Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - 248. Austin Pendleton

Episode Date: February 25, 2019

Gilbert and Frank sit down with another sought-after guest, Tony-nominated actor-director Austin Pendleton, for an entertaining conversation about the randomness of success, the myth of comic timing, the plight of character actors and the secret of surviving in a business without rules. Also, Austin directs Elizabeth Taylor, replaces Dustin Hoffman, turns down Robert Altman and shares the screen with Jackie Gleason, Jack Lemmon, Paul Newman and Barbra Streisand (to name a few). PLUS: "The Muppet Movie"! The wisdom of Otto Preminger! The diplomacy of Billy Wilder! Groucho ad-libs! Orson Welles disses Stanley Kubrick! And Austin remembers the late, great Philip Seymour Hoffman! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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So whatever the sport, whatever the moment, it's never ordinary. At Bet365. Must be 19 or older. Ontario only. Please pay responsibly. If you or someone you know has concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. Our guest this week is someone Frank and I have wanted to talk to ever since we first launched this podcast back in 2014. He's a playwright, acting teacher,

a Tony-nominated and Obie-winning stage director, and one of the most prolific, versatile, and admired actors of the last six decades. You've seen his work in television shows such as Saint Elsewhere, Tales from the Crypt, Homicide Life on the Street, Frasier, Oz, Billions, The West Wing, and in dozens of popular films like

Catch-22, Tess, Short Circuit, Mr. and Mrs. Bridge. Where'd you get Tess? Is he in Tess? Guiding Tess. Go back to this part. Okay. We'll edit that. This is Robin Polanski's Tess.

Because I would love to have been in Tess. You and Nastassja Kinski. I'm so pissed off that he didn't ask me. You've seen his work in television shows like St. Elsewhere, Tales from the Crypt, Homicide, Life on the Street, Frasier, Oz, Billions, The West Wing, and dozens of popular films like Catch-22, What's Up Doc, The Muppet Movie, Simon, Starting Over, Guarding Tess, Short Circuit, Mr. and Mrs. Bridge, A Beautiful Mind, Finding Nemo, and My Cousin Vinny, just to name a few.

He's also one of the last surviving cast members of a movie we love to discuss on this podcast. Otto Preminger's impossible-to-define 1968 comedy, Skadoo. You bet. He's also known for his decades of work in the theater in both Broadway and off-Broadway productions such as The Diary of Anne Frank, Uncle Vanya, Toys in the Attic, Three Sisters, the original production of Fiddler on the Roof, and the current Choir Boys.

He's written stage plays of his own, such as Orson Shadow, about the working relationship between Laurence Olivier and Orson Welles, and has also directed numerous productions, including The Little Foxes, starring Elizabeth Taylor. In a long and illustrious and very busy career, he's worked with Meryl Streep, Barbara Streisand, Woody Allen, Jack Lemmon, Walter Matthau, Sarah Mostel, Jackie Gleason, Russell Crowe, George C. Scott, Billy Wilder, as well as former podcast guests Ron Liebman, Tony Roberts, Buck Henry, Keith Carradine, Whoopi Goldberg, and Peter Bogdanovich. Please welcome to the show an actor's actor, one of the hardest working people in show business, a man who says he still regrets turning down the role of Radar O'Reilly in Robert Altman's M.A.S.H., the legendary Austin Pendleton.

Thank you. I'm exhausted by that. Most people are. I hadn't realized how tired I was until this moment. Welcome, Austin. Thanks for coming out in the cold now now austin we had already started talking about this before the mics were on uh-huh so let's you're going right there huh yeah yeah going right there now i mean at one time i guess if someone had said to anybody, it's a new Otto Preminger film. It's a comedy starring Groucho Marx and Jackie Gleason.

How could that fail? Oh, even by that point, I understood in the business how things could fail. Yeah. Even in your first film. Even before Skidoo. You never know. You just don't ever know. So what was it like? Because that had so many. Well, the thing about Skidoo, the first thing I want to say about, first of all, I'll tell you very briefly how I got it. A man named Bill Cannon

wrote the script for it. He had first written the script for a film called Brewster McLeod. He wanted me to play Brewster McLeod, but I only had theater credits at that time. So people just said, no, he has never been in a movie. How are we going to finance a little indie movie he wanted to make and direct himself called Brewster McLeod?

So he wrote Skidoo, which is a charming script, and he wrote a supporting part for me in that, just so that I would have a film credit. And it was picked up by Otto Preminger. And so we made Skidoo. And certainly the best thing about Skidoo for me was getting to know Otto Preminger, Certainly the best thing about Skidoo for me was getting to know Otto Preminger. Because he taught me just about everything I know about film acting. And I liked him a great deal. And a few years ago at the Film Forum, you know, here in New York, they had an Otto Preminger thing, like a retrospective that went on for weeks.

And I was kind of free then. And so I went to just about all of them, including all the well-known ones, some of which I'd already seen. And a lot of little movies he made in the late 40s and the early 50s. And he was a brilliant film director. Skidoo, as we were

making it, was evidently a catastrophe. You just kind of knew on the set everyone knew including otto and but you know one one plows ahead sure and and you and you get it made and it um it was a relatively pleasant set that there's a kind of a sweetness that comes over the set of a movie when everybody knows it's not working and then it came out uh a few months later in and with a premiere was in miami as a fundraiser for the miami arts center that was going to be built during the premiere while it was going on it was going on half the audience left and and and and we met up at the party and uh people pretended they had seen the whole movie and you want to say no i saw you walk out we were you know

and and and nothing could be said and otto was a model of fortitude and humor during all this i mean it was like he he was famous for his temper and everything. But there wasn't that much of it on Skidoo. And then forever after that, he would invite me and my wife to his townhouse, you know, here in Manhattan, you know, for dinner, and he would screen a movie. One night, one unhappy night,

he screened Skidoo before it opened. And he said, no, this is terrible. You must understand this is terrible. And so it opened and it got the reviews we had all anticipated. And then a strange thing began to happen. Like I would be on the subway and bearded Columbia students

would come in the film department of Columbia would come up to me and say, hey man, you're in Skidoo. I'd go, yeah. And he'd go, oh, do you sing the term? Heavy.

Oh. And I mean, meant as a compliment, you know. Well, it's got cult status. Yeah. Some people dig it. And Friday, so it opened in early 1969 or something like that. It opened wide, as they say, in early 1969.

For 19, yeah, 1969, it showed every Friday night at midnight on the Berkeley campus in California. And I began to say, what is happening here? Because it doesn't work. Only a really talented director could have made it. Because it's, oh, and then by the way, meanwhile I turned down the part in MASH, as you said. So the first film Robert Altman made after MASH was Brewster McCloud. Right. He was not about to cast me as Brewster McCloud when I had turned down.

So the whole reason for all of this. And Altman's one of your favorite filmmakers. Yeah, yeah. And he sort of, and I met him at a party once after a premiere of one of his films. And he said, oh, yeah, you turned down MASH. This was about five years later. You're never going to work for me. And I've seen some of the films you have made, and I'm the only one who would have understood you.

But then years went by, and I met him again, and he was so sweet and warm and told me, well, effectively, he said, you've had a good career even without me. And I said, I just want you to know there's no professional decision I regret more than turning down a part of your man. Oh, how nice of you to say that to him. Well, I meant it. Yes, yes. I meant it. He's one of my favorite directors. I would have totally bought you in Brewster McLeod too instead of Bud Cort. Oh, I would have totally bought you in Brewster McLeod, too, instead of Bud Cort.

Oh, I would have totally bought me in. It would have been great. But so was Bud Cort. He was good. So these things work out. Yeah. It's funny because Otto Kreminger has a reputation of being like the biggest bastard. Well, he was famous for his temper.

