Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - GGACP Rewind: Episode #22: Bela Lugosi Jr. and Sara Karloff

Episode Date: March 19, 2026

Gilbert and Frank celebrate the lives and careers of horror icons Bela Lugosi and Boris Karloff  with the help of their devoted offspring, Bela Lugosi Jr. and Sara Karloff. First up, the “Son of Dracula” recalls visiting the set of “Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein” as a child and points out what the movie “Ed Wood” got wrong about his famous dad. Then, author and historian Sara Karloff looks back on her father's most indelible roles, from The Frankenstein Monster to The Mummy to The Grinch—and tells us why her dad referred to Halloween as his “busy season." PLUS: Karloff dances on “The Red Skelton Show”! Lugosi passes up the role of a lifetime! Sara meets the “Son of Gilbert”! And Bela Jr. takes a stand for The Three Stooges! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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When West Jeffers took flight in 1996, The vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion. Inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when Westjet welcomes you on board.

Here's to Westjetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. Listen to them, children of the night. What music they make. That, of course, was a line at Betel Lagosie said in Dracula. When I was a little boy, on TV, they used to have all the old movies, that one station would have the gangster movies, the other one would have the monster movies.

And I fell in love with the monster movies. When I was a kid, I used to, like, walk around with, like, a blanket around me, And just, I knew the entire Dracula film. It's like, to die, to be really dead, must be glorious. There are far first things awaiting them than death. So it's so much. Anyone who's ever heard me on the Howard Stern Show, Howard always asked me to do my Bay Lagosie imitation, and they call me Dracula Gottfried on the show

because of my love for Lagosi and for Boris Karloff. And, you know, sadly, I can't talk to Boris Karloff and Baye Lagosie, but I got in touch with their kids. are a little older than just kids, but they were willing to talk to me. I spoke to Bala Lugosi, Jr., the real son of Dracula, and Frankenstein's daughter, Boris Karloff's daughter, Sarah Karloff, and I called her up, and I said, it's Gilbert Gottfried. Uh, would you be on my podcast? and she said, I'd love to be on your podcast.

Nothing would get me more excited. I'd be so thrilled to be on your podcast. So, today we speak to Baylor LaLagosie Jr. and Sarah Carlos on Gilbert Gottfried's amazing. colossal podcast. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and I'm here with my psychic Frank Santro Prudre. I'm just learning to pronounce his name.

Episode 8. Yes. One day I'll learn it. And this is the amazing colossal podcast. And this is anyone who knows me from the Howard Stern Show, knows that how many times I've imitated Betta Legosius Dracula on the show where they start calling me Dracula Gottfried on Hollywood Squares for their Halloween special. They had me total Dracula makeup.

And so that's why it's such a treat for someone who is on, horror kid like myself to be talking to this next man, Bato Lagosi Jr. Baylor's son, welcome to the show. Thank you, Gilbert. Now, I have to tell you, you know, as a kid who used to stay up at nights and sit an inch from the TV so I wouldn't wake my parents up when I was watching Dracula late at night and movies like that, that I got an email from you that said,

Dear Gilbert, give me a call. Thank you, Bealogosi. And I thought, boy, when I was a kid, to have thought I'd get a letter like that. That was just amazing. Well, I get that every once in a while. And I wanted to ask you, too. you're like, first of all, the idea of having such an iconic name.

And so, number one, your whole life you must have had people doing Legosi imitations to you. Right. And to make matters worse, you became a lawyer, which lawyers are always called bloodsuckers. So that must have added more ammunition. So what was it like growing up with that? that name. Well, you know, when you're a school age kid,

you like to blend in with the lockers. And so my name was giving me too much attention. So I actually started going by Bill instead of Bella, thinking that would help, but it didn't. People have recognized that name every day through today. It happens all the time.

It's a funny thing because, I mean, Lon Cheney Jr., he changed it to Lonchaney Jr. from Griton Cheney, but he regretted being Lon Cheney Jr. his entire life. He regretted the name. So was it like that for you? Did it at time? No, no, because I didn't try to follow in his footsteps, and I did something so totally different than what he did, and I never tried to trade off my name as far as the law business goes. But, you know, people took me seriously just because of my profession. And, you know, had I tried to go into acting, that would have caused the problem.

Yeah. I can imagine. How old were you, Beela, before the realization of who your dad was, really began to dawn on you, you began to sink in. I mean, obviously, as a little child, you wouldn't. Yeah, great school, actually. And how so? Was it because your dad exposed you to the films,

or was it that you learned about it from your schoolmates? Yeah, you know, the word would go around, but that's Beala Legosi's son. Now, you were on the set. of a few of his movies when you were a child. Do you remember anything about that? Well, I know I was on the set of a film when I was less than a year old because I've seen pictures,

but I have no memory of it. But anyway, the one I remember is that with Costello and meet Frankenstein. I was 10 years old. And I remember that very well. What recollections do you have on that movie? That's one of my favorites. Well, a number of them.

For one thing, you know, Dad could do a scene in one take. But other people on the scene would require, you know, five, ten, 15 takes before they'd get it right. And that's because Dad prepared so much, you know, for his role. He was a real confident professional. I also remember the respect he got on the set, everywhere from the grips. the other actors. And then I remember coffee break times

when people would get from the cart from tea or some other beverage. I'd go there with Launcaney Jr. made up as the wolf man and gone strange

as Frankenstein. They were both very nice to me. I remember that. And then I also remember the female lead. I thought she was beautiful. honor I forgot my last name

oh god now I have a block on that but now that that brings me to Lancini Jr. So he was nice to you oh yes and because he

has this reputation for alcoholism and being an angry drunk and a lot of people had bad feelings about him. Well, I just had that limited exposure. I think Cheney Jr. liked kids. I think he felt comfortable around kids. Yeah, I get that impression from his grandson.

