Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Mini #218: The History of Drag with Frank DeCaro

Episode Date: May 30, 2019

This week: Tommy Velour! "Jethrine" Bodine! The artistry of Charles Pierce! The other side of Flip Wilson! Uncle Miltie's "meaty tuck"! And Herman Munster becomes a cocktail waitress! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connects ontario.ca please play responsibly i am future i wait in the world of echo discover echo from cirque du soleil now playing under the big top at toronto lakeshore boulevard west tickets at cirque du soleil.com echo thanks it's presenting partners sun life the world is yours to create Echo thinks it's presenting partners' sun life. The world is yours to create. Hi, I'm Gilbert Gottfried, and I'm here with my co-host Frank Santopadre, and this is Gilbert and Frank's Amazing Colossal Obsessions.

Yes. And we have with us today someone who has a new book out called Dread, combing through the big wigs of show business. Frank DeCaro. Colossal obsessions. Yeah, you see? You gave him credit for saying DeCaro off mic. I know.

None of that DeCaro shit. Did you guys know each other from the stand-up world? No, but I was there the day that I was... The night that you did the aristocrats joke, I was in the room because I was, the night that you did the aristocrats joke. I was in the room because I was either on the dais for that one, not speaking, but sitting there. Wow. Because I was on the Daily Show in those days. Yes.

Yeah, that was the you have no roast. Oh, my God. It was amazing. Yeah, it was one of those moments where you're like, I can't believe I was in the room for this. Yeah, so no. And I'd never heard that joke before. Yeah. You had never heard the aristocrats joke until the night you were in the room. I waited for the room for this. Yeah, so no. And I'd never heard that joke before. Yeah. You had never heard the aristocrat's joke

until the night you were in the room. I waited for the best. No one has ever taken the Italian out of the name Santa Padre like you. There is not a... It was an art form. There is not a whiff of garlic

left in that name when you get done with it, I'll tell you. Not a bit. That's hilarious. So I'm going to say this is a whole book about famous people and drag.

And drag. It's true. And if I had known in time, I would have found you as Madeline and put you in there. But I made you a drag moment of the day on the internet. So there you are. You want to explain that? Yeah. A bunch of times when, like, Leno would call me for those bits.

In the beginning. One time I was Queen Elizabeth. Another time I was... Wait, first or second? Which one? The one with the high hairline? I think so. No, no, the one... The one now? Yes. Okay. Who was that one who was

married to Charles? Not Princess Di. The one, not a very attractive woman. Camilla Parker Bowles yes yes I was her on a show I see that I do now I'm sitting across from you and I think that

when I would run into you downtown I'd see you on the street I see Una O'Connor when I look at Gilbert and drag me and drag I become a far side cartoon I get the cat glasses then I should have a beehive I look like a woman from the- I was playing an Uno Cana type on an episode of Saturday Night Live.

I was doing an old English woman. You were. Perfect. Okay, so there are more drag moments in Gilbert's career, Frank. I'm going to find them and feature them. Even we knew about. You see, now you found John Davidson in the book. John Davidson.

What we just had here. I know. We talked about that very moment. He was a killer Carol Channing impersonator, and he would get them with a hat pin. Yeah. As a transvestite is wont to do. And my wife asked, how do you kill someone with a hat pin? One good shot.

Really? You just right in. Yeah, you have to do that. You hope you don't have, you hope that never happens. We plugged the book when John was here. Thank you. You know, he tells the story plugged the book when John was here. Thank you. He tells the story about shaving his eyebrows ill-advisedly. He did that.

And also, he tells the joke about where he didn't know which bathroom to use. Did he tell that bit? Yes. Oh, very funny. Which he says Pat McCormick wrote for him. Oh, I'm sure they did. Yeah. So the book is doing well.

It's an Amazon bestseller. It's already in second printing. Yeah, it is. It went into its second print. It's been number one in its category for like three and a half weeks. Wonderful. Now, I know the Three Stooges played women a bunch of times. I'll get them

soon, I think. I'll have to make drag moments of the day. I do like things like that. This whole book was based on my having to get a picture of Fred Gwynn as Herman Munster in drag in the book. And it's in there. as Herman Munster in drag. Oh, jeez. In the book. And it's in there.

Yes. I remember that episode. Oh, Just Another Pretty Face was the name of it. And he was the best. And he gets hit by a bolt of lightning and turns into a cocktail waitress. Was that your? As you do. As one does.

That was your first exposure to drag as a kid? Yeah, I was. I was like three years old. Right. And it was on the Munsters, which this is either pathetic or good. It's still my favorite show. So The Munsters is my absolute favorite and he gets hit first he's turned into Fred Gwynn without makeup

and they think it's horrible so they fix him and then they hit him with a bolt of lightning and he turns into a cocktail waitress and suddenly he's got the little sausage curls and he's Aunt Herman and I think he's the first trans character on TV I really do but anyway yeah it was a pisser to find that photo

but that was kind of the impetus for this book I think was my needing to get that in there so you really didn't set out to do this book they came to me that's why it's a hit if it was up to me anything that's my idea the three of us think is interesting

and that's the end of it. Fantastic. I was showing Gilbert, too, and we'll get to that because we were talking off mic about Karloff in drag on a famous Girl From U.N.C.L.E. Yes, I remember that one. The Mother Muffin Affair. And he's never revealed to be a drag person. It's a female role. And there's like three.

It's like you get Boris Karloffff harvey firestein louis anderson in baskets that's it oh yeah you know that's kind of your whole men playing women in a comedy that's what you get so uh yeah so it's it's still popular in pop culture i mean oh my god it's never been bigger than now oh and and the person that used to crack me up all the time in drag and that was milton burl he was the first uh drag superstar of television up all the time in drag, and that was Milton Berle. He was the first drag superstar of television. Yeah, I mean, it was amazing. And I love that, you know, the drag queens, when you take, they ask you if you have a meaty tuck.

