Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - 38. Alan Zweibel

Episode Date: February 15, 2015

Emmy award-winning writer Alan Zweibel started out in show business by peddling jokes to Catskills comics at seven bucks a pop, before a chance meeting with Lorne Michaels led to a staff job on the hottest new show on television, "Saturday Night Live." Alan joined Gilbert and Frank at the George Burns Room at the Friars Club to talk about the earliest days of SNL, co-creating the groundbreaking "It's Garry Shandling's Show" and collaborating with everyone from Gilda Radner to Rob Reiner to Billy Crystal. Also: Alan heckles Larry David's act, "borrows from" Paul Simon, turns down "Hollywood Squares" and inspires a classic "Seinfeld" episode. PLUS: Totie Fields! Christopher Lee! The subversiveness of "Duck Soup"! Uncle Miltie gets banned! And Gilbert tries (unsuccessfully) to follow The Beatles! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by FX's The Bear on Disney+. In Season 3, Carmi and his crew are aiming for the ultimate restaurant accolade, a Michelin star. With Golden Globe and Emmy wins, the show starring Jeremy Allen White, Io Debrey, and Maddie Matheson is ready to heat up screens once again. All new episodes of FX's The Bear are streaming June 27, only on Disney+. This is a paid advertisement from BetterHelp. As a podcast listener, you've heard from us before. Today, let's hear what members have told us.

One member said, I would recommend my therapist 1,000 times over. She has truly changed my life. Another member said, the day after my first session, my friends and family said I sounded like myself again for the first time in weeks. You deserve to invest in your well-being. Visit BetterHelp.com to see what it can do for you. That's BetterHelp.com. hi it's gilbert godfrey gilbert godfrey's amazingal Podcast. And I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. And I'd like to give a shout out to two of our loyal contributors to Patriot.

The first one is Ryan Story. Ryan Story. And the second one is Frederick. He didn't give me a last name. So he's kind of a fan, but he doesn't want people to know it. He doesn't want people to find him and go, you actually listen to Gilbert Gottfried? That's what you do with your life? So he's just Frederick from Oslo, Norway,

where I think most of my fans are from, Oslo, Norway. But Frederick, get in touch with me and give me your last name. I'll say your last name on the air. But also, you can contribute to Patreon. And it's... Frank! God sakes! What the hell do I have you here for?

The one time I need you. Usually you're just interrupting me when you're not wanted. But now, all of a sudden, I need you. And you're just leaving me out in the cold. Do you want to know what happens when people donate to Patreon? Would you like to know? Well, you donate a set amount every month and you get exclusive benefits.

Including early access to episodes. You get to take part in our very cool video hangout, which is just images of Gilbert walking around in slippers he's stolen from various hotels. Social media shoutouts like the one you just heard. And also will read your your spiel or

your whatever it is you want read on the show and i understand the unabomber is a big fan of the show read his manifesto so that's patreon.com you go to patreon.com slash g Gottfried to contribute to our show. And it's sort of like PBS, Gilbert, without the tote bag. Or a CD of Pavarotti. Just like that. Mackenzie Phillips doesn't come on and bullshit for 40 minutes while you're trying to watch a documentary about the mamas and the papas. Yeah, it's like you don't get behind-the-scenes information about Dalton Abbey.

Dalton Abbey. Yes. So, again, that is patreon.com, folks, slash Gilbert Gottfried. And thank you, Ryan Storey and Frederick from Oslo, Norway. Tell us your last name, for God's sakes. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast. I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santopadre, and we're coming to you today from the George Burns room at the historic New York Friars Club. And our guest today is one of the funniest and most prolific comedy writers of the past 40 years. He's a multiple Emmy winner

who's written classic shows like Curb Your Enthusiasm and it's Gary Shandling's show, which he also co-created. He's written movies, broadways, plays, novels. He won the prestigious Thurber Award. He was also a staff writer on the original Saturday Night Live and an eyewitness to television comedy history. He's also the tallest Jew to ever work in show business, our pal Alan Zweibel. Well, you mean to tell me in the 40 years that you claim that I've been doing this, I've never seen a Jew taller than myself?

That I've either looked eye level at somebody or down? Yes, yes. Who, name some tall Jews you know. Larry David's pretty tall. Oh, he is a tall Jew. Where's Billy Crystal Shorter? Oh, Jeff Goldblum. Jeff Goldblum's a very, very tall Jew.

But he's not a tall Jewish writer. He's a tall Jewish actor. Yes. Oh, we're talking only about tall Jewish writers. I thought you were. I can talk about any kind of tall Jew you want. I can talk about tall Jewish basketball players. Neil Simon is short.

Or average height. He's not a pipsqueak, but yeah, he's average. Yeah, so he's not a tall Jewish writer. Well, he was average height for like our father's generation. Oh, yes. He might be short for our generation. Yes. What are you, 6'1", Alan?

6'2"? I'm 6'1". I'm 6'1". I'm 6 foot. Okay. I just added the one because you did. Okay. I got it.

I didn't want to make you feel bad. That's all right. Carl Reiner's sort of tall. Oh, yes. Carl Reiner's a tall Jew writer. He's also a 92-year-old Jew writer. Oh, yes, yes. But I don't think he's lost height

during these 92 years. Now, that's interesting because most people lose height as they get older. Now that I think about it, maybe I lost the same amount of height so he looks just as tall to me. It could be that.

Now, what about Arthur Miller? He looked tall. He looked tall. Listen, would Marilyn Monroe marry a short Jew writer? I don't think so. Oh, no, no. She married Joe DiMaggio, who was, I guess, a tall Italian baseball player. Italian sitcom writer.

I was thinking of a different Joe DiMaggio. That's right. The Joe DiMaggio you're talking about was a sitcom. He wrote for Life of Riley, I believe. And he spelled DiMaggio differently because he was actually a Jew. Yes. I wish I had something to say to that, but I think you're right. Now, you told us we're at the Friars Club, and you were telling us why you were delayed.

Okay. Okay. I was delayed, and I think that this was really nice of me, and I think the 12 people who are listening to this will agree. You're generous. The upwards of a dozen people who might hear this will think that this was really nice of me, knowing that this was a podcast, okay? So I know that pod, that's a foot.

Yeah. Is it? Like two peas in a pod? That's a, yeah. Is that right? Well, a pod is like, see, I always think in terms of like Kevin McCarthy warning people. It's a pod reference.

No, I'm with you. I'm with you. See, where I go a little bit more elementary, like two peas in a pod. Yeah. But thinking we were going to be two peas in a pod, actually three peas, because Frank is here. I thought I was doing everybody a big favor by going upstairs. So we're three peas. We're three peas. So this is

a Jew with bad prostate. Well, yeah, I peed three times plus. What I did was I went upstairs to the fryer's lavatory and I used mouthwash thinking we would be so close. Why would I want to offend people

who are talking to me? It's a very considerate thing. You thought we'd be making out during the podcast. Listen, I have my dreams, and if this goes the way I expect it to, we can reach some sort of crest and hug, and whatever happens afterwards, I'm willing to go with it. You may be our most considerate guest now. Yeah. Now you're a writer, I hear.

You know something? I've heard that too. It's a vicious lie. But yes, I wake up 5.30 every morning and I sit down and I try to be very funny. Yeah, it's really a pleasure. It's a living hell, the whole thing. You tried doing this.

You have tried. I've tried and failed miserably. And that's why I'm doing a podcast. I see. So if I listen to you, I have a podcast in my future. Yeah, you're the only person I know who doesn't have a podcast. Well, you're not down to the Zs yet, I understand. Tell us about watching the Van Dyke Show as a kid,

and how you actually got inspired to do this with your life. Well, that was the greatest. And I know lots of people who are my age who do what we do for a living, show as a kid and then you actually got inspired well that was the greatest you know and i know lots of people who are my age who do what we do for a living they say why do you want to uh what made you want to become a comedy writer and i know personally and like i said this same story is shared by others i used to watch the dick van dyke show i was like 12 years old when it came on. And, you know, wow, look at this. Comedy writer, TV comedy writer. He's a nice looking man.

He's got a very pretty wife, you know, Mary Tyler Moore. A very nice house in New Rochelle. They got a kid, Richie. And when he goes to work, he lies on his back on the couch and he jokes around with Buddy and Sally all day. I want to do that. That's this very heavy, little heavy lifting Sally all day. I want to do that. That's this very heavy, little heavy lifting. That's what I want to do. Now,

you then, years later, when you were a working writer, successful writer, you were in an elevator. Well, here, this was, we can put this in the sad column. We like to start the show with sadness. With sadness and then build from here.

