Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - 23. Brian Koppelman

Episode Date: November 3, 2014

This week, music producer-turned-filmmaker BRIAN KOPPELMAN ("Rounders," "Runaway Jury," "Oceans 13") joins Gilbert and Frank to talk about everything from signing Tracy Chapman and Eddie Murphy to their very first record deals to working with celebrated actors John Turturro, Martin Landau and John Malkovich. Also, Brian trots out a Gilbert impression, names all four "Sweathogs" and heaps praise on "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre." PLUS: Al Pacino channels Paul Anka! The "Death Wish" muggers make it big! And Ol' Blue Eyes demands a slice of pie! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host Frank Santopadre, and we're here at the Friars Club. Our guest today has worked with Gene Hackman, John Malkovich, Matt Damon, George Clooney, Edward Norton, Martin Landau, Dennis Hopper, and Brad Pitt. Martin Landau, Dennis Hopper, and Brad Pitt. And yet, the biggest thrill of his life was to work with me, Gilbert Gottfried. Welcome writer-director Brian Koppelman. Xero, spelled X-E-R-O, is the online accounting software and platform for your small business. With Xero, it doesn't matter if your small business is brick and mortar or online.

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And you can, too. Sign up for a free 30-day trial at xero.com slash podcast. That's x-e-r-o dot com slash podcast. And not only that, Xero randomly selects five people a month who have signed up to receive a mystery box of goodies. Zero plus from a company that already swears by zero. Zero. Beautiful accounting software. hunting software. Now, your father, Charles Koppelman, was one of the biggest music moguls of all time.

What the fuck do you do? That's a great... Yes. Thank you. What a welcome. What a welcome. We can talk about all that, but I have to tell you first, you've ruined Harry Chapin for me forever. Why? Because I had sex with him first? Yeah, because you – and it got cut out of when you were on my podcast because there was some kind of recording glitch, I think, from the great Beyond.

Chapin did it. But you told me you had this, like, murder fantasy whenever – Whenever he hears taxi? Whenever you hear taxi or cats in the cradle And the other night I was I mean if you think this is a low rung of show business The other night I was asked to induct Somebody into the Long Island Music Hall of Fame

Yeah And so I went out there And in this very moving moment for everybody else One of Harry Chapin's daughters got up And sang Cats in the cradle And all I could think about was you strangling. Yes.

Now, he's already gone. Yes. Now, all those people who wrote songs like that, like him and who was the other one? Jim Croce. Jim Croce. They all crashed in cars. John Denver's dead.

Yeah, yes. Well, he crashed in a plane. Well, Croce's was a plane, too. No, Croce's a plane, also. Oh, Croce was a plane's dead. Yeah, yes. Well, he crashed in a plane. Well, Croce's was a plane, too. Croce's a plane, also. Oh, Croce was a plane, also. Correct. Okay, so can I spread the rumor that I was supposed to get on that plane with Croce, and at the last minute, I was buying some chiclets, and I missed it.

Yes. Yes. I want to spread that as a popular rumor. Now, you would help your father find musical acts. Yes, that's true. Yes, I did. Now, who were some of the people you discovered? Well, I discovered Tracy Chapman

is probably the most famous person that I was the first person to hear. And others, you know, Eddie Murphy, his first record deal. But this all was a long time ago. Yes, yes. And my girl wants to party all the time, party all the time, party all the time. Yeah, but the true killer track on that record is Boogie in the Butt. Boogie in the Butt? How did you miss that?

I remember it. You may remember it, but how did you not feed that to him first? Could you sing Boogie in the Butt for us? The key line was, put the boogie in your butt. Put the boogie in your butt. Put the boogie in your butt.

See, that's a little too subtle. See, that's a little too subtle. See, I like songs that you have to think about, that you got to hear it a few times. My favorite line in the song was, do you remember the item that women used to wear? A culotte? Oh, sure. Oh, my God, yes. That was an ugly fashion. Well, in the song, they felt you should put a culotte in your butt.

Put a culotte in your butt? That was one of the tags at the end, in the vamp, during the vamp. Like actually wrapping up a culotte and shoving it in your butt? How would you do it? I don't know. I usually do it with jeans. Did we establish that your dad was Charles Koppelman, the legendary music producer and executive? Yeah, Gilbert Oakman.

Yes, yes. I'm not sure he actually said his name. Yes. It was like the first two words. I recognize them. Yeah. So you worked for your dad for a time. Say that again?

So you worked for your dad. Well, no, I was not working for my dad. I did that when I was in college. But you were at Tufts University and then? Yeah, I was at Tufts University and then? Yeah, I was at Tufts University and then, yeah, found Tracy Chapman while organizing an anti-apartheid

boycott against a pro-divestment rally. There was this movement in the 80s where these universities would invest their endowments in, just throw a dick joke in, by the way. 80s where these universities would invest their endowments in...

Just throw a dick joke in, by the way. As I'm talking about this... Let's throw a dick joke in. You're one of those Jew liberals. Basically. I was ready for you. Okay. Let's talk about something else.

It's your show. Do you have any dick jokes for us? Here, I'll tell you something you're going to enjoy. Here, I have an idea. Okay, let's have a joke. It's your show. Do you have any big jokes for us? Here, I'll tell you something you're going to enjoy, Gilbert. This is for you. I was walking over here and I was thinking, you know, I don't really have many stories that took place 30 years ago. Santa Padre is going back to when I'm 18 in college. But the other day something happened to me that I thought was worthy of talking about on here. And it is that, like you, I'm a skeptic.

You know, Penn is both of our good friends, and I'm an atheist and a skeptic. The reason you're a skeptic is because you're a Sagittarius. Yes. Yeah, I think that's the real reason. Yes, there's all, isn't it? So, but I'd heard, I have a hurt back, and I heard that there was this – all these self-help guys on various podcasts started talking about this therapy called cryogenic chambers. Oh, wow. Do you know what that is? Yes, that's where allegedly Walt Disney is.

That's where – yeah, but that's sort of like taking it to – but what they do now is they've come up with this thing where – this is what the pitch is. You go in for three minutes and they release in this little chamber an amount of nitrous oxide that's at 250 degrees minus 250 degrees Fahrenheit. And you freeze and it reduces all bodily inflammation and cures you of whatever it is that might be. Ah. Alien. And I heard about it and I thought, all right, that just sounds so outrageous.

And what if it worked? Because we're all fucking suckers sometimes. And I was like, I got to go check this out. So the guy I make movies with and I, Dave, we go, I look and I'm in Manhattan. There has to be, if there's cryogenic chambers in the world, there has to be one, you know, nearby. Oh, yeah. So there's one 10 blocks.

There's one two blocks from where we are right now. Yes. Is there a free one Gilbert could check out? Yes. It's 90 bucks, but they'll let you do it for 70, 45 the first time. Oh, yeah. So. Got a coupon.

But, so on the way there, we're talking to each other, going like, we have to be the biggest suckers on earth. We're really going to go and go into this thing, and it's 200 degrees. And we start making jokes about that mammoth movie, The Spanish Prisoner, where Steve Martin is this con man. And then we walk up, and you go into a building, a tiny elevator, a little thing. Because the therapy that cures everybody is always in some obscure building down at the end of a hall. Well, in every movie, it's in some abandoned warehouse where you go in an alleyway and it's state of the art. Let me say one thing ahead of time.

The name I'm going to say at the end of this story is so good and so perfect for the two of you that you're going to think I made it up or that you won't be able to come up with a better name. I'll ask you who this person should be at the two of you that you're going to think I made it up or that there's... You won't be able to come up with a better name. I'll ask you who this person should be at the end of the story. Penn knows it's 100% true. So we walk into the

cryogenic place and it is right out of Spanish Prisoner. There is a well-dressed waspy couple 60 years old putting their scarves on having just finished saying to the guy saying to the guy, I feel revivified this is marvelous and then the guy actually

says, like in one of those movies let me know about franchising opportunities, I want to open these all over the country, like as though they obviously have that guy rolling in whenever somebody comes to do their therapy so I say, oh I want to try this what comes to do their therapy. So I say, Oh,

I want to try this. What do I do? I'll sign these releases. It's going to be great. And they tell me you have to go in the back. You have to disrobe. Then you put on, you put on woolen mittens and clogs.

So, and then you go into the thing, a nude, but with mittens and clogs because of your extremities and the thing. But you get a little thin robe on first. Now, do you wear anything over your balls? Yes, you do. You can wear a cotton underwear.