And now that brings up another subject that you, his grandchildren, and Sarah Karloff, Boris Karloff's daughter, you help them, I guess get the rights to their parents and grandparents' names and get some? Yeah, there is a lawsuit that I brought in the 60s because against Universal, cases called Lagosie versus Universal. And Universal at the time was licensing, quote, Dracula, unquote, but the pictures that they would give to the licensee was of my dad. and they did this

without any permission or compensation to me and so that's what the lawsuits started out to be about but it ended up being about whether or not the rights

to your name and likeness for commercial purposes continued on as a property right after your death and ultimately the court found that it did not,

but then there's an effort in the California legislature to reverse that portion of the Supreme Court decision, which they did. And they declared, the legislature declared, that this was a property right, and they provided a whole system for enforcing those rights. Well, I remember years ago, they, I mean, the idea of,

a Betel Lagosie imitation or a Peter Lorry imitation and a commercial would just open like anybody could do it without... That's not true. Yeah, but years ago... Any more. Yeah, now. You changed it. But years ago, it used to be like

anybody could do a celebrity impersonation and a commercial. Oh, yeah. It's always ripped off. That's true. It wasn't a catalyst for this, Beela, that somebody brought you, was it a model kit? Yes, exactly. The old Aurora model kit. I know them well.

Yeah. And you realized that it wasn't just Dracula. They were using the name Dracula, but what? They were using your pop's likeness. Oh, yeah, clearly. And you wound up representing, tell us about how you wound up representing some of the heirs of the Three Stooges. Oh, there was a lawsuit among the... the heirs of the three stooges involving the accounting for monies and who owned the rights.

And I participated in the trial of that action where we were successful on my clients. And then I went into the business with them of exporting the rights to the three stooges, which I did for a number of years. Which is amazing to me. Bala Lugosi representing the three stooges. It's very strange. Well, they never were in a film together. Now, another thing I was always curious about,

it was a lot was always made about that Lugosi and Boris Karloff hated each other and had a feud going. I never heard that from my parents. I never saw that. So this was something kind of maybe made up by the studio. I think so. Was the studio promoting that idea because they were usually depicted as enemies in their films?

Do you think, Bela? You know, I don't know, but I've seen like little, like, trailers and snippets for the two of them, and for example, enjoying each other's company playing chess or things like that, which would be, you know, the exact opposite. it. But I don't think there's any truth to that, not to my knowledge anyway. I remember seeing photos of you as a little child standing between Boris Karloff's legs as the Frankenstein monster. That's right. That was on the set. So I remember I told you there was a movie where I was on the set? That was it. Oh, there you go.

which your father gave this performance that people forget about how varied his talent was that he was Igor that was totally different than Dracula yeah he really he really made that film with that portrayal and he enjoyed it by the way in later years he always talked about

he liked the opportunity to do a little comedy it's a very unsettling performance it's a wonderful performance. Yeah, yeah. It's, you could, and, oh, go ahead. Well, you know, he's a good actor, so let's see. Yeah, because part of the fun of watching both Son of Frankenstein and Ghost of Frankenstein is that he looks like he's having fun.

Yeah, a little twinkle in the eye. Oh, yes. I was asking this about, asking Gilbert this before we sat. down bail. I was talking about films like the black cat and the raven and that you know how campy some of those films were. And I said to Gilbert, I wonder if if, if Bayla Legosi, you know, if he had that twinkle in his eye, if he had an appreciation for the absurdity, you know, the dialogue and the black cat comes to mind that Gilbert and I were just talking about the supernatural, perhaps baloney, perhaps not. I mean, he must have known. It's such a great line.

It's a wonderful line, and it's a wonderful spooky film, but I always watch that film every chance I get. And I always wondered, does he have, did he have some sort of sense of the absurdity of what he was saying? Well, yeah, I think so. He had a sense of humor. Did he know that, you know, did he have his tug in his cheek when he was doing it? There's a big age difference between me and him, and so we never had a discussion like that. That would be a grown-up discussion.

What was the age difference? 56 years. Wow. What was Lagosie, and I realize I should say your dad, Lagosie is getting confusing because both of you are. What was Bailey Lagosie like as a father? He was a good father. He was always trying to impart to me, you know, the wisdom that he had acquired over the years.

it took an interest in, you know, showing me and teaching me things. And, you know, it was very, very generous. As a husband, though, I guess is where he got in trouble. It's like he was like, he was married, I think, five times. Yeah, a number. Yeah. He was married to my mother for over 20 years. Wow.

I had no idea. long. Yeah. So then that must have been a pretty successful marriage then. Yeah. Wow, that I didn't know. Let's talk a little bit about Dracula and about how he was, how many performances did he do? 261 performances, according to what I found online on Broadway. Yeah. Before touring. Yes. And is it true? I mean, there's some dispute about this, about whether or not the studio wanted, Universal wanted, Lon Cheney. for the part that's what I've always heard and that when you know

he had a terminal illness they had to pick somebody else and so dad was not the first choice I heard it went so far as I don't know if it was Lemley or it may have been Carl Lemley himself head of Universal who even sent out a telegram

that said no Betel Lagosi and it's so odd to think of it now because to me, I mean to anyone, it's like I say in 2000 years from now, if you say to someone do a Dracula

imitation, they're going to do a Bayla Lagozy imitation. Exactly. That's exactly right. That's true. I was reading that they went out to actors like Paul Muni and Conrad fight. I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that's true. Yeah, I don't either.

Well, don't forget, I wasn't born. until 1938. Right. He certainly made the part of his own, didn't he? Certainly did. You know, it's funny, they talk about, I remember when Frank LaGela played the part of Dracula on Broadway,

and I remember at the time people making a big deal out of that it was the first time that the character had sexuality. But your father's Dracula always seemed sexual, always seemed smoldering. I remember seeing an interview

with your father where he said he got loads of letters from women wanting to get bitten by him. Yeah, I forget. I've heard of that interview. And it's funny,

and that's another reason that I like Abin and Costello meet Frankenstein is because after Dracula, it's like they had other actors playing Dracula. Like John Caronine and such. And, yeah, John Carradine, who I'm a big fan of,

but he just wasn't Beala Legosi in the part. Well, you know, that's like watching the Spanish version, which they filmed on the same set except at night. Yes. And, you know, people say that there's a lot of qualities of that film that are better than the, you know, Universal Dracula that starred my dad, except when you look at it, one thing is missing. and that's the male lead.