Rise from the ashes. I was writing a Steve Martin special that Lorne Michaels was producing for NBC. That's Channel 4, Gilbert. And we were rehearsing in these studios, I think, called NOLA. It was on Broadway in 57th. And we were in Studio A rehearsing for this live special. Dick Van Dyke was doing a special and he was rehearsing in Studio B. I knew he was in there and I waited one night for him to come out because I wanted to meet him and spend some time with him.

time with him. He came out and we shared an elevator. And on our way down, I just said to him, I said, look, Mr. Van Dyke, I've got to tell you what kind of influence you are on me. I said, I used to watch your show, you know, married, had a kid. And my wife, we had just had our first son, Adam. I said, we just had our first son. I'm a comedy writer. We're going to buy a house. Maybe it will be New Rochelle, but if not, it will be sort of like New Rochelle. And I just wanted to thank you for everything, for the inspiration. And he put his arm around me and he said, Alan, just a little word of warning here. After five years, the Dick Van Dyke Show was canceled and I became an alcoholic. So I said, gee, boy, I hope this elevator goes a lot faster than it's going

right now couldn't wait to get off there it really deflated me and you you said you actually started getting teary-eyed i did it because this is um i i had nothing but good things and good thoughts and i thought that somebody wanted would like to to hear that, that, you know, that they were an influence on somebody and that everything that he represented was coming true for me. This was probably the last thing I wanted to hear. I didn't expect it, number one. And I looked for like a little hint of, you know, like a wink or a thing that made it, it's okay. But he was pretty serious about it. And I met him years later, and he had no recollection of this, which led me to believe that he told this story to a lot of people.

It's not like, oh, yeah, you're the guy I told that to. Uh-uh. That didn't come up. I heard you started crying. I was a little bit of tears, and I believe I banged on the elevator door at one point. Dropped your knees and screamed, why? bit of tears and I believe I banged on the elevator door at one point. Yeah. Dropped to your knees and screamed, why? Why, why, why, why did I take this elevator?

You were turning into Nancy Kerrigan. I had no doubt. Jesus. Wow, look at this. We're 12 minutes into this and a Tanya Harding reference comes up. Why, why, why? Turned into Nancy Kerrigan. That's great.

Yes. Which, surprisingly, is a tall Jewish comedy writer. Well, look at this. See how this comes full circle? It's like a Dickens novel. It all ties in at the end. Now, how did you start in the business? Well, I started... This decision was not made for me to become a comedy writer.

This was not my idea. The decision was made for me about 40 years ago by every law school in the United States. They all sat down. They looked at my LSAT scores and they go, now this is silly. this why even bother with this i started writing jokes for stand-up comedians who played the catskills

borscht belt um uh every morty mickey freddy dicky and lee that ever lived i wrote for seven dollars i wrote jokes for them and that's how i started. They would pay me, and some of them were real pains in the ass because they would only pay me if the joke got a laugh. So I moved in with my parents after college. So I'm living at home on Long Island, and I would get in a car, borrow their car, and drive up to the Catskill Mountains, which was only 100 miles away, and sit in the back of the Nevely or the Concord or some nightclub and watch them do the joke or jokes. And invariably they'd come off the stage and they'd go shaking their head, you know, you know, Alan, that joke about paving the driveway went right into the toilet.

And I go, gee, you know, I heard laughs. So then we would bargain and I'd go home with $4. So I was going nowhere really, really fast. Who were some of these comics, Alan? Because Gilbert and I were fans, and we would know some of these things. You'll know them all. There were great guys also. Morty Gunty, who has since passed away.

Sure, sure. He was in Broadway, Danny Rose, Morty Gunty. Yes, indeed he was. He was at the table at the Carnegie. Freddie Roman was very generous with me, very nice guy. Dick Capri was another great guy. Vic Garnell, Billy Baxter. Then there was Lee Stanley and Stanley Lee.

And it was frustrating because they were older than me. It was like writing for my parents' friends. I'm 21. And Freddie, who is very nice to me, says, Alan, sperm banks are in the news. Can you write me a sperm bank joke? I'm 21. Like, I give a shit about sperm banks.

So I write, you know, they have a new thing now called sperm banks, which is just like an ordinary bank, except here, after you make a deposit, you lose interest. Great joke. So now the word goes out, there's a new sperm bank guy in town, okay? So another comic calls up, got sperm bank jokes, I go, fuck, those are sperm bank jokes. So I wrote another one, I think it might have been for Freddie or maybe with somebody else, I looked into the future because they were freezing sperm. And I said, you know, this could be a problem

in the future because it's hard enough telling the kid he's adopted. How do you tell me it's been defrosted? Okay. $7, ladies and gentlemen. Wasn't there an $18 joke, even though the going rate was $7? Well, I'll tell you, there was a feeding frenzy. I had written...

I got high. I got $18 for a joke that I had written about a Hasidic orgy, which was very unusual because the men were on one side of the room and the women were on the other. They were fooling each other. They were pounding the shelf. They get to that joke. It was just pure joke writing.

These guys were interchangeable to a great extent. They were tuxedoed guys who got up on stage and told you jokes, but there was no distinct personality. Like, years later, it was easier, like, writing for, like, Rodney, because Rodney had to think, I don't get

no respect, so to have him say even as an infant, I didn't get any respect, my mother wouldn't breastfeed me. She said she liked me as a friend. See, that was easy to have him say this stuff, you know. But these other guys was just pure joke writing. So I took all the jokes they wouldn't buy from me. And I made it into a stand-up act myself. And that's where I met you a million years ago. I went on stage at the Improv and Catch a Rising Star to tell these jokes. I was going to ask, when did you guys meet?

I remember Gilbert at the Improv. This must have been 74. Were you there? Oh, yeah. He started when he was 15. I saw you. The first time I ever saw you, you had circular bar trays. I still use it. Why throw anything out?

Why update anything? Because what was good 40 years ago, it's back again. It's hipper now. But you used to take two circular bar trays, I remember, and put it on either side of you and go, iron sides. Yes. Geez, I remember that bit.

I became friends with Larry David and the people. Elaine Boozler was around back then. Ed Bluestone. And I remember you used to do a thing with Larry David where you'd be a heckler in the audience. Yeah, I'd be a guy from Palermo for some reason. I can't do accents. I can't do accents. I can't do anything. For some reason, at one point in Larry's act,

when I thought that he had gotten more than enough laughs for that evening, I would come in and I would just start taking the chairs and tables and making sort of a ruckus over it. And we would talk. And he called me the Italian gentleman. And if you remember, we were just talking to Susie Essman about it, how Larry was like the worst on stage.

If he thought somebody wasn't laughing. Well, it was amazing because like on a Friday night, Bud Friedman would give me, let's say, the 9.20 slot to go on. Let's say Larry was on at 9 o'clock. I would follow him, theoretically, 20 minutes later. But if I knew that Larry was getting on at 9, I'd also get to the club at 9, because I could very well be getting on at 9.01 if Larry didn't like what he saw out there. very well be getting on at 9.01 if Larry didn't like what he saw out there.

He would get up there sometimes for literally 30 seconds and go, I don't like you people, and put the mic back and walk off. It was legendary what he used to do. I wonder if Susie told you. I'm quoting Larry now, okay? We all used to sit in the back of the club because larry was on a different plane than everybody you know and he'd get up on a friday night at the improv and you had a real white bread sort of audience from jersey with lime pants you know and blue hair you know you know what i'm talking about and these fat wives would drag their husbands in.

Now they're at the club. Larry in those days used to have wire rim glasses. He had hairs. And it was like a sort of curly Afro. Yeah, yeah, like the Jew fro. The Jew fro. Yeah. And he had a green army fatigue jacket.

Oh, yes, yes. Right, because he was in the reserves or something. army fatigue jacket. Oh, yes, yes. Right, because he was in the reserves or something. And he'd get on stage, and I'd be sitting in the back with other comedians, and he'd look at it, like I said, it looks like the

young Kipper audience out there, okay? This was not your hip room. And Larry's first words would be something along the lines, he says, I feel very comfortable with you people tonight. In fact, I feel so comfortable that I'm thinking of using the to form of the verb instead of usted. Now, I'm laughing my ass off in the back because, A, I think it's really funny, and, B, this audience is an oil painting at this point.

It's like sagebrush going through. They're just frozen. brush going through they're just they're just they're just frozen so you know better than anyone that whatever a comedian hits a snag you go another way especially right out of the box but larry just kept on going he says i think a lot of people misuse the two for him he he said like when they steep they stabbed caesar he looked at his friend Brutus and said, A2 Brutus? And even Brutus said, Caesar, I just stabbed you.

If there was ever a time for you to stab, it's now. And the audience would just stare at him, and then he'd go, I don't like you people, and walk off. And I'd get on at 9.01. Susie said he was doing a bit, and he involved a bungalow, and somebody had the audacity to say,

what's a bungalow? And that was too much for him. He just slipped. I didn't know that. He just left. He didn't want to deal with anybody. He didn't know what a bungalow was. See, no, no, that I didn't know.

Wow. Quite often, they'd have to separate them. Like Larry would get into a fight with someone like they were going outside. Well, the beautiful thing about Larry is he stuck to his guns and he waited for the rest of the world to catch up to him. You know what I mean? When you think about it, there were times that he would write scripts

and he didn't have a pot to pee in, okay? He would write a script and producers were willing to give him what for him at that time was a lot of money. But can we change that from a red tie to a blue tie? They'd give him a note like that. And Larry goes, it's supposed to be a red tie. And he turned down the... Okay, he would...

