Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Max Allan Collins and Dave Thomas

Episode Date: November 29, 2021

In one of their funniest and most wide-ranging episodes to date, Gilbert and Frank welcome author-mystery writer Max Allan Collins and actor-comedian Dave Thomas for an entertaining conversation about the influence of Mad magazine, the genius of Jack Webb, the strange passions of Raymond Burr, the rise and fall of Bob Hope, the war between Al Capone and Elliot Ness and Max and Dave's new science fiction/crime novel "The Many Lives of Jimmy Leighton." Also, John Cleese demands breakfast, Max impresses Warren Beatty, Gilbert cuts the rug with John Travolta and Dave weighs in on the horrors of "Joys" and "Jack Frost." PLUS: Fearless Fosdick! Senor Wences! "The Road to Hong Kong"! Remembering Tom Poston! Santa Claus meets Liberace! Max praises "A Night in Casablanca"! And Jerry Lewis (literally) transforms into Buddy Love! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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and you are listening to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast. Only in this universe. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. We're thrilled to have not one, but two fascinating guests this week. Max Allen Collins is a New York Times bestselling author, screenwriter, musician, and filmmaker who has written dozens of novels, comic books, comic strips, short stories, movie novelizations, and historical fiction. His graphic novel, Road to Perdition, is the basis of the Oscar-winning films starring Tom Hanks and Paul Newman. and Paul Newman. And his comics credits include the syndicated strip Dick Tracy,

Batman, and his own mystery and CSI crime scene investigation based on the hit series. He's been called the novelization king by Entertainment Weekly with tie-in books appearing nine times on the USA Today bestseller list and twice on the New York Times list. He's also written and directed five features and documentaries, including the Lifetime movie Mommy and the HBO world premiere The Expert. And his one man show, Elliot Ness, An Untouchable Life, was nominated for an Edgar by Mystery Writers of America, a lifelong fan of Mickey Spillane. He would go on to collaborate with the famed writer on a comic book called Mike Danger. And upon his death, he was entrusted to finish uncompleted works by Spillane, including The Big Bang and Murder My Love.

And also, this man claims he loved my work on Saturday Night Live in the 80s. So, I can already tell you this guy has a screw loose. And our returning guest, Dave Thomas, is a popular and prolific actor, writer, comedian, producer and director and one of the most inventive comedy minds of his generation. the most inventive comedy minds of his generation. You've seen him in films like Stripes, Rat Race, Coneheads, Strange Brew, which he even co-wrote and directed. You also know his work from hit TV shows like The Simpsons, King of the Hill, Shows like The Simpsons, King of the Hill, Weeds, Arrested Development, Grace Under Fire, and his own series, The Dave Thomas Comedy Show. And as a writer, he scripted episodes of acclaimed drama programs like Bones and The Blacklist and co-wrote the movie Spies Like Us. For five seasons, he was one of the writers and stars

of the beloved sketch comedy show SCTV, giving life to such unforgettable characters as Bill Needle, Tex Boyle, Harvey K. Tell, and Angus Kroc. He's also managed to win a Primetime Emmy and was nominated for a Grammy and receive a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Academy of Canadian Film and television, as well as an appointment to the Order of Canada, Canada's highest civilian award. And along with Henry Winkler, he's our only guest out of nearly 400 to have a statue erected in his honor. Their brand new novel and first ever collaboration

is the sci-fi thriller, The Many Lives of Jimmy Layton. And they're here to talk about it and to explain quantum physics to Frank and me. That should be easy. Please welcome to the show Max Allen Collins and Dave Thomas. Oh, and our special guest, Bob Hope, stop by. Hey, how are you kids doing? You know, I'm dead now.

The best thing about being dead is I don't have to wake up with Folgers in my cup. But, you know, I did a special here and Bob Hope lied from hell at a couple of generals that set off a 20 kiloton nuclear bomb in my honor. Isn't that wild? Isn't that wild? Yeah. Welcome, gentlemen. Welcome, Dave. Welcome, Max. Hey, how are you?

Hi, guys. Dave, welcome back. Max, welcome. And Gilbert, just to refer to something you said in the intro, yes, and welcome, Mr. Hope, Leslie Towns Hope. Yes, in fact, Max is a fan of your work on SNL. He may be the first one we've had. The only one.

I'm not a fan of my work. I knew you had something special, Gilbert. I had no idea what it was, but I knew it was special. So you liked my work on that season? We are the one. Yes. Boy, I can't watch anything from that season.

Well, let's be honest. You weren't surrounded by comedy legends. Well, he had Eddie. In a good way. You stuck out a good way. Well, he had Eddie. In a good way. Stuck out a good way. Well, yes. Yeah. Dave had his own adventures in that building, didn't you, Dave?

I did, actually. We got stopped in an elevator by security because we took the president of NBC's elevator instead of the one we were supposed to take, Rick and I, Moranis and I. Was that the adventure you were thinking about? I was referring to the new show, but we don't have to. Ah, the new show. We don't have to go there right off the bat,

although we did lose Buck since the last time you were here. That's true. What a sad, sad thing. What a wonderful guy. I also watched the new show. There you go. What a sad, sad thing. What a wonderful guy. I also watched the new show. There you go. Oh, you're the one. Right. Have you kind of got a fix on

how lonely a life I lead yet? Dave, on the subject of the new show, just quickly, I sent Max a couple of clips that you can find on YouTube. I mean, you're in every sketch. I know. They give him a lot of clips that you can find on YouTube. I mean, you're in every sketch. I know. They didn't have a lot of money. So I had to fill in for everybody, you know.

It was a sad, sad thing. It was in Lorne's hiatus between his two stints on SNL. And he really did nothing to help that show. And I remember there was a guy on the writing staff named Jack Handy. Oh, sure. Jack would write as Jack would come. Lauren's MMO is that he comes in about 7

p.m. and sort of hangs until, you know, seven in the morning. And that's everyone's supposed to stay there with him. Well, Jack, Jack's on a nine to five hours. Jack Handy would come in, write his scripts. He'd leave them on Lorne's desk and he'd leave at five. So he was making a statement, I think. Wow. You know, you look at the talent in that show. I'm watching the clips.

I mean, Catherine O'Hara and Carrie Fisher and Paul Newman, Paul Simon and Randy Newman and Jeff Goldblum and Ewan Buck and Gilda and Candy. I mean, and Steve Martin. It's an incredible amount of talent for a show that was so underserved and underloved. Well, we were out of 72 shows. We were 68th in the rating. How about that, huh?

I mean, Lauren reversed his success from SNL with the new show. Yeah. You can find it, though. Now, Dave, may I remind you, you directed a film called The Experts. Oh, yes. I know where you're going. Yeah. experts. Oh, yes. I know where you're going. And I want to give

the audience some time to go, how did I miss that one? Now, I remember I was flying from New York to LA to audition for the experts, and I was sitting next to former monkey band member

and heir to the Whiteout fortune. Liquid paper, technically. Yes, yes. Liquid paper fortune. Mike Nesmith, who is the monkey with the wool cap. And while I'm sitting there next to him, I take out the script and I'm like looking through it. And he says, hey, what's that script about? And I said, oh it's

these two hip cool guys who are kidnapped by Russian spies to teach them how to look hip and cool and infiltrate the country. And without taking a breath, Mike Nesmith says sounds like a piece of shit.

breath Mike Nesmith says sounds like a piece of shit and then a short time later two years or so later I run into this actor Ari Gross I think it was yeah and and I said to him, you know, I auditioned for the part you played in The Experts, and he said, consider yourself lucky. Oh, what a little weasel. We like to insult the guests, Dave, right off the top. Gilbert, your audition was probably one of the funniest auditions that I've ever seen. funniest additions that I've ever seen. I thought it was a pairing. You and Travolta would have been a pairing that would have become a cult favorite, but you know, the studio didn't want to do it and they actually didn't want Travolta either.

They didn't want me either, but they decided to go ahead and make the movie with all the people they didn't want. That is why it was such a hit. You and Travolta could have been another Wheeler and Woolsey. Yeah. Hey, I like Wheeler and Woolsey. He does, and he likes the Ritz brothers.

I got to team up with John Travolta, and look who's talking too. Oh, yeah. That's right, and dance. Now, Max, in addition to being a Gilbert fan, you were also a Dave Thomas fan. Oh, yeah. That's right. And dance. Now, Max, in addition to being a Gilbert fan, you're also a Dave Thomas fan, as anyone with any common sense would be. So that's basically my setup for the question, how the hell did you guys come together and come to work on this novel? Well, we had kind of met a couple of times. I had waylaid him in a non-sexual way

at San Diego Con one year, and he looked at me askance, I believe is the term. He's very nice, really, but I was just a crazed fan because to me, the SCTV bunch, they were the comedy Beatles. I mean, just, you know, I was absolutely a big fan, as they say. So then my wife and I went to the SCTV reunion that was part of the 50th anniversary of Second City in Chicago a couple years ago. And it was, we found out about it late. So it was very, very expensive to go. So I asked her, okay, it's going to be our 50th wedding anniversary. Do you want to go to Paris? Or do you want to go see the cast of SCTV in Chicago? And she said, oh, SCTV? Absolutely. And so that's, that's where we ended up going. And I did meet him there briefly and behaved myself very badly around all these people I admired. And then back at the San Diego Comic-Con a year or so later, Tom Kenny, for inexplicable reasons, is a big fan of mine.

