Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - GGACP Rewind: Episode #27: Steve Cox

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

Writer, journalist and pop culture expert Steve Cox has authored more than twenty books on film and television, including books about Johnny Carson, The Three Stooges, "The Addams Family," "I Dream of Jeannie," "The Munsters," "It’s a Wonderful Life" and "The Wizard of Oz." This week, Steve joins Gibert and Frank for a lively (and then some) conversation about Larry Fine’s lady-killing, the unappreciated comic timing of Fred Gwynne and “Grandpa” Al Lewis, and Abbott and Costello’s influence on Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David. PLUS: A Munchkin suicide hoax! Mayor McCheese cleans up! Buddy Hackett enjoys a malted! And Frank attends a Stooge funeral! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Malcolm in the middle, life's still unfair. A special four-part event, streaming April 10th on Hulu on Disney Plus. This is Gilbert Godfrey's amazing colossal podcast, and today my co-host, Frank Santo, Padre and I speak to pop culture author and expert Steve Cox. He's written books about Johnny Carson, Abbott and Costello, the Three Stoges, the Beverly Hillbillies, Gilligan's Island, and The Wizard of Oz, and many, many more. Steve shares fascinating and obscure stories about Hollywood. legends, some that may be true and some that

they aren't true. Listen and decide for yourself if you dare. Steve, hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried with my co-host Frank Santo Padre on Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast. Now, this next guy you might not know by name, but he's written here on Gilligan's Island, the munchkins of Oz, cooking with Oz,

dreaming of genies, TVs, prime time in a bottle. It's a wonderful life. One fine stooge about Larry Fine. The Munsters had dripped down Mockingbird Lane, short and sweet, the life of the lollipop munchkin

with Jerry Marin, and the... the incredible Mr. Donnots. So please welcome Steve Cox. Hey, guys, it's good to be with you. Thanks for doing it, Steve. So let's start. I'm obsessed with the Stooges too.

Are you? Oh, yeah, I love the Stooges. I grew up watching them. Yeah, well, yeah, but you guys had, who was it, Officer Joe Bolton introducing them? I grew up in Brooklyn, Officer Joe Bolton, yeah. I remember when I was a kid, I didn't know his show, but I called him because he was, I think he was mentioned in Mo Howard's book, you know, and he was this old guy that it was really nice to fans. He was listed in the phone book.

And did you ever talk to him? Did you ever meet him? No, I never met him. Yeah. Well, every city had one of these old guys, and they were mostly guys, too, that would be on these, these kiddie shows, you know? In St. Louis, it was before my time, but we had Harry Fender, who was an old Broadway actor, and he played Captain 11, and he was like a showboat, like a riverboat captain, you know, and he looked like Mark Twain.

That's what we had. You guys had Officer Joe Bolton, and every city had one of these guys that would introduce the stooges. Captain Jack McCarthy used to show the Popeye cartoons. Three bells and all as well. Yes. Yeah, isn't that great? Because everybody grew up with that stuff. And Chuck McCann.

Chuck McCann, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. He's still alive. And people loved him. You used to visit Larry Fine. No, no, no, no. No. I, you know what?

I was just sort of on the cusp there. I remember as a kid hearing when Mo died, and I was just devastated by this. And so I kind of missed, you know, corresponding or talking with Mo and Larry, I did get to know Joe Dorita pretty well, and also Joe Besser. And as a matter of fact, when Joe Derita died, I'm very proud of this. Now, let's, for people who don't know, Joe, Curly Joe Dorita was the very last of the third stooge.

Exactly. Right, right. and when I knew him, he was just miserably obese, a very, very large guy. And, you know, he would have fans over every once in a while he called him and got hold of his phone number. And he'd be sitting there in his house. I remember visiting him with my dad. I went out to Hollywood for a little father-son trip, that type of thing. I was 13, I think.

I went out to his house and visited him. The second time I went out there. he was comfortable with me and that and showed up at the door in his underwear in his underwear just as boxers and that's something i don't want to imagine and like a wife beat at wife beater huge you know he could barely walk and he would sit in this chair with you know this giant groin you know that sort of hung over that and i and i would and i would smoke his little cigars you know And I said to him, I said, Joe, you know, I kind of want to take a picture of you, but, you know, you're in your underwear. He said, well, what's the matter with my underwear?

It's clean. So I took some pictures. And, you know, stuff like that. But Joe was a great guy. And when he died, I slipped a cigar into his lapel. I asked his wife, I said, could I do this, send Joe off with a cigar? And she said, oh, yeah, that'd be, that'd be lovely, you know. and Joe was a good guy.

And he had a really good sense of humor. And Joe Besser, who was not that popular as, you know, one of the stooges, but more popular, I think, with Abbott and Costello. I mean, don't you guys agree with that? Yeah, stinky. Yes, Besser. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, really funny, instinctive comedian. And my God, Gilbert, you know, I mean, in a way, I compare him to you because, you know, His act was that unique. You know what I mean? And everybody tried to do him. This is the first time I've been compared to Joe Bessor in my entire career. This is kind of a special moment for me. Oh, that Gilbert Gottfried, he's a young Joe Besser.