When we, you know, when I was doing his Gary Shandling show, I gave him a script to write. And it almost took a toll on our friendship because the show was in full stride at this point and changes had to be made in it. Larry's script was fantastic. But at that point, it was for another show

because the show had evolved into something else. And he always, always saw things his way. And it ended up that the world then became ready for Larry. The beautiful thing about him, and we're still best friends at this point, is that if you go to our house and look through our albums, oh, yeah, that's when Larry slept on our couch in the Hamptons. Oh, that's when Larry went with us to the Bahamas. My wife, you would buy him pajamas or a toaster oven and stuff.

And now, he can walk down the street and go, that's a nice building, put that in the car. I need a new stadium, put that in there. And I'm just, I couldn't be more proud of him. It's inspiring. That's how things got up to him. It's really inspiring, and it should be a lesson to everybody.

Yeah, and we met. You and I met at the Improv. Yes, indeed we did. I always used to stay to watch you because I never saw anything like this before in my life. I didn't know how to describe it. And I would go home and tell people, there's this guy.

And I didn't get much further than that. I just said, there's this guy. And then one time my parents came to the club. I went, that's the guy. The guy doing Ben Gazzara jokes. Ben Gazzara jokes, yeah. So you decided to do your own material. Just to advertise my writing.

Right. Just to advertise my writing. And hoping that a manager, an agent, somebody would come in and help me get a job as a writer. You were doing your failed jokes. Getting the ones that they wouldn't buy. The ones that didn't sell. The ones that didn't sell to those guys.

The rejects. Well, there was one joke I wrote for them that they didn't buy and when I ultimately auditioned with Lorne Michaels to show him my jokes because he was looking for writers for this brand new show that was going to be called Saturday Night Live, I typed up what I believed were 1100 of my best jokes. And I met him in the city. And he opened the book. And the first book, the first joke was a joke that I had written for the catskill guys none of them

bought the joke he read that one joke and he said very good and he closed the the book and basically and he even tells the story that that joke turned his head around and very much got me the job i mean they read the rest of the jokes ultimately but i had written a joke just to show you how long ago it was uh from the reference points uh saying that the post office was going to issue a stamp commemorating prostitution in the United States. It's a 10-cent stamp. If you want to lick it, it's a quarter. And he liked it. And think about how long ago that was.

There's no more 10-cent stamps. There's not even quarter sets. And you don't lick stamps anymore. It's 1975, right? So I might as well be doing Brontosaurus jokes at this point. There's barely a post office left. That's right.

That's right, yeah. I wonder if I can change that into like an Instagram joke or something. No, I go to when I do my speaking engagements, if I'm speaking to people like our age, no explanation is needed. But if I'm going to a college with your 17 and 18-year-old kids, when I get up to that to tell them that joke that got me the job on SNL, I hold my breath just a little because I don't know if it's going to make sense to them. They're 17 years old, 18 years old.

They have no concept that stamps were ever licked. Right. Yeah. Very possibly. to them. They're 17 years old, 18 years old. They have no concept that stamps were ever licked. Very possibly. The idea of mailing letters is like something that's forgotten about. Yeah, those big, big things, those depositories on the corners, street corners, that are painted red and blue sometimes, and people shove stuff. What is

that for? Yeah, think about it. I wonder about that. Has the mail, has the post office, is there less mail that's going out and around? Good question. Do messengers still exist, given that there are emails and fax machines are out of... Yeah, I don't think there are messengers, too many messengers anymore. Oh my God, I

had a few messenger jobs when I was like, yeah. They said, take this affidavit and bring it down to the thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I would have lost work. Now I feel badly about the work you would have lost. So Lorne offers you a job on the strength, essentially, of this one joke. Well, I think it turned his head a little bit.

There were literally 1,100 jokes in there that he had to show Dick Ebersole and the folks at NBC about. But, yeah, I think that this turned his head a bit. And you were offered another show. This was amazing, as fate would have it. See, I was writing for all these comedians, okay? And a lot of them used to open for Toadie Fields. Do you remember her? Sure.

Yes, yes. Of course. Toadie fields was managed by a man named howie hinderstein back then and so i used to go to those shows that i wrote for these comedians for i met this howie hinderstein because toady fields was the closing act he took a liking to me he was very friendly with the producers of Hollywood Squares. Okay? So he said, why don't you write a lot of questions and bluff answers for Paul Lind?

Maybe, who knows? Maybe this could be your first job. So I wrote a bunch of them. I gave it to him. He submitted it. Literally the same week that Lorne gives me the job on this new show, I get this phone call. I got a job if I want it as a writer for the Hollywood Squares.

Now, it sounds crazy in retrospect, but in 1975, Hollywood Squares was going into like its ninth season. It was on the West Coast where the whole industry is, prime time, which was a higher pay scale, and it had all these stars. It was an established brand. Well, it was a self pay scale, and it had all these stars. It was an established brand. Well, it was a South China,

but individually in each box, there was a star that had a Las Vegas act on a TV show. That's right. This was a great entree into the business as opposed to East Coast, late night, who watches television on Saturday night at 1130 except for people who can't get laid, okay? And who's John Belushi and what is this?

So there was a bit of a hesitation. What's the better career? All of a sudden, I had to make a career move. I was slicing lox in a deli, okay? So now all of a sudden, I went from slicing lox to, gee, I got a decision to make. Look who has a decision to make. Hilarious. I think you made the right one.

And what, like, Saturday Night Live, people don't realize how revolutionary it was. Because what were some of the rejects, the rejection letters that they sent me when I would submit material. Carol Burnett was the gold standard at the time, but Rich Little had a show. The Jackson Five had a show. Cosby had a show. Flip Wilson had a show. Everybody eventually had their own variety show. Bobby Vinton. Singers had their show. Cosby had a show. Flip Wilson had a show. Everybody eventually had their own variety show. Bobby Vinton.

Singers had their own. So that was... But I just remember growing up watching those kinds of variety shows. Sonny and Cher had a show. Bobby Darin had a show. And sitting and watching these shows... Tom Jones. Tom Jones had a show. The Starline Vocal Band

was given a summer replacement show. A summer replacement show. That's right. And as a kid, I would watch these shows. I would hear people laughing on television at stuff that I didn't think was funny. I'd go, what is this? This is crazy. But there was something the way Lorne had described this show. It seemed like even if it didn't, if it wasn't going to be successful,

it was going to be the sensibility that I thought I had because it was geared to the sons and daughters of those comics that I couldn't write for. You know what I mean? It was Alan King's children's generation, of which I was a part of. It was the Baby Boomers. And Lorne had always said, it's our time to make each other laugh. And that was the only standard that we had when the show started.

He said, let's make each other laugh. And if we do, we'll put it on television. And hopefully there'll be enough people who like us and tell their friends about it. You're 24, 25. I was 24 when he hired me, 25 when the show started. I remember like those, you know, Frank and I quite often will talk about these different comedy shows. And the writing on them, it's like it could be Bob Hope. It could be like a current pop star. It's a formula.

I mean, they were written by older comedy writers. Well, they were written by older comedy writers. But what I didn't understand about it, I mean, they were written by older comedy writers. Well, they were written by older comedy writers, but what I didn't understand about it, I mean, look, we're all generally similar ages, and we remember who made us laugh and who didn't, and I couldn't understand. Look, with all due respect, and I know that Bob Hope's regarded

as one of the greatest comics of all time, he made me laugh in those Bing Crosby movies. Yeah, sure. The road movies. But his monologues didn't make me laugh I used to sit there and go why are people laughing it was um to me it wasn't funny to me it was you know it made my parents laugh okay and here Lorne came along and he's you know the the host the host of the first show was George Carlin, who made me laugh. Yeah. Okay? I went to see the National Lampoon Show, and my God, I saw Belushi.

I saw Bill Murray. I saw these people. I'm going, lemmings. Okay? I'm going, these are people who talk our language. So it made perfect sense that time was right for this. Now, this brings me to another thing. for this now this this brings me to another thing a famous incident on saturday night live was a comedy legend one of the biggest comedy legends of all time i think i know what's coming

milton burl well this was this was amazing because on paper on paper, there was some beautiful symmetry to this because he was the king of his generation, we were that to our generation. It was NBC and NBC, I don't know if it was the same studio, you would have to check that out. But it was a bit of, you know, it was homage to the guy who helped pave the way. And when he came to do the show, it was incredibly disappointing to everyone. It was incredibly disappointing because he represented or he comported himself in a way which was antithetical to the premise of the show. The premise of the show is basically whatever is was

and uh you know you play the moment and you feed off of each other and um he was too joke oriented he was not so much about the improv okay it was a different school altogether i remember for example when he was rehearsing his opening monologue all right right, Dave Wilson was the director and he was in the booth and they were just rehearsing his opening monologue. I was in the studio, so I heard him do this. this line about the water bottle, okay? I'd love to have a sound effect of like a crowbar falling on the studio floor and let it sort of reverberate for a couple of seconds before it comes to a rest,

because when it does, I am going to ad lib. It looks like NBC dropped another one. Listen to that sentence. I am going to ad lib. This isn't what we did. Okay, and there was another moment in the same monologue. If I remember correctly, he said to Dave Wilson, when I get to this spot in the monologue, cut me off.

