Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Ben Mankiewicz

Episode Date: April 5, 2021

Film critic, Hollywood historian and Turner Classics Movies host Ben Mankiewicz joins Gilbert and Frank to talk about his famous family, the depiction of his grandfather in David Fincher's "Mank," the real authorship of "Citizen Kane" and his well-received TCM podcast "The Plot Thickens." Also, Mickey Rooney finds religion, Harpo Marx attends a seder, Jerry Lewis leaves a mysterious voicemail and Ben remembers the late, great Robert Osborne. PLUS: "Duck Soup"! "Mad Dog of Europe"! Tony Curtis: fashion icon! Kirk Douglas knocks Joseph Mankiewicz! And Ben interviews Sophia Loren, Ernest Borgnine and Max von Sydow! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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With Circle K's Summer Road Trip game, you can win over a million delicious instant prizes and a grand prize of $25,000. Play at games.circlek.com or at participating Circle K stores. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. Our guest this week is a film critic, TV personality, political commentator, film historian, and a much admired host and presenter on Turner Classic Movies. In 2003, he became the second on-air host hired by TCM, following our one-time podcast guest, the late, great Robert Osborne. And he's gone on to host numerous film festivals, introduce thousands of movies, and host programs like Hollywood Hideaways, TCM Spotlight, and The Essentials, and conduct interviews with screen icons like Mel Brooks, Sophia Loren, Martin Scorsese, Jerry Lewis, Warren Beatty, Robert Redford, and Tony Curtis, just to name a few. He's also a contributor to the Peabody and Emmy-winning CBS News Sunday Morning,

and he's appeared on shows Jeopardy, Party Down, Big Love, and The Simpsons. He also happens to be a member of a very prestigious family. His father, Frank, was a longtime political advisor and a press secretary of Robert F. Kennedy. His great uncle was a multiple Oscar-winning writer-director, Joseph L. Mankiewicz, and as dramatized in the new movie Mank, his grandfather Herman Mankiewicz was a producer of such classic films as Horse Feathers and Duck Soup, and the Oscar-winning screenwriter of dozens of memorable Hollywood movies, including a little picture called Citizen Kane. Starting in 2020, he hosted the terrific TCM film history podcast, The Plot Thickens, about the life and career of filmmaker Peter Bogdanovich.

And we hope there's an all-new season of that show in the works. Frank and I are excited to welcome to the show a fellow movie obsessive and a man who agrees with me that Ace in the Hole is the best Billy Wilder movie, Ben Mankiewicz. Wow. Man, there's nothing like getting introduced as a TV personality to make you think that your career is basically worthless. What about the other five? This stuff's great. What about the other five? No, I got it.

It's all good. It's all good. Whenever I hear TV personality, I'm like, oh. You turned into Chauro. By the way, you mentioned that you hope there'll be a season two of the plot thing. And so right before I came on, I realized, oh, I got to, I texted our producer, Angela Carone. I'm like, hey, Angela, I'm about to go on a Gilbert's podcast. Oh my God, that's great.

I'm like, yeah. So what can I say about, can I, you know, talk a little bit about, you know, what we have in store for season two? And her response, let me see if I can read it clearly here. No. Can you tell us if it'll follow the same format, at least? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll follow the same format. And it's good. And we have actually two and a half in the pipeline, like ready to go. We have, you know, the second season, the third season, and then we're, we're even, we may shoot a tape, another one also. So we got a lot of stuff going on and it's definitely,

it's definitely coming in. A lot of work has already been done. And Ben, am I allowed to do away with my first question? Was anybody else in your family and show business? Yeah, you could leave that one out yeah um uh yeah it's uh um you know i i came to uh i grew up in dc because you mentioned my father was in politics and i i knew that there was this stuff that we'd had with the mankiewicz's in in hollywood right i mean i knew my grandfather wrote citizen kane it didn't really mean anything to me for a long time and that joe was a very successful writer director and my my, my cousin, Tom Mankiewicz, Joe's son, you know, he wrote,

I think officially wrote three Bond movies, really wrote five. He wrote Superman one and two, um, uh, directed, uh, Dragnet and I think Delirious, um, created Heart to Heart. That's right. Tom Mankiewicz. Um, that's right. Tom Mankiewicz. So the right. Tom Mankiewicz. So the very funny, cynical, amusingly cynical fellow. But none of that mattered. Like my dad was a big deal. So I came to L.A. like between my junior and senior years of college for the I spent the summer with my cousin John Mankiewicz, who's a writer, a really good writer also. And and I went to a party with a cousin of mine whose last name isn't Mankiewicz, but he's a Mankiewicz, who's a writer, a really good writer also. And I went to a party with a cousin of mine whose last name isn't Mankiewicz, but he's a Mankiewicz, Tim Davis. And he introduced me to whoever's throwing the party. And he said, this is my cousin, Ben Mankiewicz. And he said,

of the Mankiewicz's? And I was like, yeah. And he put his feet together and bowed and said, Hollywood royalty. And I was like, I mean, I was like, well, I'm 21. I'm like, I don't know what you're doing, man. You know, it's like you look over your shoulder expecting that, like, you know, Larry Spielberg was there. Like, I was like, yeah. So it took me a while to get that to a small subsection of people out here that that name meant a great deal. Now, we mentioned already Citizen Kane that your grandfather wrote.

And there's arguments back and forth of whether it was 100 percent your grandfather and Orson Welles never lifted a pen or a collaboration. I think, you know, I swing back and look. I want to defend my grandfather, and I think that because he wrote, it was his idea, and he wrote that giant, monstrous first draft, which, you know, David Fincher will tell you, who just directed Mank,

was everything that's in the movie is in there, just about, right? But part of writing is taking a 300-page screenplay and turning it into a manageable screenplay, and that was really mostly Wells. So I think you can... Obviously, there was a collaboration, but the correct name is first in the credits.

But I always thought it was weird because I think the Wells people, like your, like our season one subject on the plot thing, it's Peter Bogd article said, suggested that it like, it minimized Wells. And it didn't just minimize him in the screenplay. It suggested that, hey, man, like Greg Toland shooting it and Herman's screenplay. Like, Wells just sort of filled in the blank. Like, that's Orson Welles' movie. And I think that once you establish that with a Wells defender, then they're much more open to hearing that maybe Herman deserves more of the credit for the screenplay. But anyway, he was very proud of it, Herman was. And he was a really talented writer and he never believed that writing movies was worthwhile. It was a shame to what he did.

And that's really the first time he wrote something that he was proud of. he did. And that's really the first time he wrote something that he was proud of. So what we see in Mank, where in the third act, he has a change of heart from the agreement that he'd made with Wells and decides, I've written something really good here, and I think I do want to have my name on it. That's consistent with what you know to be the truth. Yeah, I don't know the actual sequence of events, but yeah, clearly that was he agreed not to take credit. And then he was like, oh, that's pretty good. You know, and he didn't care about, you know, and there was all that self-sabotage that taking credit might destroy your career.

And that, of course, made him want to take credit even more. He was always destroying his career, full of self-loathing and self-sabotage. Well, being, you know, as you see in the movie, you know, very well liked. And did he and Orson Welles ever speak to each other again after that? I don't think so or not really. And maybe they would have. You know, I think that Herman probably would have enjoyed Orson's downfall. Right.

And that would have made him interesting. I And that would have made him... Interesting. I think that would have made him compassionate toward him. You know, because once Wells stops being the arrogant boy wonder and sort of has sort of blow after Hollywood blow dealt to him, he becomes a more sympathetic figure. And Herman liked to clearly like to switch it up on you. Like if you expected him to do one thing, he liked doing something else.

One thing the movie, I don't want to say got wrong, because it, you know, Fincher can do whatever the hell he wants. It's his movie and it was wonderful that he made it, I think. But like Herman was, Herman was against isms. I mean, Herman would argue for progressivism, like he did in the movie, right? Polit politically, if he were with a bunch of who he would consider fascists like, you know, Louis B. Mayle corporate control of America, Herman would have said, those are the people who give your guys jobs. What are you, insane? You'll ruin the country. He just, he argued with whoever was talking. So he was hard to pin down politically. He was never,

he was never one thing. No, no, no, not at all. No, he was certain. And he was a very, I mean, he was a strong anti-communist. That's, that's for sure. But he was also, you know, progressive in his, uh, ideas, but, uh, yeah, he liked, uh, uh, he liked arguing. He was good at it. What did the family think, Ben, when, when, when you first found out that a $25 million studio picture being made by an A-list director in black and white about your grandfather and, and how early in the process were you informed? I was, I mean, I was like, I was never informed. I mean, nobody was informed. I mean, that was great. I couldn't believe it. I didn't believe it until I saw it, until Fincher, he had,

you know, I was doing a piece for CBS Sunday Morning and he screened it for just me and my wife in their studio that they own part oh that's cool in hollywood and he wanted me to see it on the big screen and i mean the until he comes up the title card comes up mank and i mean i just i mean i started to cry you're just like i can't believe this exists so yeah i mean people ask me what i think of it i thought it was awesome it was awesome. It was about my grandfather. It was called Manc. They say Manc 135 times in the movie. What do you think? I thought it was fantastic. And you have a little cameo in it, too. Yeah, that's right. That was

nice. Nice adventure, yeah. Yeah. And just so, we already know the answer to this, and we've talked about it on this show. But from a Mankiewicz, we want you to say it. What does rosebud in Citizen Kane mean? I think, you know, I mean, obviously, it means the lost childhood. It's what you don't have. It's the love of your mom, right? You know, it means the, you know, the lost child. It's what you don't have. It's the love of your mom. Right. You know, surrendered.

And what you're chasing your whole life. But my grandfather had a bicycle that may have been a Rosebud branded bicycle. The name is. But then again, I might be making that story up. I can't tell what I read and what's. But anyway, he had a bicycle that I think was called Rosebud. And he loved it. It gave him freedom growing up.

Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. This has got to be like 1909, 1910, right around there. He's 10, 11, 12, 13 years old. And he gets his bicycle that he always wanted. And he goes to the library, you know, to read the way those rebel kids do. And whatever, he didn't lock his bike. Who locked their bikes in 1910? I say, like, I know what happened in 1910.

His bike got stolen and his parents were furious, or at least his dad was, who's the kind of person who got furious a lot. And they didn't replace it and they blamed him for it. I mean, I love it. What parent today would be like, my kid went to the library. It's great.

Right? Yeah. I love it. What parent today would be like, my kid went to the library. Great. And so, you know, there was a that was a, you know, not as profound, but that was a loss of freedom. And that was the trigger to. Because the story about the bicycle is true. I don't know whether the name. I think that I think bad boy Gilbert was trying to lead you down a different road there, Ben. He was trying to, what Rosebud was, the inside joke of what Rosebud was. Yeah, I don't know whether that's true. Right, Marion Davies' love part. Yes, that's right. And that may well, I'd like to think William Randolph first had a lovely nickname for that.

Yeah, so my story was slightly less illicit. And that may well, I'd like to think William Randolph first had a lovely nickname for that. Yeah. So my story was slightly less illicit. Yes. I mean, still good. A little boy in a library. Still good. Pretty good. It's pretty good. Still good.

I think it's sweet that you got emotional. And I'm sorry that your dad wasn't around to actually see it and experience it. That was a big part of why I got emotional, that my dad would have loved it. Because I didn't know my grandfather. But that is what you see in the way Gary Oldman played him, the way Fincher directed it. That's how my dad described his grandfather, his father, 100%. Yeah. Interesting.

Very interesting. Tell us, too, what Gilbert found this fascinating. We were talking the other night, doing the research on your dad's childhood. And your dad was suitably unimpressed by the fact that that all of these people were in his home as a child, including Harpo Marks, who we read came to Passover Seders. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were. My dad grew up in a kosher home. Herman didn't care, but his mom, my grandmother did. Go, ma. Yeah, Harpo Marx was there all the time, always playing cards, gambling. Love that. With Herman. But, you know, all, I mean, you know, you know, I mean, F. Scott Fitzgerald. Thurber.

Yeah, James Thurber. Amazing. And never, no movie talk, right? All politics, all literature, theater. It's funny. I still, I mean, I know he was a person, but I still can't conceive of Harpo actually speaking. I know, totally.

And not honking a horn or anything. I don't think he brought the horn to Seder. When he wanted another card in blackjack, instead of saying, hit me, he would honk the horn. That's how Harpo played. I want to talk about your pop for a minute

too and kind of put the puzzle pieces together because your dad's is it fair enough to use the word disdain for show business or he just, he was just unimpressed. Yeah, he was unimpressed because he grew up and his dad was unimpressed. You know, Herman was unimpressed and they just talked about important stuff, man. It was a very, you know, my dad was the smartest person in any room that anybody was in, right? Like he was always the smartest person, even in rooms filled with really smart people. So,

but he was an entertainment lawyer for a bit he like repped uh steve i was gonna ask you about that yeah steve mcqueen james mason james mason jay silverheels my brother said jay wow tonto shows up at the house in costume you know oh my god yeah um and uh but he just thought you know he didn't that didn't uh that didn't, uh, move the needle for him. My dad would have been great screenwriter too. Um, and he, uh, you know, and then like John J JFK was elected and there was this calling the new frontier and he literally just called, he knew somebody in McNamara's office, the secretary of defense.

He called, he was like, Hey, I'm, uh, my name is Frank. I'm, you know, whatever he was then 36 years old. I'm a lawyer. I want to serve. What do I do? Where do I go? And that led to, uh, being Latin American director of the peace corps eventually. So, uh, and that, that took him into politics. He met Bobby Kennedy and that, that set the stage for that, the life that my dad ended up leading. Now growing up or you, uh, was your house filled filled with, like, legendary names? Yeah, I mean, we'd have dinner parties.

And, like, I remember taking Barbara Walters' coat. You know, like, that was... And, you know, like, you know, my daddy ran George McGovern's campaign. And, you know, Bobby Kennedy was murdered when I was one. But, you know, he'd been over. And the first football game I went to at RFK stadium in Washington, I sat in the Kennedy's box, you know, I believe me, I had no appreciation at all for that. That was pretty cool. But yeah,

so there were, there were political people and media people coming over all the time, you know you know, the the, my dad played softball every sunday when he was president of national public radio um for about six years and he played for the npr team which was managed by bob edwards and i went to every game and i watched and i'd keep score um like i didn't think it was a big deal that bob edwards was the manager of the team turned out bob edwards a big deal um you know and uh and he hired you know my dad all these women who are now you know, and he hired, you know, my dad, all these women who are now, you know, he promoted at NPR, you know, Anita Totenberg and Cokie Roberts. Yeah, he had a big impact on NPR. Yeah,

he did. Huge impact on NPR. He started Morning Edition. I have to ask you, it's uncomfortable, but you can still see the YouTube video of your dad making that announcement. First of all, he was in the Ambassador Hotel helping Ethel Kennedy down from the stage. And what did you say, about 30, 40 feet behind? That's what he said, yeah. When the shots rang out? Yeah, yeah. So Bobby says, on to Chicago. That's when they're in the Ambassador Hotel in Washington when Bobby Kennedy wins the 1968 Democratic California primary,

giving him a big boost heading into the convention. He's probably, no guarantee, but I think he's going to be the nominee. Oh, I think so. And then probably the president. And then so they all rush off with Bobby through this back way that they're going to go through the kitchen. And Ethel was like 110 months pregnant and and she says she's on the stage and she says that's okay boys go ahead i just get off the stage myself and so rosie greer uh who was helping out bobby with security and very active politically

then and uh as were some other prominent athletes uh my, and, and, and Rosie Greer went to help her off the stage. And so they were behind with Ethel, uh, when the shots, uh, when the shots rang out and the YouTube video you're referring to is my dad announcing. Yeah. Um, sorry. I live near the Santa Monica airport. So you get some planes here, but that's okay. The YouTube video you're referring to is, um, is my dad making the announcement, um the announcement that Bobby, on June 6th in the morning, that Bobby Kennedy had died after about 36 hours or so after being shot. And, you know, my dad was always so tough and strong. And as he walks off this sort of makeshift stage they have, he's going down a couple steps. Somebody reaches over.

He told me who it was and holds his arm as a brace. You know, I had never seen my dad need anybody to help him like that. So that's what gets me about that. It's even hard to look at today. I mean, he looks ashen, and he looks like a man who's been up for, which I'm sure he was, a man who had been out without sleep for a number of hours. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, of course he hadn't gone to sleep yeah since the night before since two nights before and uh he said what kept him going through

all that you know campaigns were small then like bobby was one of his you know three or four closest friends there weren't there were like six guys on the campaign i mean i'm exaggerating but there weren't so dad said what you know like what kept him going was the fact that he had to set up a press room immediately at the ambassador hotel to handle so like he had to get phones installed and you know set get chairs set up for everybody and he had like you know two assistants volunteers to help him do all that and so it was just constant talking to press keeping things going that that the thing that gets me about that is that moment where he, my dad's announcing who was with him and he says, you know, uh, his sister-in-law, Mrs. John F.

Kennedy. And you're like, oh, I know, man, that family, that moment, that's so, you know, that she's there with him. That's just five years later, less than five years. Amazing. Of course. And he was working into, in both administrations. And I mean, and I later, less than five years. Amazing. Of course. And he was working in both administrations. And I mean, lived through, obviously, saw both of his employers gunned down. Yeah, my dad, when he was in Peru and the Peace Corps when JFK was killed, and he was in some meeting and he came out into the street afterwards at the end of the meeting, goes down the elevator, stairs, whatever, comes out in the street to go to his car. And he said people were walking around the streets in lima the street he

was on and like just you can tell instantly something's going on people are like walking around they look like a state of shock right people are whispering and get people are just staring and my dad asks somebody you know que paso what's happened um and the guy says you know el presidente murio you know whatever however you say that correctly in Spanish. President died. And my dad says, oh, lo siento. I'm so sorry. And the guy says, no, you're president, which is another idea of how big a deal JFK was in Latin America.

And he visited the grave every year, your dad, didn't he? Bobby's, yeah. Yeah, Bobby's. Yeah. Yeah. That's sweet. Always Bobbies, yeah. Yeah, Bobbies. Yeah. Yeah. That's sweet. Yeah, always. Brought flowers, yeah.

It's sweet. And it's interesting to see that he never became disillusioned, you know, in light of everything. These two earth-shattering events that must have affected him so directly and deeply. Oh, totally, yeah. I mean, and his sister was killed in California. Sister, great writer, Josie Mankiewicz, my daughter's name for her, and killed in a cab accident. Two cabs hit each other. She was standing on the corner with my cousin. I didn't know that. I'm sorry. silence really did shape him but no he was always really optimistic it wouldn't matter i mean you could see like a poll that would show you know reagan leading mondale 57 to 40 and dad would be like you know he's down to 57 and mondale's in the 40s i sense this is turning around you know you have to love him for that yeah he was always he was always he was wrong a lot he was really

smart but he he did he always thought the best of this country he really did he was always these that he didn't live through the trump era as a comforting yeah to me my brother in some ways yeah because that would have blown his mind tell tell us about mad dog of europe oh yeah mad dog of europe that's great that's fascinating so in, this is how smart and on it my grandfather was. In 1933, that's the year Hitler came to power, right, in Germany. He wrote a screenplay called Mad Dog of Europe. It's hard to know whether it was about Hitler. The young fascist in its name is Adolf Mittler.

I love that. He wasn't exactly oblique. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they didn't even go with, like, Heinrich Mittler. He's like, no, Adolf Mittler, that's good. I got it. That's enough.

I changed H to M. I'm not going any farther. That's it. And then the studios wouldn't, you know, they tried for a long time to get the movie made and there were people be interested in it and it got passed down. But I mean, year after year after year went by into the forties when there was still some interest in, in making it.