The modern day Joe Besser. Now, you told me a story when you were a kid, you wrote Joe Besser. Bess, a fan letter? I did, yeah. I did. And I wanted to call him because, again, Joe Besser was listed in the phone book. There were a lot of stars back then that were listed in the phone book.

I think Stan Laurel. He was. Yeah, that was before my time, too. But, yeah, Stan Laurel. I remember Al Lewis was listed in the phone book. A lot of people like that, if you just kind of explored the directory a little bit. But Bessar, I wanted

to call him and my parents said, no, you better write him. You better write him a letter. And being from St. Louis, which is where he was from, I wrote him this great fan letter and that. And one night, I was watching TV with my parents. I remember the phone rings. It was like a Friday night, but eight o'clock. And he says, Steve, you know who this is? I said, I don't know. This is Joe Busser. And I just flipped. I couldn't believe it. And I remember asking, can I ask you a few questions? And, of course, I asked him about working with the stooges. And then I said, would you do one of your catch phrases? Would you, what?

Would you do one of your catch phrases? I'm sorry, I came here. Would you do one of your catchers? Not so loud, you know. That's wonderful. So it was great because he had set me up, you know. That was a great memory. And we became friends, and he was a nice guy.

I think he really didn't like the fact that so many people asked him about the Stooges. You know, he worked with everybody else. And he used to whine a lot. Oh, my God, I've done so much more Jack Betty and, you know, Jerry Lewis and all that stuff. But he was a good guy, you know. But he really wouldn't, like when you spend time with him, he wouldn't do the, you know, not so loud. You had to ask him to do it. You had to almost beg him to do that stuff.

Oh, and before I forget, now, Frank, you were at Curly Joe. Dorita's wake. I was. And I bet Steve was there too. Frank, you were there? You know, Steve, it's a weird story. I was living in L.A. and a friend of mine, Mark Newgarden, called me up and he said, Joe Derrita died and we're going over to the wake. I said, what do you mean, we're going? You don't

have a car. So he was calling me for a lift. And it was, if you remember, you must have been there. I was, yeah. It was in North Hollywood, and it was not well attended, as I remember. Oh, exactly. You know, we may have met there and and I don't even remember oh my god yeah there was like wouldn't you say there was less than 25 people there yeah I remember a row of people in the back row wearing wearing three stuja shirts oh my god which is a little disturbing and I took the mask card because I said I had to

have it actually gave it to a friend a friend of mine Tom leopold's comedy writer and he wanted it desperately so I gave him the mask card as a gift but it was very surreal and you know a little sad now yeah yeah go ahead go ahead No, I heard that of all people, son of Dracula, Bato Lagosie Jr., is the one who got, he was fighting to get money for people whose parents' images were being used. And I heard he was fighting for the stooges, or at least their children. and is it true that most of the three Stooges' fortune went to Curly Joe Derrida's descendants? Yeah, in a way, in a way, in that the minute Joe Derrida died, his two step-sons, who were both lawyers, got together, and because they had seen, you know, the other families, well, essentially Mo's

family, getting all the money from merchandising and that type of thing, not Larry's family, not anybody else's family. Curly and Shemp's families were paid off years ago. So in the picture was any monies coming from the stooges from the mid-60s went to Moe Larry and Curly Joe as a team. But then when they started dying off, most of the money was going to Moe's family. So Curly Joe's family finally said, that's it. and this but joe du reida did not want them to file suit he didn't want to make waves the minute he died

and i mean the minute he died his his two step-sons uh not his sons but step-sons filed suit against mo's family which essentially held all the rights and all that and one and so the rights and and found most family negligent um could have sent one of the family members to jail, but instead gave them the option that either relinquish your right, you're voting right to the stooges to us. So right now as it stands, the company that Moly and Curly Joe started, which was called Comedy 3, still exists. Only now Larry's family and Curly Joe's family pretty much control it with two.

thirds of the rights and most friend most family also shares in the money but they don't have voting rights they you know control over the company so essentially and and then curly joe's family pretty much runs it so yeah the the the what the monies that come in from the movies and all that stuff that's all controlled essentially by curly joe's family and that's where it stands so uh yeah it's unusual isn't it yeah it's very unusual especially since when i was a kid watching it, I used to go, who the hell is this guy? He's fat, he's bald. He's not curly. No, yeah. And no, it was like, I remember going, hey, buddy boy, and that was

about it. Yeah. Oh, yeah, exactly. And almost kind of mean-looking. He had, he was, you know, he was kind of mean, and certainly not as graceful as current. You know, it was heavy, but he was more obese, heavy. Yeah, Curly was lovable and vulnerable. Curly Joe Derita to me always looked like when they had a cast, Mo and Larry looked out in the street, and this fat guy was walking by and got, hey, would you shave your head? Okay, you're hired.

Right. It's true. But you know what? In real life, though, if you got him alone, he didn't think he would say this. He never thought that the stooges were that funny, but he did have a good, he did have a good fraud-ville sense of bottom and would really be funny with observations and things like that and had a good sense of humor. I remember this too.

