Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Jeff Abraham and Burt Kearns Encore

Episode Date: September 2, 2024

GGACP looks back at an entertaining (and educational!) episode from Sept 2, 2019 with this ENCORE presentation of an interview with author-historian Jeff Abraham and filmmaker Burt Kearns about their book, "The Show Won't Go On." In this episode, Jeff and Burt share fascinating backstories on the untimely (and unusual) passings of Dick Shawn, Joe E. Ross, Al Kelly, Parkyakarkus and Karl Wallenda (among others). Also, Moe Howard wears a dress, Burt Reynolds gets a paint job, Sid Caesar packs heat and Paul Anka tears down Wayne Newton. PLUS: Carmen Miranda's final bow! The poetry of Buddy Hackett! The history of the "bullet catch"! The strange death of Washington Irving Bishop! And Jeff and Burt attend the Jerry Lewis auction! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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It's so gentle. We've never smelled so good. Shop Old Spice Total Body Deodorant now. Hey, hey Moe, you are listening to Gilbert Gottfried's colossal terrific podcast. Why don't you say mammy? Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried and this is Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast with my co-host Frank Santopadri. And our guest this week are… 1. Jeff Abraham is one of America's foremost comedy historians and a go-to pop culture

expert for TV producers, documentary filmmakers and authors. As a senior account executive at Jonas Public Relations, he's repped some of the top names in comedy, including Andrew Dice Clay, Steve Harvey, George Lopez, Bill Maher, and for the last 11 years of his life, George Carlin. He's also the owner and curator of the largest comedy album archive in Hollywood, and has served as a consultant on documentaries and TV specials including Make Em Laugh for PBS, Comedy Central's world's 100 greatest stand ups of all time, Cinemax, Let Me In, I Hear Laughter, A Salute to the Friars Club, and Encore's Method in the Madness of Jerry Lewis. He is also on the board of the National Com... Method to the madness, but good enough. Ah, whatever.

It's Jerry Lewis. Yeah. And National Comedy Center is... he's on the board of the National Comedy, Flogish and Havenboggle, and is the author of an upcoming authorized biography of the Ritz brothers. And he was once reamed out by Paul Anka. Reamed out by Paul Anka. Burt Kearns is an award-winning producer, director, writer, journalist, and author of the controversial book Tabloid Baby about his role in the development of tabloid television. He's written and produced the nonfiction series Conspiracy Theory with Jesse Van Tora, all the President's movies with Martin Sheen, and the secret history

of Rock and Roll with Gene Simmons. He's also produced the comedy, Hi There, and the documentary, Death of a Beetle, and Bin Laden's Escape. That was a comedy. I missed that one. And I Kip up. And fuck it, I wanna go home. And-and directed and produced

the non-fiction films The Chris Montez Story Basketball Man. And the award... Ah, fuck it all! Just get me out of here, please! The mon- Don't die on us. Just get me out of here, please! The seventh python! Don't die on us.

The seventh python! See, if I would have died on you before, I could have gotten in the book. It's never too late. My timing is... The night is young. He worked with everyone from Burt Reynolds to Cher to Robert Duvall and he was once cursed out by Buddy Hackett. Their brand new book is called The Show Won't Go On, the most shocking shocking bizarre and historic deaths of performers on stage

welcome to the podcast Jeff Abraham and Bert Kearns Wow found dead in their West Hollywood apartment. That's the one that they like. They wanted you to add the found dead in the rest of it. Welcome boys. Thank you. Great to be here. First of all, thank you, Gilbert, for giving us a quote for the book. We appreciate that. Thank you so much. You gave them a quote for the book. Yes. I don't remember what it was, but I'm sure it was good. I'm going to read it. We know that nobody knows what it's like to die on stage like Gilbert. Yes. Now this, this book definitely teaches you one thing and that's that if you're desperately in the moment in need of medical help, being on stage is the worst place because everyone's

going to start laughing and applauding when you're gasping for your last breath. That's true. That happens a lot, especially the poor woman who dropped dead after singing, please don't talk about me when I'm gone. Yeah, that's a good one. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

That's a good one. Well, what was the Cavett thing? When Rodale was, when Dick Cavett realized that, not pal, what was the, the Cabot thing, uh, when, when, when Rodeale was, when, when Dick Cabot, uh, realized that our pal, Dick Cabot realized Rodeal was in trouble, he purposely did not say, is there a doctor in the house? No, because it, right.

There was that pregnant pause. He was thinking, if I say this, the entire audience will think it's a joke. So he actually had to think for a second, what should I say? It's, it was tragic beyond words. Yeah. Yep.

The book is fascinating for so many. Gilbert and I were discussing it and we were just talking about before you guys sat down, the way we were talking about both the guy that was buried in cement, Joe. What was the amazing Joe and we Gilbert is fascinated by the one-armed lion tamer. Yeah. You figure if you're a one-armed lion tamer, isn't it pretty much time to quit and don't get drunk before you walk in on a lion.

Yes. You did as well. Yes. I yeah in the book they say that the guy was scared. He already had an arm bitten off by a lion and, and there was one lion that he couldn't really fully tame. It was really a, an angry lion. And he decided the best thing to do to calm his nerves would be to get drunk before trying to tame wild animals.

You guys want to field that one and give our listeners a little quick overview? Well, it's the epitome, it's the show must go on. These performers have all said, I would rather die on stage than in bed. Carl Willenda said, I would rather die in the wire. So here's a guy who So a guy who loses a one arm. He says I'm not gonna quit. I'm a lion tamer. That's what I do you know

That's what he did That's there's go ahead and it was quite a show because I think there were seven lions In the cage with him and each one of them took a bite and then once they got some of the lions off, the other ones went back and had some more all in front of an audience of children and families, which is great. Jared And I heard it, I think it was like one lion who was the one to break the ice. And he took a bite out of them. And then the other started thinking, hey, we're lions, we should be doing this. And they all started eating them. Yeah, there was one lion that was very polite,

took a bite that went back to where he was sitting. And then when they thought it was all over, he went back and finished them off. That was the story that stayed with me and haunted me through the night. But you guys broke this thing down. You decided you wanted to do, how did you first tackle the book?

I mean, you decided to do some circuses and then you some stage performers and even people who died on radio. Well, let me back up. The idea came 15 years ago this August. I went to see an Elvis impersonator. My friends were the opening act and the gentleman who didn't coin the phrase, but you've heard them hundreds of times on Elvis recordings, Al Devarren, said, ladies and gentlemen, Elvis has left the building. Oh, yeah. He was in the lobby talking with friends and fans. And they said, Al, when are you going to write a book? You've done it all. You had an amazing career. And he goes, you know what? I have time. I'll get to it. Whatever. That was Saturday night. Monday morning, I'm watching the news. They reported he had just, he was killed in a car accident Sunday morning.

I said, wait, I was just with him, you know, less than 48 hours ago. And you realize, you know, life is fleeting. And you think about how many people have died on stage. You know, Elvis died the day before a tour. Hank Williams died between a show. And we knew about Dick Shawn. And this man next to me said, and I came up with this title,

The Show Won't Go On. And he said, well, put your money where your mouth is. Write the book. And we were gonna do all these great stories of people who dropped dead during a rehearsal and Cary Grant dropped dead. But Bert says, you know what, I think if we just limit it to guys who are people who died on stage, we may have enough. We didn't realize how many people died literally on stage going back. Yeah, that took about a year. I have to tell you, before I forget,

I was once on stage. This was about, I don't know, two, three years ago, I think. I was on stage and in the middle of a bit, a guy did scream out, is there a doctor in the house? And I thought, and I started laughing cause I thought this is like a vaudeville routine. You know, if there are a doctor in the house

and some woman died. While you were performing. Yes, yes. You were in the middle of a Norman fell bit. And the last thing she heard was Joyce DeWitt was a consummate professional. Yes. Wow. Wow.

But there's a surprising number of people who've died on stage. We started out again, as Jeff said, we started by getting people like Harry Chapin, who died on the way to a show, Litter Skin Skinner who died on the way back from a show. It turned out that there were so many, it was just unwieldy. So we narrowed it down to people who died. Literally. Literally. Yeah.

