Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - 276. James Burrows

Episode Date: September 9, 2019

Emmy-winning director James Burrows talks about the importance of the "straight man," the influence of his legendary dad Abe Burrows, the societal impact of "Will & Grace" and the winning formulas behind "Taxi," "Cheers," "Friends" and "The Mary Tyler Moore Show." Also, Andy Kaufman comes to dinner, Woody Harrelson changes the game, Norman Lear writes a fan letter and James meets John Steinbeck, Truman Capote and Groucho Marx. PLUS: Sydney Pollack! Remembering Ruth Gordon! The comedy of Patchett and Tarses! The generosity of Jay Sandrich! And James directs the "All in the Family" reboot! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Open a Questrade first home savings account and help that future come faster. The FHSA is a tax-free account where all your investment gains are yours to keep and put towards your first home. With Questrade, you can open an FHSA online. No bank appointment needed. Hi there, I'm Jackie the Joke Man Marling,

and I've had the exquisite pleasure of once again being on Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast with the wonderful Gilbert Gottfried and and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast. I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santopadre, and our engineer, Frank Verderosa. Our guest this week is a producer, occasional actor, and one of the most prolific, accomplished and admired directors in the history of popular entertainment. He's directed thousands of hours of primetime television on landmark shows such as The Mary Tyler Moore Show, The Bob Newhart Show, Taxi, Frasier, Friends, The Big Bang Theory, Will and Grace, and of course, a show he also co-created Cheers. Occasionally known as the Pilot Whisperer, he's also directed the pilot for hit series like Two and a Half Men, Caroline in the City, Dharma and Greg, Dear John, Veronica's Closet, Mike and Molly, and Two Broke Girls. Along the way, he's won eight Primetime Emmys, five Director's Guild Awards, and received Life Achievement from both DGA and the Television Critics Association. And in 2016, he was honored with the primetime NBC special entitled

Must See TV, an old star tribute to James Burroughs. old star tribute to James Burroughs. In a long and very successful career, he's worked with and directed everyone from John Cleese to Betty White, from Tony Randall to Sidney Pollack, and Elton John to Andy Kaufman. Wow. He's also worked with many of our previous podcast guests, including Rosanna Arquette, Ed Asner, Buck Henry, Hal Linden, Andrea Martin, Michael McKeon, Stephen Weber, Kevin Levine,

Ken Levine. Ken Levine, and Joe Pantoliano. Please welcome to the podcast an industry giant, a living legend, and a man who somehow managed to direct over 1,000 episodes of television without ever working with me.

Ladies and gentlemen, James Burroughs. Bullet dodged. Well, yes, absolutely. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you, James. Thanks for doing this. Does this count as working with Gilbert?

Yeah, I think we could chalk that up. No, it's just funny. Tell him to change his shirt. That'll never happen. Hey, tell James the direction that David Steinberg gave you on Mad About You. He'll get a kick out of that. Oh, yes. I once had to say something and run off.

And David Steinberg said, could you run a little faster? And I said, yeah, I guess I could run faster. And he goes, no, no, I don't need you to run faster. Maybe a little more gracefully. And I said, no, no, I don't need you to run faster. Maybe a little more gracefully. And I said, gracefully? And he goes, no, like less choppy, less shuffling. And then finally he threw his hands in the air and he said, can you run less Jewish? So obviously you had to run right to left.

Yeah, yes. Quick, see what you missed out on, James? We were talking. Go ahead, Gil. Yeah, no, we were just, we were going to say, Frank and I were saying, maybe we'll start off with you telling our audience what your father, who your father was and what he accomplished.

My father was a gentleman named Abe Burroughs who was a radio writer in California in the late 30s and 40s. And then he was asked to rewrite the book for Guys and Dolls in 1950 by a man he worked with named Ernie Martin, who was a radio producer back in L.A., and my dad came and rewrote the book to Guys and Dolls, and so he stayed on Broadway and he became a Broadway director and playwright

writing other than Guys and Dolls. Can't Can. How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. 40 Carats. Happy Hunting. Cactus Flower. So he became a legend on Broadway.

Very much so. We got a kick out of the fact where Gilbert was saying, you know, because we were watching interviews with you, and you were just a kid watching his dad work. A lot of the glamour of it was lost on you as a kid, and certainly the glamour of the people you were meeting. Yeah, I had no idea. kid and certainly the glamour of the people you were meeting. Yeah, I had no idea. I was occasionally trundled off to rehearsals and would go to some of my dad's parties and sit around with people who I had no idea who they were.

Literally, I sat next to dinner at dinner with John Steinbeck. Amazing. I sat with Truman Capote, with Comden and Green. Kaufman. George Kaufman was my dad's first director. Yeah. And so I grew up in that aura and didn't quite register with me

who all these people were until I got a lot older. And so meeting these people was just meeting a bunch of boring old people to you as a kid. And going to work was like if your father worked in a grocery store. Yeah, yeah. I always describe, you know, what I did was, you know, my father was a tailor and he taught me how to make a suit when I didn't even know I was learning how to make a suit. I love that. I love that.

No, I know the good thing about these people were they were funny. My dad's friends were mainly funny. Even Steinbeck was funny. And so they didn't spurn me as a young child. They talked to me and were very gracious. And so I grew up around the intelligentsia of New York. Among those people that didn't really mean anything to you as a kid, I understand, were Danny Kaye and Groucho? Yeah.

My dad was close friends friends especially close with Sylvia Sylvia Fine who was Danny's wife and I did meet Groucho once with my dad it was I was old enough to know who he was and he

he made me laugh I love that I mean I remember I met him at He made me laugh. I love that. What do we have? I mean, I remember I met him at Chasen's, which was a famous restaurant in L.A. before it became a Bristol Farms. And I met him, I had dinner with my dad there, and we were walking out, and there was Groucho. So we sat down at Groucho's table and he talked to me as Groucho, but I'll never forget Adolf

Zucker, who was retired as president of Paramount Pictures, was about 95 years old and he came kind of shuffling through the restaurant, and Groucho from the table said, Adolf, Adolf, hasta mañana, hasta mañana, waving his hand, calling him over to the table, which was, you know, it was just, it was so mean. It was so mean.

But, you know, what could you do but laugh? it was so mean it was so mean and uh but you know what could you do but laugh because Groucho was he was that way he was really funny how bizarre

and you were Gilbert and I got a kick out of the fact that as a kid you showed up on not only the Sam Levinson show this is the only podcast by the way

where you can guarantee that the two hosts will know who Sam Levinson was yeah I know but also on on Edwardward morrow edward r morrow's person to person a clip i saw on your tribute special yeah i was uh i said my infamous line uh uh when ed edward r morrow asked me what what do i want to do and i said i haven't made up my decision yet which is is I could have said I haven't decided yet but uh you know as a 16 15 14 year old I went to show that I was totally illiterate now your your father was called in front of the House of Un-American Activities during the McCarthy scare.

Yes. Yes. Because your mom was a good old lefty who made you and your sister march in the May Day Parade. Yeah, we did march in the May and liberals were communists back then. That's just what it was. It was another term. And they went to parties and stuff like that, and my dad was called before the House Un-American Activities Committee, yes. Yeah.

It's fascinating, too, because you wound up working with blacklisted actors. You wound up working with Gilford, Jack Gilford on Taxi. I did. Yeah. I did. Yeah. Did you discuss? No.

No. That was, you know, there were hard feelings all around with all those people. I'll bet. And it was not passed on to the kids, and the kids didn't carry a grudge or anything like that. Jack was very good friends with my mom, and Zero Mostel was also good friends with my mom. So, you know, it was a really tough time and people were called in front of this committee for just living their lives. And it was, I can't imagine the position my dad was in.

