Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Griffin Dunne Encore

Episode Date: August 30, 2021

To mark the 40th anniversary of 1981's "An American Werewolf in London," Gilbert and Frank present an encore episode with actor, producer and director Griffin Dunne, who talks about blending horror and comedy, teaming with Martin Scorsese and Sidney Lumet, the cynical cinema of Billy Wilder and the lives (and work) of Joan Didion and Dominick Dunne. Also, Jerry Lewis adapts Gore Vidal, Otto Preminger takes a bad trip, Griffin sneaks onto the set of “Gilligan’s Island” and Tim Burton (almost) directs “After Hours.” PLUS: Howdy Doody! "Who's That Girl"! “The Panic in Needle Park”! The genius of Harry Nilsson! And the artistry of two-time GGACP guest Rick Baker! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when 20 extremely athletic Canadians who thrive on competition and won't settle for less than number one find themselves on a team? Taking on jaw-dropping obstacles all across Canada is one thing. Working together on a team with some pretty big personalities is another. It's a new season of Canada's Ultimate Challenge and sparks are gonna fly.

New episodes Sundays. Watch free on CBC Gem. Hey, Podcast Faithful. Frank here again, presenting yet another Encore episode from our vault, or our archive vast archive if you prefer this month uh month of august marks the 40th anniversary of a favorite 80s movie of mine and of gills and that is john landis's horror comedy an american werewolf in london which premiered on august 21st actually 1981 to be exact so it's been been 40 years almost to the day. And to commemorate that, we're reaching back to exactly two years ago, August of 2019. And we're going to repost our terrific interview with one of the stars of that movie, actor and director Griffin Dunn. Now, this was a fun, very easy, lively episode.

I mean, some of them are just easy slides down the chute where you don't break a sweat. And this was one. Griffin was up for anything. He got the show. He got our vibe. It was really smooth sailing all the way. The kind of chemistry that just happened right off the bat that you always hope for. I'd actually forgotten how good some of the shows we recorded back at Earwolf were,

and this is certainly one of them. We talked about American Werewolf, of course. We also talked about After Hours and Scorsese and how Gilbert is Scorsese's favorite comedian, which came as a surprise to Gilbert, and Sidney Lumet and Billy Wilder and working with Madonna and just about a little bit of everything. We also talked about Griffin's famous relatives.

And we also mentioned two guests during this episode that we had wanted to invite on the show, hadn't had at the time of this recording. And just a few months later, we succeeded in booking both of them. So listen for that. That's kind of fun. That was a fun surprise in listening back. So we hope everyone's making the most of yet another pandemic summer. And we hope you will enjoy this terrific, entertaining conversation with Griffin Dunn. Hi, this is Robert Wall.

And you are listening to the one, the only, my longtime buddy, Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre, and our engineer, Frank Furtarosa. Our guest this week is our favorite kind of guest, a New Yorker. He's also a producer, an Oscar-nominated director, a documentary filmmaker, and one of the most visible, versatile, and respected actors of his generation. He's produced prestige films, including Baby, It's You, White Palace, Once Around, chilly scenes of winter, the Sidney Lumet directed Running on Empty, and a personal favorite of this podcast, the Martin Scorsese Directed After Hours, in which he also starred as the tormented hero Paul Hackett. As a director, he's helmed the movies Practical Magic, Addicted to Love,

Fierce People, and the Academy-nominated short The Duke of Groove. He's also produced and directed a terrific documentary about his legendary aunt Joan Didion called Joan Didion The Center Will Not Hold. But it's his decades of excellent work as an actor that he's best known for, appearing in dozens of notable TV shows such as Frasier, Damages, House of Lies, The Good Wife, This Is Us, The Romanoffs, and I Love Dick, as well as his feature films My Girl, Quiz Show, Who's That Girl? Search and Destroy, Dallas Buyers Club, and of course, An American Werewolf in London. werewolf in London. Frank and I are excited to welcome to the podcast an artist of multiple interests and talents and a man who says he once watched director Otto Preminger freak out during a bad acid trip.

Griffin Dunn. I sound fascinating. Hi, Griffin. How you doing? I am really well. So I guess we're going to have to start with that. Yeah, let's. No, true story.

As a matter of fact, you mentioned the movie Duke of Groove. Yeah. It was a very kind of autobiographical. It was the very first thing I ever did as a director. And it was based on a party I went to at my aunt and uncle at John Dunn, Joan Didion's house in 1969. And my mother brought me, and it was on a school night. And she brought me because I begged her to because I knew that Janis Joplin was going to be there.

And I love Janis Joplin. And so when we got to this party, I said to my mom as we were pulling up in the driveway, I said, can you just pretend you don't know me? driveway, I said, can you just pretend you don't know me? And I was pretty sure Janice was going to like meet me and, you know, say, who are you here with? And I don't want to say my mom, you know? So I'm walking through, of course, she ignored me as did everyone at the party. I'm waiting for Janice. But as I'm walking around, no one talked to me. You know, people kind of hid joints as I walked away. I was like 13. Until this guy in a Nehru jacket wearing a gold necklace, who I recognized immediately as Colonel Clink from Hogan's Heroes. And he goes, come here, come here.

He goes, I sit here. You have nice vibes. You have a vibe very nice. You stay here. You stay here. I'm freaking out. I'm freaking out on the acid. I took the acid as you are the only, only life here.

Do not leave me. Do stay here. And he's holding onto my hand really close, and I'm looking at him closer, and I realize it's not Colonel Clint from Hogan's Heroes. So it's less impressive. And he's just a bald German guy, as far as I know. I didn't know who Otto Preminger was. And I finally extricate myself, and he goes, stop!

Halt! Halt! He didn't say, I didn't have you shocked, but it sounded like it. And I moved on to the rest of the party. And so the movie, that scene is not in the movie, but it's about Tobey Maguire, who played my alter ego in it, about the adventures that he has walking through the party and all the incredible people he meets in this one night. It's very good. It's on YouTube. People can see it.

They put it on YouTube in four parts. I know, and it's all screwed up because the ending, YouTube, for some reason, cuts it off. I know. Go to Vimeo. Vimeo, okay. And it's all in one fell swoop. It's a nice 30, 40-minute film.

It's very sweet. It could have been a feature. It could have been a feature. I know. It's Cameron Crowe-esque, if I may say. Yes, I thought the same. And you have no idea of the images floating through Otto Preminger's mind. Maybe he was doing research for Skidoo.

Some dark, dark stuff. And do you remember one of his movies was The Sterile Cuckoo? Yes. Do you remember with the scar on Liza Minnelli's face? Was that him? Yes. I think that's Bakula. Oh, you know what?

You're right. That's Alan Bakula. You know your stuff. But anyway, you know, there's – I looked him up. I think he's not even German. I think it might be Austrian. Austrian. Yeah.

Well, he made that movie Skidoo where Gleason supposedly took acid. Remember this movie that he made with Gleason and Groucho? Oh, God. Yeah. Well, he made that movie Skidoo where Gleason supposedly took acid. Remember this movie that he made with Gleason and Groucho? Oh, God. Yeah. You may have caught him in mid-research. There's also the famous story of him actually setting Gene Seberg on fire as John O'Rourke. Oh, yeah, that one I know. And while she was being burned at the stake, they really heated her up.

They did? Yeah, he wanted that look. And they got the look of terror and then, you know, got rid of the fire. Not a liked guy. Not a well-liked guy. Oh, no, no. He was brutal. Brutal on his actresses.

Yeah. Yeah, everybody hated him. Yeah. We had Austin Pendleton on the show. He liked him. Yes. Yeah. I liked Otto. Yes. Yeah. I liked Otto.