But you see the letters from the production code office from Joe Breen. They were, they were terrified of, you know, offending German Americans. You know, I mean, Hollywood, you know offending uh german americans um you know i mean hollywood you know did not did not take a tough stand uh on fascism for forever i mean the you know oh yeah money dictated everything and i i get that to some extent but anyway the movie never got made but it's a fun uh it's a fun uh screenplay to read and and uh this was like um they they felt like they were making so much money out of germany i think that was part of it part of it was the german market part of it was ben says offending german americans yeah it's both i you're right go over to that also it was

just getting they didn't want to piss uh these off because, you know, they wanted the movies. Every studio wanted their movies to play in Germany. Right. And, you know, as the but the great thing was, is that, you know, and it's in my grandfather's New York Times obit, is that he was his movies were banned. Oh, yeah. Joseph Joseph Gurgles banned all Herman Mankiewicz movies in Germany. Joseph Goebbels banned all Herman Mankiewicz movies in Germany. I mean, I think they ended up banning just about every movie, but they specifically early on because of Mad Dog Europe banned Herman Mankiewicz movies. And my dad was on Nixon's enemies list, White House enemies

list. So it's like pretty good. Like you get one guy on Hitler's enemies list and another guy on Nixon's enemies list and not... Two badges of honor. two badges of honor two badges of honor obviously one a lot worse than the other but still both uh both that's pretty proud those are good enemies and i heard they used to like have send them movies the american films to germany and germany would give them notes oh Oh, I didn't know that. That's awesome. Yeah. Like, oh, this sounds like a little too anti-Nazi and stuff like that. I have notes.

You read the – I read the – to help my dad out with his book, which is worth reading for anybody who can find a copy now, So As I Was Saying. Well, plug it. People can find it on Amazon. Yeah, his memoir is called So As I Was Saying, and it's about growing up in Hollywood and politics and all these sort of great stories.

My dad's sort of at the center of a lot of things that went on during his life from the 60s into the end of the century. And so I helped him and read a bunch of the exchanges about Mad Dog Europe, and you can see what you were talking about, Gilbert, this notion that the production code office, they were just essentially terrified the entire time. Right. Like, oh, we can't do this because Lord knows how heinous, how terrible it would be if, God forbid, we offended some people. Right. If we got to except for people who were already offended and we don't care, we're going to offend them forever.

Like, we don't care. We're going to offend black people. That doesn't concern us, right? But these guys in Germany who might keep us from marketing our movie there, we cannot offend them. And that was a consistent theme. Just comes up again and again and again. Yeah. It turns up in Mank, actually.

There's that scene where they're in Hearst Castle and they're talking about Hitler when they have Chaplin sitting at the piano. And I think it's L.B. Mayer's character says, we're not going to alienate that market. We're not going to lose a market as big as Germany. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. You talk about Hollywood kind of coddling fascism. I mean, Gilbert, this is a favorite movie of yours, The Mortal Storm in 40. Modeling fascism. I mean, Gilbert, this is a favorite movie of yours, The Mortal Storm in 40. But really, that's kind of the first full blown anti-fascist movie to come out of a Hollywood studio. And that's seven years after Herman is writing his screenplay. Yeah, that's right. Mortal Storm was the first time. Took till 1940.

Took seven long years. And even then, you won't hear the words Germany spoken in The Mortal Storm. But I got it. Everybody knows. Yeah. Yeah. You know what's funny to me about when they finally did start handling the Nazis in movies, they never used the word Jew. You wouldn't know that there was any connection of Nazis and Jews.

Yeah. You know, again, right? This is not, I mean, and so many of these guys making these decisions were Jewish, right? Yeah. They did not, it was not, I mean, not Breen and not the guy in the production code office, right? They were, they were, they were, production code office set up to avoid government control, government censorship of the movies, right? But really they feared the, you know, the Catholic legion of decency. That was the, that was the powerful arm that they were kowtowing to in the, in 1934 when the production code office which i guess was started in 1930 but in 1934 is when it started yeah you know it was really in reaction to fatty

arbuckle trial in 1921 or 22 or his you know um and that's a by the way a movie that really needs to be made because that's an outrage that that first trial of the century i mean you know that yeah there's no good arbuckle movie there's a bad one with james coco and raquel welch called That's an outrage, that first trial of the century. I mean, you know. Yeah. There's no good Arbuckle movie. There's a bad one with James Coco and Raquel Welch called The Wild Party. Yeah. Which is loosely based on Arbuckle. But there needs to be a real, real big studio. Yeah.

Yeah. Every year, it seems like, if there's a fat comedian who's getting a lot of attention, they'll announce like he's working on a Fatty Arbuckle movie, but it never takes place. Yeah, you'd be good. You'd be a good Fatty Arbuckle. He'd be great. He'd be great. Let's just reimagine it, right? You'd be great, Gilbert.

It's a different kind of guy. Yeah. It was nice to see Thalberg portrayed in, I mean, Mayer, of course, always comes off as a rat bastard. But Thalberg does not escape. He does not come off terribly well in the Mank movie. And, you know, I thought his greatest crime was kind of ruining the Marx Brothers. But he doesn't come off well in the film. No, he doesn't. But he doesn't come off that in the film. No, he doesn't. But he doesn't come off that badly, I don't think.

I mean, he was doing his job to me, right? You know, and... I suppose. I suppose. And that stuff, all that stuff about the 1934 gubernatorial campaign, you know, that really, you know, that wasn't, that was not part of Herman's life. That was no... No, that was an interesting choice on the part of the filmmakers.

They used that as a catalyst. Right, they used that to suggest that politics mattered to Herman, and it did a great deal. But Joe Mankiewicz actually recorded or directed, I think, or produced, I guess back then it would have been just, he produced some of those segments, but on the wrong side. Right. Right. So, you know, they that part they didn't. But yeah, yeah, yeah. It was. Yeah, no, he didn't.

No, man, you know, you want to. But Thalberg was a genius. I mean, Thalberg knew how to make movies. Can't take that away from him. Yeah. And, and, and Louis B. Mayer. And I, you know, I, I, you know, I'm, I'm friendly with Alicia Mayer, his granddaughter. And, uh, you know, I think we need, we may need some distance before she's ready to embrace the, embrace the inaccuracies after, after this movie. Yeah. Well, what was the screening like that you had at, at Hearst Castle? Oh man, it was great. So it was – oh, at Hearst Castle. The Citizen Kane screening. Yeah. Yeah, so I hosted it for the San Luis Obispo Film Festival, which I've done some stuff for most years that there has been one.

And one of their big events was screening Citizen Kane in Hearst Castle. It had never been screened in the – That's amazing. In Hearst's actual screening room we'd done it a year before a couple years before it like the the theater in the in the you know the in the gift shop shop i mean it's a real theater but i mean and the best built later not that was not part of hearst's empire um and it was cool it was just really neat to to to screen it there um And, you know, and they were given a tour and the docents, that's how you say that word, right? Yeah, docent, yeah.

Yeah, they were given a tour and they're like, really? Like, they don't get any of the things that made Hearst crazy, like they think. And like in this, you know, in the ceiling, he brought in from Italy, you know, piece by piece, and it cost $11 billion. But it was his commitment to excellence, right? And this, you know, he, you know, it was taken as they killed a white tiger in Kenya. And you're like, you know, he sounds crazy, right? Right? You guys, they think, no, no, this is awesome. But anyway, it was really, it was a lot of the Hearst, they were great to let us in there. And it was, it was cool. It was just, it was a blast to do it. Time heals all wounds, doesn't it? We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this. You know, getting back to Thalberg, it's like, I always thought as much as people consider it a classic, I always thought, to me, Night at the Opera was just the beginning of the end. And going back to Herman, I thought that their two greatest films were Horse Feathers and Duck Soup,

because those were completely insane. What do you know, Ben, about his experiences with the Marxists in those paramount days? I mean, he hated them. I mean, he loved them, but he hated them. I tried to find Groucho,

and I went through all my Groucho books trying to find one flattering thing that he had to say about Herman, and I couldn't find one. Yeah. Although Nat Perrin, a longtime Marx Brothers writer, is interviewed in the Marx Brothers scrapbook and he says, Groucho's out of his mind.

Herman Mankiewicz was a genius. Yeah. I think that that's, I mean, you know, he, Herman loved, he did like creative people and he liked, you know, that's why he brought out all these other great writers, right? I mean, Ben Hecht out there and Charlie. Yeah, sure. And so with that great telegram, which is that's true. That was in the movie.

Tell Gilbert the telegram. I don't think he knows. So he says great. So Herman comes out. He's writing title cards for silence. Right. And, you know, he'd been a theater critic and a foreign correspondent, a European. He was in Berlin for a while for, I think, the Chicago Tribune. And he'd been a theater critic. He was a Berlin for a while for, I think, the Chicago Tribune. And he'd been a theater critic.

He was a failed playwright. All of that he thought was distinguished. You could write a great American novel. If you wrote plays, that was good. Even a theater critic, it was good. But making movies, this popcorn nonsense for the masses, that's a shameful way to make a living. That was Herman's crazy way of thinking.

But he was good at it, right uh so he he's out here it's like 1928 29 and he's writing title cards for silence 27 28 and he writes ben hecht back in new york you know a great writer uh uh you know wrote the front page and he said um uh get out paraphrasing but only the first part i got that last part by heart you know get out here as soon as you can uh there's millions to be made everyone else is an idiot don't let this get around it's just so great yeah it's so great yeah um and uh i have found in my stuff i have ben heck's letter to my grandmother after Herman died in 1953. And man, Ben Hecht could write.

