Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - 27. Steve Cox

Episode Date: December 1, 2014

Writer, journalist and pop culture expert STEVE COX is the author of more than twenty books on film and television, including books about Johnny Carson, The Three Stooges, The Addams Family, I Dream of Jeannie, The Munsters, It's a Wonderful Life and The Wizard of Oz. This week, Steve joins Gibert and Frank for a lively (and then some) conversation about Larry Fine's lady-killing, the unappreciated comic timing of Fred Gwynne and "Grandpa" Al Lewis, and Abbott and Costello's influence on Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David. PLUS: A Munchkin suicide hoax! Mayor McCheese cleans up! Buddy Hackett enjoys a strawberry malted! And Frank goes to a Stooge funeral! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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That's Fosty3 at FootCardigan.com. Amazing, amazing, amazing! Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast. And today, my co-host Frank Santopadre and I speak to pop culture author and expert Steve Cox. He's written books about Johnny Carson, Abbott and Costello, The Three Stooges, The Three Stooges, The Beverly Hillbillies, Gilligan's Island, and The Wizard of Oz, and many, many more. Steve shares fascinating and obscure stories about Hollywood legends. Some that may be true, and some that I pray aren't true. Listen and decide for yourself if you dare. Steve talks. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried with my co-host Frank Santopadre

on Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast. Now, this next guy you might not know by name, but he's written here on Gilligan's Island, The Munchkins of Oz, Cooking with Oz, Dreaming of Genies, TV's Primetime in a B it's a wonderful life one fine stooge about Larry Fine the Munsters a trip down Mockingbird Lane short and sweet the life of the lollipop

munchkin with Jerry Marin and the incredible Mr. Don Knotts so please welcome Steve Cox. Hey, guys. It's good to be with you. Thanks for doing it, Steve.

So let's start. I'm obsessed with the Stooges, too. Are you? Oh, yeah. I love the Stooges. I grew up watching them. Yeah. Well, you know, yeah, but you guys had, who was it?

Officer Joe Bolton introducing them? I grew up in it, Officer Joe Bolton introducing us? I grew up in Brooklyn. Officer Joe Bolton, yeah. I remember when I was a kid, I didn't know his show, but I called him because he was, I think he was mentioned in Moe Howard's book, you know? And he was this old guy that it was really nice to find. He was listed in the phone book. And did you ever talk to him? Did you ever meet him? No, I never met him. Yeah, well, every city had one of these old guys, and they were mostly guys, too, that would be on these kiddie shows, you know? In St. Louis, it was before my time, but we had Harry Fender, who was an old Broadway actor, and he played Captain Eleven, and he was like a riverboat captain, and he looked like Mark Twain.

That's what we had. You guys had Officer Joe Bolton, and every city had one of these guys that would introduce the Stooges. Captain Jack McCarthy used to show the Popeye cartoons. Three bells and all is well. Yes. The Stooges. He, Captain Jack McCarthy, used to show the Popeye cartoons. Three bells and all is well. Yes. Yeah. Isn't that great? Because everybody grew up with that stuff.

And Chuck McCann. Chuck McCann, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's still alive. And people loved him. You used to visit Larry Fine. No.

No. No. No. You used to visit Larry Fine. No, no, no, no. No. You know what? I was just sort of on the cusp there. I remember as a kid hearing when Mo died, and I was just devastated by this. And so I kind of missed, you know, corresponding or talking with Mo and Larry. I did get to know Joe Derita pretty well, and also Joe Besser. And as a matter of fact, when Joe Dorita died, I'm very proud of this.

Now, for people who don't know, Curly Joe Dorita was the very last of the third stooge. the third stooge exactly right right and uh when i knew him he was he was just miserably obese a very very large guy uh and you know he would have fans over every once off he called him and got hold of his phone number and he'd be sitting there in his house i remember visiting him with my dad i went out to hollywood a little father-son trip, that type of thing. I was 13, I think. I went out to his house and visited him. The second time I went out there, he was comfortable with me in that. He showed up at the door in his underwear, just his boxers.

That's something I don't want to imagine. And like a wife beater wife beater huge you know he could barely walk and he would sit in this chair with you know this giant groin you know that sort of hung over and i would smoke his little cigars you know and i said to him i said joe uh know, I kind of want to take a picture of you, but, you know, you're in your underwear. He said, well, what's the matter with my underwear? It's clean. So I took some pictures and, you know, stuff like that. But Joe was a great guy.

And when he died, I slipped a cigar into his lapel. I asked his wife, I said, could I do this, send Joe off with a cigar? And she said, oh, yeah, that'd be lovely. And Joe was a good guy, and he had a really good sense of humor. And Joe Besser, who was not that popular as one of the Stooges, but more popular, I think, with Abbott and Costello. I mean, don't you guys agree with that? Yeah, it's stinky.

Yes, Besser. Absolutely. Besser or Dorita any day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, really funny, instinctive comedian. And my God, Gilbert,

you know, I mean, in a way, I compare him to you because his act was that unique. You know what I mean? And everybody tried to do him. This is the first time I've been compared to Joe Besser in my entire career. This is kind of a special moment for me. That Gilbert Gottfried, he's a young Joe Besser.