Yeah. So we narrowed it down to people who died in front of a camera, people who died on a stage in a circus tent, and then there were still too many. So they had to get rid of movie stars and TV stars and people who died in rehearsals and narrowed it down finally to just people who died in front of an audience, whether it's an audience in a theater, in an arena or on social media now. We have people, not people that commit suicide on social media, but performers, like the guy who had, who took all of his social media followers on a wingsuit flight off a mountain.

And he was one of the first to do it. My God. And he flew about 20 feet before he dropped. And what you heard at the end was just him hitting, you heard a scream, him hitting. And then you started hearing the sound of cows. Mmm, mmm. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. He fell in a field and all these cows came over to see what does a drum

play in the middle of their field. So I was talking about how you guys decided to categorize the material. So it was just, that was, that was what you narrowed it down to. Anybody that died in front of an audience, be it on radio, conducting an orchestra, in a circus tent, in the case of Wilenda, he was on the high wire. not and not athletes we couldn't fit in sure, you know boxers or people people that go into a Stuntman into an arena knowing that the death might be a possibility Except for the circus performers because they consider themselves to be performers and not athletes didn't and mean and she didn't die on stage But I think she died immediately after.

I think, didn't Carmen Miranda, I think she was doing like the Jimmy Durante show. She had a heart attack while performing on the Jimmy Durante show and then went home to Beverly Hills where she hosted a party, I believe. And then her husband found her, I think the next morning in the hallway. Oh, geez. How did you know that, Gilbert? Yeah, no, that one I knew.

He's working on a sequel. And that's one of the things we're finding are the misconceptions people have. People think Irene Ryan died on stage or you know, Frank Sutton, Sergeant Carter. Yes. Sergeant Carter was in his dressing room and he dropped dead before he went out on stage. Yes, I found that on your website. Doing further reading. We had very strict rules.

We had very strict rules and criteria like Lee Morgan, we said another five feet, he would have made the book. This is a jazz trumpeter who was walking toward the stage when his common law wife shot him in the back. His band was on the stage. He didn't quite make it, so he didn't make the book. Wow. So now Common Miranda had a heart attack on the show? Yes. Yes.

While dancing. Yeah. Yeah. I think Caesar Romero was somehow involved. I don't know. I don't know how we love that you guys are attracted to the dark side of show business like us, you're obviously, you listen to this show and you're also perfect for it.

Why is, why is orchestra conductor the, the, the highest, why does that come with the highest risk? Yeah, orchestra conductor is probably the most risky occupation in show business. Yeah, that struck me. And the reason, well, to give it away, they're all usually between the ages of 50 and 80. They travel a lot.

They travel between cities to conduct for various orchestras. They don't eat well. They eat a lot of airplane food. It's very high stress getting these orchestras together in time for the show. And then once they get up on the podium, the adrenaline starts going and then the music starts getting a little bit faster and they're conducting harder and then they plots. It's funny because I remember many years ago, someone's saying that orchestra conductors are among the most in shape people because they're giving themselves a workout every, every day.

They, you know, it's like waving their arms. It's like, you know, it's like a robot size, but I guess it's not working. It's not working. No, there might be, it might be too much exercise for some of these people. Yeah.

What, what about, and we jump around here too, cause we, Gilbert and I are fascinated by the magicians, which we'll get to, but what, what about a Gilbert favorite? What about Joey Ross? Well, Joey Ross, and how did he not die in a hooker?

He was putting on a show in his apartment complex in, in Burbank. Uh, when he's in the middle of the show, he stopped, he sat down on the side of the stage, realized he was having a heart attack and died. And the person who put on the show only paid his wife half the money cause he only did half a show. He was supposed to he was supposed to be paid $100 and he said here's 50. He didn't complete it. That's happened to several people that happened to our jazz man Warren Marsh as well. Well, that was the whole point of the book is to come I always always say to Bert

what's the button because otherwise and he had a heart attack and he had a heart attack, and he had a heart attack. And I think the epitome of that is to find, is the story that tells it best is the first entry is Jane Little, this woman who was about four foot 11. Oh yeah, that's a good one. She had the, she was about the size of June Ferre. She had the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest tenure in an orchestra. And the largest instrument she played. Right.

The instrument was bigger than her. She comes back after ill health and drops dead, unfortunately, during the encore of her show. And as Bert said, if you wrote this in a movie, they would say, no way, take it out. Nobody's going to believe it. She dropped dead while she's playing. There's no business like show business. Perfect.

And there was a horrible, not like there was only one horrible thing. That woman, that girl actually, she was a dancer and she was set on fire. Yes. That goes back to the 1800s. That's an early one where her flimsy gown caught on one of the stage lights and as she kept dancing and running around in circles, the flames just got higher. And then it turned out that other dancers learned there was a flame retardant they could put on their costumes so that wouldn't happen again, but none of them would do it because the costumes look better without it.

And wasn't it like the manager, you know, ran up on stage and said, everything's fine. They say that a lot. Yeah. All right, let's ask him. They say that quite often. The thing with the girl dancer that gave me a chill is when the mother, her mother was in the audience to make matters worse. And that the mother went up and said something to her while she was dying. And then the daughter answered. Remember this? Yep.

Yeah. It, it, there are so many instances, unfortunately, where people have literally died in front of their children or their spouses. It's, and the one thing we wanted to do was to celebrate these performers lives and really not to make fun of their tragic and endings, you know, but it is, I mean, some of them are almost cartoonish the way they died. You know, when, when Tommy Cooper, you know, drops dead on stage, you know, the audience is laughing and, and then quickly people go, wait, that's not in his act. The British comedian, Tommy Cooper. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, people go, wait, that's a new bit. You know, when Dick Shawn died, his son was the stage manager and knew the act and Dick dropped to his feet. And he goes, he doesn't do that in the show normally. You know? I mean, it's literally. Yeah, Dick Shawn is probably like one of the most famous instances of somebody dying on stage. Can I just, before you go on to Dick Shawn. Yeah.

I heard with the girl who died, you know, on fire, that the mother ran up to her afterwards, crying hysterically, and she said, had I been in the balcony seat, I could have thrown a cloak on you and put the fire out. And the girl, her dying words were, yes, you could have. Yep. And I thought, you could have. Yep. And I thought, oh my god.

Thanks for that. Thanks mom. How the fuck did the mother live with that as the daughter's last words? Yeah, cause usually the mother was in the wings waiting and the mother could have just thrown her cloak on her and saved her. There's a couple, yeah, there is a couple of stories.

There are a couple of stories like that. I mean, Sean's son is one of them, which is one of the sadder things in the book. And I knew all for years that Dick Sean died on stage, but I didn't know the details. Yeah. As Jeff was alluding to, I didn't know he tried out for major league baseball.

I didn't know he was a ballplayer. That was his original dream. Dick Sean did not know that. To for major league baseball. I didn't know he was a ball player. That was his original dream. Dick Sean did not know that. To be a baseball player, yeah. I mean, Dick Sean's one man show, the second greatest entertainer in the world started out, he started every show by lying down on the stage underneath the newspapers, totally still, not moving at all. And when the audience came in and filed into the theater,

they didn't realize he was on the stage and then the lights would go down and he'd come up from underneath the newspapers. When it came time for intermission, he'd say, I'm gonna take a nap, and he'd fall down and lay down on the stage through the entire intermission and then get up for the second part of the show.

So here he is, he's at the University of San Diego playing in the auditorium. And he is, he's at the University of San Diego, playing in the auditorium, and he's riffing, he's doing one of one of his more surreal bits, and he says, let's pretend that there's been a nuclear war and everyone in the country is killed, except the people in this theater, and I will be your leader. And then he fell. And everybody kind of waited. The stagehands knew that he falls down on the stage once in a while the Sun who was in the back of the theater Again realized he doesn't usually fall like that doesn't hit his head that way so he calls down

Through the through the headphone to the stage manager says go on check them see if he's alright So the stage manager walks out yes, I I don't know is I can, see if he's all right. So the stage manager walks out. He goes, I don't know. I can't tell if he's breathing or not. He walks back. And so then suddenly Dick Shawn's son realized what was going on and ran out to try to save his father and it was too late. But he was out.

And then the worst part was people in the theater, some of them asked for their money back. Oh man. We haven't seen the whole show yet. Oh my God. While he was on the stage. And in this case, they said, is there a doctor in the house?