I was sitting there with my dad with him, and Joe was trying to tell my dad, he was trying to pay a compliment in that. He looked at my dad and he says, Steve, he's pushy. And my dad goes, what? And he goes, he's pushy. And then I think my dad figured out he meant pushy, not pussy. Pussy, meaning, you know, tenacious. And my dad, I just remember my dad looking at it. I'm like, what the hell?

But, yeah, Joe was a good guy. He was a good guy, just not that popular. And then he ended up being the last stooge. and his, now I'm not saying this to tube my horn, but I'm only saying it because it's true. When he died there, he didn't have much money. I mean, that's one of the reasons they sued. I mean, he just wasn't getting any money from the Stooges corporation at all. And his step-sons were essentially supporting Joe and that, and they filed that suit.

but his wife claimed that they didn't have money to even acquire the headstone. So one of the munchkins from the wood, now this is true. One of the munchkins from the segue. I know it sounds bizarre, but. It's more and more surreal. I know. He was bad enough. He was bad enough imagining Curly Joe Derreter in his underwear.

Or that he compared to Joe Bess? Yes. exactly and this is true though one of the munchkins from the wizard of Oz who lived in st. Louis and I grew up with him that's how I got into midgets he he he he he I don't know if you should admit to that on the air well I think that's a law again a mild fascination mild but he did this guy Mickey Carroll, who was a midget and he worked in the Wizard of Oz. His family business, after he quit show business, was making headstones. And so I told him about this.

He said, look, I'll make the headstone. You guys pay for the installation. And me and a few fans, we put the money together and gave it to Mickey. He had this black marble headstone made with Joe's face on it and did it with, it was like an etching of his face and did it with Gene Dorita, Joe's wife and they wanted on there

the last stooge and that was his gravestone. And a lot of fans visit that gravestone too. It's kind of unusual. But he was the last stooge. The last stooge. Now, did you know Vernon Dent? Yeah, I think he's

great. He was great. Yeah, Vernon Dent was, he always played like gangsters in the Stoge's movies. He was a big guy, big husky guy, tough guy. Yeah. Oh, absolutely, yeah. So what do you know about Vernon Den?

You know what I know about, well, of course, what, what Stoge's fan see of him, which is, you know, in almost every other curly short and champ. But one time I got hold of his wife on the phone. Her name was, I think Eunice, Eunice Dent. And this is, you know, long after he had. died. And I was so surprised. I couldn't believe she was still alive. And she told me all a bottom. I just couldn't get enough asking about him how his hair was snow white when he got old. He went blind. And he was pretty heavy. Still, he said he was diabetic. That's why he went

blind. And he didn't take control of his diabetes. So it progressed like that. And I remember she said that he was also a dog lover and that Curley gave them a little dog. He had found somewhere on the road, brought it home, and gave it to Eunice and Vernon. I thought that was kind of an interesting detail. Like Curly used to collect dogs that he'd find, stray dogs. That's true. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's what his, I knew one of his wives pretty well.

And Elaine, his second wife, and she said that he would pick them up everywhere. I mean, they had several dogs, but he really, really loved playing with dogs and just, and all types of dogs, not just one type or anything. And, you know, always had to have a backyard wherever he lived with plenty of space for the dogs. And then would eventually find dogs out on the road, you know, bring them on the train trips and that, you know, but then he would have to sort of get rid of him, which would be like a heartache because he had enough at home. home. But yeah, I'm working, right now, I'm working on a book on Curly, and just I think it's going to be an amazing book, and with a lot of rare color photography that nobody's ever seen. Did our mutual friend Drew Friedman do something for the Curly book?

He has promised me, and I'm going to hold him to him, too. Okay. That's what we heard. Absolutely. He told me that Larry Fine was something of a lady killer, Stephen. Is this true? I'll have a hard time wrapping my mind around it. I know. It is kind of weird, isn't it?

Here's the story that I heard, and unfortunately, did not make it into my book on Larry, One Fine Stoge. But this is true. A good friend of Larry's told me this, that when Larry was out on the road, and his wife got wind of him fooling around and messing around while out on the road. A lot of it. So she got pissed at him and said, okay, this is what we're going to plan here. When Larry would call home, or if she would call him, let's say in Kansas City at 10.30 at night, just to make sure he's doing okay in that, the signal was he, she said, okay, say it, say it. and Larry would have to say into the phone I'm laying here with a dirty rotten whore

so it was you know to either embarrass the whore that he was with you know or not if he was alone so he would have to say that she would say say it say it and he'd have to say that

so yeah I guess Larry did get around a little bit bit. And Larry's wife, though, went a little nutty, didn't she? Wasn't she an alcoholic? Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, aren't we all? But she got, she got, she would be violent. She, you know, she would throw things at them and, and, and, like, ceramic ashtrays and, you know, And she, I guess, just the filthiest mouth on her and would get really, really drunk and then send Larry out for Chinese food at three in the morning, you know.

Now, did Mo visit Vernon Dent toward the end of his life? I heard he used to visit him a lot. I don't know. I really don't know. And, you know, those are questions that I, gosh, if I had known Moe, I would have really gotten in there and started asking questions. You know, I want to know if he ever met Chaplin. I want to know if he ever, did he interact with, you know, other great comedians and that type of thing.

