Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - 269. "Twilight Zone" 60th Anniversary Panel with Gary Gerani, Nick Parisi and Anne Serling

Episode Date: July 22, 2019

To mark the 60th anniversary of the original "Twilight Zone," Gilbert and Frank welcome historian Gary Gerani, author NickParisi and Rod Serling's daughter Anne Serling, to discuss one of the most groundbreaking programs in television history -- and the man behind it. Also: Desi Arnaz leads the way, Ray Bradbury lends a hand, Richard Matheson joins the team and Anne reveals her dad's favorite TZ actors. PLUS: "Rod Serling's Night Gallery"! The brilliance of Bernard Herrmann (and Jerry Goldsmith)! Gilbert sends up Ed Wynn! Buster Keaton enters the Twilight Zone! And the panel picks their most underrated TZepisodes! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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moisture body wash buy it today at major retailers Hi, I am Griffin Dunn, and I have just opened my veins for the past two hours to Gilbert Gottfried for his amazing, colossal podcast. I told him things I'm so ashamed of. You must listen. Bye. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host Frank Santopadre and our engineer Frank Ferdarosa. Well, we had so much success with our recent Marx Brothers panel that we're trying something similar this week to mark the 60th anniversary of a TV series

that made its debut way back in 1959 in a show we've talked about extensively on this podcast, a little program called The Twilight Zone. Author, screenwriter, trading card king, and former podcast guest Gary Girani has written extensively about The Twilight Zone, most notably in his essential 1977 book Fantastic Television. He's also provided audio commentaries for the Twilight Zone Blu-ray editions. On episodes including Living Doll, The Howling Man, Night of the Meek, Eye of the Beholder,

of The Beholder. Writer, editor, and author Nicholas Parisi serves on the board of the Rod Serling Memorial Foundation, dedicated to preserving and promoting Rod Serling's legacy,

and is the author of a terrific, comprehensive volume on Serling's prolific career, 2018's Rod Serling, His Life, Work, and Imagination. And finally, Anne Serling is a teacher, lecturer, writer, who has adopted two of her father's teleplays into short stories, one for the angels and the changing of the guard. She's also the author of a very touching and memoir about her father as I knew him. My dad,

Rod Serling. And now, we all step into the twilight zone. Here we are. Hey guys, hello everybody. Hey. Hi everybody. Hi Anne. We're doing something

different too. We have Gary on Skype. We have Anne on the phone. And Nick is right here with us in person. Touching old bases. In the New York studio. And we've been sitting here, Ann, talking about favorite episodes. Which is a great way to begin, actually. Which is a great way to begin.

Yeah. So tell us something, too. I wanted to ask you something from the book, Ann, which is I'm going to start off with something touching. You wrote in the book, in Twilight Zone reruns, I search for my father in the man on the screen, but I can't always find him there. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Because it's really at the heart of what the book is about.

Right. Well, you know, that black and white image is not the father that I knew. That's the man that the public knew. But the father that I knew was so completely different from that image. He was brilliantly funny, warm, just a kind, kind guy. And I think people are intimidated by, you know, the person that they see on television. I know my friends were, and then when they would meet him in person, it was so very different. He really comes across as a funny person

if you read the book. Right, which he was. Although it must have been surreal, especially back then, coming face-to-face with Roth Serling for someone who didn't know him. Yeah, because, well, I guess you would buy the image of the man from television. It would be like meeting Boris Karloff or someone. Like, oh, my God. Or Alfred Hitchcock, yeah. Or Hitchcock, yeah.

Or Alfred Hitchcock, yeah. Or Hitchcock, yeah. A friend of mine, we were going out to dinner with my dad, and she was so afraid to meet him because, as I said, she thought he was going to be the Twilight Zone guy. And she was so surprised. And she wrote me, you know, within moments, her impression was so very different from what she anticipated. Now, your father was trying to carve out a meager living as, like, I think a copywriter early on? Right, right. And he wrote several scripts, but he was trying to make his mark,

and Nick could probably speak to this with a lot of interest. Well, yeah, essentially a copywriter. He worked in radio, so he was writing continuity patter for DJs and things like that, and he was writing commercials and endorsements and things like that in Cincinnati, in radio in Cincinnati, but at the same time he was writing his own scripts and sending them out and constantly getting rejected, as most novice writers are. And eventually he finally broke through.

How many scripts did he submit before? He said he had at least 40 rejection slips, and I think that's not an exaggeration. He had at least 40 rejection slips from radio and television before he sold really anything. And it was much longer before he really broke through and became a real success. But before he sold anything, at least 40 scripts were rejected by TV and radio. How about that? You have to have a real

thick skin as a writer because you're going to get a lot of rejections, particularly if you're a fiction writer. I mean, you can try to squeeze in with non-fiction. It's a little easier. But fiction is very, very hard, and you've got to get used to the rejections because it may take some time. But, you know, you keep going

because you have the love and the crazy passion for it. I just wanted to add that my dad did not set out to be a writer. Before he went into the war, his plan was to, when he went to Antioch College, to major in physical education because he wanted to work with kids. And as he said, the war changed all of that. He was so traumatized, as any vet is. He said that he had to get it out of his gut.

He had to write it down. And that's when he changed to language and literature and became a writer that there was that one twilight zone death's head revisited that takes place in a concentration camp right and and that was one of the few episodes where he closed the closing narration said a lesson not only to be learned in the Twilight Zone, but wherever man walks on Earth. It's very powerful. Yeah. And that had that actor who was in another Twilight Zone, Oscar Berejik.

I always get it. Oscar Berejik. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was in another Twilight Zone. There he played like the Nazi officer who revisits Dachau. Yeah, and he was very good as a Nazi, that actor.

He played a lot of Nazis. While we're on the subject of Nazis, I want to move to... And he was a Jew. Yes, he was. A German Jew. And, Ted, what sitcom did your father hate more than any other sitcom? Oh, it was Hogan's Heroes.

Yes! I found that in Ann's book, and it was very interesting. He had a great distaste for it, for treating Nazi Germany with levity. Right. Any kind of humor, he found that completely inappropriate.

Yeah. Yeah, clearly. And since we're talking about his war experiences and how it changed him, it was fascinating. I didn't know that he was almost killed by a Japanese soldier. Right. And saved by a friend of his who shot the soldier over my dead shoulder. Yeah.

Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. And so the war changed him. I mean, there's something in your book and maybe get the wording right for me because I'll piece it together sloppily, but something about a vow or a promise that he made to himself.

I'm not exactly sure. Well, that he would never harm anyone or any living thing after he had this experience. Right. Well, you know, again, like any vet, my dad was so broken by the war, and that was one of the most difficult things about writing my book, was to read the letters that he was writing to his parents when he was still in training camp. And, you know, he was 18 years old,

and when I was writing those, my son was 18, so I had a real close-up look of an 18-year-old. And it was just, it was devastating to me that to read these letters, I mean, it was like he was away at summer camp having no comprehension of what he was about to deal with. Do you think he had, you mentioned in the book that he may have suffered from PTSD for the rest of his life.

Oh, not may have. You know, again, like any vet, he definitely did. He would have nightmares that the enemy was coming at him, and I would hear him screaming in the middle of the night, and I would ask him in the morning, what's the matter, and he would tell me, you know, that again, I thought the enemy was coming at me. You know, it's so, you know, interesting that you mentioned that because, you know, my dad served in World War II and he used to have those kind of nightmares too. I'd be in my room and I would hear him crying in his sleep, yelling in his sleep.

And I finally asked him and he says, yeah, he was reliving some of those memories. So yeah, that sticks with you forever, sadly. They didn't have the help back then or the awareness of what was going on. There wasn't even the term

PTSD back then. It wasn't even shell shock. Right,. What was it? Exactly. Shell shock. Right, right, right. Nick, can we assume, too, that this anti-war, I mean, this experience is what led him to write so many stories that were anti-war stories? Oh, absolutely. But I think I do clarify in the book that I wouldn't necessarily consider him completely anti-war. In fact, he said he wasn't anti-all war. He wasn't a knee-jerk anti-war pacifist. He was against the Vietnam War, but he eventually became against the Vietnam War. He had to gradually get there. He didn't start off

against the Vietnam War. He was the type of guy who required data. He required information. He would think about these things, and he eventually became an anti-war activist against the Vietnam War. But really what his experiences did was give him the sensitivity of knowing what those soldiers are going through and knowing that war has to be the last resort. And you don't send these guys over to do things that aren't absolutely 100% necessary. So it just gave him that awareness of the horrors of war that, you know, not the average person just doesn't have. We haven't experienced it, obviously, and he did. So he was, you know, especially sensitive about it. Did Sherling ever see the camps? And I don't know that, actually, if he ever actually went back and saw the camps, did he? Do you know? You know, I don't know the

answer to that. I wish I could ask him. I think not, but I couldn't say that with absolute certitude. Not during the war, I can tell you that. That's for sure. I mean, he served in the Philippines and then in Japan, so he never went to Germany during service. One thing that you could see affected Serling through the Twilight Zone episodes is the

taste of the 50s. The whole Russian scare. Oh, yeah. Certainly in like the Monsters Are Due. Yes, yes. Absolutely. And also the irrational fear and bigotry

and prejudices that can come out of the Cold War and a fear of the outsider. I mean, that episode was more about the monsters inside ourselves than whatever we have to be afraid of from out there. So, yeah, he definitely jumped into that. And the Twilight Zone wound up being a perfect platform for saying all these things. Yeah, I actually think a lot of the Twilight Zones are about the monster within ourselves. Absolutely. Yeah.

