Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - GGACP Rewind: Episode #58: Tracey Jackson and Paul Williams

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

Screenwriter Tracey Jackson and legendary songwriter, musician and actor Paul Williams join Gilbert and Frank at New York’s famed Friars Club to cover a wide array of topics, including the “musicality” of comedy, the addiction of fame, and the movies that changed Paul and Tracey’s lives. Also, Paul auditions for The Monkees, Tracey hangs with Hunter S. Thompson and Gilbert “favors” Paul by performing some of his greatest hits. PLUS: The comedy of John Byner! The Jewish Elvis! Robert Mitchum’s bed! Tracey bootlegs a Paul Williams concert! And the return of Pat McCormick! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Ah, never mind. This is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santo Padre, and we're here at the Friars Club in New York City. Our guests today are a screenwriter, television writer, and playwright, who's written 12 TV pilots,

as well as the screenplays for the most, movies, The Guru and Convessions of a Shopaholic, and our other guest, a songwriter, singer, actor, and member of the Songwriters' Hall of Fame who's written some of the most popular and enduring songs of our lifetimes, including we've only just begun rainy days and Mondays and the Rainbow Connection, among many others. He's also an

actor. He's appeared in everything from Smoky and the Bandit to Phantom of the Paradise to Batman the animated series. So please welcome Tracy Jackson and Paul Williams.

Thank you. Thank you. It's so much fun to be here. I want to I want to hear you sing those songs. Okay. Sherry, not Risen. Gilbert sings

Paul Williams songbook. I think that would be a hit album. You know, he sings on almost every episode. Yes. And as a matter of fact, he sang a little bit of a Paul Williams song on one episode. And he sang. Gilbert, you want to tell Paul? Nice to be around.

Oh, my God, you know that one. Yes. Okay. Paul's going to want money because of ASCAP. You better. Probably shouldn't have sold me. I keep it. That stuff really quiet.

Right, right, right. Yeah. Okay, then I'll keep my mouth shut. He's going to pick his hand up. Sing away show. Go ahead. Give him a little bit of it. Okay.

I always sing Paul Williams songs as Paul Williams. So, yes. Hello, with affection from a sentimental fool to a little girl who's broken every rule. One that brings me up when all the others seem to let me down One who's nice to be around Should I say that it's a blue world without you Whisper words I remember from all love songs

But all wrong cause I never called it love before. This feelings knew it came with you and I know that the nicest things never seem to last that we're both a bit embarrassed by our past but I think there's something special in the feelings that we found

And you're nice to be around. You guys have to go on the road. Wonderful. What's amazing, does you sound exactly like John Beiner doing me? John Beiner does you? That's great. Maybe that's how you sound, Polly. It's the way I used to sound because I couldn't breathe.

My nose was full of cocaine. I couldn't be, should I say it's a blue? Then I got sober. All of a sudden, I was, should I say that it's a, wow, where'd this voice come from? Because you didn't have your nose in a mirror all those years. You wouldn't have found it like that, you know. You see, I think I liked your singing better on cocaine. But you wouldn't have liked the rest of me any better.

Yeah, I wouldn't have liked the rest of me. She knew he then. And I feel so bad that I didn't include the first part of the song. It was, hello, what a silly way to start a little. Such a simple way to start a love affair. What a simple way to start a love affair? Should I jump right in and say how much I care? Or should I see I'm driving and say I'm going to say I'm doing and say I'm saying, much I care.

And what sounds a voice like I should be saying things like, Gilbert, are you my daddy? Gilbert, are you my daddy? Would you take me for a madman? Or a simple heartic? Tracy jump in here and save me. Oh, Tracy. I can't sing. Did you write that and a couple of other songs with John Williams?

I wrote that with John Williams. That was for a movie called Cinderella Liberty. James Conn. Eli Wallach. I mean, if you're going to write songs for a movie, what an amazing way to begin is to have somebody like John Williams pull you into the process. So it was John Williams and the director, Mark Rydell.

Mark Rydell gave you the job. It was fabulous. For anyone out there who wouldn't know John Williams, which is shocking. Yeah. Turn off the show, immediately. He wrote, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bon. He wrote Jaws. Star Wars.

Star Wars. Shindler's List. Every, every Spielberg film, including a million others. I wonder if he's divorced and has to give way a lot of his royalties. And the two of you are going around, I hear. It's going around, I hear. Yes. But, yeah, it was a great way to start my career.

And it was the first stuff I ever wrote for a feature film. We wrote five songs for that. But, yeah, brilliant man. Brilliant man. And, okay, if we could start with... Now, your father was... How tall was your father? Six foot two.

But do we want to talk about my journey like that? Or do we want to talk about gratitude and trust? No, we have to talk about you all... I had two brothers. They're both six-footers. And it made, you know, I have a mild resentment. But here's the story. The interesting thing is they gave me shots to make me grow when I was like nine because I was kind of falling behind. If they hadn't done that, I probably would have bound one of the same height as my brothers and all. But they gave me shots. A doctor said, let's try something. Let's give him male hormone, which did not make me any taller, but it gave me a huge hard on. And what was interesting, all of it, you know, so it's the headwaters of why I write codependent love.

songs is because at nine years old, I was humping my Aunt Laverne's leg. I mean, it was just, you know, they went, okay, stop the hormone shots, immediately stop the hormone shots, you know. So, so, you know, yeah, I was more interested in my toy chest, no,

but Aunt Laverne's chest, yeah, you know, so, but anyway, I kind of screwed things up, so my body clock got all messed up. I didn't hit puberty until I was out of high school. And I, you know, I took a spurt. I was 4-6 when I graduated, and then I, I spurted up to 5-2, you know.

And it slowed everything down. But now when I'm about to turn 75, I'm thrilled to have things, you know. I mean, now I have three kids that are in their 30s, and their dad is feeling about the same age as them, you know, and about as mature. You look great for 75, Paul, if I could blow a little smoke up your skirt. Thank you. Now, tell us how you met Tracy. There's a story.

Blowing smoke up my skirt? Yeah, sure. Yeah, you're sure. Can we turn the cameras on? Of course. Yeah. Paul's not going to blow us, and I'm wearing pants, so we'll try and do that. And your origin, the story of how you met involves an iconic actor.

It does. Paul's hero. Well, I was a Paul Williams fan when I was a kid. I'm beginning to think that all kids who had come from fucked up families watched Mike Douglas every day. I think that he was like the babysitter for all disenfranchised children. But I was crazy about Paul. I loved his music. And he moved to Santa Barbara, where I grew up.

And I was friendly with Robert Mitchum. And there were like three celebrities in Santa Barbara. There was Robert Mitchum. There was Steve Martin who lived on the hill and never came down. And there was Jonathan Winters. And when Jonathan Winters moved to Santa Barbara, he was really bored. So he would go up every day to the Upper Village and he would do his act. Just for strangers in the street?

No, just like for anyone. Like he'd stand in front of the market or the storehouse and he would do his act. And when he first got there, everybody was like really happy. because like Santa Barbara was a boring city, right? So all of a sudden there's Jonathan Winters, and you go to the market, and he's like, you know, he's doing his whole thing, and you're kind of cool, and he'd get this big crowd.

Well, this went on for years, and you got to the point where you go, shit, I've got 40 minutes, and you'd park around the back, because there'd be Jonathan, you know, season three of the... So when Paul came to town, I was very excited,

I'd get to meet him right away, and then Mitchum had a New Year's Day party, and Dorothy Mitchum, known as the sheriff, to try and keep Bob out of trouble, which was not successful. said but Paul Williams was going to be there. So I got all dressed up.

And sure enough, there he was. And like a little Andy Give jacket, sort of. And I went up to him and I said, Mr. Williams, I love you so much. I've loved your music my whole life. You're just like everything. It's just a total sycophant. I'm 22 years old.

I mean, come on. And he looks at me and goes, well, as long as it got you laid. And he turns out his heels and he walks away. Classic first impression. So then I decided that I like Neil Diamond, better. And then we got one, we got a photo-op on Bob's bed, which is Paul's favorite thing about

our relationship, is we got a photo up on Bob's badge. I love saying that we met in Robert Mitchman's bed. That's my story. He loves that. Well, you love people to think you spent a lot of time in Robert Mitchum's bedroom. Exactly, exactly. But I wasn't, you know, it's like we had, we didn't have our noses in each other's laps. We had our noses on little mirrors.

You and Bob or you and me? No. Well, neither one of us, you know. But, yeah, but Mitcham, well, Mitcham spoke to a lot of dope. And Mitchon was like, a doughboy. He called me a doughboy. His nickname was the goose because he walked like a goose. He had the shoulder thing.

And he called me the doughboy for the Pillsbury Doboy. And he'd be like, hey, doboy. Doe boy, tried this shit. It's no good, but you might like it. And then he'd give you something scraped off to King Tut that was just going to put you, you know, put you back in grade school mentality and leave you there for a week, you know. And that's probably where I was when Tracy walked in there because I was not that nasty a guy. But that, I mean, what came out of my mouth was just, that day I was just,

That day I was just arrogant, little sexist, little prick, you know. So she wandered out of this. She said, spun on her heels, a Neil Diamond fan, left the room and all. But then we met in 2001, I think, when I was at Fine Signs, and she and her husband Glenn came to see my show, and I was different. I was at that time 11 years sober, and when we hit it off and we became best friends. You thought I got a second shot at this, not screwing this friendship. Before that, I had a deal at Sony and I wanted to do a TV.