And there's some fans that would get in there and meet with Mo and ask certain questions. But, you know, damn, I wish I could have gotten in there to really. And same with Larry, you know. And, you know, where were they when Kennedy was shot? You know, there's a lot of questions. Do you suspect one of them? Is it being involved in some of the same? No, no, but you know what I mean.

Your Larry is impeccable, by the way. It's Billy Westgood, I dare say. Now, you're getting back to the Wizard of Oz. What about that great story of that if you watch the Wizard of Oz, one of the, the Munchman's hung himself, and you could see him hanging in the movie. I know. That story didn't start to like around the 80s, you know,

and I'd love to know who just really was the root source of that thing. I'd love for it to be true. It's so good. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's nice to look around, but, you know, it never happened. I mean, lots of weird stuff happened on that set, but not bad.

Yeah. Frank and I were talking. that Judy Garland started the rumor that all of the Munchkins. On the Jack Parr Show, right? Yeah, right, Stephen? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, you know, in the last 25 years, I had to watch these midgets go on appearances. And every time they're, you know. That's not the correct term. It's munchkin. It's right. You see. A small person, call them a munchkin.

Lundskine. Oh, God. I can't tell you how many times. Well, that's true. And the dwarves, oh, my God, they really get after me first, calling, you know, referring to the midgets as midgets. But the thing of it is, all the midgets are gone. You see what I'm saying?

So it's the dwarfs that want to wipe away the term midgett. Because all the, but the midgets never minded being called midgets. What about fidget? That's what's so weird. Rascal homage. But wait, wait, so is there like a war between midgets and dwarves? Yes, there is. I mean, let's just put it out there.

You know, there is because, and midgett. And this is true, because the midgets were proportionally correct. You know what I mean? And got a lot of roles because that's what the studio was. it. And the dwarves should get pissed at the midgets. So, so dwarves? Oh, yeah.

Dwarfs weren't like deformed midgets? That's a way to put it. You know, they're proportionally incorrect. So the midgets are like you and I only miniature. That's the way that, you know. That's the way to. Figure it, you know. Or I try to tell people, dwarfs are the oompa-lumpas.

The midgets are the munchkins. They love that, too. That's how you can tell, you know. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this. When the weather cools down, Golden Nugget Online Casino turns up the heat. This winter, make any moment golden and play thousands of games like her new slot, wolf it up, and all the fan-favored Huff and Puff games.

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I wonder what. I heard that through the midget grapevine. I don't know what you did to him, but he's not happy. Now, what category would Beetlejuice be in?

I think he's a midget. What I've seen, I think he's a midget. Yeah. Now, we'll get back to the Wizard of Oz. But I forget his name now, Dr. Loveless from Wild Wild West. Oh, yeah.

Michael Donne. Michael Dunn. Michael Dunn, yeah. Very good. What do you know about Michael? No, he's a dwarf. I don't know much about him. He died young, you know.

I heard he was a nice guy. I heard he was a nice guy. Oh, and he was in Chip of Fools. Oh, yeah, he did a lot. A lot of films. Yeah. Yeah. Good little actor. Absolutely. So you worked with the munchkins on a book, Stephen, and they were not drunks. You want to dispel that myth. It's true. It's true. I mean, yeah. You know, Judy Garland, she goes on this show, okay? And she is, you know, half-cropped herself. And she says, well, they were all drunks. They were two inches tall. They asked her out on dates and stuff like that. And, you know, she's trying to be funny and all that. But then over the years, years that developed into this huge myth and urban legend and all that stuff. And so I felt bad because I know that the Munchkins entrusted me in my book to make sure to try to straighten the story.

But no matter where they went, everybody asked them that question. So, you know, they were embarrassed. And in a way, I blame that on Judy Garland, really for perpetuating that, putting that out there, and making those little people suffer with having to answer those. stupid questions. You know what I mean? Were you drunk? Where was everybody drunk? Were there orgies and stuff like that? And so we used to make fun, you know,

like Margaret Pellegrini, one of the very, uh, more prominent little people that that went on tours and stuff like that, uh, and was one of the munchkins. I would joke with her and say, well, you weren't invited to the parties, you know, and, and we make a joke out of it,

but they were really embarrassed by it, you know, uh, most, most, most, Most all of them were embarrassed. There were a few that were drunks, and one of them showed up on the set with a gun. And, you know, they had to get that taken care of quickly. But, you know, they have handcuffs small enough. And, you know, some of those people were so small.

I mean, they had to help them on the toilets, literally, because they would fall in. They were that small. and they had to help them with their costumes and, you know, help them go to the bathroom. And they had special tables for their lunches and stuff like that really, you know, low. Because these, the midgets were the ones that we saw in the past 25 years that attended festivals and things like that. Now, they all grew. You know, they grew after the Wizard of Oz. Now, they all lived, it seems like most of them lived to a ripe old age.

Right. which is another difference between dwarfs and midgets. You rarely ever see an old dwarf. I'm not making this up. I'm not making this up. But you will see old midgets. They're just like us. They live, you know.