I didn't see much of it. A little flashes. temper. I didn't see much of it. A little flashes. Very early in the shoot, we were filming, and well, the way I got the part, I mean, I was in Los Angeles for some reason, and he was shooting the early parts of Skidoo in San Francisco. So they said, would you fly? He wants to give you what was then called a screen test. And so I flew up to San Francisco, and he was having an all-night shoot. And I was supposed to meet him outside his hotel, and we would drive to the location, and before he started to shoot what he was going to shoot that night,

he would do a screen test. So we got in the back seat of his car, and it was that momentous spring of 1968 when everything was happening politically. And we talked all the way out on the ride. We talked politics. And we got to the location, and he said to the driver, take Mr. Pendleton back to the airport. He wants to get the red-eye to New York. And I said, wait, don't you want to do the screen test?

He says, no, no. I enjoyed our conversation. You have the part. Wow. Yeah. And what was Groucho like to work with? Just what you would think. Everything he said was funny.

None of it made its way into the film. That last shot is the two of you. That's a visual joke. Right, right. the film that last shot is the two of you that's that's a visual joke right but everything he said we had on on the night before we shot that scene in the robot which of course is poetry uh i mean that um we had dinner everything he said was funny every single thing he said was funny your first movie and there you are with groucho Marx. Yeah, having dinner. Pretty heavy. Everything you'd want Groucho Marx to be, he was that.

Totally, totally. But Otto and Groucho didn't figure out how to release the Groucho spirit into the movie. But that's true of just about all of us in the movie. People who are ordinarily brilliant are not very good in that movie. It's funny, and it's one of the great casts ever assembled. Yeah, well, it happens. Yeah. It happens. Yeah. It just happens. And Jackie Gleason?

He was lovely. I remember the first scene we were going to shoot was in the prison cell. When I was being brought into the prison cell, I was to share with Jackie Gleason. And Otto gave me the unforgettable direction. Now, in the scene, you must be frightened.

Because you must remember, if you were pretty, they would rape you. My God. And Jackie Gleason said, Hey, hey, Otto, stop that. He's pretty. So he was very affable, Jackie. And, of course, he was a marvel.

Even when somebody's not doing their best work when you're working with them, if they're a good actor, you can really act with them. Because even if the choices are going awry and all that kind of thing, they give and take. And he was certainly one of those actors. And he was very sweet, very patient. He didn't want to rehearse ever because he was depressed. You know, he was a depressed person.

Not depressed about Skidoo, just depressed. That's interesting. And famous for not wanting to rehearse. Yeah, and so he would stay in his trailer and he wouldn't rehearse. And so Otto, in the times we would have been rehearsing while they were preparing the lights for the scene and everything, taught me about film acting. So in a lot of ways, in the day-by-day way, it was a lovely experience, even though one knew it was doomed. What was that great piece of advice he gave you about treat each take? As if it were opening night.

I love that. Because he knew that I only worked in the theater. Right. Yeah. Well, that's an important thing he taught me, but he taught me, like, everything about film. So, here's a kid from Ohio who's sitting overwhelmed by his first Hollywood movie. And you're working with Otto Preminger, Jackie Gleason, and Groucho. Mind-blowing.

And I think Jackie Gleason, maybe because he hated rehearsal, on The Honeymooners, he would pat his belly when he forgot a line. Oh, really? And the others would have to jump in and save him. Well, he would come out of his trailer

and some of the scenes were quite long, like six or seven pages, which is long for a movie. And so he would come on and he would say to the dialogue director, okay, let's go over the lines

for the first page. So he would shoot it a page at a time. Yeah. And he wouldn't have learned his lines. But then, when we would shoot, he was totally in it.

He was a good actor. Yeah. And a generous actor. Well, most good actors are generous. He gave good dramatic performances. Soldier in the Rain. The Hustler. The Hustler.

Oh, brilliant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of depth to the man. And what do you remember about the late Carol Channing? Well, she and I were not ever in the same scene. So on that, I didn't meet her. But I was in a show off Broadway, a musical called The Last Sweet Days of Isaac by Gretchen Cryer and Nancy Ford. And that ran for about a year and a half.

And about a third of the way, it's basically a two-character show with a backup group. a two-character show with a backup group. And the actress in it, after about the first three months of the one, was Alice Clayton. And Carol Channing had worked with Alice Clayton. So she came to see it and we would talk,

we would have communal shame about having been in Skidoo. And she was very sweet and funny. Hilarious. Well, it's down to you, Michael Constantine, and Frankie Avalon at this point. Yeah. That's pretty much it. We had Frankie here.

I talked about Skidoo. How is Frankie? He's doing well. We had him a couple years ago. How is Michael? Do you know? I don't know, but we should reach out. Reach out.

We should have all the surviving members of Skidoo. We should have a party. A small surviving members of the fraternity. Yeah, yeah. We should have a party. A small and shivering group of people. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead, Gil. Now, you had a very funny part in My Cousin Vinny.

Yes. As a- Directed by our friend Jonathan Lynn. That's right. Who we had on the podcast. With whom I dined last night. Yes, he told me. Another guest of ours?

Yeah. And you played the defense attorney with a terrible stuttering. Well, that was in the script. Yeah, yeah. It was written that way. But, okay, now explain to the audience why you were so convincing. Well, first of all, I grew up with a stutter. And quite a severe one in my adolescence.

It began when I was about eight or seven or something like that, which is typically when it apparently does. And then what happened, because I finally went to a program about it in 1981, and they said that statistically, culture to culture, three-quarters of stutterers are men. Oh, interesting. I mean, statistically, through every culture. And also, if a kid develops it, three-quarters of the kids who develop it, it completely goes away when they become teenagers. But if it does not go away, it gets way worse, which is what happened to me. And acting became very important to me because I wouldn't stutter when I was acting.

So acting now to me still feels like a survivor mode even though – Yeah, I've heard you say it kind of saved your life that way. Yeah, yeah. And so I really didn't want to do My Cousin Vinny. Did you think it was – you said it was – you thought it was a cruel joke when he sent you this script. Not cruel. I said, is this a sick joke, Jonathan? Yeah.

Because I'd known him since 1967. You know Jonathan. Right. And he said, no, no, no. And then he insists we did not go to a Greek restaurant where he talked me into it. I asked him about that last night. He has no memory of that. He flatly said that was a lie.

I was wondering when you had to stutter for the movie. It's terrifying. Yeah. Because the fear you have if you're a stutterer and you've kind of overcome it is if you start to do it again, it will come back and you won't be able to get rid of it. That's the fear. It's a primal fear. You're afraid to do it at all because then it'll sort of some kind of neurological chain reaction. And so it was terrifying to do it.

Must be like a reformed alcoholic having a drink. Recovering alcoholic, I think is the word. Reformed Jew. Don't confuse those. Yeah, it's like, it's kind of like that. But alcoholism can be fun. That's not true of st yeah. So you were scared. But alcoholism can be fun.

Yeah. That's not true of stuttering. Yeah. So you were scared doing... I was terrified to do it. And because the first play I did in New York was Oh Dad, Poor Dad, Mama's Hung You in the Closet and I'm Feeling So Sad.

With Barbara Harris. With Barbara Harris and Joe Van Fleet. And that character, and I played that for a year, and that character has a stutter. And it was like it would get out of control some nights. I never knew when it was going to get out of control. It was an exhausting year. And the director was Jerome Robbins.

And about a few weeks into the run, it began to get out of control on some nights and really out of control on some nights, which would ruin the scenes. And so I told the stage manager, I have to quit.

So the next day, the stage manager called me and said, on the way to the show tonight, stop at Jerry Robbins' apartment. This is Jerome Robbins. The great Jerome Robbins, yeah. The famous perfectionist.

