Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Dennis Lambert Encore

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

GGACP marks the 50th anniversary of the Four Tops hits, "Ain't No Woman (Like the One I've Got)" and "Are You Man Enough?" (from "Shaft In Africa") with this ENCORE of a 2019 interview with Grammy-nominated songwriter Dennis Lambert ("One Tin Soldier," "Nightshift," "Don't Pull Your Love"). In this episode, Dennis discusses working the Catskills as a boy singer, shopping songs in the Brill Building era, producing hit records for the Righteous Brothers and co-creating the oft-maligned Starship hit, "We Built This City." Also, Neil Diamond hawks holiday tunes, Carole King demos "One Fine Day," Gilbert "covers" Glen Campbell (!) and Dennis becomes a superstar in the Philippines. PLUS: Freddie and the Dreamers! The artistry of Levi Stubbs! The versatility of Steve Lawrence! "Billy Jack" gets a message from God! And Dennis breaks down the construction of a Top 10 hit! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I'm alright Nobody but about me Why you got to give me a fight? Can't you just let it be? Hi, this is Kenny Loggins And you're listening to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing,ossal Podcast. I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santopadre, and our engineer, Frank Verderosa. Frank Santopadre and our engineer Frank Verderosa. And our guest this week is a musician,

recording artist, and Grammy-nominated record producer and songwriter who's responsible for some of the most popular pop and rock hits of the last 50 years. Some of the songs he's written, co-written, or produced include Wanting Soldier, Don't Pull Your Love, Ain't No Woman Like The One I Got, Keeper of the Castle, Two Divided by Love, Rock and Roll Heaven, Rhinestone Cowboy, We Built This City, Baby Come Back, It Only Takes a Minute, City, Baby Come Back, It Only Takes a Minute, Night Shift, just to name a few. He's also produced records for or had his songs covered by a who's who of 20th century musicians, including The Four Tops, Dusty Springfield, Jerry Lee Lewis, Glen Campbell, The Temptations, The Commodores, Tony Bennett, Johnny Mathis, Jefferson Starship, Kenny Loggins, The Righteous Brothers, The Moody Blues, and Santana. His songs have been sampled by Tupac Shakur and Jay-Z. And get this, he even worked with Burgess Meredith.

He did. He's had over 75 songs on Billboard's Top 100 chart, including number one records on the pop, R&B, hip-hop, rap, country, jazz, and dance charts. His songs have received 11 Grammy Award nominations, and at one time, four of his songs appeared simultaneously on Billboard Hot 100, a feat previously accomplished only by The Beatles. Please welcome to the podcast a man who's composed over 600 songs, yet another brilliant songwriter from Brooklyn and a folk hero in the Philippines, the multi-talented Dennis Lambert.

Hi. Dennis. What an intro. I feel like doing Jack Benny. Oh, Dennis. Yes, I know. Welcome, Dennis Lambert. Thank you.

Thanks. I'm happy to be here. Now, we have to get to your biggest crime of your career. And that's you wrote the song, We Built This City on Rock and Roll. With others. Yes. Yes. Yes.

It took an army to write that one. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes, it took an army to write that one. Yeah, and like Blender called it the worst song of all time and said it was a reflection of what practically killed rock music in the 80s. Screw Blender. Well, they're not here anymore, and I'm still 10. That's right.

That's true. Blender is defunct and Dennis rocks on how did that come about the song yes it was an interesting story and it's unusual in the

sense that it came to me as a demo by one of my friends who had written songs with and he was doing some work with Bernie Taupin, and he brought me this song because he knew that I was producing the Starship, and he thought it would be a good song. He brought me several songs, and this particular song just had something about it that was very haunting and very interesting. And it was mostly in the lyric. It didn't really have a commercial structure.

It didn't sound anything like the record we made. But there was something about the body of the song that was compelling. So I asked, Martin Page was his name, my friend, if he and Bernie would consider doing a bit of a rewrite because when I had played it in the original form for Grace Slick and the group and Mickey, they sort of were attracted to it, but they recognized that it wasn't a commercial-sounding song.

It was a dark, kind of a brooding demo. You can hear the demo. It's on SoundCloud. I heard it today for the first time. Very brooding and esoteric. Yes, absolutely. So Martin said, let me talk to Bernie. I don't think he's going to go for that.

That's not like his thing. I said, okay, you know, just hopeful that he'll let you do it or that he'll take a shot. You know, it's more musically that it needs some shaping than it is lyrically. So he came back to me a few days later and he said, you know, Bernie's not into doing that, but if you want to take a shot at it, as long as we have the right to approve it, then we'll let you do it.

And I talked to Peter Wolfe, who was my good friend and co-producer, and I said, Peter, do you want to take a shot at this? Because Martin and Bernie don't want to. I said, there's no promise. We don't know if we'll wind up doing anything they'll like. I said, there's no promise. We don't know if we'll wind up doing anything they'll like. And if they do, there's no deal made in advance that we're going to be writers on the song. We just have to do it on good faith. And our interest was getting a good song for the group.

So if we didn't wind up as co-writers, it would have been okay. That had happened to me once before. I did some work on a song and didn't get any credit and didn't ask for any. So we did. We just reshaped it. We turned it into the song You Know, and we had this vision of it being a very in-your-face,

tightly produced, commercial-sounding song, which we thought was not doing an injustice to what was there. We liked it. We liked it perhaps better than the original. And when they heard it, they weren't thrilled with it because it was so in-your-face commercial, but they said, okay, and then they talked to us about what they felt we should have as a share,

and we said, fine. And that was the end of it. We then recorded it. And it was a big hit. A big hit. A monster hit. Monster hit, yeah. How did Grace, I heard she asked you in a way that was like, hey, I'm getting older.

Grace Slick. Yeah. Yeah. I just want some money to put away. She wanted a hit song, didn't she? Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Well, they'd come very close with the prior Starship album,

and they made some noise. They had a couple of records on the charts. They just didn't have a major breakthrough, and they were looking for that, obviously, and certainly Mickey Thomas was such a great singer. Sure. The two of them were very dynamic as vocalists. So, yeah, Grace said, you know, I'm getting older.

I don't think anybody 60 should be in a rock and roll band. She was very clear about that. And she said, I paint, you know, this is my passion, and I want to have some big hits. I want to tour for a couple of years, make a bunch of money and then pack it in. And those were my marching orders. So when I brought the reshaped We Built This City along with other songs we brought to them, they were very positive about it. And they reacted very strongly and said, let's do this.

it and they reacted very strongly and said let's do this i read an interview with bernie and he said that that you and and uh and peter were smart to do what you did with that song to take it from an esoteric non-commercial song and make it a hit and said he he feels like he owes you guys for helping put his kids through college i don't think he needed that. But I appreciate that, yeah. Yeah, I mean, he understands. And we've had a few songwriters on and a few others who've worked at the Brill Building, and a lot of times they seem to have it scientific in their head. What is the sound of a hit? Do you have that in your head? Like, oh, if I put this and this and this,

this could be a hit. Oh, I don't know if I have it in a sort of formula, but in the earlier days of my career, at the peak of my career, which was probably 70s, 80s, I probably had a sense that if I came up with a good idea for a song that I could execute what would sound like a hit to most people. And that wasn't so much for the bravado, it made me feel very confident that I could bring my skills to artists that were looking to me to find them or write them great songs and and that gave me the the confidence that I could do that I was saying Gilbert before we turn the mics on weren't you and Brian known for being the in part among other things being known for the guys you go to when your career has sort of hit a lag to bring them back, to get them another hit. I guess that was part of it.

You did a lot of that with the Righteous Brothers, with Starship in the case you just gave us. Yes, I think when you do that, the industry takes notice and they think, well, these guys are like the doctors. You know, they can fix a problem we did it with the four tops who had been a little bit cold sure sure yeah and and then as you say with you know later on i did it with starship to some extent although they were they were certainly in the mainstream and having uh reasonably good acceptance at radio. But yes, the other people that you mentioned, for sure, they had stumbled a little. Glenn, he had been Glenn Campbell. Glenn Campbell.

Yeah, he'd been off the charts for three or four years. And you brought him his biggest hit. Yeah, he was incredible to work with. And can we go all the way back? When did you start? You started really young. Well, I started as a child performer, as a singer, and I worked primarily in the Catskills. I did it for four summers from age 10 to 14. By the time I got to be 14, I'd already been signed to my first record deal.

I was signed to the Tokens. They were the production company that signed me. They were making records not only for themselves, you know, Lion Sleeps Tonight and others, but they were producers and they were doing quite well. They had Randy and the Rainbows and a few other big acts and their own stuff. And they signed me. And that was really my introduction to the music business and what went on behind the scenes.

And I was smitten. I thought, this is it. I want to do this. And as much as I was pursuing a career as an artist I was equally interested in developing my skills

as a songwriter. I had a lot of music in my head. I just didn't have all the tools. And you weren't classically trained at all. No. I never even studied at all as a kid. Yeah, that's what's so fascinating. Yeah. And I think it's sweet.