It wasn't dead, and it just didn't carry itself. It's like when I watch they had like House of Frankenstein and House of Dracula where they brought all the monsters together and John Caradine's Dracula, who I'm a fan of. But it's like every time I see those movies, I think, boy, imagine if Bailogosi had been doing Dracula here. Yeah, yeah. And Abin and Costello meet Frankenstein had the sense to bring them back.

Yeah, I just saw it this last weekend, as a matter of fact. Oh, yeah? Still holds up. Yeah. Holds up so well, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. And it's a comedy that's respectful of the monsters. Yeah, and you know, when I go out and the public make appearances,

that's almost the most talked about subject with me is that film. it's really popular with the fans. And how did you get along with Abbott and Costel? Well, they didn't have anything to do with me. I guess that answers the question. Yeah. Baila, what was the real reason, and maybe it was several reasons, that your dad turned down the part of the Frankenstein monster,

because I read somewhere that it was the, he didn't want any part of the makeup, that it was the lack of dialogue and the script. What are you attributed to? It's the latter is what he told me. Mm-hmm. But, you know, it just was a dumb role. A role he would play years later, Stranger's Strangler. Yeah.

And it's like, for people unfamiliar with it, he kind of got, you know, he was attacked for giving a bad performance as the monster, but he kind of was screwed. in the part because in the previous film, that was Ghost of Frankenstein, where Launcini Jr. was the monster. And he gets Igor's brain in his body, which is a great scene of Launcini Jr. talking as the monster and your father's voice coming out going,

I am Igor. And then it's found out that the brain, the blood type, is different, and he's blind. Oh, that's right. He was blind. So he had to stumble around. So in the next movie, he was supposed to be blind during the whole part, first part of the film. And that's where the Frankenstein walk that everyone knows comes from. That's what's imitate. Yeah, they imitate your father's walk because he was supposed to. to be blind and that's why his arms were outstretched.

Right. And, but then at the last minute, the studio decided to change the fact that he was blind. So a lot of what your father was doing looks strange now because he was doing a blind man. And did he take the part the second time in part, Beilu, because he had so famously turned it down and thought he had made a mistake? did that fact he was thinking, you think? It may have just been to work.

Mm-hmm. And so that actors desperately want to do. And a lot of people, I mean, like a younger generation of people who aren't familiar with old horror films,

their knowledge of Lagosie would be from Ed Wood. Yeah, that's at the end of his life. Yeah. But what did you think of the movie, Ed Wood? Well, it had a lot of inaccuracies, which were, you know, pejorative. And, you know, Martin Lando didn't write the script, but he did a wonderful job researching and portraying my dad at the end of his life.

He did a good job of that. But, no, the film itself had a lot of, you know, bad things that were wrong. Do you remember any in particular? There's some very simple ones. One is, you know, he had German Shepherds and Dobermans, but they depict him as having these little lap dogs. And they depicted him as swearing all the time, but he didn't swear. Things like that.

Interesting. Sleeping in his outfit, Dracula outfit. He didn't do that. He was supposed to have been, of what I heard, very dignified. Yes, he was. Now, was he also, though, very old-school. and as far as being, he was dignified, but could he be like cold to people? Well, sure.

You know, he could play any part you want. Did Landau ever reach out to you at any point, Baylor? Did you ever consult with you? Oh, no, no consulting. After the fact, we got together. Oh, really? Yeah, had a good relationship. Oh, good.

I mean, it must have been a little strange seeing someone winning an Oscar. for playing your father. I know, it was. But, you know, he's a very humble guy. But Landau did say that he felt the accomplishment of getting the Academy Award that he was winning it for Baylor Legosi. That was the... That was very nice.

So I have to wrap it up now if you're in a good place. Yeah, that was a lot of information, Beela. Thank you. Thank you. And if we can ever have you back, I'd love to have you back. Yeah, maybe one day. Hello, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santo Padre, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast. Now, I remember when I was a little kid in Brooklyn, I would be, I'd watch my little black and white TV.

I'd sit in front of it. I'd be, you know, I didn't want to wake my parents up because the monster movies would come on late at night. And I remember watching movies like Frankenstein, a bride of Frankenstein, son of Frankenstein, and the mummy and the house of Frankenstein. And old starring Boris Karloff, who was one of the greats of horror actors

and one of the great actors of old Hollywood. And I figure I couldn't get Boris Carler for this for obvious reason. So I got the next best thing. Boris is Pride and Joy, his daughter, Sarah Karloff. Welcome to the show, Sarah. Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be on your show. Nice to meet you, Sarah.

Thank you. Nice to meet you, Frank. Now, everybody knows Boris Karloff. Harlov as a very sinister evil person and all the movies, but what was he like as a father? He was a delightful father and a delightful human being. He could not have been more different from the roles he played. He was just gentle, soft-spoken, had a lovely sense of humor. He was a typical English gentleman. Actually, the roles he played, he was not really evil. He was really very often caught in the dilemma not of his own making now he he was also like he liked children

and children like him he told me once that that children were not afraid of the creature that they seemed to understand that the creature was the victim and not the perpetrator and that it was adults who were frightened more so than children of the creature well with frankenstein it was always like Frankenstein was basically a big kid. And it was just every, so kids identified. He was like someone alone in the world and he didn't have any friends. And that's all he wanted was to fit in. Correct. Correct. And now, also, something I always have to ask is Boris Karloff always acted with Bela Lugosi early on. And there was a lot made out of them having a feud going.

Was there ever any feud? Well, they made seven films together, but there certainly was no feud. That was Hollywood hype, I think, to help boxed off a straw. They had a great deal of professional respect for one another, but Bala being Hungarian, his own personal interest and my father being British had his own personal interest.

But there was no personal animosity between them and there was a great deal of professional respect between them. Did you ever meet Lagosi? No, I know his son, Bala Jr. very well. We're good friends. But I never had the opportunity to meet his father. Yeah, I know because Bala Gossi Jr. as a lawyer who fought. so that you and the Cheney's and other people like that can get rights to their father's likenesses. Yeah, Bailey was instrumental in helping write the civil code that protects the rights of deceased celebrities' families. And now, Karloff, in his horror movies, I heard it was like basically an agreement.

that he had to have a tea break. Well, when my father made Frankenstein, he was not in a position to make any demand. Frankenstein was his 81st film, and no one had seen the first 80. It's amazing. And no one expected the film to be the huge success that it was, and certainly no one expected the creature to be the star of the film. really anticipated that Colin Clive, who played Dr. Frankenstein, would be the star of the film. My father wasn't even invited to the premiere.