That was shocking. But, you know, I think he was different toward men than he was toward women. You know, actresses. Interesting. This was not atypical of your childhood, doing things like this. I mean, this is the fun thing. But one of the fun things about researching you is hearing about everybody that came to the house. And I was telling Gilbert, I mean, Wilder and George Stevens and Selznick

and all of these people that you grew up around and unfortunately being too young to recognize the value. I'm so bummed about that, you know, because they're just, you know, and I was just reading a biography of a guy named Ivan Moffat. Now, Ivan Moffat was a guy who smoked English, just very posh English accent,

and he would smoke, and the cigarettes, and I remember this as a little kid, would all get on his lap, and he was like, you know how adults can sometimes be ridiculous figures to a child. And I didn't find out until he passed away recently. I didn't find out that, in fact, this guy was with George Stevens, and they went in the liberation of Auschwitz. Ivan is one of the photographers. Wow.

Then he became a screenwriter, and he wrote Shane. He wrote In a Lonely Place. Wow. Then he became a screenwriter and he wrote Shane. He wrote In a Lonely Place. Wow. He, and Giant. I mean, my three favorite films. I should know that name.

And then, oh, it's fascinating. I mean, he would have been a great guest. Yeah. And had an extraordinary life of lovers

and all this kind of stuff. And that was like the least known person, you know, that would come to the house. Yeah. It's a fascinating childhood. And you're talking about how they would sit at the – your aunt and your uncle and your dad would sit and talk about the weekend box office take and studio politics.

Yeah, they were – that was our dinner table talk. And your father was friends with Humphrey Bogart. I wouldn't say they were friends, but one of his, he was, my father was a stage manager in live television and Playhouse 90. And one of, they were going to do an episode in Los Angeles,

a live episode broadcast from Los Angeles. And they sent him there to be the stage manager. And Humphrey Bogart was going to star in it or did star in it and Bogart said to him you know one day at the end after the end of rehearsal he goes you know how do you like Los Angeles kid and he goes you

know you want to go to a party and he goes yeah yeah you know put on a suit and we'll go to a party tonight and he goes to this party and it's like everyone in the world is at this party. And, you know, Bing Crosby is singing at the piano. And, you know, all the movie stars they grew up with were all there and they all welcomed him. And he called up my mom that night. He goes, we got to move to L.A. That was it, huh?

We got to get out of New York. We're going to be here. There were different stories about it. There's a story that Bogart took a shine to him and brought him to L.A. to do a live version of Petrified Forest. Not true. I don't think he decided. I don't think it was Bogart.

Maybe. You could be right about that. But I don't think. I thought that they met there. But he might have. I'm not quite sure. Differing reports on that. But I don't think – I thought that they met there. But he might have. I'm not quite sure. Differing reports on it. But it's fascinating.

And also that he was – Gilbert got a kick out of this, too, that your dad was the floor manager on Howdy Doody. I know. Yes. He was. And what they would do is, you know, before it would roll, they would take Howdy and they'd make him jerk off and go, and they would go down on Howdy and they'd do all this shit like this. They're counting off on the live talent. Four, three, two.

And then they'd put Howdy back and walk away. That is gold. They did filthy, filthy things to Howdy. That is gold. They did filthy, filthy things to Howdy. That is gold. I learned a lot about your dad doing the research. I mean, I knew a lot about him. I didn't know about Howdy Doody. That's just for you.

God, how I wish there was a film of that. Can you imagine? It's got to be in an old kinescope somewhere. I hope. And one of his jobs is bringing the kids into the peanut gallery. Yeah, yeah. But he did it all. He edited.

He talks about how he learned live television. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It was a real learning experience. From being in the trenches. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I found fascinating, too, was the Sinatra story.

That he said that when they were doing a live version of Our Town. Do I have this right? Yeah. And he said it was the first time he'd seen a star act out an ego trip where they were doing this. I can't remember who the director was. It was a known director

with Sinatra who gave the guy a really terrible time. But he says in the doc that Sinatra liked him. Like your dad? What dad said then? Yeah. About Sinatra? Did he doc that Sinatra liked him. Like your dad. What dad said then? Yeah. About Sinatra? Did he tell the Sinatra story about paying the maitre d' to punch him in the face? That one I don't know.

Oh, well, tell it. Yeah, because we didn't grow up liking Sinatra because of this very story. There used to be a club in L.A. called The Daisy. And it was like a disco at night and a place to eat during the day. With membership. And in like 1963 or so, my mother, who was a very, very beautiful woman, and my dad

walked into this, into the restaurant where the maitre d' seated them. And, you know, when the maitre d, in those days, people would like send the maitre d Christmas presents for their children and, you know, just to, you know, make sure they got the good table and all that kind of stuff. It was a real kind of community. And there was nobody there during the day except for them and Sinatra in the corner during the day except for them and Sinatra in the corner with Jilly Rizzo and about four other guys.

And for some reason, Sinatra had teased Dad or Mom at other things before, and he'd yell across the room, hey, when are you going to get rid of that guy, Lenny, and come and meet a real man kind of thing. And so there's been those sort of taunts. Anyway, they're sitting at the table. Major D comes over. And he stands over my dad.

And he's kind of shaking. And he says, Mr. Sinatra made me do this. And he whaps him across the face like with all of his strength and Jelly and Frank roar with laughter and my dad and my mom, they get up

they leave, they go to their car the maitre d' comes out and he cries, he's bursting to tears and he goes he scared me. He scared me. And he offered me the money. He gave me $100 to do that.

And I had to do that. And I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And then I never went back to the club again. Wow. So that was like our little childhood story about Frank Sinatra. So, you know, when he became really in vogue and, you know, all my friends would go, oh, you know, the chairman of the board and he's the coolest cat. I go, I don't think he's that cool.

You had a different take. I had a different take. Yeah. And it's funny. It's like nowadays if a celebrity did something like that, forget it. The world would know immediately. Absolutely. Absolutely.

It's an interesting journey though for your dad too but he goes to work for this company Four Star Studios which was run by David and I was telling Gilbert David Niven and Dick Powell

Charles Boyer and Charles Boyer people he liked very much and he wound up being involved in all of this wonderful television

some live and shows that weren't live I mean, Richard Diamond, Wanted Dead or Alive, The Rogues, St. Grey Theater, a lot of really good

early television. Yeah, yeah. The Big Valley. Big Valley, yeah. It was considered a Tiffany production company. Yeah. They were very classy

in an era where, you know, there were a lot of silly shows. Now, having said that, those silly shows were the ones I watched. Of course. Because I would go to the set. I would go. His office was at Radford Studios at CBS. And I would go after school, and I wouldn't go see him.

I would go right to the set of Gilligan's Island. That's great. I thought that lagoon was one of the most beautiful things I ever saw in my life. That was nature to me. Then I'd go over to McHale's Navy in Gunsmoke, and I would just wander onto these lots. Those are my favorite shows. Entertaining fantasies of being an actor at that point?

There was. There was a series called, I've looked it up on IMDB and I can barely, I still can't find it, but I'm telling you it existed. And it was called McKeever's Colonels.

And it was about a boy's military school. And McKeever was a kid my age who was like nine or ten. And I would go to the set and I would watch him work going, I can do that. I can do that. I can definitely do that. And I was so competitive with McKeever.

And one day I'm at, I'm in a playground. It's totally empty, the playground. And I'm like playing basketball, you know, and just dribbling to myself. And all of a sudden I see this kid, McKeever, running at breakneck speed across the playground, being chased by about four or five kids. And I went, suddenly I went, oh, my God, I got to protect,

I got to save McKeever. I mean, they're going to hurt him, you know. And McKeever goes and he climbs up this wire fence, you know, this chain link fence. And I'm just watching, you know, there's like my competition but kind of hero, I kind of idolized him and he gets up and he screams down at them he goes I make more money

than all your parents so fuck you that's fantastic I don't I don't think I like this kid how disillusioning it really was it was like my first brush with How disillusioning. It really was.