Go ahead, Des. No, I was saying I had a lot of music in my system because I was going out with my charts under my arm and going to little places where there was a trio or a quartet, sometimes just a piano player, and I had to walk people through the arrangements and I had to know the music and know what happened where. And, of course, I had a repertoire of hundreds of songs that I could do

and I had charts probably for 50. So my act never got overly stale. I just kept switching things up. And when you were a kid in the Catskills, you had a bunch of songs that were certainly for an old Jewish performer, not so much for a kid. And an Italian performer. Yes.

Yes. In some cases. Can you give us a sample of some of those things you used to do in the Catskills to entertain the old crowd? Well, I mean, I did, you know, I told an occasional joke and I did songs in languages, mainly Yiddish, because that was primarily the audience. They were, you know, mostly Jewish people. They were mostly Jewish people, and they were mostly older people. They may not have been any older than the people that we confront now every day, but they seemed very old to me then.

I was so young. They were probably like my parents' and grandparents' age. But I would do Holidays, that song that Mickey Katz and Joel Gray had done. Can I please hear you sing some of it? Well, that was, let's see. Lots of folks say boys like me don't know from Yiddish kite. All we know is football, dances and the fights. But I've got news for all you folks who think I've gone astray.

My heart just bursts with pride at every Jewish holiday. Oh, I love basic. And then it was like a song about every Jewish holiday that you... We love that stuff, Dennis. Were you singing in Italian, too? Yeah. Femina, tu sei una malafemina. It was ridiculous, really, coming from a kid.

A kid, right. He's singing about an evil woman. You've scorned me. Right. So you were a little Jewish kid being an angry Italian grown-up. Well, you know, I don't know how angry I was. I was pleasing the audiences

by kind of spoon-feeding them the things that they liked. And, you know, like everybody loves dogs and animal acts and they love kids. Yeah. I think it's sweet, too, that your mom was a stage mom. And she never gave up on the idea. We talked about this on the phone. She never gave up on the idea of you being a star, of you being the next Paul Anka or the next Neil Diamond.

And she pushed hard. She drove you places. She was a promoter. She was you places. She was a promoter. She was an agent. She was a booker. That's right. She did all those things. And after I started writing and producing

and didn't really want to sing anymore, not in those venues and in that kind of music, she would still occasionally approach me with a gig that she felt i should do and and i think i might have talked to you about how i met don arden and peter grant oh yeah yeah yeah that's what that's what that's what led you to brian yeah yes well the sniffing court inn was a club in manhattan back in the 60s and uh i forget the guy's name he was he was a uh the owner of the club and very well liked and an important figure in that world you know that cabaret world at that time it's got to all

be gone now it is it is gone i'm sure but my mom said you know there are gonna be big managers there and big agents and you know you should go and do a set. I said, okay. I'd already been writing and I had my little office, but I went. And I did my little three-song set and the band was amazing. You know, they fake everything, but they knew the songs. And as I came off the stage, you know, these guys approached me and they were an odd-looking trio because one was a little short, rotund guy, that was Don Arden,

and then there was a big rotund guy, that was Peter Grant. Don Arden is Sharon Osbourne's father. Yes. That's right. And, you know, an incredible entrepreneur in the music world. Yes, he was. All through the 60s and 70s,

he managed so many of the big acts along with Peter. And then the third guy was a guy named Mark Wildey, who became a very close friend because he wound up moving to the States. And so over the years that followed, I spent time with Mark and he became a close friend. But Don, once he met me and Peter met me, they came up to my office. They listened to a few of my songs they took them back to england and two three weeks later they were flying me over

to make records with some of their artists and how old were you again 17 at that time is this when you wrote to the freddy for freddy and the dreamers yeah gilbert loves that one. Okay, okay. You got your piano ready. We have to do this. He wants to sing a couple of bars of Do the Freddy with you. Dennis, will you indulge him? Sure, but I do it in a little bit of a fancier, cooler, jazzier way. Okay. Okay, let's hear you sing it.

Well, I'm trying to make up for the fact that the song is really so bad. So I, you know... So I don't... Hear the happy feet Dancing to the beat Of the Freddy Put a guy in front Make a line in back, then you're ready. Kick your feet up, swing your arms up to move your head both ways like you see me do.

Then just repeat to the swinging beat, the freddy do the freddy i love it i love it hey not bad for 17 yeah looking back now you're critical of it but you're a teenager and that guy yeah it is what it is but i i thought at time, why not write a dance song for them? They had had I'm Telling You Now. Of course. Gilbert and I were just singing that one. Yeah, and they were all over TV, and people knew they did that crazy little dance. How Do You Do, what is the other one?

How Do You Do What You Do To Me. That was another one. That's right. And he looked like if it was like if Austin Powers and Jerry Lewis had a kid. Yeah, that's right. And the other three guys in the band looked like his bodyguards. Yeah. You know, they had black suits and little ties and they were kind of burly.

Yeah. Before we get to it, we'll continue with the part about you going to england and meeting your your eventual songwriting partner brian potter but i but we don't i don't want to lose this thread when you're in the caskills and we were talking on the phone do you remember some of the performers that were either on the same bill with you or that were passing through sure because we love this stuff sure well uh the biggest show i ever did was over a July 4th weekend, and it was at Grossinger's. You know, that's a major hotel. It was an important hotel, and it had a great reputation, and the people that Jenny Grossinger was a famous person for operating that hotel. Anyway, over the July 4th weekend, I don't know if it was 60 or 59, I worked with Eddie Fisher. Wow.

He was the headliner. And Juliet Prowse. Juliet Prowse, Gilbert, from South Africa. Yeah, African-American Juliet Prowse. That's right. And I was the opening act. I did a little short set. You know, they gave me a shot.

I think my mom got me that gig. She must have, you know, hucked Lily in until she couldn't carry her anymore. What about some of the comics? Do you remember any of these guys? Yes, of course. I worked with people like Mack Robbins. I don't know

if you remember. Do you know that name, Gil? Mack Robbins. I had to run that one by Cliff. He was a big comic in the Catskills in the 60s. I worked with Lou Menchel. Lou Menchel. Lou Menchel. That sounds familiar. Another popular comic at the time.

Dick Capri. Dick Capri. Oh, of course. We know Dick personally. Yeah. I might have worked. I thought I worked with Freddie Roman. Freddie Roman.

And talked about this because I've met him many times. Sure. And then I would see all the great comics in the shows that I went to. If I was going to go, my mom would say, you've got to do the late show at the New Roxy. I say, okay. Because it was a hotel with a great band. And they would let you come up and do a few songs at one in the morning in this bar.

And in those places, the comics would congregate sometimes. Buddy Hackett. Wow. And Freddie Roman and Jack Carter. Jack Carter. Wow. Did you see Myron Cohen or Corbett Monica? Corbett Monica, absolutely.

All of them. I didn't work with him, but I saw them all the time. Right. Yeah. That's great. And later on, it's so interesting how sort of things go around and come around. Years later, in the late 60s, when I moved to California and started my career there, I met Eddie Fisher.

I was producing him. So I did a record with him. And I go to his house to rehearse with him. And Don Costa was my mentor. The legendary Don Costa. Yeah, the legendary guy and an incredible talent. So he said, I want you to work with Eddie. And I had written a song for Eddie.

So Don said, go up to his house, get it set up, and rehearse with him, get ready, make sure he's prepared. And then you can cut the record with him. I said, great. Don said, I might do the chart, which I thought was incredible. So I go up to Eddie's house. It's up in the hills somewhere in Beverly Hills. And I ring the bell, and Connie i rang the bell and connie stevens

answers the door great with two babies and one's in a stroll fantastic and they were literally a year and a few months apart and and of course they were eddie and connie's kids right and so uh there began a lifelong friendship with Connie to this day. She's one of my dear friends. Oh, we love her. And she's such a great, great person and a great friend and a big talent on so many different levels. Yeah, yeah. And so there was my introduction to working with Eddie when I'd worked with him as a 13-year-old on one show.

Did he remember you? Not really. Yeah, okay. But I told him about that show, and he sort of vaguely remembered the show, but who knows? Do you remember anything about Eddie, what it was like to work with him?

Yes. I mean, he was lovely. He was sweet. He was not difficult, although I think he was struggling a little bit with his problems, even when I was working with him and he needed me when we were recording the vocals he wanted me to be out with him

next to him on mic and he wanted me to give him like a little tap when it was his time to come in with his line. So either he needed that extra support or he wasn't sure of the song and he needed me to remind him where he comes in. So I thought, well, that's a little odd, you know, but it turned out fine. And in the end, he did a nice performance and I'm proud I have an Eddie Fisher recording. Remember, performance and I'm proud I have an Eddie Fisher recording. Remember as a kid growing up in Brooklyn

I listened to Oh My Papa with my grandparents probably 500 times. Oh that's sweet. Okay I gotta ask you to sing Oh My Papa. What about? I'm sorry. He wants you to sing a little bit of it. Oh My Papa. Oh, I have to ask. He wants you to sing a little bit of it. Of Oh My Papa.

Oh my papa, to me he was so wonderful. Oh my papa, to me he was so good. That's it. Fantastic. Oh, wow. it's fantastic oh wow we will return to gilbert godfrey's amazing colossal podcast right after this that's what you say fan duel casinos exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling winning which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do.

