Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - GGACP Rewind: Episode #50: Michael Nesmith

Episode Date: July 23, 2026

Gilbert and Frank attend the 2015 Chiller Convention, where they manage to snag a rare interview with musician, songwriter and producer Michael Nesmith. In this episode, Nesmith looks back on everything from his mom’s invention of Liquid Paper to his original “Monkees” screen test in October of ’65. Also, Michael talks politics with John Lennon, pens a hit for Linda Ronstadt and remembers (sort of) Lon Chaney Jr. PLUS: Dennis Hopper! Tony Franciosa! The Monkees “sell out”! Roger McGuinn gets spiritual! And Jack Nicholson kills off the Prefab Four! https://www.gilbertpodcast.com/50-50-michael-nesmith/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at bellair direct.com. This episode is sponsored by Dashlane. Never forget another password on your computer or iPhone with Dashlane. Get it for free at D-A-S-H-L-A-N. n.com slash gilbert that name sounds familiar free and this is gilbert godfried's amazing colossal podcast i'm here with my co-host

frank santo padre we're here at the chilla theater expo and our guest this week is a musician songwriter actor producer novelist and businessman who also also happens to be a member of the legendary and iconic rock band known as the Monkeys. He's written hit songs that have been recorded by everyone from Linda Ronstadt to run DMC. He's also a film producer with credits like Rep Repo Man and Tapeheads starring John Cusack and Tim Robbins. And if All that wasn't enough. He also practically invented music videos developing a format that would eventually become MTV. And most importantly, we hugged in the elevator.

And I still have an erection. Please welcome the multi-talented Michael Nesmetz. What are you thinking of my cologne? That was good, huh? That's who should be? Ron. Yeah, I didn't wash after that. No, no, I wouldn't.

I mean, it's expensive. It smells great, doesn't it? Just in case you wondered where the erection came from. Not me. Don't put yourself down. I remember sitting next to you on a plane. Yeah? Yes.

And I was flying out to L.A. to audition for some movie that I didn't get. which was fine. Because I remember I was reading the script, and you said to me, you said, oh, what are you reading? And I said, oh, it's some John Travolta comedy called The Experts. Oh, I remember that. That's where he met his wife on that film.

Oh, yes, yes. And it's about two young, hip Americans. who get kidnapped by Russian spies to teach them how to act like young, hip Americans. And you, being a fortune teller, said, oh, that sounds like a piece of shit. And that sounds like something I would have said. Yeah, and you were absolutely correct. I saw the movie. Where were we going?

Oh, to L.A. Now, Michael and I spoke earlier, Gilbert, about you auditioning for one of Michael's shows called television parts, which was an offshoot of elephant parts. But you have no recollection. Michael remembers you, but you have no recollection of auditioning for him. But I didn't get that part. No. Can I say fuck you right now? Had it been my call, you could say that. You actually could say it anyway, but it wasn't my call.

The writers and producers were John Levinstein and Michael. Kaplan and Jack Handy and they they're the ones at 86 you Gilbert oh they're the ones that trashed your career it took you down Jack Handy of deep thoughts fame yeah yeah I've asked him over and over why not Gilbert why not Gilbert they just all go really silent the room gets dark they look at each other guiltily there's a faint light of fire somewhere off in the corner and then the subject passes and no one says a thing and and now I have to up that that piece of trivia that everyone feels like they're telling people that they don't know.

Okay, well, let's guess before you tell me. Okay. Okay. First of all, can I have 20 questions or do I can? Do I have that time? Okay. Is it, does it have anything to do with typewriter correction fluid? Hmm.

Let's see. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Okay. Yeah, I think so. I think so. Next question. Does it have anything to do with, I don't know, like a parent, like a, something? A female?

Could we say female parent? Yeah, yes, yes. I'll guess female parent. Gosh, Gilbert, I don't know. I guess I'm going to have to pass on this. I don't have a clue what it might be. Let's see my mother invented liquid paper, but that wouldn't know. That would not be it.

Now, see, here's something really odd because, I mean, she made a lot of money off that, I'm sure. And she sell it to Gillette, ultimately, yeah. And it's like now, I don't know that people would know what liquid paper is because everything's... Well, it's, you know, we can get serious for like 35 seconds. And it's true. The computer and the printer and everything, you know, the joke is the technician going in and seeing people. people taking liquid paper and wiping stuff off of their TV screen, you know, trying to take it out of the printer and so forth.

But that joke aside, which is a rotten joke, the idea that the computer was going to make that product obsolete was true. But my mother saw that, and she was ready for it. And she knew that once the paper's out of the typewriter, once you're into graphic design and so forth, when you're doing some hard hand layout and stuff, that's when you need a correction fluid, something you can paint on. So she was all ready for that. But she died.

1980, she died. And she was on her way to wherever the next plane of existence is, and so far she has not written. But the idea that she had would have perpetuated itself, but the idea that had made her a millionaire sort of came to a stop in the early 80s, something like that. maybe the 90s. And it still sells a little bit.

You know what I'm saying? I mean, it's not like it's gone, but it's not. At one point, she had 95% of the correction fluid market in America. Wow. Yeah. She basically invented that business. She was a terrific, interesting woman. Loved her so much.

She was a secretary. I mean, that's how she came up with the idea. More or less. She was actually using it. Yeah. She was a part-time secretary. What she really was was an artist and a graphics designer. I see.

And that was where her heart was, and that's who she was as a person as a human being. And in graphics design, during those days, you laid out stuff. You know, you cut it with a razor blade, and you taped it onto a board, and you sent the text to the printer to get back the typeset and so forth. It was a very arduous and long and involved process. And when you laid up the board in order to take it in and have it photographed to make it into something you could print, you had to use something to make the seams and the cuts and everything else to disappear,

and typically that was paint. Well, when the electric typewriter came along, she was working as an office secretary, but she was doing those big, you know, how your hands go up and down and go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang on the typewriter. And then suddenly the electric typewriter comes down, your hands go flat on the keyboards, and you type like we do now, which you do, bl bl bl bl blub, blub, blu, blu, blu, blu, blu. Well, transitioning from that, she made all kinds of mistakes. And the problem was, unlike the Big Bang, Bang, Bang typewriter, she couldn't erase them. You couldn't rub it off of the paper because it was carbon paper ribbon.