Uh-huh. And a brilliant, brilliant director. And so I went to his apartment on the way. And he said, so I hear you're going to quit. That you want to quit. He said, well, I can't stop you because it's an off-Broadway show. So you have a two-week out. But I don't want you to. I don't think you should out but i don't want you to i don't think you should leave

and i don't want you to leave and i said jerry i don't think you have any idea how bad it gets some nights he said we have a thing called a performance report yes i do know how bad first time i ever heard when you're in college they don't have performance reports. And so I said, well, then, I remember saying, your name is on this. It's some nights, it's really bad. He said, well, I want you to tough it out. If you don't stay in this show, you'll never act again. First of all, you'll be afraid to. And secondly, the word will get out.

So will you please stay in the show? We wouldn't be having our conversation right now if that conversation had not taken place. That's fascinating. Yeah. So I struggled with it the year, and gradually I found a balance. I found even to kind of use it,

which even though it would still be a little bit out of control, I was able to use it which even though it would still be a little bit out of control I was able to use it dramatically and have it not totally stop the performance in its tracks so it was a very kind of learning and a good person who's become a good friend of mine was in the show

by the name of Barry Prime a very good actor and I said I don't know what to do Barry he says I'll tell you what. And he gave me subway directions to HB Studio. You go and study with Uta, that'll help. Uta Hagen. And so it did.

And then in the fall, I began in the Lincoln Center training program, which was an eight-month training program for the Lincoln Center company that was going to begin the following fall with Elia Kazan. And in that training program were Frank Langella and Barbara Loden and Faye Dunaway.

Wow. All kinds of remarkable people. And Barry Primus. And, excuse me, and we, and so, so that was eight hours a day, eight months from September to May, and five days a week. And that overlapped with, oh, dad, poor dad,

for a few months. And so I learned a lot. There were classes in speech, and we had a wonderful speech and voice teacher, Arthur Lasek. And the acting teacher was Bobby Lewis you know who was a great

Broadway director and acting teacher so in all this year I got a lot of education and that sort of helped with all this problem but still

ultimately I did get after about a year in Oded they had to fire me it got to the point it exploded again and it got it just

was too much and yet what an act of compassion on the great jerry robbins part to jerome robbins exactly i could just kick this man out the door but i'm gonna do a solid i'm gonna do him a solid he saw something in you yeah right and there were all you know a lot of good nights in odette well if you're acting with barbara harrison you can't have a funny play by the way there's something really wrong with you. And Jovan Fleet, and everybody was

compassionate. Arthur Coppett plays a funny play. Yeah, funny, tragic, you know, surreal, real, a remarkable play. And Barbara Harris was good to you, too. We just lost her. I know.

That was hard. She was wonderful to act with. I mean, just like. What other advice did Jerome Robbins give you? Well, I'll put it this way. When I finally got fired from Oded, first of all, it was a relief. It was just so harrowing playing that play for a year. Sometimes it was great, but you never knew when the big black monster was going to come in. Even when you're acting with Barbara Harris and so forth.

So it was kind of a relief. But on the other hand, I said, I won't ever take a stuttering part again. That's what I said to myself. I said, I won't ever take a stuttering part again. That's what I said to myself. Because even with all this training I had in the course of that year, it would lurk and then it would pounce. But I said, the only bad thing about this, the fact that they finally had to fire me, is I'll clearly never work again for Jerry Robbins. And that's sad because I owed all that to him. Sure, sure.

Besides, he just was brilliant. Yeah, you can say it. Yeah, fucking brilliant. But then eight months later, I got a call, come in and audition for a musical that at that time had the name of Tevye. Uh-huh. And so I went in and he wanted me to read for the part of the revolutionary in it named Perchick. And I got so excited by this, because you couldn't find a more opposite role than Odad than that. And he called me, and he's won with actors five, six times.

And the last day, he said, oh, while you're here, will you read the tailor? And I thought, oh, that stupid part. I want to play Perchick. But he's asking me to read it I'll read it and I kind of read it like this and the next day I got the part Fiddler on the Roof

the part of Muddle not Perchick and I threw a fit to my agent I want to play Perchick she said I hope you're not seriously telling me that you're going to turn this down and I said no okay I'll do it. Can you imagine? Yeah, I'll do it.

And so two weeks after that, I'm running to a singing lesson, and I run into Jerry Robbins on Columbus Circle. He's running to some appointment. We're both late. He stops me. He says, okay, you took a part of Muddle, so now we're going to totally revise the part of Muddle.

And we're going to make it fit you. Oh, that's great. And then he ran off to his appointment. He said, what we're going to do is we're going to make him at the beginning of the show

a totally hopeless case. You can really do that. He's a really hopeless case that there's no chance that this guy would ever be able to. And then you're going to find the strength to win her, the approval of her father, played by Zero. Played by Zero Mostel, who at that point had not yet been cast.

Interesting. Again, a young actor, and here you are. Yeah. Gleason, Groucho, and now Zero Mostel. That's incredible. Yeah. Gleason, Groucho, and now Zero Muscle Cell. But the reason I was was my agent, a woman by the name of Deborah Coleman, said to Jerry, if you're going to hire him, hire him because he's in the Lincoln Center company. I'd been taken in the company. And if he does your show, he has to quit the Lincoln Center. So you have to make a decision tomorrow. I don't know

if any agent ever successfully said that to Jerry Robbins before or after that. But he said, okay, he can play model. So all these things come about in these weird ways. Well, I've heard you say that too in interviews. There's so much serendipity and so much luck involved. Yeah. And there's a lot of reverse luck, too. Sure. I mean, I've had strokes of profound luck, almost all of which I've just described to you. Yeah.

And then things where it just goes so foully wrong for sometimes years. I've also heard you say there are five movies and you go and you look at your body of work and you think there are four or five key movies. And if those had not happened to you, you wouldn't be sitting here talking to us either. You wouldn't have achieved that kind of fame, that kind of celebrity, for lack of a better word. Yeah, the big one was What's Up Doc? And ironically, one of the big ones is My Cousin Vinny.

And I say ironically. My Cousin Vinny is a masterpiece. It's a wonderful film. And Jonathan Linney, it's like perfectly directed. And it has those performances in it, the two leading performances that just make it take flight. And it's beautifully constructed. And here's a twist. In everything that you've done, Austin, and all of these wonderful people you've worked with, two of the films that are following you around for life are Skidoo and My Cousin Vinny.

And the one where you're stuttering, you went into acting to get away from stuttering. Yeah, right. And for years after my Cousin Vinny, people were reluctant to hire me for film. Interesting, too. Yeah, they said... They'd say, I loved you in My Cousin Vinny,

and that was code. That was code for, yeah, forget it. And people prominent in the business would say, you know, you're never going to be that good again. What the hell does that mean? I'm never going to say that to an actor, ever. Sure, of course. But it meant, if it could be roughly translated,

is from now on everybody's just going to want you to stutter. Because we know you do. So it's going to look dishonest if you don't stutter. This is a nightmare. Now, this was nothing that Jonathan Lynn had intended. Of course, of course. And Jonathan put me in three more movies after that. And Whoopi put me in a movie.

And Barbara put me in a movie. Barbara Streisand. And so, I mean, people rallied round. Barbra Streisand. Yeah. And so, I mean, people rallied round. But there was this big resistance. But still, I'm in my cousin Vinnie, which is a great thing. Well, do tell that story, too, of the woman who approached you and told you the story of her son.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, she had had, I mean, I met her 20 years after this, but her son was dying at the age of 13 of a tumor, a brain tumor. I think that's what it was in a hospital. It was very difficult and unbelievably horrible, of course. And he just loved to watch that scene in My Cousin Minnie. It would cheer him up. Well, how can you argue with that?

When you hear something like that. That alone would make it worth it. Of course. You know. Yeah. And on top of that, I'll let you see, truly great film. Well, now, ladies and gentlemen of the jury on January

4th of this year, my client did indeed visit the Sack of Suds convenience store, but he didn't kill He, he, um, uh, we, we intend to prove that the prosecution's case is circumstantial and, and, and, and, and, uh, coincidental. Thank you. And you're funny in the other Lynn pictures in Trial and Error. And even the small part in Greedy. I like that one. I like Trial and Error as much as I like my cousin Benny. Yeah, you have a way of stealing the scene, as you know. I try not to think of it that way.