And there were about 40 doctors in the house because it was right next to the hospital. I guess San Diego has a, the university there has a teaching hospital. So a lot of doctors are there trying to save him. And then out in the lobby comes his cousin, who is a cardiologist. Who they didn't need to do an autopsy.

They just realized right there and then he had died. Wow. That's a sad one. Well, the sad one is also, it's been what? 35 years. And you know, when we talked to Adam Sean, his son, he still cries about it. It's not a joke. And you say to somebody, well, do you get any kind of relief or comfort

in the fact that he died doing what he loved? It's like, well, a little bit, but I would rather have him around for another 20 years. Well, of course, that's the question that was asked to Bob Einstein about Park your Carcass. Yeah. The greatest answer, and where Albert's answer is different, Albert says, isn't it amazing

he finished the act? He didn't die going to the theater. He didn't die in the middle. He waited until he finished. He sat down. And if you've heard the recording, you've never heard laughter like that. Desiournez is screaming, people are pounding tables. No pun intended, Gilbert, he killed and literally seconds later.

Yeah, Bob Einstein said, someone said, isn't it great your father died doing what he loved? And Bob Einstein said to the guy, he goes, what does your mother do? And he said, She's a housewife. And he said, Let's go over to her house right now. I'll take out a gun and blow her fucking brains out. And we can say she died doing what she loved. While she was washing the dishes. Talk a little bit about that night and about Park your carcass. It was at the dishes. Talk a little bit about that night and about Park Your Carcass. It was at the Hilton, right? It was at Beverly Hilton.

Yeah, it was an LA Friars event. It rose for Lucy and Desi. A testimonial dinner, if we may be correct. Oh, a testimonial dinner, okay. Forgive me. So there were men and women there. Big names, Byrne and Burns and Burl and Ed Wynn. And Jessel.

Jessel. Your favorite was the MC. Sammy Davis. Art Linklater. Sammy was there. Tony Martin. Danny Thomas and Sammy Davis Jr. were waiting to go on, but they unfortunately got bumped due to unfortunate circumstances. circumstances and Harry Parky Karkus, Einstein had this bit where he would just take what was logical and then twist it around.

Like he said, the Friars is a very exclusive club. You must be pledged by two people in good standing, one of them by Chicko Marx. You know, he would love to do those little switches and he had been doing it for the last year or so at various roasts. I mean, testimonial dinners with great success. He had become a favorite. He had been in ill health for years before. He had did a TV movie earlier that year and we thought we would see more of them, but the old ticker gave out and it was that thing, is there a doctor in the house?

Yeah. And the great story is, so Milton Berle gets up to calm the audience and he goes to Tony Martin, Tony, sing a song and Tony sings, there's no tomorrow. How do you write that? Years later Leonard Malton told me Milton Berle and Art Lindley were doing a radio show and they were in the hall and they both looked at each other and they go I'll never forget that night he goes neither will I and I mean that's. He goes, neither will I. And I mean. That's schmuck Tony Martin. What about Al Kelly, which happened at the New York Friars, the master of the double

talk? That was, that was, I like to say it was a hilarious one, but yeah, that was one where, um, old Al came out, did his, his double talk routine then he went back on his way back to his table. He went out, and they carried him out to the Round the World Bar. There were doctors in the house, of course, and they pronounced him dead on the bar. This is on 55th Street in the monastery.

Yeah, in the monastery, yeah. Did you know that bar? It's the Billy Crystal Bar now, Gilbert. Billy just laid him out on the bar. He, they did his last rites on the bar. I've eaten laid him out on the bar. He, he, they did his last rights on the bar. I've eaten pizza goldfish on that bar. Wow. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast right after this. That's what you say. Hump, hump, hump, there Gilbert and Frank, we love Gilbert and Frank, we worship Gilbert and Frank, now back to Gil and Frank. Now, before we forget the stuff I'm most interested in, and Frank is first with you, Jeff.

Yes. Ah, tell us about you and Paul Hanka. We are our firm had the privilege of representing Paul in about 2007. He was doing a follow-up CD to Rock Swings called Classic Songs My Way, where he would take rock songs and do it in the Sinatra style. It was a very good album. The first album got the New York Times and he was on Letterman, but you don't strike lightning twice, So it was getting hard to get press. Ironically, at the same time,

we were working with Wayne Newton when he was on Dancing with the Stars. And all these singers hate each other. They're all jealous. You know, why is Tom Jones doing this? Why is Tony Bennett on the MTV Awards? So my boss was on an airplane with Paul's either wife or girlfriend.

I'm trying to remember the relationship and somehow she let it slip. We're working with Paul, with Wayne Newton. So Wayne called. So Paul calls the office. I answer the phone. He goes, what's this? I hear you represent Wayne Newton and I'm doing my Jackie Gleason hum the hum. And this the longest pour is Gilbert in your life.

I don't, what do I say? And he goes I'll take that as a yes He goes and I'll remember this to this day the fucker can't sing now America will see that he can't dance Okay, okay, okay Why do you take it out on you, Jeff? Because I was the guy that answered the phone. He goes like, I'm Paul Anka. How dare you represent that guy who can't sing, Wayne Newton.

He just, you know, he's the guy. How dare you represent somebody else? I know comics are competitive, but it's great to know that singers are competitive the same way that they piss on each other. And, you know, he was, I think we're about the same size, five foot four, you know, and you know, he's very Napoleonic, he's the first guy I ever saw

with a black American express car, you know, he would walk into Chasen's and everybody knew him. But you know, he was very proud of the fact in Ocean's 13, Al Pacino is doing his speech from the famous recording of him on the bus yelling at the band. But he was proud of that fact. I sliced like a fucking hammer.

Exactly, and he said, you know what? I was absolutely right, those band members were terrible, it's my ass on the line. You know, he was proud of that fact. Oh, he stands by it. That's the way. He is not contrite about the guys get shirts. That's the fucking way it is. What about you and the buddy story you told me over the phone as long as we're doing the stories from the intros.

Well, I worked with with Peter Brennan at a current affair. He's the man who invented a current affair. Uh-huh. And then later Peter went on to invent Judge Judy. So he had great success with the courtroom show. Around 1999, we had the idea, let's do a comedy courtroom show. So we thought, you know, Pig Beat Markham was dead. We tried- Oh no!

Joan Rivers. Here come the judge. No pig meat. Here come the judge. So through my attorney, from the Friars Club, Paul Sherman was my attorney. He represented Buddy Hackett and arranged for us to meet Buddy Hackett to see if Buddy Hackett wanted to do the show. So Peter and I and my wife, Allison, had a meeting at Buddy Hackett's house at one in the afternoon in the middle of the week. We arrived at his house, this beautiful one-story house in the flats of Beverly Hills,

giant house, but Buddy's wife had turned every room in the house and including the sunken tennis court, which we'd all seen pictures of Buddy Hackett and Johnny Carson and Alan King playing tennis. She turned the entire place into a cat sanctuary. Cats lived in every room. There were cages and cat hangers and Buddy had one room in the house, sort of a wing, a large rec room that was his. So we went into the rec room and it contained a pool table, a bar, a display case for his golf clubs, a display case for his guns and he had a lot of guns. And every shutter on every window was closed.

So it was pitch black. It could have been midnight, but it was one o'clock in the afternoon in the middle of summer. Buddy took out the drinks and he made us lime rickies. And we started drinking and spent about three hours didn't mention the show once he did shtick for us he read us his poetry he he read us the letter that he wrote to Bill Cosby when his son Ennis died he wept while he read the letter to us he gave us the full buddy hack it

and then at one point he just stopped and said I won't work with any assholes I want my son Sandy involved and he told us the amount of money he wanted per And then at one point he just stopped and said, I won't work with any assholes. I want my son Sandy involved. And he told us the amount of money he wanted per episode. And then we kept drinking. And he said, you know, why don't we just meet, you know, fuck the show. Let's just meet here once a week and drink. So we said, you know, thanks buddy.

We left. About three weeks went by, maybe a little bit more, four weeks. We're waiting to get some traction, arrange some meetings for the show. And finally, we have some meetings set up for the Buddy Hackett Comedy Courtroom Show. So I call Buddy and I say, you know, hello? Buddy, Bert Kearns, if you remember me, we were at your house for the, for the, uh, to do this comedy courtroom show. He's like, no, leave me alone. No, no, buddy, this is, we had the meeting, you know, you wanted this amount of money. We're going to go out and pitch it now. Now fuck you.