And there's a quote in the book that he called prejudice the evil of the world or the evil of our lifetimes. Right, right. And I vividly remember him talking about that. He was quite passionate and livid about everything that was happening and very, very vocal, even at the dinner table, about all that. There's a story, and Nick can elaborate on this too, this is not a Twilight Zone story, but that he

himself, and this is very strange, was accused of anti-Semitism by another popular author, by Leon Uris, which is kind of sick. Can you explain the circumstances surrounding that? Yeah, this is a Playhouse 90 that he wrote called In the Presence of Mine Enemies. It was a show about the Warsaw Ghetto, about the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto.

And Rod Serling had the temerity to include in this particular show a Nazi soldier who was not a completely evil robot automaton Nazi. He had a soul. He had a sensitivity. And in this particular show, this soldier is ordered to get a Jewish family's daughter to bring to a Nazi captain to be raped. I mean, he knew this is what he was bringing her for, and he does it, and afterward, he breaks down to the rabbi father of this daughter, apologizing, saying, I haven't slept since this happened, I can't eat, I can't

sleep, and he seems sincere. Well, this particular characterization of this Nazi really rubbed Leon Uris the wrong way. The author of Exodus. The author of Exodus. And actually, Leon Uris, a year later, wrote his own version of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising called Mila 18, I think it was called, novel. But yeah, he was offended particularly by this characterization, which, oh, by the way, was played robert redford yes yes television debut yes um the years before he was on the twilight zone and um yeah so so certain things in this particular show rubbed uh him the wrong way and also not just him but you know a lot of other uh jewish leaders and the cbs got hate mail they got you know they got phone calls and everything and and rod sterling was uh he was he was really really hurt by this because obviously he was as far from anti-Semitic as he could possibly be.

Of course. He was just – he was really hurt by it. This has happened in some other cases too. I mean Marlon Brando got grief when he was in The Young Lions because the Nazi character he was playing was sort of portrayed in a sympathetic way. They didn't flinch from what the horrors were, but it was a very, very difficult transitional time. People who had just, you know, gone through the war. Of course.

And, you know, they didn't want to see Nazis, you know, portrayed in anything other than that kind of really animalistic way. And it was tough for writers. You know, you had mentioned, Nick, in your book that James Franciscus plays a Nazi with a little bit of a conscience in The Twilight Zone. Exactly. Because it was in the context of a fantasy episode, there were no complaints, which is, of course, what made The Twilight Zone so useful.

You could say all these things and get away with them. And that brings us to his genius stroke, which is how he found a way to write the issues of the day, to write about things that maybe were not so sponsor-friendly, maybe weren't so network-friendly, by putting them into a fantasy context. I just wanted to say what Robert Redford, who played the German soldier, said.

He thought the script was courageous, and he was honored to be a part of it. It's funny with the young lions, though, I heard Brando in one of his early craziness. He wants when he dies at the end of the young lion. I know where this is going. Yeah. He wanted a fall on barbed wire with his arms outstretched. And Christ. And I heard Montgomery Clift said. If he makes this Nazi bastard. Into Christ. I'm walking off this fucking movie.

Unbelievable. So Nick. He's toiling away. Writing for Playhouse 90. For the USD Allower. He's the U.S. Steel Hour. He's having problems with censorship early on. Right. This is long before the Twilight Zone is even a gleam in his eye.

Oh, yeah, yeah. He started running into problems with censorship and problems with the sponsors pretty much after Patterns. I mean, Patterns was his breakthrough in January of 1955. That was the big breakthrough for Rod Serling. It was a huge hit on craft theater January of 1955.

And today, it's kind of, it's hard to imagine what we mean when we say it was a big hit because it was just, I mean,

it was just one show. It was, you know, it was one show. Well, how big of a hit could it be? Well, back then, a show like this, it was treated almost like it was a Broadway opening night.

You know, the next day when the reviews came in for Patterns and they were off the charts, I mean, you know, Jack Gould in the New York Times said it was the best thing that's ever been on television, you know, essentially. Yeah, that's in your book. Yeah, and so it made Rod Sterling a star overnight, literally made him a star overnight. when he had that name and he had the prestige and he had a little bit, he was a little bit more financially secure also, he said, I'm going to start addressing these subjects that are important to me like prejudice. And as soon as he tried to, he ran up against the sponsors and the network censors and he just, he just couldn't do it. He couldn't do it in television. And eventually,

yes, he, you know, he went into the twilight zone and he was able to, you know, do these things through allegory and, you know and through science fiction and fantasy. And that was his brilliant stroke to do it that way. Serling told that story and I saw a clip of it. And that was where they did one live – they did one show on TV that took place in a concentration camp. on TV that took place in a concentration camp, and they bleeped out gas chambers because they had, like, gasoline. You know what he's referring to? Yeah, the gas company was one of the sponsors.

Unbelievable. They didn't want the gas of the gas chambers to be associated with their, you know, stoves, you know? So, yeah, as if anybody couldn't make that distinction, you know. But yeah, that's how bad it was back then. So, Anne, he cleverly, your dad cleverly figures out that there

is a way to get these stories written, to tackle prejudice and intolerance and anti-Semitism on network television. Right, and his quote was, he discovered that an alien could say what a Democrat or a Republican couldn't. Right, and his quote was, he discovered that an alien could say what a Democrat or a Republican couldn't. Yes, profound.

You know, it's always interesting to me, you know, is that all part of his master plan? Well, I'm going to come in with this fantasy show, and gee, you know, because there are aliens and flying saucers and pixies and all these things, hey, they won't take it seriously, and then I'll be able to sneak in all of my major important messages. Or do you think that just kind of happened by accident?

Because in his initial interviews on The Twilight Zone, there's this whole feeling of, yeah, I'm shying away from doing all these heavy social kind of things. Oh, we're just going to be doing fantasy. But obviously, within fantasy, you can make all these points. So I was just curious how much of that was his master plan to begin with? I don't think it was his master plan. I think it was the thing that you referenced about the gas companies

and the sponsors. I think that probably stunned him that he couldn't write these stories without disguising them. And he was once quoted also as saying that it was the writer's job to menace the public's conscience. So he wanted to do it in the way that he could get it aired. Yeah, and not only that, I make the point in the book, I think that the idea that Rod Sterling created the Twilight Zone and went into the Twilight Zone solely to do this to get past the sponsors is a little bit overstated. Okay.

I mean, he did. And he did. I mean, he said it enough times himself to say that, yeah, that is one reason he did it. But the other reason he did it was he always wanted to do a show like the Twilight Zone. He loved science fiction and he loved fantasy. loved science fiction and he loved fantasy and back when he was writing we talked about in cincinnati back in 1951 uh he was writing for a show called the storm in cincinnati where he had a ton of freedom because it wasn't really seen by a lot of people and he wrote a lot of fantasy and science fiction uh because he just he had the freedom to do it so when he broke into network

television he didn't have the freedom to write science fiction and fantasy because it was looked at as a as a as a as a genre for eight-year-olds. It wasn't serious drama. A serious writer would not write science fiction and fantasy. But he always had it in the back of his mind that he wanted to write science fiction and fantasy. And once he had these problems with the sponsors and he had a name for himself and CBS gave him the opportunity to do his own show, he said, all right, well, you know what? I'm going to do that science fiction show I've always wanted to do. And oh, by the way, I'll probably be able to get away with some of the stuff that I've been trying to get away with in regular drama

if I do it in this science fiction and fantasy context. So he had a real kind of have your cake and eat it too relationship with The Twilight Zone. It was the best of both worlds for him. As luck would have it. One thing Serling said in an interview, and I thought when I first heard this this I thought it was him being sarcastic and then they actually showed a clip of it and he said something like it's very hard to build a feeling on TV when you're you're interrupted with rabbits dancing with toilet paper yeah and they actually showed this cartoon with rabbits and toys and actual paper.

