Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Rick Baker Encore

Episode Date: October 31, 2022

GGACP celebrates Halloween 2022 with this ENCORE of a 2019 interview with Emmy and Oscar-winning makeup master Rick Baker. In this episode, Rick talks about local horror hosts, gorilla suits, Aurora model kits, "Famous Monsters of Filmland" and the enduring influence of makeup legends Jack Pierce and Dick Smith. Also, Eddie Murphy ups his game, Milicent Patrick gets her due, Rick transforms Martin Landau into Bela Lugosi and Christopher Lee dresses up as...Christopher Lee. PLUS: "The Thing with Two Heads"! In praise of Ray Harryhausen! The ingenuity of Lon Chaney! The guerilla cinema of Larry Cohen! And Rick accepts an Oscar from Vincent Price! (Special thanks to our friend Patton Oswalt) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Peloton has everything you need to help you get going. Get a head start on summer with Peloton and choose a flexible payment plan that works for you at onepeloton.ca slash financing. Hi, I'm Mick Garris, and I'm with is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast. I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. Our guest this week is an occasional actor, a designer, a guerrilla expert, a self-described monster maker, an Emmy winner, self-described monster maker, an Emmy winner, and a seven-time Academy Award winner, and arguably the most admired and celebrated makeup and special effects artist in the history of cinema. His screen credits, achievements, and contributions to the art form would take an entire show to list. So here are just a few. The Exorcist, It's Alive, King Kong, Live and Let Die, Star Wars,

An American Werewolf in London, Harry and the Hendersons, Ed Wood, Men in Black, Coming to America, Gremlins 2, Gorillas in the Mist, The Nutty Professor, Planet of the Apes, Hellboy, The Wolfman, and Dr. Seuss, How the Grinch Stole Christmas. Dr. Seuss, How the Grinch Stole Christmas. He even worked on a movie we love to talk about on this show, The Thing with Two Heads. In a career that started way back in the late 1960s, he's worked side by side with some of the industry's most creative and accomplished filmmakers, including George Lucas, Tim Burton, Steven Spielberg, Brian De Palma, John Carpenter, John Landis, Guillermo del Toro. He's going to get you for not pronouncing his name. Francis Ford Coppola, David Cronenberg, and Peter Jackson,

as well as our one-time podcast guests, Joe Dante and Larry Cohen, and his late mentor, 700-page extravaganza highlighting his 40-plus year journey through Hollywood. Frank and I were lucky enough to get a couple of copies, and our jaws are still hanging open. and our jaws are still hanging open. We're thrilled and excited to welcome to the show an artist of unique vision and talents and a fellow monster kid that we've wanted on this show from the very beginning, the ingenious Rick Baker.

Boy, I think I'm too good to be on this show after hearing that. Well, who isn't? Now, we've had similar childhoods because I think we were both pathetic kids

who fell in love early on with monsters, whether classic, universal, or beneath the monogram. And I think we both would run to the candy store whenever the

latest issue of Famous Monsters of Filmland came out. Yeah, I had a hard time finding Famous Monsters. I don't know how it was with you, but for me, it was really hard to find. Really? Yeah. My first, the first one I found,

you know, I was like a latchkey kid. Both my parents worked and we had no daycare, you know, so my mom would take me to the supermarket and I always hated doing that. But I'd look through the magazines and one day there was issue number three of Famous Monsters and it was like, this has monsters on it. And I got so excited, but my mom wouldn't let me buy, but I think it's because she didn't really have the 35 cents. But every time after that, when she wanted me to go to the supermarket, I gladly went because I kept my allowance and had 35 cents so I could find one.

But it wasn't until issue number six that another one came out in that market. But yeah, Famous Monsters is the responsibility for my crazy life. I remember Famous Monsters. There was like about 60% bullshit. Because they would have like, it was very popular to have like about five articles in it that said, reprinted by popular demand. When did you start? What was the first one you got? Oh, I forget which one.

When did you start? What was the first one you got? Oh, I forget which one. I remember my sister, Arlene, wanted me to go somewhere with her, and I kept saying no, and she said, I'll buy you a monster magazine. And then when I got that, I was hooked. Your first issue was a bribe. Yes, yes.