That means how big your schvanzducker is and how big your tuck, you know, like, can you stick it in the back up yourself? So Milton could go around twice would be my guess. Use it as a shoulder pad from behind, I think. I wrote it down. Meaty tuck. Yeah, he has the meatiest tuck in show business. But that was the idea. And it's the same honestly, it's the same reason. You're better looking

than Milton Berle, obviously, but the idea is the same. I don't know if you're better hung, but you're better looking. But it's you get the guy who's the least likely to be wearing women's clothes. That's the Hollywood tradition. You go, you're going to play Madeline. You're going to play Queen Elizabeth. And you grab someone like you and you say, here, put the wig on.

And that was the Hollywood tradition for the bulk of, you know. Playing it for laughs. I mean, it's Abe Vigoda in a dress on Barney Miller. Remember that one? Oh, yes. Was he a decoy? Yeah, it was a mugging detail. Mugging, mugging decoy.

They pulled mugging detail. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he did. And as you do. And he looks like every, I don't know about you, but he looks like every relative I have. He looks like a great neck widow when you put him. We all have Abe Vigoda in drag in our family photos. Your book is educational because I didn't know this stuff about Uncle Miltie that he learned drag by sneaking into drag balls.

I read that. Isn't that amazing? That's fascinating. They quoted him saying, my drag is too gay to be gay. I don't know what that means exactly. He didn't take it. Yeah, my drag is too gay to be gay. I wrote that down.

I don't know what that means either. I guess it's too gay like ha ha ha than to be gay like And he did it for a long time. He did it his entire career. No one spent more time. Into the 80s There's a Donny Marie episode. Gilbert Gottfried didn't spend that much time in a dress. Please Nobody So talk a little

bit about the history which I love I love the fact that the book is a history book it's a pop culture book I mean it goes back, drag goes back to Shakespeare beyond that to the ancient bit about the history, which I love. I love the fact that the book is a history book. It's a pop culture book. I mean, it goes back, drag goes back to Shakespeare, beyond that, to the ancient Greeks. I did the typical thing, you know, I was like, let's, I moved through thousands of years of theatrical history in

200 words. It's like, move it away. I was like, oh yeah, they did it in Shakespeare. They did it in Kabuki. They did it in Elizabeth, you know, whatever. Ancient Greece, boom. 1912, let's start there. And I it in Elizabethan, you know, whatever. Ancient Greece, boom. 1912, let's start there. And I get to that really quick.

So there was a drag performer, a female mimic named Julian Eltinge, who was given his own Broadway theater, which you can still see on 42nd Street. It's one of the multiplexes there right near the Port Authority. And it was the Julian Eltinge Theater. In 1912, had a magazine he was like the martha stewart of drag then he was in movies he was on the toast of broadway and he was a drag performer and if you said anything about his masculinity he'd take you in the alley and beat you up or at least try now now but theater in general theater at one time was old men. Yeah. Yes, exactly. No women allowed in theater. And so I talk a little bit about that. But honestly, I'm only interested in, I thought, I'm trying to get people interested in drag,

but I thought, how far back can I go? Because I didn't want it to be academic in this book. I wanted it to be fun and pop cultural. But it is. It is fun. But there is some fun history. Can you confirm or deny that the term drag actually comes from performers dragging their petticoats?

I didn't even put that in. I thought, that doesn't make sense to me. I was like, I'm not going to further that along. Yeah, I found that doing some extra research.

And dressed as a girl or something at the end, you know, and was like, I don't, you know, dressed as girl. I was like,

I don't think that's true either. But do tell us about someone we're interested in, Mae West, and about her play in, what was it, 27? That was too controversial for New York City? Yeah, she did a play're interested in, Mae West, and about her play in, what was it, 27?

That was too controversial for New York City? Yeah, she did a play called The Drag. And apparently it didn't, they couldn't open it here because they were in the midst of a crackdown. So they like played New Jersey. You know, as my mother used to say, come to New Jersey, all the gays are welcome there. That was my mother's line. And apparently for Mae West it was the same thing in the 20s. Yeah, so she had this play called The Drag.

But she's such a – I love her because she's kind of like a drag queen even though she was a lady, we think. Yeah. She also helped – this is some fun history in the book. A performer – she helped a performer named Bert Savoy develop his persona. This is the guy that died the – He helped her become her. And he died a strange death, which I found fascinating too. Yeah, apparently the story is

and this is why you shouldn't throw shade in a lightning storm. He went out, he heard thunder, and he said, that's enough out of you, Miss God, and got hit by lightning. Oh! So you can't be... How bad can my language be? As salty as you like. You can't be punty to God, okay? You really can't. Don't say a bad word to God

because he'll smile. He's in charge of electricity. Watch uh that's sitting there for your uh your aristocrats now you must have i have never seen this movie believe it or not you must own 10 copies and that's my i knew he was going there that's a good one yeah but i'd say but it's really i mean that's And that's Myra Brinkley. I knew he was going there. That's a good one. Yeah. But it's really, I mean, that's more, that's like a trans story. So that's not even, I don't know if that's even mentioned in here because Raquel Welch is supposed to, you know, plays a woman or plays a, you know, a trans woman.

Everything was lost in the translation. Yes. From what Vidal wrote. Yes, I guess. I don't know. Gore Vidal is mentioned though because this because this I love, because it's the kind of line you wish was your own. There was this group in the 60s,

late 60s, in San Francisco called the Cockettes. They were bearded. He did a tight 10 for them, and it was perfect. Very tight. Anyway, they were 1969. They're the toast of San Francisco. They're bearded drag queens, covered in glitter, sometimes naked, usually on LSD, performing.