And before I forget to ask, how is it like working with Zura Mustel? It was like being inside a Roman candle. Did he ad-lib a bit? Well, he never actually added lines, but he would do behavioral variations. They could euphemistically. He would do literally anything that came into his head. Not his head, his whole being. He would just literally anything that came into his head. Not his head, his whole being. He would just do things.

It's the big scene that we had together where I come and I tell him he has to let me marry his daughter even though I'm a poor tailor. And one night I had the big line. And the way I say it, it's me and his line is, but you're only a poor tailor one night while saying that he grabbed me by the balls. Oh my God. And did not let go.

And it could be said that an orthodox milkman would not do that. And he held on, you know. And then he would do almost equally outrageous things on other nights. But I loved him. You did. We had Gino Conforti here, by the way, who was the original fiddler.

Of course. How is he? He's well. We'll put you in touch. Oh, please. He's in L.A. and a lovely guy. Oh, he's a wonderful guy. Tell us the same thing, that Orson would just, Orson, excuse me, Zero, would just do anything. Literally anything.

For a laugh. Yeah, yeah. Well, sometimes it wasn't even for a laugh. It was just like he felt like it. Just to abuse himself, keep himself entertained. And then other scenes he could be amazingly poignant. Yes. Heartbreakingly poignant.

I think he's the greatest natural actor that maybe I've ever worked with. Look what I found yesterday in a local. I'm holding up the original album, the original cast recording of Zero. And then look at that, Austin Pendleton. It says Austin Pendleton. Right there on the album cover. Well, I'm glad it does. It's the only job I still don't believe I ever did.

It's right here. And you had a solo. Which was put in at the 11th hour. Yeah. Yeah. Miracle of miracles. I had a different song. And then they were looking for a song for Bert Convey, who ended up playing the part of Perchick.

And they were having trouble finding the right song for Perchick. So they had me sing a song in the first act and him sing at the beginning back to a variation on that same song called Now I Have Everything. Right. With a different lyric, with a different orchestration, with a different rhythm. And of course, and Bert handled that song extraordinarily well. And a woman said, Morris, didn't the little Taylor sing that in the first act? Was her to say. So Bert finally just said, would you just write another song for Austin? That's great. I was nice to them. Every night I hear people say,

didn't the Taylor sing this? And the fact that they were asking it as a question was alarming to me. But the, so they wrote, overnight they wrote Miracle and Miracles. I mean, I think there was a Gideon's Bible in Sheldon Harnick's hotel room. So he looked through it. About that. About all the miracles. And he wrote that lyric and Jerry wrote the music. I, and Jerry Bach wrote the music, and there it was. I would imagine the only record of you singing is the album, the only thing that remains.

No, there's an album of The Last Sweet Days of Isaac. Okay. That's a wonderful score. Okay. How's your singing? Well, it was good enough for those two shows. Okay. well it was good enough for those two shows okay and

and it went and I was in a couple I was in a musical by Arthur Miller about the book of Genesis Adam and Eve you know with a very ambitious score

by Stanley Silverman and lyrics by Arthur Miller and now a friend of mine Barbara Blyer and I we do a cabaret down at Pangea on 2nd Avenue.

Oh, well, we're going to come and see you do this. Yeah. That's great. Gilbert, we have to go. Oh, yeah. See Austin singing cabaret. Yes. We started them about two and a half years ago,

maybe, or something like that. Are you doing show tunes? No, three years ago. And we do a new cabaret. We do two or three new cabarets a year. And every one of those has four or five performances. So our next one, I think, is going to be in April. And tell us about Catch-22, how that came about.

That came about because I had done a play with Mike, The Little Foxes. I'd acted in his production of The Little Foxes, which had one of those Mike Nichols casts. I got into that by a fluke. Oh, and Bancroft. And Bancroft. George C. Scott. Yes, George C. Scott and Margaret Leighton. Yes.

And E.G. Marshall and Bea Richards and on and on. We love E.G. Marshall. We love character actors here on this show. He and I were friends forever after that. I then directed him in quite a few shows after that, most of them by Ibsen. And that was a great time. But I got it because he had offered it to Dustin Hoffman while they were making The Graduate,

and Dustin couldn't make up his mind, and Mike finally got it. So he was talking to the producer in New York who said, has Dustin said yes or no? This is how it was described to me. And Mike said, no, he still hasn't said, and we have to move on. Just find me another eccentric character actor. And my picture was in the paper that day, and the producer was looking at it.

He said, Austin Pennelly said, hire him. Another one of those weird things. Yeah. Yeah. And that goes beyond even being serendipity. Yes, it's just, yeah. Another one of those weird things. Yeah. Yeah. And that goes beyond even being serendipity. Yes, it's just, yeah. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast right after these important messages.

This episode is brought to you by FX's The Bear on Disney+. In Season 3, Carmi and his crew are aiming for the ultimate restaurant accolade, a Michelin star. With Golden Globe and Emmy wins, the show starring Jeremy Allen White, Io Debrey, and Maddie Matheson is ready to heat up screens once again. A Michelin star with Golden Globe and Emmy wins, the show starring Jeremy Allen White, Io Debrey, and Maddie Matheson is ready to heat up screens once again. All new episodes of FX's The Bear are streaming June 27, only on Disney+.

That's the sound of fried chicken with a spicy history. Thornton Prince was a ladies' man. To get revenge, his girlfriend hid spices in his fried chicken. He loved it so much, he opened Prince's Hot Chicken. Hot chicken in the window. This is one of many sounds in Tennessee with a story to tell. To hear them in person, plan your trip at tnvacation.com. Tennessee sounds perfect. Hi, this is Art Metrano, and I'm on the Gilbert Gottfried Amazing Colossal.

I thought it was a podcast, but no, there was no potty when I arrived. Oh, it's a pod, pod, B-O-D, cast. I'm on the Gilbert Gottfried, and his wifeara she's too pretty for him I can tell you that laughing laughing boom boom wow wow wow boom boom

wow wow wow gold Gilbert wow wow he's the man, the man with the mightiest touch The mightiest touch Just kidding, it's all Frank. And now we return to the show. You got to work with Orson Welles.

Yes, for two weeks in Catch-22. Yes, you were playing his son-in-law. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. He was. Don't call me dad.

He was. I just watched it again. He was irresistible. He was a bad boy. He gave Mike Nichols such a hard time. Oh, he was so bad. But, you know, he was unforgettable. And it was that he wanted

to originally make Catchphrase. Yeah, he wasn't happy that it was being made and he was only in it. And he would redirect the scenes just before we were about to shoot. Incredible. And they weren't as good as the way

Mike had directed them they were okay they're brilliantly written and you know and but he was and then we would sit in the desert in mexico all of us in a in a circle with those those high chairs you sit in and we would just throw the names of different film directors at him like throwing throwing fish to a seal, you know, and he would give his views. Like how he fired Fred Zinnemann from The Man From All Seasons. Oh, yeah, he was still glowing with pride

that he kicked Fred Zinnemann off the set, you know, in A Man From All Seasons. Right. And he would say self things where he would deprecate himself which fooled no one he would say of Renoir

I hear Renoir hates my films if I were Renoir I would hate my films too and he would say give me a fucking break and he he hated Stanley Kubrick.

He was almost fanatic. Why? Well, I think because Stanley Kubrick had learned how to game the system. Orson never did. Orson willfully never did. Right, right. And Stanley Kubrick had figured out how to make movies for Hollywood, and they're his own movies. And retain his individual stamp.

And he would, I'm going to teach a film course where I take a part in every element of the movie, paths of glory to show how not to make a movie. I mean, you know. Incredible. Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. And isn't it that Wells, if he was angry with the way the scene was going, he would threaten that he'd ruin the scene? No, he wouldn't threaten.

