Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Mini-Episode #113: Remembering Johnny Carson, Part 1 with Mark Malkoff

Episode Date: May 25, 2017

This week: Mel Brooks takes on Tony Bennett! Ed Ames performs a "bris." The mystery of the Zsa Zsa Gabor story! And Johnny turns down "The King of Comedy"!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

That's the sound of unaged whiskey transforming into Jack Daniel's Tennessee whiskey in Lynchburg, Tennessee. Around 1860, Nearest Green taught Jack Daniel how to filter whiskey through charcoal for a smoother taste, one drop at a time. This is one of many sounds in Tennessee with a story to tell. To hear them in person, plan your trip at tnvacation.com. Tennessee sounds perfect. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santopadre, and we're once again at Nutmeg with our engineer, Frank Furtarosa, and this is Gilbert and Frank's Amazing Colossal Obsessions. Col colossal obsessions.

Colossal obsessions. Pure polish. Yes. You know that? You're like Derwood Kirby. I thought of myself more of an Alan Funt. An Alan Funt type? Yes.

I don't think Alan Funt was a well-liked guy. Maybe our guest today can help answer that since he knows a lot about show business. We have our pal, Mark Malkoff. Nice to see you, gentlemen. When we were talking off the air, you said, and we've had him on the show, and I did a movie with him, the actual problem child, Michael Oliver. Michael Oliver. Johnny in the 80s, early 90s. Well, let me set you up before we get to that.

Mark is the host of a terrific podcast called The Carson Podcast that you guys should know about. In fact, we get mail about your show. Oh, that's nice. I do the same about you guys. Well, that's nice because we're both doing shows about the golden age of show business. Yours is very specifically geared toward Mr. Carson. That's correct. And how many have you done?

I think we've released, I think, 115. I've done probably 125. Wow. Yeah. It's a great show. Thank you. It's a great show. And we'll get into detail, but satisfy Gilbert.

Tell him he's Michael Oliver. Michael Oliver did the show, did The Tonight Show starring Johnny Carson, plugging Problem Child. And that was when he was definitely having kids on the show. He went through a time period where Quinn Cummings, you remember her? Of course. I follow her on Twitter. Goodbye, girl.

So in her memoir, I wanted to try to get her on, but she was very nice about it. But apparently, and I watched the tape, she went on with Johnny and Carson wouldn't have kids on for something like a year after she was on. I mean, she calls it disastrous. I watched the videotape and you could tell Johnny's patience was waning. It was really, really hard. So it was really tricky with kids. They either scored with Carson. I mean, that one kid who was a spelling bee champion. It's like the famous clip he goes on with Johnny and Johnny's doing coin tricks for him and he's like, how do you really make the money disappear? You get married.

It's a famous Carson clip. He was either really good with kids or they just didn't go well. Interesting. Yeah, but Michael Oliver Joey Lawrence I remember him doing very well with. Yes. That's a classic. He was up, Joey Lawrence said that he only got to see the show once when he was nauseous up late at night.

And Johnny did the looking into the camera, the direct thing. And that always made the anniversary shows. But Michael Oliver did okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you never got to do the show. No.

Never did the Carson show. Yeah. You did a ton with Leno. Oh, yeah. You did a ton of the Tonight shows with Leno, but never did a Carson. It definitely. Sometimes if Jim McCauley and Johnny perceived a comedian as being too David Letterman, they did Letterman a lot. They wouldn't necessarily get to do the show with Johnny.

So you were more – considered more 1230 than 1130, I think. Oh, I think so. You did a handful of Lettermans. Oh, loads of Lettermans. He used to call me in for those sketches in the beginning of the show. Those were fun. Now, what I found really odd growing up when Carson was on the air is, you know, there's been a million, you know, urban legends and showbiz urban legends.

urban legends and showbiz urban legends. But with Carson, what was so sick about it, there'd be these urban legends about Carson which everyone would swear to you they saw. The Jane Fonda thing,

it never happened. We're talking about Zsa Zsa. It never happened. Yeah. I mean, there's... It's just a myth. It's just a myth. Just a TV myth. I mean, the thing that's a myth it's just a myth just a TV myth

I mean the thing that's a myth to me that I only know one person that has a tape and I've never seen it is I sat down with Rich Little in Vegas

and he says he has the tape of Dick Shawn destroying the Tonight Show set but I've not talked to anybody that's ever actually seen it I've talked to people in the Carson camp

people say that they think it happened some people but no one has the videotape other than rich little and i have to watch it didn't you have dick sean yeah she had a cat in her lap according to legend as the story goes yeah and and carson uh as she said to carson would you like to pet my pussy and, yeah, if you'd get the damn cat out of the way. I have seen clips of Jane Fonda telling that story.