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And now, back to our show. When did you start working with, we talked on the photo about Steve Lawrence, somebody we've wanted on this podcast since we started it five years ago and haven't had any luck. When did you work with, did you work with Steve and Edie separately or together? Well, separately, but at the same time. Okay. I wrote, I got to write a couple of songs with Michelle Legrand,

who I just loved. Oh, sure. Another legend. Legend and an incredible songwriter and i thought how am i getting an opportunity to write with him because i'm not necessarily known as a lyricist and if anything when people met me and brian potter they thought he's the english guy he doesn't sit at the piano like Dennis does. So he's probably the lyricist and Dennis is probably the music guy. But that really was not the case. Brian contributed a lot to our melodies and to our music, was a great sounding board, was a drummer. He understood music.

It was in his blood. And I was always a very proactive lyricist. I would never just hand it off to anyone. So where were we? Steve Lawrence. Right. Yeah, Steve and Audie. So okay, right. So Michelle Legrand, I get this call. Michelle Legrand would like to meet you.

I thought, wow, somebody, I forget exactly who, but I owe them a great debt, told him that I was a really good lyricist and I'd written a lot of hits. And he called me and I met with him. He said, I'm doing this small movie. And maybe that's why, because he didn't feel like he could call the Bergmans or someone much more famous that he'd worked with

because it was a very little project. Okay. He said, there's not much money in it, you know, whatever. I'm doing the score and I'm writing a couple of songs and I'd like you to work with me i said oh i would love to and he played me the melodies and they were michelle legrand gorgeous melodies and uh i took them and i wrote the lyrics came back and he loved them that was what was most important. I have to say it was one of the most nerve-wracking moments, singing him the songs, his melodies, my lyrics. And he played for me, and I'm singing with him,

and that was a trip unto itself. And he loved them, and he said, well, now we have to think of who we can get to sing them. And I said, well, I have some ideas. think of who we can get to sing them. And I said, well, I have some ideas. One of the songs was a song about New York in the 40s and 50s. And that was the song for Steve. And it was about what the movie was about, really.

The movie was called Falling in Love Again. And it was with Elliot Gould. Oh, I know that movie. Yeah, sure. It was a very quaint little love story. Oh, I know that movie. Yeah, sure. It was a very quaint little love story. Yeah, I know that flick. And I think Michelle Pfeiffer was like, it may have been her first movie.

If I'm not mistaken, she was in it. Anyway, I said, what about Steve Lawrence? Michelle loves Steve Lawrence. He said, that's a great idea. Do you know him? I said, I do, actually. And I had gotten to know Steve, became a friend. And he knew that he was one of my idols.

So was Edie. And then the other song was a ballad. And that was a female song. And I said, what about Edie for this? And he said, if you could get Edie for this, we'd have an incredible package. And I went to see them both, played them the songs. And he said, if you could get Edie for this, we'd have like an incredible package. And I went to see them both, played them the songs, and they said, let's do it.

Fantastic. So I produced both of the records for the soundtrack with them, and I got to work with my dear friends. What a Renaissance man he is. I mean, we were talking on the phone that he could do anything. Steve Lawrence. Absolutely. Good comedian, good actor, great storyteller.

That's why we wanted him here so badly. He always seemed like someone who didn't take himself too seriously. I think that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Great guy to be around. Warm and funny and just a beautiful guy.

And they used to be on TV constantly, Steve and Edie. Edie Gourmet, Neil Sedaka's cousin. Yes, yes. There's some extra trivia. We leap around, obviously. That's okay. You've caught on to that, Dennis.

And eventually we'll get to you and Brian meeting up in the UK and all the great hits that you guys produced. But talk about setting up shop that you decided. You were still a kid. You decided to go and open up an office at 1650 Broadway, a building only slightly lesser known than the Brill Building for these kind of songwriters. Who was in the building?

At that time. Yeah. At that time, it might have actually been a more popular building. Is that so? Than the Brill Building. Yeah, it might have been. The Brill Building had history that 1650 didn't have. It was a beautiful Art Deco building, and 1650 was not.

But when I started showing up there and opened my little office there, which was in the early 60s. That's where Don Kirshner and Al Nevins. That's where Al Don was at 1650. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where Neil Bogart and Casablanca in the earlier days were located. And a lot of companies, lots of publishers, lots of little record labels. Every office, there was very record labels, every office. There was very little else but music companies.

And you could walk those halls, as I often did, looking at the names on the doors and listening. Sometimes you'd hear the conversations of somebody playing piano. And it was very inspiring. It just filled me with the desire to do what I knew those young people were doing, like Carol and Jerry and Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil and Neil Sedaka and Jack Keller and Allie Greenfield. Everybody was there. There were so many. Jeff Barry and Ellie Greenwich. Yeah, well, they were a different company, but yes, they were. Right. And Jack Keller.

Yeah, you said them were a different company, but yes, they were. Right. Yeah. And Jack Keller, yeah, you said them all. Everybody was there. Why, and this was just something that I found in my research, and why are so many of these wonderful songwriters Jewish? Is there something, and so many from Brooklyn? Right. Well, I would say, firstly, Brooklyn was probably, you know, the world's largest Jewish ghetto.

And so it's no surprise that's where most of them came from. Some maybe from the Bronx, but, you know, the majority from Brooklyn. And I think songwriting was always very appealing to the Jewish people. It was a way to be self-employed because, as you know, we all know Jews never really loved to work for people. They wanted their own business, which is why I think our ancestors had their own little, you know, they had their carts. And they conducted their business because they didn't want to answer to anybody. You know, that was in their ethic. So it appealed to people you know

i could write songs it's it's something that was in their in their heart and in their blood it probably had a lot to do with the fact that we all were nurtured on music in some way by our grandparents and our parents and uh and yeah, I wasn't surprised. It was something that the young Jewish people liked the Carols and the Jerrys and the Barrys. Well, it's fascinating. Jeff Barry, Jack Keller, Mort Schumann, Doc Palmas, Jerry Goffin, Barry Mann, Sedak, Howie Greenfield.

Lieber and Stoller. Lieber and Stoller, yourself. The list goes on and on. What's in the water? Neil Diamond. Neil Diamond, yes. Harry Manilow. Yeah, the list goes on.

And something that Frank and I have laughed about a few times is that every classic Christmas song. That too. The Jews wrote every classic Christmas song. Yeah, it's kind of crazy, but it's true. Yeah, I had a manager in the Brill Building, and some of those guys were still in there as recently as the 80s. Johnny Marks,

M-A-R-K-S. Sure. Do you know him? Marks. A little bit, yes. Yeah, the Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer song. Absolutely. Tell us the Carole King story that tell me tell us the the carol king story that you told me on the phone because it's fun and then joe mcginney said you had a neil diamond story too yeah i do uh the carol king story i was signed to the tokens and uh they were allowing me to come up to their office and go into the room that had the piano and use it so after school literally almost every day i would

take the train come into the city use that office i was 13 it was okay to travel on my own i mean that's the way yeah yes those days and i'd sit in there you know and it had the yellow pad and the pen and the pencil and the ashtray and I would work and teach myself and work on ideas and try to learn to play things I loved and like what makes Up on the Roof so great and I struggled a little because I had I knew the music in my head and the lyrics but I needed to teach myself how to play it. And that was a process, needless to say. I did a lot of reading. I studied a little later on in my life and in my development.

They sound like great romantic days looking back. It was great. It was really great. And the Tokens were very kind to me. And Jay Siegel, who I still talk to uh-huh uh it was lovely then he is lovely now and he still sings great and he's still working a lot and uh unfortunately hank medras and mitch margo two of the original tokens are gone yes but phil margo still alive he's in los angeles uh so they told me one day listen we we the room. You have to leave the room because someone's coming up to play us a song.

I said, oh, okay, no problem. He said, have you met Carole King? I said, no. And I knew who she was, of course. I worshipped her even then. Well, she's coming up because they had He's So Fine, which was number one that they produced with the Chiffons. which was number one that they produced with the Chiffons,

Carol was coming up to play them a new song that she thought would be a great follow-up to He's So Fine. And so they said, you could stay. So I did. I didn't go in the room. I was like right out in the hallway there. But she came up and she played One Fine Day for them live. Wow. I had never heard it.

It was brand new. And I was there. What a thing to witness. It was brand new. And I was there. What a thing to witness. It was incredible. Yeah. And, yeah. What's the diamond story? The diamond story is that I knew Neil

from the streets around 1650 and the Brill Building. I always thought, you know, he's a different kind of guy. He's more erudite. He's less of a braggart he doesn't have time to just hang around on the corner and tell you about all the next records he's got he was he was busy and he was purposeful and i kind of respected that uh-huh so and we got to know each other a little just hi and you know he i knew a little bit about the fact that he'd been signed i think to a company a company called Roosevelt Music as a writer. This was before he had any hits.

So I'm in my office in 1650 one night working on a song and I kept the outside door locked just so that, you know, nobody would walk in. And there's a knock on the door and I open up the door. It's like there's a one inner office and a little outer waiting room i open up the door and it's neil he knows me you know from seeing me around and me him i said hi he said he said is this your office i said yeah this is my little company fling music it was called fling music fling i love it so uh he said well i said you know, what can I do for you? What's going on? He said, I have some songs that I'm trying to place. They're Christmas songs.