You put him in that, you've said it, he was in an impossible position because if he said too much or he said too little, he could lose either way. Right, right. Yeah. And it was one of those times that, I mean, can you really? I mean, there's people who are looked upon as the enemies, but like they were under pressure too. Sure. Everybody was under pressure.

It was, you know, to use a modern term, it was a witch hunt. Sure. And because, you know, you had one guy kind of who was the energy behind this whole movement, and people were swept up, and it's not so dissimilar than what's going on now. Yeah, we always said we had Erwin Winkler here a couple of weeks ago,

and he made that picture, Guilty by Suspicion. He made a picture about the blacklist with De Niro, and we were talking about how it could come again. You also work with Lee Grant, who we had here. Oh, wow. Famously blacklisted. You work with Lee Grant on Faye. And she was as much of a victim as anybody. Took a big chunk out of her career. I know. A lot of people went to Europe and wrote under pseudonyms. And it was, I hope we never see that again. I hope not.

On a brighter note, we have to talk a little bit about something else that your dad did, which is the classic Duffy's Tavern. Right. Yeah. And I love these names. You know you can find these on YouTube, James? You can find some of the old clips. I found one with Burt Gordon, the Mad Russian, Arthur Treacher, and Slapsy Maxy Rosenblum.

Oh, shoot. Some great names from the past. Oh, my God. But an iconic show. Yeah, I don't think I was trundled to that rehearsals because I may have not been born at that point. But my dad was – I have a picture of me and my father and Ed Gardner. Yep. Who played Archie, the manager. And I think my middle name, I'm James Edward Burroughs, is after Ed.

Oh, I didn't know that. That's cool. And believe it or not, I have, he had an apron. Ed Gardner had an apron that he wore even though the show was on radio. He had this apron and anybody on the show signed the apron. And so Ed's mother embroidered all the signatures. So it came up for auction about 30 years ago at Christie's or Sotheby's, and I bought it, so I have it hanging.

And the names on there, there must be 250 names on there of the people who guested on the show. Wow. Tallulah Bankhead, Milton Berle. Everyone. Everyone. It was Harry S. Truman. Wow. Nelson Rockefeller.

It was crazy. Yeah, go ahead. Here's a simple and stupid question. Here's a simple and stupid question. What's the first sign that you're working with a bad director? What are the giveaway signs? I've never worked with a director. Yeah. Yeah.

But if – the first sign of a bad director is when an actor asks a question, they say, I don't know. You can't do that. You have to take a stance. You have to say – if he asks you a question, is this funny or not, you say, funny. And if it's not funny, you say, I was wrong. Don't say, I don't know. That's the worst thing you could do. And don't, you have to have an opinion and you have to be able to get what you want

in a way that's integral to yourself. See, I'm not a martinet. I'm not a strict director. I'm not saying you have to be here and you have to be there. You're not an upstager. Yeah, well, yeah. But you have to do that, and that's funny, and that's the way the joke's going to work.

I'm one who takes all kinds of suggestions from everybody, and I have certain ideas, and I make sure my ideas seem like they come from the actors so that you can do this wonderful creative effort that I try to do. So bad directors are people who succumb to pressure and don't have their own opinion and don't know what the particular piece or what the particular scene needs. And you said in one interview that you tell your actors, you tell your actors and writers, you give them a suggestion and you say, this may be great, this may be shit.

I do. I say that i say i say uh before i do you know when i started out i would do anything i i i when i when i started on television i would you know if a pilot was sent to me i'd do it because i didn't have much choice. But once I did Cheers and I got settled all hanging balls, I started to assert myself more. And whenever I do a pilot or work with new writers, I want to have a meeting with them where they think they're auditioning me, but I know I'm auditioning them. And I tell them where they think they're auditioning me, but I know I'm auditioning them. And I tell them what I think. And the important thing I want from the writer is I want them to defend their material, not

to be defensive about it. And then at the end of that meeting, or if I do work on the show, I will give them notes and I say, 50% of what I say is great, and 50% is shit, and it's your job to figure out which is which. I do that because a lot comes into my head. Sure. A lot of it's not right.

I don't have real writer's logic. I'll sell a scene for a good joke. I'll sell it down the river for, if I, if I have a good joke that may not be integral to the emotion in the piece and it's wrong. It's that joke is wrong. It shouldn't be in there. So I don't have writer's logic, but I do have a sense of what's funny, how to make something funny. And, uh, uh, I, you know, I speak a lot. One of the things you're known for, if I may say, correct me if I'm wrong, is coming up with physical business that makes the scene funnier. Because I've heard you say you don't think like a writer, you don't have a writer's approach.

But you also say you absorb so much by watching your father over the years. And you absorb so much working in summer stock, working in theater. Yeah. I cite that example of the Mary Tyler Moore episode with Lou and Rhoda, where you wound up putting them on a trunk. Yeah. Yeah, I, again, you know, I just have that gift. You know, I call it a gift. My dad used to, you know, say you can't learn funny, which is true. You have to be born that gift. I call it a gift. My dad used to say you can't learn funny, which is true.

You have to be born that way. And I luckily got that gene. So I kind of know what's funny. And in my first episode I ever directed, it was a Mary Tyler Moore. I was brought out to do one show, and I got a Mary Tyler Moore. I was brought out to do one show and I got a Mary Tyler Moore and the reading around the table when we read the script the first time it was like D plus

and I said I remember saying to Grant Tinker who brought me out, I said in a sea of Danish I get a bagel. And so I went down on stage and I started to rehearse and I just threw anything in I could. I invoked Shakespeare, I invoked Chekhov. And the last scene between Lou and Mary where they're sitting on a trunk there,

to me it was like, I think it was like I said it was like Three Sisters where they're thinking about going to Moscow. They have to move apart and stuff like that. So I remember doing everything possible to add stuff to this show. And I was lucky enough to be able to impress people, especially Mary, who was running the company. So my career took off after that. And now I have to ask you another question that's similar to the last. How do you, what are the signs of bad writing?

Well, in a comedy, it's not funny. And it's just, to me, it's just to me it's you know when I read something it's not the idea it's the execution of the idea Cheers is a show in a bar there have been a lot of shows set

in bars like Duffy's Tavern a couple of people sued us A couple of people sued us. A couple of people sued us when Cheers came out claiming that we stole it. And we would always say, get in line behind my dad. Wow. That's a perfect answer. Yeah.

And we never had a problem after that. But bad writing is people don't sound like they're talking to one another or they're not relating or they're – it doesn't come from the inside. It's all on the surface. So it's just something you have to feel. I can tell you what bad writing is, and the biggest example of bad writing is the play I wrote to get out of the Yale School of Drama.

Oh, that's funny. That's in a vault. And no one has the combination. No, no. You know, two other quick things about your dad before we move on, James. One that touched me, too. Obviously, you said I'm not a martinet, but you said that you learned,

there's so much psychology that, by the way, your description of working with actors, it's fascinating. But you said one of the things that you got from your dad was treating people with kindness. Yeah. That's one of the things you picked up. Yeah, he was, you know, when I was a young boy, I didn't see it. But then when I stage managed for him on, first one was Breakfast at Tiffany's and then on The Road Company of Cactus Flower and then on 40 Carats, I could see how he worked with the actors. And my dad was a playwright and a director, so he would rewrite a lot on his feet. But he would always treat everybody with kindness.

He would take all kinds of suggestions. He even took one from me that ended up in 40 carats. And he was not, you have to be over here and you have to be over here. It was, you know, I learned that from him. You know, walk in the door. That's what they say starting a scene.

You start over here, you start over there and let's see what happens. So, you know, that's, it was never, no, don't do it that way. It was never, I never got angry. I never said there's only one way to do it and it's my way.