That was near the... Johnny retired May 22nd, 92. And that was, I think, in the last month or so. It was definitely near the end that she told that. But there are people that are convinced it happened. I'm glad you said the date, by the way, because that's what we're doing here. That's why I'm here. It's 25 years ago this week that Johnny.

Can you believe it? Yeah. May 22nd, Johnny left the air. And there was another story that there was some actress on who was a lesbian. And she said, oh, I'd like to show you the love of my life. And then she points to this woman in the crowd. And according to legend, Carson goes, oh, what a waste. Wow.

I have never heard of that. I don't know that one either. You know, the first 10 years were erased, most of them. I was going to ask you about that. There are some that were saved. I was with Ed Ames. I couldn't believe Scott Rogowski, our friend Scott Rogowski. Yes, our mutual pal Scott. I was heading to L.A.. There are some that were saved. I was with Ed Ames. I couldn't believe Scott Rogowski, our friend Scott Rogowski.

Yes, our mutual pal Scott. I was heading to LA and he said, do you know who's still around? Ed Ames. And I said, you have to be kidding me. Yep. So I reached out and Ed Ames personally called me

and sure enough, I sat down with him. It's one of your best episodes. Oh, it was really amazing to hear him talk about the tomahawk. But that was one of those things where Carson in his brilliance realized we have to preserve this clip. of those things where carson in his brilliance uh realized we have to we have to preserve this clip and i think johnny put it in his drawer and um it's

funny because ed ames mentioned that he would he would go on sometimes with johnny five nights uh in a row and sing the same song they had an hour and 45 minutes um when they first started then it went down to 90 minutes all this time to kill. Can you imagine a late night show now having the same music singer on every night singing the same song five nights? I remember the 90-minute version, and you would get usually an author at the tail end of the show. I mean, Buck Henry told me when they went down to 60 minutes, you lost a lot of the intellectuals. Oh, yeah. It became a completely different show. In the old days, you'd get Calvin Trillin, or you get Herman Mailer or you'd get you'd get Gore Vidal. You'd get Gore Vidal and

you'd get those Irma Bombeck. Johnny wanted to pick up the pace of the show. And that certainly did happen. But I definitely think I have heard from many people that he regretted it. So a little a little origin first. You and I have known each other forever. Yeah. You've known Gilbert a long time. You were at our comedy writers party. That's right. A couple of years ago. How did you and why did you decide to devote what I'm guessing is a large part of your life? Because I know how much effort this show is. Oh, gosh. Into doing a podcast about Johnny.

He was one of those figures that was larger than life when he retired. I think that there was a mystery, almost like J.D. Salinger, when he bid America farewell. And he, I mean, he showed up, what, twice on Letterman doing cameos. And he did The Simpsons. He was, I think he did Bob Hope, 90th birthday. But that was it. It was this fascination. I had so many questions about Carson, about his Tonight Show. His stable of his inner circle never talked publicly. All the books about him, there were very few. Almost all of them were very negative with people that had, in my opinion, I could be wrong. They seemed like that they had a bad experience.

But the people that were actually friends with him, his co-workers, they'd never talked publicly. And I had so many questions. And guess, people were very protective of Johnny. And I will say the Peter Jones documentary on Carson, the American Masters, was I think the thing that started to soften people a little bit. Well, that's where you get the first glimpse into his troubled relationship with his mother in that documentary. That has been a theme. People have told me that.