So she thought, well, I'm painting it out as a graphics designer. This is graphics design. I just paint it out on the paper. So she came up with it. She worked on the formula. She did the chemical stuff of it. And then she had what was basically the genius idea. she thought, okay, I'm the secretary in the office environment.

And at that time, secretaries were like 97% of that workforce were women. And I controlled the dollar buy. I can go down to the office supply store. I can buy something for a dollar. My boss doesn't say anything about it. I can buy an eraser. I can buy a wax pencil, whatever I need to buy for my work. And I don't have to go through purchasing.

And I don't have to go through anything like that. So if I make a bottle of paint that sells for like a dollar, I can make that paint really inexpensively. I'll come up with the chemical formula that makes it dry fast, sink into the paper and so forth, and I'll sell it, and I'll put it in a fingernail polish bottle, and I'll sell it to the woman and sell it like an office cosmetic. Now we as men don't immediately understand this, but if you look around just for a moment you'll see people who do immediately understand it. And so it's like, yes, she marketed it as a feminine thing that had its femininity about it. That would fit in a desk drawer where somebody kept anything else that they had to use like those things. And where did she decide to advertise it? well, she took the bus to work every day.

So she took signs up on the bus. And as it worked out later in the subway. And it was that appeal to the woman and to the women instincts. And she was a lovely woman herself. I mean, physically lovely, but also a lovely thinker. And she, you know, they just flocked to it. And they supported her. So her first thing she did was go out and hire a bunch of men to run the country.

Well, no, that's, I'm being funny. She didn't actually do that first. Her first employees were women, and she had a real love for that. Her corporate secretary was a woman, and her assistants were all women. But when she was, it was hard to find people who could do jobs like distribution and so forth at that time. It just wasn't a big workforce of women. And so she did end up with a staff of high-powered execs. And with her, she turned it into an international multi-million dollar corporation with plants in Brussels, Toronto, Sydney, and Dallas.

It's very impressive. From a small, simple idea. Just well, and you see how the idea worked. It was just two independent ideas that she connected the dots. You know, she was real inspiration to me, too. And I understand you were in a band once. No, nobody ever asked. That's the first I've actually heard it.

Okay, so is this band, oh no. Would this band have been named after an animal? Let me see, like, say a primate? Or maybe an insect. Not an insect. So that wouldn't have been a really famous English band. Like, would this be a hairy animal? Oh, a hairy animal.

Yeah. So, like, that eliminates hippos. I don't know. What do we have? Okay, so you were in the monkeys. Okay, sure I was. All right, you caught me. See, I guess that one.

And now we were talking about how you actually got that part. How did... You were the only one of the four guys to see the actual ad in variety. Isn't that true? Yeah, that's what Mickey told us. I may have seen it. Yeah, somebody brought it to me. Well, that's a distinction I make.

There was a guy working at the publishing company I was working at as a singer-songwriter and a member of a band there named Barry Friedman. His name was the Reverend Fraser Mohawk in the acid world. And he came in and he said, hey man, you should go down for this. This looks cool. Show up. They're having open auditions. So, yeah, that was the ad that I saw. The one that asked for Ben Frank's types.

Yeah, you know what that means? Yeah, because, well, I lived in L.A. I remember Ben Franks. Everybody listening to this show? Oh, that's that diner. Yeah, it was it, well, it was in those days, it was a hangout for, what did you say, guys with granny glasses? Yeah, guys with granny glasses after 4 a.m. Right.

Right, right, right. The ad is, if I had the ad right, it was insane young men with Ben Franks types, something of that. Yeah, I forgot. Yeah. Now, do you remember what you did for the audition? Well, it's on film, yeah. Oh, you can see it. You can see it on YouTube.

Did you bring your laundry? That's something that I read, that you had a, that can't be true. You know, lore builds up around those things, and it hangs on to them like bugs on a windshield. Can you just tell them you did bring your laundry? It makes it a funnier story. Okay, I brought my laundry. Oh, that's what I heard. Yeah, and in the laundry where it was things that I can't remember.

We should say that you can see the audition. on YouTube. I did. And it's bizarre. You're going through dresser drawers at one point, and you're just kind of, you're riffing. Yeah, yeah. And they, I think they said to you at that point that they liked the hat. Yeah.

Yeah. I was wearing a wool hat that had to do with riding a motorcycle around, keep the hair out of my eyes, no helmet laws at the time. And so they didn't know who the people were that auditioned, and I became wool hat. Mickey and Peter still call me wool hat. Right. Wasn't your screen test used to help sell the show? Well, the show was, I'm actually in the process of writing all this up.

And so it's long story. But the kind of short story of it is the show was conceived by a couple of guys out of New York, Birch, Schneider, and Bob Ravelson. And they hired a team of really great screen. screenwriters, Larry Tucker and Paul Maserski, to write up the pilot for them. And the instruction was make it kind of like hard days night meets the Marx Brothers. And so that was the basis. That was the script that existed when I came in there.

Then Bert and Bob tweaked it a little bit to get music in there, and there was a lot of other kinds of things that were going on. but the bottom line was that when we did the pilot, which we shot down in San Diego, and brought it up, they edited it all together, and they sent it to New York, it was rejected. The network said, nope. And Columbia Screen Jims, which was the mother company,

he said, nope. And it was harsh because Bert Schneider's father owned mostly Columbia. He was very, you know, he was high up. He was in the inner circles, prince of the court. And so they came back, and they said, well, we're dead in the water, no show, no series, go home. Now, whoever you happen to talk to at this point about what happened at this point takes credit for putting the screen tests on the front of the show.

Because they all say, I came up with the idea for putting the screen tests on the front of the show, and that's when the show sold. So it's one of the thousand fathers of victory. and it's a it is not my screen test that made the show cell although that's what happened that was a sequence of events

what happened was this the screenplay instead of it being ironic and funny it became sardonic and angry it was it mocked

and so the four main characters were assholes they were just jerks nobody liked them nobody wanted to be around them or anything they were written into the screenplay so that they were in everybody's face and everybody's hair and it was just a a very unpleasant kind of thing and it never got funny when they put Davies interview and I stopped trying to think if Mickey and Peters was on there I don't think so and they put my screen test on it that changed and they put it right at the very first And said, and those are, meet the monkeys, and you'll never know where they show up next.