Because actors, if you cast the right actors, you cast them because they're good and they're creative. So they can only make the piece better. And they can only make the piece better. And they can only make the piece better by having the freedom to experiment. And we do that a lot. I thought it was interesting too, and Gilbert will appreciate this, that your dad gave,

he mentored some young people. Like Dick Moore. Like your dad. Yeah, you. Yeah. Yeah, you as well. And Woody Allen. Yeah, well, yeah.

He wrote that letter on Woody's behalf. Yeah, my dad told me that Woody Allen came to see him in the 50s, I guess. And Woody's related by marriage to us. I'm not sure how, but he came to see my dad and he had 50 jokes. And before, you know, my dad read the jokes

and immediately sent Woody to the Sid Caesar show and to comedy of, what is it? I don't remember the name of it. Oh, of course. Your show of shows? Show of shows. Yeah, show of shows.

So he sent them over to Sid, and I said to my dad, why'd you do it? And he said, because there were 50 jokes I could have never thought of. Wow. So there was a connection there with Woody and my dad. And the last thing that you wanted to do was go into show business. Yeah, that's fascinating. You said you wanted no part of it. I didn't.

I went to music and art high school, believe it or not. I went to, it's now LaGuardia. It's combined with performing arts. But when I was 12 years old, I was in sixth grade, and people from the Metropolitan Opera came around, and they wanted to know who could sing My Country Tis of Thee. And I could. I sang it, and I got into the Metropolitan Opera Boys Chorus,

and I was in it from when I was 12 until I was 17, and we would go, you know, we would take the subway down there. We'd be in Geneschiki or La Boheme or Cavalry Rusticana or Carmen. It was our big opera. We had two big choruses. And so when I was going, applying to college, high school, I sang for music and art. And I got in on my voice, which was horrible.

I was, you know, I was a boy soprano and a bad one, but I got in. So I got into music and art. And then when I, you know, I couldn't sing. I couldn't be in the entertainment world. And then I went to Oberlin College, which had a great theater department. And I didn't want to do anything in the theater. I felt that my dad was a legend. I didn't want to go into that business.

In New York City, he was very, very prominent in the city. And I didn't want to do any of that. I didn't think I had any of the skill. It's a giant. And I didn't want to do any of that. I didn't think I had any of the skill. And then when I got out, they were calling up people for the Vietnam War, and I didn't want to be in that area either. So I had no heel spurs, so I couldn't get out that way. Nice touch, James.

Yeah, thanks. Lovely. And so my dad said, why don't you go to graduate school? So I got into the Yale School of Drama. And there I took a directing class with a man named Nico Sakharopoulos, who ran Williamstown and was a director on Broadway. And I kind of said, okay, I see what directing is, and maybe I can do that. So I kind of gravitated to that. But then when I got out, it was just, you know, what do I do now?

I said, well, maybe I'll stage manage. So stage manager is a guy who runs a show in the night and direct the understudies. So slowly through that process, I got more and more into directing. But initially, I was a government major at Oberlin, and I wanted nothing to do with the theater. And the rest is history. Yeah, luckily. This is a quick departure or a little side note, but you work with two people that we're interested in

in your road company days, Don Knotts and Zsa Zsa. Yes. Any quick memories of either of them? Yes, a lot of them. I know we could do a seven-hour show, James, with you easily. Yes, I know. I ran a theater in San Diego

called the Off-Broadway Theater, way Off-Broadway Theater. And I was the artistic director. And we would do star vehicles. We did Mr. Roberts with James Drury, the Virginian. James Drury, yeah. And then we did Goodbye Charlie with Joanne Worley, and we did Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf with Carl Betts

and all the big television stars back then. Sure. And then we did Last of the Red Hot Lovers with Don Knotts, and it was a big hit. So we brought it up to the Huntington Hartford, which is a theater here in L.A., and it ran for three or four weeks. So I got to know Don that way, and he was a wonderful man.

And so that's literally the only time I worked with Don. And then with Zsa Zsa. On 40 Carats, right? Yeah, and she is, you know, God love her, she's passed away, but she was somewhat instrumental in my career. When I was stage managing 40 Carats, she came in to replace June Allison

who replaced Julie Harris. So, with the stars who gets replaced, I would, I would do their blocking for them so they would know.

And then my dad would come in and, you know, do one final rehearsal and get it into shape and everything like that. So, I would – so, Jaja became very fond of me. I would – you know, I could tell her to do things and I would not get a fight or anything like that.

She really liked me. So, I would direct – when she would do 40 Carats or she did Blythe Spirit around the country, they would hire me because I could wrangle her. And so we went to, they hired her to do 40 Carats in San Diego and I agreed to do it. I agreed to do it, and then she bowed out, and we did it anyway with Marjorie Lord, which is how I got the job as artistic director in San Diego, which gave me some credentials that Mary Tyler Moore was impressed with. Right. So everything leads to something else. Yes. Yeah. So, Zsa Zsa, you know, Zsa Zsa, believe it or not, when I was running a theater in San Diego, I would come up and I would do casting in L.A.

And I would always stay at Zsa Zsa's house. And she would feed me. It was a strange relationship. I was, you know, I was, I don't know. She liked me and I liked her. I got a kick out of her. She was very sweet and very funny. Yeah.

We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast right after this. That's what you say. Baseball is finally back. Get in on Major League action and swing for the fences with BetMGM, the king of sportsbooks. Log in or sign up to play along as BetMGM brings the real-time action. Embrace a season's worth of swings with BetMGM, your one-stop shop for all things baseball.

BetMGM.com for Ts and Cs. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Gambling problem? Call Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Planning for a summer road trip? Check.

Luggage? Check. Music? Check. Snacks? Drinks? And everything we can win in a new game at Circle K? Check! With Circle K's Summer Road Trip game, you can win over a million delicious instant prizes and a grand prize of $25,000.

Play at games.circlek.com or at participating Circle K stores. Uno, dos, tres, cuatro. participating Circle K stores. be dummy today here they come Gilbert and Frankie the promised day podcast will make you a guest anyway now this question may go absolutely nowhere but I'm hoping it's true.

Why should it be any different than your other question? This one, someone told me that the two old guys that sat at the bar in Cheers. Oh, Gino told you that. Yeah. Al Rosen. That Al Rosen used to be a stuntman for the Three Stooges. I think that is true. Al was, his title was the man who said Sinatra.

Right. Because I think the first time he ever spoke, it was Sinatra. And that was, he said it about four times in a show. And we started to use Al a lot. He had a couple of short lines, but he had been in the business, he probably was, I don't recollect that,

but he was an old time Hollywood guy. He's in the Stratton story, I looked it up, the Jimmy Stewart movie, the baseball movie. Do you know that movie? The Monty Stratton story? I know Monty Stratton story. I looked it up. The Jimmy Stewart movie? The baseball movie? Do you know that movie? The Monty Stratton story? I know Monty Stratton, but I don't remember the movie.

He had some credits in the 40s and 50s. He was a sweetheart. We used him occasionally on Cheers, but he was always really funny. Yeah, Gino, who's a friend of ours, was an entertainment reporter out of Milwaukee, knew Al. Oh, wow. And said, please have asked James about Al

because James was very good to him. Oh, yes, we were. But he was good to us because he was really funny. But I can't believe that's a connection to the three stages. From Cheers. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a fun one.

When you were working on 40 Carats, the story I heard, you were on the road and you went back to your room and you saw the Mary Tyler Moore show. Am I mangling this story? No, no, it's true. It was not the 40 Carats on Broadway. I was doing 40 Carats in Wallingford, Connecticut with Joan Fontaine. Okay, wow. And I went back to my room on a Saturday, turned on the TV, and there was a Mary Tyler Moore show. And in my head, I said, wow, they're doing a half hour a week, and I'm doing a two-hour show a week.