I don't want to do it. Leave me alone. Goodbye. And, uh, buddy, this is the real thing. We're going to actually, we're going to do a show. Go fuck yourself. And then he hung up the phone. Actually Gilbert, you could, if you could play Buddy Hack, I think you could do it better.

Go fuck yourself. It turned out that Buddy had signed on to that, the J Moore show action. Oh, action. Yeah. So his career. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice to meet your heroes, isn't it guys?

By the way, back to the book for one thing. I've known Bob Greenberg about 50 years and I had no idea that he was Al Kelly's what, grand, grand nephew? Yeah. Al Kelly's like honorary grand nephew or something. Yeah. I've known Bob forever. You know Bob Greenberg.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. You all know Bob Greenberg. How is that possible? Well, if anyone was, it would be him. He lost 33 pounds on a diet, as recently I saw on Facebook. Yeah, he's a good guy.

There's a perfect example. Bob would always tell the story. He didn't even know what Friar's event it was at. We had to tell him it was one for Joey Lewis. Hilarious. He thought it was for somebody else. OK. Now, on to the magicians, which is

where Gilbert wanted to go. Tell us about Washington Irving Bishop. We both love this one. Well, Washington Irving Bishop was a mentalist. He did. He was able to like drive a horse, a horse carriage through the streets while he was blindfolded. He was able to find people in the audience

who had a coin in their pocket. A modern day Kresgen. But to get into the act, he did a lot of cocaine, a lot of drugs, a lot of alcohol. And he would go into these conniption fits on stage and then drop to the stage and go into this very death-like coma. And everybody that he worked with and everybody he worked for knew that if he fell out on the

stage and appeared to be dead, he wasn't really dead. He was in this trance-like state. So he actually kept a little note in his pocket, in his front pocket that said, you know, if you find me, I'm not dead. Gilbert, may I recommend such a note? So he was actually performing in New York and it happened, he fell and they took him over to the doctor's office and his mother who worked with him and his wife showed up to say, well, where is he? And they said, oh, sorry. They took him to the funeral home and they had removed his brain.

And it was like, but he wasn't dead. And I think they sued. Yeah. And rightly so. So, so they were a little overzealous. They performed an autopsy on the guy and he wasn't dead. What about, this is another one Gilbert and I love, and we forgot the name, the Chinese, the Chinese bullet catcher?

Oh. Who wasn't really Chinese? This is the most famous, Chung Ling Su. Oh, we're big fans. No relation to Jack Su. No relation to Papi on Shushu. His real name was William Robinson. Of course.

And there was another Chinese magician with a similar name and he decided I will do a name similar to his and people will think I'm him and I will adopt his persona and I will work and he became very successful he was one of the most successful performers in all of vaudeville like Gallagher too yeah and he would speak in mock gibberish Chinese and he had a phony interpreter who would ask him questions of Gilbert Gilbert, you'll like this. The person that he was ripping off was named Ching Ling Fu. Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ponytail and the oriental robe. And so he had been doing this, the bullet catch for 10, for about 10 years had been done by a number of magicians for, for about a hundred years prior.

Oh, excuse me, Gilbert, his assistant's name was Sue Seen. But I think she was, she was from Yonkers. She was, she wasn't Chinese either. Sorry, Jeff, go on. It's not El Blankfit. Yes. Sure. So he had been doing it for about 10 years and it had already become like, it wasn't

like the grand finale. It was something he did on occasion. So he had done it and he had this whole thing where he's going to catch the bullets on a silver tray and unfortunately he got he had two men load he was so secretive no one in his show knew how the trick was done oh she was so protective so they put you know gunpowder down one of the barrels which was a trick barrel and would not shoot and a phony projectile would come out of the second one. But unfortunately, doing it so many times

that the gunpowder, you know, you know, got into the other barrel. And next thing you know, he was a bullet came out, he was shot dead. And that's when they found out he was not Chung Ling Su, but William Robinson. He spoke the first words, his first words of English. He goes, I think I've been shot. That was the thing. When he was shot, he went, I think I've been shot. And the audience went, he's speaking English. Nobody cared that he got shot.

They said, wait a minute, he's not really a Chinaman. Get your money back. I love these magicians. Who was the guy whose wife substituted the bullets, real bullets for wax bullets? Was that Professor Marvaux in Argentina? Might have been Arnold Buck. Or was it the Black Wizard of the West in South Dakota, whose wife was angry at him. I think she was the one that swapped out the wax bullets,

real bullets for the wax bullets. You know, it's amazing, Bert and I were just chatting. The first recorded entry we have in the bullet catch was 1820 of someone dying during a bullet catch. And the last one is 2007. Oh my God. Nearly for almost 200 years, you would think at some point somebody would wise up and go, this is not for us.

You know, I mean, and people have been killed by having audience members load the bullets. One time someone from the audience actually pulled out a gun and shot the performer. Yeah, that was Professor Marvo. He was getting ready for the trick. And an audience member said, Hey, catch this professor and shot him and killed him. And the guy went on trial and was acquitted because he really thought that Professor Marvo would catch the bullet. Oh, geez. Couldn't they just lock him up for being an asshole? But our good friend and yours Gilbert, Penn Jillette really put this whole thing in perspective

on how morally irresponsible it is to do a trick that puts you in danger. He really explained it quite well in the book. We're so thankful that he gave us such a great interview. And he talked about people like David Blaine, he says, I'm going to risk my life for you. He said, No. And he also talked about, you know, you should have a warning in front of the theater. And he said, that's ridiculous. And people know, it's just a trick. He goes, when you go to Disneyland, you know, if you were going on a roller coaster and getting killed, it

wouldn't happen. You know, well, what's the philosophy? Nothing, nothing more dangerous than sitting in your living room. Absolutely. You said that was Houdini's philosophy and that's a philosophy that Penn and Teller lived by this day. Even though Penn thinks he's going to die doing a stunt on stage. I remember Penn and Teller did a bit where Teller is in a water tank. Oh, yeah. And he starts like gasping and like pounding on the glass. Like he's like drowning.

And then, you know, works out at the end. And Penn said to the audience, he goes, you know what stands out? Not one of you in the audience got up to help him. But that is a perfect example of a magic trick that is completely safe. And I shouldn't say that I should say that's a complete example of something that you think is safe, can turn in a second, you know, because the bullet catch is a trick when done correctly, but the amount of danger that is inherent to

that trick. Well, this the saddest one is, is actually Ralph, Ralph Bialla, he was the most famous bullet catcher in Germany, he caught bullets about more than three thousand times and he actually did it with steel gloves and steel dentures that he had in his mouth. So he would catch the bullet in the steel gloves and it would go into his mouth. Unfortunately, it gave him really bad headaches and one day he was walking through the Tyrolean mountains and got dizzy and fell off a cliff. You see Gilbert, you think you got a hard career, you think you're going up there.

And you wouldn't think it would cause bad things like headaches, catching bullets in your mouth. Well, you feel better now when you're doing the chuckle hut on a last show on a Sunday? And you think about what these guys had to do. Tell us about the diving bells and the connection to, uh, the three stooges, something we love to talk about on this show. Cause Gilbert was fascinated by this too. That was a, that was a vaudeville act. The, the, the, the six diving bells were some, you know, pretty girls who would sit,

who would stand on diving boards around the side of a, of a, of a pool. And when the curtains would open, each one would dive into the water. Unfortunately, the diving boards they had were very touchy. And if you took a wrong step, you'd go flying. And right as the curtains were about to open, one of the diving bells went up in the air, came down on her head and was killed. And again, the stage manager ran out and said, everybody's, it's all fine, she's fine, the show goes on.