The modern-day Joe Besser. Now, you told me a story when you were a kid. You wrote Joe Besser a fan letter. I did, yeah. I did. And I wanted to call him because, again, Joe Besser was listed in the phone book. There were a lot of stars back then that were listed in the phone book there were a lot of stars back then they were listed in the phone book i think stan laurel he was yeah that was before my time too but

yeah stan laurel i remember al lewis was listed in the phone book a lot of people like that if you just kind of explored the directory a little bit and uh but better i wanted to call him and my parents said no no you better write him you better write him a letter and being from st louis which is where he was from i wrote him this great fan letter and and that and one night uh i was watching tv with my parents i remember the phone rings it's like a friday night but uh eight o'clock and he he says, Steve, do you know who this is? I said, I don't know. This is Joe Busser, and I just flipped.

I couldn't believe it. And I remember asking, you know, can I ask you a few questions? And, of course, I asked him about working with the Stooges, and then I said, would you do one of your catchphrases? Would you do one of your catchphrases? I'm sorry, I can't hear. Would you do one of your catchphrases? I'm sorry, I can't hear. Would you do one of your catchphrases? Not so loud!

That's wonderful. So it was great because he had set me up, you know. That was a great memory. And we became friends, and he was a nice guy. I think he really didn't like the fact that so many people asked him about the Stooges. You know, he worked with everybody else. And he used to whine a lot. Oh, my God, I've done so much more.

Jack Benny and Jerry Lewis and all that stuff. But he was a good guy, you know. But he really wouldn't, like when you spent time with him, he wouldn't do the, you know, not so loud. You had to ask him to do it. You had to almost beg him to do that stuff oh and you know and before i forget now frank you were at uh curly joe derita's wake i was and i bet steven you were there you know steve it's a weird story i was living in la and a friend of mine mark newgarden called me up and he said joe derita died and we're going over to the wake i said what do you mean we're going over to the wake.

I said, what do you mean we're going? He said, you don't have a car. So he was calling me for a lift. And if you remember, you must have been there. I was, yeah. It was in North Hollywood and it was not well attended, as I remember. Oh, exactly. You know, we may have met there. And I don't even remember.

Oh, my God. Yeah, there was like, wouldn't you say there was less than 25 people there? Yeah, I remember a row of people in the back row wearing Three Stooges shirts. Oh, my God. Which is a little disturbing. And I took the mask card because I said I had to have it. I actually gave it to a friend, a friend of mine, Tom Leopold, a comedy writer, and he wanted it desperately, so I gave him the mask card as a gift.

But it was very surreal and, you know, sad now yeah yeah go ahead go ahead no i heard that uh of all people drack son of dracula beta lugosi jr uh is the one who got um he was fighting to get money for people whose parents' images were being used. And I heard he was fighting for the Stooges, or at least their children. And is it true that most of the three Stooges' fortune went to Curly Joe Derita's descendants? Yeah, in a way. In a way, in that the minute Joe Derita died, his two stepsons, who were both lawyers, got together. got together, and because they had seen the other families, well, essentially Moe's family,

getting all the money from merchandising and that type of thing, not Larry's family, not anybody else's family. Curly and Shemp's families were paid off years ago. So in the picture was any monies coming from the Stooges from the mid-60s went to mo larry and curly joe as a as a team but then when they started dying off most of the money was going to mo's family so curly joe's family finally said that's it and this but joe derita did not want them to file suit he didn't want to make waves the minute he died and i mean the minute he died his his two step-sons uh not his sons but step-sons filed suit against mo's family which essentially held

all the rights and all that and won and so the rights and and found most family negligent, could have sent one of the family members to jail, but instead gave them the option that either relinquish your right, your voting right to the Stooges to us. So right now, as it stands, the company that Moe, Larry, and Curly Joe started, which was called Comedy 3, still exists. Only now, Larry's family and Curly Joe's family pretty much control it with two-thirds of the rights. And Moe's family also shares in the money, but they don't have voting rights. They control over the company.

So essentially, and then Curly Joe's family pretty much runs it. money but they don't have voting rights they you know control over the company so essentially and then curly joe's family pretty much runs it so yeah the the the what the monies that come in from the movies and all that stuff that's all controlled essentially by curly joe's family and that's where it stands so uh yeah it's unusual isn't it yeah it's unusual, isn't it? Yeah. It's very unusual, especially since when I was a kid watching it, I used to go, who the hell is this guy? He's fat, he's bald. He's not curly. No, yeah. And, you know, it was like, I remember going, hey, buddy boy.

And that was about it. Yeah. Oh, yeah, exactly. like i remember going hey buddy boy and that was about it yeah oh yeah exactly and almost almost kind of mean looking he had he was you know he was kind of mean and certainly not as graceful as curly you know he was heavy but he was more obese heavy yeah curly was lovable and vulnerable. Curly Joe Dorita, to me, always looked like when they had a cast, Moe and Larry looked out in the street, and this fat guy was walking by and goes, Hey, would you shave your head? Okay, you're hired. Right.

It's true. But you know what? In real life, though, if you got him alone, he didn't think he would say this. He never thought that the Stooges were that funny. But he did have a good he did have a good vaudeville sense

about him and would really be funny with observations and things like that and had a good sense of humor. I remember this, too. I was sitting there with my dad with him and Joe like that and had a good sense of humor i remember this too i was sitting there with my dad with him and um joe was trying to tell my dad he was trying to pay a compliment in that he he he looked at my dad and he says steve he's pushy and i my dad goes what and he goes he's pushy and then i think my dad figured out he meant pushy, not pussy. Pushy, meaning tenacious.