They become the toast of it, and Rex Reed writes them up, of course, and other people do, and New York gets wind of it. They fly them to New York, and they bomb. They bomb. They're so weird. And Gore Vidal's line was, being untalented is not enough. That's hilarious. That's hilarious.

And this will kill you. This is why I like the Cockettes. I mean, I don't get them, but I like it. They ask, there's a documentary that's quite wonderful about them. They ask John Waters about the Cockettes and he says, they were the first bearded LSD dragd drag he said that was new then he said that would be new now new now and then they ask holly woodlawn right who's the drag or drag and trans performer whatever whichever stage of her career andy warhol girl you know the whole thing and they ask her to talk

about them and she gets a look on her face like, I don't know what to say about the caucus. If you can get Holly Woodlawn to be speechless about a drag troupe, you're really doing something. Do you know Holly Woodlawn as Gilbert? Now that name sounds so familiar. Do you know Lady Bunny? Do you know any of the

performers that Frank highlights in this book? By the way, one of the things I like about the book is it's a tribute to these artists, to these people. Oh, it's a love letter to these folks. Yeah, it really is a love letter, kind of like our show. I want to ask about to some of the early, some of the great comedians we talked about, Uncle Miltie, people like Wallace Beery,

Fatty Arbuckle, Chaplin, even Laurel and Hardy. They all had this drag character. Did you know this? Sweetie the Swatter was like a series of short films. Abner Costello did drag in certain And there was. Did you know this? Sweetie the Swatter was like a series of short film. Abner Costello did drag in certain things. Roland Hardy. Well, the Roland Hardy.

Roland Hardy played each other's wives? Yeah, they trafficked in. But they trafficked in that gay thing a lot, even though they weren't talking about that. They were, you know, it was like, oh, we're both in a bed together. We love, you know, they played with that. But they would end up in drag. It's kind of like everybody who's anybody has put on a dress at some point. Sure, sure, sure.

Frank, you haven't. See, Gilbert and I have. The night is young, my friend. Well, I grew up with Flip Wilson and Maude Frickert and all of these people. Yeah, but Flip was a big deal because it was always how ugly do I look in drag? And then Flip Wilson shows up as Geraldine, and she's kind of sexy. And she traffics in this sort of feminist character

with she's got a boyfriend named Killer, and he will if you refresh. She kind of seduces people. She almost marries OJ Simpson in one episode of the Flip Wilson show. That's the most hilarious thing to me. It's like, oh, and she flirts with Bill Cosby in another episode.

Yeah, right, sure. Always good. She had a sex life, that one. I'll tell you, if she'd gone with it, she could have married OJ and had sex with Bill Cosby. Now, what was always the case,

every time a guy dresses as a woman on TV and movies, there's going to be a guy who's obsessed with... Who falls in love with him. He's just crazy about it. That's the trope.

The storyline of Abe Vigoda on Barney Miller is he's on Mugging Detail and a guy offers him $20 for sex. I'm thinking of Bob Hope in Casanova's Big Night, which is another one. But maybe kind of, wasn't he dressed sort of as like a Josephine kind of character? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, of course, later day Bob Hope when he would have the bazooms on the Bob Hope specials.

They were like the two creepiest looking makeup jobs ever were the Waynes brothers. Oh, and what? And white chicks? Oh, yeah, that was a little weird. Yeah. Because you get white face and... If you do two things at once, it's a lot, you know?

I mean, it's like, pick one or the other. And I mean, that... They look like characters out of like a horror film. It was like the elevator door would open, it'd be all blood, and they'd be standing there. Yeah, it kind of looks like a horror film it wasn't like the elevator door would open it'd be all blood and they'd be standing there yeah it kind of looks like a little bit of that we will return to gilbert gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this

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19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. This episode is brought to you by FX's The Bear on Disney+.

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Jeremy Allen White, Io Debrey, and Maddie Matheson is ready to heat up screens once again. All new episodes of FX's The Bear are streaming June 27, only on Disney+. Speaking of horror films, let's just talk a little bit too.

And again, the book is educational. What book is that? Would it be Drag? Drag by Frank DiCaro. Forward by Bruce Valance, by the way. Also that thing you said. Him too. Former podcast guest.

No. Yes, him too. Hey, Hinch. Yes. A great end of Turnblad. He hides it really well. Even better than I do. I always thought he was a major cunt town.

That's what he called Marioio we had canton the first time we had canton in here and he called him famous cunt hunter mario canton i also learned the chaplain and and stan laurel did drag in in british music hall which was oh my god i don't know if i knew that yeah that's yeah i did a little they just love it. You know, I mean, Hollywood, everywhere loves a man in a dress. Luke Costello, Jerry Lewis, we were talking about Danny Kaye and Bing and White Christmas. I know the sisters.

I was going to say, if you haven't played Carmen Miranda, you haven't really done anything, apparently in show business. It's like you need to be a man dressed as Carmen Miranda. Sure. And when we had Jamie Farr here, who made a career.

His manager said that Jamie doesn't want to talk about dresses. Meanwhile, he showed up on The Cool Kids the other day dressed in drag.

Oh, you reached out? Yes, I wanted him to do a panel and his manager didn't seem to even want to get him the message. He was like,

okay, thanks for nothing. That's unfortunate. It seemed weird. It seemed also for a while every famous black comedian had the fat black woman character oh i i got a call from a friend saying you defended norbit with eddie burfield and i was

like i love that movie i think raspush is wonderful and he's like how could you put that in a book and i was like i think it's funny bless your heart frank you know it's like you got your heart, Frank. Look, you know, it's like you gotta go with your gut and I think someone whose bikini bottom you can't see on a slide saying, I'm sliding, bitches! It's funny. Sorry, I just, that works for me.