I'd always liked him, no matter what, Even after he said that, and I was writing TV shows at Sony, and I went in one day, and I said, who do you want to do? What do you want to do? What do you want to do? It's like the good old days, right? And I said, I'd like to do a show for Paul Williams. And like all the suits looked at me. Well, if you backed the cocaine truck up into the stage door, maybe. And that was it. And they nixed it, and he couldn't get a job. I mean, that was the time you couldn't get a job. But I also didn't know because it was in the 80s, as I imagined. And in the 80s, in the 90s, in the 90s, I wasn't even trying. I was learning to be me. I was nearly sober.

You were telling me before about how you used to send people into your meetings. My manager, Denny Bond, would go to me. I'd send him to creative meetings for me because I couldn't leave the house. I would say that I had a dental emergency, and so he would go and have a creative meeting on my BF. How rude is that? I mean, somebody is nice enough to offer you a job, and you send your manager because you're too stoned to go. That was me in the 80s, you know? And you said you kind of felt like you were sending people out like you or Frank Sinatra,

Who I thought I was. And, you know, and then I got sober, and I went, do you know who I used to think I was? Not even to me. It's like, do you know who I used to think I was? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I carried a gun until I got sober. And, you know, always I had to permit and everything. And I got sober.

I looked down and I said, oh, my God, that's embarrassing. What is this thing on my hip? This growth with S&W on the side. Oh, it's Smith and Weston. Get rid of that. Yeah, that's not who I am. That's who I was with the arrogance and the, you know, and the paranoia. that cocaine brings.

Yeah, to be drunk and stoned and carry a gun. Yeah, exactly. It might not be the smartest thing. You know, writing children's movies. And now, Tracy mentioned the Mike Douglas show, which... Oh, yeah. Now, it was filmed in Philadelphia. Yeah.

And you said that actor Peter Laughford called you. Oh, this is in the documentary. Yeah. It's great. Yeah, Peter Laughford said, look, he said, I just did the show, the Mike Douglas show me. So they're not going to want me back and all, but every host, your guest host, every guest host can ask each date

for one guest. Ask for me. Ask for me because there is some blow and my family knows if I go back to Philadelphia, just to go back to Philadelphia, they'll know exactly why I'm going there. But if you ask me, so if you look at the episode of, and it's in the

documentary, if you look at the episode of the little clip from Mike Douglas with Peter Lawford and I, we're so ripped It's like, first of all, we look like a couple of parrots. We can't stop moving. And I'm just laughing at everything. Wait a minute.

Wait a minute. You sounded like Gilbert. Drug test Gilbert. Quickly. There's actually a clip in the documentary of the two of you. We're clearly just ripped, you know. And we're talking about the documentary, so we should plug it. Paul Williams still alive.

Paul Williams still alive. Which both killed. With Gilbert today. Yes. Well, that doesn't prove anything. Yeah. We all loved it. it, Darry, too.

And you said also from your father, you got, you really adopted your drinking problem. Well, I think, you know, I think there's a genetic propensity to, you know, to be a lush in the Williams family. I had two brothers that were, you know, they were drunks. My dad was a drunk. I was drunk. I was drunk. My younger brother is, so my younger brother is, I think 13 years sober. My older brother was sober when he passed away from a heart attack and all.

He couldn't quit smoking. But, yeah, Williams is our, Williams is as a half-have-veginian. When I was five years old, four, five, six years old at a family picnic, they'd give us a little glass of beer and all. And I would want to sing. Like Frank Sinatra. Exactly, you know, and for a while when I was nine, I could, you know. And your father used to pick you up in the car when you were a little kid and he'd be like sloshed at the wheel? I remember spinning out in the middle of a field, you know, somebody coming to.

over and just yelling at him in the window, so you're going to kill those kids there yourself someday, Paul. You're going to kill the, and I want to do the exact same thing with my kids. When I left my wife and kids, they had a home up in Montecito. I had a home in L.A. I'd drive up and get my kids, and I was driving back and forth just as loaded as my dad was. You know, did the same thing.

What I got, though, was I finally got a place in my life where I hit my knees, said I need some help, and there were people there to help me, and they gave me my life back, you know. And your father would tell us what happened to him, eventual. He was killed in a one car accident. He drove into the bumpment of a bridge when I was 13. He was drunk and he lived a week. You know, it was a sweet, sweet man. I would love it. If he had gotten sober,

if he had found the avenue of recovery that I took, which incidentally I don't talk about on the air, in specifics, I don't mention that organization, but that organization that saved my life would have been, he would have loved. He would have loved the hearts in there. He would have loved the kindness, the spiritual awakening that was waiting for for anybody that's life is on the brink right now.

End of commercial. Now, it's also back to gratitude and trust. It's interesting that you and Tracy would get together and write a book about recovery because unlike you she was not a drug user. She was a good girl, if I may say. In some ways.

Tell us the bad way to it. I was a slut, but what I used to say I was, I did. I did. I was a slut from a very early age. Why didn't I meet you back then? That's what Paul always says. But what I didn't do?

I used to say this. I used to say I'm fucking everybody, but I'm not taking drugs. That was my thing. You know what? Like you pick your poison. I was terrified of drugs. I was terrified of drugs. I believed Reefor Madness.

Like when they show it in school, I was the kid that went, I get it. It's a gateway drug. If you save one person, the root from the left. And that's what I say you. If you save one person, I was that person. I was offered drugs by Hunter Thompson. I've been offered drugs by everybody. I had an agent who kept trying to have sex with me when I was in Hollywood,

and he would bring me quailudes when they used to, remember the old quailud days, and I would just take them, I'd put him a little bottle in my medicine chest. And I had like 50 of them. And one day someone came in my apartment, and they went in my medicine chest, and they go, whoa, you got 50 ludes in here. And I went, oh, yeah, I guess so. Can I have them? But you know, everyone used to check everyone's.

Never touched a thing. I mean, nothing. And so it's a really, it was a really interesting thing that we, you know, we're the yin and the yin and I can have a glass of wine. And I do at night. It'll have a glass of wine, or I'll leave half of it. I mean, you've seen me leave. Yeah, which makes me crazy.

More half of glasses of wine. Doesn't it bug you also that Hunter Thompson? It kills him. Oh, yeah, that she didn't take it. Right. The story is the story. It would have driven, yeah. But Gilbert, you would have loved.

Did you ever know Hunter Thompson? No. You would have, this is a story I have to tell you, because you would have loved this. My husband sells rare books and manuscripts, and we went out to see Hunter Thompson. before he died, actually. And it was, I wanted to see the Oscars. It was Oscar night.

All I said was, I don't care as long as I get to see the Oscars. So we got to this house in the middle of like, God fuck nowhere in the snow. And it hasn't had the windows opened. What's the name of the town again? Woody Creek. The windows had not. I like the other type of place. God fuck nowhere.

And it's like. I think I played a comedy call on there. The windows had not been open since 1961. And he'd been smoking hash in there all day every day. You walk in and he, and I just want to watch the Oscars, okay? and he's got this setup where he's got a TV and he has all of his drugs which he kept offering me which I wouldn't take

and he has his phone and every time the phone rings like if you called him it would play you say this is I can't do your voice but it would play you know Gilbert you know Hunter it's Gilbert I want to talk to you let's have luncheon and and he had a TV where if you change the channel it went to whatever you're watching to porn and then back to a movie that was starring him

so for the entire Oscars I swear to God so it'd be like and now best screenwriters are and then you'd go to like, switch the channel to be like two girls fucking in Hata, right? And then he would switch it back

and be like he and Benicio del Toro doing blow and then it would switch it back to like and then Billy Crystal singing a song and then it would go to like five guys doing each other and this went on all night long

with all this hash I swear to I went running out of there in the snow at like three in the morning wanting to kill myself. I'm so horny right now. I need to be alone for a little while give me a second. You want to let's sit your TV

so every other channel as porn, it can't be done. Now, here's something I always wondered. I mean, it's nothing just me. The idea of, you know, suffering and being drunk and stone and creativity. Yeah. Interesting. I'm kind of, I always like, I always like, I think a lot of people avoid psychiatry because they don't want to ruin what's making them so creative. I think it's an interesting question. I get that, you know, at the headwaters of most of our creativity, our creative lives, whatever, you find a lot of broken people. I mean, I don't think that you, what's your line about it if you got a date for the... Oh, well, that's in Hollywood.

Show me a comedy writer who went to the prom and I'll show you a network executive. Yeah, that covers it right. I mean, that in one sentence, in a few words, why I love her, but also in one sentence covers exactly what you're talking about. It's not my line, by the way, it's Chuck Lurie's. It's kind of like, like I think. think with an oyster, if it's got some kind of an irritation, it's how it makes a pearl. Yeah, and if it didn't have that irritation, something bothering it wouldn't be a problem. I've never compared you to Pearl Buck before, but I will from now on.