It turned out that the six diving bells were not all girls. Two of them were men. One of them was Ted Healy and the other was Moe Howard. How about that? Wow! How about that? When they were teenagers. Wow! The diving bells. Yeah, because it was turned up in one of Moe's memoirs or one of Moe's. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about the actual death of Ted Healy, which is Shrouded in Mystery? You guys got a theory? You know, they say it was, um, what the relative of

Cubby Broccoli? Yeah, Cubby Broccoli was directly involved. Right, right, right. That's right. Yeah. Um, beaten, beaten to death supposedly. But it's that that is pretty much the given theory that it was a result of that, you know, he got in a fight, he was drunk and I believe he was in an alley afterwards, I think would come in broccoli if I remember correctly. Mm-hmm. And then what about the death of Alfalfa? Wasn't Alfalfa's last words, you know, where are my drugs? He was shot in a drug deal, I believe. I think he was shot over a dog. Yeah, like someone, he borrowed a dog or someone borrowed his dog. And then I think he pulled out a knife

and someone shot him. Something like that. He didn't die on stage, don't ask me. Yeah. He died on stage, I can tell you the whole story. You know, a recurring motif, by the way, just in not only, we're talking about shootings, but you mentioned before, you mentioned Hackett's gun collection,

and this is something Jeff and I were talking about on the phone. What is this obsession with comedians and guns? You guys went to the Jerry Lewis auction recently. In Vegas, we had to sit through 75 lots of guns. 75 different lots of his guns. We both got the catalog and said, oh my God, Jerry Lewis is a state auction catalog.

I figured there's going to be costumes, the Nutty Professor outfit, and all these great items. The first 40 pages was 75 lots of guns. So we go to the auction and we had to sit through 75 lots. And lot number 42, a Beretta lot 42 45 Yeah, it was just like was he paranoid did you think somebody was after him? He you know he had a stalker

Yeah, he would always say if the you know that guy comes here, you know that fucker and all you know He was very proud of it You know I get having two guns or three guns, but I mean, we're talking an arsenal. An arsenal, yeah. And then he had one gun was engraved. I think it said Jew or Super Jew. I will give him credit. He was very proud of his heritage. He had many things. He had death ornaments that said Super Jew. The Jew stops here. He was very proud of his heritage. He had many things. He had death ornaments that said super Jew. The Jew stops here. He was very proud of that. What's the, what's what's the Sid Caesar

story with the gun, Jeff? So Sid Caesar dies, unfortunately, and they're, you know, they're cleaning out his closet and they find more cigars, suits, a couple of handguns, you know, a hunting rifle. And then his daughter finds something and says, I don't know what this is. I have to, I better call the Beverly Hills police. It was like a Thompson submarine, a submachine gun. It's amazing what these comedians did. What's wrong with these guys? You never know when you might need one of those.

I forgot who said it and put it in perspective. At the Burt Reynolds estate auction, he had two guns in his collection. Jerry Lewis had 75. 75. So what does that tell you about Jerry Lewis? You worked with Burt Reynolds, Burt, but despite the fact that several of the people around him were always worried that he was going to take a, take a swing

at, at, which was a, I guess, not an unfounded fear. You, you liked him. You got along with him. Oh, Burt Reynolds was, was, was terrific. He was a, um, the movie we did was called Cloud Nine and I wrote it with my partner in time, Brett Hudson from the Hudson Brothers. Oh yeah. We had Mark here. You guys know Mark of course. Brett and I and Al Ruddy and Al had won the Oscar for The Godfather and he was sort of

in his autumn years at that time and Brett had known Al for about 20 years and we got together. Al had a Showtime special that he was offered to do. And his company and our company got together and it was called My First Time. It was a series for Showtime where we interviewed 84 women about the first time they had sex and then reenacted it with porn actors. Al Ruddy and his partner kind of worked under pseudonyms.

Gills got on the show. Worked under pseudonyms. So we did that for showtime. And then Brett and I would go out to lunch every day at this Chinese restaurant on Pico with Al. And we would talk. And one day, Al said, I just went to visit my son at NYU. And he had this poster on the wall

of this really sexy woman at the beach. It was Gabrielle Reese. And I said to my son, I didn't realize that you were into beach volleyball. And he said, no, I'm into Gabrielle Reese. And I said to my son, I didn't realize that you were into beach volleyball. And he said, no, I'm into Gabrielle Reese. Look at her. So then we kept talking and said, why don't we do a movie about beach volleyball strippers? And we said, yeah.

So we came up with an idea to do a movie where Burt Reynolds played the coach of a team of strippers playing beach volleyball. And we actually, Al actually got funding for it. And we hired a director who had just come off a really hot movie, Funky Monkey. Oh my God. There you go Gil. Oh my God. Harry Basil. Harry Basil.

Yeah. Wow. And so, you know, Brett and I thought that we had, you know, the next SOB, we had this movie set in Malibu where, you know, Burt Reynolds was playing this con man who comes up with this idea to start a beach volleyball team. We really had a movie about beach volleyball strippers. But we had quite a cast. We had Gary Busey, D.L. Uegle. Well, actually it was Burt Reynolds, D.L. Uegle, Paul Rodriguez, Angie Everhart, Gabrielle Reese. And Gary Busey came on to do a one day cameo.

But Gary knew some of the people there and he liked the craft service food so much that he showed up every day for the rest of the shoot for the next few weeks. A goth-free move. When Access Hollywood showed up to interview the cast, Gary ran over as if he was the star of the movie and did all the interviews for us. But Bert loved him. This seems like the kind of movie I would have shown up all night. Yeah, or shown up in.

Yeah, it was good. But Bert Reynolds was terrific. Every morning, again, Harry did a great job. He did a great job with what we gave him. There were a lot of dicks swinging around around the outskirts of that movie and Harry managed to negotiate everything, got everything done on time.

But he was a bit afraid of Burt because Al had told him the story that Burt had punched out a director on one of his last movies. So Harry didn't want to get punched. So every morning, Bret Hudson and I would meet with Burt in the makeup trailer and go over the script and go over some lines, etc. And the way Bert Reynolds had makeup put on was he would sit and he had a pair of jeans that he would roll up above his ankles. He had a t-shirt that the neck was cut out and the sleeves were cut out.

And the makeup lady had an airbrush and sprayed every exposed part of his body with orange paint. I can't make this up. And then he put on his rose-colored glasses and went out. Yeah. But he was, you know, I came again. Well, he never threatened you. Nah, he was, he was great. He w he worked well with all the young kids. I mean, I had come from tabloid television in the tabloid world and I, I said to him, I said, you know, you always show up in the national inquirer and we've

always heard stories about you. Do you like the national inquirer? Do you, you know, do you cooperate with them or do you hate them? And he said, I fucking hate them. He said, you know, these people called up my parents in the middle of the night to tell them I was dying of AIDS. And he said, one Christmas,

the National Enquirer down in Florida had some giant Christmas tree in Lantana, Florida. And Burt Reynolds and a friend of his got a helicopter and dumped half a ton of horse shit on top of the tree. Did you know that, Gilbert? No. That's fun. True story, yeah.

But you know, I remember working on some movie where there was gonna be a scene, it was in a comedy where Burt Reynolds is in a hospital bed for the bit. And I heard the word on the set was that one of the tabloids said they were offering a certain amount of money to anyone who could snap a picture of Burt Reynolds in a hospital bed so that they could run the headline, Burt Reynolds dying of AIDS.

Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah. Unbelievable. What, what, what, what afternoon he invited Brett and I into his trailer at lunchtime. And so we get to the trailer and we open the door and it's, it's dark and we're like, oh shit, is he going to hit on us or something? No, we always, we always heard about Burt Reynolds and the tabloids, you know, best friends with,

you know, Charles Nelson Riley and Dom DeLuis. You're never sure what's going on here. But he was sitting there and he says, come look at this. And there's a documentary on the screen. It was an Errol Morris documentary. I think it's called Vernon, Florida. Oh, it's a good movie. Right.

And there's this, there's this old turkey hunter being interviewed. He's talking in this really deep South, backwoods Florida accent and Burt is sitting there trying to get the accent down. He was saying, he's saying, you know, only Jonathan Winters could do this. He's the only one I really, you know, he was always trying to be a better actor, which was great. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this. We got to talk a little bit about Jerry and we'll get, I'm going to save Jerry for last

because you've all got your Jerry stories, but let's and Gilbert has his, but I do want to know one other thing from the book and we. You guys know we jump around. We got to talk about Rodeale dying on Cavett. Because we've heard Dick's perspective. Because he was a health expert. Yes. That's the best part. He was the guru of organic food.