Were you Monster Times guys as well, Rick, or just – I had a couple issues of that, but it was mostly – I mean, it was Famous Monsters, Mad Monsters, Horror Monsters, Castle of Frankenstein. Those were the big ones. Then later it was like Fantastique and Fangory. Sure, sure. And I remember, too, when I was a kid, in Famous Monsters, it said that Lon Chaney Jr. wasn't feeling well. And they gave an address, and I sent a get-well card. And I got back. I have it in a frame in my house, like this postcard of the Wolfman, and it's signed Lon Chaney. That's pretty cool.

I don't, you know, the funny thing is I rarely read famous monsters. I looked at the pictures more than anything else. I'm a bit dyslexic, I think. You know, I have a real hard time reading. And, you know, there was, Foray had all those stupid puns and stuff. Ah, yes, yes. But, I mean, I read the articles, like, you know, Dick Smith did a number of articles on how he did things,

and I read those and, you know, looked at the pictures with the magnifying glass to try to see what they said on the jars and things like that. Because, you know, it was a time the information wasn't out there, and Famous Monsters was a film magazine that, you know, let me know that people did this, and people did it for a living. And that's, you know, I kind of, prior to that, I kept saying I wanted to be a doctor. Wow. It's in the book. It's fun. Yeah. Your parents were so proud of you. Yeah. And, you know, both my parents, you know, my dad was a high

school dropout cause he had to go work to help support his family. And my mom went to high school only, but you know, they liked the idea that I was going to be like a professional and go to college and stuff. So I had the most amazing parents. I mean, they were very supportive and positive thinkers. And when I went to my mom and told her that I didn't want to be a doctor anymore, she didn't hit me and send me to my room.

When I told her I wanted to make monsters instead, I'm sure that was quite a shock. I mean, going from a doctor to a guy who was going to make monsters for movies but didn't she say that's not a career that's not a real job yeah yeah she did yeah because yeah i began the it's not a real job and go yes it is i i read about it in famous monsters jack pierce you know jack pierce did it you know these people were in total john chambers you know and and uh you know. And they were incredibly supportive. And my dad was also a very creative person, and it was kind of discouraged in his lifetime. And I benefited from that when he saw the creativity in what I was doing.

That's sweet. And he was really my first teacher. I mean, he knew how to paint. He knew a little bit about sculpting. Wow. And he was a horror. Both my parents liked horror movies. I mean, I call them monster movies.

I'm not a slasher movie fan. You know, I like the more sympathetic, you know, Frankenstein, Hunchback of Notre Dame, those kind of things. You know, before it was, movies are all about the most graphic ways you can kill a teenager, you know. And also in my living room, I have the Frankenstein poster from Famous Monsters. Yeah. And. The six foot Frankenstein? Yes, yes, yes.

The Jack Davis? Did you see the one? No, not the Jack Davis. The other one. Oh, the other one. I know when you talk about it. Yeah, I had that one too. Yeah, I didn't have the Jack Davis one.

And I'm sorry I didn't because I did recently, you know, as Frank, as you mentioned, I'm retired. But everybody always says on my Instagram, because I post stuff on Instagram, that you're the busiest retired guy in the world, because I make stuff every day. I still work. And one of the reasons I retired is so I could make the things I want to make without all the interference from other people. Well, that's good to hear. And I have, from the back of Famous Monsters, they had, you know, it was a drawing that they showed. And it was like that you could order a Herman the Asiatic Insect.

Here's where you brought it with Kirk Hammett. And this is like in the drawing, you see this giant monster jump out of a box with fangs and long nails and hair and everyone screaming and running away. And then I got the thing. It's about the size of a matchbox. And inside there's a stick with some fuzz glued on and a rubber band for antennas. It was the worst piece of shit in the world. I still have it.

Sylvia's laughing at her. You know, the Captain Company, which was the mail order part in the Famous Monsters, were notorious for... I mean, you're lucky you got it. I ordered like a two-year The mail order part in the famous monsters were notorious. You're lucky you got it. Yeah.

I ordered like a two-year subscription, which I had to save my money for the longest time. And if you got this two-year subscription, you were supposed to get a copy of Brave Ghouls magazine, which had a picture of Charlie Gamora from The Monster and the Girl, a really cool ape suit that he made. So I sent off for this and never got it. My mom used to work in a bank, so she got me a certified check when I sent the money out. And so I sent off for this, never got it. I, you know, I, my mom used to work in a bank,

so she got me a certified check when I sent the money out. And so I sent a copy of that. I said, you never sent me this. I want my magazines, you know, I want my Brave Ghoul magazine. And I never, I, they sent me one issue, which was an issue I already bought. And that was all I ever got. You know, I mean, Jim Warren was kind of notorious for... Oh, he's famous. He's still around, I think. Yeah, probably still. You know, where's my breakthrough magazine, Jim? Exactly.