It's an amazing, you know, it's just. He's mistaken for Pearl Buck. But you know what? The fact is that, you know, a lot of people say, you know, I mean, there were guys that said, you know what, you're not as funny straight as you're, you know, you're not as good, whatever. I was working on a musical based on the, called The Secret Life of Queen Victorian. I was working with a couple of really funny guys and great guys and all. And I think they were saying to me, I remember one of them saying to me at the time,

you're not as good to load it as sober as you were loaded, which is, you know, the fact is now that I look back on it, I think I was lying to him about being sober then, you know, so that's a relief. But I wrote in spite of the drugs. I mean, I would get a little bit of sleep, I wake up and do the work that was good. And there would be seven pages of just crap from before. when I was loaded and all. And also, it's interesting that I had the kind of career that I did in the 70s

when I went ahead and crossed the line from abuse to, used to abuse to addiction. But you go jump into the 80s and I did Ishtar. I mean, it's like, you know, the 70s was, you know, nominated for six Academy Awards. I won one, one. And the 80s, I did, Ishtar, you know. So there's a lot of, you know, that's, you could tell that to kids and that's pretty much the story of my life, you know. But I also think that you were, if I think that there's, and that question always does come

up, especially in a lot of the work that we're doing now. And I think you can get away in the beginning with a certain amount of abuse and creativity. But I mean, what's the longevity of a career? It's discipline. And I think just like, you know, you did it until you just burned yourself out and then you had to go away and get clean and come back. And you can't sustain. Look at all the people who are real drug addicts. They're dead. You know, or they're no longer working. You can't, you've got that. You've got to have that discipline at the end of the day, right? You've got to show up. Had they not been doing drugs, would there have been a Sergeant Pepper's lonely Hodge Club band? Ooh, good question.

Yeah, I think as a matter of fact, I think that Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club band probably exists because there was enough sobriety in the room to get it done. Oh, okay. Because they weren't all doing it. Yeah, exactly. I think that, you know, if you take George Martin out of the mix, there's just going to say. There is no, there is no, thank God he was there. Yeah.

Or you look at Lenny Bruce. You look at anyone who just, you know, completely self-destructed. Would Lenny Bruce have stayed gone? If Lenny Bruce had been a drug addict, how long would his career have been? What always got me about, when they talk about comics like Belushi or Chris Farley, and they'll go, oh, there was the good side of him where he'd run naked down the street screaming at people, but then there was the bad side of drugs. Wait a minute. Hold on a second. Let me get out my dictionary here and check out what is good and what is bad.

What are George Carlin say he used to light up a joint just to do the polish when he was writing. comedy. And I always wondered if, you know, a little bit of stimulation was not a bad thing as part of the creative process. Falkner wrote drunk and edited sober. Or was the other way around? That's Hemingway. Was that Hemingway?

Yeah. Wow. I was so impressed that I'd used a blind about Fawker. And then I fucked it up. What condition was he in when he shot himself? I think fucked up. Oh, okay. What condition was he what? When he shot himself?

We're certainly depressed. Oh, yeah, certainly depressed. which seems to be in the I think it's like I think your brain when you're young can absorb a certain amount of stuff and then you hit your middle age and it goes time out

you know either you get clean you're going to die I do think that's true I just think you can't do it interesting and now we should concentrate a little bit

on your career in this interview or lack of drugs I mean Paul you became and I remember it was like you became during the 70s and 80s, I guess.

It was like where you popped up on every single show. Oh, I became bad, you know, like I was addicted to this. I was addicted to, yeah, America's sweetheart. It's what, I mean, it's tough. Being different is tough. You know, being special is, in my case, addicting. You know, when I was treated like I was somebody, I went any place where I would get that treatment.

You know, I mean, it just plopped down a camera at a couch, and I was on that couch. You know, I did Carson 48 times. the joke is that I remember six, but the fact is that I became better at showing off than showing up. And my craft suffered, and it's just I loved the attention. I love the attention. And I would have stayed there until I actually burned out every possible venue of being seen. But another addiction outran it, and the addiction that outran it was my addiction to cocaine and alcohol.

And one of the elements of that disease is isolation. And so when the desire to be loved, you know, what I would call it clap trap, you know, there's a clap, I was in a clap trap trap. You know, I loved, and it's not that kind of clap, it's this kind of clap. Well, I did a little of both, but the fact is that I was, I fell victim to the clap trap. I love the attention. I loved the applause. Well, there's a great thing in the documentary, a great moment where after you win the Oscar, the next morning, Circus of the Stars calls. Yeah, and as they said, we searched the Parishet Club of America's record books, and all we're looking for a celebrity that skydives, and you're the only one we get found. It's not you, is it? And I went, yeah, it is. It was like, because I had that moment, I just saw, okay, I just won the Oscar. Now what? It's like, I needed to feel, I needed to be a little more special, a little more different, a little more courageous, a little more whatever.

Was it thrills, chasing thrills, or just chasing the need to be noticed more? Well, you know, it's like a lot of guys who I thought were absolute assholes, and I didn't know what they were talking about. I said to me, you're probably just trying to, like, prove that you're a man, even though you're short. And I said, that's bullshit. And then I spent thousands of dollars on Kleinian analysis, and my therapist said, you're trying to prove you're a man just because it's like the exact same thing truck drivers have been telling me for years.

And one of your, like, bandmates or something, a musician said to you at one point. Chris Caswell said, I'm worried about you. I fired him. I fired him on the spot. incidentally he's working for me still working with me still incidentally I got an email last night with our music cues for the podcast Ms. Jackson. Excellent. But it is funny

with fame it is one of those drugs that when you first get it it's a real high and then you it's not even as big a high afterwards but you have to keep it going like you know if they tell you to do porn and you go well people are going to see it and I'll still be famous? I took my clothes off in a movie and they changed the rating from R to PG.

It's just insane. So insulting, you know. It's just insulting, you know. But, yeah, yeah, I just, you know, it's addicting. You know, it's totally addictive. Tracy, do you have some of the same issues in as far as being attracted to

show business? Was it all about the work or was there some desire to, hey, let me get a little taste of this glamour, a little bit of fame? I mean, I, you know, I always wanted to be an actress from the time I was very young. You wanted to be Marlowe Thomas, right? I wanted to be Marlott Thomas, and I wanted to marry Donald Hollinger.

You know, I always wanted to be an actress, and then by round, by the time, I was 27, I wasn't getting the parts that I should have gotten. I think there's a moment when you want to do that, and I started to write on a bet, and then within six months I had a huge agent, and I was writing pilots, and I had an overall deal, and I, yeah, part of me wanted it, and part of me still likes it, if people know who I am. But really for me then it just became out the work. I'm pretty happy just being able to work every day and expressing myself. And if people know who I am, then I'm happy, sure. But I never, you know, I never experienced that enormous kind of fame that it became who I was.

I mean, there was one point when I made a documentary in for about three weeks, I became really, really well known. And like the inquiry was following my daughter and I around. And I, in that moment, I went, you know, this is not so great. I don't think that this is something that I really want in my life. But I never experienced the Pauley experience, but I did always want the, I've always wanted to, I've always wanted to be known for what I do. I want, and I think when you, as long as you get to work, it's not even, I don't know, maybe I'm a little healthier than Paul, but.

I was going to say, my line was going to be, once again, mental health rears, it's ugly hit, you know. I think fame or money and recognition for your work, they give you the opportunity to do more work. I mean, when you says true Gilbert, I mean, you kill it in a club and then you get better club and then you get a better and as long as you keep doing the work and you don't let that go to your head in a way that corrupts you you just get to do better work i think for me it was just always about the chance to keep working and get to do better work and if that meant you get to be a

little bit better known that's how you do it mental health mental health we should i'm kind of we should introduce you to our friend bill perski who created that girl i've met bill percy actually yes i have met bill percy since you're so donald hollinger and i know i'm sorry Oh, I would totally. When West Jet first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion, inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board.

Here's to Westjetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. And you wrote an episode of Beretta. Yeah, Paul, what the hell? I was on the couch with Robert Blake. I said, I love his show. I'd love to do it sometime. He said, right one.

I was the only one that later. I was the only one that did, you know. But you, you've acted a bunch through the years and all, and you found a whole thing in voiceover. Is that not the most wonderful? Oh, yes. You know, yes. Where did that start?

Oh, okay. I guess the... Paul is now interviewing Gilbert. Yes. I'm having a what? I said, Paul is now interviewing Gilbert. He's a better interviewer than I. Well, you guys are about to launch your own podcast.

It's funny because that's when you slid into, and you started acting, but then you slid into it, and you not love doing that as well? Yes, I love doing voiceover work. I mean, I guess what really was the main thing. Let me admit something. I'm really not interested in your voiceover, but I have to admit something.

I noticed that like three times Tracy, like, addressed you and took things right back to you, and I thought, I'm such an asshole. I'm just sitting here talking about myself. I think I should probably ask Gilbert something right now. Yeah, but I'm not as self. obsessed as you are and that's my whole thing about having exactly so that's what I observed

so it was like it was like a mild moment of progress for me where I said you know because I don't really care about Gilbert that much at this point no I do care about Gilbert but I don't but I don't think there's anything interesting about how he became a voiceover actor but I was horrible Gilbert this refreshing honesty Paul and all I can think about was how many green envelopes does he get

from Aladdin you see that's the writer in me Right? We're having a moment here. Rigorous honesty. And, you know, that's what I'm most excited about, about us doing a podcast, because you can just do that. I mean, it's like, you can just take over and not talk to the guest. No, but you can be honest.