He would ruin the scene. Yeah. Manipulative was the word I think you used to describe. Actually, that word is so pale compared to what he would do. He would wreck the scene. Uh-huh. pale compared to what he would do. He would wreck the scene. He would say,

there's something wrong. I don't usually blow lines, Mike. I mean, there's something wrong with the scene. I don't think it's anything I'm doing. Incredible. Mike was endlessly patient, and we would finally get a take, and Mike would slip me a Hershey bar as a prize for the fact that we actually got through a whole take without Orson deliberately blowing his lines.

What was your very first impression of him upon meeting him? Was he gracious? Oh, yeah. Even when he was doing all this shit, he was gracious. He was gracious. It was hard to dislike him. Oh, you couldn't dislike him. But a real regret that I had is that I didn't see

a lot of his movies until after that. Yeah, that's interesting. I'd seen Citizen Kane. Then a few months later in New York, they had all these revival houses. One day I saw The Magnificent Ambersons and I thought, oh, I take it all back.

I wish I had seen this before I knew him. You'd said some smart-alke things about him. I said, really? I'm sorry. I mean, come on. I'm this young, struggling character actor, and I'm saying, I will miss him such as the perversity of human nature to the press. You know, I mean, come on.

Okay, and so then you got yourself an Orson Welles film education. Yeah, and I saw Touch of Evil. And Touch of Evil. I think all those films are as good as Citizen Kane. They're all wonderful. Chimes at Midnight. I love Chimes at Midnight. I love Ambersons, even though they recut it.

They took it from them and they recut it. But still, the basic. The genius is up there oh the genius is runs rampant and then you never saw him again never saw me i i that's a regret no never what that you didn't have a chance to make a personal amends yeah that i i'd love to have been a movie in a movie he directed yeah i would love to just run into him in a bar somewhere and talked with him right and told him how much I loved all those movies. You're both in the Muppet movie, but you didn't get

a chance to work together. No, yeah. That's true. What a shame. Yeah. And you met Bogdanovich in the desert, too, in his black suit. He was interviewing Orson in the desert. He had a black suit on. In 100 degree temperatures. And then

my agent submitted me for what's up talk. And Peter said, apparently, well, I just don't think he's right for it. He's more right for something like in Catch-22 that he played. And I said, tell Peter, who I'd never really met, tell Peter that I only did Catch-22 as a favor to Mike. If he believes that, he'll believe anything. But he said, okay, come in and read. And then I read and I got it. Yeah.

And you're doing that. Again, a fluke. So many flukes. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to hear you talk about that when you're interviewed. And we want to plug the documentary, too, that both Gilbert and I watched starring Austin Pendleton, which is coming out, I'm told, by the director. The hour, 20-minute one.

We watched the long one. Yeah. And it was fascinating. And you're so humble about so many things that happened for you. I was in the right place at the right time. Well, yeah, you have to be humble. Yeah. Almost everything I've told you is like

almost absurd luck then on the other hand i did a season that was not well received at the brooklyn academy of music and i was not well received in one play after another and for seven years i was i couldn't get work in new york as an actor on the on the the Broadway level or even auditions. Hard to believe. Yeah. So it works two ways. That's when you got the call for the Muppet movie, which you didn't. If I've got the history of this together. And your agent said, you can't turn this down.

It's a movie. Yeah. You thought it was a goofy part. Yeah. And I had a meeting with the director, Jim Frawley. And this was after my theatrical career had just collapsed. So I was not holding all the cards in this meeting. Somehow word of my catastrophe had not reached Hollywood.

If it were the era of the internet, that would have been it. But in the theater, I would try to get an audition for a show through my agent, and she wouldn't be able to get me the audition. This went on for years. And so I would call the casting director, whom I knew from before, or whoever it was, and she would say, I mean, this happened with several castings, and I would say, please let me audition for this. And she would talk a mile a minute. And you knew she'd been told under no circumstances.

And she said, okay, okay, okay. I'll bring you in. I'll bring you in. And so I'd go in. And on a couple of occasions, the director actually said, what is he doing here? Unbelievable. Yeah. It was like that.

And Lynn Redgrave said to me, you're in real trouble because that used to happen to my father, but that was London. And they don't take that that seriously in London. You keep working. But in New York, they're brutal that way. Right. And the fact that she explained, took the time to explain it to me actually kind of cheered me up. Good company, Michael Redgrave. Yeah, Michael Redgrave.

She would talk about when I was growing up, my father and John and Ralphalph by whom she met right ralph richardson and john gilgut that they would get these awful reviews but it was always understood that they'd they'd be working again the following season she said that's not what happens in new york you're gonna have a very rough time and it was very kind of her, although it was brutal news, she put it in this larger perspective. So I thought, okay, I'll just whatever. And so I started acting in a lot of showcases in which I got to play great Shakespearean roles that even in my heyday, I would never, ever have been considered for. Because it was always about the work for you anyway. It was never about celebrity or fame or anything. It was about doing good work.

Olympia Dukakis said that to me early on. It's gotta be about the work, Austin. The work. You tell your students that, don't you? Oh, yeah. I say, once you make it about anything other than that, you're just in for a crazy toboggan slide downhill.

Well, what's nice about taking the Muppet movie, though, if I have this right, is it turns out to be a silver lining because even though it was an unhappy set. Very unhappy. Yes. Which is a whole other thing because Frank Oz and Henson didn't cut into somebody else directing their characters.

It was tense. I bet. Sweet movie. And it was like, it was an edgy set. But Charles Durning winds up helping you at that point. To get starting over. Starting over. And Charlie Durning had been in Fiddler out of town playing a Catholic priest.

So you had a relationship. Yeah, and we got to be good friends on that. But then his part got cut in Detroit. Fiddler was in real trouble out of town. People don't realize that. It almost closed. I didn't know that. Nor did we know that Charles Durning was in Fiddler on the Roof.

That's wild. And they cut his part, so he was out. And then I started being in all these movies he was in. And Starting Over, which is a good movie to be in. That was Alan Pakula. So he was an Irish priest in Fiddler?

Not Irish. He was a Catholic priest. Yeah. What do they call it there? Orthodox. Whatever. He was a priest of the Christian religion. Wow. In Fiddler.

And what was it like doing What's Up, Doc? Great. That Howard Hawks tempo, that speed that Bogdanovich was going for. It was hard. It was very hard. Maybe the hardest. And Peter would like to shoot everything in completely in the master without cutting close-ups. So if anybody made a mistake, you had to start all over again.

And it had to be spoken at the speed of light, like a Howard Hawks film. Right, that's what he was going for. And so you would get in these scenes that went on for four or five minutes and everybody talked. And if anybody slipped a word,

you had to start all over again. And it was like, so among the things that that achieved apart from the fact that it's just effective on film was

it forged an ensemble we were all dependent on each other in these in the group scenes so there was not a hierarchy on that set I don't think there would

have been anyway I mean I mean Barbara is really she's a democrat I mean she there's no feeling of. I mean, Barbara is really, she's a Democrat. I mean, there's no feeling of, oh, I'm the star and all that. Can I sit next to you, Miss Grace? I wouldn't have it any other way.

And why don't you sit here on my right, Bannister? Now, if you could please move, Mr. Simon. But, sir, this is not, this is definitely not... I know, Bannister, this is not the seating arrangement

according to the place cards, but I think we can break a few of the minor social customs. Sir, I must point out to you... I must point out that foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Emerson. I beg your pardon, my dear. Ralph Waldo Emerson, born 1803, died 1882.

You like Emerson. I adore him. I adore anyone who adores Emerson. And I adore anyone who adores anyone who adores Emerson. Your turn. She's a delight, Bannister. A delight. And you're a lucky dog, aren't you?

No, but this is... Admit it. Admit you're a lucky dog. I'm a lucky dog, but... May I call you unit? No! What Howard means is that back where we come from, everyone calls me Burnsy. Burnsy. Burnsy. I like that. Burnsy. Help.