So Spongebob, yeah, for inexplicable reasons, is a big fan of mine. And he knew that I was a big SCTV guy. And he came up to me and said, well, I'm going to have lunch next week with Dave Thomas. Why don't you come up to LA and meet him? And I said, I can't. I got to go. My wife and I are going back tomorrow night. I can't do it. And so he very nicely, sweetly had Dave call me on the phone just to say hello

and introduce himself. It was, it's a big, big thrill for me. It's been downhill ever since. Well, that's the thing. The big charm for me is until you meet me and then it all goes to hell. Oh, and Dave, let's talk about the jaw-droppingly horrible Bob Hope special by the name of Joys. Oh, Dave has something on this. Yes, yes. Oh, Dave has something on this.

Yes, yes. Well, okay, this was at a point in Bob's career and life when he couldn't, leaving the house was a big problem. Whoever suggested this show, I forget the guy's name, but he gets a credit at the end of the show. Bob immediately said, well, we could shoot this at my house. And that sealed the deal. Now, it was, I mean, I couldn't believe the star power.

And I watched it. Frank dared me to watch it. Oh, yeah. I did. I originally saw it when it came out. But that was so many years ago, I didn't really remember it. Frank dared me to get through five minutes of this show. That's the least you could do. It was a challenge, I got to tell you, because with all this star power,

there wasn't one laugh. And I called Frank afterwards and I said, you know, I think they shot that show after Bob died. And they just kind of propped him up and, you know, and that's. He still had his he wasn't as bad as the other one that you love where he plays Jack Frost

yeah yeah I mean then he was really old but here he was just very old and I always thought that Jack Frost was Dolores's revenge for all the times he's fucked around. Yes.

OK, so he should have been shot years before. Oh, yeah. I asked Bob when I was doing Bob Hope salutes the young comedians with him. And we had a I had a lunch where I just sat in the stage asking Bob questions. And I asked him questions. I asked him things that I always wanted to know, like, hey, how come you never played Vegas? You know, Hope looks at me and goes, well, why do you want to know?

And I was just like, well, well, I had heard that, you know, Dolores, being a devout Catholic, had some, and he gets mad and he says, she has no say in what I do. He had a little quaver in his voice there. Wow. And I said, hey, sorry. And Hope's mad now. And he says, I'll tell you why I never played Vegas. Hope's mad now. And he says, he said, I'll tell you why I never played Vegas. He said, around about 1960, I had this idea for a show where I'd be the highest paid entertainer to ever play Vegas.

And they never came up with the money. So I just said, screw them. And then, and then, and they never went there again. So that was his idea for a, that he would be the highest paid entertainer to ever play Meg. I don't know what the script for that would be like, but that was his idea for a show. What were you saying when he shot Joyce in his house, he pissed off everybody because he gave them a crappy box lunch? Oh, yeah, yeah. You told me that Steve Allen was particularly resentful. Oh, yeah. Okay.

He was famous for that. He did the show that Bob Salutes the Young Comedians, Bob Hope Salutes the Young Comedians, where he was too old to host, so NBC asked Crystal Bernard and I to host, and Bob would just kind of be on the show. And I remember, so I played him in the show, and I had a monologue in the show.

And he was going through the script with his daughter, Linda, who was the producer. And he said, this monologue of mine, he said, I think we could do, on the earthquake joke, you know, we could throw in the, I danced around the house, and then the house danced around me. And Linda said, well, Dad, that's not your joke. That's Dave Thomas' joke when he's playing you.

And he said, oh, yeah? They said, well, put it in anyway. If he's going to do me, he should do me the way I would do me. me and then and then there were the box lunches which everybody in the crew and and and and cast got the same lunch and i heard this was the same lunch they had on that other show and we open it up and look at it and go okay i think i could go without lunch today. Because it really is, like you said, you look at the list of celebrities on there and you think this has to be laughs from beginning to end. Can't miss.

And oh my God, it's deadly to watch. And I think the idea was because Jaws was big. So this was a play on Jaws instead of Jaws Joys. But it was... Wait, are we talking about the show that he shot at his house, which was the whodunit

detective thing? No, the one with the guy, there's somebody is found dead in the swimming pool. Yes. Shot at Bob's house. But it was supposedly a Jaws parody somehow. Okay, but that's it. From then on, there's no more reference to the ocean, sharks, Jaws, or anything. No, no.

It's just called a Jaws. Bad jokes. zero it was what bad jokes not until not until i read it did i get like oh jaws joys i guess it sounds similar no one no one of the millions of people watching would have caught this alleged joke and they got he still had clout then because they got Johnny Carson at the end to play the bad guy. He takes off his mask and it's Carson. And it's like, oh man, Johnny, poor Johnny. I bet he hated that. Well, Jesus Groucho's in the thing.

Max, I sent you the Jack Frost clip because I warned you that we were going to talk about this. Did you have a reaction? Yeah, I passed out. that we were going to talk about this. Did you have a reaction? Yeah, I passed out. It was amazing. But Dave and I have talked about Bob Hope quite a bit because, I mean, we both are genuine fans.

I mean, obviously, this comes from a place of love for Dave. And the idea that, you know, the Woody Allen idea that there's nothing funnier than a movie that he did in the late 30s, early 40s, even up into the 50s. What, you know, what a master. And then when you see this stuff, why did he stay? And we have to, at our age, wonder, are we staying at the party too long? Because this guy, you know, he worked to be what, 100? Yes.

Yeah. He did live to be a hundred yeah and he would have stayed on the air till a hundred if the network let him and and i the story is and i heard this from linda that dolores leaned over him and said dad we've told dolores said bob we've talked to the uh president and you can be buried in arlington or you can be buried out here in the Catholic cemetery in the valley. And Hope goes, yeah, I don't know. Why don't you surprise me? So he was still in there at least a little bit, wasn't he?

That's a good joke for a guy on his deathbed. Frank sent me a clip. It was a horrifying clip of Bob Hope entertaining at a college. You've seen this clip, Dave?

No. And talk about stayed at the party too long. It's sad. It's him bombing at a college in his 90s. Oh, he was in his 90s? At least late 80s. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, hard to watch.

On the subject of old comedy, we'll come back to the novel. But, Max, make your case that you made to me on the phone. Gilbert, Max is a fan. Well, he loves Jerry. He shares your love of Jerry. Absolutely. But I do not, and I want him to make his case for the Ritz brothers real quick. Oh, okay.

Why does a case need to be made for them? I don't understand the question. The real case is very basic. You got no Danny Kaye. You got no Sid Caesar. You got no Danny Kaye. You got no Sid Caesar. You got no Mel Brooks. You got no Jerry Lewis without Harry Ritz. And

you kids don't have a sense of history is your problem. That's the problem with this show. Yes. I noticed that. It's all this new shit. This new shit you come up with. We're the only podcast talking about Harry Ritz. only podcast talking about rock and roll music

and your hippie haircut and you're free to love why aren't you paying for it like the smart people dave i meant to ask you this too you know you do an imitation of bob Hope as, you know, we knew him most of his career as that like growling guy reading the giant cue cards. But do you also do an imitation of him when he was the young Bob Hope and he was nothing like that? It's really hard to do that, Hope. He was known then as Rapid Robert, and he's so fast that I can't get going that fast. I'd have to have the jokes ready to go, you know, like the Al-Qaeda, you know, they got the world convinced. No, see, I can't do it. I've got

to have the material in front of me to be able to do it that fast. There's at least four Bobs that I've seen you do, Dave. There's old Bob. There's dead Bob now that you brought up. I saw you do a Scottish Bob. That's right. I did another one on HBObo uh bob dice hope where it was like bob bob being really foul-mouthed you know and uh i i don't know but it but but you know he

used to just whip through his stuff so fast you You know, he'd be talking about Dolores. He'd say, you know, I told her to scatter my ashes at Neiman Marcus. You know, at least she'd visit me once a day. And then the audience would. And then he'd do the next thing. And this is where the classic Bob Hope Segway came, because Bob would hang, you know, for the audience laugh. Because Bob would hang, you know, for the audience laugh. But, you know, but I feel that, but, you know, these days, but seriously, folks, that's the one most people know. But seriously, folks. And then that was the hang while the audience laughed and then plow right into the next joke. So he was a real pneumatic piston joke driver in his youth. dramatic, piston joke driver in his youth.

And I remember the first time I met Carson, I was doing a Billy Crystal special at NBC, and they said, oh, Johnny's doing his Tea Time movies. Would you like to meet him? And I, God, yeah, Carson, I'd love to meet him. So they walk us down there, and Carson had heard about My Hope, and he was saying, and I was with John Candy and Rick Moranis the three of us were meeting Carson and uh Carson goes on he starts talking about hope he says you know he said you'll you'll you'll talk to hope and and you'll say you know Bob my mother

just died he'll and he'll just do a golf joke'll say, yeah, but I want to tell you. And I don't know why I did this, but I felt it was necessary to defend Bob. And I said to Johnny, I said, well, you know, John, he paved the way for the monologue. I mean, he was the guy who made the monologue something that comedians like yourself could do and I could feel Candy and Moranis fading back and it's just like okay Dave you want to take on Johnny Carson you out of your fucking mind and then Johnny just no no no no no no he backed off but I think there was a kind of a thing there later on after I did the cartoon show and he found out that I knew him and I got to have lunch with him and talk. And, you know, he sort of explained that, you know, overstaying your welcome was something that he thought was Hope's biggest transgression.

