Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - GGACP Classic: John Schuck

Episode Date: February 2, 2023

GGACP celebrates the birthday (February 4th) of veteran stage and screen actor John Schuck by revisiting this memorable interview from 2021. In this episode, John looks back at his six-decade career in show business and talks about turning down movie roles, guesting on game shows, canoodling with Elizabeth Taylor, portraying both Herman Munster and Daddy Warbucks and working alongside icons Robert Altman, Warren Beatty, George Burns, Richard Burton and Rock Hudson. Also, Bud Cort takes flight, James Mason goes bowling, Jack Riley and Pat McCormick whistle the national anthem and John pens a love letter to Betty Grable. PLUS: “Holmes and Yoyo’! The Old Philosopher! The magnificent mind of Leonard Stern! In praise of “Dick Tracy”! And John shares memories of Richard Deacon, Jack Gilford, James Karen and Werner Klemperer! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Peloton has everything you need to help you get going. Get a head start on summer with Peloton and choose a flexible payment plan that works for you at onepeloton.ca slash financing. Once is never good enough for something so fantastic. Fantastic! So here's another Gilbert and Franks. Here's another Gilbert and Franks. Here's another Gilbert and Franks. Colossal Podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. Colossal Podcast with my co-host Frank Santopadre. And our guest this week is a talented, popular,

and versatile actor of the stage, as well as the big and small screen. You know his familiar face and voice from feature films like Outrageous Fortune, Just You and Me Kid, Finders Keepers, Second Sight, Butch and Sundance, The Early Years, Dick Tracy, The Curse of the Jade Scorpion, Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home, and Star Trek VI, The Undiscovered Country, The Undiscovered Country, as well as four outstanding films he made with the legendary Robert Altman, Rooster McCloud, McCabe and Mrs. Miller, Thieves Like Us, and of course, M.A.S.H. as the dentist with suicidal tendencies, Captain Painless Waldowski. He's also made dozens of memorable appearances on television shows like Gunsmoke, Mission Impossible, Bonanza, Roots, Fantasy Island, L.A. Law, St. Elsewhere, Law & Order, Babylon 5, NYPD Blue, Star Trek Enterprise, and Star Trek Voyager. And, of course, as the loyal Sergeant Enright on NBC's long-running McMillan and Wife. And we'd be remiss if we failed to mention three shows

we have discussed at length on this very podcast. The New Odd Couple, The Munsters Today, and the last but never least, Holmes and Yo-Yo. But there's more. He's also made a lasting mark in musicals and on Broadway and off-Broadway stage in Annie Get Your Gun, South Pacific, Nice Work If You Could Get It, and both the 1977 and 1997 productions of Annie in the role of Daddy Warbucks. In a career that began way back in regional theater, he's gone on to share the stage and screen with Warren Beatty, Rock Hudson, Christopher Plummer, Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton, Robert Duvall, Glenn Ford, Peter Ustinov, George Burns, as well as former podcast guests Alan Alda, Keith Carradine, John Astin, Lee Merriweather, Dick Van Dyke,

and Treat Williams. Mike and Treat Williams. Frank and I are excited to welcome to the show a performer of many gifts and a particular favorite of yours truly for being the first actor to utter the word fuck in a major motion picture. The charming and talented John Shuck. Thank you. Have you noticed how my last name rhymes with that first word you used?

Yes. Now tell us about the only reason I want you on the show. It's a fucking good reason I'll tell you you now know the language the language rules of the show John or lack thereof so

how did this you know you're my hero now that you're the first one to say fuck well it's a small claim to fame, but it is my own, so I'll have to take that. It all happened because we were shooting the football sequence in MASH, and we were in Griffith Park in Los Angeles. This is where the football game was being photographed.

And Altman had finished everything that he needed to do for the day, and he turned it over to the second unit director. And so this guy, Andy, comes up to me and he says, oh, by the way, we were playing with real football players, you know, these giants, Ben Davidson from the Chicago Bears. I remember Ben Davidson. Yeah, I mean, and I think he went on to have a little bit of an acting career after that. Anyhow, I had to line up opposite Ben Davidson,

and Andy says, just say something that'll make him angry. So I just said, all right, bub, this time your fucking head's coming right off. And that's the last thing I remember for five minutes. He cold cocked. I mean, he just knocked me backwards. I saw stars and birds and Tweety Bird and the whole thing. And they gave me some smelling salts, and I came around, and there he was, all 6'10 of this guy, saying,

I'm sorry, man, but you can't talk about my mother that way, and blah, blah, blah, blah. So the next day, we go to the dailies, and that scene comes up, and Altman liked it so much that Bless has already kept it in. I love it. Andy Sedaris, by the way. Yes, I'm sorry.

I suppose Andy Sedaris became something of a legend. Yes, he did. He was like a poor man's Russ Meyer. Shot a lot of movies with big-breasted women. Yes. Yes. He got into that. Penthouse Pets and things of that nature.

He fell into that trap. Exuberance in that area would sell tickets, I guess. I heard that during the making of MASH that Donald Sutherland and Elliot Gould at first were really

didn't like Robert Altman. They thought he was doing a terrible job. Right. Yeah, that's true. They wanted to have him replaced because Bob was working in an unconventional manner. And Donald was coming off a very successful film for him. So he couldn't afford to have this next one kind of put him into the toilet. And Elliot was in a similar place professionally and uh but uh they tried a little minor rebellion

which lasted maybe a day two days at the most and alton took them aside and talked to him and explained how he works and all of that. And you ended up with these wonderful performances. And after that, they couldn't, well, Donald never worked with him again. No, Gould several times, though. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I want to go back to when Altman saw you.

Did he see you at American Conservatory Theater in San Francisco? I was doing a play by Jules Feiffer called Little Murders. Oh, Shades of Elliot Gould, Shades of Elliot Gould. Shades of Elliot Gould. And all I knew was that this director was coming up to see a wonderful actress, Michael Lerned, who went on to play Ma Walton. And anyhow, we were playing opposite each other, and they'd come up to see her for the part of Lieutenant Dish, the part that Joanne Flug eventually took over with.

And afterwards, we all went to the local bar and got to know each other, and he was very nice, easy to talk to, and I went home wishing Michael every success. I hope that she got the part. Well, she didn't get in the movie, but about a week later, I received a call asking me to look at the part of— Oh, Skerritt's part. Skerritt's part. Yeah, yeah.

They'd offered it to a guy by the name of burt reynolds that's contract player at fox who turned it down oh and so the part was open and i read it and i i really didn't think i was right for it i which i told him and uh he said well thank you very much and then he called back 48 hours after that and said, how about painless? Would you like to do painless? And I said, who's that? He said, well, he's the guy in the Army with the biggest schlong. Another Gilbert Gottfried connection. Right, right.

I know what it feels like. Anyway, to make something long very short. That would be mine. In a delusion of glanger, I took the part. Very good. Very good. You were underwhelmed by the script, I heard you say? I was.

Yeah. Well, it had been written. First movie script you'd ever read. It was. I kept falling asleep, actually, to be honest. Wow. But that was the end of a season, and we were doing like 10 plays at the same time. So you'll forgive my fatigue.

But it was very episodic. And each episode finished, and then the next one would start. And the initial assemblage of the film, once it had been shot, was as Ring had written it. And it was a real sleeper, and nobody was happy. And that's when Altman's genius went to work. And he did a couple of things. He chopped up sequence completely. For example, at the end of When I Have Been Revived by Joanne Flug,

there's a shot of her going away in the helicopter. Yeah. With that beautiful smile. Yeah. Well, that's because she was leaving, and that's what allowed hot lips to come in to replace her. But you would never know that in the movie. You think they're there at the same time. Oh, very interesting.

That's the type of magic that he did. And then what was really brilliant was he added the character of the loudspeaker. Oh. Which was something that wasn't there. Wow, a device used for years in the series. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

And so that, uh, that's how that all got put together. And the difference was magical. They previewed it up in San Francisco and I flew up there and, uh, And I flew up there and got to the theater and a movie called Butch Sundance, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was just wrapping up before ours. And the audience went crazy about that and rightfully so.

So our little picture begins, all the fox suits are there, you know, sitting behind me and nothing the first five minutes. There's no reaction. And I forget what the exact moment was, maybe when they steal the Jeep, that all of a sudden just a subtle shift in energy. And that grew and it grew until we got to the first operating scene and that's this vein that's been broken and blood is spurting out all over the place and i thought the woman in front of me was going to throw up she uh and then so that was the real we had the realism of the first operating scene and then the whole place took off this energy just built and built and built and well at the end of the picture they stood up and cheered for 10 minutes i've never seen anything like it and all the suits are looking at each other like hey we got something

pretty good here and your first movie right out of the box yeah i remember in mash uh elliot gould i think he punches robert duvall yes yes he goes into after after no it's donald donald goes him at breakfast into uh right right punch you and what's what i remember about it it's the first time like in movies you know people throw punches and everything but it's the first time it showed like throwing a punch can be really painful it was a good one and he's like you know yeah he's in great pain after he punches yeah it clocks him on the top of the head after he humiliates bud court he makes bud court right feel that he was responsible for the patient's death. Yes. Yeah, it's terrific.