I think I can do it. So that's what gave me the idea. But to go back to How I Know Mary is the first show that I worked on on Broadway was a show that my dad wrote called, it was a musical of Breakfast at Tiffany's called Holly Go Lightly. And it starred Richard Chamberlain and Mary Tyler Moore, Dr. Kildare and Laurie Petrie. And I was in charge of Mary and Dick. I was the third assistant stage manager. And they were the Hollywood people.

And my job was to show them around. When they came off stage, take them to their next mark and take them back to the dressing room, get lunch for them. I was really their gopher. So we went out of town with the show, and we were sold out because you had Laura Petri and Dr. Kildare. Sure. It was crazy.

A winning combination. Yeah, and David Merrick was the producer, who was a great Broadway producer. And he was unhappy with the show. And I have to admit it was not my dad's greatest work. So David replaced my dad. And he replaced my dad with a man known for his musical comedy who was Edward Albee. Yeah.

And so I said to my dad, can I stay on? And he said, sure. So I stayed on the show, and my job expanded. I would go down to Edward's townhouse and get the rewrites because there were no fax machines back then or anything like that. And so Merrick decided to, rather than go out of town again with the show, to rehearse the reworked version of the show in New York and open for previews. So we opened for previews, and it was a disaster. The show was a disaster. It was dark.

There was some really good Bob Merrill songs in it, but it was a dark show. And poor Mary was in tears all the time, wasn't she? Yeah, Mary was in tears, and she would come off stage. She was crying. And I would be the person who would meet her. And I would take her to her next position and stuff like that or up to her room and she would change

and it was just it was a horrible experience for everybody and we closed after four performances and so we became very close because this was just a disaster. We were all in this lifeboat and we shared the oars.

And so after the show was over, Grant flew in and I sat with Grant and Mary for a while at Sardi's. And so we became friends. So that's my first introduction to Mary. And so that's how she knew me. So there was some luck involved in that, that she went on to have this wonderful career and took me along with her. But also a little chutzpah involved. I mean, you were in a road company, working with a road company, and you saw her on television, you said, I'm going to reach out. I think I can do this. I thought I could and I guess I was right. Turns out you could. Just talk a little bit about those MTM

glory days, James. I mean, not only the Mary Tyler Moore show, but you directed Phyllis, you directed Rhoda. We had Paul Sand in here. A couple of weeks ago. We were talking about Friends and Lovers. Did he tell you I was his dialogue coach? He did not. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I would go – I started by watching the Newhart show because in a particular thing that I do, multi-camera show in front of an audience. I knew about all the staging of the actors and everything like that. What I didn't know was about the cameras. So I had to watch for about four or five months to watch how the cameras work to get the shots and everything like that. So after a while,

once I learned the cameras, before I got my first shot, I would go to Paul Sant's house on the weekends and I would run lines with him. Nice man. weekends, and I would run lines with him. Nice man. Yeah, sweetheart. Yeah, we love him. Yeah.

That's fun. And the Tony Randall show, another MTM show. Right. The Patchett and Tarsus show that I love that should have been a bigger hit. I know. Tom and Jay made me laugh. Oh, my God.

The two of them were so, so funny and so mean. Well, I mean, one of the hallmarks of those MTM days were those writers. I mean, Brooks and Burns and Dan Stan Daniels and Ed Weinberger we had on the podcast, by the way. Oh, you did? We had Ed here, yes. Oh, my God. I haven't seen Ed in years. Oh, he was funny as hell. But, love

those shows. And you liked one in particular. Was that an MTM show? The Rob Reiner thing? Uh, yes. There was Free Country. Oh my god, yes. We both liked that one. Yeah, tell us about that one. Uh,

that was, I think, six or seven episodes. It was about Jews on the Lower East Side. And Rob wrote it and was in it. And it was, you know, everything was period about it. It was set in the early 1900s. And it was funny and sweet. Joey Pants was in it. Joey Pants, Renie Lippin, and it was funny and sweet. Joey Pants was in it. Joey Pants, Renie Lippin, and Judy Kahn

were the two families that were in the show. And I had a great time on that show. I was sad to see that it was canceled. And another show that you did that I think I saw about two episodes. Maybe there were only two. But I thought it was a funny show. And it had one person who I'm sure you admire because you worked with him on Taxi. And that was George and Leo.

Oh, it's not her show. Yeah., the Judd Hirsch show, yeah. Oh, God. With Newhart, sure. I mean, I was in awe of working with those two guys together. Yeah, Bob Newhart and Judd Hirsch. And Judd Hirsch, yeah. Bob, just when I was in college in 58, 59, my dad sent me the Button Down Mind record, and I could not keep my classmates out of my room. Everybody wanted to hear that record.

So I was just – I love Newhart, and then I got to work on his show on the old Bob Newhart show and he just nobody nobody doesn't like Bob he has it so distinctive and he's so funny and I had a good time on George and Leo

it didn't last that long but that's Jason Bateman was in that too yes smart show and tell us about Judd Hirsch who you worked with a lot. And we want to get Judd here.

You should get Judd. We want to talk to him. Yeah, we think he'll do it. He's, you know, Judd playing Alex Rieger, the only one who wanted to be a cab driver. Everybody else had visions and dreams to be other places. Alex Rie to be a cab driver. Everybody else had visions and dreams to be other places. Alex Rieger was a cab driver. That was his job.

He understood it. And yet he had the soul of the wisest man in the world and would listen to all the insanity. and because he would listen a lot like Ted Danson on Cheers because that character listened and acknowledged the other person the audience could embrace those people so the skill that Judd

has as a straight man is just it's just it's wonderful and you know I had a chance to work with him again on Superior Donuts where again he played the rock of the show. And he's gloriously funny and can do any accent in the world. And I've had wonderful times with him.

Straight men don't get enough credit. I mean, we've said that on this show many times. Newhart's another example of a viewpoint character who's a listener so that you can accept the other crazy characters that are orbiting around him. Right, right. He's the windows of the show. Yeah, yeah. And they don't get enough credit. In fact, when you watch the Mary Tyler Moore show, she doesn't get enough credit for being the straight person more often than not in the center.

being the straight person more often than not in the center. I know, you know, it's those, the ones who are either handsome or really good looking or girls who are really pretty, who are centers, don't get the acknowledgement they should. You know, that people think they're stars because they're good looking or pretty. But they're wonderful comedians too. There's no more greater example than the six of those people on Friends who, you know, for years everybody thought the show was a success

because they were so good looking. And it wasn't. It was that they were all deaf comedians, and the show was so well written. So, I mean, a lot of times you don't—the center of the show doesn't get the acknowledgments they should. And we've had at least two members of the Mary Talamore Show. We had Ed Asner, we had Gavin McLeod, and we had Weinberger. Yeah. Yeah. Tell us about Gavin McLeod and Ed Asner to work with. And Ted. Well, that was my first job, and I was scared shitless.

Thank God for Jay Sandrich. Yeah, because of Jay, who was my mentor. Jay was so sweet to me and so wonderful to me and so passionate about me. And, you know, he didn't bring me out. Mary brought me out. And Jay was so supportive. You know, I'll just tell a quick Jay Sanders story. The first show I ever shot, I was shooting the show, and somebody made a mistake. And I said, okay, let's back it up to this line.

And I heard from the booth, back it up to Ted's entrance. And I looked up there, and there was Jay, and he knew we couldn't cut the show. The show, it wouldn't cut together with the mistake unless we went back to Ted's entrance. So he was there for me on my first show, which was so sweet. first show, which was so sweet. And, you know, to this day, I still, I love him and, you know, credit him with being so instrumental in getting my butt off the ground and, you know, to be where I am today. That's nice. And as far as Gavin and Ted and Ed, the great thing about them is that they never really did much comedy before the Mary Tyler Moore show. I think Ted played heavies on the Elliot Ness show.