Something in your book, maybe it was in Ann's book, where I just found it depressing. He almost had to apologize for having this vision and having this insight. He was saying that he had to pretend that he had no desire to educate or enlighten. Yeah, you might be talking about the Mike Wallace interview. Yes, that's what I'm referring to. Because Wallace was dismissive of the genre. Yes, and he's kind of what Gary was talking about. He kind of was

backpedaling from I'm not going to do any real social commentary on this show. It's not that kind of show. And he was really, he knew he was going to do social commentary. Well, that was clever. That part of it is calculated. We should also mention that the whole idea of why science fiction, fantasy, all of this stuff was held in such low regard during this period. I mean, you think about it for a second, my goodness.

You know, Jules Verne, H.G. Wells. H.G. Wells wrote War of the Worlds. We've been talking about using science fiction. Well, that was his way of attacking the British imperialism, saying how would you like it if someone came in and took over this way? So science fiction actually had a very proud history. But at this moment in time, with the greatest generation kind of in charge, people who had a very, very tremendously real sense of the real world, they survived the Depression.

They fought in World War II. And fantasy was just thought of as kid stuff for this period of time, which is why it was so hard to be taken seriously during this period, if you were doing this kind of work. I think that's absolutely right, yes. Did Serling ever have any contact with the House of Un-American Activities? Anything? That was slightly before.

I mean, McCarthyism kind of hit in like 1950, and that's really when Rod Serling's career was starting, so he kind of missed that. No, he didn't have any contact with that. Thank God. Or they would have tried to brand him as subversive right off the bat, just from his writing. Oh, yeah, boy, yeah.

He would have certainly fit the bill, right? So, Ann, he wrote 92 episodes all by his lonesome. Yeah, 92 of 156. Incredible. Very impressive. And I have to say, you know, from everything that I've heard and read, it was really a seamless team of writers with... Well, Beaumont and Matheson.

Matheson, yeah. When did he start bringing people aboard, Gary? I know he asked Ray Bradbury for recommendations. Yeah, that was pretty early on. I mean, he went to the Masters. He went to Bradbury, and that's how, you know, Matheson, Beaumont, they all kind of flowed from the Ray Bradbury source. It's always been an interesting little irony that Bradbury himself,

other than the electric grandmother, really did not contribute to the series. And yet the Twilight Zone has the flavor of Bradbury all through it. So – but he did make use of – Serling did make use of all of those other wonderful writers that came from Bradbury's world. And that is what made up The Twilight Zone. Nick, talk a little bit about, I'm sorry, go ahead, Ann. No, I was just going to say, I think my dad was, well, I know that he was very humble, and he did not, I don't think, consider himself an expert science fiction writer.

I think he would say that others were better than he was. I just wanted to add that. Yeah, that's in the book. He's rather humble about it, you know, considering he wrote, you know, stories like The Obsolete Man, and he wrote some good science fiction episodes. He sure did, yeah.

Particularly, yeah, when he talked about himself, really, in any way, he was always very humble, and more than humble, he was his own harshest critic. I mean, he just took himself to task on everything he ever wrote, I think. But when it came to science fiction yes he felt he saw himself as an outsider because he never he wasn't publishing short stories in the in the pulps or you know in the magazines of the time he wasn't a science fiction writer like bradbury he wasn't publishing science fiction novels or anything like that so he always saw himself as an outsider and

and he he always great gave great deference to those guys to bradbury and everybody else because he felt they were the true quote-unquote science fiction writers and he was just you know he was just a television writer who happened to be writing science fiction stuff you have that quote i can i can adapt science fiction well but i can't i can't originate it that's what yeah that was his take and of course well i think i think he can do both yes exactly quite frankly and he may have entered the Twilight Zone as an outsider, but by the time it was over, his name resonated just as strongly as any of the others. You better believe it, yes. Now, one thought I always have when I watch,

because this is one of those famous Twilight Zones, where I always thought, this character's being punished for no reason at all. And that was the Burgess Meredith one. Yeah, Time Enough at Last. Yeah, that is... Well, that's an adaptation. Yeah, it is. But Serling's version of it, and certainly in Burgess Meredith's performance of it,

bringing out what Gilbert is talking about, that he's really... It's the one time in The Twilight Zone, really, where somebody gets a punishment that they don't deserve, I think. He wanted to sit and read. That's all he wanted. That's all he wanted, yeah.

And he couldn't get it, yeah. And the point was also made, Nick, I think in your book, that it isn't that this fellow had cut himself off from the rest of the human race because he was trying to share the love of what he was reading with his wife and with his boss.

No, no, it was the world that he inhabited that was screwed up and probably deserved to be destroyed because it didn't appreciate art and beauty. It was just a dark irony that he kind of became one of the tragic pieces of that battered landscape when all was said and done. Yeah, that's the way I read it anyway. And an episode that you can watch over and over again, and it never gets old. And where did they dig up the incredible background of the destroyed cities and the paintings? I mean, was that done for The Twilight Zone?

Was that hanging around from another MGM movie? It was an amazing set. The one set that you're probably thinking of, the most famous one, where he's standing there amidst the rubble of the libraries and stuff. I believe that was an MGM set. And in fact, I think it was reused in Back to the Future, believe it or not, when the clock tower was. I think that's the same set of those steps going up to the pillars and everything. Yeah, I believe that's the same set. But other things I think were probably backdrops.

Yeah, you had those wonderful backdrops with destroyed bridges and smoking buildings. And I'm going, was that from the world of Flesh and the Devil, which MGM put out? But it wasn't. Yet it was, you know, incredible work. While I nudge Gilbert awake, listen to these words from our sponsor. Were you speaking? Were you speaking? Baseball is finally back.

Get in on Major League action and swing for the fences with BetMGM, the king of sportsbooks. Log in or sign up to play along as BetMGM brings the real-time action. Embrace a season's worth of swings with BetMGM, your one-stop shop for all things baseball. BetMGM.com for Ts and Cs. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only.

Gambling problem? Call ConX Ontario at 1-866-531-2600. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Want visibly glowing skin in 14 days? With new Olay Indulgent Moisture Body Wash, you can lather and glow. The 24-hour moisturizing body wash is infused with vitamin B3 complex and has notes of rose and cherry creme for a rich indulgent experience. Treat your senses with Nuole Indulgent Moisture Body Wash.

Buy it today at major retailers. at Moisture Body Wash. Buy it today at major retailers. It's Gilbert and Frank's Amazing Colossal Podcast. And now we return to the show. Another character who was punished unfairly, and this wasn't one of the better Twilight Zones. This was one of, but it had one of my favorite character actors, John MacGyver. And that was the one, I think, Sounds and Silence.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I don't know. It's not necessarily he was punished unfairly. I'm not sure. No, it's not necessarily he was punished unfairly. I'm not sure. He becomes mean, but then he gives a whole speech in the middle of it, talking about how his parents forced that on him.

Right, right. And then you go, well, wait a second. There's an explanation. It's not just that. You want to treat Anne and Nick and Gary to a little bit of your John MacGyver, since you brought it up? Oh, well, this is from Sounds and Silence. Since you brought it up? Oh, well, this is from Sounds and Silence.

When I was a child, everything we had to be quiet. Everything we had to whisper. We couldn't speak in a normal tone of voice. We whispered. We weren't allowed to eat cookies. We could only eat fudge because cookies were too noisy. What do you think, Anne? I think that's quite good.

That was masterful. Masterful. What did you say, Anne? I said chillingly good. He's the only John MacGyver impersonator still working. They used to be a bunch. It's a cottage industry. Let's talk about The Fateful Night.

Let's talk about the birth of the show in October of 1959. By the way, I found one other quote here, too, again, talking about belittling sci-fi as a genre. He said his transition from live drama was viewed as the equivalent of Stan Musial leaving the St. Louis Cardinals to coach a Little League game. Yeah, that's what he said, right. Let's talk about Desi Arnaz's, of all people, involvement, Anne, in the birth of the Twilight Zone. of all people. Involvement, Anne, in the birth of the Twilight Zone. Right, and

these are things I, of course, didn't know back then, but yeah, Desi Arnaz was the first or, what do you call it, spokesperson eventually. The host. Oh, thank you, yeah. And that didn't work out so well, right.

Oh, the time element. Right, right. But I actually met Lucy Arnaz, and she didn't work out so well, right. Oh, the time element. Right, right. But I actually met Lucy Arnaz, and she didn't know her dad's connection to that either, so I thought that was interesting. Isn't that cool? Yeah. So that is the true unofficial? Is that the true Twilight Zone pilot, the time element?