It is. And a really different kind of part for Duvall, too. Yes, he's never done another one quite like that. No, no. And he, unfortunately, I think he was done in two weeks, maybe even less. They did that sequence first. But a wonderful fellow and sure enjoyed my time with him. Yeah.

Well, shout out one other podcast guest that we've had on this show who was in that movie with you, and that's Carl Gottlieb. Ah, yes. Yes. Also known as Iron Balls McGinty in the show. Carl Gottlieb has this passion for Mustangs. Does he? The Ford kind. At least he did then.

Yes. Every time I saw him in over a 20-year period, he had a new Ford Mustang convertible, usually. He's a fascinating guy. Did you read Mark Harris' terrific book about Mike Nichols, John? No, I did not. You should read it. It's a great read. But notable is that Nichols, who was obviously making Catch-22 around the same time, went to see MASH and became depressed because he realized this was the movie he should have made.

Yes. Well, he's right. Yeah. he should have made. Yes. Well, he's right. Yeah. And I think Mesh... We called it the catch zero.

That Joseph Heller book was so fantastic. Great book. Book of books. It's stupid. It's just as hard to make a bad movie as it is to make a good movie. But what a cast. And Mesh was one of those movies of, like,

one of the first times people are talking over each other. Yes. That was the beginning of that overlapping dialogue, which at that time was the bane of every audio person. You know, the little separation and all the close-ups. You were not allowed to overlap. That was a cardinal sin of movie making and uh that technique was then used in bruce and mcleod and especially in

mccabe and mrs miller yeah even more so but there was a complaint there people felt they couldn't hear the dialogue well they could hear the dialogue, but it's like a symphony orchestra. If you wanted to pick out the oboe, that you couldn't do. But everybody got everything correctly. So as a result of that, for the next picture, the Sam Marlowe detective story with Elliot, I believe it was. He, for the first time, brought a sound mixer onto the set. Oh, the Long Goodbye. Right, and it only had about six knobs on it. It was very primitive.

But that movie was mixed a lot on the set. They'd say, bring up Elliot and this thing. I love that picture. Yeah. Very, very good picture. I mean, talk about, you're in that minority of actors that has a mega hit, and it's his first time up at bat. Yeah. What happened the rest of the time? As we said, you made four excellent pictures for Altman. Well, let's talk a little bit about jumping into Brewster McLeod, which I didn't know, and I've seen Brewster McLeod many times. I didn't know until doing prep for you this week that he was going for a Bergman parody of sorts.

Yes, that's when the bird craps on Stacey Keach's character in the wheelchair. Yes. Yes. In the Bergman one, it was de duve. De duve. So a parody of the parody of the Bergman movie?

It wasn't a parody. It was a trarity. Right, right, right. What a wild film. He and I had our first argument about the ending of that film, in which Bud Cort is flying around the Astrodome, and he is shot down by the police. And I said, that's not how the movie should have ended.

The movie should have ended because Bud Cort failed. He could no longer, you know, fly. So we argued about that for 20-some years. Oh, you did? And one night at a party, he came up to me and said, you know, I've been thinking about Brewster a lot lately. And he said, I think you're right. Oh, wow. So I felt redeemed. You were vindicated. You know, I've been thinking about Brewster a lot lately. And he said, I think you're right.

Oh, wow. So I felt redeemed. You were vindicated. Is that you? It's very hard to tell in the crowd scene. Are you one of the cops leaping to get him in the Astrodome? Or am I mistaken? I don't think I was. I mean, I remember running out in the field

and seeing him actually going around. And then there's that weird Fellini-esque La Strada ending thing where you're the strong man. Yes, exactly. That is a film that is impossible to categorize. It is, and I think of all of his movies, it's my favorite. One of mine, too. I love The Long Goodbye. And I think of all of his movies, it's my favorite. One of mine, too.

I love The Long Goodbye. And Frank and I were talking, you did a love scene in a movie with Elizabeth Taylor. Did he ever? Yes, sir. Tell us about that. I'm trying to think of a name of the movie. Oh, Hammersmith is out. Hammersmith is

out. Thank you. Right. Yes. That's another wild one. Yeah. Sort of Faustian attempt at the Faust story. Well, I was cast as a Texas oil millionaire by the name of Henry Joe Fitch, I think it was. And they were shooting it down in Cuenavaca, Mexico. So, in addition to, know that I'm going to work with Elizabeth Taylor,

Richard Burton, Peter Ustinov, and Bo Bridges is no slouch either. No slouch. It was very, very exciting. I kept pinching myself. And then you fly down to Cuernavaca, which is, if you've ever been there, it's a city behind walls. But you go through these gates, and then vistas open up. There was a wonderful hotel there called Las Mañanitas.

And you walk through the gates, and there's peacocks strutting around. I mean, it was just an amazing, amazing place to shoot. Anyhow, my first day of work, I had spent the night at the hotel and they picked me up. And I was in my dressing trailer there and there's a knock on the door and Ustinov says, have you met Elizabeth? I said, No. And he says, Well, are you ready to shoot? And our first scene was the kissing scene. It took place on a heart-shaped bed. And anyway, he takes me across a quadrangle and knocks on the door,

and in there is Elizabeth Taylor wearing my, the same outfit. Edith Head, I guess, had a, was saving money. The same outfit. It was yellow silk bathrobes. And the first word she said to me is, would you like a mimosa? It was 6.30 in the morning. Wow.

And, of course, I said yes. So we had a mimosa. We talked. And Peter said, well, why don't we go to the set? And so we did the scene. And I was aware after the first take of the kissing part, that Richard Burton was lurking, peeking through curtains to see who this guy was that was kissing his wife. Anyway, I couldn't believe it.

There you are looking into the eyes. You're four inches away, and you're getting closer and closer and closer into the most beautiful woman in the Western Hemisphere. Even at that time, she was extraordinary. And you're a young actor still. Yeah, I'm a nobody. And I felt bad, though, because I kept messing up, and we had to do that kiss over and over. It kept messing up, and we had to do that kiss over and over. That movie's on YouTube.

You can watch it. I'll tell our listeners. Yeah, I watched it last night. I found it, and it's an oddity. I had seen it years and years ago. It is. But Burton plays this kind of a Hannibal Lecter character. I never knew what it was. A maniac in a straitjacket who's let out of an institution.

And it's a maniac in a straight jacket who's let out of an institution. And it's a black comedy. It's a black comedy, but a very poor one. But Ustinov was tons of fun. He supposedly was directing the picture. But just before you're ready to do a scene, he's doing imitations of a 1954 Chevy having a nervous breakdown. Oh, because he's in it, too. He's in it, too. Yes. Right, right, right. of a 1954 Chevy having a nervous breakdown. That type of thing. Oh, because he's in it, too. He's in it, too.

Yes. Right, right, right. Right. I just have to go back to Brewster McLeod real quick. Gilbert, produced by Lou Adler, record producer Lou Adler, and Papa John Phillips. Yes. Of all people.

Did you meet Papa John? I did at a cocktail party just prior to the shooting in Houston, Texas is where we made it. And I have to ask if you met Margaret Hamilton, too. Yes, I did. Yes. And she was from Cleveland. Oh, I'd been at the Cleveland Playhouse, which is where I started out right out of college. And so we knew many people.

She was a charming, charming woman and still has not alleviated the nightmares I have about that character with the green face flying around. Yeah, there's even a little homage. There's a Wizard of Oz homage, a couple of them in Brewster McCloud, but one involving her death scene. Yes. Yes. Yeah. People should see it. Now, Richard Burton was one of those legendary drinkers. Did you witness anything like that?

Yes. I think it's safe to say I did. He's not going to sue us, John. I was invited to dinner and it was the weirdest thing. They had this beautiful rented house, and we had a cocktail and then went into the dining room. Richard sat at the head. I was to his left. Elizabeth was to his right. And the rest of the table was empty. There was nobody else except members of the family and some, I don't know what they did,

about seven people were sitting in chairs up against the wall watching us eat. It was very bizarre, But he was quite drunk. Wow. And it had just been his birthday. And all of a sudden, he started chastising Liz for giving him a golf cart for their yacht. He wanted a real car. Not a golf cart.

Wow. And he was making this known that he was unhappy with his gift. And he kept going on and on about it. And she just sort of sat there and then finally turned to me and said, Isn't this the stupidest thing you've ever seen? People who have yachts like we do and to want a real car on top of it that would never be used. Isn't that funny?

And she started laughing. So she had some perspective on their excesses. She was like that. She was very down to earth. That's great. Refreshing. Yeah. But when he was sober,

and he only worked part of the day at that point, until about 2 o'clock, and then they sent him home. He was the most erudite man I think I've ever met. They had two little

Pekingese dogs that were running around. Lovely. They were very nice dogs. Very well trained. And I picked one of the dogs up and asked Richard, what's this dog's name? And he said, Inso. I said, what? Inso is from Shakespeare. And then he proceeds to recite this whole thing with the word in so.

So I'm, you know, two pushed in people with noses pushed in me and this Pekingese is standing there listening to this great actor with that voice do a Shakespeare for us. It was wonderful. And because it's my job to put, get people on the spot, Gilbert, would you like to favor john with a little bit of your uh richard burton and james mason and the honeymooners alice norton and i during period the grand high exalted Mystic Rulers are having a Berlin tournament. And Richard Burton as Norton.