Of organic foods. That was the best part of the story. Well, Dick always said, the gods gave me that. You could not ask for a better guest to die on your show. By the way, it was interesting in your book that he and Marshall Brickman got together and put in the tape one night. Because the tape's in a vault, right?

He won't let anybody see the tape. Yes, he let us see it. He let you guys see it. I think I can publicly say it. Your friend and ours, Robert Bader, Uh huh. Who works very closely with Mr. Cavett. He said to me, if you sell this book, I will let you watch the Rodeale episode.

And as soon as we had, I had a contract in my hand. My first phone call was to Bader. Fantastic. And we got to watch it. We probably, you can literally almost count on one hand, the number of people have seen this episode. And as Dick will tell you, about 20 people a year come up to him and say, the expression on your face,

and no one has seen it. Yeah. Unless you're in the audience at night. People think they saw it. It's, it's, right. It's, it's. Yeah, the episode never aired. Right that night. People think they saw it. It's right. Yeah, the episode never aired. Right.

Everybody thinks that it did. It never aired. Between Dick telling it as recently, earlier this year on Seth Meyers, to the detailed account that Pete Hamill did, because he was the guest on the show, in the paper, it's one of those things that everyone feels they had seen that episode.

Yeah. I didn't know that Hamill was a guest on that show until, until I read your book. So you guys are among the select few. It's like the select group of people who've seen the day the clown cried footage. Right. In an exclusive club. Right. Tell not a bad movie either.

But you know, it's the little subtleties that, you know, people have gotten wrong. Did he actually say this phrase? Right. Did he say this? You know, there's the little subtleties that, you know, people have gotten wrong. Did he actually say this phrase? Did he say this? You know, there's little things we were watching. And I don't know if Bert even caught it the first time. He says a line like, oh, let me say this until I come back next time. And our cabbage says, oh, we'll have you back. I mean, it's those little subtleties, which were very, are eerie. Right. I mean, for instance, part of the legend is that when Pete Hamill was being interviewed

and Rodale was next to him and then suddenly Rodale started making a snoring sound, which was apparently like the death rattle. And the legend has been that Dick Cavett leaned over and said, excuse me, Mr. Rodale, are we boring you? Yeah, yeah, I was going to ask you about that. And that never happened. Interesting. When he made the noises, some people in the audience giggled a bit, but Dick Cavett and

Pete Hamill knew right away and the alarm on their faces was like, they're like, holy shit. And immediately they went into action. There was no time for any sort of, you know, Bon Motz or whatever. That story was told on the very first episode of this podcast. Yeah, absolutely. Right, absolutely. And the other thing is that said during the course

of the interview, Rodale was very concerned about having like free electric shock therapy therapy before anybody was doing it to get the energy back into his body. And we came across a piece from Marshall Efron, who was the other guest on the show that night. And he believes that the lights and the microphones were zapping the electricity out of Rodale's body. And that may have been the cause of his death. and the microphones was zapping the electricity out of a throwdown's body and that may have been the cause of his death. Yeah. All right Jeff you're the big Jerry

Defender on Facebook and you and I I've picked bones with you before and there's no no no more scotch to Jerry Defender than you are and Gilbert you know of course Gilbert loves to use the line he was always nice to me. He was he was as it turns, nice to both of you. Well, I mean, I've seen both, you know, I've been very lucky, as you saw, I promoted the documentary, the method to the madness, the filmmaker told me, Hey, when Jerry goes, I have all the outtakes, you know, so I've seen the great side, you know, when I was doing my rich brother's book, you know, Jerry, we wanted to interview Jerry, he called me up, left a message on my machine and, you know, fast forward, I'm

in his, dead in his house doing an interview with him. And I've been in his company many times, a sweetheart. We have, Bert and I both have friends who've worked on the telethon for 20 years. So that's the great side, but, so they were doing an event in Las Vegas called the Founders of Las Vegas. Oh, this is the George Slatter show. I was there. Yes. Were you there? Yeah.

This is great. I'm trying to get a ticket to the event. I think it was Caesar's Palace or Flamingo. I'm trying to get, and they say it's sold out. They said, well, all right, we got you a couple of comps I went with Bader and Then I sit to a woman who's sitting next to us. I had you get in said Oh, they were giving away free tickets in the lobby. Is it really so because George Carlin was on the panel Along with Dorn Crosby Phyllis Dilla Shecky and Jerry I got to go backstage and Jerry walks in and the room lights up. He's the big,

you know, we have to give him credit. I mean, who else had a career of, you know, 75 years, you know, and he walks in, lady, and everybody's laughing and screaming and having a great time. So then the panel takes place and they're talking about Vegas and performers and Jerry says this quote which has been handed down from George Jessel to George Burns to Milton Berle, there's no place for young comedians to be bad. Gilbert, how many times have you heard that? Yeah. And Shecky Green goes, Jerry, what the hell are you talking about? Bud Friedman has a hundred improvs, my friend Sammy Shore invented the Comedy Store. What are you talking about Jerry? He goes, I'm sorry. I thought I thought I was right.

And next thing you know, Jerry excuses himself to go to the bathroom and never comes back. He was that offended. Yeah, I was in the audience and that was a scary moment because obviously Shecky hates him, along with probably everybody else on the earth that Shecky hates. So I saw, they never sold this, but when they were trying to sell this,

they did an edit of the taping and they had to cut around it so Jerry never looks like he walked off the set. I mean I mean at the other side was at the TCA for the Method to the Madness the we had not the documentary had not been available for the critics so they only had a few minutes of it and was just after he got fired by the telethon. So he really wasn't in a good mood. I remember him being introduced by Chris Albrecht and he's given this long intro and Jerry in that kind of burlesque delivery goes, hurry up, Chris, I have to shave again. He gets a laugh. He's out there. And someone says, Jerry, what do you think about reality

television? American Idol. And he goes, in my day, we didn't say TV, we called it television. And everybody on these shows looks like McDonald rejects these kids today. No one knows who Al Jolson is. I go, what? What is he talking about? So you see this side of him, but again, having been in his home, backstage at shows, I've had great experiences with him, but you know, if you tell me a story, I'm not going to deny it. And Bert spent, you know, a great time with him on current affair. Yeah, Bert, you were at the telethon too, at one of the telethons. Richard Belzer. The Bells.

Has a Jerry Lewis tattoo. Uh-huh. He sure does. I have two. One is the familiar telethon logo. The other is Hirschfeld's caricature. He's got two Jerry Lewis tattoos, Gilbert. Wow. And now I've heard more than a few people, and I mean, maybe that's why Nutty Professor is such a great film. I've heard more than a few people I asked who've described Jerry Lewis as Jekyll and Hyde. Well it was Sean Levy and I helped him with the PR for his book, The King of Comedy.

He was the first one to make that conclusion. Everyone always thought he was doing Dean Martin in that movie. And then he said, no, he's doing Jerry Lewis. If you look at Jerry Lewis and Jerry Langford, they had the same initials for a reason. Sure, sure, sure. But Bert, you had also mostly positive experiences of Jerry. I did back, back in 1987, I was working for NBC news and a friend of mine was the assistant director on Saturday night live, and she had a gig in the summer

as the assistant director for the telethon in Las Vegas. So I said, please, can you get me a gig as like a production assistant, just some low level gig so I can be there with Jerry for the entire, I wanna stay up all night and stay up the whole time with Jerry for the telethon. Stay up with Jerry. So she got me the gig.

I show up at Caesar's Palace, we go into the trailer where the production offices are. And they said, this is Bertie's going to be a production assistant. They said, get over here right away. Jerry just found a big mistake in the rundown. You've got to fix it. I go, great.

What do we have to do? So they gave me the rundown, which is the whole schedule of the show that gets handed out to everyone. And they sat me down at a typewriter, this is the old days, and gave me a bottle of whiteout because Jerry himself looked at the rundown and realized there was a big mistake at the top of every page. So it was my job to take the white out and white out the words muscular dystrophy because what it said at the top was 1987 muscular dystrophy telethon.

I had to white out the words muscular dystrophy and type in Jerry Lewis. So it said the 1987 Jerry Lewis telethon. And I was just so happy to do that. You were happy to do it. Oh, I was crying. The main thing I wanted to know was how real Jerry was. At the end of every telethon, you know, he sings, you'll never walk alone.