And I just remember my dad looking at him like, what the hell? But yeah, Joe was a good guy. He was a good guy, just not that popular. And then he ended up being the last stooge. And his, now I'm not saying this to toot my horn, but I'm only saying it because it's true. When he died there, you know, he didn't have much money. I mean, that's one of the reasons they sued. I mean, he just wasn't getting any money from the Stooges Corporation at all.

And his step-sons were essentially supporting Joe, and they filed that suit. But his wife claimed that they didn't have money to even acquire the headstone. So one of the munchkins from the—now, this is true. One of the munchkins from the— I know it sounds bizarre. It's more and more surreal. I know.

He was bad enough imagining Curly Joe DeReeder in his underwear. Or that he compared you to Joe Best? Yes. Exactly. And this is true, though. One of the munchkins from The Wizard of Oz who lived in St. Louis, and I grew up with him. That's how I got into midgets. I don't know if you should admit to that on the air.

I think that's a law. Mild fascination, mild. I think that's a law. Again, mild fascination, mild. But this guy, Mickey Carroll, he was a midget, and he worked in The Wizard of Oz. His family business, after he quit show business, was making headstones. And so I told him about this. He said, look, I'll make the headstone. You guys pay for the installation.

And me and a few fans, we the money together uh and and gave it to mickey he had this this black marble headstone made with joe's face on it and did it with um it was like an etching of his face and did it with uh gene dorita joe's wife and they wanted on there the last stooge and then that was that was his gravestone. A lot of fans visit that gravestone, too. It's kind of unusual, but he was The Last Stooge. The Last Stooge. Now, did you know Vernon Dent? Yeah, I think he was great.

Yeah, Vernon Dent, he always played like gangsters in the Stooges movies. He was a big guy, big husky guy, tough guy. Yeah. Oh, absolutely, yeah. So what do you know about Vernon Dent? You know what I know about, well, of course, what Stooges fans see of him, which is, you know, in almost every other Curly Short and Shep.

But one time I got hold of his wife on the phone. Her name was, I think, Eunice, Eunice Dent. And this was, you know, long after he had died. And I was so surprised. I couldn't believe she was still alive. And she told me all about him. I just couldn't get enough asking about him, how his hair was snow white when he got old. He went blind.

And he was pretty heavy, still heavy. He said he was diabetic. That's why he went blind. And he didn't take control of his diabetes. So it progressed like that. And I remember she said that he was also a dog lover and that Curly gave them a little dog he had found somewhere on the road, brought it home, and gave it to Eunice and Vernon. I thought that was a kind of interesting detail. Curly used to collect dogs that he'd find, stray dogs.

That's true. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's what his, I knew one of his wives pretty well, and Elaine, his second wife, and she said that he would pick them up everywhere. I mean, they had several dogs, but he really, really loved playing with dogs and all types of dogs, not just one type or anything. And always had to have a backyard wherever he lived with plenty of space for the dogs. Always had to have a backyard wherever he lived with plenty of space for the dogs. And then would eventually find dogs out on the road and bring them on the train trips and that. But then he would have to sort of get rid of them, which would be like a heartache because he had enough at home. But, yeah, right now I'm working on a book on Curly. I think it's going to be an amazing book with a lot of rare color photography that nobody's ever seen.

Did our mutual friend Drew Friedman do something for the Curly book? He has promised me, and I'm going to hold him to it. Okay. That's what we heard. Absolutely. He told me that Larry Fine was something of a lady killer, Stephen. Is this true? I have a hard time wrapping my mind around it.

I know. It is kind of weird, isn't it? Here's a story that I heard and unfortunately did not make it into my book on Larry, One Fine Stooge. But this is true. A good friend of Larry's told me this. stooge but this is true um a good friend of larry's told me this that when larry was out on the road and his wife got she got wind of you know him fooling around and messing around while out on the road so there so she got pissed at him and said, okay, this is what we're going to plan here. When Larry would call home, or if she would call him, let's say in Kansas City at 1030 at night, just to make sure he's doing okay in that, the signal was she said, okay, say it, say it.

And Larry would have to say into the phone, I'm laying here with a dirty, rotten whore. So it was, you know, to either embarrass the whore that he was with, you know, or not, if he was alone. So he would have to say that. She would say, say it, say it, if he was alone. So he would have to say that. She would say, say it, say it, and he'd have to say that. So, yeah, I guess Larry did get around a little bit. And Larry's wife, though, went a little nutty, didn't she? Wasn't she an alcoholic? Yeah, yeah.

Well, yeah, aren't we all? But she got... No would be violent. She, you know, she would throw things at him and like ceramic ashtrays and, you know, she got, and she, I guess, just the filthiest mouth on her and would get really, really drunk and then send Larry out for Chinese food at three in the morning, you know. Now, did Mo visit Vernon Dent toward the end of his life? I heard he used to visit him a lot. I don't know. I really don't know. And, you know, those are questions that I, gosh, if I had known Mo, i would have really gotten in there and started asking questions you know i want to know if you ever met chaplin i want to know if he ever uh you did he interact with you know other great comedians and that that type of thing and there's some fans that would would get in there and and meet with mo and ask certain questions

but you know damn i wish i could have gotten in there to really and same with larry you know and that you know where were they when kennedy was shot where this you know, damn, I wish I could have gotten in there to really. And same with Larry, you know. And, you know, where were they when Kennedy was shot? You know, there's a lot of questions. Do you suspect one of them? What do you mean? No, no, but you know what I mean. Your Larry fight is impeccable, by the way. It's Billy West good, I dare say.