And he was absolutely determined never to do it himself. And he didn't so there you go and there's something else that i noticed when i watched uh a later hope and crosby movie where he had turned from the young energetic bob hope to the one that you do. That's the road to Hong Kong. You did that in 1960. And I remember I was 11 years old and I went to that movie after being an avid Hope fan from, you know,

Monsieur Boquer and, you know, all the movies that he did that were fabulous and funny. And I remember leaving the theater depressed because I just thought, well, that sucked.

That was a terrible... I'm sucked. That was a terror. I'm 11. That was a terrible movie. I cannot believe how he's disappointed me. He looked like he was reading the cue cards in that movie. He probably was. He probably was. But isn't it true that there's a lot of the great comics,

they don't work as older people? Because, I mean, Jerry Lewis is a kid. Bob Hope is this woman, you know, this kind of would-be Lothario. And most of these comics, when they cross a certain age threshold, the ones that had the movies where they did, you know, they had vehicles, it doesn't work anymore. And it gets embarrassing. Danny Kaye gets pretty bad, too. If you've ever tried to sit through The Man from the Diners Club, which is a Frank Tashlin movie, it's a chore.

So I assume when you say you were a fan of Jerry, young Jerry. Well, I had a good friend who said, the only thing funnier than Jerry Lewis at his best is Jerry Lewis at his worst. And I think there's some truth to that. That's profound. And what Jerry Lewis, when he did his, and this happened to Abbott and Costello and the Stooges and all our great comics, you know, it would have Jerry Lewis there, and he'd have a job helping out in a gas station cleaning windows.

And when he was young, that would be really funny. But you're going, oh, God, this guy's in his 60s, and he's got a job wiping windows. You know what the turning point for Jerry was? Yeah. The Nutty Professor. When he found the character Buddy Love, the cool guy that smoked the cigarettes

that men were afraid of and women wanted to be with, he never wanted to be anyone else. And that was the guy he played on his telethons for 20 years after that. Interesting. He believed he was Buddy Love. I remember in an interview, Jerry Lewis

said when he came up with that character, he goes, well, it scared me because I was wondering, is there any part of me that's like that character all of you all of you my god we will return to gilbert gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this

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It's a new season of Canada's Ultimate Challenge and sparks are gonna fly. New episodes Sundays. Watch free on CBC Channel. Let's talk about a couple of other early comedy influences, and I thought this was fun. Dave was a big Mad Magazine fan, and Max was a big Mad Magazine fan. In fact, Max, you made your own mad imitation, your own mad knockoff. Yeah, I did. I wanted to be a cartoonist initially, and I wrote a thing called Psycho Ward. Already, you know, I was like 12 or 13, already politically incorrect.

And I would take the one, it wasn't a copy, I would take the original, it was stapled, and I'd hand it around at the beginning of the, like Friday at homeroom and it would circulate around the school. And then somebody give it back to me at the end of the day. And so, yeah, I love Mad, but I'm so old that I remember it as a comic book. Sure. And it turned into a magazine and trying to get my parents to spend, you know, 25 cents on a magazine, you know, in the late 50s was a chore. I grew up on Mad. And those guys, Dick DiBartolo, Larry Siegel, you know,

those writers that wrote the movie parodies were my favorite. Lou Silverstone, Arnie Kogan, Stan Hart. Yeah, I love them all. And you, God bless you, gave me a chance to connect with Dick DiBartolo because I loved him, I think, probably better than all of them. My pleasure. I got a chance to connect with him and call him and talk to him this week, which was fantastic. I'm glad. You know, those guys had a real influence on a whole generation of comedians, I think. I grew up on that magazine. And we had one

on this show. Well, we had Dick and Al Jaffe here. Yeah, Al Jaffe. Al's 100. Yeah, Al Jaffe told the stories, and it just was fascinating. I mean, his life, his childhood was just horrible. Yeah, it's a sad story. You can hear that on the episode. But when you guys got on the phone together, and obviously, you know, before you started talking about the collaboration, you guys share a lot of passions. What did you start talking about? Did you start talking about hope, about mad, about SETV? What were the initial conversations like?

Because you do come from different worlds. Yeah, but we're about the same age. So we grew up at the same time. I mean, look at our, you know, you can't see it, but we have almost identical offices. Yes. Cluttered with books, Blu-rays, you know, statues, whatever. He's, you know, he's got his Emmys. I've got my, you know statues whatever he's you know he's got his Emmys I've got my you know best award from the Iowa Motion Picture Association pretty much gone. Hey I covet that award. Don't undersell yourself Max you're also in the Iowa Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I am in the Iowa Rock twice which I remind everyone in my band of that

fact regularly because they've only been in once. Oh, and Max, talk about another comedy team where you watch their later movies and go, I'm certain they were funny at one time. And that's the Marx Brothers. How awful their later movies were. Well, again, staying too long. Yeah. And although I watched A Night in Casablanca recently and thought it had its moments. Yeah, it's not bad. And that happens with a lot of these guys.

Like with Jerry Lewis, you'll be watching something just deadly, you know, like which way to the front. And then suddenly there'll be five hilarious minutes and that happens quite a bit even in like when he did hardly working which is the movie you're referring to gilbert where he's yeah he's been you know he but but he all there's also a moment where he he's in an art gallery and he opens up a porthole on the wall and gets hit with a million gallons of water and it's hysterical and for 15 seconds 30 seconds he's jerry lewis yeah when you watch that you go oh there's the jerry i want exactly yeah the bellhop for example he did a thing he knocked a glass off a table and caught it yes yes and i i remember looking at that and I'm going, whoa, I wonder how many takes they had to do to get that.

And there's a scene, I think it's in the errand boy or the, might be the patsy, where he meets up with Hans Conrad. And it's my favorite clumsy setup for a joke where they say to Jerry, now he's a music teacher. And not only is he the greatest music teacher in the country, but he has the world's largest collection of priceless antiques. Where is that going? Oh, God. Let us, I got some really interesting stuff written down here, and we'll come back to funny people. But I got to ask Max about some of the non-comedic icons and legends he's written about.

Gilbert and I were on the phone, and Elliot Ness is a character and a person that fascinates us. He was hilarious. His early stuff. Yeah, the earlier stuff. A little bit later. Capone never thought he was that funny. What were you saying on the phone, Max, that we forget, when we think of these guys as legends and as larger than life, we forget how young they were. Oh, incredibly young. Elliot Ness, when he takes over the Untouchables and he's already been a federal officer for maybe four years, is 27. Oh, my God. 26 or 27.

And Capone at his height is 29. Oh. Yeah. So these are street gang kids who just moved up a little bit. And they usually started out as street gang kids and then just kind of worked their way up the ladder. And then, of course, Prohibition happened and that just gave everybody a license to steal, literally. a license to steal literally the, the part of Al Capone's life that fascinates me the most is, is his late years.

Oh yeah. When he's riddled with syphilis. Yes. He went crazy from syphilis. Yes. He would, he would, you know,

he'd sit at a swimming pool in Miami and fish in the swimming pool. I mean, he, he was gone, although he could be, He would sit at a swimming pool in Miami and fish in the swimming pool. I mean, he was gone. Although he could be lucid at times, like Dave and me. You guys have a Capone-Ness dynamic, I think. Yeah. The problem with us is we're both Ness. I've worked with some non-comedic legend.

I did a movie with Chevy Chase. He gets such a bad rap. Everybody's into beating up on Chevy. And I actually love him. And here's why I love him. Because Chevy has this reputation of being a jerk. But he wasn't a jerk just to the people below him on the set and the crew who could hurt him. He was a jerk to everybody, like the presidents of studios.

Here's a great example. I don't know if anyone's ever had the balls to tell this story, but I will. Chevy was at a $1,000 plate dinner for Michael Eisner. And, you know, he told them in advance he's not a stand-up. He said, I'm not a stand-up. He said, don't worry. He said, well, you've got some stand-ups that are going to be on the day. I said, yeah, but, you know, you're just going to get up and say hi to Eisner.

So Chevy says he gets there, and, you know, Robin Williams gets up. Oh, oh, look at me. Oh, Mr. Happy. And then, you know, Billy Crystal gets up, and, oh, look at me. Oh, Mr. Happy. And then, you know, Billy Crystal gets up and he goes, I don't know. I like you. Why don't you like me? And he does his thing. And then Chevy Chase, ladies and gentlemen, Chevy gets up and he goes, Jesus, you know, I got nothing.

He goes, I'm not a stand up. I don't do stand up comedy. And these guys get up and, you know, Billy does his Catskill sing and, you know, Robin, who I don't even know how to describe what you do. And he turns in this awkward moment and looks at Michael Eisner, who's sitting right there at waist level with Chevy. And Chevy turns to him and looks out at the audience and said, how many of you people would like to see me piss in this guy's mouth right now? Half the audience went apeshit nuts and the other half gasped.