I know it's June. There you go, Jewish guy with Christmas songs. He said, I'm trying to place these. And, you know, in those days, if you had a loose song, even I did it once in my entire life before I had my own little company, Fling. I remember writing a song with Lou Courtney, my first collaborator, and we took it to Shapiro Bernstein, big publisher, and sold them the song for $50 and signed a contract.

But they gave us a $50 advance. So that's the sort of thing that you could do if you had a song and a publisher liked it. They'd say, how much do you want? Or they would offer you something. And it wasn't that they were buying it outright. You still had an entitlement to some royalties, but that was the incentive. So he comes in. I said, well, I'd be happy to listen. You know, and I said, I'm kind of curious, too. So and I knew May, June is when you get busy with Christmas songs, because by the time you get to the fall, it's too late. So he comes in, he plays me these songs. He was so good even then. And the songs were good. And when we were done, I said, you know, they're really good. But I think I wouldn't

be doing you any favor if I made some kind of deal with you because this is like a one-man show here, a two-man show. It's me and Lou, and we work on our own songs, and it wouldn't be easy for us to shop something around. We don't have a staff. So that was it. Well, years later, like I would say mid-'70s,

it had to be 10 years later or more, I was in Beverly Hills in one of the restaurants. I think it was Nate and Al's having breakfast. And he comes. I didn't know it was him, but he comes from behind me and gives me one of these incredible big bear hugs. And I look up and it's Neil. And he never forgot. I hadn't seen him in all that time wow and he had not

forgotten that he we once had that meeting in my office 10 years earlier so that was a beautiful moment that's nice i was doing a little research on 1650 i sent you that article from the wall street journal were you able to open that i i haven't yet but it was the gilbert you know the building you know where ellen's stardust Diner is? Oh, yeah. That nostalgia diner? Yeah. That's the building. And I think Iridium Jazz Club is in there,

and I did some deep research. I think Martin and Lewis used to rehearse in that building. Do you know anything about this? I don't. Yeah. No. Yeah. It's fascinating.

I mean, it's still there. I also read that they were approached, the building owners were approached to put up a plaque, to erect a plaque on the building to acknowledge all of these, everything that took place there. They should. And they shut the idea down. Really? They didn't want it. I don't know if they didn't want the publicity or what.

About three or four years ago, I asked if I could walk around the building. Oh, you went back? That's cool. Yeah, and the guard said, yeah, go ahead. And he let me go. And I went up to the top floor and worked my way down every floor. I think there were 10 floors in that building, something like that. It's not a particularly big building. And I frankly couldn't even remember my own suite number. Wow. I just don't recall. You know, I know we were on a low floor, four or three but i don't remember but i got off

on those floors and nothing looked the same you know it had been redone a lot is there music publishing in the building still or is that yeah a little bit yeah a little bit there's all kinds of stuff entertainment related and i guess that's part of the legacy of the building did you meet specter in those days phil specter no never met him no i don't think i ever actually had a you know any kind of face-to-face with him interesting and in the cats guilds did you ever run into henny youngman yes absolutely you saw everybody yeah they played there i mean those they were the headliners in the bigger hotels. But the hotels that were like the Concord, like Brown's, like Grossinger's, Nevely, Kutcher's, they had the bigger acts. You played all of those rooms?

Not all of them. I played the lounge in the Concord. I could never get, you know, Charlie Rapp, he was the big agent at the time. He wouldn't book me. You know, he had too many bigger acts. So I had to work with the people that would book me. As a result, I worked in a lot of

really low-end places. They were fun to work in. The audiences were great. But, you know, it was Leibowitz's Pine View. Do, it was Leibowitz's Pine View. Do you get? Leibowitz's Pine View. That was a typical.

That was my call on Wednesday. Dennis? See, had Gilbert come along 10 years, what, 15 years earlier, Gil, you would have been playing those rooms. He sort of just missed that wave. Yeah. And how many hotels were there in the Catskills back then? I would have to venture a

guess. 300. Amazing. You wound up playing the Nevillee, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was a hotel on every corner. There were bungalow colonies and they had shows. Great days.

They were great days. They really days. They were great days. Yeah, yeah. They really were. Yeah. They were great. And that's kind of where I learned what I needed. I felt what I needed to know to venture into the music business. I just felt like I had the best training.

If you could survive that and do well there, you could pretty much do anything. So you did a little bit of everything. You had a doo-wop group. What was it? The Dayhills? Yeah. You did a little doo-wop. You were writing. We're going to ask you later when you worked with Burgess Meredith because that's just fascinating. But you were doing a little bit of this,

a little bit of that. You told me on the phone you wrote a song for Jerry Lee Lewis. Yeah. Yeah. I did. Yeah, that's also fun. But eventually in what you were talking about before, you met these three big shots, Don Arden and Grant. Peter Grant. Yeah, Peter Grant, who was managing what?

Led Zeppelin. Not then. It was the Yardbirds then. Right. They brought you over there, and you met Brian Potter, who would become your songwriting partner. And then you guys, how did you make the decision with Brian, I think we can write together?

It's just one of those sort of things that's like destiny. When I met him, it was in 65, and we didn't actually get together until 69. So four years went by, and during those four years, a lot happened. I mean, maybe not so much in terms of what he looked at as his life, because he was working in the same business. He was with Don for a few years. Then he worked for Lionel Bart, the composer of Oliver.

Yeah, sure. Also doing essentially the same thing, running songs, writing a little bit. And so, yeah, I met him, and he was assigned to me. You know, Dennis is very young. He can't get around. He doesn't know London, so you have to take him wherever we're sending him.

And they were sending me to rehearse with the nashville teens yeah i remember the nashville teens yeah they had a huge sure tobacco road and i got to produce the next record so uh so brian was accompanying me everywhere and i just thought this guy is is sort of like one of a kind he He knew more about America than I knew, or that I think anybody I knew knew about America. He knew more about the music business in America than anyone I knew.

He was an avid fan of jazz. Not that I was. I wasn't. But he grew up in England in a little pub where they had soldiers stationed during and after the war. So you had to go to the UK to meet a guy who knew the most about American music or anybody that you had ever met. Yeah, it was pretty crazy. Pretty crazy. But we really had an incredible friendship. A real bond was formed. And then he stayed in England. I went back. I continued to work

and then I got drafted. I went into the Army for two years. So that's a lot of time and a lot of territory that separated us first meeting to when ultimately I said, would you like to come to California? I'm getting out

and I'm going to go right out to California. Don Costa's waiting. Brian knew who he was, of course. And I said, you know, maybe I can get you a job running the songs because I knew that Don didn't have anybody doing that yet. It was a new company. He was just getting it established out there. So Brian said, oh, it would be incredible.

And when it actually push came to shove and I offered him the job when I was in California a few months, he said, no, I can't accept it. And I thought, what? And he said, if I can't write songs, I can't accept the job and come as a publisher and misrepresent what my first love is. I'll run around a little bit with songs once I know the city and do that. But I have to be able to write songs. So I have to say no. And I went back to Don and I said, this guy is so committed to writing songs. What do you think?

Should we bring him and let him write? And I wasn't thinking it would be with me. I thought maybe we'll write something. But he said, sure, bring him. So I go back to Brian. I say, it's OK. You can write songs and run songs as a publisher for us, as a plugger. And he said, great, I'm coming.

And March 1969, flew to California. I met him, lived with me and my then wife for three months till he got settled and during Go ahead. I was going to say during those months

we started to fool around with some music. Yeah, what was the process? Because you were saying before people assumed that you would play and that he was writing lyrics but it wasn't necessarily that way. You would try No, and he knew how I worked and, but it wasn't necessarily that way. You would, you would.

And he knew how I worked. I mean, you know, I don't know that. Yeah, he heard me play. He, you know, when I was in England, I sat down and played some things. And I knew that he'd written a wide variety of interesting songs as well with different people. He played me his demos. I played him mine. And I remember leaving him three or four of the songs he really liked that I played him. And he got a couple of them recorded by acts in England that were doing well that had chart

records. Wow. So he was coming through for me. And I thought, this is incredible. He was very generous and unselfish and focused. And we had this thing like brothers we were instant brothers that's so sweet it's so nice when it clicks like that that when that when that chemistry kicks in what was the breakthrough lambert potter song was it one tin soldier

yes it was i think it might have been if it wasn't our first it was our second song. I remember we had this group that we found. They were Canadian, and they were like a pop rock sort of group, folk rock at that time. They were really good. They had an incredible lead singer. Dixie Lee Innes was her name, and she was amazing, like a Karen Carpenter kind of a singer. Great voice. And the band was good and they were

very organic and we said, you know, we need to write them some songs. They had good songs but they didn't have anything we thought sounded like a hit. So we wrote Once in Soldier for them and when we finished it, we looked at each other and we said, where did this come

from? It's an anti-war song written by a Jewish guy from Brooklyn and a Brit. Yeah, it was kind of crazy, you know, and I think it was one of those moments that we actually thought it must have been channeled through us somehow, because it wasn't a conscious decision we made to come up with that idea and make it into this little fable and and and turn it into you know i mean brian knew i had very strong feelings about the war having served and sure and being kind of uh conflicted about it you know my own peers were doing things very different than what i was doing for the two years I was in the army. So I was thinking, well, you know, I'm just doing what millions of other Americans have done before, serve our country in a time of war. Whether you think they're right or they're not, you serve.