I can't go booing. Trixie's mother is coming over. And Jack Nicholson as Alice. You can't fucking go bowling around. Bravo. Do you know I used to work in the concessions in the Broadway theaters? Like for their fruit juices. And I would see Richard Burton every night in Equus.

Yes. And it was, with one particular whole school nugget, the boy embraces. The animal digs his sweaty brow into the boy's cheek, and they stand for an hour like a necking couple and of all nonsensical things i keep thinking about the horse not the boy the thoughts and what thoughts it may be thinking thoughts totally beyond propagating its own kind or filling its belly what thoughts could those be? Not to remain a horse any longer? Not to stay reined up in its particular genetic vows?

These thoughts are more than vaguely worrying. They are, in fact, subversive. Wow, Bill. You retained that from Equus from 40 years ago? Yes. Yes. You must have paid a lot of attention to your work. Gil, what period was that?

Was that late 70s? Mid 70s? Oh, yeah, I guess so. That would be like early 70s. It was the 70s because I was doing Annie when I was playing. Yeah, I was going to say, if you went down the street, you could have seen John and Annie. He's doing that, and I'm singing, NYC. Let's go back to Altman and talk. Since you mentioned McCabe and Mrs. Miller, one of my favorites.

And Gilbert mentioned the famous Altman overlapping dialogue. I mean, the complaints about that film was that some of the dialogue was uh incomprehensible yes but it wasn't really it's not i watched it again last night i i own it and it's such a wonderful movie yes uh we shot that in british columbia vancouver uh in west van at the top of a housing development. The top of the hill was all virgin territory with forests and had this large clearing, and that's where we built the set. And when I say built the set, the set was built as we shot the movie. And the carpenters and everybody got so into it

that they threw away their power tools and started building everything with hand tools. Wow. And as a result, the construction fell far behind. We had to take a couple days off while they caught up as a result, and they weren't allowed to do that anymore. But that was a wonderful shoot. We had parties there.

You know that wonderful scene where the marvelous actor Bob Fortier does his drunken ice dance? Well, that pond was there. We used to skate on it at night. And it was marvelous. Keith was here a couple of years ago. I'm sorry, who was? Keith Carradine was here with us on the show a couple of years ago. And he told us his very young actor. That was Keith's first movie, wasn't it? Yes, who was it? Keith Carradine was here with us on the show a couple of years ago, and he told us his very young actor.

That was Keith's first movie, wasn't it? Yes, I believe it was. I think so, yes. I believe it was. And it was your scene where they sing the theme to MASH. Oh, back in Auburn. Yes, Suicide is Painless. Now, that song, the tune was written by Johnny Mandel,

who sadly just passed away recently. But the lyrics were written by Altman's son, who at that time, Bobby, was I guess 13 years old. He just did it one night and showed it to his dad. His dad said, hey, this is pretty good, and gave it to Mandel, and that became the song. I don't know if this is one of those bullshit things you read on the internet, but supposedly Altman's son made much more money off of MASH

because of the song's residuals than Altman himself. Yes, I would imagine that's true. Which is kind of nuts. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast, but first, a word from our sponsor.

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for a limited time only at participating McDonald's restaurants in Canada. Tell us about Warren. You would go on to work with Warren and Dick Tracy later. By the way, a movie Gilbert auditioned for. But we'll table that for the moment. Okay. I want to hear about that.

Yeah. Tell us about Beatty. Because it's fun to know that McCabe and Mrs. Miller, which in many ways is a grim picture, was a lively, fun set. Well, it was a lively fun set well it was a lively fun set um but not without difficulty uh i think it helped the fact that uh julie christie was starring opposite them and they were a couple at that time and uh so he was happy he felt good and he liked the script and he he seemed to enjoy what bob was doing but i do remember this one night it's in a scene at the at mccabe's and it begins with me walking over and picking a cat up oh you pick the cat off the poker table yeah and dropping it on the ground

and that's a little scene wasn't that long. It was maybe five, six lines. But for some reason, Warren got a bug up himself there, and he wanted to do it over and over and over again. And after about the ninth time, Altman said, well, listen, it's late. Warren, you direct the scene, and I'm going home. And so Warren did. slate warren you direct the scene and i'm going home and uh so warren did and we must have done it another 10 11 times because we were there another good and i finally said can we find another beginning i'm dropping this poor cat on the ground for an hour here you know this is not good

the ground for an hour here. You know, this is not good. Anyhow, finally, Warren said, that's it. I'm satisfied. And we go home. On my way out, though, I said to Vilma Sigmund, the photographer, boy, that was a lot of film we used. He said, no, not too much. I said, what do you mean? He said, after Bob went home, I stopped putting any film in the camera. Oh! That's great. I was going to ask if you'd ever seen any examples of the famous Beatty perfectionism,

but you answered the question. That's it. I didn't have to ask. Yeah, I once auditioned for Dick Tracy, and I auditioned for Warren Beatty, and the talk was, oh, you're perfect for that. Yes, yes. You're just perfect. You're exactly what we want.

And then I'm talking to my agent, and my agent says, oh, they found someone else. And I said, who? And they said, Dustin Hoffman. I don't know when my name with Dustin Hoffman would be, I've seen Gilbert Gottfried's acting, and he's known Dustin Hoffman. Well done, Gil. Your story is much better than mine, but he called me and said, John, would you do me a favor?

I said, what? He said, well, I'm doing this Dick Tracy movie, and I'd like you to be one of the reporters. He says, it's not a big part, but it's important. You know, not the usual stuff. And so I said yes. But in a negotiation for the day's work, I couldn't get any billing

nothing I was told it was unavailable that there wasn't any and no one was getting any in those roles so I go to work and was being shot in back uh lot at uh warner brothers and or universal i forget which one i think it was warner brothers and it was hot i mean it was 90 some degrees at least and there's pacino with this full head of makeup, you know, latex and wigs and glue.

I don't know. Cool as a cucumber. Well, how could you tell? The latex doesn't sweat. But nevertheless, he seemed to be that very playing chess with one of the crew guys, you know, that type of thing. So we're sent to the makeup trailer, me, Alan Garfield, and a couple of other people.

Oh, the late Alan Garfield. Yes. Just lost him. They go, but I don't think he was Alan Garfield then. He kept changing his name. Gorwitz. Orwitz, that's what he was. He was Orwitz.

And so I was the last to go into the makeup trailer. So I was the last to go into the makeup trailer. Each person going in is, you'd hear, get him a nose, get those ears, and so on like that. I step into the trailer. The guy says, oh, you're fine. That had to hurt, John. I don't get no respect. I like that film. I mean, it's got issues.

And the narrative is a little bit clunky, to be kind. But it is a beautiful-looking picture. It is that. And the production design is stunning. It's absolutely stunning. Yeah. And the costumes and the makeup. Some great performances.

And did you have any dealings with Pacino? No. The only thing I said to Pacino was, Queen's Rook to Knight Two. No, I didn't say anything to him. Do you think it would have been a better picture with Gilbert as Mumbles? I do. We could have understood him.

Do you think Midnight Cowboy would have been better with me? I think it would have made more money. John, before we get into the good stuff, like Holmes and Yo-Yo, let's talk about... I want to talk about Thieves Like Us too, which I found I was texting John saying I could not find it because it wasn't streaming I got a DVD I had it rushed to me

had seen it years ago, great part for you great sizable part for you it was one of the leads he was a half-breed Indian yeah, Chickama Chickama Mobley Yeah, it was one of the leads. He was a half-breed Indian. Yeah. Chickamaugh. Chickamaugh Mobley.

This was a gangster picture that had been made once before called They Travel by Night, I believe. Oh, yeah. It's a Nicholas Ray picture. Nicholas Ray. Yeah. Totally different movie. I mean, they're not even recognizable outside of the fact that these gangsters. We were bank robbers. Keith Carradine had the male lead with Shelley Duvall as his love interest.

Louise Fletcher was in it. Yeah. Her husband, Jerry Bick, was one of the producers. And Burt Remsen, who was a former Hollywood casting director who had his body absolutely shattered by a falling crane. Oh, I didn't know that. And somehow got himself back together, but he walked with a limp. Yeah. And in the book, my character walked with a limp,

the reason being that the way he escaped from prison was he chopped his toes off so he could slide, get the the toe chains that were holding him in prison but so and in the movie Burt had the limp and I this half-breed Indian who was a really mean guy. And I loved playing it because it was a chance to do something that was totally different than I had done in any of the other Altman pictures or in Moonshine War, which is the only other movie I had done. And it was a great experience. We shot it in Mississippi, in the Kudzu,

and it was just wonderful. I loved it. There wasn't a day that I wasn't eager to get to work. It was my first time in the South, which even at that time was still had not come into the 20th century in fact there was an incident we were on location there were three cops who were looking out for us that day guarding the highways and stuff like that two white guys and a black guy and at this one location second location of the day there's all this gunshot going on

bam bam we couldn't finish a scene because there'd be bam bam so they sent the black guy down to get this gun stuff stopped and then we find out from the other cops that the shots are coming from a Ku Klux Klan rifle range, and they thought that was really funny, sending him down there to stop them shooting. Oh, my God. That kind of thing. So there was a lot of work to be done there. This is 74, right? This is 74, yeah.