And his ongoing troubled relationship, I guess you could dare to say, with women. I sat down with Matt Weiner, who created Mad Men, and we talked about the similarities with Carson and with Don Draper, and they're definitely, Johnny was a complicated guy, a very shy person, but talking to David Steinberg and people that knew him, if he felt comfortable with

you, if it was Steve Lawrence, Newhart, Rickles, Peter LaSalle, and Johnny, he was pretty much the same Johnny that you would see on The Tonight Show. It's just around, if he did not know the person, he would not make eye contact a lot of times. He would put his head down, and he was just painfully, painfully shy. And the Jerry Lewis character in King of Comedy was based on Carson.

Jerry Langford. As the story goes, Johnny was approached to play that part. He tried to get De Niro, I believe, to be a guest. I think he was trying to barter because De Niro, back then, Hoffman, Street, Pacino, they all do the late night shows. None of them went on Carson. Maybe Hoffman early

in his career before he was Hoffman, really Hoffman, but people didn't do those shows. And De Niro, and I think probably rightfully so, said, I would not be good on your show. But they did try to get Johnny. But Freddy DeCordova was wonderful. Oh, well, Freddy turns up. Yeah, he's in the King of Comedy.

Yeah. Let's ask you about Freddy since it kind of comes up in the research I did in listening to your episodes. And that Freddy apparently did not do a lot of work. That LaSalle gets the lion's share of the credit. And I don't want to malign a dead man. It's amazing. But that he kind of slept's share of the credit. And I don't want to malign a dead man. It's amazing. But that he kind of sleptwalked through the job. 22 years of being charming and drinking vodka, apparently, during the show.

And that he just exuded charm. So many people I talked to that worked on the show said he was funny, charming, handsome man. And that Peter LaSalle was happy to do the work. And Freddie just would stay in his office, 80 degrees, smoky. I talked to one guest recently that said that they would joke he was the devil because his office was always hot and smoky. Did you ever meet him, Gil? As Rickles used to call him, Dekutava, Dekadova.

He used to mangle his name. As a matter of fact, because he worked also when Leno was doing it. Yes, he was a consultant. He was there for uh i think the first couple years and and he he said and i had been doing these like uh guest spots for those sketches lana would call me in for and one time de cordifer asked one of the writers, he said, who is that kid? And he goes, that's Gilbert Gottfried. He's a comedian.

He's been in these movies, these TV shows. He's all over the place. And he goes, oh, I thought he was some kid like a busboy or something. How flattering. Oh, yeah, something. How flattering. Yeah. DeCordova was larger than life, and everybody says that if he perceived a weakness and saw a vulnerability,

that he would just go for the jugular. Really? And he and Johnny just couldn't believe it, and a lot of people that knew him couldn't believe it. He went broke. I mean, when he passed away, Johnny sent Fred's widow, Janet, a check for $100,000.

And he just, I guess she was a spendthrift. That's what I've been told. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this. And now back to the show. Why did they fall out? Why did they, why did Freddy go broke? No, why did he fall out with Johnny? Oh, that's it

okay so rick carson i believe was uh 39 years old johnny's son passed away as a photographer and it was a horrible accident i don't think johnny did the show for something like six weeks it was definitely took like a month off and it was I've talked to people that said that when he came in for the first day he had been gone a month, Johnny, people were worried about him. He got through the show the first night and at the very end they did a tribute to his son

and he said a minute or two just talking about his son and just this outpouring of love from the public and then they showed a clip montage of his son's photography. But when he was setting everything up, and I've heard other people that have studied this film, I think Bill Zamey, who is a Carson expert,

said he studied this film like the Zimbruder film. You can see, and I've watched it, I have watched it many times, you can see it for a split second carson looking over off camera and it's de cordova apparently he's on the phone or giving that rapid up sign or something like that because the show was done in real time i mean we can talk about that later that if they they did not stop tape unless bella reese had a stroke when she was guest hosting the show they know that gill no yeah they had to stop tape we can talk about those and. And there was a John Davidson thing where they stopped tape? Yes, we can talk about all of that. But so there are people over there that told me it was one of the rare times they actually saw Johnny really irate.

I mean, he was – after the show, he told Fred DeCordova, you will never step foot on the set of a tonight show again. Was he speeding him up through his – was he – Yeah, he was. He was exactly to stay. His son's tribute. To stay on within the 60 minutes. It was the, yeah. So Johnny, I mean, it was just so hard for Johnny to do this.

