Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Brian and Eddie Holland

Episode Date: August 24, 2020

Gilbert and Frank welcome Rock & Roll Hall of Fame songwriters Brian and Eddie Holland for an in-depth look at the history of Motown, their work with The Supremes, Marvin Gaye and The Four Tops and the creative process behind their dozens of hits, including "Heat Wave," "Baby Love," "I Hear a Symphony," and "You Keep Me Hangin' On." Also, Martha Reeves makes her move, Berry Gordy builds an empire, The Beatles cover "Please Mr. Postman" and Eddie co-writes "Ain't Too Proud to Beg." PLUS: The Funk Brothers! The genius of Lamont Dozier! Motown goes psychedelic! Brian praises Richard Pryor! And Eddie remembers the legendary Jackie Wilson! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Ontario only. Gambling problem? Call Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. When your celebration of life is prepaid in advance,

it becomes a gift from you to your family later because no one should have to plan for a loss while they're experiencing one. Paying in advance protects your loved ones and gives you the peace of mind you

deserve. Let us help you plan every detail with professionalism and compassion. We are your local Dignity Memorial provider. Find us at DignityMemorial.ca. Hi, I'm Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. We're thrilled to welcome this week's guest to the show. In fact, I don't know if I've ever seen Frank more excited. They're musicians, arrangers, Grammy-winning record producers, and two of the most successful, admired, and influential songwriters of the 20th century or any century. Along with fellow producing and songwriting legend Lamont Dozier, they're responsible for some of the most beloved songs of our lifetimes, including

Where Did Our Love Go, Baby Love, Heat Wave, How Sweet It Is To Be Loved By You, How sweet it is to be loved by you. Come see about me. Stop in the name of love. I hear a symphony. You can't hurry love. Baby, I need your loving. Bernadette, reach out. I'll be there. You keep me hanging on reflections. Can I get a witness?

A band of gold. And the hits just keep coming, including 10 number one hits for the Supremes alone. In addition to penning, unforgettable tunes for Motown icons, the Supremes, the Four Tops, the Temptations, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Marvin Gaye and Martha Reeves and the Vandellas. Their songs have been recorded or covered by a who's who of popular music, including James Taylor, Bill Collins, The Who, Michael Jackson, Barbara Streisand, Rod Stewart, Linda Ronstadt, Stevie Wonder,

the Rolling Stones, and even the Beatles. They're members of the Songwriters Hall of Fame. They were awarded stars on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and they were quite deservedly inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Their terrific, best-selling new memoir is called Come and Get These Memories, and it will soon be released as an audiobook. Please welcome to the show two artists who helped shape the soundtrack of our lives, and two talents sometimes referred to as America's Lennon and McCartney,

Brian Holland and Eddie Holland. Wow, Frank. Frank, how you doing? Good job, man. That's not Frank, that's Gilbert. No, that's Frank talking. No, Gilbert was doing all that talking That was Gilbert right Gilbert I don't know who you're talking about I mean you were giving us

So many accolades I started to stand up and clap for the people I said oh he's talking about us Gentlemen welcome Now that's Gilbert there Oh, he's talking about us. Gentlemen, welcome. Now, that's Gilbert there. That's Gilbert, and Frank's over here. Frank is in the blue shirt.

The what? Frank's blue shirt. That's Frank there in the blue shirt. Yeah, but you can thank me for the intro too, Eddie. Oh, okay. That's guilty. No. I'm going to tell you.

You know already. I'm going to tell you. I'm telling you. Guys, thanks for taking the time to do this today. Okay. Now, you Gilbert. Yes. I am.

In a blue shirt. Okay, good. In a blue shirt. In a white shirt with the squares. Okay. But we often portray each other but the way you were talking and carrying on I thought we was going to run for president you got my vote Brian

you got my vote maybe we can hold cards of our names. I know your name. First of all, it's right there. I know his name. I got your name. Or name test. Gilbert, I got you in the blue shirt.

And what does that shirt say? What does that shirt say? What does that shirt say? He wants to know what your shirt says. Oh, this is some comedy club. Oh, good. Which one? I get all my shirts for free. You know, Brian Gilbert loves a free shirt.

I understand. If you have any shirts, say it. Well, unfortunately, at this point, we don't have one. I don't think that, you know. Tell us about music becoming a part of your lives in the first place, because it was a number of factors. It was the church choir. It was the piano that Brian snuck into the church to play.

It was your Uncle James record collection. I mean, you guys always had music in your lives growing up. Always, always, always. I couldn't think of a day that has gone by that I didn't have music in my life. But, you know, growing up in Detroit, it was a big music city anyway, you know, because, like I said, as kids coming up,

Brian and I, you know, teenagers, because like I said, as kids coming up, Brian and I, you know, teenagers, our pastime was really having our little vocal groups together, you know, standing on the corners making harmony, often waking up the neighbors, sometimes having the neighbors to get out of their beds, chase you and chase you down the street because you were making so much noise and they had to get up especially the ones that had to get up and go to factory worker the factory workers up like

boards they would jump up and man we would be flying down the street and say edward bryant you guys can sing but don't sing so loud i don't know how he heard us all the way down the street so we must really been singing loud. But that was a big part of our lives, you know, and going to the theaters and they had a lot of shows, you know, where you had the talent shows, you know.

I didn't participate in any of those, but I would go and watch them. As a matter of fact, that's when I first saw I Continue to Turn is one of those shows, you know. Oh, at the movie theaters in Detroit. Yeah, they used to have them all over the theater, I mean, all over the city. Little Willie John you saw too.

Oh, man, first of all, Little Willie John, I went to school with him. He was tough. He was kind of tough. Always could sing. I mean, this guy was so, he was such a great. Always could sing. I mean, this guy was so, he was such a great singer, you know. And every time he would see me, if I would see him in a club somewhere where he was performing, he was always going to say, hey, homeboy. Yeah, that's right.

We've had a lot of singer-songwriters on this show. Yeah, we had Paul Williams and Jimmy Webb. Oh, Jimmy Webb, okay. Yeah. And all of them, when we asked the question, what got you into the music business, they all seemed to say to pick up women. Pick up women.

Or that at least girls were part of the incentive That was not my incentive To be honest with you Although, you gotta be honest It came later Oh yeah I just enjoyed the singing I just enjoyed the group

I didn't really like singing professionally. That was never my intention. But I enjoyed it. It was a great part of my life and the entertainment. You know, we grew up with a grandmother that was a very, very disciplinarian. And she would, you know, first of all, we had to go to church at least five or six times a week, you know. First of all, we had to go to church at least five or six times a week, you know. And, you know, for a breather and a relaxer, we would love to go to the shows or in here,

have our groups and perform and everything. And I was surprised, as the way my grandmother had us singing in church. Or, you know, I was surprised she would allow us to sing the so-called secular music. But for some reason, she was very considerate. I guess she'd say, oh, they're just teenage boys. You know, let them have some fun. As long as we, as much as we love also going to the theater, movie theater, she would never let us go on a Sunday.

Couldn't go on Sunday, so don't waste your time. I see. But other than that, she was tough disciplinarian. Well, we're going to talk about your upbringing a little bit more, but we'll address Gilbert's question on the subject of women. Gilbert's question on the subject of women, because there's a fascinating thing in the book, Eddie, about all these women that heard your song lyrics and started turning up in droves at Motown headquarters to meet you, because they thought you understood them. Oh, that happened. Yeah, I don't know about droves, but it happened. I was surprised. I mean, you know, but I was surprised. I was surprised. You know, there were basically a few people come from Cleveland,

a few from Chicago, and that's what they were saying. They say, well, I said, why? I want to see you. I want to meet you. I want to talk to you. I said, well, why? They said, because I listen to your records. You understand me. You understand me. I mean, well, why? You know, they said, because I listen to your records. You understand me.