He blubbers, he puts the microphone down on the stool and staggers off. I wanted to see if once he stepped off that stage, you know, that'll hold the bastards for a while, see if he was the real deal. So I planted myself. I'd been up all night, Jerry and Sammy Davis. Sammy Davis had, it was before he had hip replacement surgery, he was on two canes, he had Alto on one side holding him up and his mother on the other side. Three o'clock in the morning, there's a drunken crowd in the bleachers, Sammy goes out, throws the canes down and does Birth of the Blues. And that's where I realized Sammy Davis Jr. was like the greatest performer I'd ever seen. Sorry. Back to the crutches away. Back to Jerry.

So back to Jerry. I'm standing there. He sings, You'll Never Walk Alone. He's crying. He puts the microphone down, walks off stage, and falls into his wife's arms and just weeps. And I was like, that's my Jerry. Yeah. How about that?

So to make a little story a bit longer. It's all about the phone call. Two years later, I'm working at a current affair and basically you could kind of do whatever stories you wanted at a current affair. So I said, let me write Jerry Lewis a letter. So I wrote Jerry Lewis a letter and I told him about what happened in 1987,

two years earlier. And I said, you know, also, you know, I've been a fan my whole life. And on weekends, I lived in the West Village at the time, on weekends, I go to record stores and I find copies of Jerry Lewis Just Sings. That was the 1956 standards album that he cut. One of the best albums ever made and everyone should have a copy. It's available now. But anyway, so I wrote a letter, I said, I've got a copy. I've got this album. I've got about 12 copies and I'd like to give one to you. But what I'd like to do is follow you around during the preparations for and through the telethon. About two weeks later, I get a call at the office. Hello Bert, this is Jerry. Are you kidding?

And he goes, I don't even have a copy of Jerry Lewis Just Sings. I'd love to have one. You're welcome to come to the telethon. You'll have my complete cooperation, the complete cooperation of my crew. The only thing I ask is that not just be a two minute segment. I said, fuck, Jerry, you're going to get the whole show. If you're going to let us be behind the scenes of the telethon, this is terrific.

I go, as a matter of fact, Jerry, this is a great forum for you because you can address your critics. My critics? I fuck them. I fuck my critics. Fuck them, fuck them. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

I'll see you next week. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. So we ended up spending a week with Jerry Lewis I'll see you next week. So we ended up spending a week with Jerry Lewis behind the scenes and he gave us the full Jerry. He, you know, he had tantrums, but he couldn't get his Eskimo pies. He did a two way with Frank Sinatra. He did tap dancing with the old tap dancers. He rode around in a golf cart and came up behind people and honked the horn.

Gave us the whole Jerry. It was terrific. Fantastic. But the other reason we defend Jerry is I think we just find him funny. I mean, who else had a career that, again, spans 70 plus years of success in every medium from vaudeville up until cable television, writer, performer, director, actor, singer. I was born in that sweet spot of Jerry's career. I was around in the 60s when I would go to double features at the Norwalk Theater of Hook, Lion, and Sinker, and the Family Jewels, and the Ladies Man. At that time when your heroes were soupy sales, Alan Sherman and Jerry Lewis and, uh, you had Jerry Lewis muscle dystrophy carnivals in my driveway.

I grew up with a Jerry Lewis, uh, cinema in, uh, East Meadow. Uh, I remember the Jerry Lewis cinema in East Meadow. Sure. They were a chain of those. And now, now they were going to be all family theaters, but they became people's tournament of porno cinemas. Pretty much. Do any of you have any insight stuff of why they fired them after all those years? You know, there was, I think the year before he was fired, he had a one, a director named Artie, Artie Forest. And he said, and he, you know, Jerry, you know,

he would introduce the cameraman, you know, the cue card guy if they made a mistake. It was a family. And the camera was following him around. He said, you know Artie, our fag director. Oh my God. And you know, if you're a 7-Eleven or the McDonald Corp or the Sunlin Corporation, you're not gonna like that. You know, he was getting a 7-Eleven or the McDonald Corp or the Sunlin Corporation, you're not

going to like that. You know, he was getting a little ornery, you know, and I think sponsors were starting to be a little schemish. And also, I think, if you remember after 9-Eleven, I think George Clooney and a bunch of stars put on a telethon on HBO and it was on all the networks. I think it ran for two hours and probably raised as much money as the whole telethon would. I think it sort of became a thing of the past.

They just didn't do it in a classy way. Also, you know, in the telethon, it was, as Bert said, you know, it was Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis Jr. You know, the later years it was Jack Jones. It was, you know, Maure, McGovern, you know, so the telethon was losing his luster. And so that was part of it. And, and Bert says it was the way it was handled.

You know, Jerry was the executive producer. You don't just tell him, he said, we're changing it to six hours without telling him. So that was the terrible part. You know, he did raise as Jerry would say billion, and that's with a B, not an M for Jerry's kids. Speaking of volatile comics, either one of you guys have any experience of Pat Cooper who turned 90 today or Jack Carter? Jeff, I'm looking at you.

Speaking of birthdays, shout out Gary Lewis is 74 today. It's also his birthday. Gary Lewis. Oh, we have to have him on the podcast. That'll just be depressing. No, I had a good experience with Pat Cooper. I met him when he was doing Playboy, when the Playboy Channel had a show called Comedy After Hours.

It was done like a round roundtable like Broadway Danny Rose. And I told him I had like what Bert said, I had one of your albums. You know, before eBay, if you went into a used record store and found an album, it was a big deal. You know, now you just sit in your pajamas. But I said, Pat, I have a couple of your albums. And I found them for him. And he was nice.

Had lunch with him at the Friars. He was great. We love him. But the story I heard about Jack Carter was, Jack Carter had the local show on NBC just before your show of shows. And the network gave all the ammo and all the promotion to Sid Caesar.

They said, you really can't have this guest on with saving it for Sid. So he kind of held a grudge and Jack Carter with a grudge is the ugliest thing you ever want to say. Les Nesteroff has great stories about Jack Carter. So they're at some party and Jack is just needling Sid. You know, Sid is like 90 and falling apart at this, not in good health, let's put it that way.

And he goes, you know, if it wasn't for you and Max Liebman keep me off the air, I could have been this. And Mel Brooks is there, he goes, Jack, you were a big star. Sid was a bigger star. It's 60 years. Let it go. I love it. Jeff, why in your opinion did everybody dislike Danny K?

I think George Carlin can sum it up best. He as a kid wanted to be the next Danny K, a performer who could literally do everything. And he went to see him at the Paramount Theater in New York. It's kind of a rainy day, comes back, goes out to backstage store. He's there with his autograph book and didn't even look at the kid. And he goes, here's a guy giving all his time and energy to UNICEF and wouldn't give me the time of day. Fuck Danny K. So- And George vowed that if he became famous, he would never,

he would absolutely treat his fans in exactly the opposite. Funny. It's like, uh, Frank and I have had, we've lost count of the amount of guests who've worked with Danny K and all hated him. Bernie Coppell and Jamie far for two. Oh yeah. I mean, I think, I think it was Bernie or Jamie would say he would, or somebody said, if you got to laugh, he would grab your arm and say, don't step on my,

I think I heard it here on your show. You know, he was also, like Jerry, one of those performers who could do everything. You know, he flew a plane, he performed surgery, he was a Chinese. Gourmet cook. Right, and Mel Tolkien tells a story, he prepares a gorgeous Chinese meal, he had a walk in his kitchen before anybody.

Somebody showed up five minutes late, he throws the entire food down the garbage disposal. These guys were just perfectionists and they wouldn't settle for second best. And I think they took it out on everybody. And another one we've had on the show who everybody hated, Joey Bishop. Well, Frank, we were saying about the great story and I think Gary Marshall told me this. Yeah, Bill Persky told us too.

It's the same story. Right. You know, in every episode of every sitcom, you always have to play the evil twin, usually in season three, where they run about ideas. And I think they're in a prison and one of the inmates looks like Joey Barnes. And Joey looks at the script and he goes, hey, why does he have more funny lines than I do? Either of you guys encounter Jessel in your travels?