It can't have anything on it. You can have one thing on it. Not even a codpiece. No codpiece. Wow. I'd be more worried about that than my feet. So going through the thing the whole time, I'm thinking, oh, is it real? Is it bullshit?

All these people do it, and how will I know? Is it going to be a placebo effect? So they start talking to you about afterwards what you're going to have to do. You walk by exercise equipment that you're supposed to afterwards to re-warm yourself up, and you can only stay in there for exactly three minutes and all the pseudoscience bullshit. And I go in and there's an outer chamber. And then in it, you see all the, like, the smoke and everything from cryogenics. And it just happened last week.

I go in and I have the little thin robe on. And, of course, there's this ice maiden from Poland who runs it and she's like, do you want this robe now or do you want this robe? And I'm like, I'll have this robe. I don't give a shit. I take off the robe and I'm standing there in my mittens and my clogs and they just open the little secret chamber

that you go in where they then turn it to 250 and it's horribly scary and freezing. And just as I'm about to go in, a guy bursts in and says, the VIP is here. This whole treatment's three minutes. That cures you of everything.

Everything. Three minutes. Cancer, anything. VIP is here. Can't wait. Do you mind stepping out? Wow. It's like getting dumped.

So you're there naked in gloves and clogs. And about to step in to 250 degrees. You're standing there with your dick in the wind. You can feel how freezing it is. And I go like, wait, you said it's three minutes. The VIP can't wait three minutes. And they say, this is a real VIP. Can't wait three minutes. So I'm like, what the fuck? All right. Okay. Okay. Fine. Put the robe.

So I put the robe back over the thing and I, you know, clonk out in the clogs and they open the outer door so the VIP can come walking in, in the robe and the clogs and the mittens. And I will tell you that when I tell you who the VIP was, you will understand that I then knew the whole thing was not only bullshit, but it was one of the great moments of my life. Who should it be? Who should it be? Who should the VIP be?

Oh, wow. It could be Tom Cruise. Is it a new agey kind of person? So much better than Tom Cruise. Oh, better than Tom Cruise. Not John Travolta.'s a tough one. It could be Tom Cruise. Is it a new agey kind of person? So much better than Tom Cruise. Oh, better than Tom Cruise. Not John Travolta. Not a Scientologist. By the way, so much.

The name for where we are is so much better than Tom Cruise. Joe Franklin. Milton Berle. Those would be great. Yeah. I mean, you know, not possible. And can you imagine? I'd pay money for that.

Shaggy Green. You ready? Yeah. Because neither of you are going to believe me when I say it. Well, we're in the Friars Club, so. Yoko Ono. Wow. Oh, no.

Oh, that's perfect. That should have been the first name I thought of. It's the best name. Wow. Wow. That should have been the exact first name. As Penn said, the number one rule of storytelling is you can never say, I'm going to tell you a name at the end. And it's going to be as good

as, but honestly, you can save that name to the end of the story. That was a big payoff. And it's one of those like, oh God, why didn't I think of that one first? I was trying to think of in the whole history of show business, who would have been better? Only Warhol. Oh, yeah. The only name I could think of

that would have been better. Was she naked with mittens? Yes. She had the little robe. She, of course, had the handler with her. Everyone else, they're like, Oh, yeah. The only name I could think of that would have been better. Was she naked with mittens? Yeah. She had the little robe. She, of course, had the handler with her. Everyone else, they're like, no one can go in. It's locked. But, of course, her, she can have the handler go in. It's all bullshit.

And then I will tell you, and this is the other part. So I step out. And then Dave, the guy I make movies with, and I, we stare at each other. And we fall out laughing. I got bumped. I got bumped. I got bumped for Yoko. And then she goes in there to get cryogenically frozen, which explains a lot, by the way. Oh, yes.

And she comes out, and the guy immediately put the sunglasses back on her. Wow. Because, you know, she has them. You've seen her walking around New York. Oh, yes. sunglasses back on her. Wow. Because, you know, she has them. You've seen her walking around New York. Oh, yes. She's one of those people, like Woody Allen, who has those recognizable disguises. Yes.

And so did you explain to Yoko that now that John is dead, she's pretty meaningless and is not a VIP? I just wanted to say, I tell you, every horrible, you know, you wonder if you're a bad person or a good person. And then staring at you, you'll go, oh, no, you just know what you are. Exactly. Because.

So one of our guests, David Steinberg. Who I love. You have a story, something that happened when you were 14. Oh, well, yeah, that's true. Sorry to go back again. We can go back. Well, yeah, that's true. Sorry to go back again.

We can go back. Yeah, well, Gilbert, I think I told you this, but David Steinberg, who is a great pal of my father's and sort of a godfather to me, really just one of my favorite people in the world, cue David Steinberg impression. Oh, yes. You know, in college, in college. David, how do you feel about this Mayor of Toronto, Rob Ford, David? Well, the Mayor of Toronto, he takes drugs. He's a big drug taker. And he's a drug addict.

It's a little like Alan Thicke. Yes. You've got the whole Canadian. Yes. They all have that scene. But the Steinberg was first. The Steinberg impression was first. He's established that long ago. He took you to see.

Well, yeah. So Steinberg said to me, he knew I loved comedy and I was really interested in this stuff. And he said, I'm going to take you to the city to see this guy. I'd never been to a comedy club before and he will either kill or die a horrible death. But either way, Brian,

he's a genius. And so he took me to the city. The two of us went to the old Carolines and, you know, Gilbert came out and I do remember

every moment. It was one of the, you know, signal moments as somebody wanted to do something creative for their lives. I mean, watching Gilbert do the thing that he did on stage that night where, you know, you did a really out set, but they were with you. You know, you did the character with the buttoning up the shirt. The Ben Gazzara bit? He didn't do the Ben Gazzara bit that night. Disappointing. No, he did't do the ben gazar bit that night um no he did this one this thing about ethiopia that night it was just a one-line thing oh oh i i i think that was uh you know i uh oh john kennedy died in my arms and Bobby Kennedy died in my arms and Martin Luther King

died in my arms and I just got back from Biafra and boy are my arms tired. I have never heard you do that pitch. That's great. Little Tony Orlando in there about the dying in the arms part.

But then, you know, as a 14-year-old, it did blow my mind. So in the middle of this thing where he was doing, like, a fully out, you know, late period Miles kind of a set, you know, he would turn his glasses in a certain way and then become that character who would say, This isn't funny. Yeah. This isn't comedy. And, you know, that's what I obviously, like, all I knew of comedy was Gabe Kaplan. That was basically Gabe Kaplan's act.

Gary, you could cross Gabe Kaplan off our invite. Yes. I loved Gabe Kaplan. I begged my dad to take me to see Gabe Kaplan When I was like 12 At the Westbury Music Fair For my birthday And he walked out And at 12 He just

It was all those jokes You know All set up punchline Sure Regular observational Jokes Except then He wanted to prove

Like all these guys When they get on TV On a regular show They want to prove They can work blue Oh yes So then he started Doing all these

Fucking masturbation jokes Interesting Which is a 12 year then he started doing all these fucking masturbation jokes. Interesting. Which is a 12-year-old, yeah, he did all these jokes about, I remember one where he compared having a wet dream, but he would call it

nocturnal emission, the proper, and he would do a whole routine like it was the Apollo launch. Oh. And he would go,

oh, prepare for nocturnal emission and this whole control tower thing. And I just remember sitting there thinking, oh, Gabe Kaplan's not funny. I remember. It was a horrible realization.

I think it was, I think George Carlin said, it's easier to go from being a dirty comic to a clean comic than from being a clean one to a dirty one. Sure. And let's all have a moment of silence for Marsha Strassman. Yes. Yes, Mrs. Cotter. Who went on to her reward

yesterday. We're having a good laugh over the death of an actress. I loved her. As a young boy, she was the greatest. Now, so we met there at that. We did. We met then, and then you and I met also. Everybody says they were at the Hilton that night of the Friars Roast.

But I was there, as I told, with Frank DiGiacomo, who ended up writing that piece. Oh, the Hefner Roast. At the Hefner Roast. Yeah. I was at the Hefner Roast with Frank DiGiacomo. So I saw that whole thing. And I met you that night. But you were nice.

And I went up to you and I said, oh, Gilbert, we have some friends in common. I'm good friends with Alan Havey, and you said, why? So Alan Havey turns up in Rounders? Absolutely, of course. There's a few comedians at that table. Lenny Clark. Lenny Clark's at the

table, absolutely, in Rounders. Saw him. Havey's been my friend since I was 19. Sweet guy. Was Josh Mostel there, too? He's a knock-around guy. I've had Josh Mostel in a couple of movies. I love Josh. He's a hilarious guy.