But the lushness of that countryside, the hospitality of the people and everything was was terrific it's a good looking picture and it's a beautiful poetic movie yeah it is it's slow very slow but it's and it was gorgeously lit by a french uh uh lighter lighting man by the name of Jean Boufty, a photographer, rather, who did all his own lightning. And he used, most of the time, he didn't use big Hollywood equipment. He used small little PARs, you know, like the lights you put in your outside lights. Yeah.

To illuminate your yard and stuff. And he created these pictures that were rich and saturated colors. It was just phenomenal. Good picture. And what was it like working with George Burns? Well, George, I loved him. I didn't know what to expect. The man was a perfectionist.

He rehearsed scenes for, I don't know, 45 minutes, sometimes an hour, until he felt it was ready to shoot. It was an honor working with him. He was wonderful. And then he'd say, I think you'd do better to say this, like with a pause. He had his cigar. He was great.

I can't do it, obviously, but he was terrific. How great you're getting timing tips from George Burns. That's just you and me, kid, with Brooke Shields. And notable because Gilbert also in that cast, Key Luke and Carl Ballantyne. Yes. And Ray Bolger. Ray Bolger.

Oh. Phil Silvers. And Burl Ives. And Burl Ives, yeah. Yeah. Can you tell us anything about any of those people? They were very good. I can't.

I'm not hemming and hawing. I didn't have any scenes with them. So I really didn't. I watched the shooting of maybe one. I got to work with Burl Ives later on in a little movie shot up in Park City, Utah. And gosh, he was a fascinating guy um he didn't sing for us but he did have he did he did he did sing for the uh house uh on american activities committee however he did do that but he he he was one of those and i'm terrible because i can't remember anecdotes at all for the

most okay but but he was full of them. And then it turned out that we shared the fact that we had a love of sailing. And so we talked about that quite a bit. You played the nosy neighbor. Notable because that was written and directed by a man who was active in your career. Leonard Stern. The. Leonard Stern. The great Leonard Stern, who would have been a wonderful guest on this show.

He would have. What a career. Leonard Stern wrote for all early television. He wrote for Sid Caesar, The Honeymooners. He produced The Honeymooners. He did a lot with Gleason. Wrote for Bilko. And that's right.

Yeah. He sort of was like the hidden talent along with Mel Brooks and other writers of that period. Well, he developed Get Smart for television. I mean, after Buck and Mel, I guess, came up with the concept. But Gilbert, he also wrote Abbott and Costello movies

and a Bowery Boys movie. Bowery Boys movie? He did. Leonard Stern. Yeah, he was great. And he invented Mad Libs. Well, he owned a publishing company, and actually it was Roger Price who invented the Mad Lib. Oh,

I have this wrong. Yeah, it was, I mean, the Mad Lib. Oh, I have this wrong. Yeah, it was. I mean, Leonard helped and encouraged all that. But for those, does anybody remember Droodles anymore? I remember Droodles. Yeah. So a Droodle would be something like you would draw on a piece of paper upside, upside. And what is that? That's a worm going upstairs.

And then you would draw, that's a worm going downstairs. You know, that type of thing. He strikes me as a brilliant guy who did a little bit of it. By the way, Gilbert, married to Julie Adams from Creature of the Black Lagoon. That was his first wife, yes. Leonard Stern, Interesting man. Also created Run, Buddy, Run, Gil. And he and she.

I'm Dickens, he's Fenster. And I'm Dickens, he's Fenster, which is why he went on to work with Ashton so much. Yeah. Oh, God. Mori. Oh, yes. Why is his name jumping out of my head?

Marty Ingalls. Marty Ingalls. Marty Ingalls and John Ingalls from John Ash. Yeah. But he also created a little show called Macmillan and Wife. Well, that was, yes. He did. I was just finishing up McCabe and Mrs. Miller, and I got a phone call from my agent, Wally Hiller, and he said, And Leonard Stern called, and he thinks you'd be very right for this NBC movie of the week with Rock Hudson. And he said, the part isn't well written, but he thinks you could do something with it. So I read the script and said, yeah, I'd love to.

Yeah. And I was shooting it in San Francisco, my old stomping ground. So I was more than willing to go for a couple weeks up there. So we did it. And it was called Once Upon a Dead Man. It was almost a full-length movie that we shot in a couple of weeks. And I had no idea that NBC was planning or considering putting it into the mystery wheel that they had at that time. Sure. The NBC mystery movie.

Movie, excuse me. Yeah, yeah. Those were great. So it ended up being six wonderful years, yes. Yeah. And what can you tell us about Rock Hudson? Rock Hudson, you know, what a fabulous career he had. And he was an extraordinary man.

It was so sad the way his life ended yeah he was a better better man than that and deserved more uh than i mean he did achieve the fact that aids and again with his friend elizabeth taylor's help became uh something to talk about and be aware of and all that. But he, from the very first day, treated me as an equal. He was always very well prepared as an actor. And the thing I admired most about Roy, as we called him, or liked to be called, is that he really wanted to become a better actor.

And he was not afraid to try things. He did I Do, I Do with Carol Burnett on stage. They toured around the country. He did a production that probably made a nickel of John Brown's body that ran for a couple of months. He did... that uh has ran for a couple of months he he did um oh he was in that movie it's a really a movie i write yes oh the frankenheimer second sure yes good movie i mean he was not a pretty boy he was an actor and uh and then when you see what his performance was like in giant oh yeah my lord

so he wasn't content to be a movie star he wanted to he wanted to really develop his craft yeah yeah it it's a shame i mean for so many actors we we wanted to get tab hunter on this show as well but it's just who i guess was a similar journey and and being closeted for so long. Yes. Not only the way that, as you say, he came to a sad ending, something that he didn't deserve, but also all of those years in silence, not being able to speak his truth, not being able to be who he was. It's so unfortunate, but i suppose that's the industry

it is the industry and i mean he even got married for peace sake married his secretary yeah yeah uh to hide this but there there were there was a whole bunch of those guys and when you went over to parties and stuff like it was i had the honor to meet them guys like tab hunter and uh it was it was they're just terrific people they're just wonderful great uh they were good parties and it didn't help that doris day would be there or ava gardner or you know that type of type of thing so that's that's been my only i'm not a hollywood person i'm not party person. That just happened to be a perk that went with a wonderful experience. We should remind our listeners that John is not living the Hollywood life. He is in Franklin, Tennessee.

Yes. Living the good life. My wife and I pulled up stakes about 11 years ago. I think we saw the handwriting on the wall or the tents on the beach or something. Anyway, we moved to Franklin and have been very happy there. And what a nice thing that he treated you. Obviously, you're a second banana on that show. Yeah.

And he's treating you like an equal from day one. From day one. But, I mean, he was that way with Susan, who was his co-star. Great Susan St. James. St. James. What? I said the great Susan St. James. Oh, the great.

Oh, I thought you said the late. No. You scared the bejesus out of me. No, no. And the funny thing is, I'm wearing my new hearing aids. I'm taking them back in the morning. You watch the show now, and of course, would you agree with me that sometimes you can see chemistry between the actors on the screen? You can see people getting along?

Yes, absolutely. I watched the second episode, and the three of you were in a car, and you're doing some kind of, I imagine it was scripted by Stern, some kind of bit, it's almost like a Marx Brothers bit about barrels. Yes. Certain kind of barrels. And it's very clear that you and Rock and Susan, and I think Nancy Walker too, had this kind of rapport. Yes, I agree.

It comes across. In fact, I think it was the success of the show. Because the first year, we didn't do that well. We literally were renewed on Columbo's coattails because Peter's show, Peter Falk's show, became the hit, the one-way hit. And so people started tuning in at that time, and we were able to pick up our audience that way by the second season.

Shall we drop Mrs. McMillan off at the house, sir? No, she's going with us. She's anxious to find out if we can locate her china. One of our barrels was missing. I see. What have you found out, Henry? Well, we're off to see Mr. Buchanan, who runs the moving company, sir. We've searched both kinds of barrels and storage there, and there's no barrel with a body in it. What do you mean, both kinds of barrels and storage there and there's no barrel with a body in it what do you mean both kinds of barrels well it seems there are two kinds of barrels sir there are storage barrels and there are shipping barrels and the barrels we received are what

shipping barrels right now i found it's not possible to store a shipping barrel but a shipping barrel you can store i'm not sure i follow that well let me simplify things there are two kinds of barrels there are shipping barrels and there are storage barrels a shipping barrel you can store and ship but a storing barrel you can only ship. I mean store. So you can ship a shipping and you can store a shipping, but for storing you can only ship. I mean store. You mean you can ship a shipping barrel and store a storing barrel, but you can't ship a storing barrel?

No, no. You can store and ship a shipping barrel, but you can't ship a storing barrel. Got to ask you, Gilbert and I were on the phone talking about you and your career before, and I went to Macmillan and Wife's IMDb page, and my God, what a list of the 20th century's greatest character actors. Yes. I'm talking about Richard Deacon, Murray Hamilton, Jack Guilford, William Demarest, Werner Klemperer, Slim Pickens, Wally Cox, Keenan Wynn, Roddy McDowell, Nehemiah Persoff.