It was like my first brush with, you know, don't get to know your heroes. Right. Yeah. But it's interesting, too, that your dad, and we were talking before you got here, that he went on to produce good movies. Yeah. Boys in the Band and Pan and needle park but at some point decided that this was a life that that he wasn't cut out for i mean to quote him he said he didn't have the balls yeah somebody like selznick he also uh you know and this is also what he said

um you know he really he really self-destructed you He was a very – he struggled with alcohol and drugs, and he made some terrible decisions and socially. And he never got his groove, really, when he made a real flop movie called Ash Wednesday with Elizabeth Taylor. We were talking about it, yeah. And it was a big flop, and he was drunk and told a disparaging story about sumingers. That ended up in the paper. Even though he told it while he was in Italy, it ended up in the paper even though he told it while he was in Italy it ended up

in the trades and the vice president of Paramo called him up and said when you get home you know it's over

right I mean you're you're over and he went yeah I know I know and it was it never worked again

and and he ended up you, kind of working with like DVD or early, those laser discs, you know, and for RCA, you know, selling in this little crappy office. And it was a real comedown. And ended up going to Oregon because his car broke down. He lost all his money. That's fascinating, too. And then he reinvented himself.

As a writer. As a writer. And became a very, very successful writer. Yeah, very. Yeah. Is that the movie that you made with Margo, Lynn, that we were talking about outside, The Discoverers, it's in Oregon. It is in Oregon.

Not by accident. By total fluke. Oh, okay. I mean, the directors and producer didn't know that. But we ended up shooting where my father's car broke down. It's a great coincidence. Where the cabins were that he lived in exile in for over a year. You'd like this movie, Gilbert, with Griffin and Stuart Margolin,

who I was telling you we had. Yeah, terrific guest. He's a fun guy. But you said that your dad inspired the performance? I thought of him a great deal. Yeah. Yeah, throughout making that, I thought of him a great deal. Good film.

We've discussed After Hours a number of times. We used to do smaller episodes on Thursdays where we'd each pick a movie we loved. And I picked After Hours. And we kept revisiting it because it's just a movie that stays with you. Well, you know that you're Marty's favorite comedian. You must have heard that before. And you could tell by all the Scorsese films. Well, exactly.

Your imprint is on all of them. Did you like my work in... I'm not saying he ain't led to a distance. In Last Temptation of Christ. You were hilarious. No, I happen to know that because Marty chose you to give an award to Bob at Gracie Mansion, and I was there. I went to Gracie Mansion. I forget if it was honoring De Niro or honoring Marty, but you gave the award, and you was there. Yes! I went to Gracie Mansion. I forget if it was honoring De Niro

or honoring Marty, but you gave the award and you were hilarious. And Marty just, you know, you can't hear him when he laughs. And you just, you just, you know, killed him. But I was just thinking of that today in the shower. I remember that

that was years ago I gotta call it the last second that oh they were giving Marty an award was it Marty giving the award

I think because of preserving film that's right that's right something like that and I remember I did this

I did a whole bunch of jokes and then that Koch was the mayor. I was going to say it was Koch, right? Yeah. Yeah. And Koch just comes up afterwards with a completely confused look on his face after I get off and goes, our next guest.

So I'm Scorsese's favorite yeah you think you'd have brought that up that's how that came about yeah he goes you know he was doing it and I think we all went in the car

down to to the award thing he goes I got Gilbert is doing this thing he's the funniest guy he's this funny and he just you know he loves you

wow yeah about that Gil yeah and meanwhile he's a sucker for a Norman Felt reference. Yes, yes. And

meanwhile, during every Scorsese films, I'm doing Mr. Chuckles in Indiana. Sir laughs a lot. Yes. We have Rosanna here, as I told you. But tell me, I don't know the genesis of it.

I don't know how you wound up. I know you and your producing partner, Amy Robinson, wound up producing the film. Yeah. As well as you starring in it. Did you both find Joe Minion's script and bring it to Marty? No, Amy found it. She found it. She was at the very first year of Sundance, not the festival, the workshop,

which was where Redford has his house, and they would develop projects and choose filmmakers, and then they would choose advisors. And I believe Amy was there possibly as an advisor or whatever capacity there was a great Serbian director named Dujan Makavejev

and he had an assistant who worked for him who went to Columbia, he was a Columbia student and he said you should read this script one of my students wrote it he's my assistant but he's a student at the school and you should read it it. One of my students wrote it. He's my assistant, but he's a student at this school, and you should read it. It's pretty good.

And anyway, she called me up and said, I have the greatest part in the world for you. This is like, and I haven't really, I'd only done Werewolf, but. Sure. And, you know, then I read the script, and it just gave me a complete anxiety attack and laughed at the same time.

I had to read it standing up, turning the pages with my big toe, and just would walk away going, oh my God, oh God. And, you know, the first person, because Amy was friendly with, and she was an actress in Mean Streets. Right. He became like the very first person we thought of. The last movie he'd done was King of Comedy, which was totally different in tone, as you know.

But she knew that he was funny. So we gave him the script. He went off to do Last Temptation and couldn't do the movie. So we started working with Tim Burton. Oh, I didn't know that. That's interesting. And then Marty gets fired. They cancel Last Temptation.

He's on his flight back. They cancel Last Temptation. He's on his flight back. They pull the plug on this thing, Paramount. And he's on the flight back from Casablanca or somewhere in Morocco. And there at the top of the pile is After Hours. And he lands. And we all had the same lawyer at the time, a great guy named Jay Julian. And he calls up Jay and goes, what's the story with that?

That's what I want to do. And Tim, at that time, we were only aware of him from a, they showed a comic, or like a cartoon before a movie started, and it was his. And we went, whoever did that is the guy for after hours and we found him and he was in burbank and he was an animator and he had the you know the short sleeve right button up shirt with the pencil pen packs you know with the ink draining through the pocket you know real nerd stuff and but you could tell he was brilliant and um but this would have been his first movie and so we said you know

kookiest thing happened the other day we told you we gave you the script to Marty and you know he's couldn't do it anyway now he wants to do it so anyway we were down the road with you we were just like

we were going to go through with what we were going to do. But he goes, wait, did you say Mr. Scorsese wants to do this movie? Yeah, yeah, but we said, I will not stand in the way of anything he wants to do. I respectfully withdraw. How about that? Yeah. Would have been a different movie. Wildly different.

Wildly different. Yeah. And when Scorsese was directing the actors, I heard you say in an interview that he would bring them a clip of film from different movies and say, I want this scene to be kind of like this scene in this movie.

Yeah. There was like a... He was very inclusive with his thought process. And it was more – it wasn't like saying you have to – I want you to act like that. But he would say this is what influenced me. These are the movies that – it was really like going to film school. I mean all through pre-production, we would either, and movies were on those video cassettes, and we looked at a ton of movies, or we'd look at it in a screening room. What was he showing you?

Tempo? Pace? Tone? Just sort of tone, influence. Oh, tone. Interesting. Hitchcock, Third Man. He wanted it to be nightmarish.

Yeah. Yeah. And then if there was a movie I wasn't aware of and I wasn't there, he'd have an assistant bring down a video cassette, and, you know, I'd watch it on my own time. He'd go, did you see the film? I went, yeah, you know what I'm saying? And it wasn't like that's what I want you to do.