Sure, sure. And Ed was heavy in movies, and Gavin, the same, gangsters, and on The Untouchables, that's the show. Right, that's right. And so if you cast people on your shows who you've never seen funny, what you do is it enhances the element of surprise because you don't expect them to be funny

and they're funny and you go, oh my God, this person's funny, I never knew it. And you enjoy them more. They were wonderful actors and they were also funny. I mean, we did it on Cheers. We cast Nick Colasanto, played a coach,

and Nicky had come off of the Mafia Don and Raging Bull. That's right. That was, to coach, and Nicky had come off of the Mafia Don and Raging Bull. That was, to me, I didn't know it was the same person. Yeah, brilliant piece of casting. Yeah, remember him. It was so completely

different. And so believable in both parts, which are polar opposites. I know. Nicky was unbelievable. Nicky was a director. He was... He directed a lot of one-hour stuff. But...

Excuse me. When he came in to read, we all looked at one another and said, oh my God. And those are wonderful moments in the room. I'll bet. When you can say, oh my God, when somebody brings something you would never think to a part, and you go, oh, my God, this is great, and we're going to benefit from it. It was so strange because as coach, he's kind of slow-witted, good-natured,

and then there's this mean scumbag and raging bull. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a surprise. Yeah. Because Nicky doesn't look funny and all of a sudden

this stuff comes out of his mouth and his attitude and he could play that. He played coach. It was unbelievable. It's fascinating. These casting choices, casting these dramatic actors.

I don't remember Cloris Leachman being in many comedies either. I remember in The Twilight Zone and mostly dramatic work. And Last Picture Show. Last Picture Show, yeah. Yeah, that is fascinating. Yeah, and she was hysterical.

And the people on Taxi 2. I mean, nobody thought of Judd Hirsch really as a comedian. And DeVito had been in Cuckoo's Nest and some off-Broadway. Fascinating casting choices. I've been very lucky. And you were once talking about how, I mean, the character of Louis De Palma is like, you know, in real life

is a total scumbag. And yet... But a lovable, vulnerable one, yes. So you had a theory for why he became a lovable guy. Well, his height. Yeah. I mean, and God love the boys, Jim and Ed Weinberger and Stan Daniels and Dave Davis, when we were doing

the pilot of Taxi, Louie comes out of the cage in the first scene. And I remember going back after the first run through and the guy saying, we got to keep him in there until the last scene. You don't want to see

his stature until the last scene. they were right smart when he came out of that cage nobody could believe it so smart and uh yeah and so uh you know he had that wonderful vulnerability and you know danny's such a great actor such a great actor it's so funny you knew right away when you read that script, didn't you, James? Yeah. I mean, I heard you say it was the hardest show you ever did,

but you knew right away when you got the script in your hands that you had to do it. Well, no. There was no way I was not going to do it. Even when my agent called and said, you're going to get a script from Jim and Ed, I knew I was going to do it. Because it was back then when I was kind of floundering around doing all these

different shows and when I when they when when writers of their reputation chose to send me a script I knew I was going to do that show there was no two ways about it because I knew how good they were now was it you who uh I hope it was you, who got together with the cast of Friends and said, after this, your lives are going to totally change? That was me. That was me. I was doing, I did about four or five Friends in a row at the beginning of the run. I did the pilot and I think the first four or five friends in a row at the beginning of the run. I did the pilot and I think the first four or five shows.

And after about the third show, I saw how the audience was reacting to these six people. And the laughs were huge. The writing was so good. It was so funny. And I got Warner Brothers, The writing was so good. It was so funny.

And I got Warner Brothers, who were the producers of the show, to give me the plane, their private jet, to fly the six of them to Vegas. I just wanted to celebrate the fact that we were having a great time. So I flew them, me and the six of them, we flew to Vegas, and I took them to dinner at Spago, and I said to them, you guys have to enjoy this because this is your last shot at anonymity. Wow. And they said, what, buddy, you're kidding me. No, no.

And I said, yes yes I have a feeling I have a sense and I think this is going to be this show is going to be huge so we we had dinner and we went to gamble

none of them had money they all had to borrow it from me all those days are over yeah I know and we went to gamble. None of them had money. They all had to borrow it from me. All those days are over. Yeah, I know. And it turns out I was right. It was just a magical moment. I still am friendly with them all. I still see them a lot during the year.

And it's just something special we all have of that moment. And, you know, not six beautiful, wonderful actors, but six wonderful, sweet people that will will always be friends we will return to gilbert gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this this episode is brought to you by fx's the bear on disney plus in season three car me and his crew are aiming for the ultimate restaurant accolade a michelin star with. With Golden Globe and Emmy wins, the show starring Jeremy Allen White, Io Debrey, and Maddie Matheson is ready to heat up screens once again.

All new episodes of FX's The Bear are streaming June 27, only on Disney+. At Miele, our partner is the planet. Our appliances use less water and energy and are tested to last for 20 years of use. That's the ultimate form of sustainability.

I'm Nelson Fresco, president of Miele Canada. From now until June 30th, every Miele dishwasher purchased supports the planting and preservation of Canadian forests through the Miele Forest Initiative. Join us in making an impact today for a better tomorrow. Visit Miele.ca to learn more how'd you like working with we had ron liebman here too i know you've worked with i know you've worked with ron a handful of times what a sweet guy yeah uh hudson street yeah with tony that's

right yeah yeah and i did another one with him. Yeah, I can't remember. I don't have it on my card. Yeah. I'll find it somewhere. Do you have nothing but Jews on your podcast? Was it Pacific Station? Everybody you mentioned is Jewish. I don't understand.

What is it? I'm in charge of it, Joe. Well, Joey Pants we had. All right. Steve Buscemi. Yeah. And Alan Alda was here. He's a paisan like me.

I try to squeeze him in, James. It's hard. Occasionally, we have a token goy. You have to. Yeah. You have to. But back to a Jew that we have to talk about because it's somebody you both knew. Gilbert knew him a little bit, and that's Andy Kaufman.

Oh, God, yes. Yeah. I loved Andy. That's an hour show too, but we'll try to condense it. Yeah. Tell us. Yeah, it is an hour show.

The end. I loved Andy. He was just, to me, one of the most brilliant and bravest comics I'd ever seen in my life. And tell us the agreement, the contract of

how he said he has to bring in another person who will have his own dressing room and that whole part. Was that when he had to have Tony too? Yeah. The agreement the boys signed with Andy

was that he would do the show if this gentleman named Tony Clifton could do one episode of Taxi. Tony Clifton was Andy Kaufman's alter ego. When Andy would do a concert, Tony Clifton was Andy Kaufman's alter ego. When Andy would do a concert, Tony Clifton, who was Andy, with prosthetics on his face and a stuffed suit so he looked fat, and a ruffled shirt and a brocade tuxedo because he was a lousy lounge singer from Vegas. So he would open Andy's shows

and, you know, get hooted off the stage and they'd say, bring on Andy, take a mission, an intermission. And then after intermission, Andy would come on and, you know, do Foreign Man and do whatever he did, Elvis. So... A great Elvis.

Yes, one of the best. He had the sneer down. He had the sneer. Yep great Elvis. Yes. One of the best. He had the sneer down. He had the sneer. Yep. That. Yep. So. So the show came up that he was going to do.

And I know exactly when it happened. I don't have Mary Lou's memory. She has that crazy memory. But it was the day that Bucky Dent hit the home run to beat the Red Sox. Oh, the Red Sox one game playoff, right, 78. And so Andy was

Andy had day-night reversal. Andy Kaufman would come in at 1 o'clock for rehearsal because he was up till 4 in the morning and slept till 12. And we were starting at nine o'clock rehearsal and here with the show with Tony Clifton and here comes Tony Clifton at 9 a.m. in the morning.