I love the index in the back too because you covered every... Oh, the dragdendum? The dragdendum. I mean, you even had Harvey Corman. What was Harvey Corman's character where you had the giant... Mother Marcus. Yes! Mother Marcus. You didn't miss a trick. Well, you know, Harvey, what was Harvey Korman's character where he had the giant? Mother Marcus. Yes. Mother Marcus. Mother Marcus. You didn't miss a trick.

Well, you know, there's that great moment where she slams the door because she didn't know he was going to look like that. Right. And they open it again and he's holding the nipples like, ow. Right. You know. And that was his moment to crack Carol up, which was hard to do. But it's interesting the different, the ways drag was used in films.

For cheap laughs. It was either the guy who, you know, it was like one step, two step, fall on your heel. You know, the heel bends over. You know, you can't walk in his shoes. Oh, it's always that shit. It's something like it hot. Or, you know, as you said, it's like there's always the guy who falls in love. They don't notice the hair, the man hands, the Adam's apple, nothing.

They just, oh, baby, oh, baby, you're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen, which is screwy to begin with. So there's that trope. Then there's the fractured personality thing, which I love. I was going to ask you about that. That's always good. Like John Davidson. John Davidson, yeah, oh, he's a good, you know, don't make me kill again,

that kind of thing in the mirror while you're doing your makeup, right? Michael Caine in Dressed to Kill. Michael Caine in Dressed to Kill. Sure. But there are TV examples that are, okay. There's Jim Bailey, who was like the female impersonator. Oh, sure. Right?

He was like Phyllis Diller on Here's Lucy. Yeah, talented guy. So he does a bit on Vegas where he's a Judy Garland impersonator who's got a stalker, and basically he shoots himself so that it looks like someone's trying to get him and stuff. So he's a nut Garland impersonator who's got a stalker and basically he shoots himself so that it looks like someone's trying to get him. So he's a nut bar on that one. Ray Walston and Caprice. Caprice.

Isn't that the one where Doris Day pushes him to his death? Always nice. One of the characters that Rod Steiger is in No Way to Treat a Lady. It's in the book. Frank didn't miss anything. Got it all in there. Yeah, I got as much as I could.

Yeah. We talk about that movie, William Goldman's script. I don't know if I've ever seen it. I've read about it. It's very good. Yeah. But I do,

there's part of me, that's the problem. There's part of me that's fascinated. Even if the portrayal is terrible, even if it's the worst thing you could say about

a drag performer, it is fascinating when you're like, oh, of course, she's out of her mind. She dresses as a woman. Does Norman Bates count? Sure! Oh, psycho drag is the best. Have you ever

seen a convincing case of a woman dressed up as a man? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I think in the 70s, Lily Tomlin did Tommy Velour with the chest wig. And it was disconcerting because none of us had ever seen a woman dressed as a man before with the chest hair.

And in those days, I mean, if she did a character and that character had hair under her arms and it was a female character, we all went, eh. But to see her with chest hair and it's like, Lily Tomlin is a lounge lizard. And she did Purvis, this other character. But that was like, oh, my God. That Glenn Close movie. Was it Albert Knobbs? Somebody Knobbs, yeah. She's pretty convincing.

Don Knobbs. It was Don Knobbs. The incredible Mr. Limprest. Of course, boys don't cry. So yeah, well that's, see when it's a trans character, I stayed away from that because it's a drag role, yes, but it really is not a drag character. Right. Performance. Yeah.

Yeah. But speaking of Jim Bailey. Yes. This I loved from an interview. He performed in drag in a primetime tribute to the Super Bowl. Okay. I did not know about this at the time. I don't.

I was 17, 18 when it was on. So, you know, you're doing fun things. You're not staying home watching. You hope you're not home watching TV. And if it was Super Bowl, I totally wouldn't have watched it because I'm a faggot. Anyway, you know, you're doing fun things. You're not staying home watching. You hope you're not home watching TV. And if it was Super Bowl, I totally wouldn't have watched it because I'm a faggot. Anyway, as you said before.

Anyway, so, no, I was going to say he did a primetime salute to the Super Bowl. It would have probably been like Friday night or Saturday night in advance of the Super Bowl

on that Sunday. And he arrives in an open convertible dressed as a Star is Born era Barbra Streisand singing Don't Rain on My Parade. Okay. For a Super Bowl special. And then performs in drag alongside Minnie Pearl in another number. What the fuck?

It's like that is – poor Alan Carr takes all that shit for Rob Lowe and Snow White. I don't think they can polish the shoes of Jim Bailey as Barbra Streisand on a Super Bowl special. That is just fucked up. That is so weird. Could you find that? Yeah, it's on YouTube. Oh, my God. You need to watch it.

I absolutely must find that. We're trying to sell. I tell people, and it's true. The reason I wrote this book was truly to get that picture of Fred Gwynn as Herman Munster in a dress. That's why I needed to see it. And it couldn't be the one from the reunion show where they're waitresses. It had to be that for me. So I got it in there. He did it again with Grandpa

Munster. Isn't there one where Eddie's a little girl? Oh yeah, that was good. He also had a beard. Remember there was that one too? Eddie has a wig and becomes a little girl. But you don't see him in drag. It's actually a girl with his voice dubbed in. Thank God they didn't. He's got to have trouble.

Patrick into drag. It would have been not so butch. Femme Patrick would have been the thing, actually. Wait. So, anyway, the reason. So now we're trying to get. I want to turn the book into a 10-part documentary series about the history of drag. And I want it to be really serious.

