Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Buck Henry Encore

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

GGACP celebrates National Aviation Month (!) by revisiting the infamous Pat McCormick helicopter story in this ENCORE of an interview with legendary writer-actor-director Buck Henry. In this episode, Buck looks back on his 50+ year career and shares hilarious anecdotes about Orson Welles, James Mason, John Belushi and Jonathan Winters (among others). Also: Buck adapts “Catch-22,” praises Richard Benjamin, invents the Cone of Silence and co-directs “Heaven Can Wait." PLUS: “Captain Nice”! “Samurai Delicatessen”! Claude Rains speaks! The hoaxes of Alan Abel! And Buck remembers “That Was the Week That Was”!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I don't even know how to answer that question. Allison after Nexium from CBC's Uncover is available now on Spotify. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast. I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santo Padre, And once again, we're recording at Nutmeg with our engineer Frank Ferdorosa. Our guest this week is an actor, producer, director, and one of the most successful and original television and film writers of the last 60 years. And frankly, when we found out he was willing to do this podcast, we were thrilled.

As a performer, you've seen him on TV shows like, Murphy Brown, Will & Grace, 30 Rock and the Daily Show, and as one of the most popular guest hosts of Saturday Night Live, hosting that show on 10 separate occasions, a record at that time. He also has done memorable acting work and movies, including Taking Off, The Man Who Fell to Earth, Gloria, Eating Raoul, shortcuts defending your life, the player, and first family, which he also directed. But it's as a writer he's left his most indelible mark on the 20th century culture, writing satire

and sketch comedy on the Steve Allen show, the Gary Moore Show, and that was the week that was, as well as creating or co-creating three TV shows we've discussed and celebrated at length on this very podcast. Quark, Captain Nice, and one of television's most enduring and well-loved comedies, get smart. And as for the big screen,

well, he's scripted a few films you may have heard, of, including Heaven Can Wait, which he also co-directed, Catch 22, The Owl and the Pussycat, Watch Up Doc, to Die for, and of course an obscure little picture called The Graduate. Please welcome to the show, one of the great comic minds of his time, and a man who had the good fortune of meeting Humphrey Bogart when he was a kid, the legendary Buck Henry. Thank you for that beautiful, beautiful endorsement. It filled with lies. It was still beautiful, as so many lies are.

I'm very excited now because I had a guest last week, Bob. Cat Goldthwaite and now I have you and with the three of us this makes a kind of a reunion of an old great screen comedy do you remember which one oh gosh and what are the uh facets there was a horse in it okay we'll turn all the cards over we I think he doesn't want to remember in the Bob Goldthwaite comedy, Hot to Trot. Oh, I know that. Yeah. I thought you were talking about something else.

That I couldn't remember. That horse movie. Yes. I'm thinking the Marks Brothers are in two movies with horses. Oh, yeah. Well, horse feathers, for one. And Day at the Races. Yeah.

Right. Yeah, that one wasn't quite the Marx Brothers level of quality. Yeah, they started falling in quality pretty quick. Now, what? Tell us your real name, Buck. Fred Sankold Papa Shanniske. It's similar to my own. It's my married name. He gets very excited when there's a Jewish fellow on the show, Buck.

I haven't seen any around. But you're Henry Zuckerman, right, from New York City, from the Upper East Side. That's true. Yeah. Now, you had, you said when you changed it, well, one was you were, one of the reasons you were doing a production in Cape Cod. And the manager of the production, they wouldn't put on the show if he kept his own name because it was a Jewish name. That was true. All through the business.

So that's why all these old great comics like Jack Benny, George Burns, Jerry Lewis, all changed their names? Yes. And you also said, and this one gave me chills, that another reason you changed it, for a while, your passport was still under your old name. And you had to legally change it to Buck Henry because back then they were hijacked. and quite often the hijackers would line people up and go, okay, we're pulling out all the Jews out of this group. Yes. Yeah, no. And that was one of the reasons you changed it because you didn't want to be identified as a Jew. I was traveling all the time in those years. And they kept throwing people out of planes for shooting them in the head.

And I thought, I'd feel really stupid if one of these things happened and I hadn't taken certain precautions. So you went with a safer name. You went with the Gentile name, as it were. Buck Henry. Tell us about something that was in the intro, Buck, because we talked about you meeting Bogie as a kid. And, of course, you come from a showbiz family. Your mother was a famous actress, Ruth Taylor. Yeah, my father and Bogart were close friends, which is how I got to know him.

What was Bogard like? Was he friendly? Yes. Tell us about your mom, Ruth Taylor. What about her? She was a silent screen actress. She starred in one of the great lost films of the Hollywood Golden Years. You know, there's a book of Hollywood's lost films,

films of which there are no prints that you can run. Yeah, gentlemen prefer blondes was that film, right? Yeah. Yeah. And she was the original Laurel I Lee? Yes. So you grew up around writers and theater people. I did. Yeah. Also, a name that, two names had pop up from your childhood. Who were Arthur and Hilda? My brother and sister in New Jersey. So these were totally fabricated?

Totally, yes. Yeah. So you just wanted like these playmates to have. I thought it was more interesting when people asked me whom I grew up with. If I could reference Arthur and Hilda, which none of my parents' friends had ever heard of. So I could hear them sometimes going into another room with them and saying, Ruthie, you never said anything about Buck's brother and sister. And they was, what the fuck are you talking about? So you were already as a kid getting into this smart ass joking around.