You understand me. I mean, I was shocked. I didn't understand. I mean, I understood what I was writing about because that was the way I was able to write because I understood how, you know, especially those teenage girls and how they were. You know, I had most of the attention when I was in intermediate school. You know, I had a lot of attention there, more than I really truly wanted, you know, because sometimes they would, in between their classes, they would come to my homeroom, and

they'd be sitting by the window, I mean, you know, the homeroom, and I asked the teacher because she moved me, and a couple times, you know, it happened. But, and, you know, they would follow me home home and they would, you know, I had a lot a lot of attention but then as I got a little older I would talk to them and find out because they became very

interesting to me I noticed, yeah, I thought that the females I learned very very early that they were not as plain or as simple-minded, so to speak, as the guys would think they are. I learned very, very early. So I would spend a lot of time asking them questions. What do you do this for and how do you do this?

What do you like about this and what do you do this? What do you like about this? What do you like about... Just to get them to talking. I learned a lot, especially by the time I was in my early 20s. They told me... They really educated me to the ways of females,

which was very tricky. It was tough getting that... It was very helpful in writing. Yes, yes, it was. Yes, I was going to say. Yes, because you wrote from women's point of view. I mean, it sounded like you could be hanging on. That's exactly what I did, you know.

But it was, you know, very interesting, you know. And I'm going to tell you something. It wasn't that easy to get that kind of information from females. It wasn't that easy. Because they would look at me. We still don't have it anymore. It was a female club, and they didn't want to talk about it. And then I would sort of press them in such a way.

And then they say, well, you know, they would go into the crying act and how females would cry. And they say, you know, men, they have a tendency, you know, to think, you know, that we all, we succumb to them because we're shedding tears. They said, but look, this is a game. I said, game? They said, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We play the game. And I said, well, they said, well, and they started talking. I said, look, he said, let me show you how it works. And they were talking to me and explaining, and the tears were just flowing. See how easy it is. So I learned a lot listening to him. I was a big listener.

Then it got to the point that they would spend a lot of time calling and talking to me because they, too, thought I understood them. That I had insight about how they functioned. And they were, you know, so it was interesting. That's part of his dopamine in his life, his endorphins, you know what I mean? Oh, I see. And it's funny that you went on to work for Motown and Motown was known for, you know, respecting women workers.

Well, and that Barry hired a lot of women in influential positions. Well, first of all, Barry Gordy grew up with women dominating his life, with Evelyn and Mitchell and that. His mother was a very strong woman, okay? His sisters grew up being influenced by their mother and they became very strong women. And very dominating, as Brian said. So he learned to respect

the women. As a matter of fact, I think several of them were really older than him. But that is the first time I noticed a man being as respectful towards women. That was a good influence on me.

Wasn't that different for a record company, though, at that time, to have women making influential decisions? Well, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It was. To his credit. It was good. And then he used Billie Jean. Well, first of all, he used his sisters, Lucy Wakefield and his older sister, Esther Edwards, were very influential to him. They were smart.

And he respected that. Because like he always said, they were smarter than him. He was always smarter than me. And one thing, Frank and I were fascinated by how Gordy came up with the idea for Motown. You know that story. You mean applying the assembly line mentality from his work in the auto industry? It's fascinating. It is, it is, it is.

But when I met Barry Gordy, you know, he wasn't really thinking in terms of a record company. He was a record producer, producing for Jackie Wilson. And he was a writer. You met him as a teenager. Absolutely, for Jackie Wilson. You met him as a teenager. Absolutely, for Jackie Wilson. And so he sort of I would say became involved in it

because Barry had a tough time when he started off. Let me tell you something. I would go to Barry to New York and he would be in the lobby in this company called Gone and In. I don't know if you remember that company. You know, and he was

pushing his record, you know, and he would get a lot of rejections, you know. He would always be trying to, you know, he'd go and do his masters and records and whatever, and he would get a lot of rejection, you know, and then he noticed that his royalties was not that great.

I don't think he was getting hardly paid at all from Nat Tarnable, Jackie Wilson's, you know. And so he told me, he said, you know, Smokey said, I should start my own record company. And I said, oh, he did? He said, yeah. He said, I'm kind of thinking about that. So he mulled that over for several years before he really, really got involved in it.

I was going to say, there's a great documentary that Showtime put out last year for the 60th anniversary of Motown called Hitsville, The Making of Motown. And people that are interested can get Barry's story about how he worked in the auto plant, how he started a record store, all the steps and all the various hurdles that he overcame to start and launch Motown. It's absolutely fascinating. Because he said in it that working on the assembly line where each person had their job of slapping something new on the car is where he got the idea of like how about music acts right and the idea for quality control which became a which became a part of motel very important yeah very important yeah i want to ask about a turning point too from the book brian i want to talk you talk in the book about hearing your song on the radio for the first time. I think it was Please Mr. Postman. Yeah. Matter of fact, it came on CKLW at that

time. And it was in competition with a record called Sitting Here Yaya Waiting For My Lala. If you remember that record? record yes I remember that one sure Lee Dorsey I think that was yes Lee Dorsey and and it was a competition

and one week Postman would go to number one fall down and go sitting here yaya would go to number one fall down

and Postman went back to number one I mean that was one of the greatest feelings and then Postman became such a huge record I mean, that was one of the greatest feelings. And then Postman became such a huge record. I mean, so many people did that song. Oh, yeah. Including the Beatles. Oh, I made more money with the Beatles than I did with anybody.

Eddie, wasn't Please Mr. Postman a turning point for you, too, because it was one of the songs where you looked at it. You looked at Brian's royalties. Right. Let me say this. Indirectly, it was Please, Mr. Postman. Directly, it was the check that my brother received. You know, we were kids, man. You know what I mean? And the fact of the matter is, we say, wow.

You know what I mean? And the fact of the matter is, we say, wow. I looked at it because I know when I was recording, I had this hit. You know, I think it was top 20 or something like that, Jamie. And, you know, I went around, did Dick Clark shows and hollows and theaters or whatever. And then I, you know, I look at my royalty statement, you know. Actually, I's why I put it all in the book, because I wanted people to know. And then I noticed, I'm looking for this royalty.

It was, I owe. Right now, you owe. I don't care how much, but some thousands of dollars to the company. I said, I owe thousands of dollars because you're recording. You recorded this and this and this. And you got advances and this and this. I said, oh, my God. And then I looked at my brother.

And he was looking. He had an angelic look on his face. A gleam in his eye. He was gleaming. He was gleaming his eye. Yeah, he was excited. And I looked at him because, I mean, it did, obviously it caught his attention what he was looking at.

And I said, Brian, did you get any, did you get any check? He said, yeah. I said, well, let me see it. So I said, I want to look at his statement and check to see how he got this money. And then when I saw he got it from the song and this and that and nothing was deducted. I mean, just check.

And I said to myself, you know, I'm in the wrong end of this business because the, I mean, the making money is really what I was interested in.

It was not, it was really, it was not really singing at all. I really was interested in making money. That's what I was interested in. It was not really singing at all. I really was interested in making money. That's what it was. And you taught yourself songwriting really from scratch. Absolutely. You talk in the book, you picked apart two of Smokey's songs and broke them down and tried to teach yourself from the ground up how to write a song.

Absolutely. Because I had no idea how to write a song. Absolutely, because I had no idea how to write a song. And I was asking some people, well, how do you put a poem together? And I'm, well, how do you do this? I was asking everybody, like a guy in my neighborhood, his name was Walter Lee. And he could write poems. And he was writing this poem. And I said, where'd you get that from?

He said, well, I wrote that. I said, let me see it. So he showed it to me. And it's something about Longfellow or something, you know. And I said, you want to sell this? He said, yeah. I said, I give you $50 for it. He said, how much? I said, $50 for it. He said, you want to sell this? He said, yeah. I said, I give you $50 for it. He said, how much?