And right now, there's only one munchkin left, Jerry Maren, who was the Lollipop Munchkin. He's 94, and he's the last one, the last one. Ruth Bucinni passed, right? She was the last female Munchkin? Ruth Ducine, that's right, exactly, yeah. And, in fact, they both did a little bit of publicity last year for Warner Brothers' you know, 50th, excuse me, 75th anniversary stuff, which was a year before.

The actual anniversary is in about four weeks. That's exactly to the date. 75 years after it premiered at Grownman. But they did something last year for the promotion of the new box set and all that. And they couldn't get the two Munchkins together. Jerry lived here in L.A. Ruth came in from Vegas. And it was really nostalgic because they were doing separate sort of promos,

different days. But Ruth said, she told me, Steve, I want to see Jerry one last time. and privately I took her over to where Jerry was staying, and they got together and had a visit, and that was the last time the two Munchkins got together. And it was really, really sad in a way because they were about to leave, and, you know, Jerry gives her a hug and says, I don't want to be the last one, you know.

And it was very warm, and my God, I almost started crying. But they hugged, and they knew that would be the last time they'd see each other, and Ruth died not long after that, and Jerry was the last one. And I went over where he's living, and I said, Jerry, you're the last one. And he said, oh, she died. And I said, yeah, and I said, you're the one. And it was weird because when I researched the munchkins years ago in the 80s, there was 33 of them still alive. And I always wondered right then, who's going to be the last one?

Oh, wow. But to me, it's kind of exciting that the last one is the most beloved munchkin of them all. If you ever see somebody do a parody of the munchkins, who do they do, the lollipop munchkin? You know what I mean? Now, is it true that Toto, the little dog Toto, was paid more than the munchkins weren't? Yeah, that's true. They didn't know it at the time, but yeah, that's true. Jerry Maren was in a lot of other things, wasn't he, Stephen?

I seem to remember him from an odd couple episode. Yeah, that, in fact, Frank, that is one of his most, that's one of the proudest things he's done in his career. Yeah, he was funny. Yeah, and he played like a little racing, what do you call it? Yeah, he was a jockey who was giving Oscar and Felix tips on the horses. His name was Harry Tolman. Right, that's right. Exactly.

And he'd be in this trench coat and he'd like, you know, meet him at odd places and stuff. But he loved that role. of that role and yeah he did tons of stuff he worked with the marks brothers I think is he at the circus right yeah he worked a lot tons of movies films you know where he made his money because

Jerry is a millionaire many times over really and you and so yeah you know where he made all his money he he did McDonald's commercials uh in the late 60s uh for about 10 years and he played mayor McChee

and hamburger, sometimes the, the, oh, what was the grimmis? No, not grimace, the one that, well, the hamburger, hamburger, hamburger, would say, robble, robble, you know. Oh, yeah.

And so, you know, you remember, you guys saw the same thing as me, every Saturday mornings. Sure. Those commercials were all over the place, and they did those things for 10 years, and holy mackerel, the money that he made on those

was unbelievable. And that's that, yeah, that and investments in Hollywood. Now, tell us stuff about the Munsters. You wrote a book about the Munsters. And we had Butch Patrick on the other day. Oh, did you? Yeah, he's great. He's great.

Yeah. Butch, the first time I met him, I meet him at a, he and Al Lewis were doing an appearance at a circus in Indiana. And I drive up there and, you know. And Butch, he won't remember this, but the first time I meet him, he's, he, I come into his hotel room and he lights up a joint. And I'm thinking, little Eddie Munster lit up a joint. Yeah. And it wasn't so bad. I didn't care.

But number one, he didn't offer me any. And number two, so he was stingy with it. But I'm thinking, oh, my God, I'm here, you know, as a writer, I could write about this if I wanted. didn't, you know, but I thought it, you know, my God, he's pretty trusting, you know, but I didn't write about that. And he's kind of sober now these days, I know. But the Monsters is one of my favorite books. The only regret was Fred Gwynn. I mean, I tried desperately to contact him, which I did. And he turned me down for an interview. I did talk with him. But he was kind of mean in a way, you know, his agent, his publicist, everybody kept giving me no, no,

no, no, he doesn't want to talk about the monsters, but I thought if I'm going to get rejected, I want to be rejected by him. So finally, I hunted him down and got him on the phone, and I told him what I was doing, and I asked him for an interview, and he said, no, I just, no, no, I don't think so. And I mean, I tried every way to practically beg him, and finally, it got down to, you know, didn't, when you were starting out in your career, didn't anybody ever give you a break? He said, no. You know? He just tells me no.

And so he just didn't, but at the end of the conversation, and then he asked me to, you know, where I got his number, and I explained to him that I hunted it down because he was listed under his girlfriend's number at that time, and they were living together on Bleaker Street in the village over there. and uh... he said all you should have been a private investigator instead of a writer you know and uh... you know it's somewhat kind but he just didn't want to talk about the monsters now i found out later that he had a son

that died in the drowned in their pool during the monster's production and so i'm thinking later on i'm thinking you know he must have thought i i knew it and that i would be getting into that topic which i wouldn't have uh... And, you know, I would have been asking the more, the comic questions about the makeup and the production and all that stuff. But maybe he just didn't want to go there because of that.