Not lighthearted, but not stupid. Like journalistic and not frothy. And you want Gilbert to narrate it. I do. I wanted to be. Now that his clip is going in. But it's all because I need to get that clip of the Super Bowl special back on television. Oh, that's funny.

It's like there's always that one thing. I see. Why do I need to do this? That's why. So that's an admirable goal. I hope. I want to talk. These's why so that's an admirable goal I hope I want to talk these are some things that Gilbert will find interesting

we talked about Karloff in The Girl from U.N.C.L.E. a 1952 movie called Old Mother Riley Meets the Vampire oh yes yes with Lugosi Bella Lugosi

and someone doing old lady drag I kind of thought Maude Frickert was first you know but apparently lots of old lady drag characters that people would do. Particularly in Britain, too. Well, of course, Carson took Maude Fricker. Oh, and Blabby, yes.

Completely stole that from Jonathan Winters. Completely. Steal from the best. Yes. Can I tell you what Jonathan Winters thing? Please. I was writing a story as a journalist. I was writing a story years ago when that stupid Rocky and Bullwinkle movie

came out, right? And they needed the stars, whoever, I don't even remember who it was, were not ready for me. So they were like, well, there's someone

you could talk to. And they walk me to like the day player trailer and they open the door and it's Jonathan Winters sitting there. And we sat and talked for an hour

even though it was, we were just, we shot the shit for an hour with Jonathan and it we were just we shot the shit for an hour with john and it was just like how nice it was like they acted like we were babysitting each other that's nice and i was like you just took me to the pope of comedy and said you are now of an audience by yourself for an hour oh my god it was genius and it was really show business offers rewards sudden rewards surprise rewards like that sometimes well it's true but there's

how many people would have been like, who are you? I was dying. You're like, you'd walked in, you'd had 50 things to ask. I was like, I could talk to you all day. I know exactly what I want to know. Here's another one for you, Gilbert. Jackie Coogan and Sid Melton as cross-dressing cops in the Beat Generation. So, Jackie, I could, Jackie Coogan looks, he looks worse in drag than i do okay there are days if i don't

get enough sleep we look like uncle i look like uncle fester i totally do but it's like with him it's like there you look at him and it's like well at least i'm cuter than you you know in a dress but yeah no it's the it's a this beat movie and yeah it's weird because they're like shit melton and drake apparently yeah they were on a stake it was one of those stakeouts and you know oh god yeah it's a weird that's an obscure one though but anytime i found something weird like that i was like oh let's put it in how about paul lynn doing dragon the glass bottom boat yes of course he's in there he's got that he's got like a red updo and this off the shoulder Gil, you want to see all these, don't you?

Yes, yes. Don't you? But the one I can never find footage of, when I was a kid, there was the version of Hollywood Squares called Storybook Squares. Oh, sure. Right?

Sure. Yes. Anyway, Paul Lynde was the, I think, the Wicked Witch of the West. Oh, my God. And he came out and he said, I love kids,

but I can't bear them. That was his big line. But it was like, so he did drag his, you know, I think he did it as much as he wanted. He said, I'll come out with a purse was his big line. But it was like, so he did drag as, you know, I think he did it as much as he wanted. He said,

I'll come out with a purse if I want to. You know, there was all those interviews where he said, do you remember the playbook where it was People Magazine, not either of those.

People Magazine, he said, gay people kill Judy Garland. They're not going to kill me. Wow. Oh, he was the best. Now, Valencia has some great stories

about him. Yes. That actress, was her name Linda Hunt? Yes, from the Year of the Living Dangerous. She won an Oscar. She's in there. Yeah, she was playing like a boy. Yes.

Yeah, and that wasn't a drag role. It was a male role, but she was really good. She won an award, like a little Oscar or something. You know, speaking of the old tropes, I always remember the sitcoms with Gilbert's talking about how somebody always falls in love. Oh, instantly. But I always like the gag where with Gilbert's talking about how somebody always falls in love. Oh, instantly. But I always like

the gag where it says, I'm not putting on a dress. And they would do the cut where it was like, hang on. They'd have that sound effect. And suddenly, the character would be in drag.

I think Larry Storch is in drag at least one or two times in old F Troop episodes. Oh, I have to find that. I have to say, you know, I didn't realize,

Bob Denver, Dobie Gillis, he's in drag. Oh, sure. Managee have to find that. I have to say, you know, I didn't realize, Bob Denver, they would, Dobie Gillis, he's in drag. Oh, sure. Manigee Krebs is in drag and Gilligan is in drag and he plays Mrs. Howell in one episode.

It's a little weird. They would do anything. TV was more fun. On the subject of that, I'm going to ask you about a couple of podcast guests that we had. Uh-oh.

Max Baird Jr. Jethreen Bodine. Wow. Hillbilly She-Beast. It'saird Jr. Jethreen Bodine. Wow. Hillbilly She-Beast. It's like, yeah. Was that, was she the best? I tell you. Jethreen Bodine.

So weird. Jethreen. Michael McKean. Okay. There's an episode of Lenny and Squiggy on Laverne and Shirley. Yep. Dress up as Lenore and Squendlin. A girl gang.

Yeah, and they're trying to infiltrate a girl gang, but it's Lenore and Squendlin, and it ends with you here in the hallway, and it's like, I'm not that kind of girl. It's like they, because she's like, you really should tell these guys, and so one of the guys gets fresh. And Clinger we talked about. Clinger's the best. We had Jamie Farr on the show. I think, you know, this is why you want to smack managers.