And now then it became madcap and kind of easygoing. And so when we were making fun of something or poking fun at it, it was gentle and it was not angry. It was just kids fooling around and having fun. And it was an out-of-work rock band, nice conceit, trying to make a living in a world of a high-power rock-en-roll that was starting to make a giant. name for itself. Another very nice conceit. So the kids were not stars. The kids were not being made by the movie machine. The kids were just kids. And they had this

quality about them that had been introduced in the real documentary footage of what is essentially a screen test. But the way you phrased the question was, did your screen test when you put on the front? Right, right, right. It's a little more convoluted than that. It's more complicated. A more complex. and it's more subtle than that.

I mean, there wasn't, as far as I could tell, going back over, there was no, nobody pulled a trigger. Everybody just got that telephone, made it stop ringing. He's at living. Well, even the origin of the show, I mean, there's, Mickey told us that Rayfelson, who was a roadie, was working on an idea about a band even before Hard Day's Night. And the common knowledge about it is that it was Hard Day's Night that inspired it.

There's so many different versions of where the show came from, where the idea came from. Well, it didn't come from me. Right. I had no idea. I showed up. I was an actor looking for work, a songwriter looking for work, and they said, you got the job, and I said, hallelujah. So that was fine. That's far as I know.

Well, you were already working in LA. You were in Trubador. You were hosting Hootnatties. I was doing a troupe, I was doing a host at the Trub at the Trub. You were a hootmaster. Do I have that correct? You do. And I enjoyed doing that. And I thought I'd been hired to be in a band.

But when I found out that I was hired to play a part of a band member, that was kind of a curveball. But I was on for it. I mean, it sounded like, you know, it would be a good time. And I didn't, I don't have a sense of the genesis of the idea at all. Like I say, at the time when it took off and it became this big hit in the first year, it never became a big hit, but when it got highly visible, I was not sure how that had happened. I didn't see, I couldn't trace anything to a big red button. I didn't see, you know, I didn't know what the magic was, and frankly, still don't.

I mean, it just, it just missed me. There was no noticeable tipping point for you. No, not for me. And by that time, I was just, I was up to my eyeballs in, in, um, Dylanisms and folk songs and so forth and crazy for the Beatles and so forth. Right. Right. I didn't understand that genre of music or whatever they were playing to do. But I don't think they were making, I don't think anybody made it up before Hard Day's Night or at the Beatles or any of that stuff. But I don't know. That's the real answer. I don't know.

And the monkeys actually became friends with the Beatles. Yeah, later on, you know, we all did. I mean, the minute I got any money, I, I, I, I, you know, I got on an airplane and took Phyllis, my wife, and said, let's go to England and see what is going on over there. I went over there basically because it was the capital of the world. I mean, London in the 60s was like Paris in the 20s, and everything was coming out of there. There was new design. There was new art. There was new fashion.

There was new architecture. There was new music. There was new literature. I mean, it was just an amazing place. And so I thought, well, I got to go there. and if, by the way, I get a chance to meet any of the Beatles, good on me. So when I did, when I got over there, I reached out and was able to get over to hang out a little bit with John, and we became friends, friendly.

But it was a remarkable time. I haven't seen anything like it since then. I mean, maybe the Internet in 84 in Silicon Valley now, you know, the Northwest intellectual corridor, that's a whole thing. I mean, people, you say intellectual corridor, northwest, no, wait a minute, that's the wrong coast. No, not anymore, kids. It's Silicon Valley. That's where it is.

Silicon Valley, and distinction to London in the 60s, doesn't have an art culture right now. It's artless. It's a tool kits that they're building up there. London in the 60s, on the other hand, was about love is all you need. It was about, you know, these extraordinary ideas, manifference. in the sculpture and architecture and so forth. And I sort of became friends with the Beatles, but Lenin was, he was politically different than I was. I'm a liberal, just politically to state it, I'm a liberal socially and emotionally and so forth,

meaning that I'm for enough regulations so that nobody starves. Lenin was a radical. He was a revolutionary in his own way. He was a remarkable thinker. And I loved a guy. I mean, he was just a terrific person. And I loved hanging out with him. But he was a, you know, for him love was a politics.

And it was a power. It was a force in the political system. A force in community. A force in government. And that you had. to practice it along those lines. I tended away from that. I tended to think more spiritually about those things. And so we didn't connect on that level. Although we did become friends. I mean, I liked him quite a bit. And I guess he, me, because we always checked in with each

other when he was around. You know, I call up and see you here and he'd say, yeah, come stay. That was one of the great things he taught me was the English habit of saying come over and stay for the weekend. Like, really? Okay. I'll be right there. And he got the joke of what the monkeys were. I mean, Mickey was telling us that he knew it was the recognize it as a Marks Brothers thing.

Well, he may have. I know Mick thinks this, and I think he may have. I don't know. He never said it to me. Uh-huh. Didn't they throw a party for you guys, though, in England? London? The Beatles?

Do I have bad information? No, I think, well, the big party that we hit, When we went over there as a band to play, they were doing a day in the life. And they did have a big party for that. But it wasn't for us. It was for everybody in London. Well, say it was for you. Okay.

And that you brought your laundry to the party. Okay. See, it makes it a much better story. Okay, so hold on a minute. Yeah. They threw a party for me. No, they threw a party. Actually, it was for me personally, and they asked if I would bring my laundry.

And I said, John, I don't know that that's dirty anymore. He said, just bring whatever you got. There's a story online about you bringing a bag of your laundry to the Beatles audition. And that you were, excuse me, to the monkeys audition. And if I'm not. Well, if it's online, it's true. Well, okay. There you go.

Yeah. If I'm not mistaken, you wash your laundry in liquid paper. That part I never read, but I'll give that a try. Whites have never been whiter. Well, you were present for some of the recording of Day in the Life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we were there for the big session.