You guys are great together. You have nice chemistry in those scenes. And she used you again. She hired you again for The Mirror Has Two Faces. I love her. I would do anything she asked me to do. Tell us just about, too, and tell me if I have this right, you kind of all thought you were making a flop with What's Up, Doc?

That's what she told me 24 years later, The Mirror Has Two Faces. She said, have Austin come in at the end of the afternoon so we can talk. So I went in. The first thing she said to me, you remember what a piece of shit we thought that was going to be? After 24 years. That's wild. Which sort of leads to a larger question. I've heard you say that when you're in a comedy, you've really never been in a comedy where you didn't think something was going wrong or it wasn't working. Because it's so, well,

particularly on film, because the crew's not allowed to laugh while you're shooting a scene, obviously. So you're out of touch with what the effect of it is going to be. And as the guy, as the comedian said

when he was dying, dying is hard, but comedy is harder, you know. It is hard. It's just, it's all about precision in a way that dramatic scenes are not so completely about precision. Of course. Gilbert, do you find that? You've been in your share of comedies. Is it hard because you can't hear laughter?

You're not getting any kind of feedback? It definitely. It's easier in the theater. Yeah. You're definitely going, well, wait a minute. You're asking everybody. Was that funny? Yeah, right.

There's no way of knowing. It's like being in a void somewhere. And hopefully you're friends with the other people. The two hardest films to make that I ever was in were What's Up Doc and My Cousin Vinny. Really? Yeah. And for My Cousin Vinny was those other reasons too. But happily they both were brilliantly directed.

Do you think you have natural comic timing? Was this something that you had to acquire? I don't know what natural comic timing even is. You don't even know what it is? Does it not exist as a concept? It's only a concept. I see. It's like you take things in and you respond.

And if you're concentrating, you respond intuitively. But you're not thinking, how do I time this? Right. Yeah. Because you're good in comedy, is what I mean. You're playing the scene. Well, I're good in comedy, is what I mean. Well, I'm good in comedy because I'm a funny kind of person. How do you mean that?

I don't mean witty. I mean, I'm an odd person. Eccentric. And so, that means you're good in comedy. It's not because you have comic skills. In fact,

I have trouble in the opposite directions. People have said to me, I can't cast you in this role although you're completely right for it because I just simply can never take you seriously. Oh, interesting.

Yeah, that's been said to me a few times. I think someone asked Don Knotts why he, you know, what makes him so funny. And he pointed to his face and he goes, well, it helps if you look like this. Yeah, right. Yeah, he's totally right.

So if you think of people who are often cast in comic roles, there's an oddness just in the way that we look. Well, it turns up in the documentary, which we'll plug again, starring Austin Pendleton, which will eventually hit Amazon, I'm told, soon, by the director, Gene Gallerano. But there's a moment where, first of all, where Ethan Hawke says that he has so much respect for your craft, he says if Austin wasn't a little odd-looking or so eccentric, he could have been Brando,

which is quite a compliment. I liked when he said that. I like Ethan. I like Ethan a lot. I liked even before he said that. But then there's, just speaking about being a character actor, you know, Wallace Shawn,

your friend Wallace Shawn says in the documentary. Him I had drinks with the other night. Uh-huh. He's great. He's worked with Gilbert. Oh, yeah. He's a genius. He said, I have a better chance of being elected president than being cast to play the president. Yeah, yeah.

That's the best sentence about being a character, a comic character that I have ever heard. That's the definitive statement. Yeah. There's a great line about you are always getting cast as absent-minded professors. And as people who are scientists, and I can't understand the basic principles of science. I mean, my daughter is a surgeon. Yes. the basic principles of science.

I mean, my daughter is a surgeon. Yes. And I would attend her classes in organic chemistry. She went to Smith, and so I went up to direct a play at Smith just to be on the campus when she was. And I would go to her organic chemistry classes and I would say to her,

can I ask the professor a question? She said, if you do, I'll never speak to you again. That's subtle. Yeah, yeah. Because she was aware the question would reveal such a vast ignorance of everything the professor had been talking about that it would be a disaster. I watched you in one of those roles last night in Simon. Yeah. Terrific movie, but there you are with the scientific gibberish.

It's fun to know you don't understand what you're saying. Not a word of it. And then there was a show in the 90s or something called The Equalizer. Yeah, sure. Edward Woodward. Yeah, and I played a computer expert, and we were shooting a scene in a little apartment on the Upper West Side. And the actress was in some of the other scenes. She was lying down on the sofa in the next room, Lindsay Krauss.

And so I had this long computer speech about the computer and everything. And they got the take. And then she walks into the room, Lindsay, and she says, you know, that was remarkable. I almost believed you knew what you were talking about. That's the finest compliment. I didn't have a clue. That's great. Yeah.

I think there's a scene in the doc with your friend Bob Balaban, who we're hoping to have on here soon. And he says, the call goes out for the absent-minded professor, Austin, me, and Wallace Shawn. Yeah, right, exactly. It's almost interchangeable. I mean, you know, pick one of them. I think Gilbert's been in your boat. You're not, you would not offer too many roles as a president or a surgeon

or the head of a hospital. You're always cast as oddballs. I'm usually not an FBI man. Now I have a new ambition now that you've said that. Yes. By God, one day I'm going to play an FBI man. They bring you in for what? For the oddballs, for the weird substitute, the weird principal. See, when I auditioned

for Beverly Hills Cop 2, I remember, I'm forgetting one of the names now, the actor, he was in Clueless, and he played Jack Ruby. Oh, yeah. Jack Ruby. Yeah. When did he. Jack Ruby? Yeah.

When did he play Jack Ruby? In a TV movie. Dan Hedaya? No, no, no. Okay. Oh, God. Jesus. Well, it doesn't matter. Wait, wait. John Ashton? No.

This is going to kill me now. I think if you just breathe deeply. Well, tell the story and we'll come back. In the middle of some anecdote about ten minutes from now, just simply shout the name. Alan or Michael something. All right, I'm going to look it up while you tell the anecdote. Wait.

Wait. Go ahead. I'm trying to think of another movie he was in. He wants to think of it himself. Yes. Yes. Okay. Well, no, you'll have to look it up anyway we could be here a while if that's the case

so what happened wait a second it helps if you know the name of this guy not Ronnie Cox no I'm looking up the cast of Beverly Hills 2 we can cut out no he wasn't in Beverly Hills 2. I was in that.

Okay. Was he in Clueless? I think he was in Clueless. I think he was the father in Clueless. He was the father in... Dan Hedaya was the father in... No, the TV show Clueless. Oh, my God.

Leave all this in. Leave all this in. Leave it in. We'll leave it in for Austin. Austin, if you want to go out and take a walk. Okay, hang on. We're getting there. Okay.

Boy, oh boy. Clueless, the TV show. Nope, don't have it, Gilbert. Cast and characters. Donald Faison, Wallace Shawn, Michael Lerner. Michael Lerner. Oh, Michael Lerner. Good actor.

Oh, yeah. Good actor. From Martin yeah. Good actor. From Warren Fink. Yes. Yes. So when I was auditioning for Beverly Hills Cop 2 as the Jew behind the desk, I thought, okay, if I don't get this, it's either going to go to Michael Lerner or Brian Garfield. Oh, Alan Garfield.

Alan Garfield. Alan Gorwitz. Yeah. Alan Gorwitz. Yeah. Alan Gorwitz. Other good actors. Yeah. And I remember, yeah, because you know the actors. Oh, yeah.

You know the pool. Yeah. Yeah. Who you can be replaced with. Yeah. Yeah. You said they never put you in a Jessica Lange movie, and by that you mean something. Yeah.

First of all, she's a favorite of mine. Oh, she's great. And, yeah, the kind of movies she makes I don't tend to end up in. Let's put it that way. Serious movies about serious people. And about human – I mean, relationships among human beings rather than, you know, like androids or whatever it is. Right. Well, you turn up in A Beautiful Mind.