Yes. Well, we knew all the famous practical jokers of the time. My father was one of them. My father was one of the original crew of, I think it was six, his raw stock exchange guys. And there were four or five of them that made their reputation by setting up these elaborate practical jokes, many of which ran afoul of the law, which was their charm. Interesting. Now, we were talking before we went on about the characters you played on Saturday Night Live. And one was a pretty perverted one called Uncle Roy. Yeah. And you were like a babysitter, and Gilderadner and Lorraine Newman were two little girls.

Yep. And you would basically get, you were basically a pedophile in those. But a likable one. Yes. the little girls love me that's all it mattered yes yeah you would get them to lift their skirts up and you'd take pictures and then ride on your lap well buck you always said that you would the reason the right one of the reasons the writers loved you and loved when you hosted is that you were willing to do things that other hosts weren't willing to do yeah i like to look in the

rejected tray oh yeah those were where the jokes on the sketches that were really interesting landed And Uncle Roy was among them? Yeah. Yeah. Then were only two of them. Lauren would usually say to me, we got a very strange one here. You want to look at it? And I would say, yes.

Please let me look at strange ones. Yeah, people talk about the controversy of Uncle Roy. They remember more than there were. They were actually only two. Yeah. And you would have that wonderful last line when you're looking at the camera. Jane Curtin, I believe it was, said, oh, you're one of a kind, Roy. And you would turn to the camera and say, oh, there are more.

of us out there than you think. I had this self-serving fantasy that all over America, little girls were turning from their position on the floor near the TV set, turned to look at their mothers and fathers and saying something about their uncle Roy to the horror of their parents. Interesting. There was one very funny bit on Saturday night where you were. like this boring radio host who was talking about tax-free municipal bonds. It's a great one.

I couldn't get anyone to call, you know. And then you kept the subject matter to get people riled up. Like, one of them, I think, was no toilets for the blind. And Hitler, boy, do we need them now. Have you seen this sketch recently or you committed it to memory? I remember this. That's great. I remember this because you were desperately ready to get people angry to call in.

I remember you playing Ron Nesson, too, Nixon's press secretary, or Ford's, I guess. And we talked to, before we turn on the mics, we were talking about one of your favorites, maybe your favorite, the Lord and Lady Dushbag sketch from the U.S. I love Lord and Lady Dushbag. I can watch it all the time. It's wonderful, full of great gags. And Harry Shearer, last season of the original cast, 79. and we were saying that was right before you came on, Gil. Yeah, that was a bad time period when I was on.

Gilbert had the misfortune of being in the replacement cast, Buck. Really? Yeah. Yeah, it was like, I always say it's like if in the middle of Beatlemania, they got rid of John Paul, George, and Ringo and just hired four of the schmucks. Tell us about writing for Steve Allen. Tell us about how you got, how, I know, was it a short. it lived show. It didn't last, but

I've heard you say that he was the one person you wanted to work for, and you got to. Well, he hired people that no one else would hire. I mean, he had Lenny Bruce on. There were no other front guys for a TV show that would do it.

He had singers that nobody cared about. Right. And he's a visionary. And I think David Letterman always said he modeled himself. In the beginning, he modeled himself after Steve Allen. Interesting, you know.

And when you got there, they partnered you, and I've heard you talk about this guy who's sadly no longer with us, but a very funny guy named Stan Burns. Yeah. Who went on to write things for like Flip Wilson

and the Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour. But it's fun the way you talk about him and how he would come up with ten jokes. For any subject, any event. If something happened overnight that was tragic or weird, I would call Stan Burns. first thing in the morning

and say, Stan, so-and-so died or so-and-so fell out of a boat and all this. And he'd do 10 jokes on it in 10 seconds. Funny guy. You said he was sight-gagging his way through life. I love that expression. What does that mean?

Well, he was also the inspirational writer for Jonathan Winters. He was visual, too. Yeah. And then he became half of Burns and Marmer, right? And then you used them on Get Smart. Yes. Now, we have something else in common.

We can both claim we were in Aladdin. Now, I was in the Disney version of Aladdin, and you were in a production in North Carolina. I was in the famed traveling production of Aladdin and his wonderful lamp. You probably don't remember it. What year are we talking about, Buck? I don't know.

About, yeah, 50-something. 50-something, okay. And then in North Carolina, there was a blizzard that started. And you basically escaped through the back of the hotel. I climbed down the fire ladder. I ran across several fields and hitchhiked my way to New York. Wow. How long did that take?

It was something like 20. 27 rides. Wow. Oh, my God. And you said you practically froze to death out there because it was very cold. And people kept asking me to leave their vehicles. Why? Offensive behavior on my part.

Oh, really? What was you doing or saying? I was disagreeing with something the driver was saying. usually political So it took 27 rides to get there Took almost three days I found this interesting too We're all New Yorkers and you were talking about

When you first started doing stage it There was something called the subway circuit Yeah And you would perform all over New York And I didn't know that existed We do a lot of research on this show About a lot of show biz history But I had never heard of the subway circuit

I think the Schubert's started it We rehearsed in the basement of one of the 42nd Street movie theaters. We were underneath, in other words, we were below the ground level. And the entrance to the big room that we rehearsed in, we had to go through the men's room of the theater to get to it. Great. It was semi-inspiring. Don't go away.

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Dan Melnick, who was a producer and the second in command of David Susskind's company, which was a production company for television films and anything else. Dan Melnick called me and Mel Brooks into his office and said, what are the two biggest successes in worldwide show business to do? day. Don't answer. I know you don't know the answer. I'll tell you. He would say to Mel and to me, Cluzo, Inspector Cluzzo, and James Bond. Put them together. What do you got? And we both Mel and I kind of said, say, say no more, we get it. And that was the start of it. And Don Adams was not on the radar originally. I'd heard you say Orson Bean and Tom Poston and you were looking at other people.