Have you had Josh on the show? No, we should. We should. He's perfect to have on the show. Now, when we met, did David Steinberg go, Breen, I want you to meet Gordon Burt. I think you and Gordon Burt will get along swimmingly. I think he might have said, don't talk to Gilbert. I know.

I think that he might have said, just't talk to Gilbert. I know. I think that he might have said. Just watch him from afar. Watch Gilbert. So let's talk a little bit. Your dad's in the music business. Yes. Oh, wait, wait. I just remembered something.

Because you mentioned Gabe Kaplan. Uh-oh. I did. And your father, didn't he produce albums for Love and Spoonful? Yes. Oh yes. Okay. What's the connection here? The biggest, his biggest hit. Oh God. Later. John Sebastian. That's exactly right. Yes. Very good. Welcome back to Otter. John Sebastian later, I mean they weren't

working together by then but yes later John Sebastian did. He did do the song for that movie. I have a feeling that's probably his biggest moneymaker. Oh, I'm sure. No, Do You Believe in Magic. Do You Believe in Magic.

Oh, yes, yes. It would have to be Do You Believe in Magic, and then Summer in the City, and then probably Welcome Back Third would be, as a publisher's son. But I'm just thinking, does he get paid every time Welcome Back Carter? I think he does.

John Sebastian? Yeah. Yeah. Because that's one of those shows that's always going to pop up somewhere. Well, that's quality entertainment. Can you name all the kids on Welcome Back Carter?

Sure, I can. Epstein, Freddie Boom Boom Washington, Juan Epstein, Arnold Horschak, and Vinnie Boom Boom Barbarino. Do you know? No, not Boom Boom Barbarino.

It's Freddie Boom Boom Washington. No, Vinnie Barbarino. Vinnie Barbarino. You didn't Boom Boom Barbarino. It's Freddie Boom Boom Washington. No, Vinnie Barbarino. Vinnie Barbarino. He didn't have a nickname. Well, but then he would do that song, Bar, Bar, Bar, Bar, Barbarino. That's true. As a riff on Barbarina.

On the Beach Boys. That Robert Hedges and what's his name? Sammy Petrillo. Oh, so I know who you mean. Ron Polillo. Ron Polillo. The late Ron Polillo. And Robert Hedges died in the same year.

So when they were doing the thing on the Grammys, rather than show two separate clips, they had a clip of them together. Wow. And it saved time. It saves two seconds. Yeah. It's important. You had like a clip of them together. When Polillo died, something very sad happened for us in our office,

which is, whenever we're asked to make cast, you know, you're always, when you're making movies, you're always making these cast lists,

and, you know, you, I'm sure you guys have this, there are just certain things you say to each other by rote, so whenever we have to make a cast list for, like, the butch lead of a movie,

one of us always, no matter what, says, well, obviously, Polillo. But now that he died, somehow that seems disrespectful. Before

it seemed fair. But remember, Ron Polillo, like so many of those people, like Urkel and all of those, and like Dustin Diamond, they all try to act really tough at one point to show their he-man.

Did Polillo go through a tough... Ron Polillo was in that boxing show. I don't remember. I think he... Celebrity boxing? Yes, celebrity boxing. Oh, he got hit, though. He lost.

Yes, yes. Oh, you're right. He fought another nerd. Did he fight Todd Bridges? No, no. He fought, like, I. He fought another nerd. Did he fight Todd Bridges? No, no. He fought, like, I think it was another nerd. A famous nerd. Our crack research team is working on it.

I remember Danny Bonaduce fought Donny Osmond. Oh, yes, yes. Which we'll ask Danny about. Which was, that was that celebrity boxing show. It was like a nightmare. Poor Ron Palooza. Yeah, but he fought, oh, who did he box? This is horrible. We're working on it do you think during those three years that palillo always somewhere inside of him knew

this is all it's going to be oh my god what do you think yeah i have a sneaking suspicion that he really thought he'd be like this respected Shakespearean actor because he went to acting school and everything. Is this a bad time to point out that I worked with both Ron Polillo and Robert Hedges on the TV Land Awards? He used to be a dry cleaner. Wait, who played Boom Boom? Oh, wait, Boom Boom was which one? Lawrence Hilton Jacobs.

Yes. Nice man. Who later on would play the father of Michael Jackson. In the Jackson TV movie. Yes. Very good. You are working overtime. And he was also one of the muggers in Death Wish.

That's correct. Death Wish had a lot of famous muggers. Didn't Stallone turn up in, or was that Bananas? Bananas. Stallone's on the subway in Death Wish. That's correct. Death Wish had a lot of famous muggers. Didn't Stallone turn up in Death Wish? Or was that Bananas? Bananas. Stallone's on the subway in Bananas. That's right. He's also a suspected mugger in Prisoner of Second Avenue with Jack Lemmon.

That's right. But the other muggers in Death Wish are mugger and rapist Jeff Goldblum. And in another part, he's just there for a second, Denzel Washington. Really? Yeah. He's a mug. Boom, boom, Washington and Denzel Washington. That's kismet.

They were originally going to call the film Washington. No idea. David Steinberg once directed me. And what did he direct you in? In Mad About You. Oh, yeah. I heard you guys talk about it on his show. Yes.

And he told me I had to run out of the room at one point. And he said, could you run a little faster? And I said, yeah, I guess I can run faster. And he goes, no, I don't mean faster. Could you run a little more graceful? And I said, I suppose. And then he goes, no, I don't want it more graceful. And then finally he sighs and throws his hands in the air and goes,

could you run less Jewish? Now, did we find out? I believe our crack research team, Dustin Diamond. Dustin Diamond! Wow. Perfect. Versus Ron Polillo.

I told you it was another nerd. So Polillo lost. And I remember Ron Polillo, and this shows you, this is a horror story. He had an eye the size of an orange and it was like bleeding at the end of this. And I thought, oh, you know, the fun to this,

I enjoy these horror things as much as anyone and this is just wrong. I didn't think doing this podcast would make me this sad. That's what we're all about. I'm just deeply, I think this is... Most people have killed themselves. I never knew what a clinical depression really was until, right, this must be what it feels like.

Then I have to walk around all the time feeling like this. I'm determined to ask you about your screenwriting career and your movie career. Ask me anything you want to ask. So how did you, you're working in the music business. Were you scouting talent? We talked about, on the phone, we talked about My Father's Place, a legendary music hangout in Long Island where we're both from. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was always, I always figured that's what I'd do, would be somebody who would go, because I did grow up, my dad was in the record business, as you guys said,

and I grew up going to recording studios. I spent a lot of time going with him and watching these bands, watching Barbra Streisand record her albums or Dolly Parton or all these pop acts. That's really what my father did, these pop music acts mostly. And I had a real affinity for it and I was able to recognize when a song would be successful. Even from a young age, I kind of, you know, recognize when a song would be successful. Even from a young age, I kind of, you know, if you pay attention and you're around it, you pick a bunch of stuff up.

So I figured that's what I'd do. And then in college, when I found Tracy and then helped make that first album that was so successful, it just felt like that's the path that I was on. And I worked at various different record companies. But something in it left me cold for a variety of reasons and uh it was really after the the the birth of my son i was i this may be a little too hopeful and sentimental for gilbert to handle i promise i'll throw on a dick joke great yeah tell me when throw the just look at my direction okay and uh but i realized like i wanted to tell my son to go chase whatever he wanted to chase.

As he grew up, whatever dreams he had and that I wasn't. And I was kind of miserable doing what I was doing. Because what I really wanted to do was this thing of finding a way to make movies. So my best friend and I, and I was at that time a degenerate poker player living in these poker clubs. I would go to work. I would stop home, see my wife and my son when Sammy would go to bed because I had to go watch bands all night long. That was my job. In between, I would just go play cards all night.

But I walked into this poker club, and one guy said to another guy, there was a Hasidic guy playing poker at the table and he and another guy at the table got into a fight and the one guy accused the Hasidic guy of cheating. And the third guy at the table said, come on,

Hashi's a man of God. And the guy A said, man of God, come on, he's the only Jew said, man of God, come on. He's the only Jew I know who took Germany plus the points. That's funny. That's funny. And a guy said that in the room. And I remember just going, holy shit, this is the movie.