You can be just totally honest and it's conversation. That's what's a treat about sitting here. Beyond the fact that we have, I get to talk about my favorite subject. Me. Me. Yeah. But, but I just, and that's what I'm most looking forward to. Talking about you?

Well, I'm not going to let you. No, okay. I know that. But just conversation, you know. An honest conversation, apparently. Honest conversation. Well, Brin, since you brought it up. That's recovery.

So tell us about the show since you brought it up. We haven't launched it yet. No, tomorrow. We go off to, we go tonight. Podcast 1. Give us a date since this. We don't know when this. We'll run this.

We'll run this. It won't be tomorrow. Yeah. Tuesday, June 9th will be our first podcast on podcast one. Weekly. Gratitude and trust weekly. We're starting out weekly. You guys are weekly, right?

Yeah. We are. Yeah. You're weekly. Very weekly. Very weekly. No, you're not. Hey, Tracy's a fan of the podcast, Gil.

She listens. Really? I've been binging it. Yeah. And Paul hates it? Nope. No. No, but Paul, he hasn't been on it yet.

Once he's on it, he'll listen. Paul can't find his car keys. You want me to find a link to the podcast and, you know, you know, it's like, I have a great memory. I'd like you to meet her. Hi, Tracy. I'll say, let's listen to Gilbert. He'll go, let's listen to the nerdist.

We're on there. I go, well, soon we'll be on Gilbert. Then we come. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I love it. Okay, and it's called gratitude. Gratitude and trust. Based on the book.

Based on the book. The concept of the book was a recovery is not just for addicts. You know, and it's interesting. As we went around and started talking about the book and everything, there's a kind of a connection that the two of us have that people would say, the two of you ought to be doing a show, you ought to be doing its show. And all of a sudden, the idea for a podcast. came up.

Actually, I realized how many books it took to get on the New York Times bestseller list. The week we got on the bestseller list. And then I realized how many... We sold 98 books that week. I realized how many, even a not-a-successful podcast,

how many hits you get. Yeah. I went, let's do the podcast. It's the new thing. The new thing. The new thing. Yes, you're called Norm Patton. Well, welcome.

Thank you. Thank you. Well, well, I'm learning from you guys. His brain... What's in his brain? What's in his brain? What's in his brain? his brain. That's what I'd like to find out. You don't want to know, Tracy. You don't want to know.

I mean, the memory is, I listened to these podcasts and he'll be like, you know, Marie Osmond showed up on the lot wearing a pink dress and she marched in the third. Too much. It's like insane. It's too much. How long were you on the view? How long did you work on the view? Two years. A little over two. That's where we met. Yeah. Yeah. I loved with your performance. And you introduced me to your co-writer for the gentleman who co-wrote Rainbow Connection. Was with you. Kenny Ash, Kenny, Penny was in the dressing room. Exactly.

Kenny and I wrote a bunch of songs together. Why are there so many songs to put rainbows? And what's on the other side? Again, John Vander. Rainbows are visions, but only illusions. Rainbows have nothing to. Okay, I'll do Willie and Ellison. You do me.

Okay. So we've been told. And some way it's too high. Why are there so many songs about rainbows? What's on? What's on the other side? Rainbows are visions, only illusions. Rainbows have nothing to hide.

So we've been told. Some choose to believe it. I know they're wrong waiting. We, one day we'll find it. The rainbow Redmondion! The loophers, the dreamers, and me.

I won't ever speak again. You just ruined your voice, Paul. Wow. Okay, interview me. You'll be Gilbert and I'll be evil. All right, I'll be Gilbert. So, I'll have for breakfast. Will, I had some scrambled eggs

and some orange juice. It's true you're as well and down as they say you are. No, no. My penis is quite tiny. That's not what I heard. Oh, Lord. I always wanted to ask myself that question. It's barely...

I heard they called you the log. The legend of the log. There's been nicknamed the Enterprise. No, no. It's barely visible to the human eye. Oh, I thought you were talking about my... I thought we were talking about your talent. Now you've done it.

You've got Paul Williams' working blue, Gil. Now, couldn't we? I wish you would do this more off? May I talk about my bulge now? What did you call him early? I have burglar balls. Oh, yeah, I'll say, you have balls of a burglar. Balls of a burglar.

For going through that jungle in the Philippines. I will steal for sure. Speaking of your songwriting. The segue. ways are not easy to make. You mean from Cough to songwriting? That was like a hard... Well, I just want to ask a question about the Rainbow Connection. You said one line in the song

may be the best line you've ever written. Who said that every wish would be heard and answered of Wished on a Morning Star? The line is somebody thought of that, and someone believed it. Look what it's done so far. Great. And, God, I can't hear after doing New Gilbert's voice. That happens. I think I feel every week.

My inner ear that is now, you know, suddenly wants to stand up. I don't know. It's what it weird. Yeah, I think that thoughts become things. I think that, you know, I'm a, I'm very jimony-cricket about the life I've been given and the way this whole thing has evolved. Thank you, Darren.

And I haven't really chased, you know, much of what's happening to me right now and all. The last 25 years, my concentration has been on my recovery and all, and it's kind of, and wonderful things have happened. Tracy is a classic example. I mean, she heard me say that my Chuchee runs on gratitude and trust, and she came up with a whole idea for the book. and a way to share on this message and all and everything. So the older I get, the less and less I feel like I have to do with the creation of the best things in my lives.

It feels like it really is at this point all a gift. And it's not funny, but it's a really, really wonderful comforting feeling to know that you can just get up in the morning and be led to what you're supposed to do that day if you listen, you know. Well, the scene in the movie where you go to the Philippines, and I believe it's a shot of a bus boy who knows the words. to one of your songs. What I call a heart payment, yeah. Yeah, and Mike Ness, we had in Mike Nesmith on the show, who we know you know, and he was talking about why he never liked him.

Interesting. Sorry, I had an attack of the Gilbert. Interesting. I did. Say it in my voice. Yeah, never liked him. I think you should be more Gilbert. I think we're going to have to, like, do that.

Exactly. Make you more Gilbert, yeah. Oh, I love Mike. He was, you know, so talented, too. He was just talking about gratitude about how the faces of the monkeys fans that even though there are parts of the monkeys that didn't mean that much to him He didn't appreciate it while it was happening. He looks into the eyes of people that it's such an important part of their lives.

It was a huge part of their lives, yeah. And it just, he does feel the same kind of gratitude. Really good songwriter, too. Oh, sure. The one song I listened to the band was a big hit. I actually had a song that was supposed to be a big hit, and they on the B side was supposed to the band, and they turned it over and played his side, you know,

but I forgive it because it was really, because you got paid for the B side too, you know. But, yeah, you know, his mother invented Whiteout. We had a whole interview with him about it. The liquid paper, liquid paper, yeah. Yeah, Mike's true. The two great nose in my life, two important nose in my life, as I auditioned for the Mousketeers and the Monkeys,

and they both turned me down, which was a real gift. Oh, Lord, was that a gift. You would have made a kick-ass monkey. Yeah. I'd have been a good Mousquetier, rather. I'd have been a better Mousquetter. Do you think the monkeys would have ruined you, your career? We're talking about singing or sex.

So that's just over the edge, isn't it? No. Because, I mean, they became so big. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, what it would have, in a way, it would have done what, you know, what being an entertainer did for my craft. Because I think, as I said earlier, that, you know, that need to get all that attention pulled me away from songwriting. And there's no way in the world that I could have become a songwriter with and being one of the monkeys. That was a full-time job, you know.

So, yeah, it was, it would have been, it would not have been good for me. It was great for Davey. It was good. They already had one little guy and a little guy with a big talent. And Tracy, go ahead. Go ahead, go. No, no, I was going to say in the film, in the biography, you see people come up to you who are crying at your concert.

And it's funny, like the first instinct I have is always like, oh, God, are they pathetic? Look at the crying over some entertainer and blah, blah, blah. And then you get that feeling. You get the second thought of like, wow, he means this much to their lives. And it's like a nice thing. He has a real core group of like, oh, I shouldn't say this. I'm like Gilbert's.

What the fuck. They're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like middle eight. They fall between, say, 50 and 60. They're usually really overweight. And they tend to be single. This is true, right? And they kind of follow you around.

They just show up in an airport. But you can always see them from a mile away. Is that true? It is kind of your core group. They're always beautiful. I've just lost so many friends. Oh, my God. It's just, you know, the thing is, look, it's like it's, what's there's, I just, I actually

tweeted a great quote this morning that applies, and it was, you can't read you tweet something. I know, I know. I'm having a senior moment. I can't remember what it was, but it was perfect for it. It's not, and it's, it's, it's the Larry David show. No, no, no, no, wait. Never mind. I'll be back.

They're not all overweight. I'm taking it back. I'm feeling guilty of at the spacer bar. I'm going to look for my conscious mind. I'll be right back. Gilbert's rubbing off on this. This is you off drugs. But there was some rain damage, you know, there was a few, you know, a little bit of, a few neurons aren't quite synced up.