We had lists of available male performers. But Don Adams wasn't at the top list. Don Adams didn't come into the picture until you went from ABC to NBC? Yeah. It's funny because now it's hard to picture anyone else as Maxwell Smart. Oh, yeah. You can't have anyone do the voice. It's parody.

Right. And I heard that you are the one who invented the cone of science. It's true. That was for people who don't remember get smart that much. Maxwell Smart would always tell the chief, I think this calls for the cone of silence, and it would come down and it never worked. It was like a giant piece of plexiglass

with the two heads went into. And they'd start screaming at each other through the plexiglass, And each one was going, what? Max, it seems to me that... Just a minute, Chief. Isn't this top security? Yeah. Well, shouldn't we activate the cone of silence?

The cone of silence? Yes. All right, Max. Hodgkins. Yes, sir. Activate the cone of silence. The cone of silence? First of all, how much?

How much do you know about chaos? What did you say, sir? What? Chaos. Oh, chaos. Yes, of course. Well, that's an international criminal organization that was founded, oh, I think, in 1957. How's that?

What? Agent 57 is in Hong Kong. Hong Kong. What about Hong Kong? What? Hong Kong. Why are we talking about Hong Kong? What?

Hodgekins, raise the cone of silence. What? Raise the cone of silence! Perhaps we could just talk. softly, sir. You like the gadgets on the show, didn't you, Buck? You liked coming up with them.

I loved them. Now, who came up with the shoe phone? I think Mel did. I think it was his first thing he said. Take off your shoe and hold it to your ear. And Don looks at him and looks at me and with that look, how long do we have to endure this crap? That's funny.

Did ABC, I heard you say this in an interview, that ABC called the thought the show was un-American? They didn't get it. They didn't get what you guys were going for. The guy at ABC, whom we wrote the pilot for, summarily rejected it, said, we can't put this on in the evening when people are sitting down to have dinner.

You've got a long, a 10-minute-long garbage joke, rubber garbage. It was part of the plot, such as it were. And I heard that back there, Then the CIA used to call the producers of Get Smart and they'd ask them, where did these inventions come from? I don't know. That's news to me.

Oh, that's interesting. Can we ask you quickly, Buck, about Captain Nice, which is a show we Gilbert and I were very fond of. In fact, before you say anything, I remember from my childhood, look, It's the man who flies around like an eagle. Look, it's the man who hates all that's illegal? Who is this man with arms built just like hammers? It's just some nun who flies around in pajamas. That's no nuts, son.

That's Captain Nice. I'm appalled that you know this song. Someone has to pass it on to future generations. Paul. I'm honored. Vic Mizzy and Jerry Fielding, two talented guys. That show had a great cast. I mean, William Daniels, Alice Ghostley, you put Byron Fulger in there.

Yes. And who was the girlfriend? Didn't he have a girlfriend? Anne Prentice. It was Richard's sister-in-law. All his kid's sister. Right, right. And then that went on opposite Mr. Terrific.

Yeah, the CBS came up with its own. That was a really dirty trick and stupid. Yeah, both the superhero parodies playing against each other. That had John McGiver on it, as I recall, that show. John McGover. He, I think, was... Yes, sir, I haven't had a port mission to St. George. This is very dangerous, very dangerous indeed.

Buck's laughing. Have you ever seen anybody do John McGiver, Buck? I've never even seen John McGiver do John McGiver. But I don't have to now. I can just call over and say, do that guy that I never heard of before, and he will. Good. I remember, oh, the theme song, to Mr. Terrific. It didn't have words, but it was, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

Now you're just torturing him. Tell, let's talk about, Buck, some of the screenplays, and we talked about them in the intro. First, I just want to ask about Catch 22, which is a movie we've discussed here on this show. I just told you we just had Richard Benjamin here. And you say when you do an adaptation for something like that, that you want to please the author. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And He liked the picture.

He liked what you did with it. He told me he did. Mm-hmm. Doesn't mean he really did. He told me he did, and we had an eminently sensible conversation about it. Because it's not an easy book to adapt, I'm sure. It's impossible. Yeah.

And you did the screen version of Day of the Dolphin. Napoli, yes. Yeah, not a project he enjoyed writing. Yeah, that was with George C. Scott. Mike Nichols. Yes. And you didn't like the book to begin with. I thought the book was silly.

I don't mind silly. In fact, sometimes silly can be a whole movie. But in this case... But you did it to work with Mike and to spend a little time on that island. On a lot of islands. Yeah. And just getting back to Catch 22 for a minute, I heard you tell a very interesting story about Orson Wells,

and Richard was regaling us with stories about meeting Orson. But what was that business where he had 54, people and 25-foot people? Orson told us early on, like the first day he was there, he was describing his technique for getting things done. And a lot of, as he said, is not wasting time. It's just knowing how to not waste any more time than you have to. And what was the bit about the people that fell into the different categories?

He said, well, there are all sorts of people who want to talk to me every day. When you're shooting, I'm sure the same thing. So very early, like the first day of production, one of my production assistants and I go off somewhere and we write a list of all the guys working on the show that have any reason to interface with me. And I tell them there's just too many people want to talk about it eats most of the day up. So what do you want us to do? He said, well, I'm going to do what I've done with every show I've done for the past 20 years. years. That little guy, Ben, with the irritating voice, he's a 50-yard person.

