific.

And Everybody Needs to See the Landlord. Yes, absolutely. Everybody Needs to See the Landlord. I wanted to squeeze those in. And so this has been Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. And we have been talking to a woman who says yes to everything and yet claims she didn't fuck Warren Beatty. I would fuck Warren Beatty. I would fuck Warren

Beatty. Ladies and gentlemen, the greatly grand. Yay! Lee, this was something else. Thank you for inviting us into your home and being so forthcoming and so open and funny.

Well, I just, you know, I love you. We didn't ask about the Charlie Chan and the Curse of the Dragon Queen. Oh, my gosh. We'll save it. We'll save it. We'll do another one down the road,

if you're willing. Peter... Ustinov. Peter Ustinov. I mean, it's like when you guys came through the elevator door. I mean... Peter Ustinov. Just like meeting Peter Ustinov.

I mean, how fun was that? I mean, to be with Peter Ustinov for all those weeks. And Roddy McDowell. And Roddy, who was such a great friend. We'll do it again. We'll do another one, and then we'll cover everything we didn't cover, which is a lot. So thank you, Roberta. Thank you, Matt Beckhoff.

Thank you, Taylor. Eddie Marino, Dara. And, of course, thank you, Lee Grant.