No, but I, you know, the fact is that there is a, there is a, a bunch of Paul Williams fans that fall into the description that she speaks of, and I think I wrote a lot, because I wrote a lot about, loneliness and heartache and and feeling like you didn't fit in. I think there's that kind of emotion underneath a lot of the songs. There's a lot of people in this world that feel that way, you know. Well, yeah, because you wrote, all of your songs seem to be like that, like, you know, someone being lonely. Ouch, mommy songs. Yeah.

Well, rainy days and Mondays was part in part inspired by your mom. You know, we have, my mom's who used to tell you, she would talk to herself. She would, you know, she would go, God has a plan for you, my son. and then she'd walk off when she'd find me, and write my little songs in the morning, and I'd be sitting there. She'd go to work, you know, and she'd say, don't worry, my son, God has a plan.

And then she'd walk up, you'd hear, son of a bitch, I hope so. She'd talk to herself, and I'd ask her about it, and she'd say, which for her was a word. Yeah. I'm just feeling old. So Roger Nichols plays a beautiful melody for me, and I hear, what am I going to write about? I remember my mom and talking to myself and feeling old.

But that's a song where it took, We wrote most of that song, and it took me probably a month to figure out what I was going to do to not just be down, because they didn't want the song to just be a downer. And then all of a sudden I went, wait a minute, funny, but it seems I always wind up here with you. Nice to know somebody loves me. And I found a way to make it positive, which I think is kind of a feature in most of my songs, too, that they have a positive outcome. Yeah. And I'm listening.

I'm going, he does a terrible Paul William. I was going to say, I'd like you hear Gilber sing that. That's what Gilby doing. There's no giddy no brain. My smallest of dreams won't come true. That's the way you remember me. I'm sorry, I don't sound that way anymore. The sinus is cleared up.

I'm doing old. Sometimes I'd like to quit. Nothing ever seems to fit. Hanging around some kind of lonely clone. See, what I love is the fact that you know the words of these songs, which is really touching to me. He's a fan. Why do I feel like this is?

is going to end up on his act pretty soon. He's like, he's not a heart payment. You know, that's, he knows the words to all this song. Even if he's making fun of you, it's okay. Any attention is good attention. Inside Gilbert is an overweight, 55-year-old single woman. And that's why he's a huge success. He didn't pull these out for you, Paul.

With a lot of cats. I'll direct you to earlier episodes where he was doing, where he just got into Paul Williams songs, and he just started singing. Oh, I love that. So he didn't, he didn't just try. this out because you're here. He's actually obsessed. We're together again.

Days are short and the nights grow cold. Some people get twice, but you just got older and you never listened anyway. That's the hell of it. Oh my God. Animal in the Paradise. Good for nothing. Bad and bad.

Nobody likes you and you're better off. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. We all came to say. Bye.

Oh, I love it. I love it. I would have paid to be here today. Me too. Did we've only just begun, really begin as a bank jingle? Had all the romantic beginnings of a bank commercial. It did. Roger Nichols and I were asked to write the song.

We wrote the song for this pretty little commercial. And Richard Carpenter called and asked if there was a whole song. The number one album at the time was in a Gada de Vida. There's no way in the world that song was going to be a hit song until an angel sang it. And when Karen sang it, people responded. So Richard Carpenter saw the bank commercial? The bank commercial recognized my voice. I was singing the commercial.

Incredible. We've only just begun. We've only just begun to live what lesson promises a kiss for Luke and we're on. Is it Paul Williams or is it Memorex? Is it Paul Williams or is it God? We've only just. Be Good. Biner, listen to yourself.

John Biner, we should get John Biner for the show. And Tracy, speaking of writing, you were a Neil Simon fan. And how did you, you started out wanting to be an actress? How do you make the... Jewish Elvis. Yes. How do you make the transition into writing? I...

Well, the truth is, there was this lesbian who was in love with me. I like it already. Right there. We should devote the entire show to this story. No, it's a very true story. And she's dead, so I can tell the whole story. There was this lesbian who had a lot of money who was in love with me, and she was a producer in her spare time.

And she also decided that she wanted to be straight. So she fell in love with Derek Jacoby, who's like the gayest person in England, and she was going to produce, and she was producing shows for him. So at one point she said to me, because I was funny, and I wasn't getting any acting work, and she wanted to sleep with me. She said, you should write. And if you write a play, I'll produce it on Broadway. Well, I was 27 years old.

I thought, I can, you know, sit down and do this. So I thought, yeah, yeah, I want a Broadway show. I'm not going to sleep with her, but I'm with the Broadway show. So I kind of, anyway, so I sat down and in three weeks, I wrote a play. And somewhere in the middle of the play, I just realized this is what I should do. And then she got mad at me at lunch a couple weeks later and just sort of walked out of my life, but I had a play. And, you know, it, someone saw it at ICM, and they took me on. And within a year, I was sitting under a palm tree in Hollywood with a deal with Bud Grant

who just left CBS, and I had my own show on the air within a year and a half of that. So it was really fast. It just sort of happened. But if this girl, how do things happen? That literally was the way it happened. I think if she hadn't said, do it, I don't know what I would have done. I would probably be working at a red lobster right now. Well, you're both people who started pursuing acting.

Yeah. Paul, too. Paul, you wanted to be Montgomery Clift. And both started writing at like 27, which is really interesting. Well, I think there's this age. I was having to deal with a friend the other night, and their son was starting to give up acting, and he's 30. I went, well, you know, you get to this age,

and you go, okay, maybe it's time that I'm a grown-up. Even if I haven't made, I'd actually been in a film called Heartburn that Mike Nichols put me in. And I went and I shot the scene with Merrill Street, but then the next day I was standing in line at Equity, waiting for some, you know, roadshow production of a Beth Henley play or something. And I realized, I can't, I can't live like this. Yeah, this is a terrible life.

So, you know, writing, that was it. Then I've been writing ever since. Why didn't you sleep with her? She just wasn't my type. She was really bossy, and I'm the only bossy one in the room. Well, make something up. Right there, you know, part of me went, wait a minute. Why didn't you?

I also didn't know that we both started writing at 27. I've never told that story before, actually, because she's dead. Well, she's dead, I can say it. Isn't 27? the age, the magic age when people die? Rock stars die, yeah. Yeah, Janice Joplin and... Yeah, there must be more.

Oh, yeah, there's a bunch of them. 27. I'll Google it. You die or a lesbian falls in love with you? Watch his name with the guitar. Jimmy Hendrix? Jimmy Hendricks? Yeah, Jimmy Hendricks. Who? A bunch of famous rock stars all died of 27.

Jim Morrison. Jim Morrison. Our research team is on it. Thank you, Dara. How old was James Dean? How old was Kurt Cobain, too? James Dean, maybe. I think James Dean. Maybe younger.

Yeah, I don't know. There you go. 27 Club. Now, Jesus made it to 33. So that's pretty old. That's the rumor. But he wasn't singing. Exactly.

Thank God he could be picked up to like the guitar. James Dean was 24. 24. Thank you, Dara. Wow. That whole fast car thing. You go sooner. Yeah.

And was not interviewed on the Joe Franklin show with Al Pacino. Oh, yes. Joe Franklin came on. And, you know, Joe Franklin talks about himself quite a bit in his day when he was, and he would have these stories saying that, oh, on one of my shows I had on both James Dean and Al Pacino. Huh? And we did the math.

And Al Pacino would have been 10 at the time. God love you, Joe. Joe, well, he just didn't, you know. Well, those cards get. you know, get moved around in the later years. I'm observing some of that myself. Already.

So speaking of acting, Paul, you wanted to be Monty Clift. And I've looked, I always joked that I felt like Montgomery Cliff and I looked like Haley Mills. That was, and it was really, really hard to cast. So you could have done parent trap.

I could have done parent trap. It's true. It's been great. Exactly. And you wanted to be a movie star, really. Yeah, I didn't want to be an actual. I wanted to be a movie star. I wanted, you know, I wanted to, you know, yeah, I loved Montgomery Cliff.

My two favorite actors in the world had totally different styles. They were Spencer Tracy and Montgomery Clift. And I just, I mean, watching them, I just, that's what I wanted. I didn't, I think of, you know, I didn't want to be me. More than wanting to be an actor, I didn't want to be Paul Williams. And that's the, you know, that's the, you know, a little time on the couch has took me finally to that point of view. So once again, a fascinating story about my child. I think Peter Sellers said something very similar in an interview that he wanted to be somebody else.

He was always better at being someone else. Yeah, playing ourselves is weird. I mean, if you honest said, it takes me like two days to lose what I call it losing my hands. You know, if I get an acting job because there's a lot of space in between the acting jobs, there's about two days where I don't know, I mean, I don't know how to sit. I don't know how to walk, you know. And I call it losing my hands. hands. And you know what I'm talking about?

Oh, yes. Just like, okay, this is really simple. This is just an establishing shot. We want you to get out of the car, walk over, walk in, and walk up to the counter where you'll have a conversation. We'll pick it up there. Okay, walk from the car to the counter. We'll... You turn into Jerry Lewis. I don't know how to do this, you know.