That's nice. But still, I played someone outside that whole realm of A Beautiful Mind. What do you want to play? Well, I get to play it in theater somewhat. A person with relationships and all that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. Now, you, and see, now I'm going into dementia. Oh, we got to Michael Lerner.

I forget the director who you said did this. He had a great way of reshooting the scene if you screwed up. He had a really nice way of putting it. That the director would say, you know, he would say, I respect you. Oh, it was Wilder. Oh, Billy Wilder. Tell us what Wild he would say I respect you. Oh, it was Wilder. Oh, Billy Wilder. Tell us what Wilder would say.

He said to me the first day we were shooting, this is the front page he said, I did a take and he said I respect your talent too highly to allow the American public to see what you just did. A wonderful line. I thought, I'm going to like

this guy. It's a great compliment and insult at the same time. Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. Not to mention what he said upon meeting you. Do you recall? Which was what? He said, before I die, I promised myself. Yes, he did say that.

Imagine. Yeah. Tell our listeners what he said. No, you say it. I'm embarrassing him. He said that Viennese charm, yeah right or austria it's like you can't he when you take on the air to start quoting the compliments that have been paid he said to austin at the end i promised myself that i would work with you before i died what he what have you seen you in? Something on stage. Some plays. Something on stage.

Yeah. And what was that set like? I understand Lemon and Matthau were feuding with Wilder a little bit. They were unhappy with him, and he was unhappy with them. How interesting. It all turned out fine. I mean, I don't know what. And then they both worked with him again.

Buddy-buddy. Yeah. One more. So, I mean, obviously, whatever that was, was not very. Such great history there. Very serious. But you got to befriend Carol Burnett. Oh, sure.

We played Scrabble all the time. That's great. We played Scrabble. She, that was wonderful. But Matthau and Lemon got along with each other. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Totally.

They were having issues with Billy billy yeah and he with them it wasn't like poisoning the whole set or anything the set was very professional and cordial and all that one day um carol said to me look at billy right now i said he just found out that there was a fire in his office and paintings worth millions of dollars were destroyed. And he was instructing the crew about the next shot. And I went over to him and I said, Billy, I just heard what happened. I'm so sorry. And he said, he basically answered with a shrug and a smile.

I mean, he was amazing wow yeah we will return to gilbert gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this tell us about directing elizabeth taylor on the stage in her first stage production it was no problem see, I was, part of the reason I thought that could work. The Little Foxes. Yeah, The Little Foxes. Was that a lot of her best screen work was in scripts that were originally written for the stage with very strong dramatic through line. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf is an obvious. Cat on a Hot Tooth.

Yeah, sure. And Suddenly Last Summer and all that. very strong dramatic through line. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf is an obvious Cat on a Hot Tooth and something else somewhere and all that. So she knew how to think in those big terms of a great stage role. So in fact, The Little Foxes, which is a demanding play, but it's not as demanding as Who's Afraid

of Virginia Woolf or anything by Tennessee Williams. And it's, so she'd already, on film, but she had done, and those films all have very long takes, takes that go on for five, ten minutes, big, charged, theatrically written, emotional scenes. So I thought, this is, she's halfway there. She's a lot more than halfway there already.

And she was. And Maureen Stapleton was in that cast as well. What a thrill for you. Oh, yeah. Working with these people. Huge. Yeah. And again, that was a very cheerful set.

A lot of that due to Elizabeth. Elizabeth Taylor, like with Bar with barbara she she was a democrat there was she one night we were opening in new orleans after we'd played on broadway and the producer took over a little french restaurant and we we and we stood around having our drinks and then there was a slight kind of delay when we were to sit down at the table. And I went to someone. I said, why is there a delay? He said, because Elizabeth just found out the understudies were going to be in a separate area.

And she insisted they be at the table. No one knew this. Wow. I was the only one who knew it because I asked. That was exactly typical of her. So if the person who's wielding the particular power or clout on that film set or in that production is a good human being, then it's a harmonious working environment. It changes everything. Yeah.

And vice versa. Yeah. And you've been on bad sets. I've been all over the place. That's right. You've been on sets where like actors were pulling Star Trek. Like Orson on Catch-22. But that was

almost clownish. I mean that was a performance. You know, I mean that was just let me make it clear that Mike should not be directing this film. This is just after the graduate like, oh, we all took that so seriously.

Oh, maybe Mike doesn't know how to direct film. Yeah, sure. It was so patently ridiculous. Or telling Mike Nichols how to direct comedy. Yeah, exactly. With all deepest, profoundest respect to Orson, you see those films, comedy is not his long suit. No, I was going to say that. Yeah, yeah.

But you've worked with actors who've just felt that they were the star. You will get no further words out of me on this subject. God damn it. Yeah, right. Nice try, Gilbert. Nice try. Before we let you go, Austin's got to run to teach a class. Wow.

But is this bullshit? You know, you don't trust what you find on the Internet, but were you considered for the part of Fredo in The Godfather? This is the first I've ever heard of Fredo. I would have loved to have seen that. I don't think that would have worked. Kazali was pretty good. Yeah.

I mean, I think I'm one of those actors who actually I think I can play anything. Right. But I think even I would draw the line at that. Yeah. Well, then do tell us quickly about working with Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward. Because Mr. and Mrs. Bridge. That's my favorite movie. A film you're fun in.

That's my favorite movie I've ever been in. And that, particularly the long scene with Joanne, is the happiest I've ever been acting on a film set. That's nice. They were good to you. Yeah. Paul, he wasn't really in the scenes I was in. Right. But he came by.

It was out in Kansas City. Because he was in scenes before. That afternoon with Joanne and Jim Ivory, that's the happiest I've ever been on a film set in terms of acting. You really like Paul Newman. Oh, who didn't? I mean, Paul Newman was... Who haven't you worked with? In addition to...

We love character actors. We love you. Your name has come up on this show many times before we got you. Well, I'll send you the Jonathan Lynn episode where we're waxing poetic about you. But you've also worked with Philip Bosco, Harris Hewlin, Rita Moreno, George Hearn, Len Cariou, Fred Gwynn, Charles Durning. These are the best character actors. Some of these people that you've gotten to work with. We have great respect for the character, lack of a better term, the character actor.

Well, you're kind of lucky if you're a character actor. How do you mean that? Well, it doesn't depend on youth. it doesn't depend on youth. And there are very talented people who are young, very talented, and they're attractive and they have that magnetism and they're terrific actors. And the industry keeps clocking them

about when are they going to get a little bit older. Right. And sometimes they survive that, like Ethan. Mm-hmm. You know, he's an example of a real survivor of that. But sometimes they're just brutal to those people. You know, they're the old, one of those old religions. They would, in South American society,

they would select each year the most beautiful young man and woman. And for a year, those people would be lavishly treated, guests of honor everywhere. And at the end of the year, they would take them up to the top of a hill and cut their hearts out. That's one definition of honorable. That's an extreme example, yes. Wow, wow. But a character actor can age pretty slowly. Character actors, they're hoping you're going to age.

And if a movie bombs, you're not blaming the character actors. Well, occasionally they are. But you have to be careful. Okay. We love the old character actors. We talk about Lionel. Okay. Yeah, right. We love the old character actors. We talk about Lionel Barrymore. Oh, yeah. Martin Balsam.

Martin Balsam and Ed Begley Sr. Yeah, totally. And all of these, Beulah Bondi and all of these, Edward Arnold, all of these people. And Skelton Maggs. Yeah. And Butterfly McQueen. Butterfly McQueen. Oh, excellent.

Thomas Mitchell. I mean, you could go on forever. Yeah, right. Tell us what's coming up. You're in Choir Boys now? It's in the singular. Choir Boys. I'm sorry.