So I had never heard this story. Nor me. I haven't heard it either. Yeah. He had a son who died in the, so the Munsters had a swimming pool on their show. Yeah. And, well, his private, you know, his private pool. And he, yeah, his son felt it was drowned in the pool.

I'm not exactly sure of the exact circumstances, but it was during the production of the monsters. And so, of course, he was devastated by this, and the other cast members knew it. And so when I found out, I think Butch is the one that told me about it, as a matter of fact. And so I didn't really get into that in the book. I don't remember what I revised the book later, and I think maybe I did mention it in that. Fred was dead by that time. and there were also rumors about an affair between Beverly Owen and Fred during, you know, she did the first 13 episodes as Maryland. And they lived together.

They were friends in New York. She came out to L.A. at the same time, she would babysit his kids at the everything. And there were rumors that they had an affair. And that's one of the reasons she also left. So that's, you know, allegedly those. I'm sorry, Steve. The official story they always give is that she was going back to a boyfriend that she couldn't stand to be apart from. Right.

That's the official story. I see. So there you go. But, you know, what are you going to say? But, you know, they remain friends. Beverly and Fred Gwyn remained friends all the way to the end. And I spoke with her about the Munsters, and she seemed to say that she was very heartbroken, just didn't want to be in L.A. and wanted to leave and asked to get out.

out of there and she did so uh... it but you know i tell you though the best interview all the way through and the guy that was the most encouraging to me was al lewis uh... i i had dedicated uh... the book to him uh... and and my grandparents because he was my favorite character over and above uh... fred uh... you know everybody has their favorite monster but mine was al lewis and he

always treated me so well and encourage me remember i did when i graduate from high school, he says, you've got to go to college. You get yourself in college. You've got to do it. That's the only way you can make his success of yourself. And that type of thing, you know, he was a great, great guy. Yeah.

Now, they were friends, Fred Gwynn and Al Lewis. I heard. They were. And they had a falling out somewhere along the way. That's what I heard. Yeah, I'm not exactly sure really what it was, but it was right around that time, you know, I mean, they were still friendly when Al opened his restaurant there in the village. But I don't know exactly what else happened.

I don't think Al even quite knew what it was. He wanted to be friends with Fred, but I think Fred's wife sort of pulled him away from the whole monster stuff and got him away from that trying to do some more serious acting and things like that or anything. And so, even though they were friends with Beverly Owen, he pulled away from Al, and Al didn't quite understand it, you know. But, yeah, they were good friends. I mean, the best of friends at one time. But you know how it is, you know. Yeah, they met on, I guess, on Car 54.

Yeah. And a great comedy team. They were just, their timing was terrific. They were a great pair. Yeah, weren't they? Yeah, they really were. We talked about it with Bush. What do you know about Abin and Costello?

Well, I mean, my memory's going to fade a little bit, but years ago, another writer and I, John Loughlin, we put together a book called The Abin Costello Scrapbook, and I'm probably say I think it's one of the better books on their career. And, you know, we just got to, you know, after interviewing a lot of people that were still alive back then, you know, Sheldon Leonard and family members, members and and and even Bud's but I have a sister and things like that it was such a

sad story you know I mean how they lost all their money and just they gambled it all away and the IRS just you know ate them alive it was just so sad and Lou was sad and Bud was sad I mean they were both like really warm fathers and and love their families and provided for their families but then how it split up and you know you know it's interesting is ken berry you know from after yes uh and that he was in the show that the last show that they did in Vegas so this is in the late 50s just before they broke up what right when they broke up and he was one of the dancers in the show and I interviewed him about this you know and he said that but you know bud drank a lot at that point and that's why Lou got pissed and said that's that

that's it. And one of the nights just said, that's it. I'm not working again. And they parted ways. And that was it. And, you know, the ending was just so sad. It's weird. But it's kind of funny. I found Abbott and Costello sort of in reverse. I didn't watch the movies. I watched the cartoon shows from Hanna Barbera. And then went backwards. You know what I mean? Oh, it's still where we? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Gilbert and I talk about the awful Bud and Lou movie, Stephen, with Buddy Hackett and Harvey Corman. My old time, actually, this is my favorite. It's my old time favorite death scene.

Buddy Hackett as the dying Lou Costello is there, and Artie Johnson, as his agent comes in. I think his agent's name was Irving. Eddie, Eddie. And he sneaks in a strawberry multed. And Buddy Hackett goes,

you know, Eddie, I hire a lot of strawberry mulchage in my day, but this one's the best. And then he dies.

He's not bad. More maltage. Yeah. Is that great? I know. What a death scene. It's a painful movie because you're wanting them do who's on first. It's like they've never watched it before.

It's true. It was so slow. It was like they handed them the script right then and they said, action. And they go, oh, just do this? Like, you think they had no idea who happened and Costella were. Oh, it's true. I think the cast. on that was on theory

on paper was great but you get these guys together oh and I love too busy being Buddy Hackett to be anybody else and I remember Buddy Hackett it's like rather than what's the guy's name on first base what's the guy's name on second

you know that quick patter that musical way about it it was like what the guy's name on like yeah Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

It was. It's so bad. It really is. It's one of our favorite bad biopics. It really, it really is. And you know, there's some guys, a buddy and I just watched the Martin Lewis one. I liked it. It was really good, you know, huh?