But, yeah, I think, you know, that I'm looking back, I just didn't know how to be me. And I certainly didn't feel much of anything in those days. Before I drank alcoholically, I acted alcoholically. And the way an alcoholic acts is he just doesn't feel stuff. He avoids it. He avoids it, which I did. I don't think people who know you as a songwriter are aware of the fact that you are also a child actor. Well, I was in my 20s when I was playing children.

Right, but that's what I meant. I played a 13-year-old when I was in my early 20s, and the loved one, I played the boy jeans. The loved one, right. And you weren't Gary Coleman or anything. No, I wasn't Gary Coleman. Gilbert and I love to love them. And that had Jonathan Winters in it. Yeah.

And Sir John Gilgilder. Yeah. Rod Steiger. James Coburn had a small part. It was just an amazing cast in all. Sir John Gilgut and all huge. And here you're a kid from the Midwest walking onto a movie set. Oh, I walk onto that set.

You see that big old Panavision camera and Haskell Wexler and all these people. And it's like, oh, my God. And Frank and I were talking before that you were in a movie with Robert Duval. That's the chase with Marlon Brando, Jane Fonda, Robert DeVall Arthur Penn Arthur Penn to read the

Yeah, exactly I actually on the set was playing with the guitar I had a shared dressing with the guy that had a nice guitar And so I picked up his guitar I said don't mess with that That's a Martin

I said oh okay I went and got a little guitar Painted it so it would look good It was brilliant And it started just doodling I actually doodle a little song in that movie that Robert Deval said Come here and show it to

to the director, and Arthur Penn filmed it and put it in the movie. Before I was a songwriter, it was just doodling. It's doodling. You never know what's going to happen. You never know. The Big Amigo led me to it. You'd credit that with kicking off a musical career?

Well, you know, it's a billboard. It's like one of those moments where you kind of, you look back at your life and before you, you know, before, you know, from the other, looking from the other end, young to old, you'd never see it on. I certainly didn't, but looking back, you go, oh, my God, there's a billboard there. There's, you know, you scratch out.

two lines of a silly little song and they stick it in a movie. Wait a minute. Maybe you should examine the idea of being a songwriter. It took another couple of years to get to that. And that brought the room to an absolute. And ladies and gentlemen, that's what we like to call room tone. I think we need Gilbert to sing a little bit of Someday Man now. Oh, wait. He doesn't know that one.

Okay. Tracy, you said you were a Paul Williams fan. So what were you a fan of years before you met Paul? Was it the movies? Was it the songs? No, I just, it was the songs. Was there something about him? Well, I was like, I was a fat girl.

I mean, and I was sitting in my room. And I think, and I had a screwed up childhood. And, you know, Paul sang to that part in people, loneliness. Gilbert, can you sing a couple rounds of loneliness? Loneliness, do you know what? I can't sing her. But, you know, his songs really did speak to that part of you that was, that was sad. Yeah.

You know, and I think sad people related to Paul. And so I was sad. And I remember seeing him on probably Mike Douglas, probably, Rove Griffin, because I couldn't stay up that late in those days to see you on Carson. And I just remember thinking this guy's really fucking funny. I probably didn't say fuck that. I might have been eight years old, but I thought it. And I just...

She didn't say fuck until she was maybe... Like nine. Yeah. I have not stopped. But I remember thinking he's just hysterically funny. and I would stay up late to watch him on Carson and sometimes sneak it. You know, I don't know what it was about.

I honestly don't know. I mean, I'm kind of a believer in like things there are sometimes meant to be. Anyway, so there was always, and I used to see him. I went to see him at the Universal Amphitheater, and I slugged my grandmother in the middle of the concert. Which is on tape. She's on tape, but she left me there. She's on tape recorder trying to record me and gets in an argument with her grandmother. And I slug her.

I'd give me my poor. Should I slugged my grandma? Set me home the next day. Grandmother abuse. Elder abuse. elder abuse at the age of 13, listening to Paul and Helen Reddy. But, yeah, I just had always related. I, you know, I liked Barry Manilow, too.

And Neil Diamond, you confessed to. And Neil Diamond. See, like, Barry Manilow also seems to get, like, like, a cult following. He does. Of people follow him from city to city. Because they're songs for the lonely hearts, but kind of like, kind of like, some of Paul's compositions. So, yeah, so I just, that was it. You know, that was my, and then it kind of went away, and I always liked the music.

I've always liked Paul's music. In Toronto, every arrival is a statement, and nothing says it better than this. Cadillac Optic was the number one selling luxury EV in Canada for 2025. Find your rhythm across a seamless 33-inch display and an immersive 19-speaker AKG surround audio system. This city demands agility, and Optic delivers with precision to make every drive extraordinary. Let's take the Cadillac. Find out more at Cadillac Canada.ca. Luxury sales claim based on S&P Global Mobility Canadian New Vehicle Total Registrations for calendar year 2025 for the Cadillac

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I want combat dead. Starring Tom Hardy, Pierce Brosnan, and Helen Mirren. Do I have to do everything myself? You want to want! I'll give you a more! Mobland, new season hits September 18th on Paramount Plus. there's Paul. Yeah. And you know, you're an underrated comedian. I mean,

you're known for being a songwriter and a singer, but you've got to, if you allow me to say, you've got a knack for comedy. Well, life is funny. At least one of us has a knack for comedy. Yeah, I would never say that about him. Yeah, life is funny. Is there an ear for humor, sort of like an ear for music?

Do you have to be able to hear it? Do you have to be able to hear the rhythm of a joke? I have no idea. I mean, it's like, I just think life is funny, and I love, and I love funny. And I love sharp funny. You know, you talk about Carlin. You talk about, you know, reading Judd's book,

Jedd Appetal's book. I mean, he talks about, he wrote a luggage, he wrote a Gilligan's Island joke when he was like 10 or something. And I read it and I went, oh, my God. I mean, the joke was, if they were only going on a three-day trip, why do they have all that luggage? Right. Three-hour.

It was a three-hour tour. Three-hour tour. Right. Well, I heard that Melboro. when he was auditioning for his films, he wanted the actors to sing. He wanted to hear if they were musical. Because the rhythm.

Yeah, I think there's a connection. The Marx Brothers, all musical. I always thought, like, who's on first had a real catchy musical sound. I think you hear it or you don't. I don't think, don't you think, you can't teach people to be funny. I remember when I used to teach screenwriting for years. You can teach people technique. But either you hear funny in your head like music or you don't.

That's the way it's always been for me. Either you hear, and if someone goes off one beat, if they're reading something you've written, it's like you play a musical instrument and you're off one chord. It screws the whole thing up, right? Yeah. Isn't that true with a joke? I mean, one beat and the whole thing falls flat. I mean, it can be a nanosecond and it falls flat.

Well, that's why I always love to talk about the Abbott and Costello TV movie where Buddy Hackett and... Oh, Harvey Corman. McCormant were doing Abbott and Costello, and the bits were like completely off. They weren't funny. Yeah. And the whole thing that makes it so addictive, sorry. But what makes it addictive.

Yeah, is with like a who's on first or anything like that where it's so musical. Yeah, the rhythm. Yeah. The rhythm and the timing. But like watching a comedy piece, and I did a lot of research, and watching you go on the Tonight Show in your planet. the apes costume and your makeup. And you sing, if I'm correct,

here comes that rainy day. Yeah, yeah. The timing, the way you're waiting, the way you're taking pauses. I mean, I'm watching a comedian. I don't think I'm watching a musician. I'm very, I'll tell you what I'm proud of about that appearance, is I had a line that I still think is funny,

and it still gets a big laugh. Carson asked me, when he touches my orangutan face, and he's this is for a movie, and I said, no, this is six months of nothing but banana daqueries. Now, here's something. It's a great line. It's a great line.

You've acted with and been friends with Pat McCormick. Can you tell us a famous story that had to do with a helicopter? Pat McCormick. Oh, the helicopter with Pat McCormick? Are you thinking about Sid Caesar with the helicopter? Oh, I heard it with Pat McCormick. There's a Sid Cesar version? The aerial photo is the aerial photo.

Oh, no. Even Tracy knows the story. I know every story, Frank. I know every story. Go ahead. You do it. I'm going to do the story for you? You do it.

Come on, Tracy. See if it works for you doing it. All right. Let's see if I can do it. All right. So you and you go to a bar and you spend the entire night in a bar and your shit-face drunk. Exactly. And you stumble out of the bar and it's in Burbank and it's sort of a daylight.

and you just you can't see and Pat McCormick looks down at you and he says, you look like an aerial photograph of a human being. Yeah. And that's not the story. That's a good one,

but that's not the story. You look like an aerial photograph for a human being. And then he says to me... Well, I wasn't there. I didn't know his inflections. No, but... Which made me love him, of course. He offers a lot of shade. I also like that. But he looks, he said, you know what, little guy?

I don't remember where I parked my car. You're going to have to help me find where I parked my car. I said, okay, what kind of a car is it? And he went, oh, no, that would be cheating. Pat and I have a helicopter. You know, I'm... No, no. I can't imitate a drunk because I never drank.

This is the story I heard. If it's true. This will be funny. And, well, actually, I think it may be true because I met Tim Conway. And I was once working with him, and I said, I know a story about Pat, And without even completing the name, he goes, helicopter. And I heard that he and a bunch of his pals would get together once a year and try to outdo each other with like the parties the dinners they throw for each other.