He just wanted you to know. But it was also, you know, I was a young man, and he, I think, I don't think outside of, you know, Alice doesn't live here anymore. I don't think he worked with such a young guy. Sure. You know, age difference-wise from him. So I think he was like, it was my education, too. You know, he wanted me to know all this stuff. And then that

extended to everyone i i've yet to have this experience on a movie where he on the um on the sides or on the and you know on the call sheet that the actors and everyone in the crew would get for every page of dialogue there was another page of all the shot lists, and very elaborate shots, so that everyone knew what the shot was going to be. And they were very elaborate shots, and they'd be simple shots. But he just put everyone from, you know, at every level of, in departments, in the frame of mind. Interesting. What a cast. Yeah. Yeah.

And Rosanna said the same thing that you said, that you would see him out of your peripheral vision shaking with laughter. Yeah, it was a great thing to see. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast, but first a word from our sponsor. One thing Frank and I enjoyed very much was the story of how Scorsese said, he said you shouldn't have sex.

Oh, yes. He wanted, he felt very strongly that there would be a look in my eyes if I went you know a couple of months without any release and he wanted no release and

and then I'm not going to tell you if I honored that or not but but if I slipped, he could tell. So, later when we were promoting the movie, Marty loved Dr. Ruth, Ruth Westheimer. Oh, yeah. Who doesn't? And so he said, of all the interviews that we were doing together, he's the one who asked for her. And he goes, and so he and I are sitting and Dr. Ruth is over there.

We're doing the interview. He goes, so Marty tells me that you did not have sexual release for three months. What was that like? Did you ever have the orgasm when the shooting was over? Did you masturbate? I could have died. I could have fucking died.

You know, it's a rare episode where we get an Otto Preminger and a Dr. Ruth impression. Yeah, it's rare that I where we get an Otto Preminger and a Dr. Ruth impression. Yeah, it's rare that I get a chance to do it. In one show. I always heard that with coaches and athletes. And fighters.

And fighters. We love movies that show New York. I know you're a movie buff, too. Movies like Serpico and the taking of Pelham 123, you get to see real old New York, you know, I mean, I know you're a movie buff too. You know, movies like Serpico and the taking of Pelham 123, you get to see real old New York. Here's old New York in the 80s. Right. That really doesn't exist anymore, especially Soho.

And I heard you say you could lie down and fall asleep in the middle of the streets now. Yeah, absolutely. Nobody would bat an eye. It's like Rodeo Drive now. Yeah. No, I know. But it's all gone. It's all gone.

It's all, you know, people find that hard to believe that there was an area in New York that was so desolate. Yeah, I mean, we were both around then. You lived on St. Mark's Place. Yeah, I lived on Avenue A. Avenue A. Yeah. What years? Oh, my God.

I came from Brooklyn, and then I think it was like in the 70s. Yeah. And I remember when I moved to Avenue A, people were saying, what are you, out of your mind? You're moving, you're living on Avenue A? And B and C during the daytime, you know, that was taking your life in your hands altogether. That was a suicide. That's the only time I've ever been mugged was, I now live in the East Village, three blocks or so from where I was first mugged.

But the first time, and the only time in a sort of serious way, I was mugged. I sort of deserved it. Were you mugged by Gilbert Griffin? Yes. I couldn't take it anymore. He was tough in those days. But I was with a friend, my best friend, and we went to boarding school in the East Coast,

and we were wearing our blazers looking for the Fillmore East at night. And we got lost and went in the other direction. And this kid, who may be a couple years older than us, a good deal bigger, managed to mug us at the same time. When he was holding one, he'd punch the other in the face, and then he'd switch off and punch the other in the face. And we would just get tossed back and forth.

And I remember thinking, I totally deserve this. I mean, I'm looking at my little school blazer. I would mug me. It's in New York that's so gone. I know. And those clubs and Danceteria and the Ritz and all of that, that whole world just vanished. And speaking of that, like, I mean, movies is where we see old New York now. Yeah, yeah.

And you worked with the top New York director. I mean, aside from Scorsese. Lumet. Yes. Yeah, one of our favorites. You know, that was such an incredible learning experience to see him.

And also about New York. By coincidence, having no idea we'd be talking about him, I actually saw over the weekend a documentary about him. So there were all these things I didn't, I'd totally forgotten. The Wiz was shot at the World Trade Center,

at the base of the World Trade Center. It's like I got chills looking at that, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, and when, and Before the Devil Knows You're Dead. That was a good one. Oh, great film. That's a movie made by, that could have been made by a young man. Absolutely.

That's like the Hungry Cone Brothers movie. Yep, yep. You know, and Sidney was in his early 80s when he did that. I mean, that's the most vital, violent. Yep, it's a good one. Oh, my God. They're all good. That's one of those movies I remember I knew nothing about it,

and within the first 10 seconds, I'm hooked. Totally. And it's like you got to see what's going to happen each second. Yeah, absolutely. And I couldn't believe that he directed that at his age. You know, and he was a, which he would talk about too, which I appreciated. You know, he was a kid actor in Yiddish theater. And, you know, as I said, I live in the village. I live right

across the street from, well, the corner was where the Second Avenue Deli used to be. But across the street is I think a movie theater now, but it's like Cinema Village or something. But it used to be one of the great Yiddish theaters. And the building I'm

in is where all the great yiddish playwrights and actors and everyone lived it was like the chateau marmont for for um um yiddish players and um and and cindy would talk in this in this documentary about being a kid in this area in these village and the coffee shops and the bars and the theaters that were around it was just an incredible world of and that's where he got his he came out of theater and East Village and the coffee shops and the bars and the theaters that were around. It was just an incredible world. And that's where he got his, he came out of theater. So when he rehearses and makes a movie, he does something that no one else before or since I've ever seen do.

It's also on a live television. He gets the exact dimensions of what the set's going to be. He puts down tape in an open rehearsal space, and you rehearse with the actors for like two weeks. So by the time you're shooting, everybody's off book, and it's one, no more than two takes. Ron Silver once said, Sidney, I can do this in less than a take. He just needed, you know, everybody was so totally prepared.

So in Running on Empty, what a lot of people think is the best scene, the most sort of emotional when Christine Lottie sees her father while he's underground, while she's been underground

all this time. They did that scene in one take. About that? They had two cameras. They filmed it. Maybe two. But he was like, they got it in one. And everyone knew, when you read the script,

here we come on this scene. Here we come. And it was like one of those things where everybody was so excited for the scene to play that, you know, people, the crew was more attentive than normal. You know, and people came to just watch quietly. And it was over. About that. It was over before it began. Yeah.

And I remember they always used to say the real star of a Scorsese film is New York. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You could say that about a lot of Lumet pictures. Yeah, for sure. Gilbert likes Bye Bye Braverman, which we've talked about, which is one of the lesser known Lumet entries. That's right. I know. I saw that.

Pawnbroker. You go back and you look at that body of work. Oh, and Prince of the City. Prince of the City was just amazing. Just great. You should have Treat in the show, by the way. The what? Treat Williams. We should have. Oh, yes, yes.

Here in New York? We should. He is between New York and... We should have him. I think he's shooting. But he's here a lot. We should have him. That's a favorite of Gilbert's, too.

Yeah. Oh. Yeah. I love that movie. Yeah, me too. Yeah. These are movies that come on and you can't... I've heard you describe Strange Love and Ace in the Hole as movies like that.

Like you're going to be late for dinner if they're on. You're going to be late for dinner. But I think that's true of a lot of those Lumet pictures. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And even Q&A. I mean, ones that people don't talk about as much. Look at how he got Nick Nolte to give one of the bravest goddamn performances ever.

Yeah. Give one of the bravest goddamn performances ever. Yeah. Yeah. And we've talked about it, and it's a movie that they use that term ahead of its time with so many movies, but really is ahead of its time, is Ace in the Hole. Yeah. Yeah. that whole idea, you know, you take tragedy or a big news story and the press, you know, makes it into a big publicity. And they perversely, they can't help it,

they want that kid to be dead. Yes. It'll pay for the paper, you know. It's just like, and you're down there and you're pretending you're, you give a shit. And, you know, it's just all newsmen just vying. And it really is like that. I mean, when I saw the movie, I never, it's not a very well-known movie, Wilders.