Like that is a letter about what a profound loss it was. I'll bet. I'll bet. It was good. It was cool to read. I just found that like a month ago. There's a great scene in Mank where you're referring to where all the writers, where you see all of these people, where Hecht and MacArthur and Ben and ben perlman and you know they all show up yeah they all show up i don't i think he only sent the that telegram to hecht to the movie the movie i don't know maybe he certainly sent it to hecht and maybe he sent it to others

too yeah and it's funny because we were talking about The Mortal Storm, which is a great movie and handling, you know, before we got into the war. But I think, if I'm not mistaken, The Three Stooges had a short, and that was, if I'm not mistaken, before we entered the war, and that was You Notch the Spy. What was it? You the spy yeah i mean you could get away with a lot more in a comedy right and i don't you know so and i wonder what how diligent the the the production code office was the censors were about like shorts, right? Were they really looking at every short, right?

I'm sure not. Well, let's credit Duck Soup, which is made in 34, a 33 released in 34 for being an anti-fascist comedy. Yeah, that's right. Because Chaplin doesn't make The Great Dictator for another six years. Yeah, not till 1940. 1940 is when the well broke. Yeah.

All they had to do was invade like six European countries. And then, you know what? You've gone too far. You know, this is too much. It's too much. We're putting our foot down. Well, you know, you're a film historian. You know about Hal Roach embracing Mussolini.

You know about all this stuff. I mean, this was good. This was going on for a long time. Yeah. You know, that's what's crazy. Appeasement. Like a long time. Yeah. You know, that's what's crazy. Appeasement. Like a liberal, liberal Hollywood, man. I mean, these guys, the money in Hollywood, the money that makes decisions.

I mean, it's like money anywhere else, right? It's corporate and it's conservative. That's what money is in this country. Almost always. And what it's always been. And it protects those interests. True then. And it's true now. True then and it's true now. I think we cut you short before.

Were you going to say something about Grandpa and the Marxists? Oh, no, I don't remember. No, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. He has that great line about the Marx Brothers about, you know, it's like trial by error with your pants on fire and you'll hate it. He was talking to S.J. Perlman, like, don't get excited about this job. It sucks.

And you'll hate them. Groucho just says, Groucho says in the Marx Brothers scrapbook that he was just bombed all the time and he would have like a three-hour lunch. Yeah, that sounds right. That sounds right. But his name is on their best pictures but his name is on their best pictures his name is on their best pictures and and they were at their whatever that process was right yeah i mean it worked like he got the best out of these enormously talented people uh he helped bring out their best you know i mean i don't think you know it was always described to me that he wrote you know and and he was really a writer he was. I mean, he's credited as a producer, but really it was, you know,

getting them to, Hey, would this be funny? Would this be funny? And then they're going to do, Groucho's going to lead them whichever way Groucho thinks to lead them. And he obviously, you know, Groucho knew what he was doing, but yeah, he, he didn't love it, but yeah, three, three hour lunches. You know, I mean, he was drunk. He was drunk most days. No question. And he was gambling and, you know. Thankfully, he didn't give me the drinking. He gave me the gambling. He did not give me the drinking. Even though you shed a tear at the beginning of the film, and that's sweet, and I certainly understand why. Did you find yourself sitting there in the screening room thinking, seeing things on the screen unfold and say, well, that couldn't have happened? Well, that that and i know it's fincher's uh artistic license i i didn't i just it didn't it

didn't affect me that way i mean i get curious like uh the character jamie sheridan i think is the actor um that character is made up and so is that the guy who commits suicide oh yes yes who directed the the the propaganda the anti-Sinclair films. Right, the anti- Upton Sinclair films. So that character was a composite and I didn't know that then. I was like, boy, here's an interesting character that I didn't know about, right? And then afterwards, I'm like, oh, wait,

that probably didn't happen. And then sure enough, it didn't. But, you know, again, there's no question that Fincher, that's Herman Mankiewicz. He gave you a sense of what it's like to be a self-loathing Hollywood writer who hates everything he's done and hates himself for doing it and hates himself for taking the money, which is why he gambles it away and never cares.

Like he did not care about money. Neither did my father. And I mean, we are the, my brother and I, Josh Mankiewicz, he's a correspondent for Dateline NBC. And when the movie did, we did so much press for this movie. Like we kept, you know, we'd be like, we are, my brother and I, Josh Mankiewicz, he's a correspondent for Dateline NBC, and when the movie, we did so much press for this movie,

like we kept, you know, we'd be like, hey man, we didn't make it. Like we had nothing to do with it. You know, but, and somebody, I think a guy from USA Today is like, what's the biggest misconception about the Mankiewicz's? And my brother answered like that. He goes, that we're rich.

And that's true. I mean, Herman is the guy who joe i think had money uh but you know whatever we didn't see it right you know and uh and tom may have had money but my dad's line i mean you know i mean he you know he was npr he worked in politics you know he wrote books public service yeah yeah public i when he hit 60, he got a job in PR, and in the last 25 years of his life, he definitely made more money than he had before, but that's when he, you know,

and then he left my mom and married somebody else. So, again, we're still waiting for that first dollar of inheritance. I'm sure it's coming at some point. But, no, that was it. I love that they didn't care. You know, it just didn't, you know, you know my dad like tried to buy a car and he was literally like well i wanted to get good gas mileage not because that saves money because i don't want to go to the gas station like that's a pain in the ass so let's delay that as much as possible so he bought my dad

bought like the first hyundai and he was a terrible driver he'd been in world war ii he'd driven a jeep and that's really where he learned to drive and he just kept running into things slowly you know and but like the bumper on that car fell off again and again and again because it was like the first Hyundai and it was made of like paper mache and it would lift fall down and he'd like kick it back up and he went okay it'll stay I don't drive And he'd be like, hmm, hmm, hmm, okay, it'll stay. That'll drive much anyway. So, yeah. I wonder if your dad had the soul of an artist.

It sounds like he did. He came from creative people and didn't care about money. You know, Mank will go down in history as an odd animal because it was written by Fincher's dad. So it's a family project and a love letter to your family. When I did the interview with Fincher, I kept trying to get that point across. Like, you know, come on, this is your dad. Like, your dad started this. Yeah.

Your dad wanted to get this movie made, would have loved to see it made, but he died before this could happen. You must be feeling nostalgic about it. And you're writing about my grandfather. And Fincher is not a sentimental guy, right? Which is part of the reason I like him, right? So you're looking for that soundbite where he's like, you know, this connection. He's like, yeah, I mean, it would be great if my dad had been around to see this.

He'd have been proud of it. But I don't know. I didn't make it for my dad. I just thought it would be a good story. Interesting. Yeah, he was not. I mean, he was super proud of his dad. He's very pleased that, you know, he gave his dad the sole writing credit on it. Even though I think Fincher, you know, reworked that screenplay a lot with Eric

Roth. But, you know, anyway, I liked that about Fincher. My dad was not sentimental either. That's why he sold the, you know, he had the for citizen kane and he sold it wow yeah wow because he eventually got it was expensive to insure so he put in a safe deposit box and then he was like if it's in a safe deposit box what's the point right well he had a point yeah and and his he somebody in the family needed money and he sold it and he gave a bunch of that money to them yeah i don't it just didn't he was bummed out he didn't get more money this he sold herman's screenplay which had herman's notes on it for kane and that got a lot of money and spielberg bought it he sold that with his brother don mackiewicz and uh um and then so then a couple years later they sold the dad had the dad

owned the the oscar and he thought this will be great. You can still sell those Oscars. It was so heavy. But we don't even know who bought it. Some yutz bought it and got a great deal. That's fascinating. And yeah. Tell us a little bit about your TCM. You have a funny story about your TCM audition.

And then we just want to ask you a couple of things about our old friend Robert. Oh, yeah, sure. And you delivered a very nice eulogy to him, which people can see online at the, I guess it was the motion picture Academy. Um, well, I barely remember that. I didn't know that was online. Oh, it is. It's very sweet. Well, I'm glad I didn't know I was going to speak until that day. Uh, you know, Robert and I had, I'll get to the, the, the audition, but Robert and I had a, you know, we didn't really see each other. I mean, he lived in New York. He'd fly to Atlanta to shoot. I lived in LA and I'd fly to Atlanta to shoot. We could never be there at the same time. We really only had access to like one studio. Then we only had, you couldn't, we, now we can have two shoots

going on at the same time, but we didn't then. So I'd see him like once a year when we had the festival for a couple of years, we had a inexplicable company retreat, which was, you know, I mean, just, I guess we did some talking but i mean there's not like it's always a strange network it's not like we don't handle change very well tcm like you know uh um so you know things take forever like if you know gilbert if you had some great idea about something to do with tcm and we loved it like by 2026 it might get on the air you know it's air we're a very deliberately paced network

start pitching now Gil there's not a lot of breaking news happening at TCM but I really wouldn't see him very much so I didn't know him very well but I had this these enormous shoes to fill even when he was still there

because there's this you know standard set he invented this job i don't have this job without robert and he didn't hire me but he's what he's he into you know i get it amc was doing it but robert made it a thing you know this idea of talking for two minutes before the movie starts uh and uh it worked um anyway and not only uh did we have him on the show and he was one of those guests you just your job is to click the microphone on yeah plug and play yeah yeah he's great good talker and also he he invited me on. I was a guest of his show where we presented. I know. I saw it when it happened.

I had to look up what movies you did. But you did The Swimmer. You did The Conversation. You did Freaks. Hey, Ben did his homework. And you did, oh, for the love of God, you did Steinbeck of Mice and Men, right? Unbelievable. Very good, Ben.

Unbelievable. You're the first guest who's ever prepared anything. That is amazing. Well, you've been, Gilbert, you've been a figure, an important peripheral figure uh in my life um uh you know i'm one of my two or three closest friends of the world and his brother were at the friars club with his dad that night your night in 2001 uh and they they talked about it before i the idea that i could ever watch it again i mean and they were like it was the funniest experience that I've ever, I'm not, I'm not exaggerating one bit.