And I remember, I don't know if it was Captain Company, and I'm sure you remember this, that you could order a pet monkey. Yeah. And I heard with that, it was a completely illegal operation. You weren't supposed to be sending live animals in the mail.

And when they'd get these monkeys, they'd either be dead or dying. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Are you sure they were alive? Yeah. or dying. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Are you sure they were alive? Yeah, I think a few kids opened the package and found the dead monkey.

We had your friend Joe Dante on the show, Rick, and we brought that up with him. He disputed Gilbert. He said, I can't believe that ever happened or that ever existed. So we did a deep research dive into it. Yeah, I remember seeing that ad. It was a little squirrel monkey in the picture. Correct. Yes, yes.

In someone's hand, the palm of someone's hand. Or in a teacup they'd have it. That was, and it was hard. Yeah, it was diseased and dying. Oh my god. Here's something in the book that Gilbert would relate to, too, Rick, is that you were talking

about how, in those days, obviously, no VCRs if there was something on that you wanted to watch you had to be there we talk about this a lot on the show and your parents were sports very touching your parents were sports fans but you would tell them you would time when Mighty Joe Young in your head there was a moment where they had to change the channel so you could watch Mighty Joe Young yeah well you know like you said no VCR and and you know those movies you know I lived for those movies when they were on television.

We used to have a thing called the Million Dollar Movie. I don't know if they had that in New York. Absolutely. The same movie every night all week. And so I would time... I think we had a different song, actually. I would time where the cool scenes were. I remember, you know, Kal Tiki, the Immortal Monster.

There's a scene where, you know, a diver goes in the water and comes up and, you know, it was just like a skull in a diving mask, you know, but it was the cool scene in the movie that you wait for. Kal Tiki, the Immortal Monster. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but you used to scan TV listings like Gilbert did. Yes, and the worst moment of my childhood, and there were many, was they would have every afternoon Route 66,

and I had read there was an episode called Owlet's Wing and Lizard's Paw that had Peter Lorre, Boris Karloff, and Lon Chaney Jr. And I would look out for it every day. The one day I didn't look out for it, I found out it aired that day. Oh, man. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, people, I say this to my kids now, my daughters, that it was a different world.

We had a television and there were a few channels, and I would scour the TV guide trying to find these things. And if you didn't watch it when it was on, you didn't see it until it was on again a year from now or whatever. It's not instant gratification like it is now. But it was the sympathetic, it was Frankenstein that lured you in you the Universal Monsters

in particular yeah is what touched you the Universal Monsters still I mean I I watch them you know if I flip through the TV when I

you know I'm eating my lunch or something and there's a the Universal Monster movie on I'll watch it you gotta watch them I have I have every copy of the

you know LaserDisc you know VHS you know the Blu-ray you know and I still watch it and Spang the, you know, LaserDisc, you know, VHS, you know, Blu-ray, you know, and I still watch it. And Sven Gulli, you know. Yes, Sven Gulli runs them. I've been on Sven Gulli a few times.

I know, I saw you. Yeah. And, you know, I find it so exciting that there's still a horror show host. And I did, as part of this book promotion thing, which I appreciate all the great things you said about the book. Did you guys actually get hard copies or PDFs? This is so weird because I was going to be taking a long plane trip. And I said to my co-host, Frank, I said, oh, you know, that'll be good. I'll have something to read on the plane. And he said, are you out of your mind?

And I thought, how fucking heavy can a book be? And I received it and it was like a refrigerator. 17 pounds, it says right on the box. It's not something you want to carry around with you. When I did Comic-Con, I was not that excited. I don't like to travel that much and I wasn't all that excited. And then when I found out Sven Gulli was going to be there, I went You know, I was not that excited. I don't like to travel that much. And, you know, I wasn't all that excited. And then when I found out Svengoolie was going to be there, I went, okay, I'm going. And that was the highlight.

You know, there's pictures of me with Svengoolie and my family. I'll say, we've never seen you smiling so big. That's nice. Oh, and did you used to get, in New York, we had Zachary. I only knew Zachary from the famous monsters. We didn't get him in California, or at least I'd never saw him. But, yeah, I knew who he was for sure, yeah. I only got the PDF so far.