And he wants us to stop watching the game because he wants to rehearse. Andy never wanted to rehearse. So we started this rehearsal and it was not going to work because you had Andy Kaufman playing Tony Clifton playing Louis De Palma's brother. And so I called

up to the boys. They came to see a run through and they decided we have to get rid of Tony Clifton and so if you see Man in the Moon, it's all in there. Well, it's fascinating from our perspective because Bonners is playing, who we had here on the podcast, is playing what, an amalgam of you and Weinberger? Yeah.

Yeah. It's bizarre. And what I find so strange about the movies is that Danny DeVito is not in Taxi. Oh, yeah, he's playing George. Yeah. He's playing George. We also had. Yeah.

Yeah, so. Was it like that the way it was depicted in the film? It's pretty close. I mean, I remember that day when Ed came down to fire him and Tony had two prostitutes with him. You know, normal shit that happens. Sure. And I remember Ed fired him

and Tony said, I'm not leaving. That's great. I remember, you know, I had firemen, and Tony said, I'm not leaving. That's great. And I'm going, holy shit, this is the greatest ghetto theater I've ever seen. And so we're watching. We're watching. Judd's watching. I'm watching.

Tony Danza had a Super 8 camera, and he can't find the film. It's just sad. So he won't leave. So finally Judd says, all right, I'm going to go play. So Judd grabs him and throws him off the stage and everything like that. And it was just wonderful theater. And we hired another actor, and the show went on, and it was fine. And Andy came in the next week as if nothing happened. I love that.

And when Andy was doing stuff like that, did ever you or the other actors say, okay, cut this shit? No, no. Because Andy didn't do anything like that. Andy played Latke, and he had a photographic memory. He knew the part. It was this one-dimensional character that Andy could play and he never,

none of that shit ever happened other than the Tony Clifton incident. You got an audience with him, though, too, which I found fascinating. You had dinner with him? We had him. Ed would have occasional parties on taxi, and Andy was uncomfortable.

So my wife back then and I would have Andy come over to the house, and we would talk. And again, he was this meek soul from Great Neck, Long Island, but a genius. And then we all went to see his milk and cookies show after, when he was on taxi, when he- Oh, was that the Improv or somewhere? No, it was at the Huntington-Harford.

Oh, okay. I think it was the first time he wrestled. Okay. And then, you know, he did all the characters and everything like that. And the end of the show, when we walked out, there were buses. And the buses took us to the pizza factory for milk and cookies.

And it was just, it was so wonderful and weird. It's a magical nature to the guy. Gilbert, how well did you get to know him? Not well. But you saw him in the clubs early on. Yeah, we never actually spoke. He would come in. I remember very clearly him doing stuff like reading a hundred, singing a hundred bottles of beer on the wall.

He'd do every one. And then, yeah, and then it gets to that point where you go, oh, shit, he's going to do the entire song. But, you know, he never told jokes. No. Andy never told jokes. He would do something to you laughed. I mean, he came out red gone with the wind. And, you know, you didn't know what was going on.

Pretty soon you'd start laughing. And that was Andy's, you know, he was incredibly brave. Performance art. Yeah, total performance art. Yeah, and farce. Let's talk a little bit, too. Quickly, can you tell us about two actors that struck us that were on Taxi that you directed?

Victor Buono playing Reverend Jim's dad and Ruth Gordon. Wow. I don't remember too much about Victor. I don't, you know, I don't remember that. Sure, it's a long time ago, I know. Ruth I remember. Yeah, she was sugar mama. Yep.

You know, and I might as well tell the story. I don't think anybody's ever told. I think Judd told me this story. She had, in the show, she had this guy who was kind of a Semitic-looking guy who was her lover. And his name was Aharon. And that was the actor's name. And I said, I said,

because I was done with the scene and then I said, I said to my AD, I said, okay, I want to start the next scene. I need Ruth Gordon and Aharon. And she started laughing and I don't know why she started laughing, and I don't know why she was laughing, anything like that.

She came, she did the scene, she was very sweet. And then I said to Judd after, why was Ruth laughing at that point? And Judd said, because she thought you said, I need Ruth Gordon and a hard-on. Ruth Gordon and a hard-on.

That's hilarious. At 88. That's hilarious. How great is she and where's Papa, by the way, James? Oh, my God. A kind of black comedy that Hollywood

doesn't make anymore. Oh. Yeah. That was so wonderful to be able to work with her. Yeah. Let's talk about Cheers, too, the casting, quickly.

Also, I was fascinated by the... By the way, I love that you refer to you and the Charles brothers as two Mormons and a Jew. Speaking of Jews. But the genesis of Cheers is interesting. How it was going to be, at first, you guys were Fawlty Towers fans. Yeah, huge fans. Yeah, we'll talk about Cleese if we have time. interesting how it was going to be at first you guys were faulty towers fans yeah huge fan yeah we'll talk about cleese if we have time and uh at first it was going to be a hotel and then it was going to be a bar on the way to vegas and barstow and then it was going to be a sports bar and then

you pick boston i mean it's a it's an interesting road also the casting is interesting how you You brought in three duos. We brought in the finals for Sam and Diane. The finalists were Julia Duffy and Fred Dreyer. Fred Dreyer was, at that point, a former defensive end for the Rams. Yeah, sure. Billy Devane and Lisa Eichhorn. William Devane, Gilbert. Why, yes. Yeah.

Billy Devane and Lisa Eichhorn, who were in Yanks together, and Ted and Shelly. And we invited the network to Paramount because there was a bar set on Bosom Buddies.

So we used that bar set and we rehearsed all three actors and all three sets of actors. And they were all wonderful in their own right. I mean, Billy was great and Freddie Dreyer was Sam Malone because at that point, he was a wide receiver for the Patriots. And Julia was great. They all had, but the people who had the greatest chemistry

were Ted and Shelly. So, we went up to the room and we discussed it. People, somebody was, really wanted us to hire Fred Dreyer, but at that point he didn't have the comedy chops we needed. We end out with Ted and Shelly and

I think it worked out. I would say. Shelly is another case of her character was like a snooty bitch and yet she's a lovable character. Absolutely lovable, yeah.

Yeah, half the men wanted to kill her, and half the men wanted to sleep with her. Yeah. And it was, I give all my credit to, all the credit on that to the Charles brothers. Because when we discussed the script before they went off to write it, we discussed Sam working for a woman. And that became the permutation after Shelley left. But at that point, when I left them, we had the character of the coach. We had Norm.

We had Cliff. Everybody liked that. We had the character of the coach. We had Norm. We had Cliff, everybody like that. We didn't have Cliff, but we had Norm and Coach and Carla and stuff like that. And they came back. I remember coming home from a vacation, and there was a script on my doorstep,

and they had created this character of Diane, which I had never seen before. I had never seen that character. And the bar conversation, I had never seen that. And I said to them, you've brought radio back to television, because it was so literate, so literate, so smart, so funny. I couldn't believe what they did. And it was a seminal moment for all of us, that moment that that script arrived. And so we cast it right. We got lucky with when somebody left, with replacing them that was somebody equally as good

or sometimes somebody better. Sure. And it was a wonderful 11 years. Yeah, like Woody Harrelson was a totally different character than the coach was. Yeah, well, we were in 84. We followed family ties. And Michael was such a star that when Nicky passed away, we didn't want to do an older guy again. We wanted to do a younger guy because we wanted to hopefully get some of the Michael Fox audience to watch Cheers.

And then we had a kid who we really loved to play the part. And the last actor to walk in the room was Woody. And he walked in and he read with Teddy and we went, but of course. Why didn't we think of going that way? And that was it. We just got lucky.