You were called and you do it. My peers who were not in the service, of course, were busy protesting and burning draft cards and going to Canada and taking over administration buildings at universities. And I was very divided and conflicted by all of that. I didn't know what to think and feel, which is, I think, partly what pushed me to throw out to Brian that we should try to write something for them that's like a bit of a protest song.

That just sort of sprung out of the two of you. I think so. Can we hear a little bit of 110's? Sure. Gilbert and I like this one. Listen children to a story That was written long ago About a kingdom on a mountain And the valley folk below.

On the mountain was a treasure buried deep beneath a stone. And the valley people swore they'd have it for their very own. So go ahead and hate your neighbor. Go ahead and cheat a friend. Do it in the name of heaven.

You can justify it in the end. There won't be any trumpets blowing. Come the judgment day. On the bloody morning after. One tin soldier rides away. Fantastic.

Oh, great. Fantastic. Thank you. Great, thanks. Thank you. Great, thanks. How did it end up in Billy Jack? Yeah, that was kind of crazy. We were working, Brian and I, for a little company that we were kind of a part of forming called TA, Talent Associates.

So they said they were trying to build their TV company and they wanted to bring in a guy named Steve B binder who was a very very well-known we had him on the show director okay we had steve yeah dear friend good man no another major mentor of mine oh we love meets me says i want you to run this little record company i mean i've got to do my tv stuff and you know i'll be involved of course it's my it's my passion but I want you and Brian was with me so he said you know you guys can kind of run it day to day do your thing write songs make records so we signed the original cast we make this record comes out it did pretty well you know it was on the charts it didn't go all the way but in Canada it was number one where they're from and it was I, top 30 or something like that,

you know, on the chart. So about a few months after it had been a success, I get a call in the office. I pick it up and it's a guy calling me by the name of Tom Laughlin, who I'd never heard of. Billy Jack. He introduced himself. Yeah, he said, I'm a director.

I'm an actor. I have this movie I'm making. And I heard a song that I was told you, did you write One Tin Soldier? I said, yes. He said, well, I was camping in Canada in the middle of nowhere with my wife. We do that kind of thing. And he said, I heard this song on my radio. And I thought, this is being sent to me directly from God.

Great. And I need this song in my movie because it is the story of my movie. And I said, wow, that is so great. I was thrilled. It was maybe my first opportunity to get something in a movie. So, of course, I go to the business people at our label. And the first question they have is how much are we going to get for giving it to them to use in the movie? I said, well, it's not for me to negotiate,

but I think we should be thinking we should give them this song and have a shot at additional promotion and the good that could come out of it, more exposure, because we all were a little disappointed with what happened in the end with the original cast yeah that first record nope they wanted money and when i told laughlin that they wanted money and it wasn't an insignificant amount i mean they wanted like 10 grand or something he said well you know they're going to force me to record it on my own and instead of asking me would i do it

because i might have figured out a way to do that he just went in and did it on his own with a group he found that was coven coven yeah and uh i think he had the guy who wrote the musical score to billy jack produced the record and when we heard the record we thought okay i mean it's very similar to what we had done they copied our our record uh wasn't in my opinion as good but the movie of course was the you know it elevated uplift yeah yeah of course we will return to gilbert gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this. And now I have to jump totally out of left field and go back to the

Catskills. I asked Neil Sadaka to do this, and he did. Did you ever sing My Yiddish Your Mama? I did, actually. Can I hear some of that? Gilbert, you hit pay dirt.

Oh, man. I'm trying to think if I can remember the Yiddish lyrics. We make you work on us. My Yiddish mama. I know the English. I miss her more than ever now My Yiddish imam I love to kiss her wrinkled brow

I love to hold her hand once more As in days gone by And ask her to forgive me For things I did to make her cry Beautiful. Beautiful. He takes requests, Gilbert. Great. Thank you, Dennis.

Thank you. I didn't know it in Yiddish. I just can't remember it now. Wow. That was great. Great. Great. We're going to play that at your service, Gil. So One Tin Soldier puts you guys on the map as songwriters, as songwriters to be reckoned with,

and Don't Pull Your Love was the next hit? You mean Brian Potter? Yeah, you and Brian. Yeah. be reckoned with and don't pull your love was the next was the next hit uh you mean brian potter yeah yeah uh yes the next really big hit yeah we had written it and uh a favorite i recorded it i recorded it as a group called the country star they were a little kind of uh you know studio group me singing lead studio musicians the wrecking crew kind of guys you know yeah actually some of them and uh we thought we were going to release it on ta records but it didn't come out because we were experiencing a hiccup with the funding for our label. The bosses, the owners, were not expecting us to be hitting them up for more money as frequently as we were. And they just didn't, they didn't opt in for that. They thought this was going to kind of pay for itself somehow. And we were all a bit disillusioned, um that was just the way it was so i took

the record thinking we got to do something with this song and i thought maybe i could get it placed on an another label since we saw the end was near i i went to see Steve Barry. Another music legend. Yes. Legendary producer, songwriter, head of A&R for Dunhill Records. Very powerful, important guy. I didn't know anything about him. But when I met him for the first time and met his wife, who he had just married then, I met somebody that was going to become a lifelong friend. Both of them. this day they are dear dear friends that's nice so i go in and i play don't pull your love by me and steve absolutely flips for the song on the spot and says i want to play this for the

grassroots i mean this was like a dream come true. The Grassroots had like 10 consecutive top 10 singles. They were coming off like I'd wait a million years, number one. And we said, okay, how are you going to say no to that? Yeah, I sort of passed on insisting it be me and my record. I thought, to get a Grassroots cut, please. This is what I really was dreaming about. So we give him the song, and then, I don't know, a month later, he tells us, they just can't get it.

It's not working. And I was devastated. Rob Grill couldn't sing it. No, he couldn't sing it. And I got to know Rob Grill really well. And at one point, I signed the grassroots when they left dunhill to my little label i loved rob grill he was a great singer but i guess there were things that maybe he just couldn't feel and this was you know a little bit of an odd feel the song and uh and so

steve says no they can't do it but he said all is not lost. Well, as far as I was concerned, you know, all was lost. But he said, I have this new group I just signed. And he tells me they're Hamilton, Joe Frank, and Reynolds. I said, oh, he's signing law firms. I said, you know, who are they? He said, yeah, that's their name. Hamilton, Joe Frank, and Reynolds. They're guys.

Danny Hamilton, Joe Frank, Carollo're guys you had Danny Hamilton Joe Frank Carollo and Tommy Reynolds okay let me try it with them well I was not going to pull it away from him I said okay and he did it and he was reporting to us that he thought it sounded amazing uh-huh and then we came in to hear it and when we came in to hear it and he said and everybody in the company thinks it's going to be number one. And we were excited about that. He, in that meeting, said, I'd like to introduce you to Jay Lasko, the president, because if you guys are interested, I'd love to bring you over here to Dunhill. And I was like, what? You know, this was an incredible opportunity. I might have gotten there with the questions, but he beat me to the punch.

And he walked us up to meet Jay and a few of the other people. And in a minute, we were there. We had an office, we had a piano, we had access to the studio. We weren't employees, but we felt like part of the team, part of the staff. But Jay made a great deal for us and gave us autonomy and gave us control. And that was because Steve said, let these guys do what they do. And Steve knew that those were the right guys to record that record. I guess so. I always thought Elvis would have knocked that one out of the park. Don't pull your love.

Because Danny Hamilton is a little bit like that kind of singing voice. Yes, absolutely. Like suspicious minds. Yeah. Bring to mind. Yeah. Yeah, we love that one. Here's another strange request.

Every songwriter we've had on, I always love it. Every great songwriter has that at least one song that they just cringe that they wrote. You know, they just go, oh, God, how did I do that? Well, the man's written 600 songs. Yeah. So do you have one? 550 make me cringe. Yeah.

550 make him cringe. Do you have one you could think of that you go, oh, God, how horrible? My son, who, of course, knows a lot of my music. Yes. Your son, Joey. And holds my feet to the fire, although I have to say he's one of my big fans. Yes. And always been incredibly supportive, thinks that, you know, I'm half black.

I mean, he thinks, like, where did you come up with some of these jams? You know, like, but he, there's a song I wrote that he came across years ago called caught with my heart down. Caught with your heart down. I got to hear it. And you know, the analogy. Of course.

So we are using all of those kinds of analogies in the song. That, you know, like I didn't know I turned around and something was loose. And the next thing I know, I'm caught with my heart down. So I don't even remember, frankly, how it goes. But I can tell you that was the one I've paid dearly for. Well, you're going to have to come back and sing that one. Caught with my heart down. But since you mentioned...