Chris is working on it to answer your question. But even in PDF form, it's a massive, I mean, what an undertaking. Well, it's my life, you know, and I'm almost 69 years old now, and I've been doing stuff since I was 10, you know. And I'm kind of a hoarder in that I save the things that I do and also lots of other stuff that my wife always gives me a hard time about. For our listeners, Sylvia, Rick's wife, is sitting in the corner, and she's nodding. And she just put her hand against her mouth and said,

I'm not saying anything. One of those wives who understands. Like, obviously, Gilbert's wife also is accepting of the fact that they've got a 30-foot Frankenstein poster

in their living room. So Sylvia's obviously a simpatico. Well, when we first started living together, we've been married now for almost 35 years, I guess, but we lived together for a while first. And the house we moved into together,

the living room was full of monsters and skeletons and all this kind of stuff. And my wife is very feminine, and she has a lot of girlfriends, and she'd have tea parties. And they would be in the living room room drinking tea all dressed like nice women with skeletons and mummies and monsters all around. I always just thought that was really funny. Oh, and this is how much of a fan I am and a crazy person.

Fan I am, and a crazy person. When my son was born, we decided he'd need, my wife said he'll need an A name as a middle name. And I was insisting, I really wanted his middle name to be Alucard. Which, for anyone who doesn't know it, and shame on you if you don't, in Son of Frankenstein, he spells Dracula backwards, and it's Alucard.

And in Dracula in 1972 AD or whatever, AD 1973 or whatever it is. Oh, yeah. The Alucard, Peter Cushing does the same thing, but he draws a line from, you know, he writes Dracula and he writes Alucard underneath. He draws a line from the D in the front of Dracula to the D at the end of Alucard and figures it out.

That's if the audience are a bunch of fucking idiots that can't be just told, no, it's backwards. Hold it in front of a mirror. Now that you brought those names up, Rick, did you meet those guys in your travels? You must have met Cushing and Lee. I never met Cushing. I did meet Christopher Lee because he's in Gremlins 2.

Right, right, of course. And we were really excited about that. And he was a great guy. And we actually, when I opened my big studio, which is now closed, and he was a great guy. And we actually, uh, we had, when I opened my big studio, which is now closed, but, uh, we had a giant Halloween party and it was really Hollywood throws a Halloween party and it was, you know, decorated to the max and, and Christopher Lee came, you know, and the thing was you had to come in costume. It was, you know, for somebody

like me, you know, it was a really important Christopher Lee came as Christopher Lee, and I was like, okay. And Martin Landau came as Martin Landau, but I forgave him for that. And you had the chance, and it was a great makeup job, of making Martin Landau into Bela Lugosi. Yeah, that was, you know, I'm a Tim Burton fan, first of all, and a Bela Lugosi fan, and an Ed Wood fan. When I heard that movie was being made, I contacted Tim. I had met Tim previously when he just was right out of CalArts, Tim and Rick Heinrichs both. And we talked a number of times about different films that never happened. But when I saw this, someone showed me an article on the trades that they were doing this.

So I contacted Tim and I just said, I have to do this. I'll do it for free. He pretty much took me up on that. But I mean, I got an Oscar. There was a payoff. Yeah. And I was doing another movie at the time, which I usually don't like to do two things at once. But I had to do this. So V. Neil applied the makeup

on a daily basis. I made the appliances, did the initial tests, and worked it out. But it was a fun project. I wish I was there the whole time. I really wanted to be there when they were filming the Bride of the Monster stuff and that cheesy set. Weren't you hoping to do some Tor Johnson makeup, too?

I was. I said, what about Tor? And then they got this guy, what was his name? George the Animal Steel. Oh yeah, the wrestler. Kind of looked like Tor. Close enough. We did lenses for him. I think it's Tim's best movie. It's wonderful. We're friends with Scott and Larry too.

They really outdid themselves. Scott and Larry wrote the Problem Child movies. There you go. I didn't know that. But when I read the script, I was blown away. And that's when I also felt it's tempting to put too much on somebody. And Martin's face was wrong in so many ways.

I mean, Lugosi had a very round face. And Martin had a rectangular, long rectangular kind of face, and Martin has big, full lips, and Bela had basically no upper lip. I was tempted to add stuff to the sides of his face, but when I read the script, and I just, you know, he has to be real, you know, and I wanted really, it's a less is more. I just really want to get the essence of Lugosi and not cover up too much of the actor. And I think it worked out pretty well. Worked out for him as well as you.