And I forget how I came across it. It was some time ago. And it took my breath away how cynical it was. And also funny. It's kind of my sense of humor. And then years go by. That's how I know that this is the case. My mother lived in Nogales.

It's right on the border of Mexico. She was raised there, and she went there for the end of her life. And my brother was staying with her, and he went for a hike. And it's a very rugged country, and he went to this national park, and he climbed a mountain,

and he disappeared. Disappeared for, turned up for five days. and it became a huge media event wow because of the my dad was covering the oj trial and it was during that time and judge ito would say we know mr dunn is um we wish him the best we know his son is missing and um and what happened was i mean I flew out the minute it happened, before the press arrived, and matter of fact, the guy we were with, my friend Charlie Wessler, hired the pilot who was the helicopter pilot

who did the OJ chase, so we had this guy flying over the terrain where Alex would have been. And then we saw his car in the parking lot. And the moment we called that in, news trucks, these special units for the police, these enormous RVs, communication centers, mules, RVs, communication centers, mules, dogs, everything just started to come into this one, under this parking lot in the middle of nowhere. And then crowds, the looky-loos and the thing. And it just built and built and built. And it was like, I just kept going, ace in the hole.

It was exactly like Ace in the Hole. How strange. Life is imitating art. Also, the movie was also released as The Big Carnival. Yeah, they changed the title. Oh, that's right. That's right. And, of course, in the movie, it's so strange.

It's like a carnival is built around the area where the sky, a coal miner, is being, is dying in the mountain. And it's like, they're making money, they're selling shirts. And Wilder was a reporter, so he knew that world.

He knew what he was writing about. And it was a very unpopular film, as I remember hearing, that people actually just hated it because

it was just so ugly for them to see it was like people go why did you make that movie you know and Kurt Douglas is a scumbag

in it a total scumbag yeah I think he produced it too I think he did he liked playing those parts yeah played the bad and the beautiful

he played the oh my god I think he was attracted to those kind of anti-heroes great movie yeah and I just reminds me of a story I think he was attracted to those kind of anti-heroes. Yes, it was a great movie. And it just reminds me of a story.

I think I was doing an interview for like CNN or something, and they said, oh, we don't know if we can get to you yet because there's a plane. The news story, there's a plane that's out of control in the sky. They said they don't know if the pilot died, but the plane is moving erratically in the sky they said they don't know if the the pilot died but the plane is moving erratically in the sky and so i'm waiting there backstage and they keep going no is still following the story of the plane and then this woman runs backstage excited and she goes, great news, the plane crashed. Unbelievable.

I actually remember that. They became overcome by some sort of fumes. Yes. And it was a jet, a private jet, and it just flew until it ran out of good news. Yeah. Sometimes wilder cynicism worked. Yeah. Like the mix was right in things like Sunset Boulevard.

Oh, absolutely. And other times, like in Kiss Me Stupid, audiences rejected it. They rejected it, yeah. That he went too far. Okay, well, I have to get to the thing I brought up with a million guests so far. Oh, prepare yourself for this, Griffin. Okay. This is his theory about Billy Wilder. Okay.

Okay. This is his theory about Billy Wilder. Okay. You may not be Scorsese's favorite comedian after this. Billy Wilder, you know, he also directed, of course, Sunset Boulevard. Right. Where Gloria Swanson's the old, old, you know, silent screen Hollywood star. the old, old, you know, silent screen Hollywood star. And at the beginning starts off with a funeral for a chimpanzee.

And they said that the direction that Wilder gave to Gloria Swanson was, remember, you are fucking the chimpanzee. And according to this discussion I had with, of all people, Jackie the Joke Man. So it must be true. We've discussed it several times. There's a story that rich women back then used to have trained chimpanzees to perform carnalingus on them. Widows, I would imagine. Yes, yeah. Well, I'd hate for their husbands to be having to wait in the yard. But it does make sense why the chimp had such an emotional impact.

Yes. Yeah, why would she be? Well, it could have just been an attachment to a pet, Gilbert. No. No, there had to have been a chemistry that was unspoken. A love that has no name. Unspoken. A love that has no name.

He had an expression, Billy Wilder, whenever he saw someone who looked like they were really in the dumps, he used to go, what's the matter? You look like you just saw your rough cut. Oh, that's funny. Oh, wow. And Wilder was one of those people at the house when you were a kid, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Him I did get to know as an adult. Oh, that's funny. Oh, wow. And Wilder was one of those people at the house when you were a kid, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Him I did get to know as an adult.

Oh, that's cool. Thank God, yeah. And loved him. Wow. He was funny, as we all know. He was still showing up for work every day. He'd go to that office in Beverly Hills in his 80s, in his 90s. Absolutely.

He was right around the corner from Mr. Chow's, and he'd have lunch at Mr. Chow's every day. Absolutely. It was right around the corner from Mr. Chow's, and he'd have lunch at Mr. Chow's every day. And he would say, you know, no one comes to see me. I mean, don't give me any awards. Give me a job, you know. And he was kind of taking it back, except for people like Cameron Crowe. Sure.

It's a great book. Very few people, you know, like, took advantage of him. You know, there was a great I'm having a moment here, a brain moment. The editor of Bonnie and Clyde and oh, shit, I can think of

Thelma Schumacher, but that's not it. Not Verna Fields. No, shit. I can think of Thelma Schumacher, but that's not it. Not Verna Fields. No, no. A woman or a man? Woman. Woman. Elderly woman. She won the Academy Award twice.

Oh, I should know this. I should, too. Because, anyway, she was given an honorary position to be the advisor at Warner Brothers. And Dina, what the hell is the matter? Anyway, at the time, of course, I knew her name because she was so damn famous. We'll have our researchers. Please, thank you. We're working on it. Our crack team is working on it.

And she, anyway, I called her up when I did the very first movie. Dee Dee Allen. Thank you. Oh, my brain. Also, Red. Killing me. She edited Red's. Look at that.

Zonya is the internet magician. Nice work, Zonya. Thank you, baby. Thank you. And Paul is taking a nap. Our researcher dozed. Yeah, there you go. But anyway, I call her up, and I said, Miss Allen, my name's Griffin Dunn.

I'm about to direct my first feature film for Warner Brothers, and I understand you're on the lot. And I just want to know when I'm ready, I'd love you to be one of the first people to ever see my rough cut. She goes, what's your name? I went, Griffin Dunn. She goes, you know, I've been here for over a year. You're the first director to ever call me. I went, well, I don't know what to tell you. And when I got my rough cut, I indeed did.

She flew to New York and stayed in the editing room with us. And, you know, it was just such an incredible honor to have her be so jazzed. And at that time, I used to edit at night, and that was my editor, Beth Kling. We finally fixed this problem, and it was around four in the morning, this problem that had been haunting us throughout the thing.

And she said, should we call Dina? Didi? Should we call? It's four in the morning. Yeah, that's a terrible idea. Let's call her. And I said, yeah, we fixed the thing in a real four. She goes, I'll be right over.

And the hotel was like two blocks from the borough building where we were cutting. And she was that kind of a person. That's great. That's great. That's great. I'm glad you brought up Addicted to Love. Did you, you had worked with Pollack, you had worked with Lumet. Were you picking up a little bit from all of these guys? Because obviously you have a taste for the black comedy.

Yeah, yeah. Which is in your work. Yeah, I do. And I was, you know, kind of, there was something to learn from everyone. And Marty, obviously. Well, yeah, I mean, certainly Marty. And I kind of always thought when I was producing with these extraordinary directors, even though I was there at the very, very beginning and responsible for actually the script that they signed on to do for finding it or developing it, I always thought directing would be such an overwhelming achievement.