I'll learn it. Since you mentioned writing for black artists, and, you know, those Temptation songs, excuse me, those four top songs. You also work with the Temptations. But specifically the four top songs. Fascinating. Again, that you guys could write

not only something like Keeper of the Castle, but Ain't No Woman Like the One I Got, which they said those songs were as good as anything they got at Motown, which must have flattered you guys tremendously. Yeah, oh, it did. And we knew that's what it would take. When we heard that they were leaving Motown, I kind of ran into Steve Barry's office.

I said, have you heard that the Four Tops are leaving? And he hadn't yet. And that put in motion setting up meetings. Jay Lasker had his people call their manager. And, you know, we, of course, pitched why we wanted them to come in and that we wanted to make an album with them, multiple albums if we could, and that we thought we could deliver the hits. And Jay said, well, no one ever left Motown that ever made it. And we knew that. And we said it's because they just didn't have the songs they needed to have a career outside of Motown.

That's all it really would have taken, commitment to promotion and marketing and the right music. And there's nothing magical about a particular label, although I think Motown was, you know, there's fairy dust sprinkled on that company, and I always loved their artists and their music and their people. Yeah, agreed. But, you know, Jay said, okay, let's bring them in.

And so we had meetings with them. First the business was done, and then the creative meetings. And as nice as they were, and they were incredibly nice, and we had a great series of meetings talking about music and their records that I loved so much and Brian loved so much, we thought, how are we going to follow what they've had hits with? I mean, the greatest R&B songs possibly of that generation. It's a tough act to follow.

Yeah. But that was the challenge. And I particularly loved the group. And I loved them in part so much because they were a group that played the Catskills. And I saw them multiple times in the 50s when they were working at the big hotels wow as a kind of a four freshman mills brothers type group you know harmonies songs that adults would understand no no rock and roll no I mean a few things, but some blues songs and stuff, but nothing that you would call pop. I knew how great they were.

I knew how deep their talent was. And I knew, I learned that Lawrence Payton, one of the four original guys, was the primary vocal arranger for the group. And he was capable of doing things that they had never done on record. And he was capable of doing things that they had never done on record. And I thought, if we could write them songs that are a little more complex for background vocals, Lawrence will kill this. He'll arrange these things. And the beautiful thing is they invited me in to sing with them, which was such a thrill for me.

What a thrill. Did you play them all at once, Keeper of the Castle and the other songs? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, we spent like six weeks writing for them, doing nothing else. And I think we came up with about six or seven songs that we really liked in that period. Not every song, because then we knew they might have a few.

You know, O.B. Benson, one of the four tops, wrote What's Going On with Marvin Gaye. So, I mean, he had songs and all the guys had something, you know, Lawrence did.

Not Levi so much, but Lawrence and Obi. What was the thrill to suddenly hear your words and your music coming out of

the great Levi Stubbs because you've been a fan for so long? Oh my God. What an experience. It was just incredible. And he was, he could think on his feet and ad lib on his feet.

He knew how to take a song from that first level of, of intensity. He knew when to pull back a little bit and then went kind of double down. And then when you were into like, you know, the end, the fade, he was the greatest ad-libber. He could come up with these inspirational little lines and little lyrical ideas that he pulled from the body of the song. And it was thrilling. the body of the song. And it was thrilling.

And we made that first album, which had, I thought, five songs in it that could have been hits. And unfortunately, and even then, I remember us, Steve Barry and I and Brian, going to Jay and pitching him hard on the idea that let's not abandon releasing singles because the albums are where you make the money right because in our minds if you had four or five hits you'd sell a lot more albums yeah sure yeah that was the writing on the wall yeah even in you know

1972 but uh they didn't see it that way they thought thought, you know, it's run its course. We had two top tens, you know, they were big records, Ain't No Woman and Keeper of the Castle. Time for another album. We had songs on that album, like Remember What I Told You to Forget, which we loved,

which Tavares had a hit with. We had a song called Love Music that we loved, that we thought was a smash and they never saw the light of day. Of course, people covered them. Are You Man Enough was on, that came later was a smash, and they never saw the light of day. Of course, people covered them. Are You Man Enough was on, that came later? The second album. The second album. Also great.

Oh, thank you. Can I push you to work again and do a short medley on some of your hits, which I'd just love to hear from me. Regardless of who did them? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. All right. So. Ain't no woman like the one I got. Ain't no woman like the one I got.

Ain't no woman like the one I got Ain't no woman like the one I got Every day the sun comes up around her She can make the birds sing harmony Every drop of rain is glad it found her heaven must have made her just for me when she smiled so warm and tender a sight for sore eyes to see ain't no woman like the one i got oh no no, they don't come better. To make her happy doesn't take a lot. You don't ask for things, no diamond ring. Sewed together like a hand in glove, like pages in a letter. Ain't no woman like the one I love. Say you don't know me Recognize my face Say you don't care who goes To that kind of place Knee deep in the hoopla

Sinking in your fight Too many runaways Yeeting up the night Marco replays the mamba Listen to the radio Don't you remember Rebuilt this city We built this city

On rock and roll And I'll just end it there. Cool. Oh, thank you. I like what you've done with that. Thank you. I like what you've done with it. Yeah, I did that live, so I kind of jazzed it up a little bit.

And I started off the interview with kind of mocking that song, and I love the way you sing it just now. Oh, well, thanks. I love every version of that song, so sue me. Yeah. That made me really appreciate that song. You won me over. Well, thanks.

Thank you. What about Night Shift, Dennis, which we talked about, too, on the phone? And you said that that song has an interesting creation, an interesting process. Yes, absolutely. Because you asked in advance if there was a song that I could talk a little bit about how it got written, the process itself. Yeah, we're curious, and then we'll talk about the Philippines. Yeah, okay, so I was called by Motown to meet with the Commodores. I was excited about it. I always loved them. I knew that Lionel

was officially no longer in the group. He had just left to pursue his solo career. And that was, you know, the writing was on the wall. Everybody could see that was coming. Sure. But they were great friends, and I think they still are. So I went to meet with them, and they were like a bit gutted and a bit confused and somewhat in doubt about their future. And I understood that.

On the other hand, they had 13 consecutive platinum albums. And Walter Orange, Clyde, as he's referred to, the drummer with the big glasses, he was the original lead singer who did most of the early stuff. He wrote and sang Brick House and a bunch of the other early songs. And I kind of felt that he could easily sing other new songs we do and pull them off. It didn't require Lionel.

And I also thought that maybe we should be doing things that are more rhythmic and not ballads per se, like they'd been doing a lot of with Lionel. So in the process of writing for them and getting songs gathered and meeting with them individually and collectively to hear what they had started or what they, you know, ideas they had. Clyde, he and I had a kind of an instant bond, such a lovely guy and a great drummer. So he said, I want to just play you something. And he plays me a cassette of a little groove that he worked on at home, you know, like a home demo. And it was just, there wasn't any music, just a groove.

And there was actually a little plucking guitar. And it was like... And I remembered loving the groove. I said, oh, that's a cool little groove. I like it. And he gave me the cassette. So now I tuck that away in my pocket. And we're talking a little bit about the song and maybe me working on it with him. And he says to me,

what do you think about a song that would be a tribute to Marvin Gaye? Because he had just died that year. And I said, well, if we're careful and if we could pull off a great song that's not preachy, that's not heavy handed, you know, it could be good. He said, well, you know, Marvin was a friend of mine. And when he said that to me, a light bulb went off because it was like the opening line, the line in. And sometimes you need that, you know, you need that weigh in, right?

And it was an unusual situation because I was writing a lot with Franny Goldie. She and I wrote Don't Look Any Further, and we wrote Night Shift and a bunch of other songs as well for a lot of different artists that I was producing. And I love working with Franny. She's a great songwriter and an incredible person to be around. So we have a date to meet in the studio. I'm already starting some stuff with them. And she comes in, you know, brings the bagels. It's early

in the morning. We're going to sit at the piano. I play her the groove. I said, you know, this is something Walter played me. I really like this groove. She listens to it. She says, yeah, it's a great little groove. I said, you know, we can cop that on the piano. I mean, we don't need to have that, a full demo, you know, going. I said, he tells me that, you know, he was a friend of Marvin Gaye's. And he said, Marvin was a friend of mine. And I said, I thought, wow, what a great first line. You know, Marvin, he was a friend of mine.

We didn't have the melody yet, but so she's into it. She gets it and before we could blink i say to i said to franny you know what we should try to do if you like this idea i said is first let's let's include jackie wilson because if you remember jackie wilson had been like in a coma yeah a long time yeah like eight years and he died the same year as Marvin and I said he's a legend he's Michael Jackson's idol we should include him she said yeah absolutely okay so now I said what if we take the best parts of all their hits and lift little parts of the lyric in our lyric to make it seem familiar but it's gonna be a delicate process very clever she understood that yeah

she said that's a great idea so before we knew it we had the verses pretty much written but you know so we had the verses pretty much written. But, you know, so we had like, Marvin, he was a friend of mine And he could sing a song His heart in every line Marvin, Marvin So we finished the verses, but we didn't have a chorus. And when you develop a song,

before you have a chorus, before you have a title, it sort of like puts you in this place where you're stuck because you think, what are we trying to say? What is the point of this what is what what pays off for this story about Marvin and how he sang things that made us feel things we hadn't felt and connected to things that were important social issues and Jackie who was this incredible dancer and you know set the world on fire and and was working out you know workout baby uh and i remember we're thinking and we're struggling we're trying to find a title for it and

and nothing was coming and franny just looked at me and said what about what about the night shift that it was the night shift that they were on because they're gone now. And I looked at her and I said, that is just fucking brilliant. That's great. That is exactly what we were looking for. And once we had that word, that phrase, it put the period at the end of the sentence. It was easy to back into what we were going to say. Going to be some sweet sounds coming down on the night shift. I bet you're singing proud.