You know, you just want to go with. Oh, they always get in our way. Yeah, it's like, why are you? You want to say to me, you do realize that when the good Lord calls Jamie home, and I hope it's many, many years from now, he's going to be remembered as Max Klinger. There is nothing you can do about that. If he doesn't want to talk about me, you better own being an address because that's all anybody's going to remember. It ain't going to be the as Max Klinger. There is nothing you can do about that. If he doesn't want to talk about me,

you better own being in a dress because that's all anybody's going to remember. It ain't going to be the gong show. No. And I bet you, I don't think he would have done drag as Vicky Lawrence on the Cool Kids a few weeks back had it, if he were so uncomfortable.

We'll put in a call to Jamie. I was going to say, he's. See if we can cut the ice. Because he wouldn't know. Darren, let's call Jamie Farr for Frank and see what we can do. And I guess we had a couple of weeks ago. Robert Wagner? Oh, yeah. Okay, how stupid is this?

I'm late to the heart-to-heart saga, okay? I had never seen it when it was on then. I don't know what I was doing at the time, but I was not watching it. Now I love it. And my husband says to me, it's because it's really simplistic. Jim Colucci. Jim Colucci, author of Golden Girls Forever. Who's here. Yeah, our former guest.

Yes. But he always teases me. Our previous guest, I should say. Because he basically says, because the plots are really simple and you can understand them. Because if it's convoluted, you tend to not know what the hell's going on. But yeah, there are a couple of episodes uh where there's drag and robert wagner is in a spa episode where he's he's in he's in drag but the best one is lionel stander in drag oh no there's an episode called murder is a drag oh and lionel stander uh has to sneak out of this party or whatever it is and he goes into a walk-in closet and people are,

this hot young couple jumps into the bed in the master bedroom and they're getting it on and he's getting dressed and he's like, what the hell? And he comes out in this floor-length blue thing with that voice and he says, I'm coming out of the closet and he walks out of the room and the two people in bed are like, what the hell's going on?

And what I love about it, and I think it's because Mark Crowley, who wrote The Boys and the two people in bed are like what the hell's going on and what i love about it and i think it's because mark crowley who wrote the boys in the band he had a he was a executive or a producer there yes he was so they're not going to do offensive gay jokes and it ends up being better because what they end up doing is they play the whole thing where he goes he comes in at the end the little tag at the end he goes men you can keep them and he says oh sure when he's when he comes in at the end, the little tag at the end. He goes, men, you can keep them. And he says, oh, sure. When he's had a few drinks, he wants to show me his diamond mines and his whole thing. Then he sobers up and I'm not cute enough for him. And he said, you can keep them.

And so instead of it being something offensive, it's just him playing it out as if my whole life was going to be great. And it's not like he was gay. You never sit there and, oh, it was just a straight guy doing the shtick. I was going to be taken care of and have security. And i got nothing blacklisted by the way final standard there was a case this is a case of a guy the character loses his clothes and has to wear a dress to cover himself and that was in a Rock Hudson movie where he like somehow loses his clothes and he's walking down the street. Just think about that for a moment. Okay. Yeah.

He's walking down the street in a dress and someone catches him and goes, boy, it's always the guys you least expect. Yeah. About Rock. Yeah. That is so meta. That is so inside baseball. That is so meta. That is so inside baseball. That is so, I love, they would play, there were a lot of things. There's one where he talks about clipping recipes or something.

And you're just like, my God, it's like right in plain sight they're playing with. And then there was that movie where Cary Grant. Oh, I was a male war bride. Male war bride. And they said, why are you wearing a dress? And he goes, all of a sudden,

I started feeling gay. Is that a Hardhawks movie? I don't know, but that was really good. No, I just think it's funny that you put him in a horsehair wig and he's still like, oh, Jesus, you're still handsome.

It's like, some people just got it. Yeah, some people... Cary Grant, even in a dress, you're like, still pretty handsome. Yeah, some people. Cary Grant, even in a dress, you're like, still pretty handsome. Yeah. What about flattering portrayals or situations where they're not being played for cheap laughs,

like John Lithgow in Garp? Yeah, that's a trans character, though, so it's a little bit different. Yeah, there are moments where, and Louis Anderson is very, you know. Yeah, Louis Anderson. Doing wonderful, and that's a female role that he's playing, so that's good. Even Antonio Fargus in Car Wash. Yeah, that was good. He's a sympathetic character.

He plays Lindy, right? So he's got a necklace, his sexy bitch. And he has the best line ever. And I quote it in the book, drag, coming to the big ways of show business. It's available now. Anyway, he says, somebody's gay bashing him. And he says, I am more man than you'll ever be and more woman than you'll ever get. And apparently,

people who saw that on 42nd Street in 1970, whatever, that got huge applause. And it's not because it was a room full of gay people. It was because it was people on 42nd Street who were glad that the guy, you know, the underdog is speaking to the bully.

And so they liked it a lot. He's pretty good. He was Huggy Bear on Stars. You know, I think he's still around. Yeah. He looks good too, but Lindy was his character in Car Wash, and he had the little hair net and the

sexy bitch necklace. So he was kind of, now would call gender fluid, you know, because he's not really in drag, but he's a drag. Did you find it fascinating a couple of years ago when Hoffman was talking about playing Dorothy Michaels in Tootsie, and by the way, you guys seen the new musical? Oh, I saw it the other day, it was fantastic. Written by our friend David Yazbek.

That he brought himself to tears. Do you remember this? A couple years ago, Hoffman was- Oh, because he said that the kind of woman he was, he would never be attracted to. Yeah. He would never try to ask her out. Yeah, they did an interview. I mean, there's a movie with a drag performance where there's a reason for it to exist.

drag performance where there's a reason for it to exist. Because it very much makes a point about a guy putting a dress on. There's plenty of laughs in the movie, but him putting on a dress is not simply played for laughs. No, he honestly becomes a better man by having him become a woman. I mean, there are people now, they had to update it, and they did a great job of it now. But that sort of whole thing... And it was challenging to update it, I'm sure.