Yes. Even Buddy Hackett and Jack Carter, I'll throw in there. Buddy Hackett, you know, he wanted us to know that he carried a gun on his ankle. There you go. And then he dealt with it. That's come dealt a lot. That's come up a lot. Do you remember any of those other character actors

Frank mentioned? Oh, absolutely. That was the fun thing. You never knew who was being cast and you just couldn't believe it. Richard Deacon was great. Funny man.

We both shared a love of food, and so he would have recipes. And once he invited the cast over to the house and made us a wonderful meal. William Demarest. My God. I mean, I grew up watching him. What a list of people and uh oh i'm sorry i'm drawing a blank who played the kid in the silent picture uh oh jackie coogan yeah yeah coogan my god yeah i said jackie you know you you're you were married to my first love. And he says, who's that? And I said, Betty Grable. And as a kid, I had.

I'd fallen madly in love with Betty Grable. And this is like a third grade. And I wrote her a letter asking her to marry me. Oh, great. But she wrote back. And she said, that was very nice of me. And she wished she could marry me, but she already had a husband. And it was a really lovely, lovely thing.

Fantastic. If I could only find that letter, I would have insured it like her legs, I guess. And Murray Hamilton? Murray, of course, was on every movie and television for 30 years. Big, great career. Oh, my Lord. It was extraordinary. We even had 12 guests on this podcast, John, who were on Macmillan and Wife.

How about that? Gino Conforti, Charlotte Ray, Barbara Felden, Emmett Walsh, Jimmy Caron, Gilbert's friend, Bernie Coppell, Barbara Barry, the great Julie Newmar, Tony Roberts, Peter Bonners, Jessica Walter, who we just lost, sadly, and John Astin. And Johnny. How about that? Well, you know, we share a—who did you say was your friend there? Oh, James Caron. James Caron. Who did you say was your friend there? Oh, James Cairns. James Cairns.

James Cairns sponsored me for the Friars Club. Not the Friars Club, the Players Club. Oh! And we became very good friends. I was sort of sad, but delighted that at the end of his career, he flourished. Yes. He had all these wonderful movies and parts and and finally was able to you know become a very recognizable actor which was wonderful sweetest sweet man and and he's like you

he knows he had a memory that was a steel trap you know it wasn't a name you could mention or think of. He was friends with Buster. Huh? He was friends with Keaton. With Keaton, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he was friends with everybody. Yeah, I remember one time I went over to James' house, and it was a running thing that he owned one of Keaton's hats.

Oh. And he would have his guests pose wearing Keaton's hat. That's great. Do you have a picture of that? Of course I can't find it. Of course. It's with the Betty Grable letter. It's with my Betty Grable letter, yeah.

But of course I can't find it anywhere, but I remember. Wow. You know, Gilbert and I get a kick out of how in those days, the same actors would recur in different parts over and over again. Yes. So I randomly picked two Macmillan and Wife episodes. I picked the second episode, which I believe was directed by our friend John Astin. Yes, it was.

No, it was the first one of the series. First one of the series. Yes. Yeah. And there's Gilbert. there's Vito Scotti. Yes. And Kenneth Mars. And then I said, no, no, now I'm going to watch it with my wife. We loved it.

Now I'm going to watch an Enright episode. I'm going to watch a Shuck-specific episode. And I settled on Cop of the Year, which is the one where you're framed for the murder. Yeah, it's my ex-wife, Lorraine. Your ex-wife. Sid Sheinberg's wife, Lorraine Gary. Lorraine Gary. Five minutes into it,

there's Vito Scotti and Kenneth Mars. That's right. And Paul Winchell. Oh, I forgot about that. And a cameo, Mac goes to a movie set to interview a director about how a squib works.

Because it turns out she caused her own death with a squib. Yeah, she shot it. To this day, that makes no sense. No sense whatsoever. You know, this wonderful playwright, Oliver Haley, was the story director before Steve Bochco came in. And Oliver, he was a great playwright, but he's very excited he comes up.

He says, this next episode is your episode. He said, I felt it was time. He said, I wanted to really write something for you. So I was all excited when I read the script. And I read that plot, and I said, what the hell is, this is not going to make a lot of sense. We're not going to make this, are we? And I hid from him because every time that week he would come by,

he wanted to find out if I was having a good time, did I enjoy it? Now, we can't be nice to you any longer. Yes. Talk to us about Holmes and you. Also created by Leonard Stern. Also created by Leonard Stern. Created by Leonard Stern. Well, it wasn't. I must say.

All right, guys. It was a crap show. Come on. It was well intended. It was an attempt by Leonard to get back to two-man comedy like Abbott and Costello or you name your duo. Of course, it never turned out

to be that. But several interesting things happened. The craftspeople that could make something funny no longer existed in Hollywood. For instance, if you wanted to take a phone and some guy pours water in at one end and it comes out

and hits the other guy in the face, those gags, they didn't know how to recreate. How interesting. We had a radio that was, I forget what it was. And I remember it couldn't do things. There were a number of things. I'm bab it was. And I remember it couldn't do things.

There were a number of things. I'm babbling here. Maybe that was one of the problems with the show. But we worked hard at it. John Astin directed most of them. We did a lot of naughty things. We rewrote Richard Schull, a wonderful actor and an interesting man. We worked 18, 19-hour days for that show.

And it just was definitely a dud. Interestingly enough, the previews for it were shown on ABC during the Super Bowl. And so for our first night, we had the highest rated show of the year. Oh, interesting. It went quickly down. I mean, by today's standards, we went down like from a 22 to 16. I always thought of it as Leonard trying to take Dick Godier's Jaime the Robot from Get Smart and spin it off into his own series. Although you had the $6 million man and the bionic woman were going strong at that time.

That's right. So you could understand the thinking. I also think we made a—and here I had my argument with Leonard. In the pilot, there's an accident, and I fall apart on the street. And as a result, Dick Schull knows that I'm a robot. And I said, that should never have happened. He shouldn't know that I'm a robot. That way, there's much more conflict about why can't I act like normal people and blah, blah and all that kind of stuff but um it it was what it was and we did our 18 shows and

i did have the honor that year though with it of being the first actor to be on two television national television series on two different networks there you go. Oh, Macmillan and Wife and Holmes and Yo-Yo. Right. Very good. You know, we joke about it because it's easy to poke fun at shows.

I joke about it. Yeah, of course. But you have to applaud Stern for trying to bring back that kind of classic comedy form to primetime. And you know, we never made a pilot for it. Jackie Cooper directed the... we had a scene and jackie cooper directed it and we went up into sid scheinberg's office and moved all his furniture away and dick and i did the scene and on the basis of that performance he he let the show

go on the air. So we never made a pilot, which was unusual. Why did the android have a Russian name? Why was he Yo-Yo? Gregor Yo-Yo-novich? Yo-Yo-novich. Why wasn't he just Yo-Yo? Maybe they couldn't find the Scandinavian one? You've got four partners in the hospital come on alex you're a good cop by the way who's my new partner

we call him yo-yo he weighs 4 pounds. He's a completely mobile computer, specially programmed for police work. Is he indestructible? We think so. Send in Holmes. This is top secret. No one, including Holmes, must know his identity. Alex, no, don't! You're not a person.

You're not going to tell them? In my book, you got to make himself a good cop. That's what I put in my report. One episode was directed by Jack Arnold. I don't know if you'd remember this. Gilbert, the director of Creature from the Black Lagoon, Incredible Shrinking Man, and Tarantula. He also...

Wow. Is that trivia? He also did The Mouth That Roared. Did you know that movie? I did not. Peter Sellers. Peter Sellers. Peter Sellers. He was the worst director I've ever

worked for. Oh no! I couldn't wait till that week was over. Oh no! Speaking of directors, I did want to tuck in that Macmillan and Wife episode where Mac goes to the movie set to learn about the Squibs. There's a cameo from George Seaton, the director of Miracle on 34th Street.

Oh, my Lord. Of all people, which got me excited. Well, he must have done it as a favor for Rock. He must have. Yeah. He must have. Oh, and do you remember anything about Jack Albertson? Well, Jack was in the pilot, and we became friends.

And so for years afterwards, he didn't do the series because he was working on Broadway. I think he was doing one of the Simon plays, Neil Simon plays. I think he was in the Sunshine Boys, Jack Albertson. I think that's what they were doing. Yeah. Yeah. And because I remember going to New York

and running into him on the street. And he said, what are you doing? I said, well, what are you doing? He said, oh, I'm doing the show tonight. I've got to go. I said, oh, well, that's too bad. Maybe we could have a drink afterwards or something. He said, no, come and talk to me.

Come and talk to me. So he invited me. That was my first time backstage of a Broadway theater. And lovely guy. That's cool. You backstage of a Broadway theater and a lovely guy. That's cool. You know, we could do a whole show with you running down those names and McMillan and wife one day we'll do this. It's like,

they're like 400 wonderful actors listed there and, and actresses to Edie Adams. I mean, it just, just so many great people pass through those doors. Yeah. You know, every year at the end of the season, they would have a cast party and invite everybody who'd been on the show that season.