Now, getting back to The Wizard of Oz, what about that great story of that if you watch The Wizard of Oz, one of the munchkins hung himself, and you could see him hanging in the movie. I know. That story didn't start until like around the 80s. I'd love to know who just really was the root source of that thing. I'd love for it to be true.

It's so good. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's nice to look around, but, you know, it never happened. I mean, lots of weird stuff happened on that set, but not bad. Frank and I were talking that Judy Garland started the rumor that all of the Mondrains. The Jack Parr show, right? Right, Steven? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, you know, in the last 25 years, I had to watch these these midgets go on appearances. That's not the correct term. It's munchkin. It's right. You see a small person call them a munchkin. Munchkin. Yes. Oh, God. That's the politically correct term. Well, it's true.

And the dwarves, oh, my God, they really get after me for calling, you know, referring to the midgets as midgets. But the thing of it is, all the midgets are gone. You see what I'm saying? So it's the dwarves that want to wipe away the term midget. But the midgets never minded being called midgets. What about fidgets? That's what's so weird about it. That's a rascal homage.

But wait, wait. So is there like a war between midgets and dwarfs? Yes, there is. I mean, let's just put it out there. You know, there is. I mean, let's just put it out there. You know, there is. Because, and midgets. And this is true. Because the midgets were proportionally correct.

You know what I mean? And got a lot of roles because that's what the studio wanted. You know? And the dwarves should get pissed at the midgets. So dwarves... Oh, yeah. Dwarves were like deformed midgets? That's a way to put it.

You know, they're proportionally incorrect. So the midgets are like you and I, only miniature. That's the way to, you know. That's the way to figure it, you know. Or I try to tell people dwarfs are the Oompa Loompas. The midgets are the munchkins. They love that, too. That's how you can tell, you know.

Hey, I heard that that beetlelejuice is not happy with you. Go ahead, Steve. I heard that Beetlejuice is not happy with you. Oh. That's right. I wonder why. I heard that through the midget grapevine. I don't know what you did to him, but he's not happy.

Now, what category would Beetlejuice be in? I think he's a midget. From what I've seen, I think he's a midget. Yeah. Now, we'll get back to the Wizard of Oz, but I forget his name now. Dr. Loveless from Wild Wild West. Oh, Michael.

Oh, yeah. Michael Dunn. Michael Dunn, yeah. Very good. What do you know about Michael? No, he's a dwarf. He's a dwarf. I don't know much about him. He died young, you know.

I heard he was a nice guy. I heard he was a nice guy. Oh, and he was in Chip and Fools. Oh, yeah, he did a lot of films. Yeah, good little actor. Absolutely. So you worked with the Munchkins on a book, Stephen, and they were not drunks.

You want to dispel that myth. It's true. It's true. I mean, yeah. You know, Judy Garland, she goes on this show, okay, and she is, you know, half-crocked herself. And she says, well, they were all drunks. They were two inches tall. They asked her out on dates and stuff like that.

And, you know, she's trying to be funny and all that. But then over the years, that developed into this huge myth and urban legend and all that stuff. And so I felt bad because I know that the Munchkins entrusted me in my book to make sure to try to straighten the story. But no matter where they went, everybody asked them that question. So, you know know they were embarrassed and i i in a way i blame that on judy garland really for pet perpetuating that putting that out there and making those little people suffer uh with having to answer those stupid questions you know what i mean were you drunk so where was everybody drunk were there orgies and stuff like that and so we used to make fun that you know like

margaret pellegrini one of the very uh uh uh more prominent little people that that went on tours and stuff like that uh and was one of the munchkins i would joke with her and say well you weren't invited to the parties you know and and we make a joke out of it, but they were really embarrassed by it. You know, most most all of them were embarrassed. There were a few that were drunks and there were one of them showed up on the set with a gun. And, you know, they had to get that taken care of quickly. But, you know, they have handcuffs small enough. And, you know, some of those people were so small.

I mean, they had to help them on the toilets, literally, because they would fall in. They were that small. And they had to help them with their costumes and, you know, help them go to the bathroom. And they had special tables for their lunches and stuff like that really you know low because these the midgets were the ones that we saw in the past 25 years that attended festivals and things like that they all grew you know they grew after the wizard of oz now they all lived i it seems like most of them lived to a ripe old age. Right, which is another difference between dwarfs and midgets. You rarely ever see an old dwarf.

I've never watched that. I'm not making this up. I'm not making this up. But you will see old midgets. They're just like us. And right now, there's only one munchkin left, Jerry Marin, who was the lollipop munchkin. He's 94, and he's the last one.

The last one. Ruth Ducini passed, right? She was the last female munchkin? Ruth Ducini, that's right. Exactly, yeah. And, in fact, they both did a little bit of publicity last year for Warner Brothers' 75th anniversary stuff, which was a year before.