I said, $50 for it. He said, yeah. I wanted to take it, not to take his song, but to examine how he put this poem together. Because I had no idea. So I studied his structure and everything also. But Smokey's work was the key because I always felt that Smokey is the best of the best. And I just felt that, you know what?

I said, Smokey's, I mean, Smokey was so good, man. I kept asking myself, how can this guy be so good at this young age? You know, he beat me to the punch. And my guy. I mean, I said, in the rhyme schemes. Shop around. Shop around. I said, how would he?

As young as he was. Because we were very young. I said, how in the world does he know what he's talking about? Anyway, I got two of his songs, which I don't remember which two. And I just studied them and studied them. But I came to a quick conclusion that, you know what? I said to myself, I said, Ed, first of all, it would take you a lifetime to learn to function in this way with song.

So you never, I said, I don't have a lifetime to try to learn. I said, I'm going to have to come up with another approach and technique of my own. And that's what I really did. You know, I worked on it and worked on it. Then I came up with another technique and another approach to it. And it was very effective, you know. So Brian, while Eddie was teaching himself songwriting, you were already writing with other people. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, kind of.

Obviously, Please Mr. Postman was one of those songs. Yeah, Postman. And then I wrote a song with Lamont Dozier. I met him through his wife. And then I wrote this song, Forever, that we recorded on Marvelous and Marvin Gaye. And from there, we just started coming up with a couple more songs. And then Edward, he saw where we could make a team,

and he could join in and write the lyrics faster than we could, because I was not a lyric writer. Lamar could probably. I could write the lyrics faster than we could because I was not a lyric writer. Lamont could probably. I could write some lyrics, but primarily we were just playing music. So Elvis said he wanted to get involved. He'd write all the lyrics, and that's how HD got started.

See, Frank, what I noticed is this, that Bryant was a great melody person, and Lamont was very, very good also. And I noticed that it took them a long time to write the lyrics to these melodies, because they were coming up with the melodies at a fast rate, okay? Right. And they would go in the studio, and they would put these things together at a fast rate, okay? Right. And they would go in the studio and they would put these things together at a fast rate. But it took them forever, in my opinion, to do the lyric. And so when I noticed that, I said, you know what? I said, you guys would make so much money.

I was telling it to my brother, really. You would make so much money if you had someone to do the lyrics while you're doing those melodies. You'd get more product out. And I said, if I did the lyric, because at that time, I think I was just trying to make $10,000, which was a lot of money back in those days.

You get to understand something. The average worker back in those days was making $5,000, you know, which was a lot of money back in those days. You know, you got to understand something. The average worker back in those days was making $5,000 a year. The average attorney was making $15,000 to $20,000 a year. You know, so, you know, and so it was not that all that money that the people are making now, you know, it wasn't that kind of money. It puts the money that Barry was paying Jamerson per week in perspective. Absolutely. A thousand a week in those days, what, $7,000 today? Yeah.

And he was worth every penny. Oh, absolutely. Because even then, you can think, and people think in terms of, which was the hot car in that day was Cadillac. Cadillac was $5,500. which was the hot car in that day was Cadillac. Cadillac was $5,500. You know,

Rolls Royce was, you know, $25,000. You get a brand new silver cloud, you know? I mean, so it was a different, different,

you know, of course, but, uh, it is, but the, but the important thing we were excited about doing what? Making money while we were enjoying and having fun about what we were doing. And did Baron Cordy have a rule that you had to hook the audience in like the first six seconds of the song? He never ruled.

first six seconds of the song he never ruled well that was not a rule but he was just saying he would make the statement that well i don't know well oh i say brian is being technical i wouldn't say that technically he it was a rule but he believed it was the it. He believed that the product should be that way. The intro should get you in the way. He said it was very, very. So to me, it might as well have been a rule because he was so strong about it. And he was the songwriter. I mean, again, we were just learning. We were still learning.

So if being successful as he was writing those songs for Jackie Wilson, if he given you a direction to say you should have it, have these songs to catch you. At first, I don't know if it's six seconds or ten seconds, but it was intro. That's for sure. So that was that's part of the habit we learned. And it helped us a lot. I think of a song like You Keep Me Hanging On and that Walter Winchell type teletype sound at the beginning of the habit we learn. And it helped us a lot. I think of a song like You Keep Me Hanging On and that Walter Winchell type teletype sound at the beginning of the song.

That just draws you right in. Absolutely. Absolutely. free, why don't you, baby? Get out my life, why don't you, baby? Cause you don't really love me. You just keep me hanging up. You don't really need

me, but you keep me hanging up. Why do you keep coming around, playing with my heart? So you guys worked hard to come up with Why do you keep a-comin' around Playin' with my heart So you guys worked hard to come up with riffs and hooks. Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And also that they were saying in Motown, any sound at all that people heard, they were putting into... Yeah, like you'd hear a car horn or something. Oh, yeah. That would be

good in a song. Absolutely. You've got to understand, all this fancy equipment and all these creative sounds they have now, we had none of that to work with. I think at first we were working on eight. You didn't have synthesizers. We were working on, was it eight track at first, Brian?

Eight track we were working. Then it was 16 track. And then we went to 16 track. But you got to understand something. When we had eight tracks, that was big for us. Then 16 track, oh my God, we got 16 tracks to work on, man. But you know what? So they were piling up, and I remember a lot of times I was doing demo records,

and I would be on take 45, and then once you got the record, then if a drummer was off or somebody else was off, oh, you got to do that take again. So you had to know what you were doing. But let me tell you something. It gave us great training because for some reason, and I noticed later on, is that these producers were using 24, 34 tracks, and they were cutting. using 24, 34 tracks and they were cutting.

In other words, if they want a guitar sound, then they might do a guitar, get the 7, 8, 10, 12 times. We didn't do that. We had trained our ears to immediately know what they were doing. We had trained our ears to immediately pick out. If he did it twice, okay, that's the one. Go back to that. We didn't need all of those tracks because we made decisions

as we went along, but it helped us sharpening our instinct and ears to know what we wanted. This stuff about 30 times, this is nonsense. To think of Gilbert's comment, I think, too, of using interesting sounds, Brian,

I think of the oscillator. Oh, man. When think of the oscillator. When you guys got a little psychedelic. Oh, yeah. Oh, reflections. That's right. Yeah. We use the oscillator for that. That's another thing. That's another hook at the top of that song that draws you

right into it. Ha ha ha. Why did you guys only have three hours? Was it because you only had Studio A? You only had the Snake Pit? You had to come out of a three-hour session with three completed songs? It seems like a lot of pressure. You didn't have to come out of a three-hour session with three completed songs. It seems like a lot of pressure. You didn't have to come out with three completed sessions.

But you had to do two. We would only really go for two. It's just that at one point we... Yeah, that's what we were going for for the most part. But I would say this, that one point we that's where we were going for the most part but I would say this at one point we went into the studio

and cut the first I don't know three, four number one records on the Supreme we did three in that one session but then we were hungry then we were aggressively moving why? because we found out that this record Word I Love thoughabris, was going to be the biggest thing Motown had ever experienced.

It would thrust them into Oregon. Orbit. You know what I mean? And so we were excited about that because Barney Ailes, the salesman, said, hey, Barry. And this is all according to Barry Gordy. He said, Barry, you got to understand, this record is so phenomenal now. It's taking us in places and areas that we have never been. So Barry, when he left Barney's, you know, and which I tried to write a book about it and describe it as close as I possibly could.

write a book about it and describe it as close as I possibly could. I happened to be standing on the porch in Motown, and when Barry passed, leaving Barney's office. And Barry stopped, and he started talking to me. He said, Eddie, he said, we've got to have a follow-up with this

record, because Barney feels that this is the image, this is the threshold, this is the image, this is the threshold, this is the direction of what the company is going with these girls, the Supremes, you know? And so I immediately, when I talked to Barry, I hadn't listened to what he said, it's okay, I immediately went up there talking to Brian

and talking to Lamont, and I said, man, we got to come up with some records immediately for that follow-up, and that's what I did, you know? got to come up with some records immediately for that follow-up. And that's what I did, you know. And they worked on it hard. I mean, a couple weeks or something, a week or whatever, I don't know. But it was exciting times. I'm going to tell you, it was exciting.