Wow. It was terrifying because, of course, you walk in and there's a sea of familiar faces, but you can't remember anybody's name. It's terrifying. Well, all of them were those, your classic, oh, that. Gilbert, go to the IMDb page later and look at Macmillan and Wife. And I'm, you know, for a show like this, John, and John, we want to point out, too, as a listener to the show, which we appreciate, John. Yes, I do listen.

We're very kind. And I'm looking at these names, and my heart is breaking. Oh my God, to have Jack Guilford, to have Roddy McDowell, to have just had an opportunity, a shot at Murray Hamilton and Guilford and so on, just to have a shot at these people. Gilbert, you'll be enthralled if you go look at that list. It was so much fun. And later, It was so much fun. And later, excuse me, I've got a little frog. Later, I was doing a play in the 80s in London,

starring Charlton Heston and Ben Cross and myself, of Kane Mutiny. And one night as I'm coming out of the theater, there's Jack Guilford with his wife. I said, Jack, what are you doing here? Well, it turns out he was just down the street at another theater doing one of his shows. Right. And so we got to see each other a lot and see the sights of London.

A wonderful man. Yeah, another guy. A wonderful man of a part of theater that of course is gone forever and a unique clown. He was a true clown. He could make you cry in about five seconds. I mean, he was remarkable.

Gilbert, did you meet gilford in your travels me no never met him well i'm sorry you would you would have loved him oh yeah we will return to gilbert gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this take control of your phone plan with chatter mobile Mobile. Score big with nationwide prepaid plans from only $15 a month on Canada's number one prepaid mobile provider, Chatter Mobile. Visit ChatterMobile.com for details.

I gotta pick one bone on McMillan and wife. Okay. Why the hell doesn't the police commissioner carry a gun? That's an interesting question. You're doing all the shooting he's jumping off towers he's tackling people why were they maybe because they knew he was a pussycat you know i gotta tell you one one one story we most of the time between scenes we go into roy's trailer and we would we would go over the next scene and stuff. But sometimes we would play cards.

But this one year, Nancy Walker was a great, what do you call that, needle pointer. And Rock said, well, I've always wanted to do that. So she started teaching him something. So the rest of us are sitting there and we all learned how to do a simple cross stitch and some i was working on a belt and somebody else was doing roy was doing the pianos and then rosie greer happened to guest star on the show the la rams football sure oh thank you yes and And his hobby was needle pointing. I remember him doing it on The Tonight Show and all that stuff.

So anyhow, Rosie and Rock are sitting at the front, and I'm at a table facing the front. Nancy's on a little divan, and Mark Reedall, the makeup man, is there, and he's tatting away. We're all doing our thing here. And all of a sudden, there's a knock, the door opens, and in walks John Wayne, who looks at us, needles in the air, looks at us. Needles in the air. And turns around saying, Jesus Christ.

And slams the door. And Rock goes, ooh. Think I better go after him. Anyhow, it was hysterical. Fantastic. Here's a question from a listener for you, John. Mark Skoback, was John considered at any point for the MASH TV show?

I was. They came to me and asked if I would consider doing it. And I said, well, the part's a sexual joke. There's no real story. I mean, what are you going to do with it? They said, yeah, well, that's what we're looking for is some sort of sexual element. So I said no. They hired another actor as Boltowski,

and I think it lasted maybe two episodes. But during that period of time, that's when they came up with Jamie Farr's character of the cross-dresser, which was great. It was visual. It was funny. It was perfect for that show. Did being in a hit like MASH so early on in your career? I mean, maybe it's a dumb question, an obvious question.

I mean, did it help a lot? Yes, I think in retrospect it did. Yeah. It opened a lot of doors right away. I don't... I was also a bit of a snob. I turned down stuff I probably shouldn't have. And so eventually, once Macmillan took over, the movie momentum sort of dwindled. I see.

And I began, I think there was quite a gap there between some of them. So you were a movie snob who was turning down TV roles? No, I was a movie snob turning down movies. Oh. Do you remember, or do you want to say which? Well, there was one with Bert, excuse me, Bert Reynolds

and Liza Minnelli. Lucky Lady. Lucky Lady that I was, it was George Cukor directed. No, it was Stanley Donnan. Oh, it was Stanley Donnan. That was it. Yeah. But the idea of spending all day in a boat rocking back and forth with just a few lines didn't appeal to me.

Were you up for the Hackman part? No, no. It wasn't the lead at all. I don't even remember. But it was a fairly substantial role. But I turned it down. And in retrospect, I think it was a group of people that it would have been good to work with, with an extraordinary director. Sure. How could it have hurt?

Here's another one. Stan Schwartz says, this is not a question, but my sister was on $10,000 Pyramid. This is something you both have in common, because Gilbert did the show recently. Oh, it's back. With John Shuck and Bill Cullen in the mid-70s. I got to watch from the audience at the LEC, am I saying that right? The LEC Theater? On West

58th? LEC, excuse me. On West 58th Street, shame on me, I'm a New Yorker, I should know how to pronounce that. A good time was hard by all, and they gave us all flashlights and batteries. You did a lot of game shows. No expense was spared there. No expense.

You were a game show staple. They then turned the lights out, and they had to use the flashlights to get out of the theater. Very exciting. 14 babies became as a result of that. I'll assume you did a little better on Pyramid than Gilbert fared. Well, I was pretty good.

It's impossible to do worse. I was pretty good until popular culture passed me by, and I was not so good. But I do remember that it was time to hang up my Pyramid shoes when the category was Rogersgers and hamstein musicals and i'm going you know carousel sound of music south pacific nothing you know what oh another actor of the millions of actors we mentioned uh what do you remember about verna klempner verna verna was a good man. He always, you know, Werner wanted to be a, I loved him.

Did you know him? He had this great energy. I met him, one time I was on, I think it was Conan O'Brien. Yes. And I did like Hogan's Heroes bit in my act. Of course you did. I found out that next door, Werner Klemperer was doing a TV show. So I asked him after my bit if he'd walk out on stage, and he did.

That's wonderful. Really great. That's wonderful. Well, he was a character. I don't know whether he married all the women, but he always had a different girlfriend, and he was always trying to get me to move. Oh, I'm living in this wonderful building. You must come and stay in it.

Oh, it's wonderful. And then two weeks later, he'd move somewhere else or be in another city or whatever. He obviously was very much devoted to his father, the conductor, Otto Klemper. And he was also a very close friend of Eddie Lawrence. Oh, the old philosopher. The old philosopher. Hello, Bunky. You say your boy comes into your bedroom at four in the morning,

wakes you up and tells you he's going over the falls in a great big baggie. Well, then, put your head down. And Eddie was a dear, dear friend of mine. I wasn't expecting that. This is the only podcast in the world talking about Eddie Lawrence. He was a dear, dear friend of mine. He was a wonderful painter. He studied with Léger after the war. He was great.

You're trying to say something, Frank. I can tell. No, I'm thrilled that we got to an old philosopher reference, Gilbert. I can tell. No, I just, I'm thrilled that we got to an old philosopher reference, Gilbert. Unbelievable. And the idea of an imitation. Hail as it is. Which I wasn't expecting.

John, you're a good mimic. Well, my wife doesn't think so. No? I've been trying to imitate a husband for 30 years. You and I were on the phone, and you brought up Turnabout, another infamous TV series created by the late, great Sam Danoff, Bill Persky's partner. You want to explain the premise and tell us how that happened? Well, it was based on a little novella by Thorne Smith, and it was a couple who go out on the weekend and buy this statuette, and they put it on their bedroom table. And that night they're having this discussion. I think they get into an argument.

And the last thing one of them says is, I just wish we could change bodies, meaning so that way you could understand me. And then this magical thing happens. The moon is in the right thing of phase, and woo, woo, woo. And when they wake up in the morning, they have changed bodies.

So I was playing the woman, and Sharon was playing the man. All well and good. But it was very confusing. Because unless Sharon had a cigar in her mouth, for some strange reason, she looked like a woman. But you've done everything in the business. And I wasn't allowed to wear dresses or anything. And I looked like a man. Nevertheless, it was an attempt, once again, at comedy. And it was not good because it was never written from a woman's point of view, It was not good because it was never written from a woman's point of view, even though we had Barbara Corday and one other person as our primary writers.

But Sam was very much of the Mel Brooks style of humor, and it just didn't work with these characters talking about humor that didn't work i was reading an interview with you in the av squad in the onion you were talking about being at murray the cop playing murray the cop and the new odd couple and as gilbert and i have talked about on previous shows gill you remember this they recycled some old odd couple scripts they recycled work for work yeah they did the same You know, so it starred Ron Glass and Demond Wilson. Yep. Two black guys. Well, they were writing, as you said, Jewish jokes.

Same Jewish jokes for these two guys. For black actors. It was a nightmare. Did you have fun at any point? By the way, you're the second actor to play Murray the Cop. We had Brad Garrett here. Yes. No, it was fun.

And there were a couple of scripts that turned out not to be too bad. Right. You know, if you put two monkeys in a room with typewriters, sooner or later one's going to type Hamlet. That's it. Right, or A Tale of Two Cities. What about the new Munsters, which I, excuse me,

Munsters Today, the new Munsters was another version. There were so many Munsters reboots. And I heard you say, you're very candid by the way, in that Onion interview, and you said it was the only job you ever took for the money. Yes. Lloyd Schwartz, a good friend of mine, was called up one night and he said, would you like to play Herman? And

told us about it. And I was a little resistant to it, but I was going through a divorce and I had a young son and I thought, well, let's not pull some of those, no, I don't want to snobby things that I did early in my career. I'll do it because I need the bread. So I did. And little thinking that it would turn out to be 90 some episodes. 104. Huh?