So there was certainly not, he certainly was not in a position to insist upon a T. Great. He was third build, wasn't he, Sarah? He wasn't billed. Oh, he wasn't built. He was in, if you watch the movie. He was, it was just a question mark. Yes.

question marks. You're right. Yeah. But by the second movie, that's Carlos. That's correct. And then in the end running credits, yeah, in the end running credits, his name is opposite the creature.

But in the opening credits, it's just a question mark. But keep in mind, he wasn't even invited to the premier. And you said he'd been a starving actor for two decades by the time Frankenstein came around. That's right. He was an overnight success

after 20 years in the business. I remember I, I think he was in like Scarface, the original would pull movie. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. As I say, Van Einstein was his 81st film, and he was 44 years old.

And Baylor Legosie had turned down the role. The role would have gone to Cheney Sr. had he not, unfortunately, died prematurely. Now, is it true that Karloff was discovered in the kind of? commissary? Well, he was spoken to by James Whale and asked to test for the role after Baylor turned it down. I read a story that's something to the effect that James Whale saw him in the commissary and like the shape of his head. Is that a myth? Sarah's very interesting. Well, I've heard that he said to my father, you have an interesting face, Mr. I see. And Gilbert and I were wondering, was it because, to your knowledge, that Lagosi turned down the part because he didn't want to go through the makeup tests? Or because there was a disastrous screen test?

He did not want to perform under all that makeup. And he didn't want to do a non-speaking role. Now, also, I love the Grinch that stole Christmas. That's one of the very few times that my father called me and my children and said he had done something that he just thought was delightful, just magical. And he hoped that my two sons would sit down that evening and watch it because it was absolutely an enchanting, just an enchanting program. and he hoped I'd have an opportunity to watch it that night. And, I mean, you know, my father never brought his work home. He seldom talked about his work. He never talked about other actors.

But he was so enchanted with how the Grinch stole Christmas that he called me. And I was living in Arizona at the time. And he called me and specifically thought it was something that my kids and I would love sitting down and watching together. And he was absolutely right. Did he win a Grammy for the performance, sir? Yes, he did. Uh-huh, he did. But he was in England during, he was in England at the time of the Grammy Awards.

And so his agent, Arthur Kennard, went and accepted it for him. And then the next time my father came over to this country, and he went to his agent's office. And Arthur said, Boris, here's your Grammy. And my father, who was not into awards, looked at it and said, it looks like a bloody doorstop and took it and put it down on the ground on the floor by his agent's door

and left it there. Now, there was a major hit song out years ago called The Monster Mass. Yeah, Bobby Boris Pickett did it. Yes. Now, how did your father feel about his voice being imitated? in that song. He felt as well he should that it was a

lovely compliment and it was the song itself was great fun. Now he was friends also with, well, Vincent Price. Yes, they were great friends. Vincent, of course, was a great intellect and an avid reader

and, of course, a great art aficionado. And he and my father had a lot of things in common and they were very fond of each other. Of course, they had worked together several times. And I think, well, also Peter Lorry, he was friends with. Yes, they had also worked together several times.

And I think the three of them all had a very healthy sense of humor about the parts they played. Well, I think they were certainly consummate professionals and had a sense of humor about the genre in which they performed. I know that on the set of Comedy of Terror's and the remake of the Raven, they drove Roger Corman crazy playing practical jokes from one another. Sarah, I want to go back a little bit. Where did the name, because your father was obviously born, William Henry Pratt, there's some mystery about where the name Boris Karloff came from.

I mean, he never legally changed his name. No, he never did. And there still was a mystery two years ago, an outstanding defrauding. definitively researched book called Boris Karloff more than a monster written by a British author, Stephen Jacobs, who spent 10 years researching before the book was published, has never been able to come up with a name even vaguely resembling Karloff on either side of the family. So no one knows where it came from. No, I don't know where it came from. Maybe my father did.

The answer he always gave in interviews was that it came way back on his mother's side of family, and Boris simply came from sin there. Interesting. I remember a story as far as the sense of humor. Your father had, like, sometimes he would see, like, the comedy. He would see the comedy in what he did sometimes, and it's like in one horror movie, they said they were filming his close-up, and it was. supposed to be a really chilling scene and uh call off turned to the camera and just yelled boo oh yeah that was

in targets i think yes that's a wonderful picture can you tell us anything about targets uh oh that's my favorite picture that's my favorite film i think that roger corman had 10 minutes left of carloff time and from a previous film or contract And he assigned the task to Peter Bogdanovich to create a vehicle to use time. And Peter had never done such a thing before. Well, Peter not only wrote, but he directed and he acted in Target. And in the film, Targets, My Father plays an aging horror screen star. Brilliant casting.

And it wasn't literally the last film, My Father, made, but it certainly was the last film of merit, and it had great merit. The film is about a sniper, and unfortunately, it was released to the

theaters at the time of the Bob Kennedy, a Martin Luther King assassination. So it was pulled prematurely from the theaters, but it is available on DVD now. My father

has a monologue in the film, and he did it in one take, and the whole cast and crew stood up and applauded. My, which brought tears to my father's eyes, because it was essentially a wonderful exit line

film for my father. That's a great performance. Yeah, it is a wonderful performance. It's a wonderful story and film and well shot and well performed by Peter. and the whole cast, and it's a film he delighted in doing.

He admired Peter's creativity and talent and energy, and the film ran in excess of 10 minutes of screen time of Carloff, and I believe my father donated the balance of his time to the film because he admired Peter's work so much. It's a great picture. It's one of, if not my favorite film. Do you like the Lutin Pictures, too? The Val Lutin Pictures?