This is something Gilbert and I will never experience, but is there an electric moment when all of this comes together? The writing coalesces the acting the right actors walk in the room where you just go where you know in your bones this thing is special this thing is gonna fly and how does that yeah we were flying when woody came around yeah but i mean and you go back to the beginning that's what i mean. Yeah. You got to get a great script. Then you got to cast it great.

Then you got to get a network to put you on a good time slot. Sure. Because sometimes great shows don't have anybody famous in them and there's no reason to watch them. So you got to get in a time slot where people can come to the dance late because it takes a while in television to get the word out. So we were lucky, you know, we were lucky with a wonderful script on Cheers. We were lucky that Ted and Shelley were available at that time. We were lucky to be on NBC, which had nothing.

You know, there was nothing. The sitcom was dying back then. They didn't have any big shows. They had a couple of dramas, L.A. Law and maybe Hill Street. And we, you know, you knew. I always have a dress rehearsal before I shoot the show, three or four days.

And on Cheers, we had this dress rehearsal, and the audience went crazy. So I knew we had something special, and I knew they were laughing. They laughed at Norm when Norm entered. Right. And I looked at Glenn Charles, and I said,, oh my God, they're laughing at attitudes. So I knew, and you know, we were lucky.

We were lucky. We kind of, you know, did nothing the first two years and all of a sudden the Cosby came on and so we got more people to the dance

and, you know, it's electric. It happens. It's, you know, I've had it happen four or five or six times, and it's just, there's nothing like it. That's nice. It's quite an experience.

What was the original storyline to the Big Bang Theory? We did, on that, we did two pilots. We did a pilot. The first pilot was the boys. It was Johnny and Jimmy, Sheldon and Leonard, who walking down the street and they find a girl crying on the sidewalk, decide to take her in and live with her. It turns out she's a hooker. So you had these nerds living with a hooker, which I thought was a wonderful premise.

But we could never get the casting right on that. And God love Chuck. Chuck Lorre went back and said to the network, let's take another shot at this. And they created the penny across the hall and put in two more nerds. And the rest is history. And it's a tribute to Chuck.

I only did the pilot of that show. And I've worked with Chuck since then a lot. He's a genius at what he does. He knows characters. He knows funny. And he's keeping the sitcom alive right now. He is. Speaking of Jews we had on the podcast,

did you get a fan letter when you guys were working on Cheers from Norman Lear? I did. It was our first fan letter. What did that mean to you? Oh, my God. I showed it to the boys. You know, this is when we were struggling. Yeah, it came at the right time.

Yeah, the first year on Thanksgiving, we were the last rated show on the air that week. It was scary. And Norman wrote this letter, how much he loved the show. And we went to lunch with him. And who better to go to lunch with than the man who created Archie Bunker? And we went to the Brown Derby, which no longer exists. And we sat there in awe of norman

and uh it was so wonderful to see that he was in awe of us how lovely nice wow you just at the time you guys needed a shot in the arm and praise from caesar showed up yes that is fantastic let's talk a little bit about will and grace before we let you out of here uh james because i know it's a show you're very proud of uh as you should be, because it's a game-changing show. It's a trailblazing show. It's a show that means a lot to a lot of people and changed the culture. And as with Taxi, you kind of knew from the beginning. You knew, I guess, when you saw Max and David's script.

Again, I read the script. when you saw Max and David's script? Again, I read the script. It was a tribute to Warren Littlefield because Max and David had wrote a pilot for NBC previously, and they didn't pick that up, but Warren said, I like this character's Will and Grace. Can we do a show about them?

So Max and David went off and wrote the show, and I read it, and I loved it. I just thought how wonderful this show was. It was smart. It was funny. It was pertinent. And I said to my agent, I have to do this show. And I said to my agent, I have to do this show. So I did this pilot, and it was, again, at the dress rehearsal in front of this audience.

It was through the roof. It was just wonderful. And so the network picked it up, and the rest is history. I mean, I'm doing the reboot right now. This is almost our 230th show, and it still makes me laugh harder than any other show. And you said that you're against reunions. You said they're hard to do. They're hard to do. This hard to do yeah uh this was max muchnick's idea we did a political video with the four of them and the network liked the show and the four of them kind of looked the same so we said why not try it? So we tried it, and it's turned out okay.

Listen, they've still got the same chemistry. I know. I was skeptical, too. I said, well, I don't know. It's been years, and will it happen again? Can you make that magic again? But they're such infectious performers. No other show does those jokes.

You can't do those jokes. Yeah, yeah. No other show does those jokes. You can't do those jokes. We're the leading show in euphemisms because euphemisms are funnier than the actual word. And it's just – it makes me – it's such a delight to go to work. It's such a delight to hear these wonderful lines that Max and David and the rest of the writers have created. I'll hear these wonderful lines that Max and David and the rest of the writers have created. So it's – now, you know, I'm well into my late 30s, and to be able to – Congratulations. To be able to have a show in your late 30s that really makes you laugh is just – gives you new life. So a couple of actors that I marked, that I set aside here from Will and Grace.

We just lost the great Rip Torn. Yeah. Any particular standout moments or Gene Wilder? Somebody we also lost not long ago? Yeah, we had so many guest stars because once the show took off, everybody wanted to be on the show. We've had every gay icon in the world.

Absolutely. Cher. Not Gilbert, though. Not Gilbert. Maybe there's room in the reboot, Gil. We had Patti LuPone. We had Bernadette Peters. All of them, yeah. All of them. Did you say Elton? Yeah. Yeah, we had Elton LuPone we had Bernadette Peters all of them yeah

all of them did you say Elton yeah yeah we had Elton yeah right we they were all great

they you know if you're if you're on that show as a guest star you gotta come up to the level of the four of them if you don't come up

to the level of the four of them you're gonna be in the live. So every guest actor had fun on the show. Glenn Close was playing Annie Leibovitz

and she had a great time. Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon. Michael Douglas. Michael Douglas was fun. Michael Douglas playing a gay cop. Yeah. Gay man dancing.

And you got to direct the great Sidney Pollack. Sidney was Will's father. A wonderful man. So, you know, we were all in awe when he was on the stage. And he loved it. He loved being directed. Oh, interesting. Well, he started as an actor, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How does it feel? And I know you're not a proselytizer you've said it and you you know you leave the the political stuff to to people like norman

but it has to be gratifying too to be part of a show especially in light of what joe biden said when he when he i guess he evolved on gay marriage that that will and grace was in some way responsible for changing the the country's perception of gay people, to be part of something like that. Yeah, I don't think, you know, what we say on the show is, what we've said is, Ellen opened the door and we broke it down. Yeah, I'll say. I'm not good with proselytizing,

and I don't think Max and David want to preach either. I'm not good with proselytizing, and I don't think Max and David want to preach either. What the show did, the best example is I would drive carpool on Thursday when my kids went to high school. And these were 13, 14-year-olds, and Will and Grace was on Thursday night and I would pick them up and as we were driving to school they would say to me what's on Will and Grace tonight and I thought wow we have 13 and 14 year olds watching the show they have no preconception of what gay is

and so they're enjoying the show. So maybe they will not be influenced by bad talk about gay people or something like that. Maybe they've been exposed to these people, so there'll be some tolerance. Not to say that they would, but I

said, so maybe elsewhere in the world there are these young people watching the show and getting an idea that gay people are funny like everybody else and they're just other human beings.

So I don't think we ever set out to do that. I told Max and David at the end of the first episode of Will and Grace, we did. I wanted a kiss between Will and Grace so that maybe America would think that Will could take the magic pills and marry Grace and become straight. And that was never going to happen. But I figured if I could get people to think that, they'd watch the show. And then they'd see how funny it was. And they wouldn't care. So maybe it worked.