The actual anniversary is in about four weeks. That's exactly to the date, 75 years after it premiered at Grauman's. But they did something last year for the promotion of the new box set and all that, and they couldn't get the two Munchkins together. Jerry lived here in L.A., Ruth came in from Vegas, and it was really nostalgic because they were doing separate sort of promos, different days. But Ruth said, she told me, Steve, I want to see Jerry one last time. And privately, I took her over to where Jerry was staying.

And they got together and had a visit. And that was the last time the two Munchkins got together. And it was really, really sad in a because uh they were about to leave and and you know jerry gives her a hug and says i don't want to be the last one you know and it was it was very warm and and my god i almost started crying but they hugged and they knew that would be the last time they'd see each other and ruth died not long after that and jerry was the last one and i i went over to where he's living and i said jerry you're the last one. And I went over to where he was living, and I said, Jerry, you're the last one. And he said, oh, she died, huh?

And I said, yeah, you're the one. And it was weird because when I researched the Munchkins years ago in the 80s, there was 33 of them still alive, and I always wondered right then, who's going to be the last one? Oh, wow. You know, but to me, it's kind of exciting that the last one is the most beloved munchkin of them all. If you ever see somebody do a parody of the munchkins, who do they do?

The lollipop munchkin. You know what I mean? Now, is it true that Toto, the little dog Toto, was paid more than the Munchkins were. Yeah, that's true. They didn't know it at the time, but yeah, that's true. Jerry Marin was in a lot of other things,

wasn't he, Stephen? I seem to remember him from an Odd Couple episode. Yeah, in fact, Frank, that is one of his most, that's one of the proudest things he's done in his career. Yeah, he was funny. Yeah, and he played like a little

racing, what do you call it? Yeah, he was a jockey who was giving Oscar and Felix tips on the horses. His name was Harry Tolman. Right, that's right. Exactly. And he'd be in this trench coat and he he'd, like, you know, meet him at odd places and stuff. But he loved that role.

He loved that role. And, yeah, he did, oh, tons of stuff. He worked with the Marx Brothers, I think. Is he in At the Circus? At the Circus, right. Yeah. Yeah, he worked a lot. Tons of movies and films.

You know where he made his money? Because Jerry is a millionaire many times over. Really? And so, yeah, you know where he made all his money? He did McDonald's commercials in the late 60s for about 10 years, and he played Mayor McCheese and Hamburglar. Sometimes the, what was it? The Grimace? No, not Grimace.

The one that, well, the Hamburglar. Hamburglar. It's a robble, robble, you know. Oh, yeah. And so, you know, you remember, you guys saw the same thing as me every Saturday mornings. Sure. Those commercials were all over the place,

and they did those things for 10 years. And holy mackerel, the money that he made on those was unbelievable. And that's that. Yeah, that and investments in Hollywood. Now, tell us stuff about the Munsters. You wrote a book about the Munsters. And we had Butch Patrick on the other day. Oh, did you?

Yeah. He's great. He's great. Yeah. Butch, the the other day. Oh, did you? Yeah. He's great. He's great. Butch, the first time I met him, I meet him at a... He and Al Lewis were doing an appearance at a circus

in Indiana. And I drive up there and, you know... Butch, he won't remember this, but the first time I meet him, he's... I come into his hotel room and he lights up a joint. And little Eddie Munster lit up a joint. Yeah. And it wasn't so bad. I didn't care. But number one, he didn't offer me any.

So he was stingy with it. But I'm thinking, oh, my God, I'm here, you know't offer me any. Number two, so he was stingy with it. But I'm thinking, oh, my God, I'm here, you know, as a writer. I could write about this if I wanted. I didn't, you know, but I thought, you know, my God, he's pretty trusting, you know, but I didn't write about that. And he's kind of sober now these days, I know. But The Monsters is one of my favorite books um the only regret was was fred i mean i i tried desperately to contact him which i did and he turned me down for an interview i did talk with him um but he he was kind of mean in a way you know his agent his publicist everybody

kept giving me no, no, no. He doesn't want to talk about the Munsters. But I thought, if I'm going to get rejected, I want to be rejected by him. So finally, I hunted him down and got him on the phone. And I told him what I was doing, and I asked him for an interview, and he said, no, I just, no, no, I don't think so. And I tried every way to practically beg him, and finally it got down to, you know, when you were starting out in your career, didn't anybody ever give you a break?

And he said, no. And that was it, you know. He just told me no. And so he just didn't. But at the end of the conversation, and then he asked me where I got his number, and I explained to him that I hunted it down because he was listed under his girlfriend's number at that time. And they were living together on Bleeker Street in the village over there. And he said, oh, you should have been a private investigator instead of a writer.

You know, he's somewhat kind, but he just didn't want to talk about the Munsters. Now, I found out later that he had a son that died, that drowned in their pool during the Munsters production. And so I'm thinking later on, I'm thinking, you know, he have thought i i knew it and that i would be getting into that topic which i wouldn't have um and you know i would have been asking the more the the comic questions about the makeup and the production and all that stuff but maybe he just didn't want to go there because of that. So I had never heard this story. Nor me. I haven't heard it either.

Yeah. He had a son who died in the... So the Munsters had a swimming pool on their show. Yeah. Well, his private, you know, his private pool. And yeah, his son drowned in the pool. I'm not exactly sure of the exact circumstances, but it was during the production of The Monsters. And so, of course, he was devastated by this, and the other cast members knew it.