They said it was a transcendent experience for them. Never laughed that hard, never needed to laugh that hard. Thought it was the greatest thing they had ever seen. Um, and, uh, you know, and then, and, you know, and on Howard, I just like, it was like, I was like, man, this guy is cool. Right. And then, so anyway, so it's a, it was a big thrill for is cool right and then so anyway so it's a it was a big thrill for me to be uh uh to be uh to be talking to you yeah that was right after september 11th and i did the aristocrats and yeah the place blew up it was uh yeah yeah they said they were like crying they could people it was they were my, Michael Schur and his dad, they're crying that I couldn't, couldn't believe what was happening. And what was it like three weeks after something like that?

Yeah. October 1st or something. Yeah. Yeah. It was well done. It was well done. Thank you. so robert was a um anyway it was an institution but for my audition you know like i auditioned for i know you know you've talked about this with some of your guests uh before about this auditioning process and how unbelievably horrible it is it's just and i sucked at it i mean everybody's bad but i'm really bad and i'm not an actor so this was like game show hosts a couple of little acting gigs but i didn't even really prepare enough.

And the game show host stuff, it was always like they wanted you to tell the rules of the show, and the rules of the show, they were impossible. The games would never go, you know, welcome to, you know, what's on my foot? Here's how we play. Three contestants, but you'll switch after round one. You have to decide what's on leslie's foot but then

leslie will have a chance to come back and then say what's on your foot that's worth two points are we clear so far then everybody comes together and they make a bet and you're like you got to read this and sit in an audition room no it's baffling it's always baffling there's rules that no one could possibly follow and you're like and they got cue cards which are you know i get it this is a podcast but like so you're taking your eyes from camera you're darting them just a little bit left right to catch with it and it always sucked it was terrible i must have not gotten 100 jobs easily 110 i was like oh and 110 it got so bad that i tried to unjinx it where i decided i would tell everyone every audition as if I was about to get the job right as soon as I'd go to I got an audition today here's what it is probably jinx it I like that

yeah oddly enough didn't work so um I was a finalist to host the daytime version of the weakest link um so I got I signed that contract that they make you sign first before they hire you right and they're like so in case they do hire you they don't have to pay you very much uh and uh you know and so it's like a seven year contract to host the weakest link obviously i didn't get it um but it was like four guys and they all like had i had a goatee then they all had glasses and a goatee and and uh they're all white guys they like obviously i mean it was just you go in there and you know if you're rejected it's you, right?

They're not going, they're not looking for a different type. They're looking for exactly your type, but not you. So I learned how to say, I thought I'd had my spin would be why I'm so bad at this. So I waste the whole night before learning how to, and the blind from the British show.

And I guess it was a big hit here too from ann robinson the host she would say you are the weakest link goodbye right when somebody got i remember yeah and so i learned how to say goodbye in like a dozen languages you know so i'd be like the you know you are the weakest link dos vidania you are the weakest link or even air chief right and so I get, I get my turn and it's a full 30. Most of these auditions, they're horrible. You know, it's like you come in for a minute, you read, it's a sterile white room. There's a casting director there. There's nobody else. It's empty. There's no reaction. You try to be funny. You try to be personal, right? Nothing.

They don't laugh. They mispronounce your name. You just, you feel if you don't, they mispronounce your name you just you feel if you don't it's very easy to feel worthless right and uh so uh but here this was on the set right full lights everything it's a real it's like a run through it's a and so i get there you know and the guy's got to be thrown off i insult him the way they want to insult him and i'm like you are the weakest link adios and you instantly like uh cut hold on hold on what'd you say i was like oh i said uh arrivederci because uh yeah i wanted to say it in like different languages they held for a second like yeah yeah just say goodbye that's our thing just say goodbye yeah great so stupid like it's the catchphrase you know it's like it's like you go into host jeopardy you're like what if we didn't answer as a question that's funny right um and uh so anyway

so i got the tcm audition and um it was a cool it was it we didn't it was something we didn't have. It was, the idea was that on weekends where I was the host, Robert did the week, did every night, primetime every night. And I would come Saturday and Sunday during the day. And then I'd come in and I'd talk to either a filmmaker who was still alive or a star or their kids. And it would just be like a guest programmer, essentially like what you did, but I would always be a guest. It wouldn't be a straight intro and so i went in there and to audition and they had like 10 of us and they were they'd mix and matches so you had more time and you could

improvise and if you and i watched they wanted us to talk about the magnificent seven and the seven samurai so you know whatever I watched them the night before. I mean, I'd seen them, but I watched them fresh. And then they'd be like, okay, this time, Ben, you're the host, and here's the expert. And then they'd switch it up, and then they'd have me. Then I went with every group. They kept bringing me in.

And I was like, oh, they like me. So that led to the second audition, where it's just in a hotel room. And they'd given up on that idea because it's too hard to book. And they're like, yeah, you're just going to read intros like Robert does. And it was an intro for the bishop's wife in the prompter. They'd given it to me. They're like, you can make any changes you want. Put it in your voice.

But I was terrified. I changed nothing. Right? And I read it in a teleprompter. I'd been a news anchor. I could read a teleprompter. I'm good at reading aloud. Right. And I read it in a teleprompter. I've been a news anchor. I can read a teleprompter. I'm good at reading aloud. Right. Didn't really ever strike me as a skill, but, and, and I read it and I finished and the guy goes, no, this is not your first barbecue. No, not your first rodeo. And I was like, okay, no. Yeah. I've read aloud lots of times.

I love to read. And then I go home, I don't hear anything. But the night that I was like, okay, no. Yeah, I've read aloud lots of times. I love to read. And then I go home, I don't hear anything. But the night that I went home, I said to my girlfriend at the time, we're going to turn on TCM. And if Mankiewicz had anything to do with this movie, after the second audition I did this, if Mankiewicz had anything at all to do with this movie, I'll get it. I'm not going to be superstitious if it's. After Mankiewicz said, anything at all to do with this movie, I'll get it. I'm not going to be superstitious

if it's not a Mankiewicz movie, which it probably isn't. I still might get it. But if it is a Mankiewicz, it's it. It's over and this job is mine and my 19 months of wandering unemployed through Los Angeles

will be over. Living on unemployment, right? And living on nothing at that point. Part-time gigs, best damn sports show, stuff like that. I made like $15,000 in the first two years in LA. Something like that combined. $19,000 in two years. And I come home, we turn on TV,

and it's the Barefoot Contessa. Written and directed by Joe. There you go. Yeah. I love that. He had something to do with this. He wrote written and directed by Joe. There you go. Yeah. I love that. He had something to do with this. He wrote it and he directed it. I love that story.

Then a few months later, I got the gig. It was nice. Best thing of all the dumb things I auditioned for. This was the only, this was the least dumb one. By the way, Gilbert was the original host of What's on Your Foot on the Dumont Network. Yes. What's that on your foot? I don't know if you remember that.

They fired me. They said I was too Jewish. Benny Furness was his sidekick. Out of all the people either you've met at your home or have interviewed, who are the ones that you looked at and went oh my god am i really uh sitting next to this person it happens a lot um i mean it still does i mean like mel brooks and i are uh friendly now um i mean he'd probably say like don't be an ass ass. We're friends, but it still feels weird. Right.

But I still, every time I talk to Mel, I'm like, I can't believe I'm talking to Mel Brooks. I can't believe I'm just listening to Mel Brooks tell this story. So that still happens. But like the people who got to me hard in that moment where it was this combination of nerves and I can't believe it. And they're going to expose me for the fraud that I am. Right. Which I guess is, I don't know.

I mean, I have that a lot. Um, but, um, but I think a lot of people have that feeling, um, were,

uh, uh, Max Fonsito. Wow. I just knew that Fonsito was going to see right through me. Right. And cause he's so serious and, you know, I mean, he stared down death for crying out loud. He's was going to see right through me, right? Because he's so serious and, you know,

I mean, he stared down death for crying out loud. He's not going to be this silly little DC Jew is not going to, he's not going to have what I'm, and all I want to talk about is three days of the condor, you know. Oh, I love that one. Right, you know, for that day. And so, and of course he's lovely and disarming and funny and kind and so but i was super nervous for him i was nervous for sophia loren for obvious reasons she's just the whatever the wattage that stars have, right? Where you're like, she has as much as you can have, right?

I mean, she just has it. And the green room when she was there was everybody made an excuse to be in the green room, but nobody went near her. So they all crowded in there, but then there was this constant 15 foot circle around her. She in fact went to a sort of little off area and sat down by herself.

And then I was like, I'm about to interview her. I should probably go in. But anyway, so that was, and she was all, she wrote on her hand. So great. So she'd done an interview there. Robert got sick that year. He was gonna do a long form interview with her.

And she ended up doing an interview with her son, Eduardo Ponte, who is a director also and a lovely guy. But I did this, that was for a show that we produced, but I did a long interview with her before Marriage Italian Style. And she, I guess before we went out on stage, Eduardo says, her English is not great right maybe it's because she stopped making

English movies regularly and she lives in Europe and so she doesn't use it as much but she so he tells her to say to the crowd at the Egyptian theater in LA closing night of the festival packed house obviously to see this wonderful movie it's a really great picture

it's a good movie yeah the definition of a comedy and a house obviously to see this wonderful movie it's a really great picture good movie funny it's funny i mean this is the definition of a comedy and a drama put together which is my point and he says to her call it a dramedy that's what it is call it a dramedy that's what the kids say now dramedy and she's wearing this like silk white pantsuit and i followed her out on stage and i remember thinking i don't you know like i i'm like sort of checking her out in this white pantsuit i'm like sophia laurent she's 82 what are you doing like stop stop being an ass man and uh and uh um and i do the interview and she's lovely and she's so smart and thoughtful and then and she and then she had taken a Sharpie and she had written on her hand with this beautiful, you know, I don't know anything about clothes, but that was, whatever she was wearing cost some money.