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Just 300 seconds between you and your all-time favorites. Quick Crisp from Cavendish Farms. Made our way, enjoyed your way. Available right away. Brian, on the subject of where did our love go, and Eddie used an interesting word, he used the word orbit, the song wound up being played in outer space. Oh, yeah, that's true, that's true. What was your reaction to that?

I didn't know that. I thought it was really great. It was played out of space. I think for the Gemini astronauts. Yeah, right. It was played out of space. I remember that. Yeah, I remember that, too.

How about that? That's having some reach. That's out of space. What happened with the song Baby Love when you were, you guys, that was one of your drag-out fights, as you talk about in the book.

Oh, yeah. Well, baby love. Yes, it was. It was not a drag fights, as you talk about in the book. Oh, yeah. Well, not Baby Love. Yes, it was. It was not a drag. No, no, no. It was not a, no. It was not a drag. No, it was not a.

You call it a knock-down fight. No, we're a love group. You said Baby Love was one of those arguments because you hated the title. Hated the title. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't, you know, a lot of it Brian never knew. So that didn't happen to be a knockdown, drawn-out fight like a love-like tune and a couple of others. Brian and I would battle around the office and arguing, arguing. Lamont would ease his way out and disappear to wherever he was going.

He would just let you guys settle. Yeah, he didn't want the confusion. People do it that way now because we still get into it now with our opinions. We're just very opinionated guys. And usually at that time, I would win because Brian got tired of arguing with me. And he'd just say, hey, okay, fine. Let me see a way to make this work so this guy can shut up. That's what it boiled down to.

so this guy can shut up. That's what it boiled down to. But Baby Love, when he gave it to me, I knew that he was sensitive about it. So I didn't fight him on that because I knew that it had something to do with Diana Ross and whatever his feelings were. But the thing about it, I said, wow, Baby Love. I had to fight myself because I thought it was such a trite title.

I said, man, I cannot write enough Baby Love. Baby Love, what the hell is that? But anyway, it took me two weeks, at least two weeks, you know, to decide, was I going to use this trite title Baby Love? How was I going to make sense out of this thing? But I can make sense out of it because I knew Brian's feeling at that time. He described enough. And the way he was doing this melody, I could feel it. See, that was always the advantage of me doing the melodies that Brian would create

because I could feel it and I would just sort of describe the words that felt this talk to me you know I mean I would take words that expressed the feeling that he conveyed to me that's why I was doing it and you gotta understand something all those top 10 number one records, whatever. I was still learning. Of course. I was not, I didn't consider myself a professional writer. It's just that I was learning to

put, we call it block building. I would just put... Brian, would Eddie say to you you got to write more bars here because I haven't told my story? I need more story. Oh man, yes. I haven't told my story. I need more story. Oh, yeah. Oh, man.

I didn't finish my storyline. We had, boy, man, you're talking about some knockdowns running out of arguments, man. Because Brian just thought of the lyrics as what? Just another instrument. That's all. And barely that. Barely the instrument. It's just something that filled

in his instrumentation of the track he felt, he said look man, nobody listens to lyric nobody listens to lyric that's the last thing you listen to he said it's going by the music, the melody and the movement of that track that's what people get into

I said Brian, but you gotta have the lyric that makes sense he said well that makes sense that's all we need, nobody's gonna gotta have the lyric that makes sense. He said, that makes sense. That's all we need. Nobody's gonna get into the lyric. I was just a stickler for words to be as complete as he wanted his production to be completed.

Gotcha. Now, this might be complete and total bullshit, because I got it from the same documentary. Where did the song Stop in the Name

of Love come from? Oh, you know what? That was a title that Lamont came up with. How he got the title, where he got the title, I never knew. He gave him the movie book. He gave it to him in a movie book. Oh, yeah, the movie book?

Yeah, that's what he told me. He got it out of a movie book. O'Brien said he got it out of a movie book. He saw it. But it wasn't unheard of for you guys to use something from your personal life. Oh, no, no, no, no. As a source. Which, you don't really love me, you just keep me hanging on?

Oh, yeah, that was from my... One of those lyrics? That was mine, yeah, that was mine. Yes. Because someone told me that. That got into some kind of personal conflict, and the girl, she was a very strong-willed woman. She never, she was a very strong-willed woman. I think it hurt her feelings, so because of my involvement,

and she started breaking up, she started crying. I was surprised. She said, you don't love me. She said, you just keep me hanging on. She said, just get out of my life. Get out of my life. Did you leave the room and jot that down? No, I just looked at her, and I didn't say much.

I didn't try to argue with her because I knew, you know, and I just hoped that she calmed down. And she talked to her mother because she was still around the next two or three days, and I was surprised because she was one of those kind of females that if she said something, that's what she was going to do, you know. I see. And I didn't dare open up that can of worms. But then I asked her. I had to ask her.

After that third or fourth day she was still around, I said, well, what happened to change your mind? And she looked at me and she said, you know what changed my mind? My mother. My mother changed my mind. mother. My mother changed my mind. Because she said, my mother said you were a decent man, is that, and you were an honorable man and you were honest. She said she could tell. She said, let me explain something to you. She said, when a man is that young and make that kind of money and he is not bad to look at, you got to understand females are going to be after him.

He doesn't have to be after them. They're going to be after him. So you might as well live with it because that's the way it's going to be. On the subject, Brian, of you, let's say, underappreciating the contribution of lyrics, what is this great story from the book where years and years later you heard I Hear a Symphony? Oh, yeah.

And you decided you had to pick up the phone and call Eddie? Yes, yes, sir. Absolutely. I had to call him because I was, what happened, I was in the gym working out. And then when I finished working out, I got in my car and I Hear a Symphony came on. walking out, I got in my car and I hear a symphony came on. And I heard

Diane singing it. And after it kept going on and on and just kept going on, I hear a symphony. Every time you speak to me, I hear a symphony. And I said, man, I started crying. I started crying myself.

I said, that lyric is really great. I never thought about it two books until I heard it that day. I mean, really. Decades later, he paid you a compliment. I know. And I said to myself, man, you're going to wait 30 years to tell me that I wrote a great lyric in your opinion. I said, man, get out of here. Well, that line.

You know what I'm saying, Frank? See, the thing about it, I had been trying when I first started, I was trying to get a response to Brian, because I felt it was my role since I volunteered to

do lyric, that he had to be pleased. I figured that that was part of my responsibility. He never would say anything. I would say, was it okay? Am I doing it right? Yeah, yeah, it's okay, it's okay.

That's all he would say. So I never knew how I was doing, except when the lyric got in his way. He said, wait a minute. Don't you think I have horns in this part? I don't need lyrics there. I don't need lyrics there I don't need lyrics there I got some strings in here

Your lyrics are in the way of my strings He said it's in the way I said look Brian I can't be breaking up those songs Just because of the instrument And so he said man you gotta start writing But don't get in the way Of the production arrangement Well I gotta agree with

I gotta agree with Brian i i got to agree with brian because a particular line in that song baby baby as you stand holding me whispering how much you care a thousand violins fill the air that is poetry my friend and i can see why you cry my wife came into the room i was playing playing for her about an hour ago, and she stopped what she was doing, and she said, and I quote with no prompting for me, Ed, she said, that man is a poet. Oh, wow. Are you serious?

Now that is flattering to me because let me tell you something. I've been struggling to be an accomplished lyric writer all my life because always, like I said, my idol has been Smokey Robinson. I've been struggling to be an accomplished lyric writer all my life. Because always, like I said, my idol has been Smokey Robinson. Here's Smokey Robinson, okay? He's the greatest of the greats, you know. But wow, that's quite a compliment. And she got me standing.