And I actually stayed with John during a big port of that time. And he was bringing home acetates from the studio and so forth. And that was great to listen to him in his company. My name is Peter Parker, but I'm also Spider-Man. This July, we're faced with a threat. That can be anyone. The world may have forgotten Peter Parker. I'm just a neighbor, friendly neighbor.

But he hasn't forgotten them. Sometimes Spider-Man has to do the hard thing. That's my responsibility. Talk to Banner? I didn't know you could get that big. Spider-Man, brand-new day in theaters July 31st. But, you know, the Beatles, see, here's what people don't understand when I talk to them about London in the 60s. there was a out in the world and specifically in America were the winds of a hurricane and they were force five four six they were mega force winds that were happening from the center of the hurricane which was london so you come out of the hurricane and you move to london and it's dead still it's calm and so what happens is not oh boy this is going to be so great

We're going to be clubbing. We're going to be dancing. We're going to be saying things that are so witty and funny. They will live forever. And it'll be just the best time. None of that happened. It was like, yeah, come, we'll have dinner. We'll tell a couple of jokes.

We'll have a conversation. Maybe we'll talk about, I don't know, politics or where the waiter is from. And we'll have, that's the only thing that we'll do. And that's the way it was. There was a laid back. I have learned to call it easy speed. And I learned it from racing. it's these guys that go monumentally colossally fast,

but they look like they're doing nothing. You know, you've seen great stand-up like that, you've seen great acting like that, you've seen great art like that. It's like, how the fuck are they doing this? And because it looks so natural and so easy. That's what was going on in the center. And the Beatles were a big part of that,

but so were a half a dozen other bands. And it was in an environment where the art world and all of design and all of those things that were coming together, fashion sculpture we just talked about, had the same kind of easy going, yeah, let's try this,

and you try this, and you go, holy smokes, what is that? And what that happened to be was something like a new Beatles album or a new Stones record and so forth. So it was a gestalt, if I can say that without getting shot.

You may. And it was a zeit guy. It was a Zygdye. It's a Yiddish word. Yeah, it's a fact. food. It's a dish. It's a Yiddish dish.

It's a Yiddish holiday. I have to leave early today. It's Gistolt. What are you getting from Gisdalt? I'm getting the watch. They have to tell you, you know, in Gisdalt. They have to tell you what you're kidding. You just ask them, you make him, it's a goodstalt.

You have to tell me. It's a little like Colossil, Gil. Yes. Now, I heard that at one point with the monkeys, I think Davy Jones said it, that he found out that his manager was also like one of the producers of the show. And he thought, that's a good time to get rid of this manager. Well, you know, the four of us never became more than professionally close. Yeah. I mean, I didn't know what was going on in David's affairs, nor he and mine.

And so we just stayed clear of that for the most part. So, yes, that's all true. The manager became a producer, and Davey really said that, and I don't have any idea what I'm talking about. What were the days like, Mike? I mean, you get the part, you pass the audition, your life changes. You guys are shooting 12 hours a day. I mean, it was an insane time, even though you don't kind of remember that moment

where everything exploded. Well, you had had acting in your past. You had acted in high school. So you just saw it as an acting role? More or less, yeah. I mean, it was, I was so naive that I did not know most of the time what was going on. Not naive as ignorant other than just being unaware can be ignorant. So I didn't know how the show was put together.

I didn't know how it was written. I didn't know where it came from. know what the point was. I didn't know how a TV show was produced. None of those things. I had shown up to sing songs and write and maybe do say, well, I, Schneider was very, you know, he was a probative and caring and he helped me along, but he was clear, no, you don't need to do that. That's all departmentalized. You know, we have writers for the show. And so I, well, I'll go to the writer's meeting. Well, I went to the writers meeting one time and wrote, oh, I don't belong here.

You know, these guys are heavy weights. You know, they walk, it's like going out to play golf with somebody, and the first guy up hits a 425-yard drive. You just put the club back in your bag and go back and drink at the clubhouse. You don't play with that guy. And the same thing happened in the, in the writer's room. You know, these guys are going, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, like that. And then the same thing started happening in the music side of it.

oh well Tommy and Bobby are going to do this and there's a curse around of the Brill building these are all pros you know they can these guys can really play and they can really you don't need to do a thing boys and heart yeah boys and heart those guys right and so I was well I go to the sessions I'll see what's going on as you go oh wait these guys really can't play I think I'll know I just sit this one out and you moved it back and and by the time I had taken my taste of all that stuff I got to a point where I was I don't I should not be doing a lot other than just acting and and what they asked me to do. So that's settled into that role.

And who was some of the writers who wrote the monkey songs? I don't, I don't remember any of them. Except for Larry Tucker and Paul Mazzarski. And of course, Paul distinguished himself as a director and the writer in his later career. But, and if I started telling you the people that I do remember, they would be people that never, as far as I know, never went on to do anything. Was Dee Caruso a writer on the monkey show? He was. There's a name.

Yeah. Yeah. Bruttle Lough for Get Smart. Yeah. Funny writer. Yeah. Yeah. Well, see, you know more than I.

Well, I'm just a comedy writer nerd. Yeah. And tell us about the film Head. Yeah. Okay. It's a conversation stopper. Oh, yeah. That'll suck the air out of the movie.

Well, after the, there was a... There was a thing that's set in, my trope for it is celebrity psychosis. And it sets in to everybody who gets a little bit of recognition. I mean, the first thing that Birch Schneider did, one of the first thing that Birch Schneider did, who was the producer of the show, he would have us watch movies, and he sent me over to watch the face in the crowd. And this was a story of, you know, a bumpkin, who was played by Andy Griffith, who comes to Hollywood and turns into a giant star and turns into a screaming, flaming,

monster. And I thought, gosh, I wonder why he's showing me this. I don't know. I have any no way of connecting with this. I don't know what he's talking about. Well, slowly, that was the morph I started to go into. And I started to watch people around me. I thought, gee, I never noticed you had a leg growing out of the middle of your back.