And so when I found out, I think Butch is the one that told me about it, as a matter of fact. And so I didn't really get into that in the book. I don't remember what the... I revised the book later, and I think maybe I did mention it in that. Fred was dead by that time. And there were also rumors about an affair between Beverly Owen and Fred during,

you know, she did the first 13 episodes as Marilyn, and they lived together. They were friends in New York. She came out to L.A. at the same time. She would babysit his kids, that type of thing, and there were rumors that they had an affair, and that that's one of the reasons she also left.

So that's, you know, allegedly... I'm sorry, Steve. The official story they always give is that she was going back to her boyfriend that she couldn't stand to be apart from. Right. That's the official story. I see. So there you go. But, you know, what are you going to say?

But, you know, they remained friends. Beverly and Fred Gwynn remained friends all the way to the end. And I spoke with her about the Munsters, and she seemed to say that she was very heartbroken, just didn't want to be in L.A., and wanted to leave and asked to get out of there, and she did. But, you know, I tell you, though, the best interview all the way through, and the guy that was the most encouraging to me was Al Lewis. I dedicated the book to him and my grandparents because he was my favorite character. Over and above Fred, you know, everybody has their favorite monster, but mine was Al Lewis.

And he always treated me so well and encouraged me. Remember when I graduated from high school, he says, you've got to go to college. You get yourself in college. You've got to do it. That's the only way you can make a success for yourself. And that type of thing. He was a great, great guy. Now,

they were friends, Fred Gwynn and Al Lewis. I heard. They were. And they had a falling out somewhere along the way. That's what I heard. Yeah. I'm not exactly sure really what it was, but it was right around that time.

They were still friendly when Al opened his restaurant there in the village. But I don't know exactly what else happened. I don't think Al even quite knew what it was. He wanted to be friends with Fred, but I think Fred's wife sort of pulled

him away from the whole Munster stuff and got him away from trying to do some more serious acting and things like that or anything. And so even though they were friends with Beverly Owen, he pulled away from Al. And Al didn't quite understand it. But yeah, they were good friends. I mean, the best of friends at one time. But you know how it is, you know. Yeah, they met on, I guess, on Car 54.

Yeah, yeah. And a great comedy team. They were just, their timing was terrific. They were a great pair. Yeah, weren't they? Yeah, they really were. We talked about it with Butch. What do you know about Abbott and Costello?

Yeah, weren't they? Yeah, they really were. We talked about it with Butch. What do you know about Abbott and Costello? Well, I mean, my memory's kind of faded a little bit, but years ago, another writer and I, John Laughlin, we put together a book called The Abbott and Costello Scrapbook, and I'm proud to say I think it's one of the better books on their career. And, you know, we just got up, you know,

after interviewing a lot of people that were still alive back then you know sheldon leonard and family members and and and even bud spud abbott's sister and things like that it was such a sad story you know i mean how they lost all their money and just they gambled it all away and the IRS just you know ate them alive it was just so sad and Lou was sad and Bud was sad I mean they were both like really warm fathers and and loved their families and provided for their families but then how it split up and and you know, you know, it's interesting. It's Ken Berry, you know, from F Troop. Yes.

And he was in the show, the last show that they did in Vegas. So this is in the late 50s, just before they broke up. Well, right when they broke up. And he was one of the dancers in the show. And I interviewed him about this, you know. And he said that, you know, Bud drank a lot at that point. And that's why Lou got pissed and said, that's it. And

one of the knights just said, that's it, I'm not working again, and they parted ways, and that was it. And you know, the ending was just so sad. It's weird, but it's kind of funny. I found Abbott and Costello sort of in reverse.

I didn't watch the movies. I watched the cartoon shows from Hanna-Barbera and then went backwards. You know what I mean? Oh, the Stu Irwin. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, Gilbert and I talk about the awful Bud and Lou movie, Stephen, with Buddy Hackett and Harvey Korman.

Oh, my God. Lou movie, Stephen, with Buddy Hackett and Harvey Korman? My old time. Actually, this is my favorite. It's my old time favorite death scene. Buddy Hackett as the dying Lou Costello is there. And Artie Johnson as his agent comes in. I think his agent's name was Irving. Eddie Sherman. Eddie, Eddie.

Yeah. And he sneaks in a strawberry malted. And Buddy Hackett goes, you know, Eddie, I had a lot of strawberry malted in my day, but this one's the best. And then he dies. He dies dead. But malts.

Yeah, isn't that great? I know, what a death scene. It's a painful movie because you're watching them do Who's On First. It's like they've never watched it before. It's a painful movie because you're wanting them to do who's on first. It's like they've never watched it before. It's true. It was so slow. It was like they handed them the script right then and they said, action. And they go, oh, just do this.

Like you'd think they had no idea who Abbott and Costello were. Oh, it's true. I think the casting on that was, on theory, on paper, was great. But you get these guys together. But Buddy Hackett was too busy being Buddy Hackett to be anybody else. And I remember Buddy Hackett, Matt. It's like, rather than, what's the guy's name on first base? What's the guy's name on second base?