What do you mean? He can't come nearer to me than 50 yards. What are we supposed to do? We're supposed to put down lines? I get a football field. And Arson says, yes. And what are the others? So he had a list of 50-yarders that were way out there and had he yell their questions to him. That's fantastic. There were 25-yarders, and there were five-yarders. And how did the graduate come about? How did it come about?

Yeah. Well, how did it find its way? How did the job of adapting Charles Webb's novel find its way into your hands? Mike said to me one day, have you read this book? And I said, yes, because I had. And I didn't want to lie that early. So, and I had read it. I thought it was terrific.

It's somewhat simple. And I mean that in the nicest sense. Because I always add this little codicil to that speech. Because both Larry Terman, the producer, who bought the book and brought it to Mike, and Mike and I, we both totally identified with Benjamin, the protagonist of the book,

and subsequently of the film. One of the things, It's interesting about it, is Nichols' boldness in casting Dustin Hoffman. They originally wanted Robert Redford. No, Mike wanted Robert Redford. Yeah. The studio, I didn't hear anything. Groden gave a convincing audition, didn't he, Charles Grotin?

Groden was brilliant, as he always is. Always brilliant, yeah. Love him in heaven can wait, too. Yeah. Which you also wrote. But it's interesting, too. And there's a wonderful vanity fair a piece about the making of the graduate and that Hoffman thought he was all wrong for it from the very beginning. He kept saying, what am I doing out here?

I'm a New York actor. I'm a Jewish guy from New York. I should be on the stage. But Nichols was looking for an underdog quality that Redford didn't bring to the table. I remember Nichols said in an interview, he said he met with Robert Redford. And he said, have you ever not gotten laid? Right. Right. Have you ever struck out with a girl?

Yeah. And he said, what do you mean? Right. And he knew then he was going with Dustin Hoffman. Right. Right. But it was still kind of brave to cast someone like that or someone who was the, I guess the feeling at the time was that someone so Jewish in a lead. Well. That it was it was a little bit innovative. Yeah. I don't think it was about Jewishness. So, I mean, they like to say it was because it made for good jokes.

I see. You think God is a Chinaman? You know, Dustin was very good at making fun of himself. Well, he's so great in the film. You want to tell Buck about how you lost a part to Dustin Hoffman? Oh, yes. Years ago, I auditioned for Warren Beatty in the new Dick Tracy. And he was telling me, oh,

you're perfect for this. You definitely, we want you when we were writing this. We just had you in mind. And so then I was already secure that I had the part. And then after a month or so, my agent calls and says, oh, they're going with someone else. And I said, who? And he goes, Dustin Hoffman.

And I thought, when were they actually, when was I running neck and neck with Dustin Hoffman for a part. It's kind of like, I always say, the only way my name and Dustin Hoffman's name could be in the same sentences, I've seen Gilbert Gottfried's acting and he's no Dustin Hoffman. Or I've seen who's the other person in this formula? Well, as Warren Beatty? He also lost a part to Billy Barty.

which you would appreciate. He was too short. Yeah. And also when they hired Dustin Hoffman. Who's they? And then the studio. Oh, right, for the graduate. They hired Dustin Hoffman.

And then a short while later, the godfather comes out with Al Pacino. And then there was De Niro. Oh, that godfather. Yeah. Yeah. And at the time, De Niro Hoffman and Pacino, the press was calling them the ugly actors. They weren't really ugly, but they weren't like... Missfits.

Yeah. Missfits, yeah. They weren't like beautiful, like Paul Newman or something. Like we are. Yes. You had a shot, Gil. You had a shot to be a leading man in the 70s. I see you and Redford and the Reefat.

remake of the sting. And I'm willing to work on it for very little money. I look forward to that one. You're in the Robert Shaw part, though, Gil. Yes. That's a great idea, Buck. Since we brought up Groden, can we talk a little bit about Heaven Can Wait? Sure.

So Beatty approached you and said, let's remake. Here comes Mr. Jordan. Is that how that came together? More or less, yeah. But I think he probably pumped it up with names and things. He was going to get, first he was going to, I said, well, who do you get to play Mr. Jordan? Who do you get to replace the greatest voice in films today? Which was.

Claude Raines. Claude Raines. Right. Women sitting in the theater would cry when he began to speak. Claude Raines, really? Oh, yeah. Wow. And I heard originally they wanted Carrie Grant in the remake and having the remit.

Oh, well, they would take anyone who was famous, what do they care? If Warren and he could sweet talk a really famous actor and they're playing a part, you think they're going to say no? Sure. And, yeah, and Mason was great in that part. Yes. Wonderful. Mason is the next great voice.

Yeah. Go ahead. Favor him, Favor him, Gil. Here you go, Buck. Joe, from this point on, you're not going to have any memory. So we could have had Gil by doing it.

You could have saved a buck on James Mason. It was our arrangement, Joe. Pretty good, huh? Yeah, you could have looped it all afterwards anyway. You've got a loop, James Mason. How is directing a movie with Warren Beatty? How does that work exactly since you both, since you shared directing credit? Well, you forget.

People tend to forget that hundreds, possibly thousands of films, have been directed by more than one person. Right. And in some cases, more than two. Right. But how did you guys, was that a necessity because he was in almost every scene? It certainly made things easier that there was always someone to stand behind the camera. Great cast, not just Mason, but Diane Cannon.

On Jack Warden. And John, the great Jack Warden. Yeah, one of Gilbert's favorite actors that we talk about. Do you have any memories of Warden or Mason? Anything specific come to mind? Didn't Dick tell you the funny stories about him and who else was in Last of Sheila? Oh, Raquel Welch. Raquel and a couple of others.