There's some debate about that. That's why we call it the unofficial pilot. Okay. So, and it runs an hour, too. It's not even a half hour. Desi Arnaz was the host? Well, here's how it went. It was the Desilu Playhouse.

Yeah. And Desi Arnaz was the host of Desilu Playhouse. And they aired an episode called The Time Element that was written by Rod Serling. And he was submitted to CBS as Twilight Zone, The Time Element. And Rod Serling submitted it as the pilot, but CBS rejected it as a pilot. They thought it was too ambiguous. It was too much fantasy and it was too far out. And they didn't want to do it as a pilot for a series.

But the producer of Devil's Little Playhouse and Desi Arnaz liked it and liked Serling and they wanted to produce it. So it ended up on that show. And so it is seen now as the unofficial pilot because it was intended to be the pilot of the Twilight Zone, but it just didn't quite make it to the Twilight Zone and ended up on Desilu Playhouse.

But, um, so, and Desi Ones hosted it. Yeah. So. And then there's another pilot. It's quite good too. It's quite good. If you ever see it. Oh yes, it is.

Yes. What about the Happy Place? That became the second pilot? Yes. That was the, yeah. And that was never produced. That was a one hour, a script that he, that was rejected. CBS found it too depressing?

Yes. Yeah. It was, um, yeah it was um yeah it was it was set in a dystopian future where um the elderly and the sick are are euthanized and um it's about uh a guy who works at this basically concentration camp almost well it's more of a hotel it's a happy place you know where people go they think they're going to be happy and they get euthanized you know and they're um his son is uh is is being indoctrinated to this idea of that these people are supposed to be you know put down this way and it was a

very dark script yeah and it would not have been a good pilot okay so now it's his third attempt and they eventually you know third time's the charm because what they wound up with was the ideal pilot it's great for a whole bunch of reasons, which I'm sure Nick can amplify on. I mean, not only was it a good little story, but the fact that it wasn't totally supernatural, if you will, made it safe. Yeah, and by this point, the Twilight Zone was dropped from an hour to a half an hour. I mean, Rod Serling originally wanted it to be an hour show, and that's why the time element was an hour, and the happy place originally was an hour-long script. And then they dropped to a half hour, and he submitted Where Is Everybody, starring Earl Holloman. And it really was, as Gary said, it was a perfect pilot because it really was accessible enough for the mainstream audience to grasp onto.

It was essentially a one-man show, so you just identify with this one person through the whole episode. And the ending is one of the few endings in the Twilight Zone that could happen. It's essentially a rational ending, even though it's a twist. So it really was the perfect pilot. Yeah, there was nothing really supernatural or fantastic going on. This was just going on

in his mind. He was in isolation. And yet it taps into everything that we love about the Twilight Zone in the sense that here's an average guy that you can relate to who suddenly finds himself. He takes the wrong turn, and the whole world is upside down. What happened? Which became so much of what Twilight Zone was about. We could relate to the main characters.

And we've already mentioned Robert Redford, but a lot of big stars, like Charles Bronson. Oh, so many. Is in oneonson. Oh, so many. Is in one. Oh, God, so many. Robert Duvall. Yes, yes, yes. Duvall is another good example. Carol Burnett.

Yes. Anne Francis. And a lot of them were not even stars when they started. Robert Redford was a few years away from becoming a star. But television during this period made use of a lot of wonderful actors who did go on to become big stars. And one of the best, I think, Jack Klugman. Oh, and Klugman. Oh, yes.

And Art Carney. Oh, yeah. He was in two. Klugman was in four. He was in four? Four? Yeah. Wow.

Game of Pool. Yeah, that one I know. And Praise of Pip. Those two I know. Which ones am I blanking on? He was in one of the hour-long episodes. One. Game of Pool. Yeah, that one I know. And Praise of Pip. Those two I know. Which ones am I blanking on? He was in one of the hour-long episodes. One of the hour episodes. Yes, he's one of the hours, right.

And Passage for Trumpet. Oh, I watched Passage for Trumpet. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. Klugman, I think, did more Twilight Zones than any other actor, even more than Burgess Meredith. Meredith and Klugman both did four, actually. They both starred in four.

So they're both tied at four. As far as starring roles go, yeah. And I want to give this a little personal and historical context. Now, you were not watching these shows. Obviously, you were a child. Right, right. I was four when The Twilight Zone premiered. I'm an old lady now.

But I really, I always knew that my dad was a writer, but I didn't know specifically what he was writing. And actually, I wrote about this in the book that I didn't know that he wrote The Twilight Zone until this mean kid on the playground asked me when I was probably seven,

are you something out of The Twilight Zone? Wow. And I didn't know enough to be completely offended at that point. So what was the first one you sat down and watched with your dad? Was it Nightmare at 20,000 Feet? Yes, it was. And it was of no consolation that my dad hadn't written that one. It was Matheson.

I was still absolutely terrified. And I think like anybody, you're kind of always looking out that airplane window just anticipating that little gremlin. I got to say something. I was, I guess, six years old in 1959 when the series started, so I was the perfect age. My parents were a little eccentric themselves, so they let me stay up until like 10 o'clock. What was it, Friday nights at 10 o'clock? Okay. Most kids weren't allowed to stay up that late, but for the

Twilight Zone, they let me do it. And I gotta say, I mean, I just got so caught up in everything we're talking about here. I mean, once that show pulled you in, you were hooked forever. And then the reruns came on in syndication. You were watching forever. Nightmare on 20,000 Feet. I just want to say this one thing. That is so well directed. I actually spoke to Richard Donner, the director on it, who went on to do The Omen and all these other great films. on it, who went on to do The Omen and all these other great films. And he still considers that to be one of his greatest achievements. The way he directed, that was with William Shatner, you know? Sure.

William Shatner is about to pull that curtain, and you'll have a close-up through the window of the face coming right out. You've never seen the face yet. You've just seen it in the distance. The way he directed that, where Shatner just holds back, pulling the curtain, holds back, finally then just pulls it, and that face is right there. You could hear the screams in the whole neighborhood. You gave me a segue, Ann, because we talked at the very beginning about your dad's sense of humor. Tell us about the practical joke.

I just want to revisit one thing that was just said About being so young watching the Twilight Zone It's really been amazing to me The people that I hear from That watch the Twilight Zone as kids And they've written me very personal things About how they had tumultuous childhoods Or abusive childhoods

And how they thought of my dad as their father and what an important role he was. And this is from kids and people who decide to go into writing because of my dad. So it's been some really poignant things that I've heard from people. But to your question, yes, my father was a practical joker and anything for a laugh. He would often disappear and then reappear wearing my lampshade or costumes. He's a quote by Roger, I think his first name is Roger Rosenblatt. He wrote a book called, I think it was called Making Toast or Toast. And he wrote a graduation speech for his daughter. And he said that I wished her moments of helpless hilarity. And that really had an impression on me because that's so much of my relationship with my dad.

It was helpless hilarity. There's some good stories in the book like that, too. And you see his sentimental side. Not only you guys watching the Flintstones together and what he paid you to tickle his feet. Do I have that right? Oh, you do. One thing that was very popular with Serling, and it's in two of my favorite episodes, Walking Distance and, oh, what's the other one? Willoughby.

Stop it, Willoughby. Is the idea of desperate to escape the rat race and be in a more simpler time. That seemed like a very popular Serling idea. Well, he told a writing class that he had a propensity to write about the past. And that was quite clear to me, you know, as I got older, that my dad really. And I think his best scripts were those two that you mentioned, and A Night Gallery, they're tearing down Tim Riley's bar. You know, another thing that happened when my dad was in the war is his father died of a heart attack when he was 52. And even though the war was over, my dad was not allowed to go home because he didn't, at that point, have enough points.

my dad was not allowed to go home because he didn't at that point have enough points. And this was another trauma that he experienced that, you know, he couldn't be there for his father's funeral. And I think there was certainly unresolved grief. And so in walking distance, you know, there's that opportunity to go back and to have his father say the things that I'm sure my dad wished that his dad could say to him you know that stop looking behind you look ahead Martin is it so bad where you're from I thought so pop I've been living in a dead run and I was tired and one day I knew I had to come back.

I had to come back and get on a merry-go-round and eat cotton candy and listen to a band concert. I had to stop and breathe and close my eyes and smell and listen. I guess we all want that. Maybe when you go back, Martin, you'll find that there are merry-go-rounds and band concerts where you are.

Maybe you haven't been looking in the right place. You've been looking behind you, Martin. Try looking ahead. Maybe. Goodbye, son. Goodbye, son. Goodbye, Pop. Wow, that's wonderful. He actually got closure through his art. Absolutely.