No, before my time just missed him. He died in 81. So, you know, he made the book. Yeah. It is a shame that some of us, Frank, who may not like Jessel, but as someone who collects comedy recordings and has heard him on many Friar's roasts, including the Friar's events, including the Parky Carcass, he's brilliant. He really did have a way of words. He really was a master, you know?

And there's a great clip of him on the Mike Douglas show He did an old timers vaudeville show with Rudy Valley Molly Picon And Jessel and Jessel does hello mama and his it's he still had it up until the end favor him Gilbert He's there's such a Jessel fan Hello, mama Mama, it's your son your son, George The one that's into the, your son, George. The one that sends you the checks. Oh, yeah. Now you remember. Hi, mama. Did did you get that parrot?

I sent you you ate the parrot. But mama, that parrot spoke 10 languages. Oh, he should have said something. And how's your eyes, sweetheart? Are you seeing spots before your eyes? I will put your glasses on. Oh, you see the spots more clearly now. Wow, I thought I had a lot of free time. Before we get out of here, we'll plug the book generously. Again, Bert, tell us the Sammy and Frank story. If you can kind of condense it.

Just to condense it, again, we made friends with Sammy Davis when we were at A Current Affair. We sent Maury Povich over to the Albert Hall to interview him for his, it was his latest autobiography, I think it was called Why Me? And all Maury had to do was open the book and just read a chapter because the entire book was about sucking and fucking and devil worship and Maury would just read a chapter and just go, Sammy, Sammy, Sammy. And then Sammy would clap his hands and give that great laugh. Loved Sammy Davis. When he died, I got an invitation to his funeral and to the house afterwards. So I promised my boss, I said, look, let's get a hidden camera, get me a small camera and I'll get a picture of Frank Sinatra

over the box looking at his little buddy. And so, great. I go to LA. First off, it turns out the funeral is in public and it's being televised at Forest Lawn. And the hidden camera they give me is the size of a boom box. It was like, it was big. And so, I'm sitting there and I'm in like the eighth row.

Little Richard is on one side of me. Casey Kasem is on the other. And I'm trying to lift the camera to get a shot of the back. I see Sinatra's toupee like six rows ahead of me. And I'm trying to lift the camera up to get a shot of Sinatra in the back of his head and Sammy Davis' lawyer catches me and comes over and starts yelling at me at the funeral and little Richard's going, you got caught, huh? He's laughing. So the service ends and Jesse Jackson, I think, was at the pulpit and he says, you know, everyone will proceed to the back of the chapel when it's over and Sinatra gets up and he and his wife go out the front. Excuse me, I jump up and I grab the boombox hidden camera

and I run up the aisle and I burst through the doors and there's Frank Sinatra just getting into this limousine with Barbara and I lift up the big boombox hidden camera and I go, Mr. Sinatra. And I'm tackled by four forest lawn security guards. And I'm on the ground, I'm in the dirt and they're all holding me down. And Sinatra looks at me and we make eye contact. And he looked at me like I was a piece of dirt, like I was just some little speck of

shit that he didn't even notice. And he gets into the limousine, they shut the door, the limo goes up the hill, around the corner, disappears. Then all the forest long guys let me go. They wipe the dirt off their hands, they let me go. So I wound up at Sammy Davis Jr.'s house afterwards. And it was either, Liza Vannelli was there, a lot of celebrities were there. I met, it was either Cheetah Rivera or Rita Moreno.

I don't remember which one it was. I got them confused. But the lawyer- While you were grieving. Right. The lawyer kept following me around Sammy's house. And I'm like, I'm trying to get a lawyer away from me. So finally I locked myself in the bathroom and I go, wait a minute, glass eyes.

And I open up the medicine chest and I started going through the medicine chest looking for glass eyes. Didn't find one. And Sandy was the greatest. And Mara knows what he wants in life. Well, now I have to wait until one shows up on eBay. I'll shout out. I said when I started the interview, you're both very sick men. Gilbert, I met Herve Villaches.

You did? At Hard Copy. Too good. And again, I made the mistake of trying to be a comedian. He was, I guess we were doing an interview with him. I came down in the newsroom and one of the producers had him and he was standing up on one of the desks and he's got his leather jacket on, his motorcycle boots and his jeans and he's just standing there because he couldn't breathe the poor guy.

He was very sickly. I walk over and the producer says, Mr. Villaches, Herve, very nice to meet you. I shake his hand, how are you? She says, would you like an autographed eight by 10? And I said, no, but I'll take a four by five. And he looks at me and just, it was, it was his version of crickets, his, his breathing. I felt bad about that. You feel bad about it, do you? I felt bad about that. Oh my God. Jeez.

You feel bad about it, do you? I felt bad about it, yeah. Do you feel worse about that or searching for glass eyes in Sammy's medicine chest? Wow. The glass eyes are fine. Sammy wasn't going to need them anymore. He would have been at a great memento. And I will find one on eBay.

You'll see. Well, I know I'm going to die at my desk filling out cards for a Ronnie Schell interview. I don't know about that. Oh, yeah. All right. Does that count as dying in show business or dying in front of an audience? You know, I met William Shatner. You guys meet William Shatner?

I met him backstage at the Bay Har show and he was obsessed. He could not stop talking about Dick Shawn dying on stage. We try to get to Shatner He's you know, the busiest man in show business, but you know, I have an autograph from him that says Frank just wait. It'll happen So he's he's a man after your your guys hearts that's With performers who died on stage you should read out, you know pen Penn Gillette talks about he wants to go out that way Yeah, you know, Penn, Penn Jillette talks about, he wants to go out that way. Yeah, Penn figures just statistically, he probably will go out that way

since the amount of time that he spends on stage. Yeah. But it's interesting on our website, we have a dozen performers have died on stage so far. Since we handed in the book. No, since this year. Wild. Including two comedians.

Today, as a matter of fact, a Chinese mascot at an amusement park was dancing and I guess they're having a heat wave, he dropped dead while dancing. God. But he didn't make the book because it was only a rehearsal and he wasn't on stage yet. And you guys have standards. The book is wonderful. Gilbert's going to plug the book. And you guys, any other plugs? Burt, your website is a lot of fun. I found that great article about Richard Deacon and Joe Flynn, which I was reading at four in the morning. That's going to, that's going to be our next book in search of perfecto telus.

Great scandals. You guys come back and we'll do a whole perfecto telus episode. There's so much I didn't get to. So I'm Gilbert Gottfried. This has been Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast with my co-host Frank Santopadri. And today we've been talking to Jeff Abraham and Bert Kearns, whose new book is called The show won't go on. The most shocking, bizarre, and historic deaths are performers on stage. A great read. You guys are your fellow travelers.

We love you. Thanks for this. Terrific. The book is fun. And I've got about 15 cards here I didn't get to, so you'll come back and, you know, we'll talk about Red Buttons... And Shecky...

And Mickey Rooney... Hahaha! Grandpa Al... And Grandpa Al and Fred Gwyn and everything else... Sid Melton... And Sid Melton... Oh, yes! Hahaha!

We'll do another one. Guys, this was a blast. Thanks very much. Alright, I'll give you guys my Gene Baila story next time. Oh, jeez! Can you do it in like 30 seconds? The only man to ever refuse me an autograph, which I love, because now I have a story.

If he had signed the autograph, I wouldn't be talking about it. Tom Leopold ran into Gene Bailos at the Friars. You know that story. He said, how you doing, Gene? He said, I got a glass tube in my prick good night gentlemen tonight this again bye bye thanks for staying up we love you the costumes the scenery the the makeup, the props The audience that lifts you when you're down

The headaches, the heartaches, the backaches, the flops The sheriff who escorts you out of town The opening when your heart beats like a drum The closing when the customers don't come There's no business like show business Like no business I know You get word before the show has started That your favorite uncle died at dawn And top of that your partner have parted Your broken hearted, but you go on

There's no people like show people They smile when they are low Even with a turkey that you know will fold, you may be stranded out in the cold. Still, you wouldn't change it for a sack of gold. Let's go on with the show. Let's go on with the show. Gilbert Gottfried's amazing Colossal Podcast is produced by Dara Gottfried and Frank Santapadre with audio production by Frank Verderosa.

Web and social media is handled by Mike McPadden, Greg Pair and John Bradley Seals. Special audio contributions by John Beach. Special thanks to John Fodiatis, John Murray and Paul Rayburn.