Don't go any lower than, let's say, my navel, okay? He says, because what he did was, because below the frame of the TV, he made motions with his two hands. He says, I will do this motion with my hands when I tell them that I just turned 70. That's what it was. I'll do that motion with my hand and they will give me a standing ovation. Because he knew from playing clubs and concerts or whatever that he could induce a standing ovation if he did that. And that's what happened. It was unbearable. It was absolutely the opposite. And how disillusioning for you guys and Lorne, who regarded him as a hero, as a comedy hero. Absolutely.

This was a forerunner. This was somebody that, you know, you build things on the shoulders of giants, and who was bigger than Milton Berle in his day? It was very, very disillusioning. And if I'm not mistaken, it's one of the

few shows that was never repeated. Yeah, I think I only saw it once, and it's probably not on the box set. You know something? I don't have the box set. They never sent me a box set. Those bastards! They didn't send me a box set.

And they say, I think they had written a bit between him and Gilderadner as father and daughter. Wow, see, I don't even remember this. Wow. And they said it't even remember this. Wow. And they said it was going to be like kind of a nice piece. Yeah. But he just started doing shtick during all this. See, that was the thing.

He couldn't play character. This was the guy, if we go back in the annals of early television, he used to wear dresses and have the lipstick on. And then he'd strut around. And that was comedy back then and and it was huge comedy people used to pull off the side of the they went home what was it on tuesday nights or something like that i think so yeah that was the night to go to watch this and um but he couldn't keep a straight face he couldn't feed you. Generosity wasn't the big thing. No, no. Has Tim's got a treat for you?

Well, actually, a treat in a treat. Get ready for Tim's Dream Cookies, now in three delicious flavors. Double Stuff Oreo, Caramel, and Reese's Minis. They're soft, chewy, and baked fresh daily. Try one today at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. Who were some of the other guest hosts that were nightmares?

I think that there are a list of them on the internet. Yeah, people who've been banned from the show. See, I don't know who was banned or not. I left the show in 80, so the banned list came afterwards. I know that there were people who weren't used to it. Louise Lassa was difficult. I don't think she was used to the form. You know what it was?

It was people who I can't remember. I don't think Raquel Welch was a day at the beach either. I want to ask you about the Grodin episode because I always thought that was a put-on. It's considered that Charles Grodin angered the cast because he – Well, that's not my recollection of it because I wrote – I can't remember if there was a samurai. I used to write the samurais. I can't remember if there – I do remember that it was a thing where Chuck would stop the sketch or ask – Yeah, he wanted to sing a song.

Okay. Okay. But, I mean, to my knowledge, to my recollection, I don't remember people getting pissed off at that because we wrote a lot of those things. And he was a great guy. He was such a put-on artist, too. And he was, and he was so tongue-in-cheek. Right.

He, to this day, is a a great guy. He was such a put-on artist, too. And he was, and he was so tongue-in-cheek. To this day, he's a real funny guy. So I don't remember him anything, but I don't have anything but good memories of Chuck. And I remember reading a story that with Louise Lasser, she was so out of it, that they were planning on doing all of her bits with Chevy Chase wearing a Mary Hartman wig. Wow, I missed that meeting.

And I remember, actually, because you mentioned her, when I was on Saturday Night Live, there was a cue card guy there who was an old guy. Al Siegel? Yes. Yes. Wow. Al Siegel.

And he kept on, he gave him too many changes between dressing and he says, I already had one heart attack, I don't want another! And he was one of these guys who had been in the business like, you know, since like early Greek dramas. Yeah, he held up cue cards for like, you know, Aristophanes.

Yes, exactly. And so I was talking to him and he was a very nice old guy and and i said uh so you've worked with everybody and and he goes yeah yeah and i said uh who were the real who were the worst to work with and he goes i don't know. You find most big stars are surprisingly very nice, considerate people, very kind people. And I said, but if you had a name, a total bastard. And he immediately goes. If you had to. Yeah.

If you had a name, a total bastard. And he goes, Raquel Welch. Well, yeah. There you go. Yeah. And like I said, I can't. I don't. Oh, I do remember.

Wait a second. It's coming back.'t, oh, I do remember. Wait a second. It's coming back. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I just had this flash. I can't remember. I'm going to get some of this wrong, but this was the essence of it. I can't remember if she had a manager with her or she came by herself. But either she or this manager

said, we want to show off her mind. And they kept on saying, oh, she's got an IQ of 176. And then you come in the next day, it was up to 183. By the time she did the show, it was boiling, okay? It was like 212.

Her IQ kept on going up. And that's what people are interested in watching raquel welch we could have we might as well have madam curie you're gonna go that way okay what are we talking about but she or her spokesman i can't remember who it was so we want to show off you know her intelligence and her comedic uh you know potential we don't we want to get away from the tits and ass part of it okay she came in with a list of sketches to propose each one was big tits big so it was wait a second we just had that other meeting you know what i mean so um but i couldn't tell you what was in that god it was so it was so many years ago, but there was nothing memorable about it other than,

you know, sometimes, and you've done so much, that you tend to remember the experience and not the product. You know, I've done things that were not successful, but in my mind, I remember making that movie or that show, Who was my friend? Who did I bond with? And it was a good time.

That's what I remember. And it's almost like as an afterthought, as a footnote going, oh, shit, Roger Ebert reviewed. I did a movie called North. Yes. Sure. I did a movie called North. Yes. Sure.

And Roger Ebert had a book out called, the title of it was, I hated, hated, hated, hated this movie. He was quoting the review he gave of my movie, North. Okay? Did you carry that review around? I don't have my wallet on me. It's downstairs. Oh, God. You've got to get it.

Can somebody, can we get? Yes. No, no. You know something? It may even be in my other bag. So I'll tell you what, it's a better thing to do. Go onto your computer, Roger Ebert, North Review, the review of North. Okay?

And if you can't print it out, let's bring over the laptop. Because I do this in my when i my speaking engagements i read it on the letterman show once i took out my wallet and i read it and but to me you know i guess we'll get to review when derek gets it the you know the experience was this wonderful experience are these readers or those are prescription oh these are yeah okay bringing are off. Okay. Okay, bring the laptop over. Okay, here is I won't read the whole review. I will read where is this? Okay.

Now let me set this up for you. Right? This is Come with me to hell, will you? Okay, this is what happened. I left SNL. I started writing plays. I wanted to stay in New York.

This was before it's Gary Shandling show, which brought me to LA. I wrote a book called North. Now, our son, Adam, was a young boy. He was about six years old. And he was at that age where Robert and I would be at the dinner table. And he would look across the table at us. And he knew from the expression on his face, the kid kid was thinking I could do better than these two people. So I wrote a book about a boy I called him North and he felt unappreciated by his parents

so he declared himself a free agent and went around the world offering his services as a devoted son to the highest bidding set of parents. I wrote the book and sent the galleys to Rob Reiner who had hosted the third Saturday Night Live and we were friends. And to this day we're still very close friends. And he said, you know, I'm becoming, he

loved the book and he had done one Harry Met Sally, he had done Spinal Tap, the short thing. And he had just done A Few Good Men. He said, let's make a movie out of this, okay? Well, this is a writer's dream. You write a book. You hide to write the screenplay.

And a $50 million movie is made. Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Jason Alexander, Bruce Willis, Elijah Wood. Alan Arkin. Oh, everybody. Kathy Bates. Who's that? Oh, everybody. Kathy Bates. Who's that? Kathy Bates. Kathy Bates.

Everybody's in it. Reba McEntire. Abe Vigoda. Abe Vigoda. Yes, Abe Vigoda. And there's a big premiere in Hollywood, right? And I fly my parents out from Florida. Did we say Bruce Willis?

We said Bruce Willis. And my parents are there, and it's the biggest night of my life. Oh, and there was an eight-year-old girl, her first acting job. Her name was Scarlett Johansson. She was in the movie. Oh, wow. So this is the biggest night of my life. This is great.

Next morning, the reviews come out, okay? And I don't know what your experience has been, but bad reviews are usually told to you by your family, not by friends. So my father would call and go, don't read Time Magazine. Page 67. Column 3.

So I wake up the next morning, and Roger Ebert, who's the big guy, it was Siskel and Ebert, right? Roger Ebert writes, I hated this movie. Hated, hated, hated. Hated, hated, hated this movie. Hated it. Hated every simpering, stupid, vacant, audience-insulting moment of it.

Hated the sensibility that anyone would like it, hated the implied insult to the audience by its belief that anyone would actually be entertained by it. Now, on the surface, this may seem like an unfavorable review, but read it again, and I think... There's subtlety between the words.