And she wrote dramedy and Sharpie on her hand and she holds it up and she says, you know, Hey, my son told me to call his day. She holds it up to the crowd. She was a dramedy and it's all sloppily written all over her hand and i was like i now so that's disarming right then as soon as she does that on i relax right that that helped and jerry lewis also was a because i knew that he you know didn't suffer fools we've all probably if you're interested many of you guys have probably seen that interview you know jerry yes Lewis can destroy an interviewer.

Jerry Lewis was kind of an ass. But you were good with him. He was great. I guess I later learned that Jerry didn't like Robert, and Robert didn't like Jerry. So I had this huge edge because I wasn't – Oh, interesting. Right.

And he loves Joe Mankiewicz. He wanted to talk about Joe Mankiewicz movies. So I did Jerry a couple times. And he was friends with Ileana Douglas, who's helped us out, who's a friend of mine, too. Oh, we love Ileana. Ileana's the best. Yeah, she's been here. Anyway, so it was great.

He was good. And he was funny. And he was charming. And he was nice to me. And he didn't expose me. And so we did a couple things together. Did one for his 90th birthday or his 89th birthday, maybe. And not long before he died.

And then, you know, I'm home and I get a call from this 702 Vegas number. And I answer the phone. I'm like, hello? Oh, no, sorry. I don't pick it up. Right. And it's, I guess, a message. And it's, you know, Ben, it's Jerry Lewis.

I enjoyed the interview so much. Give me a message. And it's, you know, Ben, it's Jerry Lewis. I enjoyed the interview so much. Give me a call. Let's chat. Let's catch up. When you get in, call me. This job is so good, right? This job is so good.

Jerry Lewis called me. He just wants to bullshit, right? So I pick up the phone. I call back. Hello? It's not. There's no wait for Mr. Lewis. Mr. Lewis answers the phone. I go, hey, is Jerry? Yeah. He goes, hey, it it's ben mankiewicz i got your message oh terrific ben terrific ben

uh thanks for calling that was it that was it that was our conversation that's great yeah i just want to call you back oh great thanks for calling ben i know uh i know in answer to Gilbert's question, doing a little research on you, a lot of research on you, that Ernest Borgnine was somebody who touched you. Yeah, he was great. Ernie was great. He wrote me a really nice note afterwards. And he was one of the first big interviews I did in the first year or two that they started. They didn't give me anything for a long time at TCM. Um, they gave me a political thing in 2004 where we interviewed

political, we interviewed two Republicans, two Democrats about movies that influenced them. And we got like a super good group of people, by the way, we got Joe Biden and, uh, uh, uh, John McCain were both great. And then Orrin H hatch from utah and then we got john edwards which was less great um as it turned out um but uh but then like lineup though it was a good lineup at the time and john edwards is a good story i won't i won't waste it but like john edwards demonstrated how much of a fraud he was in that conversation oh interesting um so but borg nine later and so i did this a couple things with him i ended up doing four or five different events with him but after the first one it really i

thought it went well and then like two days later i just get this letter and he says you know ben i've done a lot of interviews none of them go that well um it was such a pleasure talking to you and i hope we can spend time together it was a letter you know so i had that on my refrigerator and i of course have lost it but it was that gave, it gave me a significant boost of, uh, of confidence that I could, you know, that's nice that I could navigate this. He was a loved guy by all accounts. Yeah. Everybody liked everybody, but I mean, so much like even Marie Saint, she's just, you know, she's awesome. Some believe Tippi Hedren was, has been great. great and there's nobody nobody more fun than angie dickinson nobody more fun than angie dickinson i bet yeah and we we do an event in austin before we show rio bravo movie she made with john wayne for howard oxen and uh and this

great old theater in austin and the crowd's packed and she's just so good she's telling these frank sinatra stories and you know and then she pretends for a while that you know you know like she's better you asking me if i was intimate with frank sinatra because i don't know that that's appropriate and i'm like are you kidding me really right yeah and she goes i guess if you really want to know i don't think they care and i'm like oh okay i'm like i think they care and she's like do you care and they're like right you know she's just playing around. And then finally, so then they take questions. I don't like taking questions from the audience

because it can go wrong, right? And people frequently are like, you know, my grandfather's brother lived on the same street. It's a very long setup. So this guy gets up and he not only asks a question, he comes to the front of the stage and he's got asks a question, he comes to the front of the stage and he's got a, um, like a police woman, um, uh, uh, poster that he wants Angie to sign clearly. Um, and he is reminiscent of the comic book guy in the Simpsons. Right. And we get it. That's my first impression of him.

That t-shirt doesn't, it doesn't come all the way down. Um, and, uh, and he starts talking about how much he loves angie and it's he's droning it's monotonous and i'm trying to keep it lively and then it then he says you know because every night i'd turn out the lights with your poster above my head and i would think about you and right and i'm like oh no right you know i can't have this turn to classic movies man this is a you know we don't have this kind of audience, man. And so, and I'm like, okay, I got it. We got it.

I got it. I got it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And Angie, I reach forward with my hand to say stop to him. And I, it's the hand that's closer to Angie.

And she reaches out and knocks my hand down and comes out of her chair, like on a knee in front of the chair, closer to him. And she goes, go on. That's hilarious. Yeah, so good. Perfect. Perfect.

So good. Yeah. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast. But first, a word from our sponsor. What about Tony Curtis or Mickeykey rooney and please tell us there's a story there in either one of them tony curtis uh mostly what i remember from tony curtis is him telling me what i had been told he already thought but i asked him about it so that uh no uh self-respecting man uh wearing a collared shirt ever has fewer than two buttons undone. And you really should have

three, but at a minimum two. So if you only have one, you're a dork and nobody wants to sleep with you. That was essentially, if you want to have any success in life, it's a minimum of two and it should probably be three. tony i did early on too i was super nervous some event in in long island we drove out from long island to the city together um and uh he was very nostalgic about growing up in new york that's really what he wanted to talk about on the ride but um but the most all i can remember the big takeaway we screened i think some like it not was uh was him talking about the shirts um and then uh so mickey rooney so we it's like again early i think i think it was no it was the first

big interview that i had at the festival ernie ernie's thing was the next year uh on the road to the festival we did events with him all over the country so that's what but in like our first festivals 2010 and they gave me um mickey rooney it might have been 2011 they might have given me We did events with him all over the country. So that's what, but in like our first festival is 2010. And they gave me Mickey Rooney. It might've been 2011. They might've given me nothing the first year. I can't remember. So, and it's Mickey Rooney. And it's at the, again, it's also the Egyptian theater.

And we're screened in one of his Judy Garland movies, right? Babes in Arms, something like that. And so the publicist who was there says, and Mickey wants to, you know, I'm like, hey, Mickey, great to meet you. He says, hey, great to meet you. He has no idea who I am. But which is fine, you know, I'm the other guy.

I'm not Robert, right? And I always feel like early on people are like, oh, oh, so it's going to be you who interviews me. I see where I stand, right? And so I'm like, you know, it's really great to be you who interviews me i see where i stand um right and uh um and so uh i'm like you know it's really great to be here and he's like yeah i just want to make it clear he says uh i don't want to talk about judy and you're like well all right you know we're screening it's you and judy the whole the whole point i go is there some you know my first thought is oh my god are you did you guys have a fight right oh god she's been dead 40 years at this point right and uh i'm like is

everything okay is she mad at you you know um and uh and and he and i'm like i'm like well why he goes i don't want to get into all that stuff about judy all that stuff it's all anybody wants to talk about and so then i go no no all these people want to talk about this is turner classic movies all they want to talk about is how much you guys liked each other and how much fun you guys had making this movie that's really all i'm gonna ask you about like that's it right um and he's like oh really i mean yeah yeah this is all like like you love judy right he's like yeah i go that's what I want to talk about. How much you love Judy. I don't care about any of the things that happened at the end of her life.

That's not. Good for you. Not what this is about, right? And he's like, okay. So he's willing to do it. And he does talk about it a little bit. But Mickey liked to tell stories that were on their face untrue. Like they just couldn't go.

Like they, you know, he's like, I was years old in kansas city and i wanted to leave home and i you know my mom and i were stuck and we had no money and we were trying to do these you know we do these shows and we father wasn't there whatever his story was i can't quite remember right uh joe yule right and he says i uh and every night my mom and i'd be sitting there and he's three in his version of the story, you know, and we'd hear the train on the outskirts of town. And we were just going somewhere. And I'd say, Ma, where's that train going? And she'd say, it's going to our future.

One day we'll be on that train. And I'd say, really, Ma? And you're like, all right, this did not happen. It's not a conversation that a child has with his mom right but i'm but i'm like all right so i want to get him and then he was you know he was very into uh veterans and supporting veterans you know he he really uh argued his way into service in world war ii uh because he kept getting rejected on legitimate health grounds. And the studio tried to keep him out

because he was this gigantic moneymaker for MGM, and they had no interest in him going overseas. And he kept reapplying. And then eventually they worked out some deal, and he served, but he didn't fight. And I got the feeling that he had shame. Oh, interesting. I don't know this to be true,

but I know he was incredibly, and he did all he could. I mean, he could hold his head up high. He fought to get in. And so he supported these veterans groups, which was great. But he also got very religious, which is also great,

except when you start to proselytize in front of an audience that wants to hear a Judy Garland story. Yeah. And it feels like, and my job, Gilbert, as you know, if you're with somebody, you want them to engage the crowd. You want the people who've come in L.A., who've driven across town, took three and a half hours to see whoever you got, right. To see Mickey Rooney, feel like they got something, right. They learned something that made them feel connected to him. And this was not it. And so he starts talking about Jesus and he stands up and, and I'm like, and I have no experience with this in front of a crowd like this. And'm like right you know like and um and at one point so it's in my head he'd been talking for 60 seconds he'd probably been talking for four

right but he's standing up and he was 90 then and you could tell the audience like they need me to help him right we don't want to the my job is to have my job is to get him to standing ovations. Right. And it's pretty easy to get Mickey Rooney to standing ovations. I'm not sure anybody is more popular with TCM audiences than Mickey Rooney when he walked out on stage. Borg done up there. Right. So. So then he looks at me and I'm like, try and think it's time to come on. Be smart. Think of something. And he God bless him. He says to me, you know, Jesus, don't you Ben? Right.