And I called my partner, Dave, who was my best friend, and I said, I know what we should write about. And then starting the next morning, we started writing Rounders. And we spent a long time researching it and going to the clubs and writing stuff down. And, you know, lines of dialogue, ways people looked at one another, fights that happened. And we just started putting together this story. And then we met every morning for two hours before I'd go to work. Dave was tending bar. And I guess before he would go, you know, he'd finish his thing, come over to my apartment. Amy had cleared out a storage area under our apartment building.

It has slop sink and nothing else. And we sat in this room and wrote that screenplay in like five months and four and a half months or something. And it got rejected by every single agency in Hollywood. They all said it. One guy would say it's overwritten. The next guy would say it's underwritten, all that stuff. And then some kid manager, young guy, never sold anything, said, I think this thing is great, and I think it's a movie. And he got it to some producer, got it to Harvey Weinstein, who bought it.

And within two days, all those same agents called to sign us. Of course. And I got to say to them, but you said it was overwritten, and you said underwritten. I still don't know what those terms mean. to them, but you said it was overwritten. And you said underwritten. I still don't know what those terms mean. And that started us being able to have this other life making movies and

television. It's inspiring. Now, you had your dialogue recited by a ridiculous cast. I mean, Matt Damon, John Turturro, Malkovich, Martin Landau.

Yeah. I mean, an incredible cast. It was amazing. Malkovich. Martin Landau. Yeah. I mean, an incredible cast. It was amazing. Yeah, I was there every day on set. Edward Norton. Oh, that's right. Yeah, we were on set every day and a part of it. Sure. And Famke Janssen.

Yeah, good cast. Famke Janssen was in it? Oh, yeah. Oh, she was the girl with the dark hair. Yeah, she comes and offers herself to Matt Damon. Yes, I forgot about Famke Janssen. That's one of my favorite names. In fact, even in a small little part before she was famous,

Melina Kanakiridis, who then had like five years of her own show on TV, is in the movie. It was great. It was an amazing thing, and you thought, oh, this is what Hollywood's going to be like. Write a script, you're in production within a year. The movie comes out within another few months of that

you get the dream actors you thought making movies was like these movies about making movies you go in a room with your buddy you write the script and Matt Damon's in it there's a pile of cigarettes on the ground crumpled paper and next thing the movie premiere

exactly what I love about it too is it's one of these movies that teaches you something A pile of cigarettes on the ground, crumpled paper, and next thing, the movie premiere. Exactly. What I love about it, too, is it's one of these movies that teaches you something. I remember reading an interview with John Huston once, and he was talking about the gold panning scenes in The Treasure of the Sierra Madre. And how you actually learn to pan gold. That he thought if you could teach somebody something, if you could actually show it happening on screen. This movie teaches you. I don't know anything about poker.

But after I saw the movie, I felt like I had. But isn't Treasure of Sierra Madre just the greatest? Wonderful. Oh, yeah. I watch it every week. You see echoes of it in so many movies now. Well. Past that. Yeah.

Not to mention the Bugs Bunny cartoon. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah. They were always doing that in those Warner Brothers. Yeah. There's like, I think there was one, A Simple Plan. Sure.

Oh, yeah, the Sam Raimi movie. Yeah, all these movies that have people who are friends, who get money, and then turn on each other. So many of them. And also just even, I think, like the beginning, the panning for it, like the beginning whole piece of it, the way the ripoffs happen, what they're trying to do. I see echoes of it in all sorts of movies, just visual echoes of that movie. If people haven't seen it, nobody's disappointed when they watch it. I remember that movie when Houston goes,

You're dumber than the dumbest jacket. He doesn't dance. He does that little jig. It's great. And do you remember who the little Mexican kid is? No. Who is it? Robert Blake.

Oh, yes. That's true. Yeah. That's a young Robert Blake. Yeah. That was one of his first roles. Doesn't he hit a money? He hits Bogart up for money?

Yeah. And then later, I think he sells him a lottery ticket. That's right. That's right. What's your theory on what happened to him? What do you think happened to that guy? Oh, God knows. What do you think?

Oh, and then Robert Blake is the one who recognizes at the end the bags that Bogart had. That's right. And that's how, okay, what happened to Robert Blake? I think he was nutty to begin with. Yeah, right. That's obvious. Even on those Carson, when you watch him on those Carson episodes, he's very oddball, but he seems in control of the crazy. Oh, yes.

The Tom Snyder show, too, the one-on-ones. You'd really see the meltdown. More than Carson. Robert Blake, though, has said in interviews that he resented Johnny Carson because he knew after he was doing them that he was abusing him. That he was taking advantage of the fact that he had emotional

problems. And Carson liked that. Carson liked it. Oh, he'd have a fun nut on the show. Like, ooh, this guy's crazy. That's the name of that team. We're going to book him right after Gabe Kaplan. And you know what I think, too, with that murder where, you know,

where he just disappeared. You know, this is funny. A friend of mine took me to that restaurant and when I was leaving, the waiter chased me outside because I had left my sunglasses that were like a $5 pair of sunglasses. Did you murder him?

Yeah, no. I thought – so allegedly Robert Blake was able to leave a gun on the table and walk away. To chase you down for the sunglasses. Sure. away but i i chase you down for the sunglasses sure see i think that murder case was like when she died and the jury was like oh fuck her if he didn't kill her someone else would have fucked her but he did like when you would see i never understand when you see a picture of somebody and they're they're just such that you know so radically unrecognizably different oh yeah i think he had a troubled childhood from the beginning if he talks about it i think he was

troubled like gilbert says from the get-go yeah i don't think it was something that developed that hollywood but it's amazing when someone's i mean it's one thing to talk about palillo but when you think about where because palillo sort of even if he didn't know it was just a short thing, we knew. Oh, yes. But Robert Blake was the biggest star that there was when he was on that show. Yeah. Robert Blake was a titanic star. Well, first, everyone knew him first from In Cold Blood. And then Electric Light and Blue. Oh, yes.

I like that one. Yeah. Yeah, of course. In Cold Blood and then Electric Light and Blue which has you know one of those great 60s bad ending you know endings where it doesn't end happily

oh yes and then yeah then Beretta and he is like the guy he's the biggest TV star he can go on

any show he wants and then the thing just just goes away it's you know I have a great Robert Blake clip that I'll send you from YouTube. From what period of time?

Singing with Gavin McLeod on the Dinah Shore show. Oh, my God. Which has to be seen to be believed. Oh, my God. But getting back to rounders. I just remember I loved him so. I just did think Beretta, because I was probably seven or six years old, I just thought Beretta was the greatest human ever created.

And he was like the coolest guy in the world. But now if you watch it, it's so campy and horrible. Oh, it gets... But when you're a kid, it seems like... Horrible 70s shit. You know, that only the 70s could... Well, yeah, in the 70s, your toughest cops had a kookatoo on their shoulder or a lollipop in their mouths.

Those were the signs of... That's right. That's right. Those are the icons of toughness. And a wheelchair. And Ironside was in a wheelchair. Yeah, and we all wore a wheelchair. Was it tough with rounders to make poker cinematic?

Was that one of the challenges to make cars? You know, we worked with this great director, John Dahl, who, if you saw The Last Seduction or Red Rock West, he's just an incredible visual stylist. We were just trying to figure out – we were so fascinated by those people, by poker players, and I still think it's the case, even though the tournament competitive poker maybe cuts it a little. But they're like gunslingers where their people – I've always just admired so much – in a way, it's like comedians, people who can kind of put it all on the line the way that card players do. There's no guarantee that they can even eat next week or pay their rent next week. But something tells them, like, I have to pursue this, and I wouldn't have the guts to really do that. I love playing poker, but I would never have cashed it in. I mean, I didn't quit my job to start writing movies.

I was responsible about it. I was like, well, I have to do this in the morning for two hours and then I'm going to go to work because I have a family. These people are willing to just go like, I'm going to try. I think I can be this thing. I think I can beat you. And I think I'm smarter and sharper. And so that idea,

that's what we wanted to communicate. And then at that point, I wasn't directing that movie. So it was like, well, John will find a way to do that other piece. It was very important that the actors in it seemed smart enough, cool enough, aware enough, have the emotional depth to play it.

And then I felt like, well, it'll find an audience. We just wanted that movie to be like what Diner was for us. When we grew up, Diner, Harold Ramis movies, we would know them by heart and quote them, and know every single word, and we just wanted Rounders to be the kind of thing that other guys would feel that way about. So when that was the end result, that's it.