You know, by writing this, he was able actually to have that closure with his father. And there's that terrific actor in it, Frank Overton, who plays Gig Young's father, who is just a great actor. Yeah. It was a beautiful script and beautifully acted, I think. It's so full of those actors, you know? Really, really. Those great character actors who gave these terrific performances, really. And in Walking Distance, isn't that sort of taken right out of your dad's life?

Didn't he go back? I forgot the name of the park. He walked through the streets, and there was a recreation park with a bandstand and a carousel? It was absolutely his imagined journey backwards. You know, every summer my dad would go back to Binghamton and drive by Recreation Park and see the carousel and drive by his house. And this definitely was autobiographical. And by the way, that carousel is still there. That's about it.

That's exactly what I was going to say. I watched it recently, and they're so sloppy with editing. There's a whole ending that is so nice. Oh, you mean the local television station that ran it? Yes. Yeah, they cut him up. Because the ending is he goes back to this soda shop, and now the price of chocolate soda is much more. And when he tries to get up off the stool, he goes,

I guess these stools weren't made for a bum leg. And the guy says, get that in the wall? Oh, he tells him that he hurt himself on the merry-go-round, and he says, oh, they tore that down. And he goes, a little late for you, and he goes, yeah, late for me. That whole section,

they cut out. And it's such a powerful moment. Terrible. It's a poignant piece of television. And Gig Young is amazing. Also, we should mention Spect spectacular score by Bernard Herrmann. I was going to say that.

One of the many great composers who worked on the series. And that particular episode may be Bernard Herrmann's most impressive work. And Serling himself loved that score. In fact, to the point where he wrote to Bernard Herrmann and told him how much he loved that score and wanted to know if he could get a recording of it. And Bernard Herrmann wrote back to him and said how rare it was for a writer to write to a composer and compliment his work. It was just unheard of. And he said, of course, I'll find you a recording of it if I can. And one, well, going back to In Praise of Pip, we had one of the

actors. We had Billy Moomy. Yeah. Yeah. And I wanted to say, and I said to the boys before you came on the line, we've had seven people on this podcast

who were associated with the original show, which we're proud to say. That's wonderful. Including Richard Donner, who Gary just praised, but also Billy Moomy from those three,

from Good Life, Long Distance Call, and Pip, George Takei, Barbara Barry, Julie Newmar, from Good Life, Long Distance Call, and Pip. George Takei. Barbara Barry. Julie Newmar. John Aston. Joyce Van Patten from one of the hour-longs.

And Orson Bean was here. Oh, really? From Mr. Beavis. Oh, that's right. That's right. And I always forget who's the, there was an actor in it with him. William Shallert was the cop. We almost had him.

Oh, yeah. That would have been great. Oh, that would have been great. Yeah, yeah. He passed away. And Carol Burnett. Carol Burnett, too. Of course.

Now, I seem to have a memory that the Carol Burnett one, they put a laugh track into. Originally, there was, yes. And now that it's been subtracted, I believe, it's no longer in the versions that you will see, but originally there was, and as a child watching it when it was first, it totally confused me because I knew that laugh tracks

were on situation comedies and things. They weren't on The Twilight Zone. So years later we found out, of course, that was a pilot for another series, which would have been a comedy series, so the laugh track would have been appropriate.

But there it was on the Twilight Zone infusing a lot of people. It was so weird on the Twilight Zone. One of the things I love in Walking Distance is his nod

to Ray Bradbury. Yeah, one of the speeches. Also, Mickey Rooney, because that was on the old MGM lot. And since Mickey Rooney's Andy Hardy house was there,

that was another little connection, in joke. Yeah. Nick, I read, I think it was in your book, and you said he was his own harshest critic. Was he sharply critical of his storytelling in that particular episode?

Yes, in that particular episode, believe it or not, he came to, he loved it when it or not. Believe it or not. He came to, he loved it when it first aired. I think I point out in the book, he wrote very glowing things about that episode when it first aired. But as time went by, he became dissatisfied with it, primarily because of some structural issues. He thought that when the gig young character, Martin Sloan, meets his parents, it happens too early in the episode. And it wasn't as emotional as it should have been. He felt, after watching it so many times,

that he should have saved that for closer to the end when it could have made a bigger emotional impact. Whereas he says, you know, Gig Young goes back, and he sees his parents, and it's, you know, he should be devastated, or he should be really, really affected by seeing his parents again for the first time in so many years, and he's kind of not, and that bothered him. But I think he, again, was being overly critical.

I think it's a beautiful episode. It was also his students who were pains in the neck and would always be criticizing, and they kind of turned his head on that. I remember reading about that thinking, no, no, no, no, this is a beautiful episode. And some of the other points that the students were making, I just disagreed with. The little old fella behind the counter who isn't reacting strangely to Gig Young's odd kind. I always

figured that's because people from this era were just gentler and nicer and didn't want to embarrass you. And that also just played perfectly to show the difference in the two different time periods. What Gary's referring to is Rod Saling taught, he taught to show the difference in the two different time periods. So, you know, work for me, folks. What Gary's referring to is Rod Serling taught,

he taught at several different places, but he taught at a school in California shortly before his death in 1975. I forget the name of the school, but a lot of those lectures have been included as commentary tracks on Twilight Zone episodes. So you hear what the students are saying about these episodes, and Rod Serling was very sensitive

to allowing them to criticize his work. So he would let them take these shots at him. And invariably, Rod Sterling would kind of take their side. Yeah, you're right. I should have did this. I should have done that. And sometimes I think he was being a little overly critical. He did say that he felt he learned more from them than they were learning from him. Wow. Interesting. Interesting. And jumping ahead a few years, he didn't want to do Night Gallery, I heard.

Well, he did initially, but then when he realized it was going to be a completely different animal and he was not going to have the creative control that he had with Twilight Zone and Jack Laird wanted all this horror, and that was not what my dad envisioned at all. Again, he wanted to tell meaningful stories that gave a message, and he was disappointed. But that said, again, that episode, they're tearing down Tamarly's bar and others, were

really beautiful scripts. Yes, that's a beautiful one. Well said. The best of the night galleries and, you know, usually just, you know, because they let Serling do his thing and they were just wonderful episodes. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this. This episode is brought to you by FX's The Bear on Disney+. cast after this. is ready to heat up screens once again. All new episodes of FX's The Bear are streaming June 27, only on Disney+. Introducing TD Insurance for Business

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That's my particular favorite, yes. Oh, the Edward G. Robinson. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great one. Yes, I love that one. Yeah, that was another great one. Yeah, that was another great one. Yeah, there were good, really good night galleries. I mean, I know the show

sort of has a reputation of just being a bad Twilight Zone, but there were excellent episodes of that show. You know, some of his best work, I think. I like the Vincent Price one. Yeah, me too. Class of 99. Oh, and then the Lawrence Harvey, the Caterpillar, another great one.

I mean, those are some wonderful ones. You said something in the book. You said his sentimental streak was almost as intense as his crusading moralistic one. And I watched Night of the Meek last night, and it's really a beautiful piece of work. Right. It's actually Mark DeWitsiak who recently said that, like Mark Twain, my father was a moralist in disguise. Mm-hmm. That's fair to say.

And another one of my favorites, one for the angels. Also very sentimental. Yeah. Yeah. Ed Wynn and Murray Hamilton. Which was like the second episode broadcast, I believe. It was very early. Yes, it was. Yeah. And Gary like the second episode broadcast, I believe. It was very early on. Yes, it was.

Yeah, and Gary, you did a commentary on that one. You did an audio commentary on the Blu-rays. Yeah, yeah. And again, think of it from the point of view you're watching the show for the first time. You're a kid. You see the first episode, you know, with Earl Holliman, where is everybody?

It's like, you know, my God, wow, what is this? And now all of a sudden, the second week, you've got Ed Wynn dealing with Mr. Death in this whimsical, poignant, sweet little story. Wow. It just shows you the range of these stories and where the series can take you. And the first week, we were spellbound. The second week, we were charmed. And right away it was like, this is going to be one heck of a...

And I think the third one was Mr. Denton on Doomsday, I think, which is a Western. And right away the show is telling you, we're going to take you everywhere in any time period, any situation, and you're going to find humanity and you're going to find fantasy and something's going to hook you.

And look at his versatility as a writer. And even though it's a sweet, cute story, there's also a little girl who gets hit by a car and is in a coma throughout that episode. Yeah, well, that was the stakes. The stakes that Edwin, the Edwin character,

had to deal with. That he's going to try to save this little girl. Look at Mr. Death in that episode, played by Murray Hamilton. Yeah, it's horrific. And what an interesting characterization of Death, because he's not a bad guy. He's doing his job. He's even kind of sympathetic to Edwin here and there.