And Diane Cannon again. Yeah. Right. James was not happy about being stuck on a relatively small boat for two or three months. And the women drove him nuts. Why were they getting to him? I think the third actress was Joan Hackett. There were noisy, self-centered women.

He didn't like the sound of their voice. He just turned to Dick one day, practically in the middle of a tape. and said, Richard, well, you can do it. Richard, you know, I think our next film should be a prison film, man's prison. On a rock somewhere where the food is crappy and there's no makeup. I remember Warren Beatty saw me. He and Dustin Hoffman saw me at Catcher Rising Star. in New York.

They must have been researching Ishtar. Oh, yes. Yeah. And Warren Beatty became a fan of mine for like about a month. Listen, not bad. It's tough to find superstars with really long, fill it in, ways to think about something for long periods of time. It's nice that he was a fan for a month. Yeah, that was flattering.

Give Buck just a little more James Mason, because he's. was enjoying that oh okay here's james mason and um what you might call it oh a star is born congratulations my dear i seem to have made it just in time i had a speech i'll prepare in my head but it seems to have gone out of it well look there's no need to be formal i I know most of you men on a first name basis. Well, the point of my speech is I need a job. Yes, that's it. I need a job.

I'm not confined to drama. I could do comedy as well. What do you think, Buck? I think we set in motion a redo of all of James's great films. And Gilbert will be the voice of James and maybe a couple other people. Do you do Streisand? You do Streisand. Gilbert an odd man out.

You told a story. You were playing a joke on Dave Garroway and Barbara Walters. Oh, well, that was with Alan Abel when they did the... That was the sinner. That was the Society for Indecency to Naked Animals. No one understands that appellation, and I don't much understand it myself. You said that at one point, Robert Walters, she thought it was an actual group. Oh, absolutely.

She fell for it. But thousands did. And she started to argue very seriously and slowly, and she started to say, now, I'm, okay. Let me quote it exactly, so the point doesn't get mixed. up. So Barbara Walters is a guest on the show and a gorgeous little yummy French starlet called Milane de Mongeau. So she said, well, you're trying to dress these animals, but these animals are already dressed, Mr. Henry. Thank you for remembering my name and the gender. So she says, I have two, I don't know what she said, Newfoundland Terriers.

Is there such a thing? Something like that, yeah. And she said something else. At home. And when I first heard what you were doing, I took a look at them and I realized they don't need to be dressed. Men and women and animals are all dressed. Even I, if you were to know me better, even I have a big black. And I thought, oh my God, what is she going to tell us?

Do I dare interrupt now and never let her finish the sentence? That's great. Yes, she said, I have a big black hairy. And she paused. Yeah. And the cameras began to shake because the guys were getting hysterical and couldn't control their hands. I worked with Barbara Walters for a couple of years, and I absolutely believe that she fell for that hook, light and sinker. It doesn't surprise me in the least.

Why do you call Richard Benjamin? I found this interesting, Buck, a boulevard deer. Am I pronouncing that right? Yes. Well, a boulevard deer was a kind of actor in my younger days. You knew exactly what kind of parts a boulevardier played and why he was called that. And he was defined by the parts he played. Well, what a Clifton Webb fall into that category?

Yes. Okay. I got you now. And maybe you don't remember. There's no reason you should. You're only 12 or 13 years old. Is that Clifton Webb started as a song and dance man and a great one. Why, I didn't know that.

Did you know that? No. That's good stuff. That's a surprise. And he danced and sang in the first meaningful thing I ever saw on Broadmo. What was that? It was a musical called A Thousand's Cheer. Oh, I'm familiar with that.

You were four years old, if I understand, correctly. I went to see it on my fourth birthday, in fact. There you go. There you go. That's weird that we pulled Clifton Webb out of the air. And Clifton Webb was in one of the first film adaptations of Titanic. Uh, yes. You're with Barbara Stanwick. He played a lot of captains.

Yeah. He liked to have the cap on. I remember in this one, the ship's going down. He puts his grandson into one of the light boats. And then later on, as Clifton Webb is standing there, the grandson is standing next to him saying, I wanted to stay with you. And he goes, I've never been more proud of you than I am at this moment.

Never heard you do Clifton Whet. Which is more than his acting teacher could say at this time. That's funny. Well, speaking of Benjamin, we just want to ask you quickly about Quark because we talked about it with Richard. And it's a show that a lot of people, I know you said it had problems and it was mishandled in a way. And it turned into a Star Trek parody instead of the satire, the science fiction satire that you intended it to be. But even now, a lot of people have a lot of fondness for it. I know. I'm always surprised.

I'm surprised that people have funness for anything up to it, including their wives and children, but not their pets. It had a great cast. It had Richard. It had Tim Thomerson, Conrad Janice. I mean, very funny people. And you were ahead of a lot of shows now in the show. That was the week that was. it was better than people remember because it was so bad-mouthed. Political satire has a tough road to hole. Sure. And it was preempted a lot, wasn't it? Endlessly by Republican announcements.