You know, that quick patter, that musical way about it, it was like, what's the guy's name on first base? It was. It's so bad. It really is. It's one of our favorite bad biopics. It really is. And you one of our favorite bad biopics. It really is. And you know, there's some guys,

a buddy and I just watched the Martin Lewis one. I liked it. It was really good. With Sean Hayes. Right. Did you guys like it? I liked it. Sean Hayes now has the distinction of playing Jerry Lewis and Larry Fine.

That's true. Isn't that amazing? Isn't that amazing? Who, in your opinion, was responsible for the surreal quality of the Abbott and Costello series? Because I talk about it with Drew all the time. Gilbert and I have talked about it much more so than the movies. It's dreamlike.

Yes. There's something. It's almost Dada. It's dreamlike. Yes. There's something... It's almost Dada. You know, it's very, very strange. And I know Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld were heavily influenced by it. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, the success is all due to Bingo the Chimp.

I mean, come on. Now, tell us about Sid Fields. Was Sid Fields one of the people behind... Because Drew says that Sid Fields had a lot to do with the tone of that show. Yes, that's what I was told. That's what I was told. And I know Jim Mulholland was a great writer. It was Carson and Letterman.

The monologue writer. He interviewed Sid Fields, I know. And got a lot of details out of him. And, yeah, I think so. And Bud and Lou were just, I think at that point in their career, were interested in not so much memorizing lines or new routines, but how can we work in the old routines? So I think that they put on the shoulders of Sid Fields a lot of that to just come up with stuff and let's tie these shows together because they're so loose uh you know there's there's nothing to them well

personally I I liked Hilary Brooke I thought she was great and and and of course Besser I I watch for his scenes you know because they're so bizarre well there was one Seinfeld episode where I guess Kramer and Newman are arguing about something and Seinfeld goes, boys, boys. Oh, he does the Sid Fields take?

Yeah, yeah. Wasn't the Newman character basically created to be stinky? You know, I never thought about that, but I think you're right. Yeah. The antagonist that shows up and he's, you know,

he's chunky and he's... You know, the thing about the A&C show as a kid watching it, it's just... There was a darkness to it. There was a cruelty to it. Oh, yes. Yes. You know, the one where Lou is trying to celebrate his birthday. Oh, my God. I was just thinking about that.

That one depressed me as a kid. Yeah, me too. Yeah, with Mr. Bocigaloo. Bocigaloo. What does he come from? I remember he makes him the cake. Oh, it's so awful. Yeah.

Yes, it is bad. It is. It's an element of cruelty and sadism. Yeah, I was a kid, and I was depressed by that one. It was disturbing. And the music in the background that they put in is just so bad also that it didn't help. But I will say this for the show, because it is entertaining,

but when they go to the old actor's home and they do Who's On First, that is one of the better of the versions ever home, they do Who's on First. That is one of the better of the versions ever put on film of Who's on First. I much prefer that than that, you know, gay 90s riverboat one they did on Universal, you know. Yeah, much, much better version. But, oh, yeah, I mean, the show was great. And Hilary Brooke, you know, to me, played it so perfectly, just perfectly straight.

You know, always calling him Lewis. And you could see the influences on Seinfeld and Larry David. Now, you know, this this I don't even know if we can use it, but it's something that everybody who knows old showbiz talks about. And it's perfect that lightning just struck. It's like a Frankenstein movie. I just heard thunder. Thunder is happening right as I mention this. And so in two words, Danny Thomas. Oh, God.

Who could you be referring to, Gilbert? That he had a popular sitcom. Yes. Yes. Well, look, you know, I don't know what I should tell you guys, but I'm going to do it. And I'm going to put this on your shoulders whether you want to use this or not. You know, yes. But, you know, strangely, I mean, this is legendary.

And I heard about this years and years ago. And, of course, even if you Google it, you know, eggs Danny Thomas style. It's right there. And years ago, a friend of mine told me this story, and I said, oh, my God, you can't believe it. And the story is that Danny Thomas allegedly had sort of, you know, a proclivity for he liked a woman to shit in his mouth. Okay, and this was, there's no other way to put it. You know, and this was something that he liked. So, you know, I'm kind of thinking, okay.

And people in show business, you know, I mean, it's as well known as Milton Berle's schlong. So, you know, and they call it. Every school kid knows this. It's as well-known as Milton Berle's schlong. So, you know, and they call it. Every school kid knows this. It's true. See, I like to have an intellectual joke. I pride myself on good taste and stuff that's really subtle, and you've got to think about it.

Yeah. Well, this is the story. So he liked women to shit in his mouth. In his it. Yeah. Well, this is the story. So he liked women to shit in his mouth. In his mouth. Yeah. This was his fetish. Okay. Now, if I can argue with you.

Sure. I heard he liked to lie on the floor and have women shit on a glass coffee table, which would have been a lot more decent. True. Now, I heard this was allegedly attributed to Jerry Lewis. Jerry Lewis? Yes. The glass table story. The glass table story had evidently nothing to do with Danny Thomas.

Now, let me tell you Now wait, wait. When the girls were shitting on the coffee table over Jerry Lewis, is it true that he was going Yeah, hi, my hi, my

with the thing, with the doody and the poison. Hi, you. the thing with the doody and the poison. I'll make a big brown doody on the thing, on the table, where you gotta wipe off with a sponge.

I said, you know, I can see it. I can just see it. And I say that, though, not because Jerry Lewis was an ass to me. I have heard that attributed to him. Lady, lady, can you squeeze out a bigger duty in the thing? On the table, not in the mouth like with Danny. Oh, God. Oh, God.