Yeah, Dan. He owes me. Yeah. And, well, it's funny. I always remember that Martin Landau said he won the award that was supposed to go to Bela Lugosi. Well, that was nice of him, yeah. Yeah, and in your speech you thanked Jack Pierce. Well, you know, I mean, he was my,

you know, Jack Pierce and Lon Chaney were the first inspirations, you know, and then there was the Dick Smith connection, which was the, you know, the amazing thing that really happened to me is to be able to meet Dick, you know, and he, his work was just above anybody else's. I mean, I, you know,

again, before the internet, you know, and he, his work was just above anybody else's. I mean, I, you know, again, before the internet, you know, I went to the library to find information and, and there was a book on stage makeup that had some, some pictures of Dick Smith stuff. And then I eventually found, they ordered for me a book called The Technique of Film and Television Makeup. And they have, there were pictures in there that I just went, oh, this looks so real. And it was like Dick Smith. And then I turned the other pages and there's another one. This one looks real. And that was Dick Smith.

So I became a major Dick Smith fan. And Dick Smith, among a million other films, did The Godfather and The Exorcist. And when you see The Exorcist, the audience goes, oh, yeah, Linda Blair and the monster makeup. And what people don't realize is Max von Seder was like 40 when he did that. And you accept the fact that he's an old man in the movie. Right. And he looks very

much like that now. Now he looks like him. I was going to mention that when you mentioned The Exorcist is one of my movies. It's really a Dick's movie. I just was an assistant to Dick you mentioned The Exorcist is one of my movies. It's really a Dick's movie. I just was an assistant to Dick. Well, we just met. You worked on it.

Yeah. It counts as a credit. Yeah. Yeah. But the stuff. Go ahead, Gil. Oh, no. I was going to say another movie you should have your name added to if it's not added already.

That you're responsible for the makeup in, aside from doing the great makeup job in American Werewolf, the howling was a lot of your makeup ideas. Yeah. I mean, I have a credit on there. Oh, you do? Yeah. Makeup consultant. Yeah.

Well, my protege, Rob Bottin, did that film. Rob came to me as a 13-year- old kid who never did makeup and and wanted to learn and he could draw really well and and i kind of took him under my wing i wanted to be like dick smith and i uh you know taught him too well because he showed me up in the thing you know when he did john carpenter's the thing he just like you know showed everybody up with that stuff but yeah I you know John had written American War when we did Schlock which was John's first film my second and

you know he wrote it I think when he was 20 or something and he told me the whole story and you know he said I want to do this transformation in a way you know it doesn't make sense to me that it doesn't make sense to me that if your body was going through this metamorphosis that you would sit in a chair and be perfectly still until you change.

I want to see the pain. Also, it's not a horror movie in that it takes place in a real apartment and no horror movie lighting. How would you do it? It's like, I don't know, but I would sure love to have the opportunity because we both love those kind of films you know especially the transformations and you know he said well it's going to be my next movie so start thinking about it well you know schlock wasn't a big hit you know and it wasn't until after animal house that john

actually got the money to do this movie but prior to him getting the money i got a call from joe joe dante about the howling uh joe and Mike Finnell, and said, we want to do this werewolf movie, and would you be interested? And I said, yeah, well, now's my opportunity to show off for this transformation that I thought of, and as the way things work, you know, like, I say two weeks later, and Joe, I think, says

it even was less time than that, I get a call from John going, good news, we're doing American Werewolf, and it's like, oh, shit. You know, so when I told John, you know, he was calling me all kinds of names and all kinds, you know, he goes, how could you do this to me? It's like, I'll, I'll make it better. So I, you know, uh, I had already recommended Rob to, uh, to Joe to do some piranhas for, uh, piranha. And so they knew him. And, uh, you know, so I said, I'll consult and we discussed it and Rob took it in his own direction.

He added a lot to it. You know, I mean, the two transformations, though we use similar techniques, they're definitely very different. And to show how good your makeup is, whereas most movies, they go in for this bullshit of like, it's at night during a rainstorm, a thunderstorm, or they smash a light and the light is like flickering. But that American werewolf is in a brightly lit room. Yeah, and I wasn't real excited about that. I said, you know, because these things, you know, it's nice to have a little help. A little shadow here and I said, you know, because these things, you know, it's nice to have a little help.