Right, because obviously there was a show they were threatened by. And now it's like so common to see political comedy. But back there isn't any show without it. Yeah. And I remember just the first two lines, and that was, That was the week that was It's over Let It Go

It's an impossible song But she did brilliant stuff with it Who was this singer Nancy The hell was her name Oh yeah I know Beautiful blonde with a formidable body And long blonde hair

I remember Phyllis Newman Yeah that was not Phyllis. No, I remember Bob Dissie, Phyllis Newman. What was her name? I know you, Tom Lera was on that show, for God's sake. Tom Lera wrote those lyrics. Yeah. Tom Lira was the one. He used to be on Channel 13, like PBS all the time, because he had that show in Washington. Political satire. Yeah. And Gardner and Caruso were writers on that show, right Buck? Yes. Two guys, you again, you worked with it, get smart. I heard you say a lot of those episodes were just erased and taped over. That was the week that was. And it's hard to find them. Well, because the Museum of Broadcasting

was sweet enough to unearth as many clips of that was the week that was that they could find. And I said, well, what do you got? Yeah, I'll show up, but what do you got? I like to know what I'm going to be watching. They said, well, we've got so and so and so and so and so and so and. and they named a whole bunch of stuff that I wasn't sure I wanted to see it again. But I did. I watched it all one evening. It was fun to watch again. I'll bet.

See all my friends. See who was still apparently alive. They disappeared. People taped, they were taped over in those days, like the old Carson shows. They weren't saved. They weren't preserved. I have more Carson shows with me on it than Carson's got. You did a lot of Carson.

I did a lot. I did 40 some odd, I think. Wow. Ridiculous. And you were one time talking about how writers, even throughout the 60s were, they had, there was a heavy influence and a shadow from the House of Un-American Activities. Oh, yeah, well, everyone was conscious. As soon as the first two or three guys lost their careers and then one or two lost their marriages and their lives that was when they were accusing people in show business of being communist like writers actors singers oh sure zero mustel and martin writ and a lot of people Dalton trumbo yeah my screenwriting most of them got their revenge in having a late career that was as good if not better than any career they would have had under ordinary circumstances. It's easy for me to say, I don't know if

it's true, but I say a lot of things that I don't know if they're true when I'm forming them in what's left of my brain. Buck, we'll wind it down. But I just wanted to ask you, if you worked with so many characters, people like John Cassavetes and Nicholas Rogue and Belushi and you have any memories of these people or Brando working with Brando on candy oh that's that's a long dense chapter i'll bet i'll bet i'll bet you never thought to write a memoir huh about some have and i'm in the process of doing it oh good wonderful yeah that's good news candy was a weird film yes it was but a great cast yeah and you could substitute a lot of words for weird in that I'm just going to ask you one question that came for you from one of our listeners.

A guy named Robert Schloider wanted to know. He said, please ask Buck how much, I know Buck was a sight reader. Ask Buck how much of Samurai Delicatessen was scripted versus improvised. Do you remember? It's all, it's all of the, there were, there were ten of them that I did. Mm-hmm. I don't think anyone else did them. No, I don't think so.

John did the character only when I was there to back it up with my nebishy dope that never I like the fact that I never could remember from one event to the next that this guy was going to chop off my arm I'd think I would have worn you know a complete suit of armor

going into that deli Hey, listen, you do really fantastic work. That is gorgeous. Can you do me one little favor? Could you trim away some of the fat? I distinctly said no fat. There's a lot of fat hanging off. I read the meat fat, and it's a...

What's your? Hey, oh, no, wait a matter. Oh, don't take it personally. It's okay. Look, I probably... I probably shouldn't be eating that anyway. because it's filled with spices it gives me heartburn and what the hell you only live once i'll deal with a pain later would it be uh would it be too much to ask if you could cut it in half

That's absolutely beautiful. Thank you very much. That's terrific. One other thing. Would you bet? Do you think you could break a 20? Yeah. And then in Samurai Stockbroker, you were actually injured on set.

Oh, yeah. I guess I have more questions about that than anything else I've ever done. That's weird that so many people ask you about that. Well, I guess it was dramatic to see if you weren't prepared for it, you didn't know what was going to happen. Suddenly, I'm ducking away from a prop, and then my leg is, my pants are shredded and my leg is bleeding. You remember this kill? Belushi hit him with the sword. And then didn't you, you were walking around with a bandage on your face.

Well, because it was SNL, there were doctors in the house, including Belushi's, personal doctor. So Belushi spent a lot of the five-minute wait while the commercials were being shown sidling up to Lauren and saying, you know, I know all the dialogue in Buck's next piece if you wanted to sit him down somewhere and treat that leg because he's bleeding right through his pants. And Warren didn't pay any attention to that because he knew me and he knew John. Right. But you were such a pro that you went on with the scene and you had to, you had to, in the stockbroker, you had to run through the wall. Yeah.

Everybody got better and better and better because there were five open minutes where we could do whatever we felt like. There was two long commercials and something else. And when we came back to live, Chevy was doing the news of the update and he was in a shoulder harness as though he'd broken his shoulder, a rib or two, and his arm.

And as the evening wore on, and it wore, when the next hour was done, everyone in the studio had Band-Aids, bandages. Right to remember. All the guys on the cameras, it was. That's a great thing about live television. Yes. The great thing about hiring people over the long haul. Just funny. Send me funny.

I'll worry about the rest of it. Right. Now, there was a story. I told it on the show. and I asked Tim Conway about it, and he confirmed it about Pat McCormick and helicopter. Yeah, it's a true story, but I doubt that he told you all of it. There's more to it. Well, tell me then.

There's actually more to this story. Well, many of us have wives or girlfriends, and we jeopardize them by telling this story. I see. We don't want them to push on the spot. And we have contracts. Some do in various places. Yeah. And there are morals clauses everywhere.

Yeah. I had heard Pat McCormick and his showbiz pals, most of them writers, would like to get together and outdo each other. Each one would take turns taking the other ones out to lunch. Hosting, yeah. Yeah. And each one would do it by. like a bigger restaurant and fancier things. And then Pat McCormick has everyone...