Wow. Wow. So I love him for that. He's ballsy. You know what I mean? He just, he couldn't edit himself ever. And he said terrible things to me, and I've just laughed because I'm just thinking,

yeah, well, at least you're not pissing in my mouth. I'm going to go back to Ness in a second, but Dave, since you're telling stories, since you're going for it, can you tell Max and Gilbert the Richard Pryor story when you guys were on the movie Moving? Okay. That's a great story. So Richard Pryor hated white people, So Richard Pryor hated white people, okay? That's just a fact. And I'm sure he would be the first to admit it. So I played his boss in this movie that I did with him called Moving. And there was a scene where we were going to be shooting in this car where I'm driving or he's driving, I don't know, but the car gets wrecked. And it was like a week.

We're going to be in this car for a week towed by a camera car. And I'm like, oh God. And he's not talking to me. And we're sitting there silently. And, you know, it's the first day of the car shoot. And I could see the crew, they're all sitting in the, in the truck in front of us. That's towing us. Alan Meador was the director, and they all got headphones on. And we're mic'd so they can hear us. And so there's a palpable silence as I'm sitting across from Richard, and I thought, okay, I'm either going to get fired or I'm going to get a laugh. I don't care which at this point.

And I turned to Richard, and I said, hey, Richard. He turns back at me kind of argumentatively. What? And I said, is it all de-live long day or all de-live long day? And he burst out laughing and he said, you are one ballsy motherfucker.

And I said, hey, look man, fire me, laugh, I don't care, but don't just sit here silently with me for a whole week. I can't take it. And I could see the camera crew just gasps when I said that. It was like, oh, no, holy shit. Anyway. And that was our first telephone conversation.

Just like that. He actually liked Gilbert, Dave. I don't know why you rubbed him the wrong way. I worked for two weeks on the last of the, it was horrible, the last of the Gene Wilder, Richard Pryor movies. And he treated me like he was a starstruck little kid meeting, like, the biggest movie star. He couldn't have been nicer to me. Another SNL fan.

Yeah. Right. Yeah, he said, I loved that season from 80 to 81. I don't care what anyone says. That was a good season. And I loved your funky monkey. You invoke that out of people, though, Gilbert. I mean, I treated you that way when you came into audition for The Experts.

He does. People love you. People just love you. Come on. He does. He's beloved. He's shy. There's no point in going back to Elliot Ness, but I will ask one question of Max.

Max, closer in reality to the Costner portrayal or the Robert Stack portrayal, in your opinion? Actually, they both have elements that I think really were faithful. really were faithful. Stack actually talked to Ness's wife and did some work and became something of an expert on him. The big myth about Elliot Ness has become that he didn't do anything, that he was nobody. But in fact, as we dug into it, I had a co-author, Brad Schwartz, as we really dug into the research, he was pretty much for real. And even when there's a very famous newsreel footage of Ness being taken to the train to go to the Atlanta penitentiary. And Ness is right there with him. And it's the only footage we have of him.

But Ness was the guy that put him on the train. Did he die in debt? Well, pretty much. He died. He was probably an alcoholic. At least he was a real drinker, which is one of the wonderful ironies, obviously. I mean, here's the world's most famous prohibition agent, and he was an alcoholic. But for him, it was never about alcohol being bad. It was that prohibition had opened the door on all of this organized crime. And so

he wanted to really take apart organized crime. And that's what that was about. And all those actors were like twice the age of Elliot. Yeah. Except our friend Dave Thomas played an Elliot Ness character on The Simpsons. Rex Banner. That's true.

And I was still, I was three times their age at that point. I want to do a shout out to a guy who played Capone in the TV series. You guys probably don't know this, but there was a TV series about The Untouchables that was, I don't know, in the 90s or something. And it was on, I think it was the cw or whatever the cw was before it was the cw remember that yeah okay william forsyth do you know who this is oh he played flat top and dick tracy yes he played capone and he was great he did a fantastic Capone. The guy who played Frank Nitti, who I knew a little bit, I was on the set of that a couple of times. The same show I'm talking about? Yes, yes. I was there.

Because I had an Elliot Ness novel out at the time, and they took me to the set so that we could do some cross-promotion. And he was a very good Frank Nitti. Although Frank Nitti's real name was Frank Nitto. I don't know how it kind of evolved into being Nitti in all the popular culture. But that was a pretty good show. And the characters there were a little bit younger. The actors were a little bit younger. I don't imagine Forsythe was older than about maybe 35 at the time. Oh, yeah. He was young.

Didn't Ben Gazzara play Capone at some point? Yes. Ben Gazzara, two actors who are favorites of mine, Ben Gazzara and Rod Steiger. Oh, Steiger, right. Oh, yes. Very good. That must have been a subtle portrayal. That was a Corman production, and it wasn't a terribly high-budget production, obviously, because it was a Roger Corman production. And meanwhile, Ben Gazzara looked like he weighed 140 pounds.

That's right. That's right. That's right. Max, since Dick Tracy was brought up by me, actually, you took over the strip when Chester Gould retired. Right. And first of all, quickly, what was Chester Gould like? Because you corresponded with him. Yeah, I had corresponded with him as a child, actually. When I was eight years old, I wrote him and said, when you stop doing the strip, could I start?

I love that. And then eventually that's what happened, although there were a few steps in between. He was very flinty. He was very much like Dick Tracy. And I think the best thing I can say is I was there and we were at his house and a friend of mine who was a fan, we came downstairs after we'd stayed overnight with him, and Chet said that he had some originals for us. And then he had a little stack of originals.

He says, now you can have two or you can have one. That's the only time. So he wasn't like the soul of generosity uh but i and my wife does that to me all the time you can have two or you can have one that's funny that's funny what did chester gold think of fearless fosdick he pretended to like it because the fact was that any time Al Capp did Fearless Fostick and Little Abner, papers picked up Dick Tracy. Because you can't, Mad Magazine again, you can't understand the satire unless you know the reference. Parody doesn't work without the reference. So he made money off of Fearless Fostick.

But every now and then he'd say to me, enough is enough. I love that. I also bring up Dick Tracy because someone, Max was a consultant on the Beatty picture. And you did some writing of the novelization. You did something in the Dick Tracy novelization that got Beatty's attention. Well, that was the most micromanaged production in history. And all of the licensing stuff was very micromanaged. In fact, when they did the comic book, which I didn't do, Beatty had approved three different heads for Dick Tracy to be used on all, pasted in on all the drawings, all the artwork.

So if you ever saw that comic book, you'd see just three different drawings repeated endlessly. And I had a phone call after I turned the novelization in, and the producer of the film, who was not, it wasn't Beatty, it was the other guy, I forget his name, but he was a big shot. He was the producer of the various Lord of the Rings movies. So he was big time. Okay. And he, they were asking me why I had made certain changes in the novel. And one of them was, one of them was, why did, why did you write this so that Tess Trueheart, Dick Tracy's sweetheart, why did you write it so that her mother liked Dick Tracy? Because in the original script, she hated Dick Tracy, was trying to break her

daughter up with Dick Tracy. And I said, well, because in the strip, the beginning of the strip is Dick Tracy solving the murder of that woman's husband. So she likes him. And anybody who's familiar with the history of the strip, when they get to that scene, they're going to know it's wrong. So they actually reshot the scene. It was Estelle Parsons. And then I ran into her. I'd never met her. I ran into her at the premiere in Disney World. And I introduced myself and said, you had to reshoot one of the scenes, didn't you? And she said, yes. I said, it was because of me. Well, this stranger, how could it be because of you? And then I told her the story and that's why they did it. But it was, it was a crazy experience. They made me leave the ending off

the book. I know, I know. Yeah. They made me me because they thought that the idea that madonna was the bad guy was the blank was a big surprise i think people probably knew it in the credits right it wasn't much of a surprise no and so they had me write a whodunit that did not reveal whodunit and then it's my best-selling book i have a connection with ticturation what is that bill i i was up for the part of mumbles and of course they were talking to me like oh this is it you're the only person we could see doing this role and then somewhere along the way way they said they're not going with you and i said who are they going with and they said dustin hopman so like me and dustin hopman were running neck and neck for this one it's like the only way i could be mentioned in the

same sentence with dustin hopman is i've seen g Gottfried's acting, and he's no Dustin Hoffman. So you didn't get Dick Tracy, and you didn't get the experts. Yes. Gilbert, have you ever been in a movie? It's been an asshole. Did Beatty call you on the phone, Max? There's a story there too. Well, first I should mention that I was at a junket for down there in Disney World.

And Dustin Hoffman was standing right next to me. I personally, as an SNL fan, I had wished it was Gilbert Gottfried. Almost Gilbert. But it was Hoffman. And I told him, I said, well, I put Mumbles in the strip because I was putting all this stuff from the movie in the strip. And it was, I had the newspaper there and he read me my daily strip as Mumbles. And you told me he was doing Robert Evans. I heard that.

I heard that he had, and we'll double check that, but he was working some of Robert Evans into that portrayal. He definitely played Robert Evans in Wag the Dog. Wag the, yeah. Well, the Beatty thing is, as we were getting ready to go into the theater, he stopped me and he said, I've been wanting to talk to you. And I said, really? He says, you're going to get a phone call from me. Don't be surprised when the phone rings. I've been sitting by this fucking phone since 1990. Warren Beatty has not called.