I could never possibly do it. But when it actually came my turn sort of in life, I've never felt more comfortable in my whole life, you know, in a profession. So, you know, I would nap during lunch because I remember I saw that's how Sidney gets his, I'd never eat lunch. I'd just go to my trailer and sleep for a half hour, be totally, so I took that from him and the kind of unpredictability of Marty, I would borrow from that. You know, Sidney would talk about how if you're not quite sure what you're doing, how you could stall. I never did this trick, but I always loved this story.

When he wasn't sure what the first shot of the morning should be, he needed time to think. He would point to where all the trucks had parked and go, we're going to be looking that way. Because then they'd have to move all the trucks, which would take at least an hour. Very smart. So there was all these little tricks, you know, all these things. Yeah. We had Matthew here, by the way. We had Broderick here.

Gilbert insulted him. Yes. Because I fucking hate Ferris Bueller's day off. Yeah. Gilbert insulted him. Yes, because I fucking hate Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Yeah. Wow. He was a sporty role to it. Yeah, I like Matthew, and I think he's a good actor. I've never heard of such a thing.

But I fucking hate Ferris Bueller's Day Off. We just saw it on the plane. We looked at it again. And I was watching, and Sonia was looking at it with the headphones. Just, we looked at it again. And I was watching and Sonia was looking at it without, with the headphones.

I was looking at it without. I didn't even need it. I'd seen the movie so many times. I knew the dialogue. What do you hate about Ferris Bueller's

And the guy's a little prick. You thought he should have gone to school. You thought he lied. No, I thought

he should have gotten his ass kicked. I don't think it's You thought he lied. No, I thought he should have gotten his ass kicked. I don't think it's the filmmaking he takes issue with, but the character. Yeah, no, I know. This is like the goody-goody critic. Like, oh, no, he shouldn't have done that. But it's like when you watch the movie. The biggest villain's the principal.

And what's he doing? He's saying, oh, there's a kid who's constantly playing hooky, and I have to do something about it. He's a heroic figure. And Ferris Bueller's a fucking prick.

Wow. And I hope you're listening to this, Matthew. Thank God. He was so gracious about it He was He was very nice You should do the remake And just have it be about the principal

Him going home to his wife And he's such a good husband Two movies, black comedies Election Speaking of Matthew, and your picture, which is really, and this,

we'll talk about American Werewolf in a minute, but I found parallels because you said a lot of films, critics don't know what to make of a film

that's trying to be two things at once. That's trying to be funny and that's trying to be dark. Addicted to love, by the way, my hat's off to you because this is dark, a studio picture as anybody's attempted to make.

The darkest romantic comedy you could do. I love Meg's performance, too. They're both so great. Both good. In preparation for that role, here you have the goddess of romantic comedies in this role that kind of flips it on its head. And she read books like the darkest books about – Schrenker was a concentration camp survivor. Oh, I know him. Bruno Bettelheim?

Yes. She would read really heavy, heavy shit. And just to get the darkness in her face. Method. Yeah, it was good. It was good. It's a good movie. And you mentioned Werewolf. That was...

That it was critically panned by the majority of papers because how dare it be two things. I went there to be scared. I don't want to be laughing. Yeah, that's what I mean. You know, and, well, I'm sorry you made your laugh, but, you know, and it was a great tone. But you're attracted to that. You're attracted to that kind of subject matter. Oh, yeah.

And After Hours is another example. Yeah. Funny and really frightening. Yeah, I know. Genuinely. Genuine menace. People in peril and people in pain are pretty funny. I don't see why everybody doesn't get that.

Yeah. And one person who we'd like to have on this show, if he's listening, and you worked with him is the uh great makeup artist rick baker yeah yeah he'd be a great guest to have and uh we uh frank and i were talking about it that you are you are like a living corpse throughout the movie and and you keep, each time you pop up, you're more and more decomposing, and that this was very upsetting for you. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what it was.

When I first had the makeup on, I don't know what I expected, but looking in the mirror and seeing what I would look like if I was, you know, violently murdered. It just had a really emotional thing for me. I don't know what it was. I remember thinking, I hope my mother doesn't see this. You know, it was like, I didn't have like a sort of sense of humor having just established I've got a dark sense of humor. for some reason I didn't about this.

Interesting. And, you know, when we were shooting in London in Trafalgar Square, I had to walk from the hotel to the movie theater. And, you know, before then, people would, on the crew and different things, when I was in the makeup, we were shooting at Twickenham, they wanted me to go into a bar in one of the pubs and just order a drink and just freak people out and I wouldn't do it. And I just thought it would be kind of cruel.

But walking from the hotel to the movie theater throughout this crowd of people, you know, it was like people were really freaked out. I can imagine. And I didn't, I didn't enjoy it. I didn't enjoy, like, freaking people out. I mean, it's exactly the opposite of, like, how you're supposed to be about Halloween. You're supposed to walk around and shock people and all. don't know what and it was it's never been my and to this i'm not really a horror movie fan to tell you the truth um i did not enjoy um scaring repulse repulting revolting other people or whatever it was uh i don't know. Why do you think people don't, or studios,

you know the movie business, why are these kind of, for lack of a better word, black comedies, dark comedies, why are they so hard to do? Why are they so hard to pull off? I know you're also a fan of Strangelove, which is obviously one of the granddaddies of that. I think walking that line is really,

really tough for a lot of people. People either – when it's not done successfully, it's usually the director or the actors sort of give a little nod to – a little wink to the camera, you know, whether they mean to or not. Like, I'm kind of funny here, aren't I, seeing how serious I am? And it's not really played straight. There have been so many movies that people say, oh, it's just after hours, we just, you know, after hours almost become an adjective for a kind of movie.

And, you know, if it's not done right, it's like too outrageous. You know, the circumstances are too over the top. So you kind of don't buy it. And it's missing an element of anxiety. You still have to be anxious and the laughter still has to be a release. And if it's just laughter for dark circumstances, you've already shot your wad in the first 15 minutes. It's interesting. And you've got nowhere to go.

I think about movies of the 70s. I think about things like Where's Papa? I guess that was the 60s. And even some— Harold and Maude. Harold and Maude. I mean, they don't really attempt them anymore. Maybe Election, which was more of an indie or off the studio path a little bit.

After Hours, same thing. You don't see them. Those two movies, like Harold and Maude and Westpapa, are in that category. And you've discussed this, the category of films called the cult film. And I heard you don't really like when one of your films, you've been in a few that have been called cult films. Yeah. And you don't like it. I don't.

You know, there's a book that three movies that Amy and I have produced or I've been in. And the really cute little title of this book is The Best Movies You've Never Heard Of. I don't want to be in that book. Is Once Around in that book? Yeah, I think everything I've ever done is in that book. That's a good movie. No, hats off to you and Amy for that one. And maybe it's you, which we discussed with Rosanna,

which people have to see. Absolutely. I know it ran into music rights issues, but it's so good. It's so good. You guys were young. I heard you talking to Eliana on her podcast. You said, we didn't even know what we were doing, the chilly scenes of winter.

We went and chased down Ann Beattie wherever she was on campus somewhere. Good movies. You guys had an absolute instinct for picking things. up somewhere. Good movies. You guys had an absolute instinct for picking things. They should be films people know not to appear in that book. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast after this.

All right, here's one I want to ask you about. Where is the question that I had? This is an American Werewolf question, too, about the makeup, because Gilbert loves Rick Baker. At one point, you just sort of pulled it off your face, and you said you looked at Rick, and he was going to cry? Yeah, it was a bad moment. You know, it took, I had to be on the set for, like,

at 4 in the morning with Rick. Luckily, we adored each other. So the company you keep in those times is very important. And then it would start at four in the morning for me to be on set by, you know, nine o'clock or something. You know, it would just take forever to put on. And you'd have to be very, very patient in Zen. David, too. Both of you. Yeah, but he only had to do the transformation.