What is that? What does that do? Is that a thing here? I don't know. Oh, you don't have the leg in your back? Yeah, go over see Ashman in wardrobe. Everybody here has got a leg in their back. So you go and you do that.

but it's an appendage that is, you know, doesn't work. And I call it celebrity psychosis because it is kind of a pathology. It's not really a pallet pathology and it's not really a psychosis. But that's what I call it because, you know, it's a thing that makes news anchors think they can park anywhere they want to, you know. This is a fire lane. People will get killed. Don't you know I'm on television? Or make up the news.

Yeah, or make, don't you know I make up the news? I'll make up where I'm parking. So that set in. And slowly the thing morphed, the thing being the television show, but everything morphed. The writers morphed, the songwriters and the producers morphed, the distribution system. The whole thing started to take on this very odd dynamic. And I couldn't put my finger on it then. I can now, and I can talk about it, and I'm writing about it.

But the bottom line was that as this started to happen, There was this weird thing. And, I mean, in the middle of all this, I was just smitten with the production team. And the production team at the time had come together, and it sort of consisted of Bob Ravelson, Bert Schneider, and Jack Nicholson. Now, Nicholson wasn't a hands-on producer, but the minute I laid eyes on Jack, I thought, boy, this is a first-rate guy. And I thought the same thing of Bert and Bob. And this was a team I wanted to play on. I thought, I want to be on this team on it.

But it wasn't a team that wanted me to play on it. Interesting. They didn't want me around. They didn't like me anywhere near as much as I liked them. So they made it pretty clear, pretty quick. Like, yeah, that's cute. Why don't you go do that over there? And I was not in that inner circle, so I couldn't see.

But I did see something hatch. and what hatched was a feeling that Bob wanted to direct and Hopper and Fonda had kind of coalesced into the inner circles and I was friends with Hopper because we could go riding motorcycles and every time we'd go ride in motorcycles he would tell me the story of easy rider and I want to do this moving is about these cowboys and I'd have to accept you motorcycles and over and over and over again he came in with Hopper and they pitched this idea at a bird

and Bob, and Bob, as far as I could tell, really wanted to direct movies. That was his thing. He wanted to do that. So this dynamic, again, morphed, and it began to move them into the sphere of movies, and they started hanging out with movies, and we were a television entity, a television show, and big guns would come through there, big directorial guns. Now, I won't mention any of their names, but they were reaching out. Bob and Bert were reaching out and Jack, come direct a show, come direct a show, come direct show.

They'd come over and they'd say, this is lameo. We don't want to do this. We don't want to direct TV. Are you nuts? And then they would leave. And so Easy Rider became kind of low-hanging fruit. And Bert said, go do Easy Rider. Here's this much money.

And they took off. And Jack kind of was their overseer and helper. and at that point, I think somewhere in there, total speculation, right? This is so we don't get sued. Oh, no one's listening, Mike. Oh, yeah. Well, wait a minute, this cable goes, hold on a second. This cable's not plugged into anything.

You told me this was a microphone. You bastard, I'm leaving. I'm going to come back in there because I'm not going to come back. in there. Not until you plug that microphone in. What a jerk! Okay, I'll come back. Okay, I'm back. I don't want to stop your story, by the way, but

Mickey told us that Jerry Lewis came through. He was one of the guys that came in that was towing with the idea of directing a couple of monkey episodes and he didn't get it, and he split? Mickey would know better than... Oh, okay. No, I don't know.

But the directors that they were bringing through were deciding this wasn't for them. Yeah, they weren't. But here's the point. I think that they needed to shed the monkeys. I think they needed to get rid of the whole thing. So they decided that we will come up with a way to assist the monkey suicide. And we will put together enough that it will basically we can kill this thing.

And we'll just throw it off a bridge. Literally. literally and figuratively and cinematically. So they, they, Jack called up and Bert, I think, and said, we're all going to go up to Ohio. We want to just talk into a microphone, smoke a bunch of dope, take a bunch of acid, tell some jokes and see if we can come up an idea for a monkey's movie because we want to make a monkey's movie.

So I thought, well, that sounds like a good time. We'll go up and do that. When we got up there, it wasn't, there was no focus as a writing meeting or anything like that. It wasn't, and they weren't after a movie, but Nicholson has this remarkable clarity, this insight, his ability. I mean, he's, he is the funniest dope friend you can have. I mean, he's hilarious.

And if Nicholson and I would sit around and smoke a joint, I mean, I would start laughing, then he would start laughing, and we'd laugh until we ran out of breath, choked to death, lay on the floor, and get back up, and do it all over again. And so with that as a driver, Jack and I bonded in a way that was, and I, and he took those tapes that we did. And I started to watch as he put together the script. And Jack put together the script. Now, here's a classic Jack dope moment, I think. So as drug riffs go, all right?

So he gets back and he starts sweeping the pile together of the tapes that he's got. And he's coming up with various things and he's talking and Rayfelson is writing it with him. And they are a writing team. And Rayfelson's kind of taken the lead. Now, Rayful is no fool. Rayfelsen's a very, very artistic and interesting man just like Jack is. and Jack and you're talking about this thing and Jack and Bob actually tells this story and he tells it great I don't know where I think I saw I think he's I think this story's on film somewhere and he says he says we need to figure out how we're going to make this movie how to make a movie out of this stuff and Jack is saying well you just you just let it roll out and just kind of be what it is I mean we will start the whole thing on a bridge in L.A. and the monkeys will jump off the bridge and commit suicide.

And Bob says, uh-huh, uh-huh. And Jack says, it seems, it seems you're not paying attention to me. And Bob says, no, I'm really not. You know, and he's, what are you thinking about? Bob says, I'm just thinking, I'm, I'm thinking dark. I'm thinking something really dark. Jack says, what? What's dark?

What do you mean? He says, I'm thinking of the darkest thing I can think of. and Jack said, and what would that be, Bob? And Bob said, Victor Mature's hair. And Jack said, That's it!

That's the movie! It's Victor Matured's hair! Which, of course, for me, I would have been on the floor and he said that because Victor Matured's hair as a basis for the monkeys movie just as a funny riff.