There's subtlety. I words. There's subtlety. I think he sort of liked it. And we were living in L.A. at the time where everybody roots for everybody else to fail. And my kids would come home from school. My son Adam would go, Dad, can we change our last name to Sorkin? Wasn't there a playground story? There was a playground story. My son Adam, it was shortly after this movie

came out. Adam was born in 81. Movie came out in 94. He was 12, 13 years old. He went to a school called Crossroads, which is a private school there. And he had a fight on the playground. Not a fist fight, but a back and forth verbal thing

with Mike Ovitz's son. Chris Ovitz's son. Okay, Chris Ovitz. Okay, so two 12-year-old kids. You're fat. I'm not fat. You're this. You're a bad athlete, this and that.

And then Chris Ovitz says, well, your father did North. Two 12-year-old kids fighting about box office receipts. That's cutting. Yeah. So I said to Adam, I said, when he told us this at the dinner table that night, I'm going, what did you say back? He said, well, I said, well, at least people like my father. And I said, oh, good.

We're raising him well. So it was, you know, and that was just a nightmare. But now I carry it with my wallet. It was, you know, and that was just a nightmare. But now I carry it with my wallet, and it's, you know, look, if I was the kind of person who was still sort of crippled by that, there would be something incredibly wrong with me. So we'll get to a couple more of the movies in Gary Shandling's show, but just take us back for a second.

SNL ends after a wonderful five-year run. I left in. I left after the 1979-80 season, the May of 80. Right before Gilbert came in. Right before Gilbert. Oh, Gene. You came in with Gene? Yes, yes. It was the worst time to join Saturday Night Live. Well, yeah, I felt badly for all of you only because it was in the shadow of this.

Yeah. Yeah, I understood. Now the cast changes like in the shadow of this. Yeah. Yeah, I understood. Now the cast changes like in the middle of a bit. What did you say at the time? It felt like, you know, you were following them. Yeah, if in the middle of Beatlemania, you said, John, Paul, George, and Ringo are gone, but there's these four other guys. Call them the Beatles and like them just as much.

That's a great way to put it. Who else was in your cast? Well, the only two you'd know, Joe Piscopo and Eddie Murphy. Okay, I remember Denny Dillon. Oh, Denny Dillon. Oh, very good. And Gail Mathias. Gail Mathias.

Excellent. Christine Ebersole. No, she came later on. Chris Rocket? What was his name? Yes. Charlie Rocket. Charlie Rocket. Excellent. Christine Ebersole. No, she came later on. She did? Rocket? What was his name? Yes. Charlie Rocket. Charlie Rocket.

And, yeah. Ann Risley. Yeah, Ann Risley. Wow. For you trivia buffs out there, go. Yeah. Was Tim Kazerinsky in there? No, he came later on.

He came with Ebersole. So what happens now? After five years, you've been on the biggest thing on television. It was a shock to the system. I wanted to stay in New York. I wanted to be a New York writer. I was now married. We had our first child, and we're living on the Upper West

Side, and I started writing plays, and I wrote that book, North. And I had been to the top, and I turned down tons of work. A lot of doors were opened but I didn't want to do another variety show because what could possibly be...

Did you work on the new show a little bit? Well, that came much later. Well, much later. In 1984. When the new show came, I worked on that show and that was basically, you know, it was a reunion.

You're Franken and Davis. I was a fan of that show. You're Franken and Davis. Sure. I was a fan of that show. I was sorry to see it go. I think it lasted 10, 12, 13 shows or something like that. And while I wasn't really struggling, I wasn't thriving either. I started writing other things that I wanted to do, magazine pieces and this and that. writing other things that I wanted to do, magazine pieces and this and that. But then I got a phone call in 86 from my manager, a man named Bernie Brillstein was my manager for 30 years. And he asked me if I knew who Gary Shandling was. And I said, yeah, I've seen him on TV. And he says,

well, he was doing a special for Showtime. And they needed a fresh set of eyes to help be the script consultant. So they sent me the script and they flew me out to LA and now I go straight from the airport to whatever restaurant to meet with Gary and we spoke about the script and we spoke about that special

that I would be helping out on and now I go back to my hotel room and I'm dead to the world because I'm on New York time. I check in, I'm in bed. It's now one o'clock in the morning, which is four o'clock in the morning for my body, right? The phone rings in my hotel and I'm dead to the world. I pick up, hello, Alan, it's Gary. I go, oh, hey man, what's doing? Alan, my dog's penis tastes bitter. You think it's his diet or what? I call my wife, Robert.

I said, I think I found the writing partner. So for me, having written all those years in SNL, wrote with everybody, but Gilda and I wrote probably We Were the Team. I teamed up with her more than I did. I also wrote with Herb Sargent and Ackroyd, but Gilda and I wrote probably We Were the Team. I teamed up with her more than I did. I also wrote with Herb Sargent and Ackroyd, but Gilda and I were a bit of a team. Lightning struck twice, because he was somebody else who thought the same way that I did,

and Shanling and I started It's Gary Shanling Show, and that lasted four years. Gilbert and I want to talk about The Shanling Show, but just before we get off, SNL, Christopher Lee is a favorite of ours. Did you write the Mr. Death sketch? Oh, God, yes, I did. That was originally Gildan, then became Lorraine?

There was a controversy over that. Such a wonderful piece. I know that it was a weird thing. I had an idea, because Christopher Lee played all these macabre films. Of course. We're just trying to get him for the show. He's in his 90s. Is he really?

Yeah. All the English Hammer films. He was great. He was giant. And so I had this idea where death comes back to apologize to a young girl for taking her dog. Okay? That's all I knew about it. And I pitched it,

and we actually did it, I think in dress rehearsal the previous week. I can't remember who the host was. It might have been a member of the cast who played Mr. Death. It was cut between dress and air, and I remember that Dave Wilson, the director, said, why don't we do that sketch next week when Christopher Lee because he would be perfect to play Mr. Death so it was held over to

the next week I can't remember exactly what happened I probably wrote it for Gilda. I wrote it with Herb Sargent. I think Gilda might have contributed to the writing of it. Lorraine Newman had no idea that Gilda was a part of it. Lorraine was an innocent here in this thing. She ultimately got the role in it. I don't know what happened for that to happen, but I do know that there were some hard feelings over it. But Lorraine did an amazing job.

Lorraine, in my estimation, she makes me laugh as much as anybody on the planet. I think she's, to this day, really funny. And I'm looking forward to seeing her at the 40th reunion show. I worked with her in Problem Child 2. Oh, I didn't know that. Now, see, and I'm glad you said that because I've heard stories where it makes Lorraine Newman

look like a bitch in this situation. No, no, if anything, Lorraine was a real lady about it, and she felt awful. She had no idea that Gilda was, A, going to about it, and she felt awful. She had no idea that Gilda was A, going to do it, and B, was involved in the writing of it. She had no idea. She might have been light in the show that week,

and so, Lorraine, you played. No, she was a total innocent, and she felt awful when everything came out. I remember seeing it and thinking it was such a tonal shift for the show. It was like a little mini one-act play. And I had seen every episode to that point. It was interesting. It was different. What I remember from that

bit, the one line that I remember is the little girl says to death, did you kill our lord? And he goes, no, that was the Romans. That was the Romans. I remember God, it, that was the Romans. That was the Romans. I remember, God,

so many years ago, yeah, because my mother used to say to me, because I used to have friends who weren't Jewish. When we were little, we were five and six, and when they would go to catechism, let's say, or parochial school, they'd come back, you know, after one day saying, I can't play with you anymore.

You killed our Lord. Jesus, what a day at school that was. So I would tell my parents, you know, Joey won't play with me anymore. And she would say, no, no, we didn't kill him. The Romans did. So I put that in that sketch. Now, also, I got to get to the other part of Saturday Night Live that it was so famous, like about like the drugs going on. You know, if there were, I didn't see it because I was so high myself.

I couldn't see what anybody else was doing. You know, look, it was the 70s. And, you know, I can't point fingers or anything like that. I have to start with myself. Let's put it this way. I don't know how I'm alive to this day. Given today's standards, you know, and what we know to be incredibly horrible for you and your body, there's no reason for me to be sitting over here. But I would have come back from the dead to be on this podcast.

Pulled that out of my ass, didn't I? That's an honor. have come back from the dead to be on this podcast. Pulled that out of my ass, didn't I? Well, I want to just tell our 12 listeners, if you can find that Christopher Lee sketch, and it's in the box set, it is absolutely worth watching. It's in the slot that Milton Berle would have been in, but yeah. So back to Shanling. Now, after a couple of years, you find yourself a new partner? I found a new partner in Gary, and he made me laugh a lot.

He was the single version of me. I had gone out to L.A. to do his special. He told me about this idea he had for a show where he spoke to camera, and he played himself, and he was a single guy. Coincidentally, I had had an idea that I was going to pitch to NBC about a married guy who was, well, I wanted to do my version of Dick Van Dyke. A comedy writer, your character.