Right. I was an everyday thing. And when the transformation was no small potatoes either. But, you know, we would also, I think the methods have improved since then. But the stuff that they glued on my face, the acrylic or whatever it was, under the lights would shrink and pull on your skin. And it would really be uncomfortable. And then Rick would have to, like, come in and moisturize it up

and loosen it up so I could breathe, so the skin could breathe and all that stuff. So after a 14-hour day, you know, I was in – it was, like, painful. You know, it was, like, somewhere between incredible discomfort and pain. And when we wrapped this one day, it was particularly tough. Usually you take it off, Rick, so we'd have all the pieces, and it was all under with spearmint gum,

and he'd have like a little brush, and he'd just scrape, scrape, scrape, scrape, scrape, scrape. And it would take almost as long as it took to put it on. It would take so long just to get all the glue off and to come out in one piece. And one day I just couldn't take it anymore. And I just grabbed the thing and I ripped it off my face. And it felt so good to get it off until I saw Rick's face. And it was really like, you know, I took a dump on the Mona Lisa. You destroyed a great work.

It was that look, and I swear I'd never do it again. Wow. I would imagine they've improved this kind of makeup. Oh, apparently it's a completely different matter. We're going to get him on the show. We'll ask his point of view. That makes me think, I can only imagine in the classic horror movies

that I was in love with, like with Karloff and Chaney and Lugosi, it's like, what that makeup must have been. Because that was really primitive. Yeah, you know. Or tortured. Yeah. The Frankenstein thing. I mean, that nearly killed him. Yeah.

You know, it would like, it discolored his skin. And, you know and the pores, they couldn't breathe and it would take twice as long. It must have been incredible. Oh, you think back to The Wizard of Oz and Buddy Epson having died from that metallic to the dust

and the makeup. I want to recommend too to our listeners to watch the American Werewolf in London commentary with you and David. Yeah. Which is so much fun. And I hadn't seen the movie in years. It's so much fun to revisit it.

I mean, it really creates a world. And you were a kid. Yeah. Yeah, I sure was. One of your first things. And most importantly, Jenny Agater. Oh, lovely. Was one of those actresses that didn't mind getting naked for movies.

No. Yeah, so I'm... Getting your kid on. So she's one of my favorites. I know, I love her. Love her, love her. She was great. We have to just...

These are wild cards. Can we ask you one thing about Me and Him, the Talking Penis movie? Which, by the way, is hard to find. Thank God! The weirdest career choice in history. Yeah.

You're a chance taker, Griffin. Very bold. You're a chance taker Griffin very bold you're a risk taker very very bold and I knew first of all it's based on a very on Italy's most famous

writer he also wrote the conformist you know one of the great Bertolucci movies. Very difficult subject matter. So it was a serious, serious material about a man who talks to his penis. I get it. I get it. Directed by Doris Dory, who was very hot off a film called Men.

So there was a certain logic. I knew it was a little risky. There was a certain logic. I knew it was a little risky. But I remember driving to the set of Running on Empty. And I'm on the George Washington Bridge. And it had just been announced about the movie and what it is. And I'm listening to Howard Stern.

And all of a sudden, I'm driving on the thing on the bridge and he goes Griffin Dunn is doing a movie called Me and Him about a guy who talks to his penis who wants to see Griffin Dunn's penis first of all

it's gotta be really really small it's gotta be and he starts putting down my penis and I I almost lose control of the car

and I went oh this is only the beginning And I almost lose control of the car. And I went, oh, this is only the beginning. Gilbert was not on that particular episode of Howard Stern Show. He would have ganged up on you. So you heard the Irwin Winkler episode. You know that Gilbert likes to ask about the flops. So just one question about who's that girl. Yeah.

Which, by the way, I did some research. You got excellent notices. Everybody loved me. New York Times loved you. Yeah. Chicago Trib loved you. Do you remember any of the horrible,

horrible reviews of Who's That Girl? I really, I remember just that I got good reviews. Very good. Vincent Candy said you were the best thing in it. Yeah, I know.

I got a lot of that. So I thought, I think it's time to make a movie about a guy who talks to his penis. Let me take all that goodwill and run with it. I'm friendly with the guy that wrote that original script, which was called Slammer. A guy named Andrew Smith. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He used to work at The View.

Oh, really? Before me. Small world. But he wrote, and he wrote the main event, the Streisand picture. Oh, right. So he wrote, he dabbled in screenwriting. But that thing went through a lot of changes. I know, I heard you say what you remember was the paparazzi, was how famous she was.

Yeah. And the chaos. Total chaos. I mean, we'd have to reloop scenes just because helicopters, you know, when we were shooting outdoors, you know, drowned out our dialogue. It was like we were shooting in front of Trump Tower on the day of the marathon. Okay. Trump Tower on the day of the marathon. And the guy who the building is named after, this star fucker, oh, he's the president now, actually.

He came down because he heard Madonna was there to have his picture taken with Madonna and me. Not that he knew who I was. But there's a picture of him. So he's there and the marathon

is near, the finish line is not far away. And the word must have gotten around the runners that Madonna was shooting. And people, they've only got like 500 yards at the finish line.

They stop running, and they come over to watch the shooting, drenched in sweat, like that kind of crazy look in their eye. And I was thinking, just finish the race. You just ran 24 miles. Finish the race and then come back and watch. But it was that kind of like zealotry that was wherever she'd go. You just blow off the finish line with the hope of seeing her. I watched the movie. I do very, very deep research, as you can see.

I see. Did you learn defense? This is like being on 60 Minutes. Did you learn to work with a sword? Yes, I worked with one of the great swordsmen in Hollywood at the time. He was for my nose. Oh, Cyrano. Cyrano.

He was Miguel Ferrer's father is how I know him. Jose. Jose. Yes. He was Jose's coach. He did a lot of the great movies at the time. I could tell. Yes.

You were quite good at it. I loved it. Okay, wild cards. Do you want to tell us, first of all, as I was saying to you outside, we have to recommend the doc that you made about your aunt. Yes. Which we had in the intro, which is just lovely. Thank you.

And, I mean, it's fascinating on so many levels. I mean, her connection to the Donner party that it opens with. She wrote that story when she was five years old or something about the woman who dies in the desert. It's a fascinating movie. And you and Joan are the last of the Mohicans in this dynasty. Yeah, in the family, yeah.

Really worth seeing. Oh, thanks. I'm very proud of it. You should be. And she liked it a lot, too. It was really nice to see how it affected people so deeply. People who didn't know her books kind of went out and got her books. And people who did, it just filled in all the information they were already hungry to know.

So I was really glad at how it turned out. Yeah, and interesting, it's full of surprises, like how that dialogue in that John Wayne movie affected her her whole life. Just a very interesting person. And she wound up becoming, you know, she cataloged this big period of time. Yeah, absolutely. I was thinking of that when I was looking at the HBO How They See Us about Central Park Five. I haven't seen it yet, but

she was involved in that, obviously. And she wrote one of the defining pieces about the media. Yeah. And about the city. It's a great story about New York City at that time. And that cast an enormous amount of doubt on this. Rather heroically, I might say, because it was not.

And a lone voice. Yes, that's what I mean. If you remember that time period, there was really not a lot of people running around saying, I think those kids are innocent. It's a very sweet film, and people need to see it. And the documentary about your dad after the party, which I know you didn't make, is fascinating. A fascinating life. Do you want to ask Griffin about the first movie he saw in a movie theater? I was

just going to ask that. Because it's your favorite. Oh, fuck. I was just going to ask that. Tell us the first movie you saw in a theater. I can tell you, but I can't tell you who's in it and I can tell you the scene that I remember, but I don't tell you who's in it, and I can tell you the scene that I remember, but I don't know the

title. We can do it. It was a Jerry Lewis movie. No, no, that's why I bring it up. And it's a he put an entire pack of cigarettes in his mouth and smoked the cigarettes in the whole pack. And I must have been around five or something.