No. Here's a question from a fan on that subject will harris a listener uh max which classic dick tracy villain did you most enjoy reviving for the strip well i actually did for the strip uh we did prune face uh-huh we did prune face he had uh he had been frozen to death back in the 40s and we thought him out and i did a lot of jokes like him being mistaken for Ronald Reagan and stuff like that. And it was because I like to do the humor stuff, guys. Here's one for you, Dave. Jeffrey Westhoff, how does Dave feel about that Bob and Doug statue in Edmonton? Is it surreal for him?

Has he seen it in person? I don't know. I mean, tonight I heard that Henry Winkler has a statue. He does. Yeah, that pisses me off because I thought Rick and I were the only ones who had statues in the comedy world, and now Winkler's got one. So now I feel like they can go ahead and take it down. I feel like, you know, Robert E. Lee. Robert E. Lee, take my statue down. Who cares?

Oh, and Dave, have you seen the infamous original statue of Lucille Ball? No. Oh, we're going to send it to you. Oh, it is from a monster movie, this thing. Well, if it was old, Lucy, then it was faithfully rendered. Max, when I was watching those scenes, there's a lot of guest stars working without Pacino. And I always wondered, were they in the same room together? Well, I wasn't on the set, but I think they were.

Pacino was at the, I believe Pacino was at the junket. So everybody was interacting. Yeah. I mean, I've heard that rumor, but what is it? What is the Michael Mann movie that De Niro and... Oh, Pete. interacting. Yeah. I mean, I've heard that rumor, but what is it? What is the Michael Mann movie that De Niro and. Pete. Pete. Yeah.

They weren't together. It's like one scene. They're allegedly together, but you never see them in the same shot. The restaurant scene, right? Yeah. Kate Mantellini's, I think the old restaurant. Yeah. Beverly Hills. You see a shot of De I think, the old restaurant in Beverly Hills.

Yeah, you see a shot of De Niro, then a shot of Pacino. Never together. That's a great movie, though. It really is. He's a hell of a director. Here's another one for you, Dave, from David West. Would Dave by chance have any good Rowan Atkinson or John Cleese tales to tell? Here's a John Cleese story.

Because you were in rat race with him. We were in rat race, and I became friends with him. I played his lawyer. And so they were flying us home from Calgary. We shot in Calgary, shot in Las Vegas, and we shot in L.A. So they were flying us home from Calgary, and they had John and I in the same car and on the same plane. And so when we get to the airport, it was a morning flight.

They had one of those airport concierge people meet us, you know, to help incompetent actors find their airplane. And she made the mistake of saying to Cleese, can I get you anything? And Cleese looks at her and he goes, yes. I'd like to have a proper English breakfast before I fly. And she said, excuse me? He says, you do know what a proper English breakfast is, don't you? I mean, you know, tea, eggs, bacon, toast, tea, marmalade, a proper English breakfast.

And she said, well, I mean, I think the only thing open is maybe Jack in the Box. He said, you mean to tell me in a city of this size, Calgary, Alberta, Canada, 860,000 people, that you can't find a proper English breakfast at the major airport in that city? That's not acceptable. She runs off. And I looked at John. I said, what the fuck is wrong with you? Why did you do that to her? He said, I don't know. She seemed like she wanted to have

something to do. He would play with people like that. Hilarious. Hilarious. Now, Dave, are you aware of the Quincy Jones accusation of the sexual encounters between Marlon Brando and Richard Pryor? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah. That's pretty damn shocking. Yeah, he said Brando and Pryor would get coked up and fuck each other. With David in the car.

David was there being towed. And while Brando was fucking prior, Brando would be on bottom saying, hey, you know that season of Saturday Night Live with Gilbert? We're a small but hearty group, Gilbert. I'm losing control of this show, so we're going to go to a Gilbert impression. Now, Max, reading about how Maltese Falcon was an inspiration, I think, for Heller.

Right? That's right. Yeah, your Heller series. By the way, the film is 80 this year. Ah. Well, the specific inspiration for me, the Nate Heller books are historically, they're privatized stories, but they're all about historical crimes, usually unsolved ones. So I've done, you know, I've done things like the Lindbergh kidnapping and the assassination of Huey Long and so on. Well, what inspired it was I was teaching the Maltese Falcon,

and I looked at the indicia page, and it said it was copyright 1929. And I thought, oh, 1929, that's the St. Valentine's Day massacre. That means Al Capone and Sam Spade were contemporaries, essentially. So then I thought, oh, well, then I don't have to do period private eye. I can actually put the private eye in history. And so that was the inspiration. But one time, one of the audio books, some guy did Bogart for the whole six hours. Wow.

And it was so unintentionally hilarious that I was given six copies of it, and I very carefully chose my six best friends. It could have been enemies, but I gave it to my six best friends and said, this is how it, you know, if you haven't been listening, you know, if you haven't read my stuff, this will give you a chance to kind of catch up. And it was a hit. It was a big, big hit. I love to hear that. He was shitting on the couch.

Unbelievable. Six hours of Bogart. There was a TV movie about Bogart and Bacall, and I forget the actor who played Bogart, but I guess he wanted to avoid being like a nightclub comic imitation of Bogart. So he completely avoided sounding like Humphrey Bogart. And it's like in the movie, he's like uh hey i'm uh filming casablanca now that's so great well they had they had david soul play play uh play bogey or i guess he played rick blaine in a casa in a casa he played his character in a casablanca gilbert give him a little Joel Cairo, these boys. Oh. No, it's you who handled it. You, it's your stupid attempt to buy it.

Kevin found out how valuable it was. No wonder we had such an easy time getting it. You idiot. You bloated fathead. There's a big call for that today. My favorite line in Casablanca that I always thought if I had to make a trailer for the movie, it would just be that line. And that's where he's going to turn in Wilma, who was Elijah Cook Jr. He's going to turn them in as the fall guy.

And Sidney Greenstreet says, I love Wilma like a son. But if you lose a son, it's possible to have another. But there's only one Maltese Falcon. That's right. Did you guys expect to get Sidney Greenstreet tonight? Maltese Falcon. That's right. That's right. Did you guys expect to get Sidney Greenstreet tonight? No, he could do that all night long as far as I'm concerned.

But you know, there is a 1931 film that is not bad. There are two. Two Maltese Falcons. We talked about it. Yeah. Yeah. The one with Betty Davis is really bad. It's like it's not the Falcon. It's some kind of goat horn or something.

And the Cindy Greenstreet part is played by a woman, Alison Skipworth. It's pretty bad. She has one of the best lines. Yeah, there's one that I think it's Ricardo Cortez. Yeah, that's the first one. Who was a Jew's Ricardo Cortez. Yeah, that's the first one. Who was a Jew, Ricardo Cortez? He was a Jewish boy. I think his name was Artie Krantz.

And he was a good-looking Jewish boy. And they said, you know what's popular now? Like Rudolph Valentino and Latin lovers. And they changed his name to Ricardo Cortez. What were you going to say, Dave? I can't remember that. Something off Betty Davis. I know.

Oh, Betty had the, I thought the best line. Somebody was, a young actress was asking her for advice. Can you give me some advice on the business? And she says, yeah, take Fountain. Which I think is a great joke. If you know LA streets at all, or Hollywood streets, that's a good joke. Tell you, I live in Iowa, and I got it. There you go. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast.

But first, a word from our sponsor i heard a story about bob hope when he do those uso tours you know they always have some sexy actress or modern you know raquel welch joey heatherton and well first of all i'll give you a chance to do this line. I'm sure you know it. How would he introduce every sex symbol to the troops? He goes, ladies and gentlemen, here's a gal, a gal that you're going to love. You're going to want a little piece of this action. I'll tell you right now. I'm not exactly sure. Was that where you were thinking of?

No, there was a line he used to do. He'd say to the troops, and he'd go, just want you boys to see what you're fighting for. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. I heard Bob Hope, if the actress wouldn't fuck him, the sexy actress, he'd threaten to leave them in the jungles of Vietnam. That they don't leave.

They pack up and leave her there. And they deserved it. They really did. I heard that. I heard that, too. I ended up having a – I spent time with his writers because they like my impersonation of Bob. And, you know, I would go out for dinner with him and go out for lunch with him. And so I heard a lot of stories about hope that aren't in the sort of public sort of parlance or whatever, you know, and I started to get confused as to what's true, what's real,

what's rumor, and what's actually stuff that his writers told me because they were there, you know? I heard a story that, you know, Bob Hope would think nothing of calling his writers at three o'clock in the morning that's true yeah and going yeah i need a nixon going to china thing and they'd have to get up and write and i heard us there was one story that a writer was in bed with his wife and late at night the phone rang and and the writer said to his wife just you answer if it If it's Bob, I'm not here. And she answers the phone. Sure enough, it's Bob Hope.

And he goes, yeah, I want to talk to Irv. And she says, oh, he's not here, Bob. And he goes, well, you know where he is? And she goes, well, actually, Bob, when he was leaving, he told me he was going to your house. And immediately Bob Hope goes, ah, gee, I'm sorry. There he is now. He just walked in.