We got everything we wanted out of it. It was completely satisfying. Not a commercial success when it first came out. You know what's refreshing to hear you say? Because everyone else has that story that I wanted this movie made and I quit my

job and I was getting kicked out of my apartment and nobody... Put it on my credit card. Yeah, yeah. I put it on my credit card and I was about to get arrested and my kids were being thrown out in the street. But I fought. And it's like, here, you finally cut through the bullshit and go, no, no, I kept my job.

I'm not a fucking idiot. Well, it just seemed like, I'll tell you, you know, I was getting back to my dad. So because my dad is someone who really came up from the streets, I think he went to seven colleges and graduated none, and spent a life knocking around to finally find a way to get some success and worked with artists his whole life. I remember I went to him and I said, I really realized this is the right time. And I probably was thinking I'd quit what I was going to do.

And I said, Dad, I really think I need to be a writer. You know, the writers are able to access their inner thing and their distance between the thing. And, you know, I can really express the inchoate rage in me. And if I just – and so maybe I should – and he just looks at me. And he was just sitting on his bed, I remember. And he just looks at me and he goes just sitting on his bed, I remember, and he just looks at me and he goes, you want to write? Write.

Simple. And I said, yeah. So he goes, you're not going to quit your job? What are you, like an animal? I mean, how are you going to eat? Quit your job. And I thought it was great.

I was like, oh yeah, of course. I don't have to quit my job. I just have to get up earlier. Yes. Everyone thinks you have to quit. Yes. I don't have to quit my job. I just have to get up earlier. Yes. Everyone thinks you have to quit. Yes. It's so important I quit my job. If it's so fucking important, get up at six. Yeah.

Right? I mean, that's all. If I told you if you got up at six, you could get a fucking blowjob from Christy Turlington, you'd get up at six. Right? Get up at six. Right? Get up at six Where does the

Where does the great tell Come from the The Oreo cookies In the In Rounders Is it just something You guys You were searching for the tell

Because it's such a big reveal It was one of those It was one of those things I'm sure Like when you You told me how you write When you're on stage Gilbert We just knew

In that first scene As we were writing it That we wanted the Oreo We didn't know That it was for a tell We just knew We wanted that character When the Oreo, we didn't know that it was for a tell. We just knew we wanted that character when the guy comes to the door and looks through the

slot in the door. We wanted Teddy KGB to be eating something and sort of have a very satisfied look on his face. And so we just put, oh, he's eating Oreos. So we established the Oreos

and then we put them in a couple of times and then when we wanted to tell, we realized, oh yeah, it should just be the Oreo. Then we went back and then made the way he ate the Oreo significant each time. And then Malkovich added the ear to it.

And that's what actors, great actors, you've met some, Gilbert. What? know actors when they you know great actors um you've met some gilbert great actors will take your thing and they won't try to change it or go like well what if instead we use a grape but they'll take the thing you give them and then they'll make it even richer better deeper and that's like what malkovich did so like respectfully and nicely and hey i have this thought. And he just started like when he would open them, listening to them,

and just added and communicated to the audience what was going on in a much more clear way. And you worked with him again in Knock Around Guys. Yeah, I love that guy. He's so smart. Such a great actor. So now it's Malkovich. He's one of those people I always watch and go,

is this guy a nut in real life? Is he a pain in the ass? He's a brilliant person. No, I mean, he is among the very easiest people to work with. Wow. He's a super, super smart person. Read everything, knows everything in every newspaper, has read every book, speaks every language. He's a brilliant person. So he doesn't suffer if you're an asshole. He can give it, you know, if you're a jerk, he can really take care of you.

But if he senses that you're working as hard as he's working, there's nobody better. He just will give you everything he has. And he was invaluable to us. Like on Knock Around Guys, when, let's say, a producer was trying to, you know, oh, if, you know, the overtime or whatever, John would just quietly come up, quietly come up to us and say, that guy's lying. I can tell you if you do this, the crew will do that.

Just do that thing. And John constantly protected us all the time. That's totally the different, opposite image I always had of him. Yeah, of course, because he's so good. Yeah, and watching him in the movies, I always think, oh, this guy's got to be the biggest pain in the ass. No, he can, obviously he can access this incredible inner rage, and he's,

again, if someone, like, if you lie to John, I mean, you're dealing with this incredibly smart person with an enormous emotional range, but he's got a wickedly great sense of humor. And if he thinks you're all right, he's a delight. Don't fucking lie to that guy. Don't try to con him. And everything's fine.

And the acting range. I mean, he's played, to play a scumbag like he does in Rounders, and then you think about the character in Places in the Heart, where he's just the most sympathetic, the blind man. Oh, no, of course. There's nothing he can't do. Oh, and think about him character in Places in the Heart, where he's just the most sympathetic, the blind man. Oh, no, of course. There's nothing he can't do. Oh, and think about him in the Killing Fields. Right. Or Dangerous Liaisons.

And we could keep naming John Malkovich movies. But he's, and I just, he kills me in Burn After Reading. Yeah. My memoir. You know, you, I just had a flashback where you were talking about your father. And I thought, like, I like i also like had a father who actually worked for a living right who actually got his hands dirty your dad owned a hardware

store oh yeah yeah in brooklyn where like nothing but he knew he could you know there was no calling someone in to work on the apartment he would start bashing down the wall, rewire, plaster it, paint it. And he knew how to do this stuff and got next to no money. He had a scrounge for it. And it's so funny. Whenever I think, whenever I'm offered a job or I'm at a job and I'm thinking, oh, God, this is the worst. I can't believe it. And I'm thinking, okay, if I was sitting in the room with my father now, what would he think of me bitching that I got to tell a couple of jokes at a comedy club in Hawaii? Well, I think about it all the time.

No, the way in which people who do the things that we do are indulged. The worst part is that you become – you're not even aware of the fact that you're just living in a bubble. Oh, yeah. And that you're so protected and that you are – the things that feel like the – that's why in our country even – I mean there are 30 percent of the country living in poverty. But for the other people, if you take resources away for just two days, it's pure anarchy. And then you've seen it any time.

That's like there are at least about six Twilight Zone episodes where they shut the lights down, the Martians shut the lights down, and the whole town turns on each other. But all the things, sure, all the things that we think during the course of your day are an annoyance like oh what

if the construction happens out to the window and people can't hear our podcast perfectly oh yes we fly into a frenzy how about if tomorrow i took the fucking water away perspective perspective. Yeah, you want to write? Write. It's not so fucking difficult. So you basically said, I think I'm going to write movies, and within a couple of months, there you are with John Malkovich and Martin Landau and Matt Damon, and that had to be...

I mean, do you pinch yourself even now? Yeah, I have total awareness of how lucky the whole thing has been, 100%. You know, you're aware, again, not toiling away. I pinch myself every night. That's my dick joke that I was going to throw on you. I was going to say, is it? He's doing it now.

No, Juergens or Vaseline? Juergens or Vaseline? Now, you know, I just remembered when talking about that thing of working and not work i remember one time leaving the set of hollywood squares and it was a little longer that day well that's a shitty job yeah yes listen but i remember i had a driver to take me back to the hotel i'm sitting in the back of the car and the driver said, how was your day? And I started to go, oh, you know, this is like the worst. And then all of a sudden, the other part of my brain said, okay, you were driven to work, you had

breakfast, you told three jokes, broke for lunch, told another three jokes, and are now being driven back to your hotel. But you actually had the presence of mind to connect that right then? Yes, yes. I caught myself. Oh, that's great. Yes. I caught myself because I was about to say, like, oh, you know, you should really feel

bad for me. This was a horrible day. Horrible day is the center square. Yes. Right. Sure. He wasn't even lucky enough day is the center square. Yes. Right. He wasn't even lucky enough to be the center square. Let's talk a little bit about Ocean's 13 and working with

Steven Soderbergh. How did you, how did all this come to be? That was great. Which I just re-watched, by the way, and there's so many wonderful things. Oh, so that was two Matt Damon movies. Yes. Did you catch... The Godfather reference when Elliot Gould's on the bed?

We're not children here. I know you caught the Godfather reference. Okay, the Caddyshack one? The Paul Anka quotes. No. There are two quotes in Ocean's 13 from Paul Anka's rant at his band on that tape. How did you miss it? Frank, your entire job here is to catch that.

I'm so disappointed in myself. The whole reason that you are here. Paul Ankin, not Buddy Rich. That's the fucking way it's done. There are two. He says, first of all, he says, right to George Clooney, when I move, I slice like a fucking hammer.