However you put it down. And that's the movie he wrote. He wrote the movie of Victor Mujer's hair. And so the fact that it comes as a suicide of the monkey is it was a

they did that on purpose. But the basic thing is that it was a drug riff. It was a dope riff. It was a fun. You know, everybody sits around totally smashed and somebody starts, you know, where's John? Where's John? Oh, he's still trying to merge at the roundabout. I mean, it turns into one of those

one funny dope story. after another. And I heard the reason they called it head is so that they could make a sequel and say from the guys who gave you head. Well, I heard that too.

I think that's artifice. I don't think they really did it for that reason. Well, just agree with me. And they had their laundry with them. Hey, Gilbert. Plug the microphone back in. I'll agree with you. What good does

it do for me to agree with you if the microphone goes to nothing. You said when I came back in here, you would plug it back in, and it's not plugged. I can see that. I'm not an idiot. I spend a lot of time at Radio Shack. This is not plugged in.

It's also an anti-war film. I mean, it's a strange duck. It's a really important movie, and it's an anti-war film, yes. Well, it was an important movie. Now, plug in. There's a fascinating video of you online, by the way, at a monkey's convention, I was saying this with this young woman who wrote a thesis about head.

Oh, God. Yeah, which is absolutely fascinating. Yeah. And you do a DVD, did you do a DVD commentary for the movie? Yeah. Yeah. Can't wait to hear that. Well, it's fluff.

Oh, okay. I just, you just try to not scare the people with the DVD player at home, you know. I was, I was wondering if they were trying to do, like Richard Lester made that film with Lennon, how I won the war. If they were trying to, because this is an anti-war message. in the film what they were chasing? Or, as you say, they were just trying to kill the... No, the message is, you know,

the monkeys are a nuisance, put them on the back of a trailer, and let Victor Mature drive it off the lot. Wow. And this wasn't a hit. No, no, as bizarre as that may be. As bizarre as that may seem. It's got blockbuster written all over it.

Yeah, well, the series... That's what I thought. It should also be pointed out that that monkey money was used to make easy writer and five easy pieces. Well, the money that the Bert and Bob made off the monkey, that's correct. It's fascinating. And the series was canceled a couple of months before the movie. So you could certainly make the argument that the mania was already dying,

that the writing was already on the wall. Well, listen, it had gone from mania to, you know, running for your life. I was dodging every bullet I could out there. It was active kill these guys. We had turned into, you know, pariah. And for some reason, and not weird to understand, we were the target of you guys sold out rock and roll. You sold out everything.

It's you. You did it. It's your fault. You. Come over here. Let me punch you in the nose. And the whole arts community, turned against the show, turned against us as actors, turned against us as artists and performers,

and said, no, they can't come in here. They don't get to go on. And all the records stopped being played on FM radio, and there was a wholesale walkaway. It's so strange. Well, it isn't strange when you think about it. You just have to go back and reconstruct in your mind. I mean, we're 60 years away from it now, but reconstructing your mind the Vietnam War, reconstruct in your mind the Beatles,

reconstructing your mind the assassination of Kennedy, reconstructing your mind the 60s, and you'll see that there was a whole motion to capture the art of the times into something authentic. And there was a feeling that the way the monkeys was put together was not authentic. Now, it turns out, and history will prove,

that that's incorrect. It was quite authentic. It was the way you did it. That's the way they did cast a blanket. Sure. You sold 35 million records in 1967. It wasn't a fluke. Yeah, it was a fluke.

And here is, this is a great podcast. Plug this thing in because I have something I want to say. I have something I want to say. Well, this is a dress rehearsal. Yeah. We'll do the podcast. Yeah, but here's for the dress rehearsal, and you guys can take it out if you want to.

You better not. Because, because I'm going, this is going in the book, but I'll give it to you. you know, months before the book comes out, if the book ever comes out. So, 35 million records is complete fabrication. Really? It's totally bogus. It is a Class A mendacity.

It's a lie. It's not true. We never sold 35 million records. And the reason I know this as such an absolute fact is because I made it up. and I told it to a guy in Australia as the truth and it's complete fiction. What about this idea that you outsold the Beatles and the Stones combined in 67? Absolutely falsely.

Really? Absolute falsehood. And what happened was this? I thought, how do we get our arms around this authenticity thing here? What are we doing genuine, genuine, genuine, shmenuan? I mean, I don't know where this goes. I can't, as an artist, this is a really important thing for me.

I got it. So I'm done with the monkeys. I'm in Australia doing rock and country rock and the stuff that I want to do. And I'm watching the news and I'm thinking there's something wrong with the news. There's something wrong with people in the news. These are not, I'm not getting the truth here. This is weird. And I have an interview. I'm on the roof of a hotel.

One of those pools on the roof of a hotel with this stringer from the local newspaper, which is just local in like Sydney or Melbourne. and it's a big, big gun. And he comes and he says, well, and he's obviously got the press report, and he's, I've got the press release. What he wants to do is he wants to write the press release and go home. Let me just put the press release in the paper. This is fine with us.

I just need the 1,200 words. And it's so really nice to meet you. Take a couple of pictures. I'm out of here. I said, hang on a minute. And I said, I want to talk to you a little bit about press, and I want to talk to you a little about journalism. I want to talk to you a little bit of where you get your facts from?

And how are you coming up with stuff? if you're just printing press releases and stuff, this guy starts to squirm a little bit. And I said, because I tell you what's going to happen in this interview here, I'm going to lie to you. I'm going to tell you lies. And he said, well, why are you going to do that?

And I said, well, I'm just going to be interested to see what happens. Because I don't know what's going to how these things come about. And from what I understand, you're an important writer and opinion maker. I want to know. and he said, well, I'm very uncomfortable with this. I said, well, I suspect you would be. And he said, well, if you're lying to me, how will I know, how will I know if you start telling me the truth?