I don't want to interrupt, but let me just add bits and pieces. Oh, okay. McCormick was the first one up. I think Missouri or someone chaired the meeting and said, okay. Paul Muserski. Yeah, this is going to cost somebody some money. Who dares go first? time McCormick was flat on the table screaming and yelling with his hands in the air and I'm saying

yeah I vote for Pat everybody voted for Pat and uh so he went up first in the helicopter McCormick well it's more complicated than that okay by first time and he he said yes I'll take the first lunch of the month and we thought it can't be better than this we're all all screwed, actually, because McCormick will put us all in the toilet, which he proceeded to do. Shall I tell you how? Yes. It's a story that's been around for some years anyway.

So we were all working for various television shows we were writing. I was writing for who was I writing for? I can't remember. Gary Moore's show or was it that far back? No. No. I think I was writing for Steve. Uh-huh.

And McCormick and Missourski, there are good stories here. We're writing for Danny Kaye in his show. Right. And then I heard everyone was invited to a heliport. No. No. Limos came and picked all of us up at our various places of work. So we got reports later of this mysterious long black limo sidling into the parking area of where I was at ABC on Vine.

The others were on more expensive properties, I think. Where were you working, Gilbert, at that time? He would have joined you happily. Oh, but when you hear the rest of it, there's no one in this room who wouldn't. join me happily. So we're driven by these limousines. We're not told anything. And when we ask questions of the driver, the driver would turn around and say, oh, we're not allowed to speak out loud, sir. Okay. And McCormick, when he wanted to, could really look threatening because he was, what, six foot six, would you say? Yeah, something like that. And 300 and something

pounds. Were you a little scared Wallace was going on? Not yet. And we were driven in our limos out on the field at L.A.X. One of those private fields. And we were the guy gunned the limo and squealed up as near as he could get to this big helicopter. Everyone out. The three, I think there were three limos. There might have been four. or we could hear our friends.

Everyone was a comedy writer. And they're screaming punchlines at us. It was a game in which they yelled, you yelled the punchline. Somebody immediately made up the joke that had the punchline. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, I spent the weekend with Eleanor Roosevelt, but I got to say this about her.

When she isn't doing this, she's doing that, you know, something really nasty. I was assaulted. for it in the next couple of days after we did this show. And somebody said, lay off him. It's a joke. They're just jokes. Nobody was killed for a joke.

Well, those of us like me, historians in the group, I should have come up with five rejoiners, but I couldn't. Gilbert, you're fast and funny and you're a compendium of oddball facts. He is. What should I have said? I say the least. I've never heard that. That's the most flattering description.

Odd and funny enough. I could have condensed it. You're a polymath. Isn't he? Yes. Look it up if you think I've insulted you. Now, but I heard when you got to the airport, you were all given a paper bag with like an apple and a tuna sandwich.

we were given yeah we were given a box a carton with lunch in it I don't know where McCormick picked up this rapidly rotting food but they were looking at this like what the fuck is this this is our great lunch our gourmet lunch yeah so we all have our little lunch boxes and I guess there was some beverages probably some of a boozy ability but mostly just soft drink. And then there were a couple of figures that we didn't recognize. We didn't think they were prominent comedy writers.

Because they looked and dressed like prominent hookers. Which, of course, is what they were. So this had taken a lot of research on Merski's part. He had all our home addresses, which he gave in the order that he wanted, he gave them to the pilot, and each in kind the chopper would fly over and hover over our house while one of the girls serviced us.

So it's true, all these years later. And I heard the ending was that one of the writers when he got home. he uh his wife said you know so how is your night and he goes you know okay and then he goes how was your night and she said it was okay but there was a helicopter circling the house and it sounded like somebody was swallowing This is an historic moment in the history of this show. Buck Henry is confirming the helicopter, the Pat McCormick helicopter story. I've told that story a bunch of times, but, boy, to get it from an eyewitness is amazing.

Mouth witness. What? It's showbiz history. How, what percentage of the people you've taken. told it to believe you. Believe that the anecdote was real. We discussed it with Ronnie Schell. Who else?

Ronnie was one of our group. There you go. He confirmed. I remember I once met Tim Conway and I walked over to him and I said, I heard a story. It's probably bullshit about Pat McCormick. And he goes, helicopter. Yeah, there was a shorthand for all of these indecencies that helped us get through the day. Fantastic.

You know, we all had to go home and face our nearest and dearest. All of them would say, so what happened? What was the big deal? Where did you all go? And what did you all do? Wonderful. Buck, we can't thank you enough for this. It's been a hugely satisfying point.

pleasure, but I can't think why. Is Alan Abel still with us? He's a funny guy. He is still with us. We should talk to him. Oh. And he's still got the same wife. His daughter, his adorable daughter, has had a child of her own. So Alan's got a grandchild.

Oh, that whoever thought that his jeans would stretch over more than a half a generation. Very clever fellow. Very clever. Yeah. Yeah. We got to find Alan Abel. He's got to have stories. This was great.

Oh, this was a lot of fun. We covered a lot of ground, Buck. But there's a lot of ground to cover. And we ended with filth. Which I think is always important. If the Senate and the House would end their sessions with instead of a prayer, 10 minutes of filth. Of the aristocrats. It'd be a better world.

I guess we'll start wrapping up. Yeah, we'll let Buck get to it. Buck, does the memoir have a title? A working title? No. No. We hope the helicopter story turns up in there somewhere. I am so thrilled you told that story.