It was my Dick Van Dyke show I wanted to do. So we married the two ideas together and this was Showtime, this was 86. there was no really original comedy programming on cable there had been a show on hbo what was the name of it it had the word on and it was two words and the second word was on with dream on dream on yeah okay yeah and and but showtime i don't believe

had any original comedy programming and we came along and they left us alone they totally left us alone and um it snuck in there you know and but you know a lot of people didn't get showtime in those days and so i remember what i would do is i is I would make cassettes and mail them to the world. The postal bills, the same post offices that don't exist, thrive for me. I would send out these things. Look at the show I'm doing because nobody saw it. So I think after the third season, the Fox network came into existence. And what they did was they gave, we gave Showtime an exclusive window for 30 days

to show its Gary Shandling show. And as of day 31, Fox was able to show it. I remember editing it for commercials and taking out some of the stuff that wasn't allowable. And it was on for an hour. They coupled it with Tracy Ullman on Sunday nights, so that's how it got a little bit more exposure. Not that Fox had a big universe back then either, but it was a few more people saw it. Such a smart show, and it was a show that rewarded

people of our generation that grew up on traditional sitcoms by turning it on its head. Well, that's absolutely right. And I must say that, Gary, for me, once again, it was, to my mind, to the sitcom, what SNL was to the variety show, what Letterman was to the talk show. Whenever, you know, we had a thing on SNL, and Gary and I did this on its Gary Shandling show, when SNL would be, okay, Carol Burnett would do it this way, how are we going to do it? So with Gary and I would be Happy Days or whatever the current, and even the good, the really, really good sitcoms, which, you know, Happy Days was on, and Mary Tyler Moore, and these were good shows, but they would do it this way. We went a little bit more theatrical with it, you know. So it worked, you know. Now, one thing that audiences then thought was new, but really wasn't new, was the breaking the fourth wall. Oh, my God.

You know, it was, look, we paid homage to George Burns, whose room we're in right now. Yes, yes. I think he's buried in this room. Yeah, because Burns, in the middle of a bit, would come out, stand in front of the TV, watch the TV, and go, looks like Gracie. Harry Von Zell. You know what he did? Now, I'm going to get the players wrong, okay? There was Harry Von Zell, and there was another Harry Morton.

Oh, yes. One way or the other. He's the other. Okay? I think Von Zell was first and was replaced by Harry Morton, or it could have been the other way. But let's say it was that. Well, it was Fred Clark.

Okay, was it Fred Clark who I'm thinking of? Yes. This is what I'm doing. Okay, correct me then. Maybe it was Fred Clark who I'm thinking of? Yes. This is what I'm doing. Okay, correct me then. Maybe it was Fred Clark. What Burns did was in the middle of a bit, whoever we're talking about was married, okay? He said, I just want to tell you all that this guy,

whoever it was, is leaving the show. He's done well. We wish him well. And he will be replaced by, and he brought out the replacement, and he says, be replaced by him, Fred Clark, Harry Von Zell,

whoever it was, and he will, and whoever the wife was, like was Bea Benederit or somebody like that. You two are now husband and wife. Okay, continue with the scene. He made a cast change

in the middle of the bit and they just did it effortlessly. Which is so hip when you think about it. Think about it. In the middle of a scene, replacing him, introducing, okay, now you're husband about it. Think about it. In the middle of a scene, replacing him, introducing, okay, now you're a husband and wife, now play nicely.

And Bea Benederick, she was like the Trixie character, a Rubble, Sparney Rubble. Yeah, she was Betty Rubble. The voice of Betty Rubble. That's how, as a kid. She was also a Petticoat Junction. That's right. Oh, yes.

That's right. God. I think that was, is that the first example of a show, certainly of a sitcom, breaking the fourth wall like that, where a character steps out of character? I don't know how far Jack Benny went. Yeah. I know he was in front of the curtain. But Benny, but it was a different show

with a different... Well, Benny pretended he was on stage talking to an audience. That's exactly right. Who I don't think was ever there. We were talking about Groucho breaking the fourth wall in Horse Feathers. Just stops the scene and walks out

and addresses the camera. Absolutely. And then goes back to the scene. So it wasn't that Burns had invented it, but maybe for television. I might have seen it for the first time on television with Burns. Sure.

But, you know, I was of the generation where I first knew about Groucho Marx from You Bet Your Life and then learned that they were Marx Brothers movies. So the TV show came first. Yeah, that's how it happened with me, too. The same order, right? And then when I saw Duck Soup and Horse Feathers, I just went nuts. Yeah, me too. Yeah.

And it's unbelievable. Well, Duck Soup is the one that killed them at Paramount. Is that right? That was the biggest loser. And now you look at it, and it's ingenious. That's their best film. Yeah. Yeah, lost them their contract. There's a book that we might want to look up the exact title to.

It's written by Roy Blunt Jr. And it's called remember in Duck Soup was Hail Hail Fredonia. Sure. Yes. The name of this book is Hail Hail Something Else. We'll find out in a second. Our research, our crack research. Our crack research, our Godfrey.

And if you read this book it's about the making of Duck Soup. Really? Not only how certain lines were and the script changes and this and that. And if you read this book, it's about the making of duck soup. Really? Not only how certain lines were in the script changes and this and that, but it's against a backdrop of World War II have starting. Here you go. Research has arrived. Hail, hail, hail, hail, hail, euphoria.

And I recommend this book to any Marx Brothers. Thanks, Darren. Thank you, Darren. And if I recommend this book to any Marx Brothers, thanks, Darren. Thank you, Darren. To any Marx Brothers fan, because it puts it into a global context of what was happening in Europe with the World War II was going to happen soon and all of that. Now, when they ask Groucho later, do you know, do you purposely make some sort of satirical comment about what was happening? So we were just trying to be funny.

But if you do look at what it was in the midst of... It's pretty subversive. It's very subversive. I don't see how they couldn't have known. There was nothing like it before. Maybe The Great Dictator. Well, that was later. So there was nothing like it. It was incredible. And it's really pretty fascinating. And it was one of the earliest political satires in film.

That's what I mean. They went to war because he called them an upstart. Oh, yes, yes. It's a studio basically talking about how stupid war is. And it was so surreal that their costumes change in between scenes. They'll have a Civil War outfit on. Yeah.

Margaret Dumont killed me in all those movies. Wonderful. I had heard somewhere that she had no idea what the joke was. They said that's what made it so funny. She really didn't know. No clue. The Shanley show is a big success.

And what happened then? I mean, you're writing movies, too, while this is going on. I co-wrote Dragnet with Dan Aykroyd. And that did well. So you're branching out into other mediums all over the place. I'm branching out into other mediums. And I started having plays produced here in New York. At the Ensemble Studio Theater, they have a marathon every year.

So I started doing that. I hear you say you missed the immediacy of SNL, that you wrote the thing that day and there was the laugh. Well, right now I write Broadway shows. I write movies and I write books. And if I'm lucky, it sees the light of day two years from now. Here, they write the show on tuesday it's on television saturday you i remember you know there's a dress rehearsal at for us with 7 30 i think it might be

eight o'clock now it doesn't matter with a full audience and you do the whole show everybody's in wardrobe and the band plays it's a show and then between dress and air it's determined what's going to stay in the show what's going to be's determined what's going to stay in the show, what's going to be cut. And whatever's going to stay, you try to punch up and you bring, you know, make it as good as possible and bring it to cue cards, Al, the cue card guy. The late Al. And I remember that I would go upstairs if I got my changes in to cue cards early enough. Then it wasn't 24 hour um news you know it was the 11 o'clock news I'd go upstairs watch the 11 o'clock news and if something struck

me as funny I'd write a joke and it would be on television a half hour later when I was with SNL there were two shows where while they were on the air live doing Weekend Update, I was under the desk writing jokes and handing it out to them. One time in particular is we did a live show from the Mardi Gras in New Orleans, and we had all of these jokes about the floats and the doubloons and the thing that was going to pass the reviewing stand, where Jane Curtin and Buck Henry were reviewing the parade. Something happened at the start of the parade that couldn't be predicted. There was an accident

and somebody died. So now we have all these jokes about this float that never came. I'm under the desk writing jokes about this parade that didn't exist. And finally, remember the last joke I wrote was that Mardi Gras is French for no parade.

That's funny. I was under the desk handing it up. That's funny. So you were doing, at this point, a little bit of everything. A little bit of everything. When the Shanling show ended, I had a choice to make, and this was a big mistake

it was a huge mistake I was being offered all sorts of these were the days of the big studio deals and Castle Rock which was my friend Rob Reiner's company offered me a three year deal with them to create TV shows for them and I was hot off of shandling

my manager Bernie Brillstein, CBS was in dead last in those years. And they signed boy, oh boy, God help me, Farrah Fawcett and Ryan O'Neill. Oh, good sports. And they, okay, and I got talked into, I allowed myself to get talked into doing it. And it was the only move I think I've ever made for the wrong reason. And I used to wake up in the middle of the night, my wife, Rob, would say to me, what's the matter? And she'd say, you don't want to do this show. But

I talked myself into doing it. It would be a big exposure. Maybe this would be the road to becoming, oh, I had also turned down, previous to that, they asked me to be one of the producers on Cosby, I turned it down, and one of the producers on Roseanne and turned it down. So I'm going, I got to do something. So I chose this, and it was the wrong move. We had a cast that had about three or four Tony Awards among them. The

writers' room had, oh, God, 17, 18 Emmy Awards among everyone, but the show just didn't work. For people that don't remember it, it was about two people running an ESPN type of sports show. Yeah, it was way before Sports Night. It was a ESPN kind of thing. Just sort of screwball comedy approach. Well, this was just, it was, you know, it was one of those situations that it just didn't work. It didn't work maybe because of the chemistry between the two of them. And they were living with each other.