Yes, very much. I love the body snatcher. That's great. Yeah, I love the body snatcher. And Bedlam, of course, is about a real asylum and really depicts the horrors that went on in an asylum at that time. And Isle of the Dead is a horrible, wonderful film. And everything Luton did was so atmospheric and shooting it in black and all those films from black and white. just added so much value to those films.

Did your father ever speak about the very horrible, like, long hours of makeup he had to put up with in those horror films? Well, he often talked about Jack Pierce, being a makeup genius. And he and Jack worked together on, I think, 13 films. and of course the makeup for Frankenstein took four hours in the morning and three hours at night and the art of exact duplication for the camera which does not lie it was of course spoke to jack's genius and the patients of both jack and my father each and every day but um and the makeup was lead-based and they used no prosthetics. They used, you know, it had to be built up every day,

layer upon layer for exact duplication for the camera. The mummy was, excuse me, almost as difficult makeup for the role of Imhotep. And it took almost as long to apply. And one day my father had a 19-hour day from start to finish. but when they finished applying the makeup which had to be layer after layer of cotton and collodium

and moisture and drying each layer with a hair dryer and then more of the same and more of the same to reach the desired look for the mummy and then when they finished applying gained all the wrapping done

my father pointed out to them that they'd failed to include a fly Oh, hilarious. It's hilarious. And the shoes were heavy, too. They had to make some adjustments since it was going to be

such a hideously long day. Do you know that's a question I used to always wonder watching some of those horror films, especially the mommy-like, how they went to the bathroom? Well, now you know. And Sarah, getting back to the Frankenstein makeup,

the shoes, did I read that the shoes were 11 pounds? They weighed something like that, I think 13 pounds. And they were plaster boots. Wow. And they only elevated his height by about not quite two inches, but it was all due to camera angle and shortening of the sleeves in the jacket. And as if he wasn't schlepping enough around with the costume, he had to carry Colin Clive,

correct? Several times up the back hill and drag him up the ladder in the tower. And that's what ruined my father's back. He already had a bad back, but that's what ruined his back permanently. Wow. Oh, yeah. And there was take after take after tape. Now, your father, as well as so many actors of that time period were very mistreated by the studio. They were taken advantage of, and so your father was actually one of the main forces of developing Screen Actors Guild, I think. My father was one of the 12 founding members of the Screen Actors Guild. His car number was number nine. And he felt very passionate about his work as a founding member,

although he was very quiet about it, quietly proud of it. But it was very dangerous work for those actors. They were putting their careers online, and they ran the danger of never working again, because they were forming a union in opposition to the studios and the studio bosses and the directors and producers that they might never work again. And my mother told me the story one time that they would go to parties and park their cars, blocks away from one another's houses when they'd have need needs. and then walk to the meetings, and then they'd go to parties,

and they'd dance by one another on the dance floor and whisper meeting Tuesday night at so-and-so's house and dance on by. I mean, it was extraordinarily hazardous to their job, to their profession. But it was remarkable. My father, it was founded, SAG was founded in 1933, and my father remained on the board, until into the mid to late 40s. Yeah, I think your father and James Cagney and a bunch of others. Ralph Morgan, Lucille, and Jimmy Glacian, yeah. Wasn't Bala an early member as well?

He was an early member, but not a founding member. I see. I want to ask a question that I think most people would probably ask you many times. I mean, as the daughter of the man who played Frankenstein, I mean, at what age did you realize this? I mean, I read somewhere that you saw it the first time on television as well, The Monster. At what age did you become aware that your dad was famous and that he was this iconic character? Well, you know, as I say, my father didn't bring his work home.

He was very modest and self-effacing, very humorous. It was very interesting to ride in a car with him and stop at a stoplight. It's very interesting to ride in an elevator with him because people just didn't know whether or not to mind their manners or to take advantage of the captive situation. But by and large, they minded their manners, and there was a lot of body language going on in the elevator. Turned around, everybody was pointing and saying, this is Boris Karlof, that's Boris Karlo. But growing up, you know, he was my father. and he would be the first one to say a plumber probably couldn't act and i bloody well couldn't fix a sink you know it was his job and that really was his attitude back then the press was less invasive

there were there was head a hopper and well of parsons and they ran the hollywood media period and so you know the children didn't read the magazines etc And a famous last name wasn't a big deal in Hollywood of Beverly Hills. Later, when I moved to San Francisco, a famous Hollywood name stuck out like a sore thumb. So you had to learn to cast your own shadow. Then it became a different matter. But my father didn't carry his name on his shoulder, so his family didn't. I see.

I heard a story that, I don't know if you know anything about this, I heard that Frank Sinatra once ran into Boris Karloff at a restaurant, and they started talking, and Boris Karloff said to Sinatra, who had just started getting more and more into acting at that point, your father said, you know how to sing with your voice, you have to learn how to act with your voice also. and that your father was giving Frank Sinatra acting lessons. Frank Jr. and I are good friends,

and Frank tells me that's true. Great story. So Frank Sinatra learned acting from Boris Karloff. Well, I'm not saying he learned acting. I'm not saying he learned acting, but I'm telling you that Frank Jr. tells me that Frank Sr. told him that my father coached him. Wow.

Good stuff. Yeah. Now, do you know... And I'm told also that Chris, who is it, Nicholson, I think marks his scripts like my father did. Oh, because, well, they acted together for Corman. In The Terror and in one other film. Oh, and in Comedy of Terror. No, in The Raven.

Right, the Raven. And I think, like, Nicholson said back then, he was like, you know, he really was a kid. Yeah, he was. And to be around, like, Karloff, Vincent Price, and Peter Lorry, he was just like, he felt like this annoying little kid around him. That's one person I've always wanted to meet is Jack Nicholson. but I never have. How did your father come to be an actor, Sarah? I mean, the things I read on the Internet

and doing some research about him and about you is that he supposedly lied about his experience? Oh, absolutely. He was trained for the diplomatic service because all his brothers were in the diplomatic service in Great Britain, well, in China and India, one brother, having been knighted for a service, service in China and my father always referred to him as my brother, the sir.