I bet you pull a crowd. It just opened it up for all the things you could say about how they get together in heaven and that thing. We love that. We love how songs come together

and are constructed. Remember Neil took us through Love Will Keep Us Together? Yes. Told us he borrowed Do It Again from Brian Wilson. And basically he built

Love Will Keep Us Together off that riff. Yeah, that actually was the winning record of the year the same year we were up for record of the year for Rhinestone. 75? 75. Yeah, very good. And they won. We love this.

We love how songs come together. With the 10 minutes we have left. Oh, wait a second. What, what? We got to talk about his journey. We have to get to your journey, but we haven't sang Rhinestone Cowboy together.

Let's do it. You're not leaving here unless I sing Rhinestone Cowboy with you. You want to talk about the Philippines and then close with that, Gil? Or you want to do it now? Okay.

Each one of you should take a section. Okay. You first, Dennis. I've been walking these streets so long Singing the same old song I know every crack in these dirty sidewalks of Broadway Where hustle's the name of the game And nice guys get washed away like the snow and the rain

There's been a load of compromising On the road to my horizon But I'm gonna be where the lights are shining on me Like a rhinestone cowboy. Riding out on a horse in a star-spangled rodeo. Like a rhinestone cowboy. Getting cards and letters from people I don't even know. There you go. Your world is coming over the phone.

Like a rhinestone cowboy. Thank you. Yeah. You know you weren't leaving without us doing that. Okay, I'm happy. You scratched his itch, Dennis. Oh, thank you. We'll come back to Glenn at the end,

but let's talk about the documentary that we all just watched and your magical trip to the Philippines. Yeah. The promoter that tried to get you to go there for what? 30 years? Yeah, 30 years. What was the name, Brendan? A little bit more.

Yeah. And wasn't it your career after 600 songs, you were kind of like, I'm sorry, how do you spell your name? Like it had become like that, like that people didn't know you after 600 songs well that's that's not uncommon yeah you know people in the industry sort of knew me you know and still do many still do who love music and follow the history of songs and songwriters but uh the public typically doesn't know the songwriters. They know the artists,

and the artists get most of the credit for having brought those songs into the world, and that's okay. In my case, since I started as a singer and I always wanted to sing and always did sing on my records that I produced with many of the artists, like I mentioned with the Four Tops inviting me to be one of the background singers on every single song. Loved it. I sang a lot with Natalie Cole. I sang a lot with lots of artists. They always heard me sing and they said, hey, why don't you do a part with us?

So that was great. I got my fill. But Steve Barry, who heard me play and sing a lot of our new songs, said, you should make an album, and I would love to produce it, and we'll do it on Dunhill. It'll come out, and I thought, wow, what an opportunity, and the thing that I thought also was interesting is that we, Brian and I, were used to putting on a different hat every day for a different artist, try to think like them.

What would we do for the Four Tops or for Smith or for the Grassroots or for Hamilton, Joe Frangin, you know? And each of them were a little different. You know, you had to think female, male, pop, more R&B, whatever. This was an opportunity to write singer-songwriter kinds of songs, but still with a, you know, fundamentally commercial ethic and underpinning. So it was a great chance to do that. And we, again, we woodshed it. We wrote the songs. We were very proud of them. Then we thought they were really good. And Steve did a great job. We labored over it, made a really good album,

and the label loved it. The label thought it was going to be really big. They thought I was going to have the male tapestry because Carol's album had just come out. 72. Yeah, same year as mine. Yeah. Hers was a little ahead of me and started to do really well,

and they said, this is like that. This is that kind of album. And they were making the comparison. She's the songwriter from Brooklyn, and so are you. So they went after it, and they spent money, and they did a good, I thought, they made a concerted effort to promote it. But it just didn't stick.

And I'm not sure what went wrong exactly. We all thought the music was right. We thought we made some hits, but they just didn't stick. And so we moved on. And, you know, I wasn't all that broken hearted. I was disappointed a little bit, but I had plenty of other things going on and lots of songs being cut and things that were becoming big hits in that same time frame so i didn't have any any time to sulk right about six months or so or a year later we started to hear from the people that worked in the international department that the record was really big in the philippines and they were kind of making a joke about it you know and i thought well since i hadn't seen any real money coming from there,

what could it really mean? I just underestimated the importance of that market and the 60 or whatever, 70 million people there that love music with a passion. Yeah. And they're a unique race and a unique breed of people. And somehow, because of that promoter, who was then a young DJ on a big station in Manila

and had the ability to choose what he wanted to play, he found my album, he fell in love with it, and he started to play it and play it a lot. And it started to stick. And one of the songs became a huge, huge single. And so much so that it became the unofficial national Valentine's Day song for the country. That's of all the things. Of all the things.

It still is. Yeah. Yeah. You're our third guest composer who found major success, surprise success in the Philippines. Paul Williams has been on this show, major star in the Philippines, and Charles Fox. And Charles Fox also? Yes, major star. I do.

Yes. You guys all had big success in the Philippines. Charles as an artist or his music? I guess his music. Yeah. Okay, yeah. And as a matter of fact, I was always in love with the musical score to this movie Zapped with Scott Baio, which is one of these

tits and ass teen comedies. And I thought the movie's bad, but boy, I like the music. And he said that me and the people of the Philippines are the only people who appreciate that music score.

I have songs that they know over there and worship. It's amazing. That I had no idea until I spent enough time with people who really get deep into the musical trenches. Like, I went back for the second time about three years ago. And I did two shows. And they were in big venues, not like the Araneta Coliseum,

but beautiful. They have an area in Manila that is like Vegas on Manila Bay. There's all these gorgeous big resorts with casinos and gambling and showrooms, big theaters. So one of the people that I co-headlined a show with,

a very popular artist in the Philippines, a lady by the name of Joey Albert, she said to me, of course you're going to sing hardcore poetry, right? I said, what? I mean, I hadn't listened to hardcore poetry in probably 10 years, no less played it. She said, oh, I mean, that's like one of your biggest songs.

And everybody knows you wrote that because they put that together, even though it wasn't my song as an artist. It wasn't on my album. It was on a Tavares album. But Tavares are very big in the Philippines. Also big. Yes. And when they discovered this song by Tavares and that I had written it, they just put it in the same league with of all the things. So in an impromptu kind of way,

we put an arrangement of it together that very day and sang it. And my wife couldn't believe she was with me on that trip. She didn't go the first time. So she said, she was sitting where I could see her. And we start the song with the intro. And I don't even think I can play it now. I don't remember it. It's a difficult song to play.

And I learned it just for that concert. But I'm playing the intro. And I'm seeing everybody in their seats. And they're all clapping. And I start the song. And they're all clapping and I start the song and they're all singing with me. They wouldn't even let me establish the song. That's great.

The entire audience sang every word from the top of it to the end. And my wife said to me, that was the most incredible thing I've ever experienced. That's great. And it was amazing, I have to say. So Renan was asking you,

the promoter who was a DJ then, was asking you what, for 30 years, for 40 years, something like that, to come to the Philippines ever since Bags and Things came out in 72. And you were too busy and you didn't want to disrupt your life and you didn't want to disrupt your career and there never seemed like a good time to go until you basically retired from the music business. Almost. I mean, I wasn't really officially retired. Not officially retired. Yeah, but I was living in South Florida. Right. And my wife, my son, my daughter, everybody was saying to me,

I mean, what's stopping you now? I understand when you were in LA and you were going crazy with projects. And even in New York, I had a record label. I was running it for five, six years. He would come to me then, too. And I said, no, I had a record label. I was running it for five, six years. You know, he would come to me then too. And I said, no, I'm too busy. You know, finally, they said, well, what are you too busy with now? A condo?

They didn't listen. I said, you know, my wife said, you know, the real estate isn't going anywhere. It'll be here if that's what you're worried about. She gave you good advice. Yeah, but I said, you know, it's not about that. It's about, it's so daunting to get an entire show put together of songs. I mean, I'm going to go over there and be in like these big venues. He's promising me that you've got thousands and thousands of fans.

And the more he said that, the more frightened I was. Right. And you had to form a band over there. You didn't bring your band. You didn't bring a band with you. That's right. And I had a band that I wanted to bring, and at first he was going to let me, and I thought, great, that's great, that's my security blanket, I've played

with them, they're great. But when he decided it wasn't going to be just one or two concerts in Manila, we were going to travel around the country, his partners all said, oh no, if you're going to bring Dennis Lambert, we must have concerts in Manila. We were going to travel around the country. His partners all said, oh no, if you're going to bring Dennis Lambert, we must have him in Cebu. So all the people that he would do things with said, we got to have him. So okay. And then it became, I can't afford to fly your whole band from city to city. It's just too expensive.