Well, no, so there are people who are very upset by the notion that, you know, oh, it's a man in a dress. They're just the man in a dress to some people if you're not gay or a drag performer. But I just went to that, and I thought, I think straight people should do drag, too. I think it's good for you. It's like, go put on that dress. And Santino Fontana rocks. Isn't he great? He's so good in it. You should see the Tootsie Santino Fontana rocks isn't he great he's so good in it you should see the

musical yeah you need to go it's really good it is the funniest book of a musical I've seen probably since Book of Moms lots of laughs

it's hilarious David did a great job what was the one I think it may have Amanda what's her name in it what's that

child actress from like the Disney kind of films she plays it's based on a shakespearean andrea mcardle no it's amanda bines amanda bines thanks frankie and it was based on a shakespearean play but she plays like a girl disguised as a guy. You know, she's going to school. And it's not. Oh, I don't know which one.

Our listeners are screaming at their devices. I know just one of the guys, which was. That might be it. No, that was an 80s comedy. That was a teen comedy. Yeah, she plays. She goes to the other school as a boy. Yeah.

Tootsie. Yeah. Tell us about the Flip Wilson thing, too. It's sort of the character, sort of. He had a strange relationship with the character. Okay, so Flip, for people who don't know, Flip Wilson was the first African. I mean, there's some question about whether he was first or there was a summer replacement show with Nat King Cole. But anyway, he's kind of the first guy to be African American and host his own

variety show on network television and it was a huge hit and held its own against All in the Family and other shows anyway he had all these characters

that he did and the only one anyone really liked was Geraldine Jones who was this drag character and she was sassy and she wore poochie print dresses

and she had catchphrases that we all what you see is what you get okay the devil made me buy this dress devil made me do it yeah the devil made me do it yeah um anyway so he did this character and he ended up uh there was a biography written and uh and i think it was gladys knight who was with in some show he did later on and she said that flip ended up hating that character because she was on more covers than he was.

I mean, she was on Ebony or Jet or whatever. So his alter ego took over. And people, even when they were winning the Emmys, Johnny Carson, as the host, made fun of them and said, you've done so much for the black man, you put him in a dress. So there was all that shame thrust upon him for playing this character. But he kind of made his peace by the end of his life, and he said, she carried me longer than my mother did. Isn't that sweet?

That's strange that you just had a short life. Yeah, he did. Well, you look at this book, apparently being in drag is a tough life. Don't do it too often. Your days will be numbered. No, you know, it's a lot of people for any number of reasons, I think, particularly among the performers who are, you know, more's a lot of people for any number of reasons, I think, particularly among

the performers who are, you know, more the fringe performers. Sure. There's 50, and it's not just like, oh, they got AIDS and died. It's like AIDS and murder sometimes. A lot of tragedies. You know, heart attack during a show or whatever, you know, and it's tough. You don't

get to too many who are in their 80s. Although I did meet the Guinness World Record holder for the oldest still working drag queen, and he's either 87 or 89 now. And he's a war veteran, and his name is, he goes by Darcelle15, and he's the toast of Portland. And his 60-some-year-old son bartends in his bar,

and his granddaughter waits tables, and he's a big drag queen. And he's still married. He's got a wife, and he has a whole career. Now, do you believe guys who dress up in women's clothes all the time who say that there's a difference between being a transvestite and being gay?

Yeah, sure. A lot of transvestites apparently are heterosexual. Yes. Like Eddie Izzard. They're your people, not mine. No, they are. No, apparently they do. No, that's a thing.

Guys like that and they're into it. But I'm talking, I mean, this book is about showbiz drag. Yeah. It's got to be your work clothes for me.

Otherwise, that's a whole other book. You wrangled an interview with somebody we've been trying to get on this show, Robert Morse, the great Robert Morse.

Wow. And congratulations. He did an interview with him we've been trying to get on this show, Robert Morse, the great Robert Morse. Wow. And congratulations. He did an interview with him? He came up to Sirius, and I interviewed him up there, and I saved the transcript, and that's how it ended up in this book. But the day it was published, my husband's in L.A., and he's- Jim Colucci. Jim Colucci, Golden Girls Forever. And got to get that in.

We got to pay the rent. Squeeze him in. Get him in. Jim Gallucci. Jim Gallucci, Golden Girls Forever. And got to get that in. We got to pay the rent. Squeeze him in. Get him in.

Anyway, and he looks across, and there's Robert Morris having lunch at the deli that we go to all the time. And he's like, oh, my God, we have books in the car. We learned from Marsha Wallace, God rest her soul. You always keep your book in the car, two or three copies, just in case you run into somebody you need to give it to. So Jim said, it's pub day. And it really was april 30th the official pub date and uh and he went to the car and he got one he came over and he we had met him before we we are we apparently eat at all the same places we're on the same lunch schedule as robert

morris because we run into him all the time and so jim gave him a copy of the book and he said could i take a picture holding it and you'll send it to frank and then he said here open to my page and he opens to the page where he's playing the there's a musical called sugar that was the musical version of some like a hat and he played the jack lemon part and so he there's a picture of him uh and he's holding it's really swell he's holding open the book to his page and stuff yeah he's i love him were you fans we'll swap with you okay we'll work on jamie farrarr if you call Robert Morse for us. Good. I'll have to do it.

Apparently, he said to Jim, he said, could I call Frank? I'm still waiting. But he said, could I call Frank and tell him how much I like the book? And I was like, no, yeah, you could do that. I do. Last question. There was a Charles Pierce show. Charles Pierce is one of the artists in the book.