And I said, yeah, no, no, no, no. We, uh, we, uh, we used to play against each other in the Jewish community center basketball leagues. Right. Right. And he looks at me and the crowd laughs a little bit and he looks at me and he goes, I knew you were okay. And he slaps my leg and he goes, I'm sorry, I'm totally monopolizing your interview. What do you want to talk? Just like that. Nice. He sat down and they talked to his stories and I was like, okay, all right.

All right. Okay. This was good. Thank God. Thank God. Because it really felt like I was going to, you know, I would rather them get mad at me. I had a very famous director shut down on me on stage but that to me is is that was easier because then I know I knew I

just screwed up I asked a dumb question but but I didn't want to I was worried Mickey was going to embarrass himself right yeah that they would but he came through and then he came on the cruise later and he was great he was on the cruise later and he was great he was just he was great and he was fun and he was feisty and you know uh and they just even guys even if they're a little irritable beforehand man when they get on the stage we've had some people who've been a little challenging not many very few overwhelmingly great but a couple difficult before we start man and then those lights come on and they and they act like stars and you dodged a bullet with the mick totally dodged a bullet with the mick it could have gone

it could have gone a number of uh could have gone a number of bad directions yeah let me ask you one question from a listener ben as we as we wind down our friend eric ryan what does ben think the future holds for in-person communal movie theater experiences? Remember them? Yeah. I mean, you don't want, I mean, I don't know. I, God bless him. Thank you for asking. I don't know, man. I don't know anything. Like I'm not, I don't, I can't predict. I think that there will be a over, some theaters are going to close down, I guess. Right. But I mean, I think we're going to crave the things that we haven't had. That's what we crave in life. Right. To see a comedy with an audience.

What do you covet, right? When Silence of the Lambs said, you know, you covet what you can see, right? And in that sense, I feel like we can see what we had, right? And so we just want these things. So I don't know. I think we're going to go back to theaters. I hope so. Maybe they won't be as full. Maybe there'll be a little more room for a bit, but you know, I mean,

once we get to, you know, we start hitting 40, 50% vaccinated and we get within sight of what we're imagining herd immunity to be, I think people are going to, I mean, you know, I go to, I love to gamble. I'm, I'm pretty confident that Vegas is going to come back. And if, you know, and so I think movie theaters will come back. I think that we're going to have to reimagine the way we see movies, obviously, you know, and it's going to be much more commonplace to see a big movie, uh, at home, but, uh, but theaters aren't going to, aren't going to, aren't going to go away. If they're going to make $300 million Marvel movies, they're going to have theaters to put them in. And those theaters are going to want to show something when those movies aren't available. That's a good point. That's a good

point. What is the best part of the job? What's the best part of the gig? And I heard you say, too, I found this interesting, that when you're on a cruise, when you're at a festival, there's another member of the Madcox family. it's okay guys he's so dumb he's so dumb i have one great dog and one other dog. Oh, I saw that in your TCM bio. It's totally true. I've heard that at the festivals and on the cruises that you're so busy, you know, introducing things and schmoozing and doing all the things you have to do that you hardly get to see the films. Oh, I've seen Airplane. I saw Airplane.

That's the one movie I've seen. And I saw one nitrate noir. I don't even remember which one it was, which was awesome. Because it was at midnight, right? But the, other than that, the only movie I've seen start to finish, I went to see Citizen Kane, the like early year, because I had time and I wasn't doing as much the first couple of years of the festival.

And I swear to God, I mean, I slept mean i slept hard like i mean i hadn't been i'd been off it had been tense i'd been there and then i just whatever i've seen it i know how it works the theater's dark i was out must have slept 40 straight minutes longest i've ever slept in a movie um and then i saw airplane its entirety we screened it late at night at the chinese theater in la um and we you know we we had Robert Hayes and we had one of the Zucker brothers and Jim Abrams. Um, and it was great. And the theater's packed midnight screening of airplane on, I guess, probably the 30th anniversary or something, 40th anniversary. And it was hilarious. It was such, so great. That was fun. Um, and again, again, the importance of

seeing a comedy with an audience. Oh yeah. Comedy with Comedy audience. And it was just so, I mean, it's still, it was funny then it's funny now. And, uh, uh, that was great, but I think that's it. And I don't think I've, I'm not sure I've ever seen a movie on the cruise, you know? Um, but it's great. I love, you know, I mean, I like the, I like schmoozing with the audience. I mean, they, you know, they, they're, they love movies, man. I mean, it's like, you know, it's just, it's an audience of people who love classic movies. I mean, they, you know, they love movies, man. I mean, it's like, you know, it's just, it's an audience of people who love classic movies. I mean, you know,

it's like guys like you guys. Well, you know, that's us. We shared in your intro that you and Gilbert share a love of Ace in the Hole, but you seem to be fond of a lot of movies about journalism. I love Ace in the Crowd. Yeah. And, I love a good one. Like Face in the Crowd and... Yeah, and, you know, and... And Chayefsky's Network and... All the President's Men and Network. All the President's Men is great. And Spotlight, you know. Yeah, I mean, good journalism.

Deadline USA with... Oh, it's a good one. Yeah, I mean, that's as good as it gets. Yeah, I mean, you know, journalism at its best, man. It's like, you know, we were talking about corporate power. That's what we're supposed to do. That's why corporate ownership of all media is dangerous, right? Because the idea is that they're not supposed to just stand up to politicians.

They're supposed to stand up to where the power is, and the power is always with the money. And so anyway, that's the speech ned baity gives in network the best part of network is the speech ned baity gives where he's like what are you talking about like this is you know essentially we're run by an oil company um uh something like that anyway so uh so i love good journalism movies but ace in the hall is good for a you know oh there's reminds me just tell a quick Kirk Douglas story, so, because that's, it happened at the festival, post-Kirk Douglas's stroke, many years after, so it was like, I don't know, 2012 or something like that,

he's at the festival, he, you know, he's not going to be on stage long, you can ask him like two questions, and he's going to get thunderous applause, and, and get out, and, you know, he's, his mind worked great, he just couldn't get the words out perfectly. So Kirk Douglas up there. But before I introduce him and bring him out, I'm backstage in this makeshift green room at the Chinese Theater. And with his finger, he gets me, come over here.

I sit down close to him and he goes, you're related to Joe Mankiewicz, right? I'm like, yeah. He's my uncle, my great uncle. He goes, I made a movie with your uncle. you're related to joe mike it's right i'm like yeah he's my he's my uncle my great uncle he goes i made a made a movie with your uncle and he made a letter to three wives and i think that's what he's talking about right good one i know letter to three wives and joe wanted the best directing and best writing for that um and uh i mean and and i go yeah yeah letter to three wives he goes no

i made a western oh there was a crooked man. Right. And I'm like, oh, yeah, right. Then you got it exactly. There was a crooked man. And he goes, yeah. And I go, yeah. And he goes, you know what I learned from that movie?

I'm coming in really close to make sure I can hear him. I go, no, what? He goes, I learned your uncle shouldn't make a Western. I like that picture. I like Kirk Douglas' story about it. That's a good story. Yeah, it was good. That's a good story.

Why do you love Ace in the Hole so much? Probably the same reasons Gilbert does. It's about you know, I mean, it's about avarice, greed, but not money, right? It's about this thirst for success and fame and getting back on top and being blinded by it to the extent that you're willing to risk somebody else's life to get there, to get so cynical about what's important that you have no idea, you've lost touch with reality. And also, I mean, I love journalists and I love journalists doing their job, but also what an unethical journalist can do, how that story can be manipulated to suit them. And it's just, you know, I mean, it's a great noir and a great journalism movie.

And, you know, And that Douglas intensity, which could be a little too much in some roles. I mean, I'm a big Kirk Douglas fan, and when he's at his best, he's great. But it works there because this guy is just living, breathing ambition and cynicism. So the Douglas sort of over-the-topness works well. He is perfect perfect he's perfect for that part yeah and the movie's not outdated at all oh no it i mean it's i mean it you you could update it and and uh you know uh uh you know put some uh put twitter or instagram in it and change sort of the nature of the story and have more tv cameras there would still work

everything about that movie could work they tried to do a remake a few years ago with, remember this, Gilbert, with Dustin Hoffman and Travolta called Mad City? Ah, yes. It's a Costa Gavris movie, Ben. It's a little bit of a remake of Ace in the Hole. I don't know it. Yeah. I mean, you know, you

remake Billy Wilder at your own peril, right? But it's, you know, it's... You know what Billy Wilder movie I just saw, right? But it's, you know. You know what Billy Wilder movie I just saw that I liked that I didn't, I mean, I guess I don't even, maybe I hadn't seen it. But I mean, his version of the front page with the Matthau. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, it's totally fun. Like, I feel like I'm disparaging about it on the air.

Like, I have to stop doing that. It was excellent. It's, you know, they're great together. They're great. And it's good enough. they're they're they're great together they're great and it's it's good enough it's totally good enough because your friend peter bogdanovich is such a good mimic we had him on here and he did his walter brennan for us and his hitch and his jimmy stewart and because you're such a gilbert fan we're going to favor you gilbert you should favor ben with a little bit of your Peter Lorre. Because Ben is very fond of Casablanca. Who isn't?

No, it's you who ruined it. You and your stupid attempt to buy it. Kevin found out how valuable it was. No wonder we had such an easy time getting it. You idiot! You bloated fathead!

Oh, it's so good. That's so good. Oh, man. Thank you. Thank you for... Oh, man. That is... He does Cindy Green Street, too.

We got a night of them. I just wrote it. I just wrote, reworked those scripts. We have a night of Laurie and Greenstreet, four movies or five movies coming up. It has to be in March, at the end of March. Wow. There was one, I think, the ticket that had to do with them

sharing a lottery ticket. Yes, that's right, with the girl. And there was Mask of Demetrius. We have that. We have the Mask of Demetrius. That's one of them. They did nine. They did eight in five years, I think, total.