And my father was formally educated for the diplomatic service. And he ran away from home at age 21, with $100 in his pocket, and took a steamer, flipped the coin between Australia and British Columbia, wanting to be an actor, shows you how much he knew about it, never having had a, an acting lesson, but having snuck into various theaters to see plays in London growing up. And so when he arrived in British Columbia, he thought he had a job with a farmer. The farmer didn't know he had a job, but he appeared at the farmer's door, and the farmer gave him a job, slept in the barn.

And his goal was to become an actor. So when he heard there was an audition with a repertory theater group, he presented himself to the repertory theater group's manager as an experienced British actor. And, you know, Americans and Canadians will fall for anyone with a British accent. So the men gave him a job. And my father told the story on himself that his, his salary was $30 a week when the curtain went up on his first performance, but it was $15 a week when the curtain came down on his first performance because it was completely clear.

He'd never stepped age before in his life, but at least he still had a job. Wow. And he worked ultimately off and on for 2018, 20 years for three different repertory theater companies in British Columbia, sometimes being. pay, sometimes not. Doing three to five plays a week. He was a quick study, unfortunately.

And sometimes they build sets, paint sets. Sometimes they, there was no work, and he dig ditches and worked for the British Electric Electric Railway Company or learned to drive a truck, had no driver's license, of course.

Did whatever it took to keep him starving to death for 18 to 20 years. But he learned it he learned his craft there and eventually made his way down to Chicago and then went back to Buries Colomé and then

finally made his way down to San Francisco and eventually the Hollywood for another 10 years he was an extra as he said third from the left in the fourth row and then did some bit parts

and was in the criminal code in the play and then was cast in the film and became a bit part player which is an improvement over an extra but he had made 80 films. Amazing. Before Frankenstein. So long journey. Long journey. 20 years. I heard James Whale who could be a bit of an egotist and very bitter and jealous of anyone else's fame, used to sometimes angrily referred to Boris Karloff as, oh, that truck driver. Well, I heard that was bail.

Oh, okay. Good enough. But I didn't say that. However, James Whale was jealous of my father being the star of the film because James Whale was, you know, inordinately fond of Colin Clive. And he was supposed to be the star of the film. And I heard a story that when your father was a starving actor, I think he was like hitchhiking or whatever out in L.A.,

and he was picked up by Lanchini Sr. He was standing in the rain waiting for a bus in front of the studio. and Longchaney Senior picked him up and gave him what he considered to be the most valuable advice he ever got. And that was find something that nobody else is doing or is willing to do or can do and then do it better than anybody else. Wow, great advice. And then your father basically got, he received like the, mantle after a Cheney Sr. died of like the king of power. No, Bala really did.

And then when Baila turned down the job. Yeah. And then Baila turned down the job. And then my father was offered the part. And at that point, my father would have taken any role. I mean, he was a starving actor. Bela already was an established star in the stable. You know, I mean, that's what they were.

referred to by the studios. And Baylor, of course, was following in the footsteps of Cheney Sr. But the unfortunate decision that he made to turn down that role, then it was offered to my father. And history was made. Yeah, and, you know, one never knows how the film would have been received had anybody else played it. It would have been different.

That's all anybody can say. And they said, too, when Lagosie had turned it down, it was a different movie than the one... Well, it had a different director assigned to it. Yeah, I think Robert Florey was going to direct it, and the makeup was more like, looked like the Golem from the silent movies. And I think people who have seen the script... Proposed makeup. Yeah.

People who have seen the script and said... One person said Lagosie was... was right in turning it down, the one that he was offered. Now, also, your father, aside from knowing Cheney Sr., also worked several times with Long Cheney Jr. I think they only worked together once on TV. Well, yeah, that was Route 66. I don't think they made any films together.

He knows of stuff. Owlitz wing and lizard's tail. Is that the last time he wore the monster? Yes, yes. Carloff put on the Frankenstein makeup and Janie Jr. put on the Wolfman makeup for Rout 66. They worked together in one of those like Monster Mash-type movies back then when Universal was in House of Frankenstein.

Janie Jr. was the Wolfman. And your father was the evil scientist Joseph Niemann. Oh, yeah, yeah. The one that made him leave Universal. Well, I don't know. But did you ever meet Cheney Jr? or did he ever speak to him? No. No.

No. I know Ron Cheney, but no. My father never spoke of Cheney Jr. and he really never, I have an interview where he speaks about Bela, saying he was a fine actor, and he had great respect for him. Did he ever feel Sarah-type cast in horror films, or was he grateful for the fame that have brought him and grateful to be worked? Oh, he was very grateful for that role.

It made such a pivotal difference in his life, both personally and professionally. And he always said, you know, if you find something you can do and you do it well and it brings you fame and fortune, why in the world would you spit on it? I heard a story that your father, in like the last days of his life, he was in a hospital bed and he still had a voiceover that he had to do. So they brought the voiceover equipment to the hospital room. I don't know if you remember if he ever spoke to you about this but what I heard is they brought the voiceover equipment

and your father said isn't it wonderful even at a time like this to be doing something that you love well that certainly is the way he would have felt however he having died of emphysema

I don't know that he would have been able to do that he well I heard like in his last movies and that was also shows what a trooper he was, he would be, have an oxygen mask. Oh yes, that's

true, but I'm not sure that hospital would have allowed unstallel equipment into it. I want to ask Sarah about what we were talking about before, Gilbert, about arsenic and old lace. The joke in the play in the Broadway production was that he plays the

homicidal gangster who goes into a rage because people keep referring to him as as carloff, mistaking him for Boris Karloff, which is a joke that they kept in the movie that Frank Kapper made, even though Raymond Massey was playing the part and not your dad. And Gilbert and I were discussing how the joke never works because it's not Boris Karloff. Right, right. Yeah, the line was, his sidekick asked him, why did you kill him? and he said, because he said, I look like Boris Karloff. Which the audiences must have loved when he was in...

Oh, lots of a house down every night. Yeah, the joke made sense. Yeah, I don't know how it would have to possibly... Raymond Massey. He looked like Lars-Karloff. Why didn't he do the... Why didn't he do the Capra film? Was he otherwise?

They would not release him from the run of the play. I see. Oh. It's a shame. Mm-hmm. Oh, it is. It is. It's a terrible shame.