Maybe it didn't work. But, you know, 230 shows later, we're still on the air. Keep it going as long as you can. I just quickly want to read some messages that we got here. I reached out to people you worked with, some that have done the show, some that haven't. Michael McKean says, please send my regards. Tell him I watched a taxi episode in a hotel room. The local broadcaster was having equipment problems which slowed the play black the playback and jim brooks trademark whooping laugh turned into a

melancholy banshee motif and it made me love him even more i work with michael uh on laverne and shirley yep yep don rio says just tell jimmy i love him which i wanted to pass along and alan's why bell i asked about a pilot you did called Big Shots in America. Right, with Joey Mantegna. That's it. And he says, the pilot should have worked.

Great cast, great director, and the script wasn't bad. But ask Jim if we could work together again someday. I've matured a bit, and I've done a few things since that pilot. Yes.

I loved Alan. I loved also working in New York, and Lorne was the things since that pilot. Yes. I loved Alan. I loved also working in New York, and Lorne was the producer on that pilot. So I got to work with Lorne, and that was great. And Ken Levine, he says, Ask Jim if he held it against my partner, David Isaacs, and I, that during the Bar Wars episode of Cheers, we wrote, we had their rival Gary play a practical joke by filling Rebecca's office with sheep.

Does this mean anything to you? No. Oh, God. Kenny and David wrote a lot of really, really funny scripts. Funny writers. Yeah. Yeah.

Last thing I want to ask you is, how did it feel when NBC nbc decided to do the tribute show i i guess you had your doubts because you made a joke you said to sean hayes who was producing it you asked him uh if you could take the drugs that they were taking yeah so you you strike me as a kind of a humble guy was it was it tough to to to do that to let everybody pay tribute to you and then get it have to get up and make a speech? Yes. Yeah, I'm not, you know, although I've acted in a few shows, I'm sure you guys, I was in A New Heart and a Rota.

We have them all here. Yeah, unfortunately. It's my, it's not even a reel. It's only an RE. Okay. It was very difficult for me. I am a humble guy. I work from the heart, and to see all that tribute, it was amazing to me. But the great moment that those at home didn't see was the fact of the Big Bang cast going over to the cast of Friends, who they had watched.

Wow. And hugging and people going to see the taxi cast and the cheers cast, these actors in shows I did later who had grown up on these shows, to get all these people in this room at the same time was, you know, it was, you know, it was, I got such an arcus out of it. In case you didn't know, I was Jewish. In case you didn't know, I was Jewish. I was thrilled by it.

I can imagine. I had a wonderful time. And showing your humility, you gave credit to everyone around you. I mean, right down to the crew. Not the actors, the showrunners, the writers. Right. Yeah. They deserve it. They deserve it.

They deserve it. I'm nothing without them. That's sweet. We could do 100 shows. There's so much. I mean, I don't know if you can see the cards I have on the table here, James. I got about 20 cards here. You can ask me anything you want.

I even made a list of some of the series that I like. You were talking about Free Country, that you directed The Associates with Martin Short. I mean, Best of the West, Pacific Station with Robert Guillaume, Mad Men of the People with the great Dabney Coleman, George and Leo we talked about, Victor Fresco's Sean Saves the World, Don Rio's Pearl, Stark Raving Mad. These were good shows.

Yeah. Yeah, but, Stark Raving, Mad. These were good shows. Yeah. Yeah, but, you know, it's just... Finelli Boys. Oh, that's with Joey Pants. Yeah, another one. And Libertini. Libertini. God. Joey Pants and Chris Maloney.

Yes. Yes. But they didn't have the luck. They didn't have the things going for them that Cheers had. You know, it's just... Sometimes shows work, sometimes they didn't have the luck. They didn't have the things going for them that Cheers had. No, they just, you know, it's just sometimes shows work, sometimes they don't. I, you know, it's a crapshoot. And I've been holding back from asking you to do this, but can you sing a little of my country tis of thee? Why don't you have him sing his half Torah?

I paid somebody to sing my half Torah. Did you? Speaking of that, my parents asked me at 13, a question you should never ask a young Jewish boy, which is, do you want to be bar mitzvahed? Because the Jewish boy will say no. Because it's work. So I was

not bar mitzvahed. Neither was Gilbert. Yeah. What? I wasn't. Well, you can still do it. You can still do it. Because I was bar mitzvahed at 47 years old. Wow. Well, how old was Kirk Douglas' second bar mitzvahed at 47 years old. Wow. Well, how old was Kirk Douglas' second bar mitzvah?

He was like in his 90s or something. Yeah, I think in his 90s. I was bar mitzvahed at 47 because my first wife was a conservative Jew, and I said, why not? So I was bar mitzvahed at an Orthodox shul. I did the prayers in and out of the Haftorah. I paid a guy to sing the Haftorah for me. Oh, you weren't kidding. Oh, yeah. And as a tribute to me, at my 50th birthday party, Brandon Tartikoff, the late

wonderful Brandon Tartikoff, who was my dear friend, made a video for me. And a couple of people they interviewed, they interviewed the Charles brothers. And the Charles brothers said I was the only man they knew that was bar mitzvahed at 47 and lost his hair at 13. So I got two guys here who were not originally bar mitzvahed when they were supposed to be. But you can be bar mitzvahed at any time. Yeah. And James will direct it, Gil. Yeah.

Yeah, I'll do it. And if some people will promise they'll come over with money, I will get bar mitzvahed. You'll get cufflinks or fountain pens. Are you going to do something else with Norman Lear? You did the All in the Family, Jefferson's reboot. Yeah, I had a great time. I had a wonderful time. I worked with Norman, one of my idols,

and with all these actors who are all wonderful stars in their own right who came together and were in my lifeboat with me. That's nice. We made this wonderful show, and it was thrilling and exciting, and it got good ratings. And I think they're doing a couple more. And it was wonderful to direct the Bible because those scripts are, you know. They are. they're great. They're sacred.

They're sacred. Yeah. I know you're a big admirer of Larry David, James, but did you know that Larry David directed Gilbert in a pilot? I don't know this.

What was it called? Or did he write it and not direct it? Yeah, he wrote it. He wrote it. Forgive me. It was a pilot called Norman's Corner. Have you heard of it? I have not direct it. Yeah, he wrote it. He wrote it. Forgive me. It was a pilot called Norman's Corner.

Have you heard of it? I have not. Okay. I barely have, and I was starring in it. With Arnold Stang. Yes. Oh, my God. It was so bad that years...

How bad was it? Oh, thank you. How bad was it? Oh, thank you. Years later, years later, when they were pitching Seinfeld, they asked, well, okay, who will be writing this? And they said, Larry David. And they said, isn't he the guy that wrote that piece of shit for Gilbert Gottfried? James, we'll send you a link so you can enjoy it. Oh, my God.

I can't wait. If I have to fall asleep at night, I'll put it on. We'll send you a link. Thanks so much for doing this. Oh, thank you, guys. This was a joy for us. Thank you. I appreciate it. Some questions I've never been asked before, thank you, guys. This was a joy for us. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Some questions I've never been asked before, and I loved it. I'm glad. Thank you. And you're not going to sing My Country Tis of the... My Country, My Country Tis... But I had to sing, you know, My Country Tis of the Sweet Land of

Liberty. I can also sing from the opera Carmen. A man of many talents. The man has eight Emmys and you just made him sing my country tis of thee. James, thank you so much. Thanks for all the years of entertainment

for being such a part of our lives Thank you guys You're so sweet and good luck Well, this is Gilbert Gottfried This has been Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast with my co-host Frank Santopadre

and the man who's done millions of TV shows and never fucking hired me, James Burroughs. You got a better chance of Edgar Rice Burroughs. Yeah, sure. At this point. James, thank you so much. One of my favorite shows that we've done. Thank you. Sometimes you want to go where everybody knows your name And they're always glad you came You want to be where you can see Our troubles are all the same We'll see you next time. Where everybody knows your name Thank you.