I fell down laughing so hard. I thought it was the funniest thing I ever saw. And for some reason, I want to think he's in a space... He's in a space capsule. There was that one... Oh, God. You know it, Gil.

Oh, there was that one he did with Dick Shawn. No, it's not Way, Way Out. No, not Way, Way Out. It's the one based on the Gore Vidal story. Oh, a little visit to a little planet? A small planet. Visit to a small planet. That's based on a Gore Vidal story?

Can you believe that? Yes. Jesus. Yes. That, I didn't know. I know, that's a head-turner. Yeah, so that's a movie. It was basically like the original Mark and Mindy, where he learns about the Earth.

That's right. So he was like a Martian and that's why he was smoking cigarettes because that's what he thought. Yeah. Got it. But then Griffin

met him later in life and he wasn't very nice to him. Oh, surprise, surprise. I don't mean to devastate you. Yeah. Because he was always nice to Gil. See, Jerry Lewis

is one of those people I can use the classic line. Well, he was always nice to me. I bet he loved you. Before we get out of here, what do you want to plug? I mean, there's so much good stuff, and you're in all kinds. I heard you say something about how independent film isn't what it used to be, and making independent films kind of breaks your heart,

and now a lot of that is in television. Yeah, exactly. And you're in all these hit shows, all these smart shows, Romanoff's and Succession and Pamela Adlon's show. Yeah, I'm actually doing now oddly a network show which I haven't done in a

very long time but it's an incredible part that kind of came my way to be in a family member in This Is Us. Yes. And I'm playing, for those of you who can't see what I look like, I look about 30, 31. He does. But I'm playing a guy who's, I played 75 in one section, 80s in the other. Yeah.

It's another makeup gig. It's all right. Well, the 70s is not enough makeup. But for later, yeah. So anyway, I'm doing that. I'm going to leave for L.A. to start shooting that at the end of July. And you're in the new Wes Anderson. Yes.

And that's great. That was the most fun ever. Wow. Yes. And that's great. That was the most fun ever. Wow. And here's something I brought up. We've discussed a few times on this show. Like today, on the way over here, I was on the Upper East Side, and I saw a movie marquee. And I remember thinking, a movie theater, what's that?

Yeah, yeah. I feel like that's like vaudeville movie theater. Watch that. Yeah, yeah. I feel like that's... On the way out. That's like vaudeville movie theaters. I know, incredible. You know the Upper East Side at all? I do.

Near me, since I moved back here from L.A. in 2003, which isn't that long ago, I've watched, I think, six theaters shut down? Shut down, no, I know. 86th Street Theater

just shut down. Did it really? The one between 3rd... I know just the one you mean. ...and 2nd Avenue. Wasn't that like, that had a bunch of theaters? Yeah, it was a fourplex. Gone.

Oh, what a bummer. They're disappearing at a record rate. Wow. I just went to a movie theater, and I realized how long it had been. This weekend, we went to see The Dead Don't die at a uh movie theater and i have a house in upstate new york and there's a little movie theater up there and it was so nice to like sit and watch a movie with a bunch of strangers and i thought how weird especially a comedy like something i'm noticing yeah you know yeah um that we just took for granted. You think it's on the way out? Or we're just tentpole movies?

I think, you know, it's hard to say. I certainly hope not. But, you know, entertainment has been confronted with so many tragedies and crises from, you know, the birth of television is going to ruin the movies and talkies are going to ruin the silence. I mean, it was like it's constantly evolving as technology evolves, as audiences evolve. It's hard to say.

I think people will always still be drawn to the humanity aspect. I hope so. But the idea of growing up and going, hey, we're sitting around, let's see a movie. I think that's gone. You grew up in Brooklyn, right? Yeah. Neighborhood theaters. I grew up in Ozone Park in Queens. Yes. Double features, I remember.

Right, right. Yeah. I used to go see the Planet of the Apes movies five in a day. Yeah. In succession. In the old Cross Bay Theater in Queens, which is now a Modell's. A lot of that is disappearing. Yeah. And from Manhattan, too.

No, I didn't know about 86th Street. What a bummer. It's gone. Yeah. All right. All right. What else do you want to plug? I plugged.

I'm all plugged up. I want to tell people to see this I Love Dick. Oh, yes. On Amazon. That you can see. You can see that for the rest of your life. That's hilarious. Yeah.

Yeah. That sounds like the name of the Talking Penis movie. I'm just saying they're not related. I still have such PTSD from making the Talking Penis movie that I called... I couldn't really say the name of the series once it was going, so I would call it I'm Terribly Fond of Richard. Great actors, boy. Yeah, I know. It was a gas.

You and Bacon. I loved it. And Catherine Hans. The three of us had so much fun. Brave performances, all of you. Incredible. I'm just going to tell people, if our listeners haven't seen After Hours by this point in the show, almost 200 episodes in,

a shame on you. But see, baby, it's you. Griffin's movie, Addicted to Love, the documentary, the Joan Didion documentary, which is great. We didn't even talk about Practical Magic. I suspect you're a Harry Nielsen fan. I certainly am. Yes.

I wanted them to be dancing to that one. Yeah, and Panic in Needle Park, which is another family project. Yeah, that my dad produced and aunt and uncle wrote. Yeah, people need to see this stuff. You need to write a book, my friend. Alright, well, this is good practice.

And people need to read up on the cunnilingus chimpanzees in old Hollywood. You're going to get to the bottom of that. And you work with a monkey in Addicted to Love. Yeah. Let me tell you one quick thing about that monkey. Yeah. I was. That's terrifying.

The Hot Zone. You remember that movie? Sure. So here we have movie stars in Addicted to Love. It's the first day of shooting. You'd think we'd all be. Everyone was so excited because we got the monkey from the Hot Zone. And it was like, there's the monkey, and the monkey is there.

And we're all catering to the monkey. We're so excited. First take of my first feature. Action. The monkey was supposed to jump from one shoulder onto somebody else's shoulder. The monkey jumps onto the shoulder, jumps off the shoulder, runs up Fifth Avenue. Oh, my God. We stopped shooting for two hours.

They got a fire truck to take that fucking monkey out of, on 34th Street and bring him back to the set. I hate that monkey. That actor's terrific, by the way, that Turkish actor whose name escapes me.

Oh, yeah, Chucky Carey. Really funny. One of the greats. Good movie. Gil, man has a life he's got to get back to.

Okay, so you're going to be doing a sequel to the Talking Dick movie about a cunnilingus monkey. Okay. That's my next project. Anyway, this has been Gilbert. Yeah, I'm Gilbert Gottfried. Are you sure? Yeah, I'm Gilbert Gottfried, and I can't get a fucking ticket to a Martin Scorsese movie. So fuck you, Martin Scorsese. Come here and suck my dick.

Come here and talk to my dick. Okay? Talk to my fucking cock, Martin Scorsese. That just may get him here. Yes! And we've been and I've been sitting here with Frank Santopadre, who has

spoken to my dick a few times. No trade secrets. Yes! And we've been talking to the great Griffin Dunn. Griffin, thanks, man. Well, thank you. This was a guess. Take your life Yeah, the bad moon's on the rise Oh, right

Hope you got your things together Hope you are quite prepared to die Looks like we're in for nasty weather One eye is taking for an eye Well, don't come around tonight It's bound to take your life There's a bad moon on the rise Don't come around tonight It's bound to take your life There's a bad moon on your right