He's one of my favorites. Yes, as well as the other Charleses, the famous Charleses, Bush and Ludlam. There was a Charles Pierce show that featured Uncle Miltie and Bea Arthur. Okay. So 25 years ago, this summer. Can you imagine, Gilbert? For the gays. This is your for the gays thing.

Okay. This summer is Stonewall 50. Okay. 50th anniversary of the beginning of the gay rights movement. Big deal. We're all nuts. Okay. We're all thrilled.

So we got our outfits picked out and everything so anyway that's coming up this year 25 years ago they did stonewall 25 and one of the things that they did was charl it was called charles bush's dressing up and it was a show at town hall and uncle milty was in drag did i have the wrong did i have the wrong Charles? Charles Pierce performed. Bush hosted, Pierce performed and Charles Pierce was besties with Bea Arthur. And so she was there and I don't remember if she was on stage or in the audience.

She must have come out for some reason. But Milton Berle did not want to leave. He was supposed to do like five minutes and 25 minutes later they sent Charles Pierce out to get him. I love it. So he's dressed as Betty Davis

and he's going out there to get Milton Berle off the stage. Every drag queen of any import in New York was there that night and even though I'm not

because I'm a drag hag number one I went and it was amazing. And I interviewed Charles Pierce as well. Charles, do you know his work at all?

Not very well, you know. Charles Pierce, they called him the funniest man in a girdle. That was what they used to say about him. He would do, he did Mae West, Tallulah Bankhead. He did a lot, but Mae West, Tallulah Bankhead, Betty Davis. Betty Davis was his masterwork. But he would do a bit where it was Betty Davis throwing shade, as the kids say, insulting to a little bankhead and vice versa,

just flipping the wig and going left to right with the microphone. He would do both characters back and forth. And it would be things like, you know, I saw you in the doorway with a light behind you. You look like Orson Welles. And then the other one would turn and say, darling, it's either moisturizer or wood filler. And they would go back and forth and read horrible things.

And so they would do all this shtick. But he was so great. And he would do really dirty Mae West jokes. And he did Marilyn Monroe. And in her voice, he would say, I was eight before I was seven. Things like that. So it was like dirty material. He was so funny and so good.

And he had a pretty good long career. More people should know about these great performers. Well, because all the kids think drag began with RuPaul's Drag Race Season 1. Of course. And I was like, well, there's at least 100 years that you need to know about then. So that's why I did that. And there's Divine. Divine is my favorite.

And Dame Edna and all these other people that deserve attention. Plugs. Frank, you're going to be signing. Yes. Oh, my God. We're doing. You're doing DragCon, but I. Frank, you're going to be signing. Yes. Oh, my God. We're doing. You're doing DragCon, but I don't think we're going to get that one up in time

because it's May 26th. Yeah, next weekend we're going to do DragCon. Okay. In LA, we're going to do a signing at the Barnes & Noble at the Grove on June 4th, which is a big deal because they don't, unless you're a celebrity, they don't give you that space.

For some reason, they were like, drag book? Yes. So we're doing that, and then I'm going to be at the Santa Monica Public Library with Pandora Box which will be

finished with Drag Queen on the next day Gilbert you work with Pandora Box all the time very sweet Miss Congeniality she's very lovely

Drag Queen and then we're going to do I'm going to be in Palm Springs on the 15th and then I'm coming to New York to do Pride Week here

is the last week of June, and it's a big this year's World Pride is a big deal for the gays, Gilbert. Yeah. Okay, and Frank DeCaro of show.com. Yes, I was going to say, but we are doing, so that's Barnes & Noble at Union Square on the 4th, on the 26th, and then I'm going to be at a cast party,

and I'm going to be, a bunch of little things. That'll be fun. And we're, my husband and I are two of the LGBTQ authors that we're going to walk in the parade with the Barnes and Noble people and wonderful two of the 50 congratulations as a couple Jim is here Jim did our show previously with his golden girls book which you guys have to get is it okay to say you're working on a love boat book or is that a secret it's okay he's nodding he's working on a love boat make him finish it for god's sake and I'm gonna I'm going to plug your other book, The Dead Celebrity Cookbook, which I own and love. Thank you.

Yeah, it was fun. We got a nice thing. It's very exciting. It's nice to have a book that people are liking. Congratulations. Let's hope for a third printing. Yes. And I hope you realize your dream of getting that Super Bowl clip back on television.

I got to get that thing out there. Oh, it's going to drive me crazy if I don't I want that back in prime time. This is what a subversive gay needs. What could I do to fuck around with the current administration? I could get a drag queen singing Don't Rain on my parade back in prime time. That's what I can do. That's my goal. It would be a significant contribution. Very funny, Frank DiCaro.

Yes. I'm going to say it this time so you don't mangle it. Drag coming through. Combing through. You don't come through. Combing through. You might come through. Stop that, Gilbert.

Put it away. Oh, Lord. Coming in. Put it away. Oh, Lord. Coming in. A drag queen. He puts on the Madeline outfit and then takes it out. We're going to post pictures of Gilbert. It's called drag. Coming all over. The big drag queen.

Coming through the big wigs of show business. Forward by our friend Bruce Valach. You two are horrible. Who has come all over many drag queens. I'm sure he has. Oh, my God. Once in a while.

It's a pride thing. We did it as a salute. The dirtiest show we've ever done, and we had Mr. Skin here. You'll tell me during the break. We'll tell you. We'll tell you. Thank you, Frank. Thank you, Jim. We love you guys. We love you guys, too. It's been Gilbert and Frank's Amazing Colossal

Obsessions. 🎵 Colossal Obsessions