And yeah, DeCordova kept up the appearances that he was still running things. He would go into the guest dressing room. But Peter LaSalle, the last two years or so, was running the show. And Fred would be off to the side, not even in the studio, but just in offices and apparently would make snide comments about Johnny. It's like, Johnny, Fred, what's it like to work with a genius? And he's like, well, I did work with one genius. His name was Fred Allen. Wow. Wow. It seems like it was a strange place to work from everything you hear. And, you know, you had Mike Reese on the show. We had him here.

Well, the writers didn't even interact with him. They didn't meet him. You know, it's interesting that you say that. Except for maybe a select few. Back in the 60s, there was a period where Marshall Brickman was head writer and they would go every month or so to the U.N., to Johnny's apartment. And the writers would sit down with him. And the last couple of years, uh, Daryl Vickers and Andrew Nichols, they were head writers and they went to Johnny and they said, you know, I, I, we think it would be good for you to sit down with the writers. And Johnny started having the writers. I think it was

weekly to Malibu to sit down with him and that changed. And, uh, and he, he definitely, I mean, I don't know if you guys know this, but in retirement he would have lunch with his writers and his writers would actually give him material and he would perform it at the lunches for them. I didn't know that. I know he was sending material to Dave at the end. Exactly. Exactly. Peter Lozelli said you need to send this in.

But the thing is, is when I was when I was, you know, when he left, Carson left the show when I was a teenager and you'd read things every so often about Johnny, very rare. The media liked to play it off that he was this recluse guy, but he was taking magic lessons. He was going to Africa with Bob Wright on safaris with Jim Fowler. He was learning Swahili. He was still doing the poker game. He was out and about. I mean, he definitely would retreat on the Serengeti, his yacht,

and he definitely was a loner. I mean, there's no question about that. And a lot of people that would spend time with him, like Carl Reiner would say, you never really got personal with him. But he definitely was not a Howard Hughes type person that was just hiding in the corner by himself. He was out and about. And what are these stories where they had to stop filming? That is a good question. So there are very few. They stopped taping. Della Reese, when she guest hosted, had a stroke. They stopped. John Davidson. Apparently, the story goes, John told me that I don't know if there was a strike or not, but there was there was something wrong with the sound where Johnny couldn't hear the laughs from the monologue. So he thought he bombed and then John Davidson got up and couldn't.

The monitor was messed up. So he kicked, I think, a speaker and the electricity all went down and they had to put a rerun on that night. They had to stop tape, rerun that night. Wow. And that was, yeah, those were two. I know that at one point they had to stop tape where a gentleman from the audience actually got up onto this, made it to the stage. I think Carson was interviewing Buddy Hackett and the audience member just sat down and Carson went, tried, you know, he's like, yes and in it, tried to go with it for a little bit.

And Buddy Hackett said, you know what, this is never going to air. And they stopped tape. And Carson was upset. Did you know that, Gil? That's good stuff. Somebody from the audience went out and sat next to Hackett. There's another one. There's a comedian who, Tom Shales, I talked to him, and I forget who it is.

Shales even told me, but there was a comedian that went out that just went completely blank. Nowadays, on certain shows, they will have kind of a cheat sheet, a cue card for the comedians, but Johnny and Dave didn't do that. And there's a guy that just came out that just, he came out five seconds of panic and I guess ran behind the curtain. And Johnny stopped taping. You know, Johnny was a comedian's comedian. You know, he really cared. And he said, let's stop tape.

This can happen to anyone. We're going to do this again. So he was compassionate. He was. About it. But then again, you have someone like John Davidson again who another time forgot his song lyrics. Now, my dad went to 6B, the sixth floor of NBC in the 60s. Barbara McNair and Doug McClure were on.

Doug McClure had his music on cue cards. John Davidson said you had the option if you wanted cue cards or not if you were a singer. I was at the first Letterman ever on August 30th 30th 93 Billy Joel absolutely had cue cards to No Man's Land it was I I very rarely would I ever see though uh and I worked in late night a little bit um see somebody that had cue cards John Davidson this time I think it was in the 80s said no I don't need cue cards for this song and he he lost his words the words very very quickly and and turned to Johnny can we stop tape? And Johnny said,

absolutely not. And John, and it was an amazing segment. I mean, now, nobody does the show in real time. I mean, they're the first ones to stop it. It's such an amazing segment and, you know,

he eventually gets it and the audience is just, he's endeared himself to the audience and those vulnerable moments, that stuff just very rarely. I think there was a moment recently on Seth Meyers that he had a problem with a cue card with Wally, who I know, Ferriston. And it was this really cool exchange. But it just seems that those moments very rarely happen.