And each one would have a more elaborate, expensive, fancier dinner. And then one time they got everyone in a van, McCormick, and he had then took them out to a heliport, and each one by one was given a bag with a tuna sandwich and an apple, and they said, you know, what the hell is this? And they were put on a helicopter with a hooker, and the helicopter was instructed to circle their house as the hooker was blowing them. Wow. I wish I'd known him then. You were not invited on that journey. I think that might have been before we were pals, you know. You know what?

That son of a bitch held out on me. I knew there was something there. Oh, my God. Sweets. Why would you not do that with me? You were great team. A sandwich and a blochob and you missed out. Yeah, exactly.

Boy, Pauley. He was big Enos to your little Enos. He was smoking in the bandit. Smoking the Bandit, one, two, and even worse. Yeah. And I got to tell you, to this day, you get off a plane in Nashville or in Dallas, or you go into a senator's office, you know, on the hill. And you're a little lean as for dead. God, I love those movies. We had no idea. They still live. Walking through an airport with him in the south. Yeah, we've done that. It is not fun. And getting back to Robert Blake, because I remember he eventually, I think he caught on that.

He then hated Carson for bringing him on because Robert Blake always had like kind of emotional problems. D-Stems and Do's. Yeah. And he felt like Carson was just using him as like this nutty guy. Yeah, I never, I didn't, you know, I don't, I didn't, I didn't have a real relationship with Blake. I saw him a few times through the years. We were always friendly and all there was a certain point where he, where he, I ran into him one time with, I was with, I just realized it's a story I can't tell because it's involved something else.

But, you know, in other words, this is a story without an ending. Take it. Didn't he kill, okay. Didn't Robert Blake kill somebody? Didn't he kill somebody? Allegedly. He allegedly. His wife.

His wife. Bonnie somebody. Right. And he's dead. No, Robert's with us. But he's not jail. I'm really confused about the whole history of Robert. He was acquitted.

Well, it's L.A. So he was acquitted. and it was kind of he pulled but he sort of pulled a Phil Spector or not I don't know but not quite well Phil we don't know but he's in jail and you can't get Frank to say it either

it's like we don't know back away from that story yeah but I was right that there was like a little thing about like someone died what was his wife yeah well that's a problem yeah but he was acquitted so he's still on our guest list yeah oh good

I think you should interview him oh I would love to yeah does he do interviews no I don't think let's talk about something safer How about Claudine Lange? Go ahead. What the? Oh, Spider-Savish.

Oh, she killed. She killed... By accident. By accident. Celebrity deaths for 100. She got off the hook, too, Paul. And so did William Shatner. Take Tracy Jackson to Blonde.

Oh, well, the Shatner thing. Oh, you think... The swimming pool thing? What was the thing in the swimming pool? She drowned in the swimming pool. Oh, she just drowned. So she just needed swimming lessons. Yeah, but if he would tell the swimming lessons...

The show has taken an ugly turn. It's turned into Hollywood Babel. Wow. Who was the guy? No, Frank will know this. Yeah. Who was the guy from SNL and his wife? He did kill his wife.

Tony Rosado. No, someone else. No, the comedian. But he never actually killed. No, the comedian was killed by his wife. Oh, well, he's in jail. He was in jail. He was in jail.

He was in jail. Put him on the guest list. He's in jail. No, he's out. Who's in jail? was in jail. Who were you referring to, Tracy? Oh, Tony Rosado.

Tony Rosado was a comic from Second City who became an essay. He was on SNL. He was totally. Phil. You're talking about Phil who was killed by his boy? Oh, Phil Hartman. Oh, no. The wife, yeah.

No, that's the other way around. Yeah. And then shot him. Shot herself. Come on, Trace. It's hard to keep all these things straight. Yeah, he was sleeping and she shot him and then shot herself. Yeah.

All right. That valley, that valley, that San Fernando Valley will do bad things to your head. I'm telling you. Stay out of Enzino. Once you get north of Moorpark Park. Yeah. All bad shit happens. And Sino and you just lose it.

You start killing people. It's like a post office. Like a big post office out there. We're winding down, but I'm going to ask Paul about Ishtar, which I love. Now, please don't tell me that you're disowning it because it was part of your last decade. Oh, no, I'm so proud of it. I'm so, you know, it was, I think I worked 18 months on it, you know. I think I spent the first year of it trying to get Warren to tell me I had the job.

You know, Warren Beatty was like, we just, you know, it was right. something that, you know, write these songs, these intentionally bad songs, to be sung by Warren Bady and Dustin Hoffman with a screenplay, a really hilarious screenplay by Elaine May. Elaine was going to direct, and it was just, it was an amazing opportunity to work on something that was, and I kept writing songs. I couldn't get Elaine to tell me what she wanted, you know. She said, I'll know when I see it. She did that with the actors. She did take after take after take, what do you want? I'll know when I see it. And I would write stuff and write stuff and write stuff, And by then I was on salary.

It was great. Columbia was pumping money into my bank account. And I finally wrote a song. I wrote a song called That a Lawn Moor Can Do All That. That's great. Saturday morning, the sound of a lawnmower touches my soul, touches my soul, brings back the memory of First Summer Love of Ella and Me That a lawnmower can do all that, that a lawnmower can do all that.

That a lawnmower can do all that. It's amazing. Got to read, sing the bridge. I can see you're standing in the backyard of my mind. She cracks her knuckles and the scablets on her knee won't go away. I can see the woman waiting in her eyes and I can see the love, but I can't see the Brooklyn Dodgers in L.A. That a lawnmower can do all.

And Elaine May went, that's what I'm looking for. And I was off and running. It was a great job. Was not hard to write a bad song, intentionally write a bad song? Oh, no. All contrary, I would say that to write a believably bad song, So write a song that starts out great that you then screw up. Telling the truth can be dangerous business.

Honest and popular, don't go hand in hand. Pretty good up to there. If you admit that you can play the accordion. And no one will hire you on a rock and roll band. It's like, wait a minute, where did they go? I saw the film recently. Lane May came out at the 92nd Street Y and showed the film. And it's unfairly maligned.

I mean, the press attacked it because she ran over budget and because she ran over schedule. But it's funny. And West Drack Weston's great. Charles Grotin's great. It's so funny. I urge our listeners to look at Istar. Tracy and I went out to, where was it?

The Astoria, the Film Academy and Astoria. Film Museum. Film Museum, exactly. And moving images, whatever. And I hadn't seen Elaine since we did it, but we were able to spend a little bit of time with it. It was great in all. And, of course, the other side of it is that Tracy was friends with Mike Nichols and all. And you actually introduced me to Mike when he was interviewed by Jud Appetow.

That's true. but I don't have any like, I can have any Mike Nichols stories? Not that they're funny. Well, you're a screenwriter. I mean, what did you think of Ishtar? I mean, it's not entirely successful,

but there are some really great things in it. Songs are good. And the songs are damn good. What was that guy? He should know. No, I think Ishtar is funny. There's no question. I mean, it's no Sarinite fever.

But no, it's a very, it's a funny film. It is a funny film. I mean, it was an attempt to make a Hope and Crosby picture. It was. I mean, I prefer a fan of the Paradise. But I know, I think, I think it probably is maligned, and who knows why it's maligned, maybe. But it's coming back.

You know, people now really do include it in pictures that are good that people always trashed. I think it's going to be, yeah. It's getting that kind of rep, I think. I read something the other day, like pictures that are trashed that are really good, Ishtar. New York Times give it a good, finally gave it a good review. 40 years later, whatever. Yeah, Blu-ray. Blue-ray has a way of changing people's minds.

Well, I mean, even Duck Soup was not, was not well-received. I mean, there are movies that gain a reputation over the years, and I really do believe Ishtar is going to be one. We do a mini episode on Thursdays where we recommend movies. And I'm jumping the gun in recommending Ishtar and the songs of Paul Williams. Sung by Gilbert Godfrey. Song by Gilbert Godfrey. Why are there so many songs support rainbows and what's on the other seed?

When you insulted me, I'd known Gilbert is such a good rendition of you. I would have liked him instead of Neil Diamond. Think of it that way. You know, I about maybe three or four times on stage did a bit when I didn't care if the audience was following me or not. I used to do a bit of, this is true. Years ago, I used to do this. Paul Williams fucking Shirley Temple. Tracy is clutching her chest.

At what age? Well, I don't want to say that. It would just be wrong. Okay, here's Paul Williams' fucking Shirley Temple. Oh, Shirley, your pussy is so tight. Oh, this, Mr. Williams, I really like a big, vainy, hairy dick. Oh, Shirley, would you like to give me a blow job, Shirley? Oh, yes.

Oh, my dick in my mouth. It feels so good. Oh, I'm going to come. I'm going to come, Shirley. Oh, that's good for me. Mr. Williams. Oh, can I, can I fuck in the ass? Oh, yes, Mr. Williams, I would be honored.

Can I take my dick out of your ass and smack you across the head with it? Oh, yes, I would be honored. Here's the line. Oh, my God. Here's guilt. You finally found the line. He's losing it. Curly blunt cunt.