Oh, I love it. Al Pacino says that, and he says, don't make a maniac out of me. Right off the Paul Ankin face. You missed them both. I am crushed that you didn't have that, Frank. says, don't make a maniac out of me. Right off the Paul Anka tapes. You missed them both. I am crushed that you didn't have that friend. I was so sure you would know. Is there a little caddyshack when somebody says, is it Scott Kahn, says, hey, how about a little something for the effort?

Yeah, and there are tons of Godfather references, but the Paul Anka ones, and I had to, this was, so because of Steinberg and my dad, I know Paul. And, you know, you're writing these things when you write a script, you know, you're writing it, you're putting everything in it, you're not censoring yourself, you just want it

to be totally entertaining. So we put the Paul Anka stuff in, and we gave Al the tapes to listen to, because we were like, this is kind of how your guy is.

Hilarious. So we give him the tapes to listen to of Anka at the band. He loves it. He's like, give me more of those lines if you can. So we write a few of them in there.

There are a few of them in there. My favorite is I slice like a fucking hammer because, you know, hammers don't slice. That's what makes it funny, Gilbert, in case you're wondering. I love that. But then I realized the movie was coming out and I had to call Mr. Anka because I couldn't have him go to the movie theater because, you know, he is one of the last of those genuinely tough saloon singers. Oh, yes. Part of one of the last guys around that worked intimately with Sinatra. Right.

I mean, you know, Sinatra's a runner throughout the whole movie. Our fascination with Sinatra. The handshake. And all that stuff. And so I had to call Paul, and I said, you know, I just want you to know there's an homage. You know, as long as you call it an homage. There's an homage. He was

just a total delight. Kid, I'm sure you took great care of me. That's great. Just what you want to, exactly what you want to hear. Now, what did you think of the first Ocean's Eleven? You mean the one from the 50s? Oh, yeah, yeah.

The rap Sinatra. Listen, I have an endless fascination with the relationships. You could put Sinatra at the Sands on any time, that album, and I'm going to listen to it all the way through. It's my favorite. I just wish I could jump into it, right? What does he say at the beginning? What are all these people doing in my room?

In my room. Yeah, in my room. Is that it? What are all these people? The line that he used every night. Yeah, what are all these people doing in my room? Yeah, but made it seem fresh. Every time, of course.

I think both Sinatra and Dean Martin used that line. Did Dean use that line, too? That's a drunk line. Yeah. Right. Yeah. What are all these people doing in my room? Right.

Yeah, but would Dean do it when he was performing on stage or as a guest? I think so. I've heard him do that a few times. So, like, I'm totally, you know, I think there were probably in lots of ways horrible guys to be around in certain ways. But to have just rolled with them for a weekend would have probably been, if you could have somehow hung in and just surfed behind them, you know, surfed their wake.

I always think, I always think they'll never really make an honest biography about the Rat Pack or Martin and Lewis. Yeah, it's very hard to. That one movie, I mean, I think Cheadle's great in that movie as... As Sammy, yeah. Sammy. But I mean, all of it fascinates me. You know, Brother and Lawford, like all of it is amazing. The movie Pack does show in a great way how they all decided to make that movie together. And it's great how like Lawford got roped in, you know, how they all sort of like did it for a variety of reasons and to be out

there. But did you guys, I'm sure you've read that, that, I don't know how to pronounce the guy's name, Bill Zemi. Oh yeah. The guy that writes, the guy that writes about late night TV. Yeah. He wrote this amazingly great, not Bill Carter, Bill Zemi, Z-E-H-M-E. He wrote this amazing thing about when, about Sinatra back then, like for Vanity Fair, and then I think it might have ended up in a book.

But he talks about this moment, which is, it was in the morning, and suddenly, coming across the, they all had villas around the pool in Vegas. And suddenly the doors to a couple of them opened. And Sammy and Joey Bishop and probably not Dean, let's say Sammy, Joey Bishop, Peter Lawford, one other of them started running across the pool.

And someone said, what's going on? What's going on? And Sammy said, Frank's up. That's great. That's hilarious. Yeah, what are they doing? Just waiting in there?

They're not allowed out until he's up? Or they're just sitting there. Can they order room service? What can they do? You know my problem with the Cheadle character in those movies is that, you know, they're doing their usual stuff. They're like Italian gangsters and Jews. You mean in the Sinatra movies?

Oh, in the Rat Pack picture? Yeah, yeah. You mean the Sammy Davis, not the Cheadle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, so they're doing their usual, like where they pick him up. I'd like to thank the NAACP for this award. And then they show him with, like, tears in his eyes. And I'm thinking, no, I don't think so.

They show that, oh, I think that's a good moment. They show that one moment where, no, he goes along with it, Sammy. And then, yes, they linger on his eyes for one second. But, you know, I don't think any of us can know what, do you think you know what Sammy was feeling? I don't think any of us can know. Do you think you know what Sammy was feeling? I don't know. My guess is Sammy knew he was getting pussy and money. I don't know. You really do? You think Sammy was okay? I think probably there were times that Sammy went back to his room. I mean, if you were

able to have second thoughts in the car after Hollywood Squares. That's a perfect analogy. You don't think that there were moments that Sammy went, Sammy, who by the way, you know, was the most talented of all of them, with raw, I mean, you know, the kid could dance, and he could play the drums, and the bass, and

sing, and all of it. You know that he ever went back, closed the door, and was just like motherfuckers. Not if Kim Novak was there. Oh yeah. That's a little mitigator. That's three minutes.

But then after that he goes oh boy that black joke that Dino made. Are you familiar with that story of Frank and Dino and the president of Hunt's Foods? No, please tell it. Oh, God. I'm going on me.

Let's go. The president of Hunt's Foods, his son or daughter was getting married, and he was having dinner with the parents of the in-laws. And so they were having dinner. And Frank and Dean are bombed out of their skulls and yelling they own Vegas. So they do what they want. And he asked them if they could hold it down a little because they were having a nice dinner there. And Frank and Dean beat the shit out of the owner of Hunt's Foods. He fell through a glass table, and it was in a coma for a while.

I think he lived with some problems for the rest of his life. And the creepiest part of the story, they said the president of Hunts Foods did not press charges. Awesome. Just horrible. That lets you a little taste of how creepy that really was. I know someone who was at dinner with Frank towards the end, like within the last four or five years of Frank's life. And they were at a restaurant in Florida, and they were bringing around a dessert cart.

Do you hear this story? Oh, wait. You probably know the person who, it was never told on a podcast or anything, but I mean, it's a story that is true, and someone told me, dessert carts coming around. And I guess there's a piece of pecan pie with a big thing of whipped cream on top of it, and Frank says, I'll take the pecan pie with a big thing of whipped cream on top of it. And Frank says, I'll take the pecan pie. And the guy says, great, Mr. Sinatra. Starts wheeling the cart away.

And Sinatra goes, Nick, I said I'll take the pie. And he says, no, no, no, this is only for show. We have to go back. You don't tell me. I want the pie. And everyone at the table is praying. Everyone immediately, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank. So I just give me the fucking pie. And they're all looking.

And, you know, the guy, the poor kid who's like Spider in Goodfellas. Oh, yes. Looking because he knows what we're going to all find. He knows. And he goes, I can't. And he goes, hey. So the manager was with Frank, just shrugs his shoulders like, well, you know, he wants the pie. Give him the pie.

What are you going to do? This guy says, I really don't think you should give me the pie. So he fucking puts the thing down. And it's not whipped cream. You know, it's Crisco. So it doesn't melt on the display card. It's a show pie with Crisco on the top of it. Lard.

And so Frank goes, good. And he fucking dips his spoon in. on the display card. It's a show pie with Crisco on the top of it. Lard. And so Frank goes, ah, good. And he fucking dips his spoon in it and puts the Crisco thing in his mouth. And the person who was there said, his face turned red. He goes, what the fuck is this?

What kind of joke are you trying to pull on me? Boom goes the cart. Boom goes the table. Just destroys the entire place. Says, let's bust it up. He's like, you know, 74. And he just destroys the cart. Boom goes the table. Just destroys the entire place. Says, let's bust up. He's like, you know, 74. And he just destroys the place.

Wrecks it. And so the person I know is like, are we all going to jail? What's going to happen? Are we going to jail? Because everyone's just standing around like in the Goodfellas scene. And Frank has just destroyed everything. And then the manager guy was with him. Just took out a wad of like $20,000 in cash.

And said, you know, how do we make this go away? Oh, wow. And you always walked with him. If you went to dinner, you had to bring like $20,000. Because you knew at any moment. One of the things that's always been super compelling to me to try to figure out, and you've been around so many of these people, is like what's lost in the latest is Frank was a great, great, great artist.