104? 104, yeah. Syndication package, you know, thing. package, you know, the thing. And I had the joy of working with Lee Merriweather and Howie Morton and Jason Marsden. We know Jason. And so that was fun. But the scripts were, it was battle every day. It was not a good deal.

And you knew Fred Gwynn. i didn't know him really i i met him on numerous occasions you know at parties in new york and stuff of that nature but i i always apologized he said no no no you're very good you're very good don't worry about it he would say there's no competition i said to myself you're very good. You're very good. Don't worry about it. He would say, there's no competition. I said to myself, you're telling me there's no competition. He was brilliant. But that was the problem with the show. That was a black and white show, beautifully cast and produced and written, but it was the right time period for it. Here we are capitalizing on that success, but we turned it into a four-camera television show.

It's in color. We're doing it in front of a live audience. Well, we didn't the first season, but from that point on, we did. It was awful. It was not... And you didn't like the makeup. Well, the makeup was... The costume. Fortunately, we only had to wear the makeup. Well, the makeup was. Fortunately, we only had to wear the makeup two days out of the week.

I see. But I had to wear those, what they call, therni, elevated shoes. And they were up about four or five inches. So they were dangerous. You had to be real careful with them. And the makeup itself took about three, three and a half hours to put on. But it was, and by that time,

they had a wonderful makeup guy by the name of Gilbert Moscow had developed makeups that would not take your face off and were easily removable. But the trade-off was it didn't stick that well. So once you started perspiring, they were constantly playing with your face.

And I've heard with that kind of makeup, like actors who are alcoholics, alcohol is a makeup remover. So alcoholic actors would sweat alcohol and the makeup would fall off. Is that a Chaney Jr.? Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of makeup, by the way, Lee Merriweather did this show, and Gilbert was naughty with her. She must have loved it. She threatened to spank him.

Oh. Yeah. Yes, which I thought, that's my number one sexual fantasy. Well, there you go. Getting spanked by cattle. Lovely woman. Terrific. And if she'd worn her sash and tiara, it would be even better.

Edward McDonald, speaking of makeup, I'd be interested in hearing about the process of John putting that Klingon makeup on for the Star Trek films. Yes. Well, that was, again, that was about a five-hour period for the Star Trek IV. But the hard part there was removing it. That was just... I'm so glad I only worked a couple days, because that took half my face off.

But by the time we did Star Trek VI, that movie, the last with the original cast... Yeah, the undiscovered country. They had developed these make-ups to be much kinder to the face, and they had removable... They used hot towels and lotions, and it was relatively easy. You are such a recognizable actor that when I was in the movies watching Star Trek IV and you appeared as the ambassador under all that Klingon makeup, in about nine seconds, I said, that's John Shuck. Frank, it was the voice. Well, the voice, too.

The voice, too. You know, the Monsters wasn't the only time that you played the Frankenstein monster or a Frankenstein monster character. You did a TV movie called The Halloween That Almost Wasn't, which is fun, but I bring it up because of the name Jack Riley. Yes. Someone you knew and someone Gilbert worked with.

I love Jack Riley. He was a wonderful guy. And I think I might have, when we talked, Frank, I might have told you this, that my very first day driving into Cleveland to start work at the Cleveland Playhouse, I had the radio on. And there was this radio couple by the name of Baxter and Riley playing. And that was Jack. And they had this hit show in Cleveland. Everybody stopped what they were doing to listen to this.

And it was two hours, five days a week. Cut and Dissolve, I used to listen to the show, but I was working there. And then that summer, I worked at the Cleveland Music Carnival. And one of the shows we did, we had Jack Riley as a guest star. And so that's when our friendship began. And then it turned out that uh he was out in hollywood and i looked him up got to know pat mccormick and all that crowd you know oh boy

i'll tell you when when pat mccormick is sprawled out on the stairs at three in the morning and you're trying to sneak out to go home, it's very difficult. By the way, Gilbert, John and I had a lovely phone call a few weeks ago and I told him the helicopter story about Pat, which he wasn't familiar with. No. But he said, sounds like him. And I met, I one time met uh tim conway yes and and i said look i gotta ask you something if it's this is a true story or not and i said uh with pat and i didn't even get to McCormick. I said, with Pat and Tim Conway, he goes, I'll accomplish it.

And I said, yes. And he just nodded. Part of the lore of this podcast. One night, I was actually Michael Learned and I were having dinner in

the Valley at a restaurant that's no longer there. And we hadn't seen each other for a couple, a year and a half, I guess. So it was nice to see her. And we look over, and there at a table is Pat McCormick, Tim Conway, and Jack Riley. So Jack calls us over and introduces us, and we sit down. I had to go change my underwear at least three times that night. The upshot was that we all ended out in the kitchen because Pat wanted to tell the chef how he should really be cooking and he decided that all of us should make omelets

the restaurant had closed by this point yeah they're washing the dishes and that that was that was it so we did we made omelets but it was out of that came a thing that we did at the comedy club a couple times called stand up and blow we were a whistling troop and we would stand up and blow everything from the national anthem we always began with the national anthem and then we would proceed to Beatles songs. Fantastic. There's a great, I think Ronnie Shell told us that when Pat was in the

actor's home, he was rooming with the great director Stanley Kramer. Yes, oh my. And that Jack Riley, I hope this is a true story, Jack Riley went to visit Pat, walked in, saw Stanley Kramer and said, Pat, you finally got a meeting.

That sounds like Jack. Here's one more for you from a listener, John, before we let you get out of here. Maurice Showdash, or Showdash, John was Mr. Irresistible in a terrific episode of Fantasy Island. Yes. Which I think was written by our friend Ron Friedman, Gilbert. Does he have any Hervé Villachez,

did he have any interactions or any memories? Oh, well, I guess the, let me check my short-term memory here. No. No. But I did enjoy that. I did two of those things. One with Bob Goulet,

where we went back and he was a swashbuckler, you know, back into the 1800s. Oh, yeah, great. Sort of a Cyrano-type character. That was a lot of fun. Do I have this wrong, John, that you said that musical theater was your real

love? Yes. When I was five, my folks took me to see Oklahoma in New York and I knew all the songs at that point. And I left the theater that night knowing that I wanted to be an actor. At five? At five. Or maybe it was a cowboy.

But anyhow, I pursued the acting. And yeah, I really never let go of it. And even though you have a little frog, and I am going to put you on the spot, can you sing a couple of bars of NYC for us?

NYC, what is it about you? You're big, you're loud, you're tough. NYC, I go years without you. Then I can't get enough. Enough of cab drivers answering back, etc. Oh, fantastic. Were you a trained singer?

Yeah. I studied with the wonderful singers in Los Angeles by the name of Sweetland, Lee Sweetland and Sally Sweetland, who really made it possible for me to go into musical theater because I had about a two-note range. The first thing I ever sang, it was during a college production. Well, I'd sung in high school musicals. I'd done Billy Bigelow, things like that. So that's nothing to sneeze at. And in college, we were doing Good News, and they said, here's a little song.

Make up a melody, because we can't find it. So it went something like, Oh, Tate is a great little college its team seldom win but they try why it's more like a jail compared to harvard or yale but it's handy if you live close by Fantastic Do you have any idea how many Ballpark, how many Performances as Daddy Warbucks And I know, because you went on the road With it, my wife, I told you I sent you

The programs, my wife saw you 20 years apart In the part She saw you in the 70s and she saw you In the 90s Yeah, I did it over a long period of time I don't know I was in the 90s. Yeah, I did it over a long period of time. I don't know. I was in the show a year and a half in New York, so that's eight performances times 18 months.

So well over 1,000. Well over 1,000. It's probably 25, closer to three. Wow. And I know this was any song song and not Warbuck's, but could you treat us with a little of Tomorrow? No, you sing that part, Gilbert. He'll sing. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

The sun'll come out tomorrow. Bet your bottom dollar that tomorrow there'll be sun just tomorrow tomorrow i love you tomorrow you're only a day away very nice doing the show for 18 months i was doing this scene at the end of the first act and and i'm talking to grace and and uh but the problem was that when annie came on the stage i couldn't think of what what her name was i had blanked on annie oh jesus and and the only thought that kept running through my head was if i could look at the marquee, I can get the information I need. And that night I called my wife and I said, I'm quitting. It's time to come home.

Did you do that with Alice Ghostly? Alice was, yes. She was my first Miss Hannigan. Wonderful. And then Marsha Lewis replaced her. And that's who I've done most of them with. I've also done a lot of it with Sally Struthers, who's extraordinary. And that's

somebody you should talk to. She's a fascinating woman. We have to get Sally Struthers. Yeah, she did Mark Maron's podcast recently. We have to get her. It's good timing because all in the family turned 50 this year. By the way, McCabe and Mrs. Miller just turned 50. I sent you a text wishing you a happy anniversary. 50 years. Unbelievable. Yeah. I'm going to ask you a question, John, that I haven't asked in a number of weeks, but I've asked many, many serious actors on this show. The man who's sitting in

that box that you're staring at, do you think that he could pull off a dramatic role? Well, he certainly has this afternoon. Of course, of course. Ed Wynn, Bert Lahr, all the great comics. They're all serious actors at heart. Jack Guilford. Jack Guilford.