She's got me walking. I'll be walking out of here at least three feet higher now. On a cloud. By the way, on the subject of I Hear a Symphony, there's also a great story in the book about Brian showing up at your door, Eddie, at night, and saying, we need this by the morning.

Oh, no, he didn't show up at the door. He called me from the studio. I see. Yeah. He called me from the studio, and he said, we got to have this song tomorrow because the girls are leaving town. And I think it was about 10, 11 o'clock then, at least 10. It was late. It was late for me, you know, because I was not a person that stayed up very late, you know, unless I was writing.

But I didn't think I could do it. not a person that stayed up very late, you know, unless I was writing. But I didn't think I could do it. I just said to myself, see, again, I'm in the learning stage. It would take me two to three weeks to write a song.

And that is constantly added with thick piles of papers constantly going over and over and trying to, you know, using the building block to get the feeling from the, and being inspired by the music and hoping that the words would express what I felt and what the music was saying to me. So I didn't think I could do it. And it was the most painful situation that I had to experience.

And like I said once and I'll say it again, I will never go through that again because it was like living hell. Because I was so tired trying to write that song that two, twice, I would go to the phone to call my brother and say, Brian, I can't do it. There's no way I can do this. And I felt bad about it and I stopped. And I went on and worked again for another

two hours. Then the sleep hit me and I couldn't think. My mind, you know, when you get real, real tired, you burn out. I mean, man, that is a horrible feeling. So I went to the phone again and went through it. And the fact of the matter is, and I stopped again. I had a hard to tell him that.

So the fact of the matter is that I was writing this all the way to the studio. At the studio, while I was rehearsing Diana Ross, I was still finishing up touches of the lyric. Wow. That's a lot of pressure. Oh, man. I'd never do it again. I will not. I got a couple of questions from listeners, including Whoopi Goldberg, who says, and I'm going to run this one, I'm going to direct this one at you, Brian. Whoopi wants to know, do artists, this one at you, Brian. Whoopi wants to know, do artists, performers, and songwriters today seem as hungry as they once were, or as they were in your guy's era? Well, I can't answer that. Well, in my opinion, I would say no. I would say no,

especially performers. I don't know about the writers so much, but performers, I would say no. know about the writers so much, but performers, I would say no. And successful artists, I would say no. For the simple reason, back in those days, it was very, very difficult. You know, as the youth progressed, the business had grown so much. I mean, for us to sell or get a gold record, I mean, that was a difficult situation. It's nothing for these kids to get a gold record. That's nothing for them. They get seven and eight, three, four platinum records. The fact of it is, they make a lot more money now.

They also, the population has grown so. And the money that they make, it's no need for them to do what we did. I mean, you've got to understand something. For us to get a million seller, you didn't get any more than $10,000, okay,

from the record company and another maybe five or six or seven from BMI, okay? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Let me tell you, I've had many samples of songs that we've done for Go Forever where picking up 30%, the check was $307,000. That was unheard of when we were coming up. But that only shows how many people are out there buying records. They have a lot of what you call leisure money, a lot more. You didn't have that kind of leisure money

when we were kids. When they said the record business was a penny business, absolutely it was a penny business. And you had this- Disposable income. That's right, disposable income. You had to scuffle for that money.

Out here now, it's a little bit, but many got, I mean, first of all, I admire all of them, okay? Because they have put this situation together in many, many ways. bit, but many guys, first of all, I admire all of them because they have put this situation together in many, many ways. They ask for more.

They involve themselves in the business much more than Brian and I or Smokey did, the artists of that day, of our day coming up. And they I mean, they're just much more business about what they're doing.

They want to control more. And what they do control, I mean, they make so much money, it's unbelievable. And I'm proud of them. One of the songwriters we had on this show that Gilbert alluded to or mentioned directly was Dennis Lambert of Lambert and Potter. Oh, Dennis Lambert of Lambert and Potter. And Dennis wrote to me and he said, would you please tell the Holland Brothers that their work with the Tops, the four Tops, set the standard for great R&B songwriting and production.

Baby, I need your lovin'. Reach out, I'll be there. Seven Rooms of Gloom. Bernadette. I can't help myself. Need I say more? They are the greatest R&B writers and producers of all time.

So, not so much a question, but a compliment. Okay, but I think he and his partner were great, too. Because I heard the things that they did on the fourth time. Those records are great. Ain't no woman like the one I got.

Whatever they did, if we influenced it, that just makes us proud. But let me tell you something, they mastered whatever it took, and they handled it and executed it. And the fact that other than ourselves, nobody else had ever did.

Well, he'll be happy to hear you say that. Great stuff, man. Yeah, he's a big talent. Love the stuff they did on the four times. you say that. It's great stuff, man. Yeah, he's a big talent. Love it. Love the stuff they do on the four tops. They're great. He's down in Florida now. I'll put you guys in touch.

Okay. Tell us something about the Funk Brothers. Tell us how important they were to your records. And only two still with us, by the way. Only Joe Messina and the great Jack Ashford are still around yeah sadly of the 13 profiled in the movie

and standing in the shadows of Motown I mean James Jamerson Joe Hunter, Benny Benjamin oh yeah oh my god Frank you know what I mean just this you mentioned the guy's name is just so, I mean, the memories, you know, and the emotional impact of what you're asking now, it just overflows within me. The fact of the matter is the Fugg brothers were extremely instrumental to the success of Motown, period. Okay?

Extremely instrumental to the success of the writers. Extremely instrumental to the success of the producers. Now, let me say this. Not because they orchestrated our songs for us, because Brian knew exactly what he wanted, okay? And he had to get what he wanted. But the difference is they mastered it. It is very difficult, especially the type of things that Brian comes up with, the type of chords Brian used.

It is very difficult for the average musician to master that, especially back in those days. I don't know about now so much, because they've learned a lot. But back in those days, it was very, very difficult. They mastered it. And when you're talking in terms of bass, I mean... Well, Jamerson was peerless. Oh, yeah, he was.

See, I met Jamerson, I think I was about 14 years old. And I remember Jamerson was walking across the street. He had this huge instrument. I said, what the hell is that? He said, that's the bass. I said, man, what is he carrying that ugly thing around for? And I could understand it. The thing was taller than him and bigger than him.

And he was carrying this thing from his house to the bus and carried it on the bus. Now, and in those days, you know, the guitar was a romantic instrument. If you're a guitar player, oh, my God, all the girls and everything else, you know. I said, where did he carry this ugly instrument? The next time I saw him, it was that Motown with the Fender Rose. You know, it was a bass, but yeah. But he had become so masterful at his instrument. It was unbelievable.

Yeah, two fingers. Two fingers. Yes, amazing. I can remember once, you know, when Brian was in the studio, and because it did get to a point where the guys got a little envious, a little bit. I don't know what kind of conversation they had between themselves. But Jamison, they were saying, because Holland Ocean and Holland

was making so much money. And they were making good money, too, but not the kind of money we were making. You know, nowhere near. And I remember Jameson being in the studio. And Brian was directing him. He said, and he played some chord. He said, what do you want, Brian? He said, you mean this chord?

Brian said, no, no. He said, well, this one here? He said, no. And Brian said, he told him what chord he wanted. He said, I want you to play this chord over this, ba-ba-ba, and it shocked Jamison. Because Jamison, and like all the other musicians, was under the impression we knew nothing about music.

As a rule, the producers didn't. Not the way Brian does. Brian's ear, he could tell you what chord, how to get the chord and everything else. So he was shocked. So that changed Jameson's attitude towards that. But

saying that, notwithstanding that, this guy and all those funk brothers, they were magnificent. And again, we would have never been able to make the money because for simple reason, we could have never done three and two tunes

or one three-hour session. We would have never been able to do it. Most people stay in that six hours or one tune. We always came out with at least two. Well, my friend Gary Citro asked a question, too. How much freedom, then, did the studio musicians have in shaping a song? Not much. Not with Brian. Not with us. Not with Holland Dozier. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, not with us. Because Brian knew what he wanted. Brian was telling him he knew what he wanted while I was doing this lyric or telling him how many bars I wanted for this song.