A little shadow here and there helps, you know. And, you know, the thing was, too, I mean, again, it was a different time. Now there's so many people that do makeup effects and, you know, there's specialized guys who are mold makers or guys who are mechanics or, you know, foam rubber guys. Back then it was a different deal.

And my crew on American Werewolf were kids. And I mean, people that sent me fan mail, I brought one kid out from Texas to work on it and another kid from Connecticut. They're like 18 years old, you know, and I was 30 at the time and 30 with, you know, a handful of 18 year olds who had never worked on movies before. And, and we managed to do something that still looks pretty good. I mean, I cringe when I see the transformation now, because there's so many things that I think I could do so much better, you know, but still not bad for however many years

ago. That's before most of the people listening to this were probably born. What did you say to David Naughton when he walked in? You said, I feel sorry for you? Yeah, that's what he says all the time. It does sound like something I would say because it is tough. He had a tough job.

I mean, we, and especially because, you know, we were making it up as we went along. I mean, people hadn't done this before. And like I said, my crew was kind of inexperienced. And I, you know, on one of the American Werewolf DVDs, they had some behind the scenes footage of us taking a cast of David and we can't get his hand out of the mold and some stuff. and it was like, I cringed when I saw that stuff, you know.

Well, Griffin was here, and he's still traumatized. Yeah, he was very traumatized the first time I made him up, and I mean, he was great. He was really fun to work with and all, but the very first time I made him up as Jack, the torn up, it was the neck torn out, you know, he was just sinking down in the makeup chair and just looking sadder and sadder, and eventually said, Griffin, what's the matter? And he goes, well, look at me. And I go, yeah? And he goes, I mean,

I look horrible. Nobody's going to look at me. This is my big break. And it was like, did you read the script? Yes. And then he said, doesn't it say that your throat's torn out and half your face is missing? Yes. And he goes, but I didn't visualize it that way. And your throat's torn out and half your face is missing yes and he goes but i didn't visualize it that way and it's like well i did you know and and uh so you know landis was already in london scouting location so i had to call john and say you know

you got to talk to griffin because he's really upset and um but i took that opportunity i figured since he's so upset anyways uh because it was progressive degeneration. He got killed by the werewolf. Every time you see him, he's more and more skeletal. And at the inn in the porno theater, he's basically like a talking skeleton. So the only way, because makeup is an additive process, it's really hard to subtract from somebody's face. And I wanted him to look very skeletal,

so I decided I was going to make Jack Stage 3 a puppet. So I told the already upset Griffin, who else? The third stage, you know, you're going to be a puppet. I said, what? And I said, but I want you to operate the job because you can do the lip sync at the same time. And we showed him how to do it, and he was great at it, actually. It's a credit to your makeup because he told us he was traumatized not only by the experience of going through it, and he was great at it, actually. It's a credit to your makeup, because he told us he was traumatized,

not only by the experience of going through it, but remember what he told us, Gilbert? Yes. That seeing himself, that walking around looking like that, he felt like, well, this is what I'm going to be like when I'm dead. This is what I'm going to look like. I mean, it actually, in a strange way, put him in touch with his own mortality. Well, it is a weird thing, too.

And again, that's something I think that's amazing about makeup. touch with his own mortality and well it is a it is a weird thing too you know and and again i that's something i think that's amazing about makeup um when you look through your eyes at the reflection in the mirror but the face that you're used to seeing isn't there anymore it's a different face it you have it's it just gives you this weird feeling you know you're it's your eyes but that face looking back at you is different and that that's part, I was painfully shy as a kid. I'm an only child. I pretty much stayed in my bedroom and made monsters. Had no social skills whatsoever. And I couldn't talk to an adult. And the first time I made myself up, and this was just grease paint, white and black grease paint smeared on my face, I could do things that I couldn't do as the little Ricky Baker. I mean, it was that face in the mirror wasn't mine anymore. And it showed me the power

of makeup. And I think that's the, a real shame, uh, though a lot of great makeups are being done now, but they're doing a lot of stuff CG as well. I don't think, you know, I think it's great when you, when you walk into a set and you see where you are and it's amazing. Part of the magic. Yeah, as opposed to walking into a green screen, you know, or having motion capture dots on you and you don't really know what they're going to be doing with your face. But when you look through your eyes and you see that face and you see what you can do with it, you know, it's an amazing feeling and a cool experience. Mind you, the process is tedious. There are some stories in the

book of actors perhaps losing patience is one way to say it, with the process. There's the Nicholson stuff, there's the Tommy Lee Jones stuff. I mean, with some people, you had your hands full. Well, you know, actors are actors. I guess I can say this because