Like, the greatest of the great. Yes. I mean, you listen to In the Wee Small Hours. You listen to any of 10 of those albums and singles. He was able to communicate this incredible amount of depth and beauty and artistry and break your heart and inspire you. And you'd want to follow him to the ends of the earth and somehow he was able to tap into this what some essential thing about the

human condition like about what we are in the way that he would communicate these songs perfect pitch he knew he could tell you if the third bassoon was out you know and then somehow he's able to take that thing off like break your heart and then just go beat the shit out of some poor – What is it? Is it a life of being – is it just being that indulged? That's range. That's range. It's kind of like –

What do you think that is, Gilbert? But I was thinking it's kind of like that scene in The Godfather where James Caan smashes a guy's camera and then throws a wad of bills down on the ground. Oh, sure. Yes, sure. That's probably per the Don's instructions so that you don't get in trouble. You know what I think of, too? It's like that idea of separating

the artist from who they are. Yes. It's hard to do, though. Yeah. Isn't it? It's impossible. I am not going to admire this Leni Riefenstahl. She's a big talent.

By the way, a great eye for composition. A great eye for composition. Because she did all these propaganda films building up the Third Reich and I'm supposed to go, yes, but did you see that scene? I know. It makes Adolf look like a god.

But we're all able to forget. Like with Frank, like I said, I listen to his music, and I'm a rock and roll fan. I don't listen to that. But I listen to Frank all the time, and you forget. You're just swept away in this thing. So when you ask, does Sammy feel that way, I have to think there's no chance Sammy didn't know, because he was a bright guy, that he didn't know,

I'm selling out something kind of essential about myself, but I'm doing it. He had to know that he had made some kind of a deal with himself. Now, there was all this controversy when they cut off Frank Sinatra at the Grammys or something. I don't know if you remember that. And Billy Joel was angry about it. Everybody was saying. And I heard that Frank toward the end.

Like they said there was one roast of him. And he was up at a podium talking and he was rambling. And they sent out as a joke this famous black boxer, we'll say Muhammad Ali, I don't know who, and to like take Frank's drink away from him. And he says to this famous fighter, he goes, no, I am not through with that drink. When I am through with that drink, then you could take it away. And it's like he thought it was the waiter. Yeah. Frank Sinatra, ladies and gentlemen.

Yes. All right. So we won't ask you about caper movies. But I do want to ask you this. We're running out of time. Oh, wait, wait. Before we go. All right, so we won't ask you about caper movies, but I do want to ask you this. We're running out of time. Oh, wait, wait. Before we go, here's a joke.

Gilbert's choking on his own. His genius. Here's a joke that brings poker. Your movie rounders. This brings poker and a dick joke. Great. Okay. A guy's playing poker. A guy's playing poker.

He gets a call from his wife. His wife says, hey, it's late. Get home right now. And the guy says, I can't go home now. I've got a stack of quarters the size of my dick. And the wife says, well, take your 75 cents and come home. That's a great joke. Nothing to me tops the Paul Lynn joke that you told the other podcast maybe two weeks ago, I think, to Weird Al.

That's maybe my favorite joke of all time. That's made several appearances on the show. That may be my favorite joke of all time. In case anyone missed it. Yes, in case anyone missed it. Or in case anyone wants to hear what you have to say. Gilbert was

on Robert Osborne's show and he picked five movies. He was a guest and he was asked to pick a program for the evening and he picked

The Swimmer and Todd Browning's Freaks and The French Connection and a couple others. No, no, The Conversation. The Conversation,

excuse me. Those are all great movies. And the original of Mice and Men with Lon Chaney and Burgess Meredith. So we have to ask the filmmaker, besides Treasure of the Sierra Mountain.

The price of that is the Paul Lynn joke. Okay, you get the Paul Lynn joke. Paul Lynn was once... We're bartering now with guests. Paul Lynn Because I want to tell it to Yoko The next time I see her Perfect

The next time you're freezing naked Next to Yoko I promise if I see her again I'll tell her this joke If you tell her right now Wherever I am You'll knock on her chamber Yes

So Paul Lynn So Paul Lynn Why It's at least the third appearance Of this joke It's a perfect joke Come on It's a perfect joke. Come on.

It's a perfect joke. This is basically like talking to your old relative and go, did I ever tell you about the time? And I thought, yeah, you told me this 50 times already. So Paul Lynn was booked in this place to perform. And it looked like an old barn that was remade into a theater, a really shitty place. And he looks around and goes, this place smells like a cunt, I think.

I wish we had video so you could see Brian Koppelman leaping out of his chair. He just did the Walter Houston dance from Treasure of the Sierra Madre. Paul then hated the Jews, you know. I thought you were going to say the joke, which I bet you wouldn't have liked. He hated the Jews. And I have it confirmed. When I was on Hollywood Squares, the producer was the same producer. And he said that during the lunch hour, all the other guests would get together and be having lunch and, you know, telling stories and laughing.

And it would all be a lot of fun. And Paul Lynn would be bombed out of his skull. And he was an angry, angry drunk, and he would go, Oh, those fucking Jews. Hitler should have killed all of them. Those Jews are the reason I don't have a career. Did you ever meet him?

No, no. I wonder if... But I think you should write him? No, no. I wonder if... But I think you should write the TV movie. Because he was fucking one of these young boys, or the boy was fucking him. Well, Frank should write it. Frank's a writer. I'm working on it. Well, you have a little time.

No, no. You should. I think it's a great way to... No, I meant to... The Paul Lynn story. I meant to Good Rider. Whoa. That's not... Five movies? You want five movies?

How about Jim J. Bullock and the Paul Lynn story? Is that working for you? Well, you see, we can't say Polillo anymore. Give me five movies. And the guy he was with ran out. He panicked. And they say Paul Lynn actually could have lived had this guy called an ambulance. Is that... Oh, really? Yeah.

And the guy didn't want to be... Yeah, he panicked and made a run for it. And other people tell me Frank Sinatra killed Paul Lynn. Over at Beacon. Junior. Because Paul Lynn was in on the

Kennedy assassination, so Frank... What's awesome is the percentage of people listening who know who Paul Lynn even was. They do now. That's the best, like I have to say, that's like the best part of the Paul Lynn joke for me. I'm 48 and I barely know why the joke is good. People who worked with Paul Lynn don't remember who Paul Lynn was. I remember Merv Griffin always would have foreign uh girls with foreign accents well jaja gabor was the biggest but they would always manage to accidentally say something

risque and like uh they had no idea of course what that was the big thing. Like, they would go, oh, I went out for a blowjob. And then they go, oh, I meant dinner. And it was like, crap. I like to suck a cock. I mean, no, no. I meant I like to take a nap. I like getting fucked in the head. No, no.

I mean, I enjoy Hawaii. I don't know what Merv Griffin shows you or what. You're saying Paul Lind isn't really sure what the barn... You're saying he's not sure what the barn smells like. He has a feeling. From saying he's not sure what the barn smells like. He has a feeling from what he's heard? Yes. From what he's gathered?

Yes, from what he's gathered. But he doesn't have personal... It's surprising. I don't want to reveal something. I don't want to talk out of school. But Paul Lynn, I think, was gay. So that's the joke. The joke is,

how could he know that it smelled like that? I knew I liked it. I didn't know why. Now I know why. It's great. Because I think Paul didn't get a lot of pussy. Right. So then he, how did he know? He's not going to know. That's helpful.

You've helped a lot of people now. The Godfather 2. Okay, I'm of people now. The Godfather 2. Okay, I'm writing them down. The Godfather 2, I watched it the other night again. I watched two nights in a row, actually. It's not as much fun to watch as The Godfather, but it's every single moment. It's denser.

You know, there are great mysteries. You guys answered the greatest mystery about the movie when Danny was on the show, which, by the way, if podcasts, I mean, I think there are podcast awards, but the Danny Aiello episode is the best podcast anyone's going to do all year. And I say that as someone with my own podcast

called The Moment, by the way, with Brian Toppleman, which you can get on iTunes. But when Aiello answered the question, that's haunted me my whole... Because I watched that movie for the first time when I was a little boy. The question of why Michael Corleone says hello when it's not Michael Corleone who's killing him.

And Danny told you that he just made it up. Yeah. And Coppola was like, go with it. But the other thing that's always been a mystery to me is why Michael decides to have Fredo bring the two million. Because nothing has changed in his view of Hyman Roth. Very interesting. Nothing has changed. He goes down there.