I said, you won't. That's how a lie works. You don't know whether somebody's lying to you. And he said, well, should we do the interview? I said, yes, very definitely, let's do the interview. Plug my microphone in. That's something a lot of people do to me. following you around

I said I said like I said like my microphone in I want to tell you said well is it true that you read an ad for the paper

I said yeah he said okay and he gets more and more nervous because I'm just answering just complete blank flat no I have no tell

because I don't play poker and he and he so you guys have you've been very successful recording haven't you and I said yes we really have

been very successful and did you your last record was gold I said oh yeah it was more than gold I said they can't even really keep count because all we the high that it goes is gold

he's well gold is that's like 500,000 I mean saying I said well but you see you don't what you don't understand is there's a worldwide count the last two records that we sold sold 35 million records. And he said, really? I said, yeah, I said, you may not understand it,

but that's more than the Beatles and the Stones combined. And he said, that's him writing. Writing it down. Really? And I said, yeah. More than the Beatles. And I said, of course, nobody knows it because people are stealing from us all the time and everything. But it's huge. It's so much bigger than anybody knows.

So, next day, the thing goes in the paper. I read the paper. he says, and they've sold 35 million records. They said, what? Yikes, look at this. He printed it. The guy printed it. I can't believe this. He printed it. But I don't say a word. So this is years. Years past. And now suddenly, and I'm having 35 million records.

Hold on. Where was that? That's in the New York Times. Get out of here. That's in the New York Times. This has become a meme before there are no memes. We're still in print. We hadn't. And then the next thing, you know, it's on the air. And if you Google it today, if you Google it today, Google the sacred sanctified search engine, guess what you'll read? We sold 35 million records more than the Beatles and the Stones combined. It's also. I made it up.

That's hilarious. And my mic was plugged in. My mic was plugged in. You have not stopped me, Godfrey. You have not stopped me. Try it, try it. I'll see you next to Gishtal. I'm giving you a watch that doesn't work.

Listen to me. Listen to me. So basically everything in this interview has been complete and utter bullshit. I'm not telling you. Figure that out for yourself. Now, can I ask you the most important question to me? Do you remember working with Lon Cheney Jr.? Well, I remember him, yeah.

Yeah. Tell us about Lanchini Jr. Tell me. Frank doesn't care. Oh, but I do. I grew up on all its movies. I love it. Well, I knew him when he was in his later days.

I don't, you know, I have nothing to report there. I can make some stuff up, as you know. Please. It's all the reporter in Australia. Why stop now? Well, first of all, he was extraordinary. The man was over seven feet tall. People don't know that.

He was maybe 7-1, 7-2. I mean, it was Kareem. You know, I mean, the guy was giant. And a spectacular ballet dancer, I've heard. I had no idea. I didn't know that. But I did wonder about the shoes. That was weird.

I thought maybe it was an affectation because they were giant, you know, like 13s, maybe 14 dance. Ballet. So you worked with him and you don't remember a fucking thing. That's what you're telling me. Well, we had a lot of people come through, you know, we were all in our own world. Talk about celebrity psychosis. It's a real. It's a real.

Everybody came through, Stan Freeberg and Liberace and Hans Conrad. Oh, I got stories about all of them. Well, you did. None of them are true. Oh, some of them are. You just don't know which ones. I've given up already. I don't care.

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You keep trying to hide it, Gilbert, but you're not going to do it. I can see. I can see whether it's in or not. I have a six cents. The mic is on. These are plugged into a cardboard box under the table, basically. They're chocolate. They're not even real. By the way, that 35 million records, it's also, it's well beyond the New York Times. It was in the VH1 behind the music monkeys' documentaries.

Oh, really? It's everywhere. Cal Surprise. And you made it up. Absolutely out of whole cloth. Incredible. Isn't it fun? It's a great piece of news.

Which is probably bullshit, too, as everything has been. Some is real, some is not. And of course, you don't have to answer honestly. I'll say. When the monkeys, even after they had split up, when they'd get together for reunions, they would get together for like about five minutes. they feel good about each other and then they'd be a major fight starting

that's kind of true oh boy you hit one you hit a vein wow I think we should stop quit while you're ahead it was it you know it was collegial enough it was not particularly convivial it was uh you know it was

it was work for hire I like Mickey, I like Peter, I liked them, you know, there was no animosity that I felt. I think David felt a lot of animosity for me because I was such a liar. No, that's a joke, that's a joke, that's not true. But so, so you're, you were like, you were like basically in business together, the way you'll. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it was, it wasn't so much business.

we were just in a project together. You know, it's like being on a ball team and so forth. Yeah, that's right. It was empty for me in a way because I didn't get to play or sing. I didn't get to do the stuff that I wanted to do. I couldn't write. You know, I went to Bob and Bert and said, I have all these songs. And they said, oh, what's like?

What songs? And I would play different drum and say, oh, no, no, no, no. That's not a good song. That's a bad song. And it's going to not be a, it's not a pop song. I said, well, I know it's not a pop song, but I don't know how to write pop songs. And I said, well, then there's your problem, is it. So I didn't.

It was empty for me in that particular way, where it was fulfilling, and this is true, for sure, so plug the mic in. The, is that, is that it is true that there was something about the fans that loved it, the people that really enjoyed it, that was very compelling to me. is still very compelling to me. It's one of the reasons I'm, you know, go to these chiller conventions and stuff. There's a reality to that. Talk about authentic. You know, you look in some of these people's eyes and they say to you, you can't imagine what the monkeys have meant to me.

It's a real thing. It's a real moment. And I get a chill when they do that. I reel a real jolt. It triggers a compassionate thing in me that I am so grateful for. And that kind of kept me going through those times. When I went out and did the shows with Mickey and, Peter after David died, you know, kind of a memorial tour, it was because of that. It was because of the

crowds and it was because of the not just not just the applause, but you know, it really meant something to them. So that redeemed it for me. I wasn't fulfilled as an artist with it, but they were fulfilled as fans and its television watches. I knew as an artist that what they were seeing was an artifice and was fabrication, but that was okay. They understood that social contract, I think. I don't think they ever felt ripped off like the people who were against it. I think they felt like this is a treasure. Now, when somebody who is nine years old says to you, this is a treasure, you tend to not discount it,

but that's where the treasures are buried in those nine-year-old minds. And they see them as they grow up into the 89-year-olds, and you look at them, you know, coming in and they're walkers, and it's not funny anymore. It's not, you don't ridicule them. It's sweet. So that was happening during that time. And that was what kept me going with it, and still does.