Brian was hearing the music then. He was telling me, no, no. In other words, when I would tell Brian, I said, Brian, I need eight bars here. I said, you gave me four bars before or you gave me six bars before. I need eight bars. I said, Brian, I need eight bars here. I said, you gave me four bars before, or you gave me six bars before. I need eight bars. He said, what for? He said, because I got my music coming in here. He said, can't you hear this?

I said, Brian, no, I can't hear it. You can't hear these instruments in his head. He was hearing the horns. It was in the violin. I said, Brian, no, I can't hear that. But I do know this. This is what I need to write this song, you can't hear that, but I do know this. This is what I need to write this song.

Anyway, he knew what he wanted. He knew exactly what he wanted. We direct our listeners, too, and we have a lot of them, to check out Standing in the Shadows of Motown, a documentary from about 18 years ago about the Funk Brothers, which is fascinating and part of

the Motown story, an essential part of the Motown story, an essential part of the Motown story. Gil, did you want to ask about something in the documentary that touched you about when Barry sent the artist down south? Yeah. You had to go out and tour on a bus. Well, yeah, Smokey. You guys didn't go, right? Well, let me tell you something.

Smokey was there. Martha was there. I know about it. Yeah, we knew about it. We didn't go. We knew about it, but no, we didn't do that. What did you hear about? Well, we just heard that a lot of the racism,

you know, and a lot of the prejudice at that time in the South. You can only eat at certain places. And you can only eat at certain places. And there are no bathrooms on the bus. So they had to stop to use the bathroom. Additional problem. They shot a couple times. They shot at the bus.

Somebody shot the bug. And I also knew, you know, this, is that album covers had to be a certain way where it doesn't reflect a whole lot of blackness. The record and the music was black, but the covers could not reflect too much blackness because the South was not having it so they weren't going to buy the records thank heaven for barney for helping those white stations oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and and uh this is uh this is also uh fascinating and something from the book. I think it was you, Eddie, that the term R&B you had an issue with because you thought it was in some ways a segregated term. You guys were writing for all audiences. Yeah, it wasn't true. You guys were writing pop. See, first of all, we weren't writing true R&B, okay?

Not really, okay? And my attorney, who is very, very black, and he would say, Holland, what do you got? You and Brian, you're doing this aureole music. I said, what do you mean? He said, man, there ain't no black music. He says, aureole music. He said, white on the inside is black on the outside. But, you know, because we were just, we were brought up in such a mixture of music, you know, in our homes.

And we would just listen to so much of it. And all kinds of music. It was mostly like comp, bassy, jazz. I mean, you name it. Bean Cosby. I mean, you know, it wasn't white or black music. And that King Cole, what was he singing? He wasn't singing white.

Of course. He was always, everybody was he singing? He wasn't singing white. Of course, of course. He was always, everybody was buying his music, black and white, you know. But it was, hey, man, it was music. You know, that's what he was doing, you know. That's who you guys were writing for. That's who we grew up. That's who we grew up with. Brian, you know, being listening, impressed with the orchestrations

and the symphonic sounds when he was going to school. He was impressed with all the music, all the instruments. So in his chords, that's what caused him to be very, very expansive in his chords. And by the way, you guys should hear Gilbert sing. We're going to send you Gilbert singing MacArthur Park with Jimmy Webb. You guys will never be the same. Hey, don't leave that cake out in the rain now. Wasn't that a great line?

Wasn't that a great line? Jimmy Webb came away and left the cake out in the rain. The cake in the rain. Man, that was a great line. Too long to bake it. Right. And then they say, I never had that recipe. I can never get that recipe again.

Yeah, that's it. What was the most disappointing and heartbreaking moment of talking to Jimmy Webb? I always thought that was so brilliantly poetic. Left the cake out in the rain. so brilliantly poetic left the cake out in the ring. And then he said he was in the park and there was a piece of cake on a

bench and it was a ring. Are you serious? Yeah, and I thought what the fuck is that? I wanted some brilliant piece. I thought, oh, what a poetic genius. You thought it was an ingen, oh, what a poetic genius.

You thought it was an ingenious metaphor, not a literal cake. You know what, Gilbert, that's the same thing that I always thought. And I'm glad you cleared it up because he's been driving me crazy. I said, how did a guy come up with that line? Why did I come up with that line? You know, because one thing certain writers, they will do, they'll see a line, they'll love it. They'll say, wow, I wish I would have came up with that line. I wish I would have written that song.

So now the pressure's off of me now. So maybe I should get something else in the ring and create some kind of inspiration. Shakespeare. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast. But first, a word from our sponsor. See yourself buying a home one day? Do future you a favor. Open a Questrade first home savings account and help that future come faster.

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They're soft, chewy, and baked fresh daily. Try one today at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. We got to ask you guys about some of these giants that you work with. I mean, first off, I don't think we've done 320 of these podcasts. I don't think we've interviewed anybody who knew Jackie Wilson personally. I knew him personally. I know. You're the first one.

Can you tell us something that stands out in your mind or your memory about the great Jackie? Well, first of all, let me go all the way back. My uncle married Jackie Wilson's cousin, okay? And my uncle, he would often talk about Jackie Wilson, Jackie Wilson, and I'd heard about Jackie Wilson around the neighborhood. Jackie Wilson, Jackie Wilson. But I didn't really know that much about him as far as singing. And then my uncle, when he, and he said, you know what? He said, Jackie Wilson went and auditioned

for the Dominoes to take Clyde McFatter's place. I can imagine anybody having a nerve to take Clyde McFatter's place. Because I thought he was the greatest of the great. And he said that they didn't take him, though. He said, so he went home. And then he told me, you know what? He said, Billy Ward came by Jackie's house to get him.

He wants him in the Dominoes. He said, because Clyde McFatter, he just fired. So it went from there to Clyde McFatter performing for the Dominoes and my uncle always buying his records. So he would play his records over and over and over again. And so I was impressed with the records. And when I hear a person I can sing, I would always say, well, I could sing that. Let me sing this song. So he would have this song, Christmas in Heaven, Love Me Now, Let Me Go.

I said, oh, I can sing that. And I would just sing the songs. And then I found out, you know, when I would go to groups, they said, well, what do you sing? I didn't know that many songs. They said, well, I said, well, I know this song, Christmas in Heaven. They said, Christmas in Heaven? He said, you can sing this? Yeah.

They said, well, let me hear it. Because they didn't think I could sing it. But i didn't realize they didn't think i could sing it at the time so they would listen to me they were always impressed and that's what i would do to audition all the time i would do a jackie wilson song because nobody could sing jackie wilson song which i didn't know at the time because they were very easy for me to sing, you know, because I would always listen. See, Mario Lanza was really my idol. Mario Lanza? Wow.

Yes. I would listen to Mario Lanza music in the movies, and I would buy Mario Lanza's records, and he sang his opera, all that. He would say, man, I love Mario Lonza. And I would buy his records, and I would listen to Mario Lonza's record and go to every movie as many times as I could.

And then I noticed that Jackie Wilson was singing almost like an operatic technique. He did that operatic song from that opera. Yeah. Come back, my darling, you're gone. But this was even before. I mean, I was a teenager.