Down on it. Oh, wow. You notice I have stayed out of this totally. He's turned several colors. Every now and then there's a little wisdom in the wound. Oprah says, there's a little wisdom in the wound that I back away, you know. And I didn't say any of the things that occurred to me. You know.

Off the air, I will share a couple lines with you that occurred to me that... Can't wait. Bring them to lunch. Now, these people want to eat, so we should wrap the show up. But you're both movie buffs, big-time movie buffs, and I saw a Turn of Classic Movies podcast interview with you, and you were talking about Lonely or the Brave, and you were talking about Sergeant York.

So for the two, the actor and the screenwriter, we're just going to throw out some random questions. Favorite character actor, any era? Tracy? Oh God. John Cleese. I'm sorry. John Cleese. Fish Called Wanda is my favorite movie ever. I don't know why. But John Cleese

to me is hysterically funny. No matter what he does, I laugh. I know maybe he's not considered like the total. We'll take it. I wouldn't have thought of him as a character actor. You wouldn't? No? Really? I would think of him as a leading man in comedies. But yeah, if you stretch it.

I was going more for the sort of Walter Brennan Arthur Honeycut. Arthur, yeah, George Kennedy, Arthur Honeycut. Go for it. But I'll take it. I have to, my favorite. Oh, like George Ken, like Burgess Meredith, like those guys? Gilbert loves Burgess Meredith.

Okay, then for Gilbert, I'll say Burgess Meredith. Okay. Because I love the original of Mice and Men. Oh, brilliant. Yeah. I'm a big Lonchini Jr. fan, of course. Rocky, he was pretty. I mean, he's, yeah, okay.

Yeah, someone like that. Paul. Eli Walley. Great. Oh, great one. Good choice. Miss Fitz. Yeah.

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Baby doll. Yeah, exactly. But there's also, I mean, there's guys like Royal Dano. I mean... Love Royal Dano. Oh, yes.

Yes. Yeah. But Eli Wallach, I mean, he was just a great actor. Just a great actor. And Miss Fitz is one of my favorite movies ever, you know. This one's for you, Tracy. Best or smartest romantic comedy that people don't talk about or give enough credit to. I know you wrote some rom-coms.

Oh, that people don't give them credit to? Underrated. Underrated romantic comedy. I'm putting you on the spot. You're really putting you on the spot because, shoot. Ask Pauley another question. Let me think. No, no, you do.

I got to go off the top. I don't have an underrated. I mean, I mean, when Harry met Sally. How about favorite? My favorite when Harry met Sally. Okay. I mean, you know, in terms of, I mean, I, but see, I kind of like films from the 90s. I know you guys all love the old films.

I'm really one of those sort of like 90s on people. Fair enough. Can I put you totally on this spot? Yeah. Most overrated film. Oh, the most overrated film. Probably Notting Hill. Notting Hill.

Okay. I think. Good cast that one. I mean, that's just maybe. Maybe, oh, God, I'm really bad about that. I mean, maybe if you go back to the 80s, I mean, coming home doesn't count, does it? It wasn't funny. No, but I really loved it.

I love Hal Ashby. I really love Hal Ashby, Shampoo. I love... Marilis from the waistband. Yeah. It's very funny. Oh, my God, but when he goes down on it, I'm sorry. That's like one of the great.

I'd never seen anybody go down on anyone until that movie. That's suck in my head. I'm sorry. It meant a lot to me. The next day our hair was curly. All across the boards. Right. Okay. Really? Shout out to Hal Ashby. I'm sorry. I'm too horny to actually answer any more questions now.

Now she keeps doing that. Best TV theme song that you didn't write. Oh, the best TV theme song that I didn't write. Wow. Because the front said to the man who wrote the Love Boat. Charlie Fox wrote Happy Days. He wrote Laverin and Shirley. I love American style? I love American style. Charlie Fox was the best.

He and I wrote Love Boat theme together and all, but he wrote so many good ones and all. The theme for MASH is no words in it, but just to... Written by Robert Altman's son, if I'm not mistaken. Johnny Mandel. Oh, Johnny Mandel. But didn't Robert Altman's son write the lyrics? Oh, he wrote the lyrics.

Suicide is painless? Suicide is painless, yeah. Johnny Mandel. Johnny Mandel. It's just great. Favorite sexual position? with Charlie Temple. Well,

it doesn't really matter which position we're in as long as it says the name black is on her dressing room door. But then to go back, I would make her shave, you know, so I could pretend she was,

wait a minute. See, that's what I wasn't going to say, and then I went, you know, I know you do. It's a lovely place to go to. Thank you. Thanks, Gil, for corrupting my childhood hero. Appreciate that.

All right, last movie one. Tracy, movie that changed you or rocked your world. Well, I guess we have to go back to coming home. Really? Coming home. Changed me or rocked my world. Changed my thinking.

You know, knocked you for a loop. I'm really bad. You know, now I'm on the spot. The movie that rocked my world was the way we were. Okay.

But again, it's a sex scene. It's when Robert Redford has sex with Barbara Streisand. And it's like, yes, handsome man will have sex with ugly girls. Think we got a recurring theme here. I was. You know, those were the films.

Yeah, those too. Those did it. Okay. Good choices. Paul, life-changing movie? I'm younger than he is. That's why you know. Oh, to kill him rockingbird. Edica's Feet. Great daddy. We all wanted to have. I love it. The most amazing film, my favorite film maybe, in the whole world.

Robert Mulligan. Exactly. Why aren't all sex, and yours are all like parents? Yeah. Yeah. But the thing is great is that in my real life, I'm all about sex and, no, wait a minute, no, that's not a show either. I think that, yeah, I think that movie just, on some, there are a couple movies that drove me to music.

One of them is, man with a golden arm, which is, because the music is part of the environment. And the other one would be Blackboard Jungle, because it's used to one, two, three, o'clock, four o'clock, rock, a do, five. It was, the music was integral to the story. It was part of the environment, not just the score. And I think there was something that sucked me into film and music in those two pictures. but but yeah

yeah good movies all good calls good choices I can't wait to watch coming home again you don't remember coming home I don't believe what year did it come out

78 78 okay by then I was yeah I was go watch that that to me was like a politically correct film in that it's like the ideal man

is a man who's paralyzed from the waist down that's what that film was telling you and maybe I was on to something yeah you know my former boss Joy Behar has a funny bit about coming home where after the sex scene her hair is curly

it was straight before the and she comes out now she's got a fro I don't remember that part the sex was that good yeah it was it was a very it was definitely a mind-blowing film who knew yeah who knew

I'm out of cards anything you want to ask these nice people Gilbert well I think I think we could wind it up with U.S. Gilbert Godfried and means Paul Williams. Should we lead Paul over there, or is that putting him on the spot? I am a horrible piano player, so I would rather stay Acapello, but, you know, I'd be... I've been meaning to tell you that. What did it cost you to rent that thing?

Nothing. It just threw it in in case you wanted to play. I didn't know your instrument of choice. No, no, no. Dream of wait. Dreams your dreams run wild. Her favorite song in mine is... I'm going to hold Dreamaway.

But if I... Now you're doing it as Gilbert. If I do, I won't be able to talk tomorrow on your podcast. My favorite Paul Williams. Oh, here we go. And wrapped around the music is the sound of someone promising they'll never go. Take it, Polly. You swear you've heard it before, is it slowly rambles on.

a nun. No need him bringing them back. They never Really, you know, what's the gone, whatever. Just an old song.

Fashioned, you left out. Fashioned. Oh, what? I mean fashion. You left out. Oh, my God. Which one am I? We'll be back with one of us

someday. Wait, wait, what's the next? Before we go, you go, plug the book. Tell us the book. Tell us the podcast. Look. Gratitude and Trust. Six affirmations that will change your life. Written by Paul Williams and Tracy Jackson. And the podcast. Gratitude and Trust.

Starting in June with their first guest, Judd Apatow. Actually, our first guest will be Chris Hardwick. Our first guest. Our first guest will be Chris Hardwick. But we're taping Judd-Haphafferson. You know the world of podcasts, right guys? We tape Judd tomorrow. We tape David Steinberg, Pangellette.

Wow. You're stealing all our guests. No, we are. I looked at your roster and I went, grab it. Damn it. Okay. Here, so you won't have to listen to it. Here's Paul Williams, interviewing David Steinberg. So, David, tell us how you first started doing comedy. Well, I started doing comedy when I was in Canada. Oh, Winnipeg. Yes. Well, Winnipeg sounds like a lovely place.

Oh, yes. Yes, I enjoyed living in Winnipeg very much. I love Winnipeg. What a treat, thanks, guys. Now, Paul, could you please tell me... He won't stop the show, Paul. Could you please tell me what it was like? Fucking Shirley Temple.

It's time for his medication. You know what? I knew he was going on. Okay, we have one more time. Where David? Time for your medication, Gilbert. Time for your medication. David, it was, I like doing a 69.

I'm Gilbert Gottfried. I'm Gilbert Gottfried. This is Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopatra. My new favorite episode. Thank you, guys. At the Pryors Club in New York City, where we've been interviewing Trump. Tracy Jackson, and Paul Williams, who revealed today he fucked Shirley Temple. Yes.

As Pat McCormick watched it from an helicopter. And now let's go down to the kitchen and get shit-faced. Thank you, guys. Wonderful show.