Yeah. That's sort of like the hound's code. Bob was a hound, and he believed that he had to protect all other hounds, you know. Fantastic. But, you know, on the story of him calling his writers at three, four in the morning, there was always the communication in the early days that was a difficult thing. How does he get the material? You know, does somebody handwrite it down? Jeff Barron, who was one of his writers, told me this, that when Hope first saw the fax machine, he said, what's that? He said, well, that's a fax machine. What does that do? He said, well, you know, you can put a script in it and you can use the telephone line to, he said, get out. You could do that with that? He says, I want every one of my writers to have one of those and I want one for myself at the

house. And that was it. And it became the bane of the writers that he could get them and they couldn't say, oh, we put it in the mail or you didn't get it yet. You know, because it was like Bob was standing over his fax machine waiting for the jokes to come. Now, somebody told me, I hope it's true, that like Hope and Crosby were on tour with this girl singer. And the girl singer had a very anglicized name, but she was Jewish. And she said they were constantly making anti-Semitic remarks. Well, I wouldn't be surprised.

I mean, you know, first of all, nobody was politically correct back then. And so, you know, you do Pollack jokes, you do this, you do that. You know, there was no rules or anything like it, but I've heard stuff like that. But, you know, all of Hope's writers were Jewish, and Hope really did love his writers. I know there's stories about him throwing the check up the balcony, but I talked to a couple of writers that were there for that,

and they just, no, no, that was a joke. We didn't grovel for our money. He paid us well and treated us well. Cause he knew that without his riders, he was nothing. And you know, so I, I don't know. I don't know where the line in the sand is. I think that if you were a woman and you had a good body and hope got a chance to get close to you, watch out. But if you were Italian or if you were Jewish or whatever, but if you were funny and you could write jokes for him, he'd pay you and he was your buddy. Hey, Frank, I want to circle around just for a minute because you were talking about Dave not doing the young Bob Hope, but he certainly could do the young Bob Hope. And like Mad Magazine, SCTV did a classic, classic sketch

on Fantasy Island. And that's really, I think, was a breakthrough sketch, as Dave has mentioned, for SCTV because it did some ambitious things that hadn't been done before. It was multi-layered. And up to that time, you know, even on show of shows and some of the comedy shows that came before us, I'd never seen a show that started out as a parody of Fantasy Island and then it went to Casablanca and then, you know, and then it went to Casablanca, and then it went to Wizard of Oz. It had all these other movies sort of beat into one concept. And when Joe Flaherty and I wrote that, and when we were done with the script, we thought nobody in Hollywood would ever let us shoot this,

but we got to shoot it because this is pretty cool. That's a great sketch. but we got to shoot it because this is pretty cool. That's a great sketch. And there was another great sketch with Rick Moranis called Play It Again, Bob. Oh, yeah. Classic. Wonderful.

Well, Rick and I actually improvised most of that into a tape recorder, into one of those little handheld tape recorders. And he was so good at Woody. And I was way better at channeling Bob back then than I am now. And I was talking to Paul Flaherty, Joe's brother, who about a month ago, who reminded me, he said that I was like laying on a couch with a newspaper over my face, channeling Bob Hope newspaper over my face channeling Bob Hope as as if he was dead and they said it was hysterically funny and they wish that they could have taped it and I wish I could have taped it too because you know I don't remember doing it and I don't remember all I remember is that I had a more of an ease of doing him than I do now. Well, because I'm old now.

And back then, you know, and Moranis was so fast. God, he was just like, you know, he could do Woody and he could do references. And it was amazing. It's a wonderful sketch. So is the one that Max brought up, the Fantasy Island. And as an excuse, we'll have Gilbert do a little of his Herve Villachez. Go ahead, Gil. Oh, yes.

I do Herve Villachez in Scent of a Woman. Oh, your name is Daphne. I could tell because you use Chanel No. 5, and you have a southern accent. That's how we're going to get Pacino on the show, Gil. Max, do you want to talk about, you wrote down Jack Webb when I asked you some fun things you'd like to talk about. Anything about Jack Webb, or do you want to talk about, you wrote down Jack Webb when I asked you some fun things you'd like to talk about. Anything about Jack Webb or do you want to tell us about meeting Raymond Burr at his house?

I want to hear Raymond Burr. Oh, wow. Well, I didn't actually meet Raymond Burr at his house. He was doing the Perry Mason TV movies in Denver. doing the Perry Mason TV movies in Denver. And he lived in an apartment in a hotel that was half hotel and half residential. I stand corrected. Very close, though.

He was living there. And at least during the making of these movies. He made about four a year, I think. And he wanted to do a book. And so I got to meet him. And he was a wonderful guy. I mean, he was, and I talked to him about anybody like Jack Webb, I talked to him about. I believe he and Jack Webb had a falling out because he said, yeah, he said, Jack Webb's a very bad man. And he was somebody who was in all of Jack Webb's early stuff. So I have a suspicion. I don't know what it was, but I still love Jack Webb because he really invented modern television.

I mean, he was the all those radio people tried to cart what they did over to TV. And only Webb and I would argue Jack Benny were able to just say, we'll do it on TV and it'll work. Almost nothing else worked. But Webb was kind of an amazing filmmaker. I heard a wonderful story about him and Stephen Cannell, where Cannell was writing, I think, what's the, it's that picture back there, What's the, guys, it's that picture back there, the TV show about the two cops driving around aimlessly. Adam 12? Yeah, Adam 12.

I've frozen that. Two cops driving around aimlessly. That's hilarious. They're not on calls. They're just driving around aimlessly. That's all that I got from it. But Cannell was writing it with him and Cannell would work at like in Webb's study and they'd work all morning and then

about 11.30, Webb would get furious with him over something and just absolutely tear him a new asshole. And then they'd leave and go for lunch. And then they'd come. Not together. And then he'd come back after lunch and Webber would be like, well, let's get going. Let's start now. Everything's fine.

Completely forgotten. Wow. Every day he tore him a new asshole. Before lunch. That does sound like it does. I heard Raymond Burr. It was all what he wanted to do with Ironside. He was originally supposed to be a regular detective, but he didn't want to stand around all day.

So they wrote, they made up this story that he was shot and he's in a wheelchair. that he was shot and he's in a wheelchair. And so not only did he sit through all those episodes, but he wanted all of his dialogue up on cue cards. That's true. How about that? He was really good at it. Remember William Conrad in Canon? Sure.

Yeah. Quinn Martin. 90% of his shots are sitting in his car. He was heavy and you could tell he just didn't walk, but there would be long dialogue scenes with, was shooting down at him in his car and up at the person talking to him. And I remember watching that laughing and going, uh, I got a parody that one day, but I didn't know. I wish I had.

Max, when you went to Burr's house, did he answer the door? Did you tell me where he was staying? He was wearing a railroad uniform? Well, I know. A model train? I was always, you know, I always loved Perry Mason

and I was very excited about meeting Raymond Burr, but it's a little intimidating. So I knock on the door and the door opens and there he stands, not sitting, Gilbert, but standing. One of its rear standing. Totally dressed as a railroad engineer. With a hat.

And I step in and he welcomes me in and he's got model train stuff all over his apartment going from one room to another. Incredibly elaborate. And he had a little oil can. And that was a hobby of his. I love that he put the uniform on. He was insane then. I mean, there can't be any other reason for that. I mean,

it's one thing to have model trains, but to dress up in the uniform and have an oil can, that's nuts. And honestly, Dave, I know you and I keep it to one room. Yeah. One room of model trains. That's all we need. I love those clumsy

scenes in Godzilla where they wanted to Americanize it so they have they put in raymond burr in his hotel room looking out the window going you know and now godzilla is tearing apart a bridge well you know he went back and shot another Godzilla movie when it was like the 30th anniversary of Godzilla or something. And they made another movie and they brought him back to do exactly the same thing. And you could tell it was like shot in like an hour. But there's a dream come true for Burr. Because there he is standing, looking out a window, commenting on a miniature set with HO gauge railways.

And it's just watching all those trains getting torn apart by a big rubber monster. What a dream come true for that man. Absolutely. It's scale, but there's lots of toy trains. We will come back to the many lives of Jimmy Layton in just a second as we wind down. But Dave, you and I were discussing your old friend, Tom Poston. Yeah. His 100th birthday.

I guess it's a centenary just passed last week. And he was a guy that you had a lot of fondness for. I loved him. A comedy legend as far as we're concerned. So this is a story that I told at his funeral, and I probably shouldn't have, but I did anyway. And Suzanne Plachette, he was married to her at that time. It was funny because they both got together.

They had had an affair in the 50s when they were doing a Broadway show. Then they married other people. She was with Troy Donahue and he married somebody else. And then their spouses died and then they get back together when they're in their 70s or something. And it was wonderful. I remember when we went out for dinner, my wife and I went out for dinner with Tom and Suzanne, and she said, we're gonna get married and we said oh great congratulations how did that happen and she said to tom i'm not she

had quite a mouth on her she said i'm not getting i'm not gonna i'm not gonna fuck you unless you give me a rock and i mean a big fucking. So Tom went out and had a piece of gravel mounted by a jeweler on an expensive setting and put it in a little box, and he took her out to dinner and got down on one knee and gave her this, and we said, and he gave you, like, a rock like you asked for. She said, yeah, and I said, so what happened? She said, well, I fucked him that night.