With Sean Hayes. Right. Did you guys like it? I liked it. Oh, yeah. I enjoyed it. Sean Hayes now has the distinction of playing Jerry Lewis and Larry Fine. That's true.

Is that amazing? Who in your opinion was responsible for the surreal quality of the Abbott and Costello series? Because I talk about it with Drew all the time. Gilbert and I have talked about it much more so than the movies. It's dreamlike. Yes. There's something. It's almost da-da.

It's very, very strange. And I know Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld were heavily influenced by it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. is all due to bingo the chimp. I think, come on. Now, tell us about Sid Fields. Was Sid Fields one of the people behind?

Because Drew says that Sid Fields had a lot to do with the tone of that show and the... Yes, that's what I was told. That's what I was told. And I know Jim Mulholland was a great writer, was Carson and his monologue writer. He interviewed Sid Fields, I know, and got a lot of details. out of him. And, yeah, I think so. And Bud and Lou were just, I think at that point in their career,

we're interested in not so much memorizing lines or new routines, but how can we work in the old routines? And so I think that they put on the shoulders of Sidfields, a lot of that to just come up with stuff, and let's tie these shows together because they're so loose. You know, there's nothing to them. Personally, I like Hillary Brooke. I thought she was great.

And of course, Besser, I watch for his scenes, you know, because they're so bizarre. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast, but first a word from our sponsor. Uh, where are my gloves? Come on, heat. Any day now? Winter is hard, but your groceries don't have to be. This winter, stay warm. Tap the banner to order your groceries online at voila.ca.

Enjoy in-store prices without leaving your home. You'll find the same regular prices online as in-store. Many promotions are available both in-store and online, though some may vary. When Westchette first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion, in-line skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when West Jet welcomes you on board.

Here's to Westjetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. Well, there was one Seinfeld episode where I guess Kramer and Newman are arguing about something, and Seinfeld goes, boys, boys. Oh, he does a Sidfield Stinkie. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, wasn't the Newman character basically created to be stinky?

You know, I never thought about that, but I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. The antagonist that shows up and he's, you know, and he's chunky and he's... You know, the thing about the A&C show as a kid watching it, it's just... There was a darkness to it. There was a cruelty. Oh, yes.

You know, the one where Lewis is trying to celebrate his birthday? Oh, my God. I was just thinking about that. That one depressed me as a kid. Me too. Yeah. With Mr. Bocchagaloo. What does he think of that I remember?

He makes him the cake. Oh, it's so awful. Yeah. Yes, it is bad. There was an element of cruelty. Yeah, I was a kid, and I was depressed by that one. It was disturbing. And the music in the background that they put in, it's just so bad also, that, you know, it didn't help.

But I will say this for the show, because it is entertaining. but when they go to the old actors home, they do Who's on First? That is one of the better of the versions ever put on film of Who's on First. I much prefer that than that, you know, gay 90s Riverboat one they did on Universal, you know. Yeah, much better version. But, oh, yeah, I mean, the show was great.

And Hillary Brooke, you know, to me, played it so perfectly, just perfectly straight. you know, always calling him Lewis. And you could see the influences on Seinfeld and Larry David. Now, you know. This, this, I don't even know if we can use it, but it's something that everybody who knows old showbiz talks about. And it's perfect that lightning just struck. It's like a Frankenstein movie.

I just heard thunder. Thunder is happening right as I mentioned this. And so in two words, Danny Thomas. Oh, God. Could you be referring to, Gilbert? That he had a popular sitcom. Yes, yes. Well, look, you know, I don't know what I should tell you guys or not,

but I'm going to do it. And I'm going to put this on your shoulders whether you want to use this or not. You know, yes. But, you know, it's strangely, it's, I mean, this, this is legendary. And I heard about this years and years ago. And, of course, it's, even if you Google it, you know, eggs Danny Thomas style. It's right there. And years ago, a friend of mine told me this story.

And I said, oh, my God, you can't believe it. And the story is that Danny Thomas allegedly had sort of, you know, proclivity for he liked a woman to shit in his mouth there's no other way to put it you know and this is something

that he liked so I'm kind of thinking okay and people in show business it's you know I mean it's as well known as as Milton Burle Schlong so you know and every school kid knows this

it's true See, I like to have an intellectual show. I pride myself on good taste and stuff that's really subtle and you've got to think about it. Yeah. Well, this is the story. So he liked women to shit. In his mouth. Yeah.

This was his fetish. Okay. Now, if I can argue with you. Sure. I heard he liked to lie on the floor. and have women's shit on a glass coffee table, which would have been a lot more decent. True.

Now, I heard this was allegedly attributed to Jerry Lewis. Jerry Lewis? Yes, the glass table story. The glass table story had evidently nothing to do with Danny Thomas. Now, let me tell you... Now, wait, wait. When the girls were shitting on the coffee table over Jerry Lewis, is it true that he was going,

Yeah, hi, my wife, how you? Oh, with the thing, with the duty and the patient. Ah, ha, ha, ha, yeah. That could very well be. I'll make the big breath. On the thing, on the table, where you got to wipe off with a sponge. You know, I can see it. I can just say it.