Yeah, I can't remember who else we told it to. Well, several people. I don't, maybe it was Norman Lear, maybe. I can't remember. You know, you know about? You know about Pat's untowable jokes? Oh, go ahead. We don't.

There's a long list of them. There are jokes that he invented and wrote that cannot be told in a public forum. So, I mean, I thought about it all the time I was watching Gilbert's dirty joke movie, which I love. Wow. Isn't that nice? Buck, thank you. That's Gilbert Gottfried Dirty Jokes. My DVD.

I'm telling you, folks, if you want to laugh, that's the one that'll make you laugh, long and loud. So Buck did research on you. Yes, and to get a plug from Buck Henry on it, I can't ask for a better endorsement. How nice. Yeah, Gilbert Gottfried Dirty Jokes. You can get it on gilbert Gottfried.com. Well, we turn the mics off, Buck. You're going to have to tell us where we can get our hands on some of those McCormick jokes.

If I can figure out what the answer is, you'll be the first. and the only to know. Okay. Okay. We appreciate. We appreciate that. We didn't ask you about what's up, Doc, or to die for a movie that I love, or lots of other stuff. But there's a lot, there's a lot of ground to cover. But we covered a fair amount of it. I met a guy, by the way, the other night at a party who said he wrote episodes of Captain Nice. His name is Arnold Margolin. He's Stuart Margolin's brother. Oh, wow. Well, it sounds possible.

Yeah There you go He wrote Captain Nice Thought maybe you'd remember him It's been a long time Anyway we got to get these We got to get these Pat McCormick jokes We were in the nightclub

Listing and McCormick do some nonsense And somebody Maybe me said Pat tell them the joke that you told me Night before last That made that person faint and he say it's a question Well there are two of them

One is a question and answer a joke What's the difference between a dead baby and a bathtub And people look scared At the stage Some people start walking out But it starts with a crawl And it's like the ages of man They crawl from their chair

Toward the door And then they sort of get up and knee crawl and then two hands and two feet and then they're running in the distance. What is the difference, Pat, between a dead baby and a bathtub? You can't fuck a bathtub. I think it's a great example of classic on the spot. Wow. It kept me happy for a couple of years.

And then I was staying in the Warwick Hotel trying to finish the script for Owl and the Pussy Cat. And George Siegel came and joined me and we went, we were going up in the elevator to see somebody. I can't remember McCorme had gotten the same. We all came in from the lobby, Pat and George and me. were in the elevator and there is a family of tourists and they see George and I think they're going to faint

I mean the women that's a movie star they they look at McCormick and then looked away and they said something like are you like an actor and he said something funny and they said no I know you're a comic are you at a club or anything and it was dirtier than the one I've already told you Oh, wow.

God. Now I desperately want to hear. There's also that story of him giving directions where he opens his fly. It's not him. It's Jonathan Winners. Oh, it's Jonathan Winners. How about that? He did it first and maybe last because everyone else was scared to.

He's standing at a bar and a woman says she wants to get to the moon rock, but she doesn't know how to get there. not the moon right there was a place a nightclub restaurant called moon garden or something like that he said oh i know where it is i've been there and she said can you draw me a little map she he said well i'll give you a better way to remember to remember it and he opened his pants pulled out his dick lay it in the palm of his hand and ran his hand along the blue uh vein so you go up here to sunset go right here on

Sunset Boulevard you're going toward Malibu here Jonathan Winters that's great see you correct you corrected us we were told it was Pat McCormick

well I think he told Jonathan he gave Jonathan the joke Oh I see It's more fun with Jonathan I think Knowing that there weren't too many people in the world who would say Oh yeah I'll do that but Jonathan was one of them.

Wonderful. Well, Gil? Oh, okay. Buck, we enjoyed this. Thank you so much. So did I. A lot of fun. It was a pleasure.

And thank you for that compliment. I can't get over that. Where do you see his documentary? You'll like that too. I'm sure I will. So this has been Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast with my co-hosts, Frank Santopadre, and our guest, has been a guy who, well, what hasn't he done?

Writer, producer, director, actor, he's done it all. The great Buck Henry. And he was Lord Dushback. Yes. And always will be. Well, we wanted to get you here for a long time. We've done 160 of these, and this was a thrill. So thanks.

Thanks, guys. We look forward to that memoir. Okay, Frank, you'll be one of the first or second to get a copy. I hope so. And when we get off the mic, we're going to demand more Pat McCormick jokes. Thank you, Buck. And thanks, thanks Alan's White Bell, too. And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson.

Jesus loves you more than you will know. Whoa, whoa. God bless you, please, Mrs. Robinson. Heaven falls a place for those who pray. Hey, hey, hey. We like to run a little bit about you for our lives We like to help you know to help yourself Look around you all you see are sympathetic eyes

Stroll around the grounds Until you feel at home And here's to you Mrs. Robinson, Jesus loves you more than you will know. Whoa, whoa, whoa. God bless you please. Mrs. Robinson, heaven holds a place for bones to pray.

Hey, hey, hey, hey. Gilbert Godfried's amazing colossal podcast is produced by Dara Godfried and Frank Sontapadre, with audio production by Frank Verde Rosa. Our researchers are Paul Rayburn and Andrea Simmons. Web and social media is handled by Mike McPadden, Greg Pair, Nancy Chanchar, and John Bradley Seals. Special audio contributions by John Beach. Special thanks to John Murray, John Fodiatis, and Nutmeg Creative, especially Sam Giovonko and Daniel Farrell for their assistance. Thank you.