It's a fun little film, but what it's missing is Boris Karloff. And it would have been funny. Oh, it would have been. It would have been fun watching him play off of Peter Lurie in that. And Gary Grant, for that matter. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, it would have been great fun.

But, you know, that you can't, you know, they weren't going to release him from the run of the play. Now, your father at one point, he got so tired of, like, universal making and remaking the same film. over and over under different titles. I think he went to either Columbia or RKO. RKO, and he wanted to do something different. And then I think he felt then once again they were making the same films over and over again. Well, I'm not sure why he temporarily left Universal. I think it had he had been promised to raise if he had made a certain film he would get a raise on the next film and he didn't and so he walked.

Oh and I also, oh, go ahead. He was a man of great integrity. I heard that your father also not making demands and being a hard worker and easy to work with, he was like at one point, in the Frankenstein series, they had developed boots that were much lighter than the ones he was used to wearing. And they said, we can make these for you. And he turned them down and said, no, that he was fine with the Frankenstein boots he was wearing. Well, that's something I never heard, but I don't, you know, I have no way of knowing. I was not alive when those films were made.

I was born when Son of Frankenstein was made. Is it true? Is it true, Sarah, that you really don't like scary movies yourself? I do not like scary movies. I'm a wolf. The daughter of Frankenstein. I'm a total wuss. I leave in the room during murder, she wrote.

That's wonderful. Now, your father, I also have vague memories. I think this was wasn't man from uncle. It was either man from uncle or girl from uncle. Girl from uncle. And he played a woman. Oh, yes. He played Mother Muffin.

Yes. That's right. That's right. Girl from Uncle. Oh, yes. And when they finished the makeup, he looked in the mirror, and he said, I looked like a two-bit whore. I'm sorry to say that's actually how I discovered Boris Karloff was in the Wild Wild West and Route 66. And I spy before I ever saw it.

Before I ever saw the horror films. I mean, he was good. in them. But before I ever saw Frankenstein when I was a kid, he's good in those parts. He seemed to be having fun. Oh, he loved what he did. He absolutely loved what he did. What I remember, too, when your father passed away, I was a kid, and I looked in the newspaper, and there was, it said, you know, Boris Car, off dead at whatever age he died at and there was a picture in full Frankenstein makeup of the actor

Glenn Strange yeah they like didn't even bother to find the right uh frankenstein probably provided to them by universal yeah and I mean I remember as a kid at being such a fan of those movies right away I said that's going strange Yeah, probably Universal provided them with the photograph. They don't know. And I remember your father was also the villain in the secret life of Walter Middy. Oh, I know, with Danny Kay. Yes.

Yeah. Did he ever talk about that? Because he seemed like he enjoyed comedy. Oh, he did. He had a wonderful sense of humor. Wonderful sense of humor. He and my godmother used to exchange Christmas gifts and garbage cans. So he had a dark sense of humor as well.

Oh, he just had a lovely sense of humor. And he sent himself up, I mean, and things like Mad Monster Party. Oh, he really liked that, you know. Yeah, he took that, you know, that was great. That was fun. I mean, his career was long enough that he got to parody himself, which must have been a treat. Oh, yeah, I mean, to turn around and, you know, That's like Vincent and Peter Lorry in the Corman films.

They got to spoof their own boogeyman image. That was great fun for them. And I read somewhere that you would love to see Jeremy Irons play your dad. Is that right? Oh, how wonderful that would be. That would be wonderful. That would be great casting. Did you see the James Whale picture?

Yeah, yeah, gods and monsters. Yes, I did. Oh, what did you think of that? Oh, I thought it was great. I mean, you know, I'm delighted to see Whale got the credit and attention his brilliant directing deserves. I love the old dark house, too, speaking of Whale. Oh, yes. Oh, it's wonderful.

Talk about that atmospheric. Yeah, it's a good one. Yes, it is. It's wonderful. It was hard to find that film. It was out of print or something. It was very difficult to find. for years and it's got

it's got that all-star cast melvin douglas is in it and charles yon's in it and and and your dad is fun yeah yeah he looks like he's having fun yeah i mean i love it when he slides open the window on the door oh that's that's great that's a great scene and i just heard recently a recording of your dad

and beta lagosi on a radio show singing a song called We're Horrible, Horrible Men. Horrible, horrible, horrible songs. I hope to see that. And it was so funny. You could see that, you could just hear that the two of them were enjoying, like, making fun of themselves. Oh, sure. Why not?

You know, they had a good time. There's somebody working on a project of Bore Boris Karloff sings all the songs he sang on TV and on Broadway. Oh, my. He sang and danced. And it's funny because they mentioned... And the peppermint twist, yeah. Oh, was that on the Skelton Show?

On the Skelton Show. And as a matter of fact, there's an episode of The Honeymovers. That's right, where they reference Boris Carlos dancing at the Red Skelton Show. He says something like he goes, he goes, You know, when you see Boris Karloff and Frankenstein, that's Frankenstein. He goes, that's Boris Karloff. Not singing and dancing on the Red Skilton show. I believe he's talking about his mother-in-law.

Oh, how funny. Boris Karloff is an analogy. Oh, how funny. I thought that was so classic and such an honor that he's immortalized in the honeymooners. Oh, yeah. He's immortalized in a lot of ways. I tell you, Sarah, doing research today and just surfing the web and finding just all kinds of wonderful gems,

and this is your life episode that you are in. Yes. And it's fascinating to see the look on his face originally. He's waving when Ralph Edwards says, oh, Boris Karloff. And I think if you go and you watch it again, correct me if I'm wrong, he gives a little wave like, oh, I'll acknowledge that on Boris Karloff. He doesn't realize. that he's actually the subject.

Yeah, he thought he was being introduced because he was great friends with Ralph and Barbara. He had my stepmother, and they were great friends, and very often they would watch the show from the wings. And so he thought he was just being introduced, and he had always elicited to the promise from Ralph that he would never make him a subject of the show. Never, because my father was a very modest, very private person. and he was horrible. If you look, if you watch it and look, the second time he looks back and looks at my stepmother, he gives her a look that would fry anybody.

And he later said she sold him out for a washer and dryer. Great stuff. It is. It's a double take. The first time he looks up, it's like Ralph is acknowledging him, and he says, oh, yes, Liz, yes, I'm Boris Karloff. Thank you very much.