So if we can bring a local band from here, we can rehearse here. And then I don't know why that was so different, but maybe because they're locals, they get a different kind of deal. I don't know. Bottom line, they were already there. There was no international flight necessary.

So I rehearsed in Manila. We felt prepared. I gave myself a little extra protection in how I did the show. So I had live elements. You saw I had a guitar player and background singers, but I had a box that had a lot of pre-recorded tracks. but they were fed to the mixer and they sounded amazing they really did so that's how we did it and uh it was an incredibly uh life-changing and your son jody went with you and made a documentary about it yes which is very wisely he he talked to a few very smart friends and he said look this could be nothing but it could also turn into something crazy. Look at this story. What a journey. I mean, I was saying to Gilbert, one day you're selling condos, and the next day you're performing in Manila for 16,000 people in an arena.

I know. And getting standing ovations. How bizarre. Yeah. It was really bizarre. It's great that you went and did it. It's great that you went and scratched that itch, and so you don't have to go through the rest of your life never knowing. That's so true.

And of course, once I did it and I felt that I prepared properly and reconnected with all of my songs, learned how to play them and sing them and get comfortable again, I didn't want to stop. Once I got back, I said, I have to work with this band that I have locally and do as many gigs as I can because it's too much fun. And now I feel like I can do it.

I'm ready. So we started working. I wish we worked more, but we do, I would say, you know, on an average of maybe 10 gigs a year. Okay. You know, they're usually nice gigs. You know, I go to Joe's Pub in New York. I know. Yeah.

That's how we met you through through mcginty joe mcginty and joe's yeah and i worked i worked at his little club yes and in the philippines it shows i mean when you're on stage it's not other singers doing your stuff it's you and you're like elvis presley yeah not quite i remember my son said dad no dancing there was a point at which i got up hilarious early shows because it was a track i didn't need to sit at the piano so i got up and after the show he said dad no more dancing you know sadak is 80 when you go see him, he dances still. Yeah.

Yeah. I get it. You know. Part of the show. We all feel it. That's right. Of course. I didn't exactly do a tap routine.

I got up and moved a little bit. Your son Jody is a filmmaker. He wrote a movie with Chris Pine and Michelle Pfeiffer that came out, people like us. He's having success in the movie business. And then when the documentary started doing the festival circuit, there was talk of a feature adaptation. And what's going on with all that? Okay, well, I can't tell you too much because of what's going on at this very moment. What I can tell you is that when the economy tanked in 2008,

a lot of the smaller companies that were distributing documentary films went out of business right and had they even not gone out of business i'm not sure that any of them could have afforded to pay the licensing fees we would have needed to pay to get this released commercially as a documentary there's 31 songs in that documentary and everybody wants to get paid yes of course it's a modest amount so it was the reason we couldn't get it released and uh it sat there and and we were very frustrated because in the in the festival circuit where it had played probably in 25 30 festivals around the world around the country It was so well received. It was getting awards.

It was audience favorite. People were falling in love with that little movie. And we thought, what a shame that we can't find a wider audience. But it was going to be in excess of $100,000 to license the music. Got it. The videos. So it's sitting there. And then out of nowhere, Jody gets a call, his agent or somebody that Warner Brothers wants to meet with him.

And he met with them and they said, we know your doc. We've seen it. People on the staff there that Jody knew. And we would like to talk about optioning the rights to do a feature film with Steve Carell as your dad. And, you know, we were excited about it on the one hand and on the other hand we we quickly learned that there wasn't really going to be much of a role for us to play in it they wanted to give it to Carell let him do his thing with his people sure his writers and sure and uh in a vote of two to one J Jody being the vote against the deal, we said, we're going to do the deal with Warners.

And we did. And he was right. Two years later, we got the rights back. They wrote a bad screenplay. Carell didn't like it. The studio didn't like it. Nothing came of it. And so we got it back and it was just sitting there.

it. And so we got it back and it was just sitting there and we were trying to figure out like a few years ago what we could do to resurrect it. Maybe it's not too late, but we were beginning to think it was. And then like once again, and I think it is destiny, Jody gets a call from an executive that he knew who had left a place she'd been and joined a big company and said, tell me about the doc. Does Warner still have it? He said, no, we got it back. She said, you know, truly got it back completely up. Well, I just happened to float the idea the other day in a creative meeting and everybody's eyes lit up and everybody wants to talk about this and and the bosses want to meet you and so he went in and and we have since made a deal with them fantastic and it's in active pre-production bravo uh fingers are crossed you know that's the only thing i can't do because it hasn't been

announced no don't tell us that stuff yeah but it's good but that's great news and this is a story that it's a story that should be told and seen. It's a wonderful idea for a movie. I can tell you that Jody has written an incredibly great screenplay. Great. It's really, really good. And what a tough job to take a doc and be so close to it. Yeah, he's close to the material.

And create a narrative story that works that feels really important and and is entertaining and funny and heartwarming and doesn't lose the the spirit of it the you know the the core of the of the doc is a warm sweet story i think and and i could tell you from all the festivals that i attended that audiences were constantly coming up to us afterwards and saying, this has redefined for me what getting older means and how I need to let go or how I need to rediscover what I love. Yeah, because it's a second act movie. That's right. Yeah. That's right.

Yeah. Wonderful. We loved it. We all watched it. Dara, too. We loved it. Oh, great. Gil Dara, too. We loved it. Oh, great. Gil, you want to let this man return to his life?

Yeah. Well, I can't think of any songs offhand I want to do with you, so I'm going to have to let you go. Okay. Against my best wishes. You know, and there's so much we didn't talk about, Dennis, but we'll do it another time because I'd love to have you tell us that great Gloria Gaynor story that you told me on the phone. Maybe next time the Tom Jones story.

And the Tom Jones story next time, and we'll talk about Glen Campbell next time, too. But we could do a four-hour show with you. If this movie gets made, if we know that it's green-lighted, then I'll let you know that. And then if you decide you want to have me back to talk about that a little, we'll go over some of these other things. I'd love to. I think we'd love to do that. Well, thank you both so much. This was fun. And thank you for the music.

We just want to thank Joe McGinty, too. Our pal Joe McGinty. And Abe Oleksianski. Did I get it right, Abe? Close enough. Let's do it again. Abe Oleksianski. Itianski. Did I get it right, Abe? Close enough. Let's do it again. Abe Oleks... It's hard to say. Holly molly.

Abe Oleksianski. Yeah. There we go. Our engineer. Our guest engineer down in Florida. So, I'm Gilbert Gottfried. This has been Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast with my co-host Frank

Santopadre and we've had the pleasure of talking to the great Dennis Lambert. Dennis, what a treat. Write a memoir for God's sakes. Yeah, I'm working on one. You are? Yeah, in conjunction with the movie. It's all on good faith. If the movie gets made, I'll

finish the book. I mean, I might finish it anyway, but we'll see. These songs have come up on the podcast, as I told you. We've talked about Don't Pull Your Love. I think Gilbert sang

Rhinestone Cowboy by himself about a year ago. Wanton Soldier, we've discussed. So it's great to finally meet the person behind these songs. Thank you. That have meant so much to us.

It's great to meet both of you. I've been a big fan of yours, Gilbert, for a long time. Oh, thank you. There you go. This is fun for me, and I really enjoyed meeting you, Frank. So this is great. A pleasure, Dennis.

We'll talk again. Yeah, write that book, man. Thanks so much. Thank you, pal. Thank you. Okay, see you. Don't pull your love out on me, baby If you do, then I'll thank you, baby

I'll just lay me down Pride for a hundred years Don't pour your love out on me, honey Take my heart, my soul, my money But don't leave me drowning in my tears You say you're gonna leave Gonna take that big white bird Gonna fly right out of here without a single word

But you know you'll break my heart when I want you Close that door, cause I know I won't see you anymore Don't pour your love out on me, baby If you do, then I think that maybe I'll just lay me down Right for a hundred years Don't pour your love out on me, honey Take my heart, my soul, my money But don't leave me drowning in my tears

Haven't I been good to you? What about that brand new ring? Doesn't I been good to you? What about that brand new ring? Doesn't that mean love to you? Doesn't that mean anything? If I threw away my pride And I got down on my knees Would you make me beg you pretty please? Don't throw your love out on me, baby

If you do, then I beg to maybe I'll just lay me down Cry for money again Don't throw your love out on me, honey Take my heart, my soul, my money But don't leave me drowning in my tears There's so much I want to do I've got love enough for two

But I'll never use a girl if I don't have you Don't pour your love out on me, baby If you do, then I think that maybe I'll just lay me down Right for a hundred years Don't pour your love out on me, honey Take my heart, my soul, my money But don't leave me drowning in my tears Don't pour your love out on me, baby

If you do, then I thank you, baby I'll just lay me down, right for a hundred years Don't pour your love out on me, baby If you do, then I think that maybe I'll just lay me down Right for fun today Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast is produced by Dara Gottfried and Frank Santapadre with audio production by Frank Verderosa

Web and social media is handled by Mike McPadden, Greg Pair, and John Bradley-Seals. Special audio contributions by John Beach. Special thanks to John Fodiatis, John Murray, and Paul Rayburn.