But that's, and I say that, though, not because Jerry Lewis was an ass to me. I have heard that attribute it to him. Whitey! Waity, can you squeeze out a bigger duty in the thing? Not in the mouth like with it. Oh, God. Oh, God. That's funny, Gilbert.

Hey, can you, can you, can you, can you take your shit on me like Dean Martin used to when we were a team? Oh, God. Oh, Gilbert, God. That is great. Me, why great shit on D. Tommy. Amazing. Oh,

yes. You ever heard that about Jerry Lewis? Yeah. Called me that to make it. Wait a minute.

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I got to tell you, I got to tell you about the Danny Thomas part, though. This is, that's the people are thinking,

I'm sure, people are thinking, oh, come on, he just made this up. But I, you know, we had a mutual friend, which was Sid Melton.

Sid Melton. Yes. Sid Melton. Do you remember Sid? I met him a couple of times. He was very nice guy. Drew Friedman is obsessed with him. And Sid, I got to know him when I was working on a book on Green Acres.

And we used to go to lunches a lot. And then he started sort of relying on me to drive in places and stuff like that and take his dog to the vet and, you know, and I heard you had to run in with his dog and all kinds of stuff. Well, Sid, once I got real comfortable with him after a few years, you know, he'll always talked about Danny Thomas, and he was on the Danny Thomas show. He was best friends with Danny Thomas. And so I thought, okay, I can ask him about this. So we're at lunch one day, and I said, I'm going to ask you a question about Danny Thomas.

And he says, I know what you're going to ask. And I said, you do? And he goes, yeah. And this is exactly what he said. He said, you mean the feces as an appetizer? And I said, oh, my God. It sounded like a main course. The way I heard.

And on the woman. And so, Sid, I looked at him. Tony Fields. Totally different. So I said, I said to Sid, oh, my God, you know, I couldn't believe he said this before I got it up. And he said, oh, that's, that's what Danny Thomas. I can't believe I said it before she got it out. Got it out.

And so I asked Sid, I said, are you serious? He says, this is exactly what he said to me. I know it to be true because I knew his mistress, and she told me what he liked to do. And I said, oh, my God, I said, what do you think about that? He goes, well, everybody's got their own thing. and that was it. Now, he was Danny Thomas' best friend. So,

that's that. And I'll put my hand on the Bible. That happened. Now, is it true that Danny Thomas' mistress before the date would go to the hamburger hamlet and eat a couple of plates of angelia pop? Let's the call back. And is it true?

True that one time she was constipated, Danny Thomas cried, you don't love me anymore. Oh, man. Did the sound of, da, da, da, da. Move this on, Steve, makers. And I understand you haven't. I heard. I heard.

I heard. I heard of Gabor used to shit. That's why you had the pitch, I understand you have an Ava Gabor story. Yeah. That Jerry coach used to shit on Ava Gabor. Ava, well, she... Hey, Ava!

Open your mouth. Yeah, oh, Ava, she was something. Yeah, yeah, Ava Gaborne. Yeah, Ava Gabor, I do have a good name of Gabor story. She, uh... Yeah, he's doing this book on Green Acres. And she was nice. She was really nice to me.

I interviewed her at her house in this mansion, you know. And she was great. She was great. But at one point when I was interviewing her, I brought over, which is what I do a lot of times, I'll bring over a stack of pictures from like that show or something. And Ava was sitting on her couch, and she's just looking through. through the pictures, and usually the pictures, like old publicity pictures, will spark some memories and that kind of thing.

And she's sitting there, and I'm asking her questions, and she's looking through the pictures and commenting on them, and she just starts making a separate pile. Just, you know, just making a separate pile. That's what used to happen with Danny Tom. His mistress made a separate pile. What's a Danny? and the other been Jerry.

Oh, God, I knew as soon as I said that, I knew as soon as I said that, I knew that you were going to say something. I should have said that. Choose your words carefully from this point on. Allegedly. Allegedly. Now, I, just before we wrap, I have one question. Why did you think of that scene in the Buttonloo movie where Costello goes, Hey, Habit, can you take a crap on me?

Could you forge out a bow movement in my mouth? Okay, we've been cooking. That's your closer. Where's on my podcast of that? Come on. And is it true that Luke Costello, when he was taking a dump, would force it out by going, I bet there's truth to that, Gilbert. I can see it.

We've been talking to Steve Cox, writer of endless books on old Hollywood. Steve, will you come back and talk about it's a wonderful life next time? Yeah, please. We know where that would go. You heard, It's a Wonderful Life is what Danny Thomas said when the girl was shitting on him.

Oh, Lord. Thank you. Steve, thanks for doing it. Thank you, Steve Cox. You're a trooper. No, Bob. Thanks, thanks. Thanks, guys. I had a great time. Tell me any time. Looks for his books on Amazon, folks.

He's written every. book imaginable. Johnny Carson, Beverly Hillbillies, Gilligan's Island. Thank you, buddy. Hey, thanks, guys. No, really. I had a great time. Thank you. Get 10% off any foot cardigan subscription by going to footcardigan.com and entering Frosty 3 during the checkout. That's Frosty 3 at Footcardigan. dot com.