I was 17, 16. What was it like seeing Mr. Excitement on stage? Oh, he was great. Well, he's very, very good. And you know what really impressed me is this. It's when Barry had him over to his house. And I came by to Barry's house to

rehearse. And then Jackie Wilson was there in the bathroom shaving and singing. I said, oh my God, Jackie's in there. And then I was hearing Jackie Wilson. I said, man, that guy, he's better than I thought he was. The way his voice was. I said, oh my God,

he's better than I thought he was and then when he came out he was very very nice you know and then Barry was boasting on me you should hit this guy Eddie Holland he can sing like Sam Cooke he can sing your stuff and Jackie said he can't he said yeah sing for him Eddie

I said oh man what about somebody else we lost way too young, the great Marvin? Oh, wow. We all knew Marvin G well. And you guys wrote two wonderful signature Marvin hits, Can I Get a Witness

and, of course, How Sweet It Is. Yeah. He was truly one of a kind. Very, very unique individual. He was always extremely, extremely moody. Often I would see him and I would say, Marvin, what's wrong, man? What's wrong? He's all nothing, all nothing.

And I would try to get him to talk about it. He wouldn't talk. He wouldn't want to talk about it. He's all nothing. So who knew? He wouldn't say. He was just so introverted, But very pleasant, very nice. But he was always, it's like, he was bothered with something.

He was extremely moody. A troubled guy. Yeah, he was troubled. Yeah, he was very much so. Great, great, great singer, obviously. And also, don't forget now, Willie John. The kid, when I was going to school don't forget now, Willie John now. The kid when I was going to school,

he was 14, 15 years old. Willie John was maybe the greatest. I'm going to tell you, man, that guy was so good. He was 14, 15 years old. He would sing and perform like he was 35 or 40. I don't know how. He was just a gifted singer.

He was gifted. There are certain singers that are good He was just a gifted singer. He was gifted. There are certain singers that are good and there are certain gifted singers. Now, here's a story. Like Gilbert is gifted. I heard it from the documentary. So, you can tell me

to go talk to myself. Now, the story is of giving a song to the receptionist at Motown. Oh, Martha. Yes. Martha. Oh, yeah. She came to audition and wound up answering Barry's phone. Yeah.

Or was it? Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn't Barry's phone. No, no, no. Maybe it was Mickey's phone. Mickey made a secretary. Mickey made her secretary. Matter of fact, she was the secretary when we got to sing Heat Wave.

She was the secretary then. We needed somebody to sing the song. And we got Martha Reeves to sing the song Heat Wave. Did the Supremes turn down Heat Wave before you gave it to them? Okay, so see this is bullshit that's floating around on the internet.

We've got to dispel these myths. Let me make it real very, very, very clear. Barry Gordy, the way he ran his company is this. He would only hire certain people with certain personalities in the first place.

Because Barry was a stickler for being able to get along with people. He felt that was important. Okay. Now I say that to say this. If a producer recorded an artist, Barry didn't allow an artist to tell the producer they're not going to sing it. He didn't want to. You can't do that.

If you do, you better tell Barry, let Barry have it. Because Barry didn't like the idea of any artist telling the producer no because that would stop the flow that would stop the creativity from the producer to the artist it would stop it because then you would have producers redoing songs and say well I don't want to give

it for this person or I don't want to write for this person because they're never going to do this song it would kill the enthusiasm so Barry I'm glad we cleared that up he was smart in many many ways want to write for this person because they're never going to do this. It will kill the enthusiasm. I'm glad we cleared that up. He was smart in many, many ways. That was like in the old studio system. They told an actor

to do a movie and there was no such a thing as saying, no, I don't want to do it. That's right. I think Bette Davis and Joan Colford. Well, mostly Betty Davis. She had to fight them for years.

She had to sue them, and then she sued them for years. You know what? Martha was answering the phones for Mickey and winds up singing the lead on Heat Wave. Reminded me and Gilbert of when Carole King had her babysitter, Lil' Eva, sing the locomotion. Oh, I heard about that.

Is that something? Yeah. At the risk of starting yet another argument between you two guys, is there still sore feelings? Are there still sore feelings about Eddie collaborating with Norman Whitfield on Ain't Too Proud to Beg? Sore feelings?

Oh, yeah. Who said that? This is not me. This is what happened. It's in the book. No, it's true. It's true. Brian doesn't remember.

See, this is what happened. And I never even discussed this. This was Brian. Norman, at that time, was asking me. The great Norman Whitfield. The great Norman Whitfield. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

He was asking me to do his lyric, okay? The Great Normal Woodfield. He was asking me to do his lyric, okay? And the fact of the matter is that he came to me. He always had me to write certain songs for him. Then he came to me doing a song called Ain't Too Proud to Be. And I really didn't want to do it, you know, because when I heard it, I didn't like it.

It didn't make much sense to me. There was no real lyric there. And the track, there was no real melody there. So he played the track and he kept telling me do this and do it. I'll get a hit record. I'll get a smash. Because I can beat Smokey's record out on the next Temptations.

I said, man, leave Smokey Long, Smokey anyway, make a long story short Norman came to me and said Ed, if you write this I could get it, I could beat him out on this release and I said

okay Norman, I listened to it I listened to it and I said it's no lyric here I said there's one line I said, there's no lyric here. I said, there's one line. I think it was in the third verse. I said, here's one line here that says, ain't too proud to beg. I said, that's the only one that makes sense to me. I said, I could probably take that line and create a story around it.

He said, well, do it. Do anything you want to, as long as you write it. I said, okay. And I had to take it, and I had to ad-lib the melody. There was no real melody there. I just ad-libbed through the track, and it came out good. So I did that one, two, three song, and then my brother, he said something, I don't know if you remember. He came to he said he said something about you if you when you he made he was sort of sarcastic but he he just meant it it's like he was saying if you if you if you weren't spending so much time working on norman whitfield's song maybe it was some song i was late for and had

delivered something for he said i spent so much time on Norman Whitfield's song. And I just looked at him and thought, we didn't argue about it. We didn't fight about it. But he made that statement. So I knew then that whatever I was doing, it was interfering with something he wanted me to do. And that's all he said.

Norman's over it now. I mean, excuse me, Brian's over it now. I've been over it now I mean, excuse me Brian's over it now I've been over it No, he didn't hold a grudge But I'll tell you one thing Actually, I felt very, very bad about it At the end of the year

Because Holland Ocean Holland Had won Songwriter of the Year through PMI Two times in a row They would have won three times in a row if it was not for me and those three tunes I did for Norman Whitfield. How about that? So there was competition.

I mean, Norman was directly trying to compete with Smokey, and the Temptations were Smokey's thing. They were Smokey's domain. But like I said, to this day, I still say, man, they would have won three times in a row because those three songs I did with

Norman made me the songwriter of the year. Because they took the ones I did with Holland Dozier, then they took the ones I did with Norman Whitfield, so that third year, I became songwriter of the year. But I still felt badly about it then.

I feel badly about it now because I was always trying to keep and maintain the image of Holland Dozier Holland. I'm sorry I brought it up. I'm sorry too, Holland. I always wanted to ask you guys this. What Holland Dozier Holland covers do you guys appreciate?

Phil Collins' version of You Can't Hurry Love, James Taylor's cover of How Sweet It Is, Johnny Rivers did a pretty damn good version of Baby, I Need Your Lovin'. Very, very good question. Which one or ones do you guys enjoy on their own merits? Well, let me tell you. The guys from England, when they did You Keep Me Hanging On. Oh, I'll have to look that up. Brian loved that.

I thought they did a great job. Brian heard that. Yeah, Brian. I can't think of the group's name offhand. I can't think of it either Brian but you know what I remember Brian coming to me he said man you should hear this group they did

you keep me hanging on he said man you should hear the version Brian was so excited about that version Brian is never excited about too much of anything he thinks is exceptional you know

but I like Johnny River, I like that one Brian liked too because it was a unique version of it but I like The Baby I Need You Lovin' I do Was it Vanilla Fudge?

Oh, there you go. Oh, you looked it up, huh? I looked it up. Vanilla Fudge. I don't know how I could have forgotten. I looked it up. I cheated. No, you didn't.