You know? But then when that ended, when that went belly up, I did sign with Rob Reiner, kept his doors open for me. So I went there and did a couple of movies, did a number of pilots. And he did the story of the story of us with Bruce Willis and Michelle Pfeiffer. Did a few pilots with Rob, did a special with Tom Hanks and other people at NBC at ABC. And ultimately, there was a dip. There was a dip because nothing was getting traction.

And I, whatchamacallit, then my friend Larry David came along with Curb Your Enthusiasm, and I was a consulting producer on that for a couple of years. So that breathed life into my exposure anyway. And I was even on a show, you know, the last season of it. And then when Billy Crystal asked me to co-write 700 Sundays with him,

and I jumped all over that. And that's what basically brought me back to New York. We came here for rehearsals and previews and whatever. And I remember checking into what was then called the Riga Royal Hotel. It's now the London Hotel, where it says how many nights your stay will be. And it said 50. So I was here a long time. And our kids were getting older.

And they were starting to tip in this direction as they were leaving the house. So we came home. And it was a good move. It proved to be okay. I've been writing books, and I have... And tell us about The Other Shulman. Well, The Other Shulman was a novel that I wrote, which won the Thurber Prize.

You had mentioned it in your lovely intro of American humor. It was... And that was very... Because I love the premise of the book. Well, it was an autobiographical novel about a guy who was having trouble in his career. Okay, he wasn't a comedy writer. He owned a stationery store, and he was having a rocky time in his marriage. So what he basically did, he did what I did. When things weren't clicking clicking for me I saw a sign that said you two can complete

a marathon and this sign was in a Ben and Jerry's and I went home I told Rob and I said I told about this sign and she said you could you should do that I could do what you should run a marathon I said I'm a Jew at best I run for a bus. At best. And she said, no. She says, you're feeling sorry for yourself. This is after that horrible North review and all that. And some TV shows got canceled. And she said, you got to refresh your head. You need a goal to achieve. You got to get out of the house. got to get off the couch. So I joined a running group and I entered and I ran the New York City Marathon. Let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, I just correct myself here a little bit. When I say I ran the marathon, let's talk about the word

ran. You know, the New York City Marathon, you start in Staten Island, go over the Verrazano Bridge. Now you're in Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, the Bronx, Manhattan again, into Central Park West, to have it on the green 26.2 miles later, you run a marathon. I line up with 33,000 other people. On your mark, get set, go. I leave Staten Island. I go over the Verrazano Bridge. Now I'm in Brooklyn, about four miles into the race, when word comes back that the winner had not only crossed the finish line, but was already on a plane back to Kenya.

But it was a nice day, so I went. But moving back here did prove to be a wonderful thing because that book won an award. That book is about a guy running the marathon and what his life is like today and a lot of flashbacks. And it's very clever because each chapter is another mile, so there's 26.2 chapters in the book. A children's picture book called Our Tree Named Steve.

I wrote a novel with Dave Barry called Lunatics, which they're threatening to make a movie out of. And I've got a couple more books coming up. And I was asked to write the book for a Broadway musical version of Feel the Dreams. So hopefully that will happen, but I was asked to write the book for a Broadway musical version of Feel the Dreams. So hopefully that will happen but I was asked if I'd like to do it

and you never saw a Jew raise his hand faster than I did. It's a wonderful movie and a wonderful book. And speaking of Larry David, did I hear this correctly or find this in my research? You inspired the famous Pez Seinfeld episode?

Larry and I went to, when we were hanging out in New York, okay, we would do stuff on a Sunday afternoon, and we went on the Upper West Side in one of those churches or something there. There was a Sunday afternoon concert given by a pianist named Claude Franck. And Larry and I were sitting in the first row. And on the ground, on the floor in front of one of us, was a Pez dispenser.

And for some reason, we got the giggles because of the Pez dispenser. And years later... He used it. he used it. To his credit. Larry is a genius that can take the smallest little thing that we all pass over and don't even think about, and he'll make a whole meal out of it. It's something that, you know, I just marvel at. Stuff that we just sort of glide by, you know, he'll stop and he'll make something out of it.

Like Pez Dispensers. Yeah, it turned out to be an iconic television moment. Who were some of the other people back at the improv? Back when you guys met? Yeah. Okay, Glenn Super. Yeah. Oh, the bullhorn.

Oh, my God, yes, yes, yes. Ed Bluestone, who had the greatest one-liners. Funny guy. Oh, yeah. He had great one-line jokes. There's a lot of ways you can be offensive at someone's funeral. Shake the widow's hand with an electric buzzer. He used to talk about Jewish hunting.

You shoot the animals while they're still in the cage. And he said sometimes they make it really daring. They leave his feet untied. So he was there. Wayne Klein was there. Jay Leno was there. Oh, yes. I worked with Wayne Klein. He was a Leno

writer. Yeah, good guy. Andy Kaufman would come in. Andy Kaufman would come in. Andy Kaufman would come in. Wait a second. Robert Klein would come in every so often. Brenna. Dangerfield all the time. Dangerfield.

We're talking about the catch now in the 70s? Or the old catch? The catch from the 70s. We're talking about 74, 75. Well, catch. the catch from the 70s. They're talking about 74, 75. Well, catch.

Had a different, some performers only performed in one place and some performed in both places. When I was working at catch, like in the very beginning, Gabe Kaplan would still be there. Was this before Welcome Back Carter? Yes. He used to do it as a bit,

the Welcome Back Carter. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, he used to talk about there was this group and there was Horseshack. Oh, the Sweat Hogs. Yeah. Oh, wow, see, I didn't even know that. And then, yeah, it was just like another bit he had. There was, I saw him a couple of years ago.

I wasn't playing, I don't play poker, but I was over somebody's house and there was a poker game. I think he's like a Gator, right? Yeah, he's a championship poker player. But back then, there was a woman named Emily Levine. Oh, yeah. There was Billy, but Billy Crystal was most, I don't think catch as much as, I think it was catch more so than the improv. He was there. Same with Bren most, I don't think Catch as much as, I think it was Catch more so than the improv. He was there.

Same with Brenna, I think. I remember him mostly from Catch a Rising Star. Oh, there was a guy, Lenny Schultz. Oh, Lenny Schultz. Oh, yes, yes. He's still around. Is he really? Well, I don't know if he works.

He's alive. He's alive. Lenny Schultz. Yeah. I remember him in a chicken suit. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he did. He would just go nuts on stage

he would come in with a chaise lounge and he would open and close it like an accordion oh Larry Raglin Larry Raglin oh god when Bob Saget was on this show

he asked me to sing the famous Larry Ragland song, Dummy in the Window. Oh, God, Dummy in the Window. That's right. Someone else remembers Dummy in the Window. Well, wait a second. Not only Dummy in the Window. You remember Carl Waxman?

Yes. Okay. Who had a reputation at the time for appropriating other people's material. And I think Billy Crystal. I thought it was Richard Lewis. Oh, okay. Which said about Carl. Carl drove by after work one day,

and Richard Lewis said, that's a stolen car. I think it was Billyy crystal who was there and and carl waxman was on stage and afterwards billy crystal went over to him and said you know that bit you do about the supermarket uh robert klein's been doing that for six years. And Carl Waxman goes, oh, yeah? Well, I've been doing it for four. So it's sort of hilarious. It squatters rights in a way.

So he's not only a joke thief, but he's bad at math. He's bad at math. Thinking that four was bigger than six. There was a couple... What was the name of the... The Untouchables was a group. Marvin Braverman. Buddy Mantia.

Bobby Alto. Buddy sat in on one of our podcasts. And then when Marvin Braverman moved to L. Yes. They used to. Yeah, but he sat in on one of our podcasts. And then when Marvin Brafman moved to L.A. to try to pursue a career there, then it was just Alto and Mantia. Oh, there's no longer the Untouchables. Yes. I didn't know that they went through that.

Was Dennis Wolfberg around then? Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. Another funny guy. Wow. Yeah. No, wow. Another funny guy. Wow. Yeah. No, this is... Ronnie Shakes.

Oh, yeah. Oh, he was funny. He died, right? Yeah, so did Dennis. He died at like 40 or something. Dennis, too. Dennis died young. But Ronnie Shakes had a line that made me crazy that I loved.

He said that he had been going to the same shrink for like eight years. And he said, and this afternoon I saw him and he said three words to me after eight years that brought tears to my eyes. No, I'll blow English. no hablo ingles because we all do this for a living but there are certain jokes and certain things you go wow okay when I was with SNL when we used to have read through

I used to just sit back and you know there would be other people who write sketches I'd go shit I should have written that oh I could have done this but when Dan Aykroyd read anything that he wrote, if I live to be a thousand, there's no way I can write basimatic.