That's funny, Hillary. Can you take a shit on me like Dean Martin used to when we were a team? Oh, Gilbert, God. That is great. I like when people shit on me. Why do I shit on Danny Thomas? Oh, Danny boy. Is that amazing?

Oh, yes. You came to tell me you'd never heard that about Jerry Lewis? Allegedly. Allegedly. Now, someone else told me that to make it... Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I got to tell you about the Danny Thomas part, though. People are thinking, I'm sure, people are thinking, oh, come on, he just made this up. But, you know, we had a mutual friend, which was Sid Melton. Sid Melton, yes.

Sid Melton. Do you remember Sid? Of course. I met him a couple of times. He was very nice. Drew Friedman is obsessed with him. And Sid, I got to know him when I was working on a book on Green Acres. And we used to go to lunches a lot.

And then he started sort of relying on me to drive him places and stuff like that and take his dog to the vet. And I heard you had a run-in with his dog and all kinds of stuff. Well, Sid, once I got real comfortable with him after a few years, you know, he always talked about Danny Thomas, and he was on the Danny Thomas show. He was best friends with Danny Thomas. And so I thought, okay, I can ask him about this.

So we're at lunch one day, and I said, Sid, I'm going to ask you a question about Danny Thomas. And he says, I know what you're going to ask. And I said, you do? And he goes, I know what you're going to ask. And I said, you do? And he goes, yeah. And this is exactly what he said. He said, you mean the feces as an appetizer? And I said, oh, my God.

It sounded like a main course. The way I heard it. And so, Sid, I looked at him Tony Fields Tony Fields so I said to Sid I said to Sid oh my god you know I couldn't believe he said this before I got it out

and he said this before I got it out. And he said, oh, that's that's what Danny Thomas. I can't believe I said it before she got it out. Got it out. Wow. So I asked Sid, I said, are you serious? He says, this is exactly what he said to me. I know it to be true because I knew his mistress and she told me what

he liked to do. And I said oh my god. I said what do you think about that? He goes well everybody's got their own thing. And that was it. Now he was Danny Thomas' best friend. So that's that.

And I'll put my hand on the Bible. That happened. Now, is it true that Danny Thomas' mistress, before the date, would go to the hamburger hamlet and eat a couple of plates of Angel Ant Puff? That's a callback. Oh my God. And is it true that one time she was constipated and Danny Thomas cried,

you don't love me anymore. Oh my god. Oh man. I heard her farts made a sound of da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da I'm going to move this on, Steve. You wrote a book about green acres. And I understand you haven't. I heard Ava Gabor used to shit. used to shit that's why you had the pitchfork we understand you have an

ava Gabor story. Not that one. Yeah. That Jerry Lewis used to shit on Ava Gabor. Ava Gabor. Hey, Ava. Open your mouth. Yeah. Oh, Ava.

She was something. Here. Get ready for a green acre. Oh, yeah. She was just something. Oh, man. She, yeah, Ava Gabor. I do have a good Ava Gabor story. She, I used to have this book on Green Acres.

And she was nice. She was really nice to me. I interviewed her at her house in this mansion, you know. And she was great. She was really nice to me. I interviewed her at her house in this mansion, you know. And she was great. She was great. But at one point when I was interviewing her, I brought over, which is what I do a lot of times, I'll bring over a stack of pictures from, like, that show or something. And Ava was sitting on her couch, and she's just looking through the pictures.

And usually the pictures, like old publicity pictures, will spark some memories and that kind of thing. And she's sitting there, and I'm asking her questions, and she's looking through the pictures and commenting on them, and she just starts making a separate pile. Just, you know, just making a separate pile. That's what used to happen with Dan and Tom. making a separate pile. That's what used to happen with Dan and Tom.

His mistress made a separate pile. One for Danny and the other for Jerry. Who'd go, oh, you thought of me with the thing, with the duty. Oh, God.

I knew as soon as I said that. I knew that you were going to say something. I should have said that. Choose your words carefully from this point on. Allegedly. Allegedly. Now, just before we wrap, I have one question. What did you think of that scene in the Bud and Lou movie

where Costello goes, Hey, Hobbit, can you take a crap on me? Could you watch out about movement in my mouth? Okay. We've been talking. That's your closer.

You got a close on my podcast with that? Come on. And is it true that Lou Costello, when he was taking a dump, would force it out by going, I bet there's truth to that, Gilbert. I can see it. We've been talking to Steve Cox, writer of endless books on old Hollywood.

Steve, will you come back and talk about It's a Wonderful Life next time? Yeah, please. We know where that will go. life next time. Yeah, please. Something else, please. Have you heard It's a Wonderful Life is what Danny Thomas said when the girl was shitting on him.

Oh, Lord. Thank you. Steve, thanks for doing it. Thank you, Steve Cox. You're a trooper. No problem. Thanks, Lord. Thank you. Steve, thanks for doing it. Thank you, Steve Cox. You're a trooper. No problem. Thanks, guys. I had a great time.

Stephen Cox, look for his books. Call me any time. Look for his books on Amazon, folks. He's written every book imaginable. Johnny Carson, Beverly Hillbillies, Gilligan's Island. Thank you, buddy. Hey, thanks, guys. No, really.

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