James Taylor does a wonderful job with how sweet it is. He does, he does, he does. Sweet Baby James, they call him. Yep, yep. And one other question, which is sort of a life perspective question. I mean, you guys are two guys that grew up in Detroit, you know, borrowing your uncle's records, singing on street corners. There you are in 1990, and Diana Ross is standing on the stage

inducting you guys into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Did you get choked up? Did you think, wow, how the hell did we get here? You know what? The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, the only time I was choked up and wondered how did we get here, I was in the hallway in some kind of way. They had all those awards with all the people that I have admired for years and years. And I was trying.

I was there by myself then, and I said to myself, how did I get here? to myself, how did I get here? Because I didn't think I qualified for being in the presence of all these people that I admired for so many years. And it was just like an out-of-body experience with me. And I figured that what a privilege it was to be even associated with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, because I knew that that was only for performers. Sure, sure. The other one is the Velo Award. The Velo Award from England. Yeah, that's great, too.

But I mean... Well, first of all, that's the English top award. I know. That's great. For musicians, not songwriters. Oh, okay. Well, here's one for you. Since you brought up Betty Davis and Joan Crawford, how was it joining their company on the Hollywood Walk of Fame?

Oh, man. How did that feel? Yeah, that was great, really great. That was wonderful. I think my family, they come in town to go to Hollywood just to see that star. Yeah, that was really stuff. But Shirley is here looking at me because she works many in his hours. And she said that she worked almost 16 years on that, trying to get us that star.

And she keeps reminding me, you didn't even thank me when you were you didn't thank shirley even your accolade you didn't even she said you could have at least give me a shout out but you know what i i was i i wasn't myself that day to be perfectly honest with you i really wasn't and you know but it was one of those things. But it was good to do it. The only time, like I said, I've ever been excited is when I was standing in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. That's the only time.

You were pretty excited, too, according to the book, a day in August, I believe, in 1963 at Motown when you heard a booming voice coming down the hallway. Do you know who I'm referring to? Oh, you're talking about Dr. King. Dr. King was in the building. Right, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I was. You used the words in awe. I was, I was. When he walked through the door and I was in the, I can remember just like it was yesterday, Brary and I was in the recording studio, okay? And I was there, and then the voice came and walking, and the door opened, and I remember he said,

Barry? I said, wow. When I looked and saw that man, I said, oh, wow. I can't believe it. How about that? I mean, I couldn't even pinch myself enough to wake up to say, give me your autograph or nothing.

I was just in awe. But, you know, I was in awe when I saw Richard Pryor at Motown. He was going to sign with Motown, but I don't know what happened. But he was there, very shy guy. I mean, he's just a different kind of person. Very different. Richard Pryor. And another thing I was in awe of when Shirley introduced me to Rosa Parks.

Oh, wow. I couldn't, I was, man, I was so in awe. She was saying, why don't you take us to dinner? Take you to dinner, man. I couldn't do it. I could not. I said, man. I couldn't do it. I could not. I said, sure, I can't do it. I, just in her presence.

About that. I mean, I could not take, I could, no, not to lunch. I couldn't do it. Because I mean, I was so stunned and so, it was such a weird experience for me. And I looked at Rosa, but I didn't want to speak to her. I was just in awe, you know, and it was, I'm sorry that I didn't, but man, I was,

I was, I was so in awe and so impressed. I was just, if I was ever speechless or stunned, it was that time. Yeah. Of course. She's royalty. Gilbert got to know Richard Pryor a little bit, Brian. Oh, yeah? Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, I did a terrible film with him. Oh, yeah? And I didn't make it to the final cut.

Oh, wow. But he couldn't have been... He was treating me like he was a star-struck kid. And that he was, you know, can't believe he's meeting a big star. He was terrific. Oh, yeah, he was. I never met him other than Motown. He came in there.

But he didn't want to talk to nobody. He just looked away. He was very shy't very shy very shy one of a kind talent yeah oh yeah one of a kind talent let's plug this wonderful book which is coming out on audio shirley tells me the great shirley washington who by the way we have to thank for all of this and shirley all this together. We're indebted to her and to Brandon Lewis, Shirley's son, who set up the tech

and saved our lives today. But this book is not just a memoir about your guys' lives. I mean, it's a story of the period. It's a story of Barry. It's a story of the history of Motown. It's a story of the history of pop music in America.

It's an indispensable book. I've recommended a fair amount of books on this show, but I cannot recommend this one enough to our listeners. Come and get these memories, and we're going to plug it like crazy on social media because it's essential history. And, Eddie, you wanted to put a different title on it. Yeah, but I just didn't want to use Come and Get These Memories. I didn't know which one I wanted to use. At first I said maybe Reflections

but I wasn't really sure. But I'm glad that I left it like it was. I really am. Didn't you want to call it Setting the Record Straight? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. Setting the Record Straight. Absolutely. I wanted to be like, what do to call it setting the record straight? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. Setting the record straight. Absolutely. I wanted it

to be like, what do you call it? The co-title. What is it called now? Come and get these memories and then right under it in large print. Oh, like a subtitle. Setting the record straight. I sure did.

Right. You guys set the record straight. I sure did. Yeah. Right. You guys set the record straight today. I'm going to send you some episodes where Gilbert sings. Oh, okay. He is a gifted stylist, right, Gil? Oh, yes. Yes. I have to thank Shirley.

Let me say something. First of all, I've been watching Gilbert for many, many years and been laughing about his comedic style for years. He's not new to me. How about that, Gil? Two fans. I used to try to emulate him, but I couldn't quite get it.

I couldn't quite get the way you did. Do an imitation of me now. I don't care. I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't. No, I'm not going to embarrass myself. I've tried many times.

I could not do it. Guys, we know you have another interview. Yeah. Okay. All right. This was a joy, an absolute joy. Thank you so much for all the pleasure you brought us over the decades. And can you two come back and just talk about me?

Absolutely. How's Barry doing, by the way? You talk to him all the time? No, I don't talk to him that much He's retired But every time I try to find out how he's doing He's okay What a great American success story

Unbelievable Unbelievable They'll never be another Motown They'll never be anything else But with that model It is unique It is a unique period in history And in the culture There'll never be another Motown. There'll never be anything else with that model. Yeah, you're right. You know, it is unique. It is a unique period in history and in the culture.

Absolutely, absolutely. He's a giant. You guys are such a part of history. We're really so grateful to the two of you for all the work and for sharing your time with us today. We know you're busy. All right, then. Thank you very much.

We thank you for taking your masks off to do the interview. Stay safe. Thank you very much. We thank you for taking your masks off to do the interview. And this has been Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. And we've been talking to the legendary members of Motown, Brian Holland and Eddie Holland. I got one last question I'm squeezing in, and I know you can't, this is like picking your children. One song, one song that you guys want to be remembered by, each of you. Brian? Oh, well, it's hard to say because I love them all. Of course. But I would say if I had to pick one,

I'll pick I Hear Symphony. Okay, now I have to pick out one that wasn't as successful as the others and it's Love Is Here and Now You're Gone. I love that record. Love them both. Love the production. Thank you, gentlemen.

Thank you. Thank you. Have a great one. Thank you, Gilbert. Thank you, Frank. You've given me a true love And every day I thank you love For a feeling that's so new

So inviting, so exciting Whenever you're near I hear a symphony A tender melody Pulling me closer, closer to your heart. Then suddenly, your lips are touching mine. I'm feeling so divine, till I leave the past behind. I'm lost in a world made for you and me Whenever you're near, I hear a symphony, play sweet and tenderly, every time your lips meet mine. Don't let this feeling in Let it go on and on and on Now baby, baby, baby Those tears that feed my eyes

I cry not for myself But for those who never felt the joy we felt Whenever you're near A symphony Each time you speak to me I hear a tender Rhapsody of love Now baby, baby As you stand

Holding me Whispering how much you care A thousand violins Feel the air Thank you. I hear a symphony.