I mean, still, it makes me honor the event, honor the thing, and I honor it for real. And that's the truth. Yeah. Well, it is odd when you do anything in this business, you kind of like forget, like people are actually listening. and paying attention. And then when they tell you, yes, I was listening and I did, you know, either laugh or or sang along or anything, you know, it's like, it's surprising. That's still a revelation to you after all these years that people come, because here we are

at the ChillerCon and you've just spent the weekend meeting fans. Yeah. And it's still, yeah, because I, when I'm at something like this or people come up to me on the street and it's like they say oh i you know still to this day like anything with problem child is like that totally panned and people everybody comes up to me and says oh my god when i was a kid i saw that a hundred times and i loved it and and they'll name stuff that i've totally forgotten about that they say meant something to them yeah yeah yeah well that's what that is it that's it that's it And it's more important than probably any of us know.

I mean, even the way you've said it and I've said it and so forth, there's probably such a deep current that runs there through all of us. I don't want to get all philosophical, but it is – I have kids, you know, I raise kids, and anybody who has kids and watches them like my kids did, they listen to West Side Story 55,000 times. That's greater than the Beatles and the Stones combined. They listened to... 55,000 times.

Okay, well, it wasn't 55,000. But it was a lot, and they loved it. And that's the point. See, this is why we're not recording. Mike, before we wind down, let's talk a little bit about your other career. I gave up on the interview. You gave up? You got to the beginning.

We'll talk about yourself for a problem, John. Yeah. So I remember John Ritter coming into my dressing room. Hey, can I say something just to show off? It's your show. Yes, I'm going to show off now. Facing the crowd was directed by Ilya Kazin. That's right.

And it also starred Lee Ramek, Walter Mathau, and Tony Franciosa. That's right. Okay, who played the press agent that said, I've always hated you? Don't you know that? Oh, gosh. Peter Laherty. That's right. That's absolutely right.

And if you don't believe that, then it was Carloff. Because I remember Tony Franciosa. I remember him in that. Yeah, saying to, he makes a pass at or sleeping with Andy Griffith's girlfriend. And he gets mad at him. and he says, you know, that they're stuck together. And Tony Franciosa says to Andy Griffith, you're in bed with me, lonesome in bed.

Loadsome roads. Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. We have Mike Nesmith here, I think. I was going to ask Mike about his, you know, inventing music videos. Listen, neither Gilbert nor I are going to let you get back on the United. You can try. I'm just going to sit back and be entertained.

But it ain't going to happen. We're not going there. We have other fish to fry now. I heard with the first video you made, it made $27 trillion. It's that. And a war, a world war, was started over. It's as true as anything you'll ever hear. You introduced George Harrison to the Maharishi, didn't you?

That could have happened. Tell us about the troubadour, at least in those days. I mean, it was where Lenny Bruce was busted for using the word schmuck. Oh, it was? Oh, yeah, there was a lot of stuff. You didn't know that either. I'm making this shit up now, Mike. I checked that up.

Oh, it was fine. I mean, it was at the end of the folk era because the folk era had, you know, been shot in the head by the Beatles. and it was the whole rock and roll electric started that thing, you know, just started that thing. And the troubadour was a casualty. But to its good, to its own good offices, it changed with the times. And there were some great players in there where I met a lot of really cool rock and roll guys. And that's where I first saw Linda play and first saw McGuin play. Roger came in

He was Jim McGuin Then Roger McGuin of the Birds Yeah That's right For anybody under 50 Right The

The He came in one night He was He was doing session stuff And he was really a great guitarist We always loved him He would just sometimes He'd just play and he would go up there

And he'd play Beatles songs And stuff And he'd get booed Because the crowd was against it And he became really enamored with spiritual religions and Eastern religions and so forth

and I said well Jim where are you and is that a progression he said well I'm going to get my spiritual name me and my wife are going to

my spiritual name and I can't remember what his wife's name was it was a beautiful name you know and I said wow well what kind of names do you get

he said I don't know you apply I've applied to my guru and I'm going to get my name I said well that's That's fascinating. So the next money comes in, and I said, it's not in my business, but did you get your name? He says, yeah, we did. I said, wow.

Well, what are they? He's at Roger and Henrietta. I said, really? Jim, you're changing your name to Roger? He said, I've changed my name to Roger. What? He's telling me in the interview. Oh, in the interview.

Got to button it up. Got to put it. Yeah. Over to you, Gilbert. Close us out. Get us out of here. Okay. Hey, one thing, you smile during the intro. Geez, there was the mic.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's not a real mic. You smile during the intro when Randy MC's cover of Mary Mary was mentioned. How did you feel about that? I loved it. I mean, how would you feel about that? You know, that's a supreme compliment. I mean, you know, stay undercover, but anyway, take us home.

Now, you used to belong to the Manson family. That's an absolute lie. As was everything on this show. And next week we'll have a guest who is telling the truth, and we will be recording. This was a lot of fun. Thanks for having. We barely scratched the surface, Mike, but we got to a lot of stuff.

We did, yeah. And we've had a guest today. Mr. Mike Nesmith, who has told us absolute bullshit. I think some of it was true. You just don't know which works. So basically, this interview was like, well, some of it might be true. That's it. Some of it's real.

Some of it's not, just like life. Yeah. So we've been talking to Michael Nesmith, who I think what may have been in the monkeys and his mother invented Coca-Cola, wasn't it? Okay. So this is, I'm Gilbert. Are you sure about that?

I came up. Not anymore. I don't fucking care anymore. This is the strangest interview we've ever done. And we've done some wild ones. Next week we'll actually have a. guest. Now, I'm Gilbert Gottfried,

and I think this has been Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast. I think my co-host, Frank Santo Padre, and I know my guest today is Mr. Michael Nesmith, who

is at least 99% full of shit. But entertaining. Thank you. Thanks, Mike. Thanks for doing it. My pleasure. Fun. Thank you.

Where do I plug this thing in? Never forget another password on your computer or iPhone with Dashlane. And it's free. That's right, free. Get it now at D-A-S-H-L-A-N-E.com slash Gilbert. If you like listening to comedy, try watching it on the internet. The folks behind the sideshow network have launched a new YouTube channel called Wait For It. It's got interviews with comedians like Reggie Watts, Todd Glass, Liza Slechinger,

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