Hello, and this little wave, and then he looks over, and it's a triple take. Yeah. He looks over at my stepmother, and then he looks again, and when he realizes it. And it is a chilling look. It's wonderful. He's aghast. And the other thing I found was the other thing I found was the color, a color makeup test of him with Jack Pierce, clowning around with Jack Pierce.

Yeah, that's my home movies. Oh, it's great. It's great. I urge our listeners to find it. Because it's a funny... They're copyrighted, and it's not supposed to be findable. Oh, it's not. Forgive me.

I found it on YouTube. No, that's all right. I'm glad to know that it's findable because it's not supposed to be. It's copyrighted. Yeah. And that's wonderful stuff. It's great to see him. And it's again speaks to Jack Pierce's genius

because the greenish tint of the makeup was developed by Jack because he knew that then on black and white film it would come across as the deathly gray that's a great clip and it's funny because now when they'll do cartoons or uh any kind of Frankenstein appearance on a color film they make him green forgetting that the whole point was that he looked gray that's right and white that's right so the green is an error, really. Even in the color Munster's pictures, the Fred Gwynn version of Frankenstein is green.

That's right. Sarah, you know what I was going to ask you about? Now, is the internet letting me down again, or was your father's favorite actor really George Kennedy? Yes. That's fascinating. Did they have a relationship? No.

Were they friends, or he just admired his work? He just admired his work. And I met George Kennedy. at a show several years ago, and I had the opportunity to tell him that, and he cried. Oh, that's wonderful. Oh, my God. Yeah.

He said he had wished he met my father, and one time in New York, my father was across the street walking someplace, came out of a stage door, I guess, and George didn't, he said he almost walked across the street to meet him, and he'd always wished he had. Wow. And yeah, and I loved the fact that I told him.

Also on that, this is your life. They brought out Jack Pierce, the makeup genius from all those movies. And your father was so appreciative. And I think, I think, yeah. Yeah, he said, greatest makeup band in the world, I owe him a lot. That's right. My father genuinely meant that. And then later on, I think Jack Pierce wound up, well, he was kicked out by Universal after all.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He wound up being a makeup man on Mr. Ed, the talking close. That's what he was doing. That's what he was doing when they made This Is Your Life. Yeah, and the Westmore's had taken over by then. Oh, yeah. When Mel Brooks made the spoof when he made Young Frankenstein. Oh, you're groaning. Oh, I love it.

I love it. It's just my favorite film in the world. It didn't translate well into a play, but it was my favorite fan of film in the world. That's a wonderful picture. But they didn't have the rights to the Pierce makeup. Is that correct? I have no idea. Peter Boyle, of course, you wouldn't know this.

The makeup, the Peter Boyle's makeup is not Jack Pierce's makeup. Yeah, no. Oh, no, it isn't. But it wasn't supposed to be, really? I mean, come on. There's no stable in Frankenstein. That's true. How did your father feel about seeing the monsters?

I'm not sure he ever did. We'll assume he had a low opinion. He would have had a low opinion of it. Now, he didn't take part in Aben and Costello meet Frankenstein, but he did later on join them for Abenant Costello meet Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Did he ever talk about Avent and Costello? I don't remember. Tara, I just wanted to ask you about him referring to Halloween and Christmas as his busy season.

Yes. Yes. And it will be he did refer to it. referred to it as mine too. Because of the Grinch. Well, Christmas, because of the Grinch, yes. Right, right. And he was, some people thought

an actor named Thorold Ravenscroft actually sang. He did. He is the one who sang it. Right, who was also the voice of Tony the Tiger. That's right. That's absolutely right. For you, Trivia Buffs listening. And he was, your dad was sometimes

incorrectly credited with singing That's right But meanwhile it was a baritone voice Right If he pulled that off He really would have been a renaissance man Right Right now

The Grinch still lives on To this day That's what an amazing classic that is That every Christmas It's played every year The Grants Yeah played every Christmas It's a wonderful

Legacy for his family. It's a wonderful piece of work. Oh, it is. It's just, it's delightful. It's enchanting. It's everything it should be. I still get choked up and emotional watching it all these years later.

Yeah. It's just lovely. Look, when your father says, and his heart grew three times larger that day, it's really is the moment you choke up. Oh, yeah, and, you know, what's wrong with he had garlic in his soul? That's a lovely line. Don't we all know people like that? Well, also the rhymes, I mean, the difficulty of that dialogue and the challenge it must have been for him

and how effortlessly he pulls it all off. And changing from one to the other, from the narrator to the grins. Absolutely. It's just a great performance, a classic all-time performance. Yeah, it is. I'm very proud. And Chuck Jones, I think. That's right. Yeah, was the who was there.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, behind Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck. You can't do better than a collaboration of Chuck Jones and Boris Karloff. Well, and how unlikely. This is a timeless piece of work. Yeah. No, it was wonderful. Absolutely.

Well, Sarah, we had meant, of course, at a Chiller Convention. I'm going to be there this October. Oh, okay. I'm there every year. I'm just like a bad penny. And I remember my son met you, who was four years old. He looked at you, and he looked at a photograph of Frankenstein, your father, Frankenstein and looked at you very seriously and said you don't look like your father.

I'm so glad he said that. I would have had to eat him. That's great. Well, Sarah, I can't tell you how much I appreciate this. Well, it's been lots of fun. Thank you very, very much. It's been a treat, Sarah. Thanks for doing it. Oh, my pleasure, really. It's been lots of fun. And I'm not sure I understand what a podcast is any more than when we began, but I don't think I need to.

You, can I tell you something? I'm the host, and I don't really know what this is. Oh, good. That's nice. So Frank, know what it is? You know what it is? I can't operate my cell phone. So this podcast.

Oh, good. We have a nine-year-old that comes in and shows us everything. Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad, and I won't be expected to do anything about it. I'm so glad. So I'm Gilbert Gottfried and my co-host, Frank Santo Padre, the first time I got his name right. This is Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast, and we've been speaking to Boris Karloff's daughter, his pride and joy, Sarah Karloff. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you.