I apologize. Choir Boy. Yeah, I'm in it now. You play Mr. Pendleton. Yeah. Yeah. How did that happen? I think he named it after me.

I've never directly asked Terrell whether he named it. Okay. I sort of wish he hadn't done that. People do say to me on the sidewalk, well, I guess you're just playing yourself, so that's easy. Well, give us a plug. Where can people come and see the show? At the Freedman Theater, Manhattan Theater Club.

Samuel Freedman Theater. The Broadway space of Manhattan Theater Club. And it's going to be on for a while yet. And this cabaret that you're doing, can Gilbert and I come and see you sing? Yeah, the way to find out about that, it's in a cabaret space called Pangea. P-A-N-G-E-A.

I'm writing it down. On Lower 2nd Avenue between 11th and 12th Street. 178 2nd Avenue. And now, as Frank will tell you, whenever we're wrapping up a show, it's when I come up with another question. Go ahead. Okay.

The man has to teach. You said, and I thought this was brilliant, you said there are no rules in the business. None. It's the Wild West. I mean, you can be hanged for no reason. You can be elevated for no reason. I mean, I've given you several examples of it. It's funny.

If my picture hadn't been in the paper the day that Mike decided he couldn't offer it to Dustin anymore, Little Foxes, I would not have been in that show and probably not in Catch-22. And it's funny. Incredible. Yeah. How can you take seriously any of, you know, your career when it hinges on things like that? Everybody in the business, agents, managers, producers,

all pretend that they've got it figured out. Nobody does. Well, if you get one half of a drink in them, they'll tell you. And it's like, and then turning it around, for seven years, I didn't get even a Broadway. I wasn't allowed to audition for a Broadway show because of some bad reviews at Brooklyn Academy of Music. So it's all that. So that's when you decide, I'm just going to go where the work is.

Good for you. What's the only decision you can make? Well, it's inspiring. You took money to be in films so that you could have a couple of bucks so that you could go do a showcase, which is where your love is. I played Hamlet in a showcase once

in a church loft, and we rehearsed it for a year and and at the end of that year each of us in the play got a check for 80 for the year's work so yeah you've got to find some other work you're an art you're a true artist austin well but it's it's not that noble it's like like, I can't get work. This group wants me to play Hamlet. Sure, we're going to do it. And I'm almost 50.

Right, right. And the clock is ticking. Yeah, sure. Quickly, what do you remember about Philip Seymour Hoffman? Oh, it's a very nice story in the documentary about how. Oh, well, that audition he did. I've seen maybe two auditions that good in my life.

And I've seen a lot of really good auditions. But he shambled in at four in the afternoon for the non-equity company. And I was alone in the room because the person who was going to do it with me

had the flu. And you see a lot of talent people in shambles, this wreck of a person and he looked like the way Phil looked and I thought

oh I hope his work is half as interesting as the way he looks as George Morfogon my friend said he's a Bruegel painting he's like one of those peasants in those

Bruegel paintings and he was twice as interesting as the way he looked. He did that final speech from the Glass Menagerie, which is magnificent. But I've heard it 400 times. I thought, oh, he's not going to do that. And it was like he was making it up as he went along. It was like the words were just occurring to it. Well, he's in the documentary, and he words were just occurring to it. He's in the documentary and he says he's

indebted to you. He said that he was feeling nothing but fear and that you took all the fear out of the room. You made him comfortable. That was lovely but you know and for a few years after he really began to hit it big people would say

he would say and people would say Phil credits you with the rise of his career. I'd say, anyone who was in that room and would pass on him simply doesn't belong in the industry. It wasn't like I found the talent hidden in the inexperienced young. It was all there. Everything that we then saw for many years was evident. You could not take anyone seriously who would turn him down. So, I mean, I would love to say that boy would have been nowhere without me, but it's just

ludicrous. All he needed to do was walk in a room. Well, we'll urge people again to see the documentary. And that scene where Philip and Seymour Hoffman, which is very touching. And Meryl Streep and all these people saying and Natalie Portman. All these things saying great things about you. Well, I say great things

about you. You obviously love. The film is called, starring Austin Pendleton, the directors are David Holmes and Gene Gallerano and it's coming out. I'll tell you something. I think Meryl Streep is talented. I think she's going to make it. Yeah, yeah. These are, yeah, I'm full of original self-love.

Let me quickly thank Adam Shartoff, too, who did a nice podcast with you at Film Wax Radio. He helped with the research of this, and he got me a copy of the film, which Gilbert and I loved. Yes. Yeah. And thank you to Alex Brazell and Showbriz Studios, where we are recording this one.

So we'll do a quick wrap. I'm Gilbert Gottfried. This has been Gilbert Gottfried. I thought you were Michael Lerner. Yes. You promised that you were Michael Lerner. Yeah. No, I'm some other Jew character actor.

And this has been Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host Frank Santopadre. And Austin Pendleton has to go teach his acting class

and he also has to tell me about what stars were scumbags who he worked with. He's not going to tell you. Alright, if you take me out and get me blind drunk You're on. And I call in somebody

to make sure you haven't hidden a wire inside you. You're on. Then you might hear something. Okay. We'll make that happen. And we turn the mics off. Austin's going to sing Miracle of Miracles for us. Oh, great. In your dream. Austin,

we always say we just scratch the surface, but will you come back and play with us some other time? Please. There's so much we didn't get to. My God, what a career. And he came out on the coldest day of the year. A horrible day. It's six degrees. Thank you, my friend. Thank you. Thank you very much. We are not through yet.

And before you speed through, we'd like to introduce our cast and crew. Jackie Lee. We are not through yet. And before you speed through, we'd like to introduce our cast and crew. Before you speed through, we'd like to introduce our cast and crew. Jackie Gleason was Tony Banks, Carol Channing Flo, Frankie Avalon, Angie, Fred Clark, a tower guard, Michael Constantine, Legion, Frank Gorshin, the man, John Phillip, Law Stash, Peter Lauper, the senator, Burgess Meredith, the Warden, George Raff, the Skipper, Cesar Romero as Head Chief, Mickey Rooney, Blue Chips Packard, and Groucho Mars played God in the Otto Preminger film, Skadoodly-Doo-Doo-Doo.

With Arnold Stang as Harry, Dora Miranda as the Mayor, Phil Arnold as her husband, Slim Pickett as a switchboard operator, Robert Dunner as another switchboard operator, Richard Keel as Beanie, Tom Law as Geronimo, Jake Rosenstein as Eggs Benedict, Benedict, Stacy King as the Amazon, and Benny Roker as a prison guard, Roman Gabriel as a a prison guard And Nilsson as a tower guard And Stone Country as themselves And the Orange County Ramblers Played the Green Bay Packers And introducing Austin Pendleton as Fred Alexandra Hay as Darlene

And Luna as God's mistress Well, you know what I mean Music and lyrics by Nilsson And Luna as God's mistress. Well, you know what I mean. Music and lyrics by Nilsson, who also played a tower guard. Arranged and conducted by George Tipton, a very good friend. Choreography, Tom Hanson. Costumes, Rudy Gernreich. Photographed in Panavision and Technicolor.

Director of Photography, Leon Shamroy, ASC. Sound, Glenn Anderson, Franklin Milton and Lloyd Hanks. Thanks to camera operators, Irving Rosenberg and Dewey Wrigley. Chief Electrician, Fred Hall. Key Grip, Leo McCrary. Transportation, George Colton. Editor, George Rose. Assistant Editor, Dee Ball.

Music Editor, Fred Fryer. Sound Effects Editor, Don Higgins. Negative Cutter, Connie Rosé, and Script Supervisor, Kathleen Fagan. Oh, boy. Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast is produced by Dara Gottfried and Frank Santapadre, with audio production by Frank Verderosa. Web and social media is handled by Mike McPadden, Greg Pair, and John Bradley-Seals. Special audio contributions by John Beach. Special thanks to John Fodiatis, John Murray, and Paul Rayburn.