And what's the hope story where you asked Tom his advice when you were, you told me that one on the phone. Well, I did a roast for hope. And this is when he's so old that he had to be carried around. He was very frail at this point. And it was at the Beverly Hilton Hotel, and I was on a dais with – you'll love this, Gilbert. I'm not a stand-up. I'm like Chevy, you know.

I don't do stand-up, but I can write a thing and then perform it, but I'm not a stand-up. So I'm on the dais with Sid Caesar, Norm Crosby, Phyllis Diller, Connie Stevens just for fun, and Sid Caesar, I think. Did I ever mention him? Anyway, it was like and Dave Thomas. And so I wrote a joke that I thought would be a funny way to open it. And I tried on Poston, because it was when I was doing Grace Under Fire with Tom.

I tried it on him in the afternoon. He said, no. He said, that's a long drive to no payoff. It ain't going to work. That crowd will not like it. So Tom is sitting in the audience, and I do this joke. And here's the joke. I'm out there, and I say, you know, I first met Bob in 1942, and we did some of those shows together out in the South Pacific, you know, with Francis Langford and Jerry Colonna.

And then in 1947, 48, we did the Pepsin and Show on NBC. And then in 1950, when we were doing the Frigidaire show, the first television show, Bob and I went to Switzerland because Bob wanted to go to the La Prairie Clinic for their youth program. They were, like, giving lamb fetish injections to people to help them stay young. And I said, now there were two programs that you could do. There was the full immersion and there was the thrift pack. And I looked at Bob and I said, Bob, just think how much better you'd look today if you'd gone for the extra bucks and done the full immersion. And I'm not kidding you. There's all these people out there at the Beverly Hilton, and I get nothing. I'm getting not even a snicker. And I look at Tom Post, and he's sitting in the front, and he's just shaking his head.

Told you. Told you. Too far to drive for that payoff. It's a funny one. I heard a bob hope story this is when he was like you know like uh you know living in outer space uh he was way past appearing in public and they were honoring him and he was sitting there the whole time propped up in the chair. And then one guy goes, hey, how about give Bob a chance to say something? And Dolores is trying to give them the like, no, no, no, no, no, don't do that.

And one of them shoves a mic in Bob Hope's face and says, Bob, what do you have to say? And he says, geek half. Oh, God. I want to go back quickly to the many lives of Jimmy Layton, which is out now. It's out now. We're here to plug, actually. It's out now, right, gentlemen? You can get it on Amazon and wherever fine books are sold. Actually, you have to get it from Amazon. Oh, it's exclusive. It's exclusive on Kindle and print. So, you know, we're trying

to get William Shatner up for a longer amount of time in space. You got to get it down while supplies last. Yes. Get your order in. It's $8.99 and $3.99 for the Kindle. This is price to move, price to sell. It's a story about what? A multiverse or parallel lives, parallel universes. Am I botching this totally?

A little bit. It's called the many worlds interpretation. It is one of the sort of multiverse theories, but here's the quick thing on it. It's a theory that a physicist from Princeton named Hugh Everett III came up with. And his concept was that for every binary choice in life, where you could go left or right at an intersection, so you go left. That's the realized choice. His theory was that the right turn, the unrealized choice, still existed, that it was a reality. And all the choices that branched off from that also existed. So, oh, by the way, did I mention that I left comedy behind when I was doing this? Okay. You've been writing for Bones and The Blacklist and you've given a second career.

When I start to explain quantum stuff as best I can, and I really don't understand it, I am so far from comedy that I can see myself disappearing over the horizon. It took me two months to explain quantum physics to this guy. Which one of you doesn't do the science? It's you, Max, right? I don't do any of the science. Yeah. I don't even do the math.

Yeah. And we should say you guys have not met physically. You wrote this whole thing over Zoom and the telephone, I assume. Yeah. Yeah. And the fax machine and Bob's old fax machine. In our chairs, just like Raymond Burr. With cue cards. It was a COVID novel. Yeah. I can't wait to read it. And thank you, Dave, for sending it to me. If I wasn't working 60 hour weeks, I would have polished it off by now. Dave, before we go, I asked you about a short list of things you might want to talk about. You brought up the David Steinberg show, which you did with Marty. And you said you work with Rip Taylor, Uncle Miltie, James Coco,

and Ethel Merman. So anything there that you might want to favor us with? Ethel Merman looked like a lollipop. It was this gigantic head and a tiny little body that just kind of hung helplessly below it. And the fact that she could actually walk around amazed me. She was diminutive and had this really, you know her voice, there's no business like showbiz. I mean, I can't do Ethel Merman, but my God, it was amazing to be working with her because she was from a whole different era of showbiz than I was. I was just, that was my first TV show. And we got in trouble on that show.

Marty Short was on it, Joe Flaherty and John Candy and I, because during one of the breaks, everyone left the studio to go to someplace to eat, and we were playing a game of tag football in the set. And John Candy tackled Marty and knocked him into this, like there were these mylar columns, and they just went down like dominoes, just lights bursting. And we all ran out of the studio like bad kids and hid in our dressing rooms. They knew it was us, but we never admitted to it. But then they put, as punishment, the next week we came in, we each

had our own dressing room the first week. The next week, they put Joe and John Candy in a dressing room and Marty and I in a dressing room. And then the following week, they put all four of us in this tiny dressing room. And then there was a shared bathroom with the guest star that week and the guest star and okay this is going to sound like it's not a this is an actual true story the guest star this week was senior wences and i i opened the bathroom door to take a leak and he's in there sitting down. And I go, oh, I'm sorry. And I close the door.

And from behind the closed door, I hear, sorry. True story. Me and Senior Wences. This is the last question from a fan, Dave. I think you'll get a kick out of this one. From Sean Patrick Little, I must hear Dave's thoughts about the lasting, enduring impact of the McKenzie brothers. How does he explain it? I don't and can't.

I mean, you know, maybe it's this. America is a country that's very rich with icons. You know, you got Superman, you got George Washington, Abe Lincoln, Coca-Cola. There's so many icons that people associate with America. And there are relatively few icons that people associate with Canada.

I mean, hockey, a beaver, the maple leaf. And then you kind of run it out of it. Maybe a Mountie. You're running out of them by then. So these two kind of running out of it, maybe a Mountie. You're running out of them by then. So these two kind of took wearing parka-clad guys that drink beer that look kind of like Muppets, non-threatening and very kind of like savant in their own little way. Maybe that's why. I don't know.

But, I mean, that's the best theory I can come up with. I hope this satisfies that inquisitive viewer, listener. And wasn't that created as like a snide comment on like there was some kind of law? No, it was Canadian content. The CBC, in the third season, global TV in Canada dropped us, and we went to the CBC and some isolated markets in the U.S. And the U.S. version had two minutes more commercials. So we had to come up with two minutes more programming time for the Canadian version.

And the CBC said we would like that two minutes to be distinctively Canadian. And we said, I remember Rick and I said, what do you want us to do? Put up a map of Canada, sit in front of it wearing toques and parkas and drink beer? Is that Canadian enough for you? They said, yeah. They said, yeah, that would be great. So that's what we did. A legend was born from humble beginnings.

Last question for Max. Ray Garton. I am a big Max Allen Collins fan. Among my favorites are his historical disaster mysteries, like the War of the Worlds murder and the Titanic murders. Is Max planning to do any more of these? No, I'm not. All my books that are disasters now, they're not intended to be disasters.

But I'm going to completely dodge the question and mention that one of the things about the book that Dave and I did together is that we did. There's the science fiction aspect of it, which is more like Groundhog's Day in terms of somebody moving. It's contemporary. We're not on a spaceship, okay? But we also have a crime story. I think Dave and I decided that because that's what I'm associated with, having my name on it, maybe we ought to throw a bone to my readers. And so we came up with two stories. So you bounce back and forth just as he's bouncing.

Jimmy's bouncing through various lives. We bounce back and forth between Jimmy's travels and this investigation by two kind of unlikely paired detectives who are trying to solve the mystery of who shot Jimmy Layton because Jimmy was shot when he was sent off on his travels. I think you've also answered another question with your thoughtful answer, none of which I've been able to give on this show. Who wrote the book? It just seems like you wrote it, Max, and I was along for the ride. Thanks, ladies and gentlemen.

I enjoyed the ride. Thank you very much. Thank you. Absolutely not true. There is not a word in that book that he and I didn't wrestle to the mat over. Yeah. Well, you envisioned it as a TV series originally, did you not? Yeah, I did.