And then a ninth, if you count Hollywood Canteen, where they sort of spoof each other. And I just saw Laurie, though, again, a movie I hadn't seen in forever, in Arsenic and Old Lace, where he's so, you know, with Cary Grant, where he's also just, I mean, of course, he's always sensational.

And Eddie Muller, the noir guy, and I just did a thing on MacGuffins, and we included the Maltese Falcon. Oh, when is that going to be on? It's already been on once. Oh, okay. Yeah, for you guys, It's already been on once. Oh, okay. Yeah, for you guys, I think it was in March. So, yeah.

Okay. It'll be this month. And with Maltese Falcon, it's... Hmm. You are a character, sir. I enjoy talking to a man who enjoys to talk. It's so good. He was in his first movie. who enjoys the talk. It's so good.

He was in his first movie. His first movie that is so for Green Street. What I'd forgotten in Maltese Falcon is when Laurie does the I can't do them like, you know, that is twice that you've hit, you know, like you've dared to slap me, you know, and like just twice that you've put hands on me. He says, it's twice you've put, you know, like you've dared to slap me, you know. And like,

twice that you've put hands on me. He says, twice you've put hands on me. And I want Bogie to be like, you drew a gun on me both times. Once in my office, once in my house. And you're getting mad at me for putting hands

on you? Like, yeah, hey. Yeah, yeah, that's right. You took a gun out. And by the way, I took it from you both times. And then, you know, when you get slapped, you'll take it. You'll like it. I love that you guys never repeat a movie intro on the network. Yeah, that's right.

No, that's a big part of it. Big part of what we do. That's right. And I learned something. As much as I know about these movies, like hearing you talk about Casablanca, and you had that wonderful piece of history about how the studio reader read the script on December 8th, 1941. Stephen Carnot. I've sold that story, so I think that's his name. So Gilbert, this guy, so we get attacked by the Japanese on December 7th, 1941. But this guy, he goes into work on Monday, December 8th.

Like, I don't know, somehow it just feels like, I don't know, I'd take the day off. But he goes in, and that's when he reads Casablanca. And so, I don't know, who knows? If he'd read it on Friday, would it have made an impression on him? Right? But now here we are. War is imminent. You know, Roosevelt later that day,

I think, delivers his we have nothing but fear, but fear itself speech. No, that was, sorry, that's the depression speech, which is, he gives his, the date that we'll live in. Date you live for me, yeah.

And, you know, and then we declare war on Japan and then inexplicably the Nazis declare war on us a few days later, saving us the trouble. And, you know, but like if he'd read that on Thursday, it was on it was in his desk. It was at his desk already. Then maybe he doesn't have the same reaction to it.

It probably would have found its way to Hal Wallace anyway, because he knew that it was out there. But nonetheless, I think it's a it's a it's worth it's worth mentioning always that. Yeah. This guy read it on December 8th. Fascinating history I had not heard before. And we want to listen. As we wind down, Ben, we want to tell our listeners that they can listen to The Plot Thickens, which is on the TCM website. And it's so good. And it's nice to see you and Peter bonding through the process, too.

Yeah, I love talking to Peter, man. I mean, this guy, you you know he's a link to classic movies you know yeah he didn't make him but he interviewed all of those guys right i mean you know and there's bonus content too after this there's a him interviewing hawks and hitchcock it's great orson welles lived with him for a year and a half for crying yeah he told us yeah i'm sure yeah yeah it's it It's a very, very good podcast. Well, we have season two's coming. Season two's coming.

It's going to be good. You really get a sense of how important Pauly Platt was in his life. I mean, it's just so sentimental. I mean, and the two of them, you know, throwing all their belongings in that yellow car and driving cross country. And Jerry Lewis takes pity on them because he took their, their car is so ugly. He lends them a car. He gives them one of his Mustangs.

I don't need it anymore. I got Bobby. I'll be quiet. Yeah. Lewis is like, I can't keep having you over to the house. If you're going to bring this car, take one of mine for the love of God.

I'm Jerry Lewis. Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a very, very good show. And we look forward to, to seeing more of it.

I want to thank some people, too. Our mutual friend Mario Cantone, who introduced us to you. Oh, yes. Also one of the funniest men in the world. Yeah, Mario is the best, and Mario is relentless. Nobody loves old movies more than he does. No, he's the best. He's the best.

And, again, it's one of those great things where you just get so far. I wouldn't have met Mario Cantone without this job, right? Yeah. So there's another perk. You wouldn't have met Ernest Borgnine. I wouldn't have met Ernest Borgnine? Yeah. I mean, actually, when you think about it, Mario's pretty low on that list.

We're going to tell him that. Yeah. I mean, actually, when you think about it, Mario's pretty low on that list. We're going to tell him that. I mean, I got to meet Faye Dunaway in this job. Gives a crap about Mario Cantone. I mean, he wasn't even a regular until like season six of Sex and the City. We love him. And I have to say, too, on the Bogdanovich podcast, you know, going back and watching, I went back and watched Last Picture Show and Paper Moon. Boy, they're perfect films. Yeah, they are.

Just want to give Peter his due. Yeah, and that first movie of his, Targets, everybody should see Targets, you know, for a first-time filmmaker, not a lot of money, working for Roger Corman. Absolutely. It's good. It's really, it's good. We want to thank you for entertaining us and taking the time to do this. I don't know about being entertained, but thank you. It is legitimately

an honor, so thanks, guys. Gil, what do you think? Oh. The man shares your appreciation of Jerry Lewis. Yes. We can add a guy to the list of people Jerry Lewis was nice to. Yes. Of course, I always

say he's one of those people I've spoken to a few times, and I can use the classic line, well, he was always nice to me. And now you can say it, Ben. That's right. It was always

very, very, very kind to me. And I had the shortest complete phone call with Jerry Lewis than I had with anybody else. Not a beginning. It had a middle. It had an end. It's a great story. That was it. Yeah.

I also want to thank our friend Christopher Bly, who generously helped with research with Ben. So everybody watch the plot thickens. There's another season coming. Are you still doing Hollywood hideaways with, with Mueller? Yeah, we'll do a couple. We,

you know, when lockdown ends, we just got to get, yeah. When the lockdown ends. Yeah. We got to, you know,

that's the kind of thing where they're like, Hey, we got $46,000 left in the budget. Can you guys go shoot for a day? Find something interesting. That's what we got. That's how we gotta that's how we got that first couple ones done those are fun yeah they were great i love doing them i mean

eddie's become a great friend and uh and he's so smart uh so uh you know i love talking to eddie and i love uh i love making fun of noir alley when i toss to it saturday nights oh i generally write something that mocks eddie and the movie when i say coming up next noir alley and like some of them are like i think, really good lines, right? Some of them, you know, whatever. They're like dad jokes. But some of them are solid. And no one ever, ever, ever says anything.

Oh, well, I did one where I said, I don't know, we'd finished some movie. And then, you know, I suggested which led to a sequel. And I go, you know, and that's and it was, you know i suggested which led to a sequel and i go uh you know and that's and it was you know some nonsense it'd be like a you know it was like a uh seems like it was like foul play which would lead to seems like old times and i'd be like you know they made seems like old times and that's the movie we have coming up next tonight on noir alley with eddie muller and then i'm like i'm just kidding that's not what eddie has on noir alley I have no idea what he has. I've never seen Noir Alley and I never will. And that one gets like,

hey man, the fight you guys are having needs to happen off air. People on Twitter, I must have gotten 50 things on Twitter about that it was rude of me to expose my off air hatred of Eddie on air.

So each person, I'm like, hey, Matt, kidding. It's a joke. I love Eddie. I love Norma. You guys are a nice team. What's the dog's name, by the way? The one that's in my feed? He knows he's being spoken about.

It's Bob the Girl. Bob the Girl. All right, we'll say goodbye to Ben and to Bob the Girl. And last thing is I share your love for Soderbergh's Out of Sight. Oh, the best. So good. Terrific movie. So good.

He's such a good filmmaker. I love him. Terrific, terrific movie. He loves TCM. Steven Soderbergh loves old movies. He should. I'm Gilbert Gottfried. This has been Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast

with my co-host Frank Santopadre. And today we've been talking to another great Mankiewicz, Ben Mankiewicz. I'll take it. I'll take it. Nice. Thank you. Ben, thanks so much for your time and for the laughs. Thanks, guys. You were great. I appreciate it. Thank you. These are the laws of my administration.

No one's allowed to smoke or tell a dirty joke. And whistling is forbidden. We're not allowed to tell a dirty joke. Live, live, drink, or gun. If chewing gum is chewed, the chewer is pursued. And in the hoose cow hidden, every choose to chew will be pursued. If any form of pleasure is pursued, and in the who's go hidden, every truth will be pursued. If any form of pleasure is exhibited, report to me and it will be prohibited. I'll put my foot down, so shall it be. This is the land of the free. The last man nearly ruined this place, he didn't know

what to do with it. If you think this country's bad off now, just wait till I get through with it. He didn't know what to do with it If you think this country's bad off Now just wait till I get through with it The country's taxes must be fixed And I know what to do with it If you think you're paying too much Now just wait till I get through with it I will not stand for anything that's crooked or unfair

I'm strictly on the up and up, so everyone beware. If anyone's caught taking graft and I don't get my share, we stand them up against the wall and pop goes the weasel. So everyone beware who's crooked or unfair. No one can take a piece of graft unless it gets his share. If any man should come between a husband and his bride, we find out which one she prefers by letting her decide. If she prefers the other man, the husband steps outside.

We stand him up against the wall and pop goes the weasel. The husband steps outside. We leave the shoes aside. We stand him up against the wall, we take him for a run. You have an appointment at the House of Representatives. Good heavens, you can't go with your trousers up. I can't, eh? Well, they'll never catch me any other way.