Look at that, Gilbert. What a compliment. He compared you to Ed Wynn. Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. Well, you win some, you lose some. John, did you ever work with John MacGyver? I did not, and I never met the man.

Okay, would you like to hear Gilbert's impression of him? Absolutely. Everything in this company must be run according to schedule. We will have no slackers here. This is a tight ship, and I am the captain of the ship. Bravo. That's it. That's it.

You got him. Did you ever hear anybody do John MacGyver? He nailed him. Remember Milt Kamen? Of course. Yes. My favorite imitation of his was bacon frying in a pan. Did you ever see that?

Oh, I think I remember that. And then he would do the thing. He'd look right into the camera. He says, I'm going to become handsome. And he did. He suddenly became anathonist. Milt Kamen. I haven't thought of Milt Kamen in 40 years.

Or the old philosopher. It's about time. This is the only podcast. Did you ever meet Joey Ross? No, I never did. Okay. I'm shooting wildly here, John. Okay.

We want to thank some people. How about that compliment, though, Gilbert? He compared you to Burt Lahr and Ed Wynn. Unbelievable. It's the truth. He's got a... He longs to play Shylock, I think.

Yes. Ah, pound of flesh, huh? Well... Somebody was on the show. Gilbert, who was it? Well, we had a lot of character actors here. We had Joel Grey

and Griffin Dunn and a million people. Somebody said he should play Willie Loman. Hey, that's a lot of character actors here. We had Joel Grey and Griffin Dunn and a million people. Somebody said he should play Willie Loman. Hey, that's a good idea. What do you think? It's a part bigger than Hamlet. And, oh, Adam West was on, and he said, I would have made a great penguin. There you go. Oh, and Dick Van Dyke said I would have made a great penguin. There you go.

Oh, and Dick Van Dyke said I would have been a good buddy. Buddy Sorrell on the Dick Van Dyke Show. So those were. I'll have to put my thinking cap on. Oh, okay. If Gilbert plays Willie Loman, will you play Biff, John, to his Willie Loman? Are you kidding? No, I'll play Mrs. Lohman.

I mean, it'll be really serious then. You are a guy we could talk to forever and ever. And one day we will do this again and just go over. We'll just remember old comics and go through these names. We'll talk about Milt Kamen and Guy Marks and Shelley Berman and Corbett Monica and all of these great people. Shelley Berman, by the way, was on Macmillan and Wife.

Yes, he was. He also did an episode of The Monsters Today. Oh, my gosh. You've worked with everybody. Did you know Al Lewis? Huh. Did you know Al Lewis? Huh? Did you meet Al Lewis? No, I've never met Al.

Okay. I've never met Al, but you know who used to come to our tapings all the time? For some reason, he loved the show. It was Jonathan Winters. Oh, my.

Oh. Yeah, he would come, and sometimes he'd do something for the audience, other times not. Our warm-up man was Jason Mars marsden who at that time was 12 yes and he loved performing he's the one he just loves it and totally fearless and he'd go out and tell his jokes and sing a song and audiences loved it shout out to jason who is a fan of this podcast and i do communicate with him and he was very

excited to know you were coming on. Well, thank you. But he did tell me, I don't think John was enjoying himself much in those days. We want to thank our pal Barry Greenberg, our mutual pal who helped book John. I love that man. He is a complicated man, like John Shaft. Yes. But adorable. Adorable.

Thanks to our pal Jim Delicroce who set this up with the engineer Andrew Stewart. John is in a famous recording studio in Nashville where Chet Atkins recorded. Chet Atkins definitely recorded. So the good vibe's in that room. So we want to thank Andrew Stewart and Eddie Gore. Elvis.

Elvis too? In the other Elvis. Elvis, too? And the other studio. Yeah, we're not in B. You're in C, right? We're in C for Conrad, which is my first name. Conrad John Shuck. I always knew you as John Shuck, and then I started doing research, and you're Conrad all over the place. Well, one day, I was looking at the poster layout for the 20th anniversary revival,

and all you could see was Nell Carter and Annie. And I thought, I've got to do something about that. So my dad had said he wished that I'd used his name for my career, and I agreed. So I decided it was time to honor him and do that. But I didn't realize it was going to create such problems. People wrote me nasty letters, how dare you change your name and all that. It's so strange, isn't it?

People have nothing to do but write you letters about you changing your name. By the way, I watched that Mission Impossible episode you were in with Pernell Roberts. Yes. And Leonard Nimoy. And Leonard. Who would later be directly involved in your life in more ways than one.

Yes. And Leonard married John's ex-wife. Yes. We should point out. But you do a wonderful Mexican accent. You're in a Banana Republic in that episode. And you're like local muscle. Well, you say it's wonderful.

Thank you for that. Lieutenant Jocado. My brothers and I still call each other up. And you'll hear, your brother is dead. We were about as authentic. today's political correctness. We wouldn't stand a chance with that. I'm watching you and Pernell Roberts who's from Georgia.

The two of you are like Alfonso Bedoya in Treasure of the Sierra Madrig. I remember seeing a movie where John Carradine was playing a Mexican. That must have been interesting. He was versatile.

That was real. I think Sinatra played a Mexican or a Spaniard in, what is that movie with Cary Grant, The Pride and the Passion? Really? Yeah. It's one I've? Yeah, it's not good. It's one I've never seen. It's not good. Okay. I'll watch it twice.

John, this was an honor and a thrill to spend this time with you. Well, gentlemen, I can't thank you enough for including me. I'm a big fan of the show. You all are terrific, and you bring the best out of your guests, except in my case.

Oh, yeah. I think this was a perfect episode. Nice and tight. And we got to everybody. We did. We did pretty good. Yeah. By the way, Richard Schull, I was talking to John, by the way,

who starred with Richard Schull in Holmes and Yo-Yo. By the way, who starred with Richard Schull in Holmes and Yo-Yo. By the way, you work with Richard Schull and Richard Stahl. Yep. But possibly not Richard Schull, who was married to Valerie Harper. To Valerie, yeah. Okay, but there you go. But he told me what? He was a throwback who drove a car from the 40s, Richard Schull?

He and his wife, Marilyn, lived in the 40s. They bought all their clothes from the 40s at various stores. He would write only with a fountain pen. He had a 1940 Chevy or something, a Buick or Chevy. He was a railroad aficionado, and he owned his own railroad car. Wow. And for the opening gift, because he knew of my affection as a kid of taking the train from Buffalo, New York, to New Jersey to see my grandparents. And I had remarked on this doe skin type blankets that they used to have.

He gave me one of those blankets numbered so you could find out where it came from, which compartment on which train. That's cool. Very thoughtful. But he was eccentric. And their house was all from the 40s. All their furniture, everything. He was like a sort of a curmudgeonly actor, a little bit like a Matthau.

Yes. In some ways. Yes, he had this wonderful, unusual, mobile, rubbery face, and very distinctive. Loved him. He was doing a Neil Simon play. He went home between shows in New York, and for the break never came back. Oh. It was a bit of a shock.

I hate to end this out with such a downer, but. All right, then, sing us a little more from Annie. Oh, my God. We're not going to make you work that hard. What's the other one? Something was missing. No, I'm not going to do that. Together at last.

Together forever. We're tying a knot. They never can sever. I don't need sunshine now to turn my skies to blue. I don't need anything but you. There you go. I'm singing out, guys. Charles Strauss is kind of a genius, isn't he? He is. There you go. I'm singing out, guys. Charles Strauss is kind of a genius, isn't he?

He is. He really is. Gilbert, this man has a drive ahead of him. Let's sign off. Hey. You know, it was light outside when we started. Yeah. You better get one of those flashlights from the game show.

These are deep dives, John. I warned you. So this has been Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. And our guest has been a guy, you know, yeah, he's done movies, he's done TV, he's done TV, he's done Broadway, but most importantly, he is the first actor to say fuck in a major motion picture, John Shook.

Good night, Gracie. John, you're the best. Thank you so much. We'll do it again. We'll talk soon. Together forever We're tying a knot They never can sever I don't need sunshine now

To turn my skies to blue I don't need anything but you You've wrapped me around I don't need anything but you. You've wrapped me around that cute little finger. You've made life a song. You've made me the singer. And what's that messed up tune always? Blah, blah, blah.

Blah, blah, blah. Anything but you. Yesterday was plain awful. Awful. You can say that again. Again. Yesterday was plain awful. But that's.

Not now. That's then. I'm poor as a mouse. I'm richer than Midas. But nothing on earth. could ever divide us. And if tomorrow I'm an apple seller too, I don't need anything but you. Hamlet needed his mother.

Woolworth needed his shop. Orville needed his mother Woolworth needed his shop Orville needed his brother Or else he'd go ker-pop They're two of a kind The happiest pair now My friend and Adele They're floating on air now And what's the time of the dream And then Adele, they're floating on air now.

And what's the title of the dream I'm just into? I don't need anything. Anything. Anything. I don't need anything but you. We'll see you next time.