Let's talk about Ed Ames a little more in detail because it was interesting. And thank you, Scott Rogowski, for making that happen. And he's still with us. Ed Ames is still singing. Yeah. He looks incredible. He's still out there. But the famous tomahawk.

Oh, yeah. He throws it and it hits the target in the crotch. Right, right. And I found out from listening to your episode that he didn't know what he was doing. He wasn't an experienced. They sell him because he's playing. What character was he playing? It was Daniel Bo He wasn't an experienced... They sell him. Because he's playing... What character was he playing? He was in Daniel Boone, right?

Daniel Boone. And they sell him like, oh, he's an experienced... He had no idea. He had no idea. And it was one of those things where... He's teaching the rotation of the axe, but he's winging it.

And you can see, I mean, Johnny's brilliance. I mean, he hits the crotch, the audience explodes, and Ed aims, he's going to go pick the axe out, and's brilliance. I mean, he hits the crotch. The audience explodes. And Ed Ames is goes for the he's going to go pick the axe out and Johnny stops him. And it has been called and I don't know how if this is an actual record, but it's been called the longest sustained laugh from a studio audience. And if you go to YouTube and you watch the clip, it very may well be. He's got great instincts because Ames is about to go retrieve the axe. Johnny pulls on him, stops him, and he kills time by pretending he's sharpening the two axes,

waits for the audience to die down because he's got the line, because he's got the saver. What is that? It's like, don't tell, something about being Jewish? He says, I didn't know you were Jewish. And then he also, I think before that, he says to him, he goes, I don't think you can hurt him any worse. But again, the first 10 years, I mean, almost everything was wiped.

Was Groucho on the first episode? Yeah. The first episode was actually, the first 15 minutes was all Groucho. Can you imagine, Gil? Wow. Wiped out. Erased. It's Groucho over the first 15 minutes.

He introduces Carson, and you had six months of America waiting to see Johnny while he was contractually obligated to ABC. They would not allow him out of his contract, so you had the six months. He's doing the game show. Six months of guest hosts where you had Mort Saul, you had Jerry Lewis, you had Jimmy Dean, you had Merv Griffin. You had Jimmy Dean. You had Merv Griffin. You had, I'm trying to think who else, but you had this parade of Jack Carter, of the guest host, leading up in Skitch, Henderson, and Hugh Downs. That's right. And leading up to October 1st, 62, where you had Groucho Marx.

And it was this, people, I don't know if people know what a big media event this thing was. I mean, it was so built up. And Johnny has Groucho bring him on after 15 minutes and then it's Mel Brooks, 36-year-old Mel Brooks, 36-year-old Tony Bennett, Rudy Valli, and Joan Crawford. How about that? Wow. Gone to the dustbin

of history. First of all, the idea that Mel Brooks and Tony Bennett were ever 35. Yeah, 36. But yeah. Sure. And Brooks did this thing.

He reverted to borscht belt and he got up on his desk and he was actually, he told me that Tony Bennett was ticked because he was making fun of Tony Bennett. He was mocking Tony Bennett singing high. And somebody told me, and I don't know if this is true, that that's when Tony Bennett was debuting I Left My Heart in San Francisco. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. We're going to stop, but this

is so good. We're going to come back for a part two. Let's do it. What do you think of that, Ab? I like it. Huh? Gil? Uh, yes. There's more. There's more. There's more Carson to come. There'll be more Carson to come. Gilbert's going to throw an ax at a dummy. End of our first part one of Gilbert Godfrey.

Of Gilbert. One day I'll get the title right. Let's just rename it. Gilbert and Frank's Amazing Colossal Obsessions, The Carson Years. Yes. We're back with more Mark Malkoff next week. Gilbert and Frank's Colossal Obsessions. Gilbert and Frank's Colossal Obsessions.