So what a marvelous way of showing, introducing Death as not necessarily being a scary thing, but being just a guy. Eventually, Robert Redford would play death in the series, even more likable and warm. Yeah, and this death is more of a bureaucrat. And for people out there who don't remember Murray Hamilton, just remember, you say barracuda,

and people say, what? Huh? But you yelled shark and we've got a panic on our hands. His most famous role as the mayor in Jaws. Absolutely. So, Ann, with these episodes, and we'll talk about Willoughby in a minute. Oh, wait, wait. Go ahead.

My favorite line from One for the wait. Go ahead. My favorite line from One for the Angels. Go ahead. He says, if there's some accomplishment, I could hold off your death. If there's some major thing you have to achieve. And Edwin says, well, I never rode my helicopter. They have a nice byplay. I mean, the writing is wonderful, but, you know, again, the casting of this show. Yeah, yeah. I mean, within an inch of its life, every single part is just, especially in that first season, Gary.

Oh, yeah. It was one episode after another, and you're just going, whoa, because we had never experienced, I mean, there had been other TV anthologies, there were other spooky anthologies, Lights Out and Tales from Tomorrow and all that, but there was nothing like the Twilight Zone.

It seemed to grab people of all ages, you know, what an experience to have lived through when it first came on. Oh, and there was that one with Buster Keaton. Yeah, sure. It was like a silent episode almost for a while, right? And another great actor, and I always forget his name, and me and Frank were looking up his name. That fat guy who's with Buster Keaton.

Stanley Adams? Oh, Stanley Adams. Yes. Another fine actor. He was in Requiem for Heavyweight. Yes, and the Batman series, actually. And you're seeing your dad's sentimental side. You were talking about the sentimental streak.

I mean, I'm partial to the sentimental episodes, the one Gilbert's talking about, Willoughby walking distance, obviously the Christmas episode. I mean, wereoughby, Walking Distance, obviously the Christmas episode. I mean, were those among his favorites? Do you know? Oh, I would say definitely.

But as was the Nazi Germany one. Oh, Death's Head. Death's Head revisited. He was quite passionate about that one as well. But certainly, as I said, he said that he had a propensity to deal with the past. So I think these ones where he's going back in time and having the

capacity to write this and they were cathartic for him that he was that those were his favorites. And part of, I think, why The Twilight Zone was so good is because my dad owned Cayuga Productions. This was his favorites. You know, and part of, I think, why the Twilight Zone was so good is because my dad owned Cayuga Productions.

This was his baby. He had complete control. And, you know, when we were talking about Night Gallery, he didn't have the creative control then. And, again, a seamless team of writers that they all got along. So I think that was a huge part of it, too. A writer's show.

Well, yeah, obviously it's a lovely thing to see someone who creates the show maintain the vision of the show throughout. But, Gary, speak a little bit about those writers, about Beaumont, about Matheson. Oh, well, these guys were brilliant guys. They all had careers doing short stories. The written word is really where they'd gotten started on the page. And they transitioned into doing things like The Twilight Zone and then movies that were on themes like this. Madison and Beaumont wrote one hell of a great horror film

called Burn, Which Burn, which is also known as Night of the Eagle, which is an incredible dark, black and white supernatural story. Matheson went on to write all of the great Roger Corman, Edgar Allan Poe movies. So these guys, you know, I mean, not only that, I mean, Matheson became the Night Stalker and all of this great work that he did.

So they had tremendous careers and it always kind of harks back to the Twilight Zone in a sense because the Twilight Zone kind of inspired so much of what their later careers were about. Of course, Charles Beaumont died relatively young. Very young. Unlike Matheson who went on to produce great works. But yeah, no, they were all, and George Clayton Johnson,

I mean, they were all wonderful, wonderful writers. I mean, when you think of The Twilight Zone, it's mostly Serling you think about, but Matheson, Beaumont, those guys also were key players. Absolutely. Yeah, they wrote plenty of great classic episodes. And the amazing thing about Matheson and Beaumont, to me anyway,

is how they balanced Serling. They really wrote different themes, different styles than Serling did, much darker stuff than Serling wrote, primarily anyway. And they just perfectly complemented each other. I mean, they weren't going to really write a sentimental story like one for the Angels

or really a message-laden story like one for the angels, or really a message-laden story like Monsters Do on Maple Street. As Matheson would say, we just wrote stories. We just wrote story stuff. That's all we wrote. We weren't going to make a statement, but it was so perfect to balance the Serling stuff with those stories, and they wrote

The Howling Man and Shadowplay and Perchance to Dream. All great. And it was lightning in a bottle because who knew that was going to happen, that they would all compliment each other so perfectly. Yeah, and Serling didn't know. He either got lucky or he sensed something in these guys that he knew that they would just work well on the show, and they did. And one episode that had, of all people, Alan Seuss from Laughing.

Some strange people would turn up. That was the masks. that had, of old people, Alan Seuss from Laughing. Some strange people would turn up. That was the masks. Yes, which was a very creepy one. Oh, yeah. That was in the final season, too. That was one of the last great ones that they did. I want to ask, Anne, about you and your sister

visiting the set, Anne, as children. Right. I just want to say another really touching episode that was like my dad's writing with George Clayton Johnson's Kick the Can, which I thought was just a really lovely, lovely script. In fact, when I got married and they had done the 83 movie, we won't go there, but I loved the soundtrack to that. And we played the music from Kick the Can at our wedding. Oh, that's great. Oh, wonderful.

Yeah. But, yeah, my sister and I, my dad took my sister and I to the set, and we were clueless where we were, and all I remember was a set of stairs that went nowhere and holding my dad's hand. a set of stairs that went nowhere and holding my dad's hand. And yeah, but you know, again, I really wasn't tuned in to, well, this is where, you know, dad, all his writing occurs and, or, you know, that's the end product. It's a good thing you weren't there on one of the days where William Tuttle's monsters were running around.

You know, he could have scared the heck out of you, right? If you had been there for Eye of the Beholder. You could have been scared the heck out of you, right? If you had been there for Eye of the Beholder, you would have been in trouble. Or to serve man. Or to serve man, right? Or talking. Or living doll. And your dad passed when you were only 20.

Right, I had just turned 20 about two weeks before. So, yeah, it was, and, you know, we knew that this open heart surgery was, you know, it was so new back then. Today, you know, he would have survived, but back then it was a brand new surgery. all very optimistic that he was going to pull through and he wanted to do a Broadway show and he was very much looking forward to future works and grandchildren and the whole bit. So certain biographers that write about how dark my dad was and depressed, it's not true. You know, he was very optimistic. And that's why I wrote my book to set the record straight about who he was. And it was with Serling, though, I don't think I ever saw a clip of him or anything where he didn't have a cigarette in his hand. Yeah, well, you know, like his dad, he was a terrible smoker, and he tried to quit numerous times. In fact, I wrote this in my book when he was taken to Strong Memorial Hospital by ambulance from the hospital here.

And he was so addicted that he convinced the ambulance drivers to pull over so that he could get out and have a cigarette. And at one point, they were all standing outside the ambulance having a cigarette. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Wow. My sister and I would throw his cigarettes in the fireplace, and he did try to quit. And when, you know, after he died, I found packs of cigarettes hidden away behind his file drawer and just anywhere he could hide them.

I think today, though, he would have quit. I think, you know, with all the pressure he... Because he was also very active, you know. He loved to play paddle tennis and he... Back in the day, everybody smoked. It was almost like automatic, you know, and slowly people began to realize, whoa, this is really dangerous.

I mean, so he got addicted to it at an early age like so many people did. Well, one of the fascinating things about your book, Anne, is that because you lost him at such a young age, that your book is in part about piecing together his life. You're finding the photos. You're finding the letters. You're basically filling in the past. It's really rather touching. Well, thank you.

Thank you. You know, it was interesting because, and a huge part of this book was coming to terms with my grief about losing my dad. And I gave an early reading at the Paley Center before the book was published. And a woman came up to me and she said that after hearing me read, she knew that she'd be all right. Her dad had a terminal illness. And I was so touched that, you know, my book had, something I had written had this impact on her, and I couldn't even speak to her.

All I could do was hug her. But I've heard from a lot of people, you know, everybody deals with grief and how they related to that aspect of it, because I think people are hesitant, and I was certainly hesitant, you know, how open do I want to be, but I was so devastated when my dad died, I felt like I couldn't breathe, I couldn't move on without him, and I know I'm not unique to that, people feel that. It's beautiful to read about, which is, again, why I want to recommend your book.

I mean, not only to Twilight Zone fans, but yes, for anybody that's going through that experience. It's beautiful to watch you piece his history together through the letters and the photos and reading his work, finding the scripts and watching the Twilight Zone and going back and gaining a greater understanding of the man through his work. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. It's beautiful. Thank you.