Hyman Roth doesn't. He's figuring out that Hyman's bad. He hasn't. He thinks so ahead of time. He's not sure whether it's right. Why does he say, storytelling-wise, why is it nothing changes? He doesn't renegotiate the amount. Hyman Roth wants $2 million, and he has Freddy bring the $2 million.

And the last time I watched, the key is when they're sitting at that outside veranda talking, he wanted Freddie down there so he could look at him and figure out if Freddie was the rat. And he needed to give Fredo a job in this thing and find a reason for Fredo to come down there. When he gets Fredo down there, now he's sitting with him now, and you watch Michael's expression when Fredo a job in this thing and find a reason for Fredo to come down there. When he gets Fredo down there, now he's sitting with him. Now, and you watch Michael's expression when Fredo is saying, you know, usually you watch Fredo when he's saying, why couldn't we have been like this before? Why couldn't we, you know, and we know because we've watched the movie a bunch of times, the regret that Fredo has.

You see, when you watch it next time, don't look at Fredo during that scene. Only look at Michael during that scene. See, now that's the definition of a great film. Yes. No matter how many times you're always finding something. Well, you are, and you just watch Michael watching Fredo and you go, oh my God, the whole reason he has him there is he's going to figure this thing out

and it's breaking his heart, but Michael's gone over it. That's the moment when you know. Fredo's right there on the veranda. Michael knows everything. And then he's just waiting for the final piece. It's awesome. Why did Godfather III suck to high heaven? I left a fucking vacation early. I was on a Christmas vacation, and I came home early to see the fucking movie because I was on an island somewhere.

I flew home to see that piece of shit. He's the greatest director. Nobody's movies have made me want to do this. It's Francois Coppola, The Coen Brothers, Barry Levinson, Scorsese, Quentin. There's Spike Lee. He is the ultimate. The conversation is as good as anything else.

Just watched it. The two Godfather movies. Fucking Apocalypse Now would be the best movie. If you're not Francois Coppola, that's the best movie you've made, Apocalypse Now. It's one of the great movies. But boy, did everybody just whiff on that thing. It's kind of like I feel like no one in Godfather 3 ever watched the first two.

I think it comes down to something really simple. I've given this too much thought. I just think it's as simple as them not paying Duvall. Really? Think about it. The moment Tom Hagen's not in that movie, he's the anchor of those movies. The moment Tom Hagen's not there

to be the person looking at Michael for us. Tom Hagen processes the change in Michael Corleone. He's right from the beginning talking to him at the wedding. He's there the whole time. He's the guy in the second movie who's his change and is watching Michael change. And then when you don't have that guy who was the other connection to Don Corleone and

to Sonny, it can't work. Then you have to make, now suddenly you just make up the story. There's nothing tethering him to the world Mario Puzo created. Yeah, there are a lot of other problems. So I think that's like, yes, but I think they come from that. Right. Because then you have to invent the Joe Mantegna character. Right.

Then you have to invent all these other things. I don't think he had any passion for making it. He spent 25 years avoiding it. Yeah, it's a very difficult thing. And when you watch, you know, Pacino in Godfather 2 and 1, where he's so quiet and intense, where it looks like he's not doing anything. And then in 3, you feel like... He's chewing the scenery. Oh, yeah. You say, could you pull it back a little?

Okay, so Godfather 2 is one. I heard a great Pacino story the other day that I'm going to tell. This is not my story. It's Hank Azaria's story. But I'm telling it. Hank, I'm telling your story. Okay. He was once in a barn. And he said this.

You've got to get his area. You guys have to get Hank his area on this show. He'd be a perfect guest for you guys. Big fan. He's on the movie Heat with Pacino, and Pacino, it's late at night, and they're going to do that scene where he says, you know, a great ass. You know, Michael Mann, who's directing and wrote that movie,

is famous for working people very hard and for very many hours. And Michael Mann is also, like, you know, super cool. He's one of these guys, you know, the perfect leather jacket, the perfect whatever, even however old. And because they're working so much, you know, actors will often say to a director, tell me where I am in the story. And so Pacino says to Michael Mann, where are we? Where am I in the story?

And Michael Mann leaves. It's 3 in the morning. They're working. Michael Mann goes, well, you're coming from a place Bobby, Bobby just jackpotted you. You were jackpotted by Bobby. And now you've got Hank here. You're jackpotting him. by Bobby. And now you got Hank here,

you're jackpotting him. Because what you're trying to do is, you know, you're trying to put Bobby in a jackpot and the way you're going to do that is you're going to jackpot Hank here. You got him wrapped up in a jackpot because you got jackpotted by him and you're furious because they're out there, this motherfucker, jackpotting you. And Al looks at him and just goes,

I have no idea what you just said. That's great. Yeah. I have no idea what you just said. That's great. It's okay. Godfather 2, I would have to put a Coen Brothers movie on there. The Big Lebowski. This is not my five favorite movies of all time, just what I would want to do. What you would program. You could say Miller's Crossing, but I'll say instead.

I love Miller's Crossing. But I'll say Lebowski. I'm only going to do one from any filmmaker. I would say Goodfellas. Diner. Uh-huh. Diner, for sure. And I would love to end it.

End it early the next morning. A sentimental pick, perhaps. Something with Ron Polillo. No, it's between Bridge on the River Kwai, which is not the sentimental pick. It would be between that and Groundhog Day. Just something from Harold Ramis. But Bridge on the River Kwai is something that everybody needs to see, don't you think? But, you know, it's funny.

I was watching a documentary. It is hilarious. Yeah. Bridge on the River Kwai is... Laugh out loud. I was watching a documentary on the actual River Kwai, that whole thing, the whole story. Oh, really? Being these people, English and Americans, held prisoner by the Japanese.

And they were telling what was going on there. And they said outside of the concentration camps camps the worst treatment of anyone was those uh who are holding them hostage you know right before you know remember that scene when the guy gets put in that hot thing he gets put what do you call that thing that hot box oh yeah right before yoko went in there really yeah because he was gonna get in the hot box. And then, yeah. Okay. What other podcast covers Bridge on the River Kwai and Dustin Diamond beating the shit out of Ron Polillo?

Thanks for doing this, Brian. It was fun. Anything else you want to plug besides the podcast? Anything else coming up? No, there's a show that'll come out on Showtime but not for a while. We're starting to shoot

in January. It's called Billions. Dave and I wrote it with the journalist Andrew Ross Sorkin starring Paul Giamatti and Damian Lewis and really excited about that.

My podcast, The Moment with Brian Koppman. And then, Gilbert, I have to tell you, I didn't tell you this. When I was in college, they had this game show called Remote Control. Do you remember it on MTV? Oh, with Colin Quinn. Yes. And then, Gilbert, I have to tell you, I didn't tell you this. When I was in college, they had this game show called Remote Control. Do you remember it on MTV?

Oh, yes. Colin Quinn. Yes. And they went around to colleges to audition people to be on this game show. And at my school, Tufts, 300 people showed up for this audition. They picked three out of 300. I was picked. And the way I was picked, so they would call you up to the stage,

and you would get up there, and they would call you up to the stage and you would get up there and they would say, tell us something or do something. I was in the audience and they said, you know, Brian Koppelman,

come up to the stage and right from my seat, I went, stop, it's too much and stop, no more, enough

and I did it for, I just did three minutes of you walking up and onto the stage. I never opened my eyes, the thing and they picked me to go on the show.

So, thank you. Wow. Yeah. And that was in 19... I was doing Godfrey Impressions back in 87. So you owe me your career. The whole thing happened from being in remote control. That's right. So thank you. Wow. Do a little more Gilbert before we go. Stop. Stop.

It's too much. It's enough already. Enough. Stop. It's too much. It's enough already. Enough. Stop. It's too much. It's more than I can take. It's not even fair. It's not nice. It's beyond nice. Well, that was either Brian Koppelman or Gilbert Gottfried saying that that's enough. It's too much. Yeah, it's too much. and so it's too much yeah it's too much so we have been talking to brian koppelman and uh and uh i still don't know what the fuck you do but that's not important we've been talking to screenwriter Brian Koppelman,

and this has been Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host Frank Santopadre. If you like listening to comedy, try watching it on the internet. The folks behind the Sideshow Network have launched a new YouTube channel called Wait For It. It's got interviews with comedians like Reggie Watts, Todd Glass, Liza Schleichinger. Schleichinger, I've been friends with her for 10 years. One of the funniest people out there, and I still have a hard time with the last name, Liza. Our very own Owen Benjamin, that's me, takes you on a musical journey down internet rabbit holes and much more.

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