Take a fish, put it in a blender and then drink it. I just sat back and enjoyed the ride. I was always fond of the joke about when Professor Backwards was murdered. The joke that was on Updates. Was that your joke? No, it was Michael O'Donoghue who wrote that joke. Professor Backwards died. He was murdered.

And it seems like because nobody responded to his cries of plaid. That was Michael O'Donoghue. I mean, Michael O'Donoghue was this genius. When he would write something, I just sat back and you know, with O'Donoghue,

I did a couple of speaking engagements at colleges with him. And we did two on the same trip, like the University of Akron. And we did it. I did 40 minutes, and then he came on and did 40 minutes. And now we're driving from Akron to someplace in Indiana, and I can't remember the exact school. And he says, what if we do something together at this next place? I said, okay, like what?

Now, Franken had been very, very successful. He was writing Point Counterpoint as a bit for Dan Aykroyd and Jane Curtin. So he says, what if we do a Point Counterpoint? And I said, okay, fine. So I said, what should the subject be? So he said to me, why don't you do the anti-antisemitism point? And I'll do the pro-antisemitism counterpoint. I had no idea what, I said, okay, fine.

So before the performance, I went to my room and I wrote the anti-anti-Semitism point, having no idea what he was going to write. Okay. We're in the middle of God's country in a field house. So I did 40 minutes. Michael did 40 minutes. And then he says, and now i'm gonna bring alan back and he and i are gonna do point counterpoint he says here with the um anti-antisemitism point

is alan and i had written something it wasn't very fun i didn't know how to make this funny maybe there was a titter or two in it and it was quick and now he does the pro-antisemitism counterpoint and he starts off saying Alan you overweight heeb fuck he continues

to whatever he said call me every Jewish slur that my people have been trying to get rid of for centuries. He was brilliant. He was brilliant. I have, there's one other story about him, which is probably better than this one. I was producing the weekend update segment of the show, the third or fourth.

Michael was only there a couple of years, so whenever he was there. And he called me. He said, what if weekend update is brought to you by a product that we make up? I said, okay, fine, go for it. So this particular week he had Don Pardo say, and now weekend update brought to you by Pussy Whip. Oh, yes. The dessert topping for cash.

Remember it well. And it worked really great. So there was this censor on the show, Jane Crowley. I don't know if she was there when you were there. No, no. I had one named Clotworthy. Oh, Bill Clotworthy. Good guy. She was on the show and

the following week I wanted to do a sponsor for Weekend Update. So for the dress rehearsal, I had Pardo say, and now Weekend Update brought to you by Blue Balls. Blue Balls. B-L-E-E-U. Blue Balls.

The cheese snack from France. Okay? It works great during the dress rehearsal. Jane Crowley comes out of the control room and she finds me and she says, you can't say that when we go on the air. I can't say why.

She says, you can't say blue balls. I go, why? And she says, because it has to do with the male genitalia. I said, well, last week you let us say pussy whip, which is clearly the female genitalia. But now this week, what kind of sexist organization are you running? And she said, give me a minute. And she goes to the control room, picks up a phone, calls God, I guess. She comes back 10, 15 minutes later.

She finds me and she says, Alan, gave a lot of thought. And I've come to the conclusion that because I gave you pussy whip last week, I'll be more than happy to give you blue balls this week. That's great. And I just said, that's not necessary. Just let us say it on TV. We'll call it even. That's great. I just remembered, that's not necessary. Just let us say it on TV. We'll call it even. That's great. I just remembered a censored joke.

And having to do with my trays, by the way. I did one joke with the trays saying, you know, Dolly Parton holding them against my chest. Right. And then I held it against my crotch saying Dolly Parton's brother. So they said this girl goes, okay this woman there with

the headset on, the Janet Jackson headset that they all wear. She goes, alright, I have to check it with the studio. Okay, and she explains the joke to them, and very seriously, she turns to

me and says, keep the tits, drop the balls. Here's a note. Here's a good note to get. Oh, and before I forget, because we were talking about Ronnie Shakes, maybe we'll put it back in there. My favorite Ronnie Shakes joke was one that he said, my biggest fantasy in life is to have sex with two women, not in a nighttime and in a whole life.

Oh, Jesus Christ. You have to get to dinner. Oh, God. We should wrap this up. Real quick before we go, can we get you to tell the boxer story, which is such a wonderful story? Well, yeah, I've done it on TV a few times. Do you want me to do it?

For people that haven't heard it, it's worth repeating. When I was running the marathon okay it was like running through my life because you know i was born in brooklyn my dad always had his place in manhattan the yankees were in the bronx so it was you know sense memories and i remember running through um queens and i had this flashback because Simon and Garfunkel, my favorite singers, were from Queens. And it just brought back a memory I had from when I was in college. I had a poetry writing class. And the teacher was this 92-year-old woman, this old crone named Ruth Katz. And I was failing the class.

And if I failed the class, who knows, I might have failed out of college. Vietnam was raging. So I had one more shot at submitting a poem that maybe she would like. And like I said, Paul Simon was my idol to this day. You know, it's uncanny what kind of poet he is. So what I did was, figuring she's 92, she wouldn't recognize the fact that I submitted the words to the boxer

as my poem. She's 92. So I submitted it. We handed out journals on Friday. On Monday, we're in class. She's handing back the journals. And she said, I read a poem this weekend that just knocked my socks off. Alan.

Alan, can you come up and read it to the class? So, and I'm going, no, I really don't. I'm glad you like my poem, but I don't like talking in front of people. I just don't like that. And she prevails on me. Now, you understand, everyone in the class are my friends, or my age at least, all of whom had record collections, and I'm about to read the liner notes

of the biggest-selling album. It won, like, 20 Grammys that year, okay? So I get up in front of the class, I look at the time, and I see there's still 40 minutes left in the period, so there's no way I'm running out the clock here. I take one more look over at

Dr. Katz. I was very disappointed to see she was still alive, okay? And I take the poem and I start going, I am just a poor boy, though my story seldom told. I've squandered my resistance for a pocket full of mumbles, such are promises.

All lies and jests, though no one hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. I take a breather. I look over the paper. And the whole class is like, what? Huh? And I look over at Dr. Katz, and she's beaming. She's just beaming at this Jew poet who's somehow captured the grittiness of New York streets.

And she goes, continue. Oh, fuck. When I left my home and my family, I was no more than a boy in the company of strangers in the quiet of the railway station running scared. Laying low, seeking out the poor quarters where the ragged people go, looking for the places only they would know. And that's when it happened. That's when everyone in the class started singing, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie.

And I look over at my teacher, the 92-year-old woman just says to the rest of the class, it's inspiring, isn't it? My favorite story. You know, you reminded me. Dinner's going to be late. No, no. It wasn't even like a funny story, but you were talking about the Vietnam War. Somewhere at home, I still have a draft registration card.

Wow. Really? Because by law, you had to go in and register for the draft. And I remember my mother going with me. So that was a scary time period. What number did you get in the draft? Do you remember? Was it high enough to exempt you? Well, they never actually notified me, thankfully.

Oh, because there was a lottery, if you remember. Yes, yes. They fixed 366 dates. But I had the card that I was registered. No, it's real scary stuff. Very, very scary. Anyway, you have some stuff to plug right now. Oh, I have a young adult book coming out in September.

It's a real funny book that I wrote with a guy named Adam Mansback. Adam Mansback wrote a children's book a couple of years ago that sold a gazillion copies. The name of the book is Go to Fuck to Sleep. Oh, yes. Yes. And it's really funny. And what's really, really funny, if you listen to the audio version, Samuel L. Jackson is reading a story to a little kid. I've listened to it.

It's great. And Samuel L. Jackson, go to fuck to sleep, him getting angry. So we met a couple, about a year and a half ago, and we wrote a young adult book called, right now it's tentatively called, Benjamin Franklin, Huge Pain in My Ass. Okay? But we may not be able to use the word ass. It's amazing that I'm writing a book with a guy who wrote Go to Fuck to Sleep. That was okay, but ass might be bad. Okay, so I'll plug that.

And Field of Dreams. Well, God knows. I'm just hoping that that comes about. And I'm writing another book with Dave Barry. Like we said, prolific. At the moment, untitled. Well, this has been Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast from the George Burns Room and the Friars Club in New York. I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santopadre.

And we've been talking to someone who may or may not be the tallest Jew writer. I'll get back to you on that. Bruce J. Friedman was tall. Yeah, okay. It's tall. It's hilarious. Thanks, Alan. Thanks for having me, guys.

It's hilarious. Thanks, Alan. Thanks for having me, guys. It's a treat. Some major office supply stores are closing, but the good news is that you can find low prices on supplies you need at Walmart. They have a broad assortment of office supplies, everything from copy paper to coffee. Right now, they have five packs of Georgia Pacific 20-pound 88 Bright Paper on rollback for just $13.47 and Avery 1.5-inch heavy-duty clear cover binders for just $6.74.

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