Yeah. I want to ask everybody about, oh, I have this question for Nick. How did he come to be the narrator in the first place? Because I know Orson Welles was considered. Well, yes, but that actually is a bit of a myth that I think I hopefully busted in the book. It's a myth. Yeah, well, I'll tell you, it's kind of half true. Well, how it worked was, I mean, Rod Serling wanted to be the narrator.

I mean, he always did. Rod Serling, as Anne will attest to, he was a bit of a ham. And he did like to be on camera. He did, no matter how much he protested and everything, he did like to be on camera. And so in the first season, he was an off-screen narrator. He wasn't seen on screen during the first season. It was just the off-screen narration in closing. And it wasn't until after the first season that CBS then said, Hey, you know, if we have an on-screen narrator, maybe it'll, you know, give us a little excitement, boost the ratings a little

bit. Why don't we go see if Orson Welles is interested? So it wasn't until after the first season, actually, they said maybe Orson Welles could be an on-screen narrator. And Rod Serling was actually booked to go fly to London and meet with Orson Welles to discuss being the narrator. And I'm not sure if he ever followed through with that, because I think what happened is that they eventually realized, you know, we're probably going to have to pay Orson Welles, I think. You know, he might want some money for this. I think that would definitely be a good guess.

Yeah. And they were trying to cut the budget. They were constantly trying to cut the budget. So I think what ended up happening was Rod Sling said, I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it. And they said, all right, you know what, let's just let Rod do it. And he did it. And we can't imagine it any other way.

Exactly. It's so interesting because his voice already in season one kind of dominated. You already kind of knew. Yeah, so how could you replace that? And also, correct me if I'm wrong, but my memory is even in season one, it was always, and now Mr. Serling. And he would introduce the trailer for Nick. Yes.

So he was on camera. So he was on camera. So he was on camera, yes, after the episode was over, but that was just during the first run. So when I was watching the show, obviously, in the late 70s, early 80s, I never saw those. And syndication, right. They never had that. And I just thought there were two episodes, at least,

with the actor George Grisard. One of them had to do with the actor George Grisard. One of them had to do with the love potion. Yes, there are the two episodes. The half hour love potion one and then there's an hour episode in his image. He builds a robot

of himself. That one I like. Very creepy. The chaser was the name of the other one with the love potion. George Grisard usually played neurotic characters, you know, and he was good in both of those parts, I thought. And who were your dad's favorite actors interpreting his work? You said in your book, Klugman was one of them. Yeah, definitely Klugman. You know, and I don't remember,

this is one of many conversations I wish that I could have with him. But from what I understand, you know, after writing the book, Klugman certainly read for it. You know, I think so many of them did such a superb job that my dad was quite pleased. Art Carney, for sure. Oh, yeah. I remember when Billy Mummy was on, he talked about how Klugman, you know, Mummy's parents were there, and Klugman went over to the parents and said,

when your son shows up in the scene, I'm going to grab him and I'm going to start kissing him and squeezing him. And that's a great story. That really is a beautiful story, actually, that bloody movie says. And he says his parents never got over that. Like, what a gentleman this guy was to go basically warn his parents

that he was going to grab him and kiss him and hug him and said they wanted to make sure they were comfortable with that. Yeah. It's amazing. Did you meet him? And what a gentleman Bill Mummy is, too. He's a lovely guy.

We love Bill. He's just a genuine nice guy. He's a sweetheart. You must have been present in 88 when Klugman and Burgess Meredith Lovely guy. We love Bill. He's a genuine nice guy. He's a sweetheart. You must have been present in 88 when Klugman and Burgess Meredith were present for the dedication of your dad's star on the Walk of Fame. Unfortunately, I was not there then. I wish I had been, but we were back east. Oh, that's unfortunate.

Oh, it absolutely is. You're talking about Jack Klugman, and I believe Jack Klugman had originally been cast as Santa Claus in Night of the Meek, and Art Carney was the second choice, and I think initially, Rod

wasn't that crazy about Art Carney, he really, really wanted Klugman, and then ultimately realized that Carney was brilliant in his own right. I mean, really wanted Klugman, and then ultimately realized that Carney was brilliant in his own right. He's so good in it. Granted, Klugman could have played that part beautifully, too. I mean, let's face it, they were both wonderful actors. So we're talking about your dad's sense of humor, and

obviously you have to speculate again, but one can't help imagine what he would have thought of what the show has become in pop culture, how it's endured for decades. I mean, I think about Dan Aykroyd spoofing your dad on Saturday Night Live.

Harry Shearer, I think, in later seasons. How many times he's been sent up? Semi-regular characters on The Simpsons. Those two Martians. Oh, Kodos and Kang. Kang and Kodos. And in one of the Naked Gun movies, the guy, the actor from that particular episode, runs across the screen and yells, To serve man, it's a cookbook.

Oh, what's his name? Who is that? To serve man, yeah. Who is that actor, Gary? You know the actor. Oh, from... Is it Prince Weaver? No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Lloyd know the actor. Oh, from... Is it Fritz Weaver? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Lloyd Bauchner. Lloyd Bauchner. Oh, yes. Lloyd Bauchner. Would he have been tickled by it, Ann, do you think? Oh, I think so beyond tickled. He would have been stunned that it survived all these years. But, you know, again, my dad dealt with human issues.

And I just wrote this to somebody today that, you know, times change, but people don't change. And we're still dealing with these things. My dad was so passionate and vocal about, you know, like prejudice and mob mentality. And, I mean, look at our current administration. Of course. It's just so divisive.

So, again, that's, I think, a huge piece of why it has survived all this time. But, yeah, my dad would just be saddened in some ways, you know, because we are still dealing with all this shit, but just honored that he's remembered after all these decades because he didn't think he would be. That's incredible. Yeah, he's immortal, and these decades because he didn't think he would be. That's incredible. Yeah, he's immortal, and the Twilight Zone is immortal. It'll never go away.

I mean, the name resonates, just that the title itself, you know, means so much in our culture. Sadly, watching the monsters are due on Maple Street, and I are the beholder this weekend, and you're struck by how timely they still are. Sad. Sad to say. And as Anne points out, with the current administration, timelier

than ever. I know it's indelicate to talk about, but boy, I mean, he was a visionary, too. Oh, no doubt. Without question. So I'm going to ask the panel, and I know this is hard, because it's like picking a favorite

child, I would imagine certainly for Anne, and you too, Gilbert, but we'll start with Gary. A favorite episode, and then what you consider to be a favorite underrated or underappreciated episode. Oh, wow, you're really coming at us on this one. Okay.

Alrighty. My favorite episode, to me, the ultimate Twilight Zone episode to me is Eye of the Beholder. It has everything. It has an incredible twist. It has amazing Bill Tuttle makeup. It has an incredible Bernard Herrmann score. And it just nailed it. And when I first saw that as a kid

it was like, oh my god. Incredible. And again, you know, you could keep going because if you want, what is your favorite sentimental one? Well, you know, you could start looking. What's your favorite underrated one? One that you think deserves more attention

and isn't quite on the tip of people's tongue. I'm going to jump into the hour episodes and mention Death Ship by Richard Matheson, which also stars Jack Klugman, our good friend Jack Klugman. Oh, geez. And, yeah, and that is a solid hour science fiction episode about a man who's driving the two men under him to such a degree he won't even let them die and it it is the spookiest most interesting uh piece of work i think uh and it's very much ignored most people remember the other jack klugman episodes they tend to forget that one so i'll throw that one out actually i remember saturday night live did a very funny sketch that was a takeoff on Eye of the Beholder where the girl unwraps the bandages and it's Pam Anderson.

And the women doctors are going, oh, she's hideous. And the male doctors are going, no, she's hot. Nick, same question. Favorite episode and favorite episode that needs more attention, deserves more attention. It is tough to pick a favorite. I know. But at this moment, I'd say Walking Distances is probably my favorite. We've talked about it enough.

And that's just, I mean, Rod Serling, we talked about the sentimentality. I think one of the reasons that Rod Serling does endure and does appeal to so many generations is, I don't know of another writer who wore really did it to the extent that Rod Serling did. If you watch Rod Serling's work, read Rod Serling's work, you know who he was. You know what was important to him, what he loved, and that just exudes from the screen, and that's why so many of us just gravitate toward him. So yeah, walking distance, I would say, and then I'll cheat and I'll give you two underrated ones. My first underrated, very underrated, is an episode called The Trouble with Templeton. It was one of the episodes not written by any of what I call the core four, Serling, Bradbury, I said Bradbury, Serling, Matheson, Beaumont, or Johnson. It was written by E. Edwin Newman. What's the Mad Magazine character?