And then I pitched it to a couple of executives, and I saw them glaze over and their eyes rolled back. And I thought, OK, I better not even think about trying to sell this as a TV. So then I started writing it as a book and I got a couple of chapters and I never would have got this finished if it hadn't been for Max. I never would have done it. I have so many unfinished things. It's ridiculous. That's that's very generous of him. But we really had a I think we had a great time on this. Yeah, we did. He is an idol of mine. In fact, for a long time I used to have the I used to have the action figures of Bob and Doug over here until

we kept bumping into it and our dog kept eating the beer bottles. And it got dangerous because we thought our dog might die eating the plastic beer bottles. And so we put Bob and Doug in plastic, but they really were for probably five, six, ten years they were in my office. Here's what I got to say to you, buddy. If you can't give a dog the Heimlich maneuver you don't deserve to have one you know I didn't know if we'd be able to capture what our working relationship is like

I think you have I think we just have I'm glad you guys found each other I really am we didn't even get into the mysteries you know Gilbert and I were talking about your body of work, Max, on the phone, and that you've written about the Black Dahlia, not only the Titanic and the Hindenburg, but the Black Dahlia and the assassination of Huey Long and the Lindbergh kidnapping. And we'll have you guys back. And, you know, Dave is a JFK assassination buff and an RFK assassination buff.

Well, I did two Kennedy. That's right. National nation books. And I think Dave has read, read them and I'm going to be doing another. The next book I'm going to be doing is going to have to do with, with Kennedy, Robert Kennedy going to move on to that. That leads me to another question for both you and Dave.

What do you think of Sirhan Sirhan being paroled? Okay, Paul Schrade, who was shot standing beside him, is 90 now. He's a guy that I've met and spent time with talking to him about this. He was in the room.

He got shot and he is investigated and he's one of the people trying to get Saran Saran paroled. Because although, and he maintains this really vehemently, although Saran Saran shot at Kennedy, Saran Saran did not kill Kennedy. Kennedy. RFK was shot with a bullet close to the back of his head, and he never turned around and presented the back of his head to Seren Seren once. Seren Seren was at least three feet away at all times. All the witnesses were able to verify that. And Thomas Noguchi, the coroner, said the powder burns that were in the fatal wound to the back of the head, indicated that the gun was either pressed directly against the head or about an inch away. And at no point was he close to that.

So there's a guy who was in the room. I'd been in that room at the Ambassador Hotel, the kitchen, where he was shot. It's a tiny little room. But I'll tell you, after spending an afternoon with this guy, Paul Schradt, he made me believe absolutely that this was a classic hit with the loud guy in the front, bang, bang, bang, I'll kill you, I'll kill you. And the real insurance guy in the back, nailing him from behind. Does the name Thane Caesar mean anything to you?

It means a lot to me because he was the security guard standing behind him. And guess what? Thane Caesar carried an Ivor Johnson.22 as his security guard gun. Not a Colt.38 like all other security guards. He carried an assassin gun with a low report. That's exactly the kind of gun that Sir and Sirin was using. So kind of a coincidence that they both had the same guns. Come on.

I'm going to be doing Nate Heller on that, and I'll probably be leaning on Dave. And so you're saying he was shot by Sid Caesar? No, no. Spoiler alert. He was doing so many dialects at the time, Gilbert. Here's Paul Schrade's card. Paul Schrade. Not to be confused with Paul Schrader.

Wow, look at that. That's right. Too many bullets. Too many bullets. That's going to be the name of one of these He that later. Too many bullets. Too many bullets. That's going to be the name of one of these Heller books. I love it. Because there were too many bullets in the room. 13 out of an eight shotgun.

Give me a fucking break. We'll have you guys back just to explore these mysteries. Because Gilbert and I want to know about the Black Dahlia, and we want your take on the Lindbergh kidnapping, and all of these other things. Because these are the things we talk about on the phone when we're not talking about Sid Caesar and Howard Morris and John MacGyver. Gilbert, I'm sorry. Gilbert, I'm sorry to tell you this, but the Black Dahlia is deceased. And Jewish, Gilbert.

Really? No, no. Oh, God. I really wanted that. Do you guys know the character actor John MacGyver? Sure. Okay, we're going to have Gil take you out. He is the only, how many people on the earth, about?

A couple of billion? On the entire earth? Yeah. Eight billion. Gilbert is the only person of eight billion that does a John MacGyver impersonation. Oh. And you're about to hear it. Everything in this company must be run according to schedule.

This company is a tight ship, and I am the captain of the ship. We will have no slackers here, you understand? No slackers at all. Oh, I love that show where you made those crazy inventions. That was wonderful. He had a sitcom called, I think, Many Happy Returns. Yeah. It was a return department in a department store.

Well, the connection is he was in the Manchurian Candidate. Very good. Yes, indeed. And he was with Jerry Lewis in who's, I think, in Who's Minding the Store. He was the head of the department store. I want to sit down with you one day, Gilbert, and do see if we can come up with the most obscure impressions in the world, because I think you're way ahead of me, but I would like to try to catch up.

You did some obscure ones, Dave. I did. I don't think anybody did Boy George. No. Other than you. In a boxing ring. Yeah. Did you ever get any blowback from Liberace, pardon the I did where it's the Anderson's sleigh ride. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, Sleeveless guys, muscle guys in Santa costumes were so whipping Liberace back. And I was just going, ah, ah. So the geniuses at CAA that were repping me at that time, they were doing a movie about his life.

And I think Victor Garber ended up playing him. So they sent this tape to Seymour Heller and he called me up and he just started screaming at me. Who do you think you are? Who do you think you are doing something like this? So this tasteful thing about Lee, you, you, you, you have to pull this down. You can't put this. I said, Jesus Christ, this was on TV 20 years ago. I can't pull it down. Jesus Christ, this was on TV 20 years ago. I can't pull it down. It's already aired.

And I said, listen, I said, I didn't send that tape to you. I'm not responsible. Talk to the agents. Talk to the geniuses that rep me and rep you, and then try to figure out why you got it. That is hilarious. Okay, so you did. The answer is yes. I guess it was Billy That is hilarious. Okay, so you did. The answer is yes.

I guess it was Billy Barty's birthday recently, and they showed a clip on the internet of Billy Barty as Liberace. Oh, get out. We'll send it to you, Dave. With a tiny piano in front of him. And he's the white wig. And he did a very good Liberace imitation. Jesus. Wow. That's funny.

Let's shout out some people. Our friend John Murray, who helped us immeasurably here, set this up with the audio and get everybody straightened out. And Max's son, Nathan. John. Who was Johnny on the spot. Nathan. We thank him.

A shout out to Joe McGinty, our pal and musician who was listening to this episode and visiting Gilbert in Florida. Nathan. We thank him. A shout-out to Joe McGinty, our pal and musician who was listening to this episode and visiting Gilbert in Florida. Joe. And a shout-out to Max for loving two films

that I love that are underloved, and that is Blake Edwards' The Great Race and the Fred McMurray comedy Murder, he says. Fantastic movies.

Yes, two movies strongly recommended. And nobody really knows about Murder, he says. That's flying under the radar. That's one of the greatest. It really is one of the funniest movies. What, Marjorie Maine? Yep.

But McMurray was really very underrated as a comic actor. Supposedly the cheapest man in Hollywood, Fred McMurray. I heard that. Until Gilbert showed up. Oh, and Fred McMurray, Gilbert showed up oh and Fred McMurray another guy with a fucking great deal when he did My Three Sons

they would shoot all of his scenes like in a day and they'd scatter them through the whole season yep I heard that story too and you know where he's buried where? underneath John Candy I'm not kidding you Yep. I heard that story, too. And you know where he's buried? Where? Underneath John Candy. I'm not kidding you.

What? Fred, yeah, down at Forest Lawn here in L.A. in the crypt, Fred McMurray is under John. John Candy is above Fred. Geez. Wow. John Candy, greatly missed. The book is The Many Lives of Jimmy Layton, folks. Pick it up, the first of many, probably, collaborations between Dave Thomas and the great Max Allen Collins. Do you want to take us out on a little bit of Bob Hope saying goodbye, Dave?

Am I putting you on the spot? No, not at all. Hey, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us. You know, this show is kind of special to all of us because it's hosted by a guy who's a very close and dear friend and one of the greatest comics ever. Ladies and gentlemen, special thanks go to Gilbert Gottfried. And I want to thank you all and drive home, drive safe. Remember, ladies and gentlemen, your heart and lungs are important, but don't forget about your glands. They get you everywhere.

Bye-bye. Okay, Gil, you can sign off, I guess. Let's say goodbye to these gentlemen. Thank you, guys. This was a party. This has been Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre, and the only man who likes my season of Saturday Night Live, Max Allen Collins.

He's the one. And a return visit from our pal Dave Thomas. Thanks, this has been fun. I'm exhausted from laughing. Dave, have a wonderful dinner. Yes. Thank you, guys. Thank you, Max.

Thank you, Nathan. Thank you, John. We love you. Thank you so much. Great to meet you, Gilbert. Oh, nice meeting you. Big fan, really love you. Thank you so much. Great to meet you, Gilbert. Oh, nice meeting you. Big fan, really. Thank you.

Seriously. And we love Tom Poston and Dick DiBartolo. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Good night. All right. Fantastic. All right.

Good night, guys. Thanks for the memory of sentimental verse. Nothing in my purse. And chuckles when the preacher said For better or for worse How lovely it was Thanks for the memory Of Schubert's serenade

Little things of jade And traffic jams and anagrams And bills we never paid How lovely it was Strictly entre nous Darling, how are you? And how are all those little dreams That never did come true?

Awfully glad I met you Cheerio and toodaloo Thank you Thank you so much.