It was written by somebody else. And it's a very Serling-esque episode about an actor who goes back, he's trying to go back in time to his glory days. I remember that one. Who's that actor? I'm so terrible with actors' names. Oh, God. Gary will know.

Oh, God. Who is that? We'll keep talking. Gary will find it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was a movie actor from years ago. I can't think of his name. And actually, Sidney Pollack is in this episode.

Oh, yes. He plays the director in this episode. But the beautiful thing about this one is that the past rejects him and sends him back basically. His friends from the past send him back because they know he doesn't belong there and say, go back to your own time. You live your own life. Live in the present. And I love that one. And the other one that I would give you

and it's, I think most people do think it's a good episode, but I don't think it gets enough credit, is Shadowplay by Charles Beaumont. Shadowplay was probably my favorite episode for a long time. For several years, I would have given you that as my favorite episode.

And it's about a guy who is continuously executed on the electric chair. And it's a dream. It's a recurring dream, the nightmare that he's having about being executed. Oh, with Dennis Weaver.

Dennis Weaver. Exactly. He was creating it. And that's like, I think that should be a top episode. And it's hardly ever talked about as a top episode.

Who the hell is that actor? Brian Ahern. Oh, yes. Yes.n oh yes yes yes right who was a real you know actor years ago like a you know so he was a perfect choice for that role okay gilbert best episode under best underrated oh well i i've talked about the same thing you know i i love uh walking distance distance with Praise of Pip being a close second. But, I mean, there are so many great ones. It was, I remember when, you know, Frank called yesterday and said, you know, pick out four episodes. You just kept texting me for hours. Yes.

Yes. Dead's Head Revisited. One for the Angels. They just kept coming in. I just kept going. Howling Man. Yeah, I kept going, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, this one's. But great underrated ones.

I don't know. This will probably hit me when the show's over. Okay, we'll do an addendum. Yeah. Okay, I will go. It's a great thing to bring up. I'm just thinking the Big Tall Wish is something I watch constantly, whatever it comes on.

Another sentimental one, yes. Very sentimental. There's so many like that that you just love. We're going to leave you for last, Dan. Best for last. I don't know about that, but I'm going to agree with Gilbert. Walking distance and in praise of Pip is one that I hadn't seen until my dad died. And I was so struck by that one because some of the dialogue between the father and the son was the exact same dialogue that my dad and I had.

Who's your best buddy? And it just blew me away that, you know me away to watch that live in that episode. You know, underrated, even though I've had all these moments, well, you guys were talking about it, I'm still coming up, trying to come up with one. So hit me later with that one. Well, this is good. We'll have something for the fans to look forward to.

We'll put it up. I'll be the one that picks Time Enough at Last as my favorite episode. It's tragic, but it doesn't have a false note in it. And for an underrated episode, a tie, 100 yards over the rim, which I think is just a perfect episode. That's a great one. And I like the time travel ones. I like back there, the John Wilkes Booth episode with Russell Johnson.

Yeah, and with one hell of a Jerry Goldsmith score. With Jerry Goldsmith music, yeah. Anne, tell us about the foundation, about the... You're on the board, as is Nick.

Right. Well, it was started by a group of people that my dad went to school with, and it's to remember my dad's legacy. Helen Foley was my father's teacher, and actually she was the one who began it. So, yeah, Nick,

you want to chime in here? Sure. And it's been going strong since 1985, I believe, when Helen Foley started it, mid-80s. And we're going to have an event this October to celebrate the 60th anniversary right around the exact actual 60th anniversary of Mary's, everybody, in

Binghamton, which is his adopted hometown, October 4th, 5th, and 6th. We call it Serling Fest. It'll be the TZ at 60. And tickets will be on sale soon. And you can go to RodSerling.com to check that out. Gary, this is an obvious question, but what makes him great as a writer? Oh, well, yeah.

Everything we've been talking about. I mean, you're talking about a man who felt very, very deeply about things. To use one of his words, he had a hunger. And that is very clear in everything he's ever written. Nothing is written casually. There's total commitment. So you have heart, soul, and intellect at work. And with the Twilight Zone, the imagination, the fantasy angle on top of everything else. That all added up to one of the greatest writers we've ever known, period. I mean, what else can I say?

Would you agree with that, Anne? Well, I'm a little biased. Yes, yes, yes. Let's plug these wonderful books because they're all terrific. I'm going to start with Gary's first book, Fantastic Television, which remains a Bible and a must-have

from way back in 1977. Yeah, I wrote that back in 1976 because at the time, my best friend and my late writing partner, Mark Carducci, we wrote Pumpkinhead together. We were kids who grew up loving this stuff. And we used to sit around.

I'd be waiting. We'd be waiting for the bus to pick Mark up, take him home and all that. And we'd be sitting around on a stoop. And we would play a game called Remember the One. Remember the One with Agnes Moorhead fighting the little spaceman? Remember the One? And these were all the different episodes of Twilight Zone and some Outer Limits or whatever. remember the one with Agnes Moorhead fighting the little spaceman remember the one and these

were all the different episodes of Twilight Zone and some Outer Limits or whatever and it was just our memories these things were not written about in books or anything and that's what I said I've got to write a book for the first time that puts all these shows together so we can

remember them and discuss them and talk about them. So that's what fantastic television was. I'm very proud of it. It was the first book to deal with the subject way back when. And I've done other books over the years, top 100 horror movies, science fiction movies, books about the film industry and the television industry. I'm currently doing a documentary about a great composer, Billy Goldenberg. Billy Goldenberg composed all of Steven Spielberg's early television work, including

the Night Gallery two-hour pilot. And Billy's an amazing composer, and I'm very, very happy to be doing that. So that's kind of what I've been up to in that area lately. Okay, and Nick's wonderful book, and it's about a lot more than The Twilight Zone. It encompasses the entire career of the man. Yeah, it's the first book that actually covers his entire career in this way. It covers from the very first produced teleplay that he had in 1950 all the way through The End of Night Gallery, and it covers them show by show, series by series.

And nobody had done it in this way before. When I started this book, nobody had even really had a complete list of everything that Rod Serling had written that had been produced. There was every list that was out there that was missing things, had gaps and errors and whatever else. So I really wanted to try to set the record for what Rod Serling wrote that was produced on radio as well as television and feature film and everything else. And so it just covers absolutely everything that he wrote. It's a tome, and it was an absolute pleasure to read.

Thank you. Yes. Last but not least, Anne, your memoir, which made me tear up, obviously a different take on the man from a very, very personal standpoint. And as I said, it's filled with photographs, his letters home from the war, which are fascinating to read, funny stories. You really get an insight into the man behind the artist. I can't recommend it enough.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Well, it was a joy to write and decades to do it. I had started another book a few years after my dad died called As I Knew Him, and I hadn't dealt with, I'm sorry, in his absence, the one that was published was As I Knew Him. with, you know, I hadn't even begun to deal with the grief, so I couldn't finish that. But, you know, reading about, you know, my dad's letters to his parents, you know, what I was talking about before when he was in training camp and learning about, you know, that other dimension of my dad, the professional side, it was just a joy to be with him every day while I was writing it. And we've also published some backlist books of my dad. published some backlist books of my dad. He novelized

19 of the Twilight Zones, and we've republished those that are also available. Oh, great. Are you still lecturing occasionally? Are you still doing personal appearances? I am. I am not as frequently now, but I'm still

called and just did an op-ed for somebody. Again, my dad would be so touched that people, and thanks to all of you guys on this call, he would be just so honored and touched. So thank you. Well, he touched our lives. Boy, did he ever. Gil?

Yeah. Well, this is one of those shows where I have to use the old adage that we say in so many of these shows. We haven't even scraped the surface. It's true. We've done 260-something of these, and I have to tell you, all of you, that I really want to thank you personally because this was such a fun, rewarding one to do. Oh, it was great. To be in your company. Great for me.

I loved hearing from you guys. It was fantastic. Work that enriched all of our lives and should be celebrated. Twilight Zone has popped up on this podcast so many times. So many times. And we've wanted to do this. When the anniversary came, it just seemed like a no-brainer for us. So thanks to all of you.

Now, watch me screw up all the names. Hi. Well, this has been Gilbert Garfield's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host Frank Santopadre and our guests Gary Gerani and Nicholas Parisi and, of course, Rod Serling's lovely daughter Anne Serling. Thank you guys, all of you. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye. You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension. A dimension of sound. A dimension of sight. A dimension of mind. You're moving sight. A dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance,

of things and ideas. You've just crossed over into the Twilight Zone. Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast is produced by Dara Gottfried and Frank Santapadre Thank you.