I've done some acting. It's kind of an insult to real actors to call myself an actor. But I make faces. It's a tough process to go through on a daily basis. And the normal film day is a 12-hour day. Some of these makeups I do are three and a half hours on an average. So you add that to the 12-hour day and then an hour removal time. And I'm not really good at math, but it's a long day. I've spent my career doing these days. And in the pre-production time, too. When I started out, especially in the low-budget independent films, you had very little time to do the work. So it was just you work as many hours a day as you can and

and uh it's what my life has been and it's still doing like i said in my retirement i i still pretty much do i i used to say i do 12 hour days now it's more like 10 i slow down a little bit you know but but it's how i have fun i make stuff and and this is how i entertain myself and how I have a good time. And I think it was Roger Ebert said that a stop motion photography looks phony but feels real. And that computerization looks real but feels phony. Yeah, it's weird. It's hard to, you know i i actually embrace the technology you know people always kind of try to pit the rubber guys against the digital guys and especially when the digital stuff first started happening we went from being the you know the effects experts to the dinosaurs

instantly you know and and i was saying at the time you know i'm sorry but i don't think this stuff looks that good you know i mean if you, if you look at a 90s computer effect, it looks like a bad game that somebody's playing. You look at American Werewolf or Harry and the Hendersons, it still looks pretty good. But it's changed, and I was hoping there would be more of a marriage of the two techniques,

which hasn't happened as much as I wish it would have. Did it necessitate your retirement a little bit, Rick, the move toward computers? It helped some. I mean, I know I did an interview right when I retired for the public radio, and they kind of used the soundbiteilled, you know, the makeup of business kind of thing. And that was one of the things, but not really. I mean, I embraced the technology because, again, I learned from Jack Pierce. You know, Jack Pierce did Frankenstein's Monster,

The Wolfman, Dracula, all the classic Universal movies. In the 40s, the new regime came in and fired him because he was using out-of-the-kit makeup techniques, which other people were using rubber appliances. You know, the Hunchback of Notre Dame, the Charles Lawton was foam rubber in 1939. The Wizard of Oz was foam rubber. Jack was still using, you know, cotton and collodion and stuff. And I made a note of that and go, I'm not going to let this happen to me.

And plus, I like learning and playing with new toys and finding new stuff. So I do a lot of stuff. I mean, I do some computer animation for fun, and I love working digitally. I mean, when I first got a computer, and this was in the late 80s, I mean, we had a computer in the office, but I went in and said, you know, this is so much better than typing on a typewriter, where you don't have to white out stuff, and you can change things around and cut and paste. And so I just wish you could do that with a drawing.

And somebody said, I think there's a program that you can do that. And I started with like, it was actually a program that was called Photomac, I think. And then someone said, Photoshop is better. You should get that. And it was 1.0. And drawing digitally, it took some getting used to,

but the fact that, I call it no fear painting. I mean, when, when you paint something, you know, a lot of times I'll have an idea in my head and it's pretty clear in my head and I start to paint it and the painting isn't exactly what I'm seeing in my head, but the painting itself is good. Then it's like, do I change the painting and risk bringing it up or, and, but make it look more like what I want or do I not do another painting? What do I do? And, you know, digitally now you just save it I want or do another painting, what do I do? And digitally, now you just save it and you can do another one. And the problem is you end up with so many.

I'm in the Wolfman, we had like thousands of designs and they kept saying, do one in between this one and that one. And it got so close, I said, there isn't an in-between. These guys look exactly the same. Just pick something. But I found it very freeing and I found it design-wise, between these guys look exactly the same you know just pick something you know but it's it's uh i found it very freeing and i found it design wise i would try things that i would never try with a pencil or paper or paint and brush and i mean i love this technology i i think like with jack

pierce it's like the next regime of makeup were the westmores well the westmores. Well, the Westmores came in, yeah. I mean, the Westmores were, every makeup department, Westmore was the head of at one point, you know, Paramount, MGM, Universal, yeah, Bud Westmore. Bud was more of a department head. He wasn't so much hands-on.

He hired people to do this stuff. You know, like, for example, the Creature from from Black Lagoon was sculpted by Chris Mueller and designed by Millicent Patrick. But there's pictures of Bud Westmore posing with a really inappropriate sculpting tool. There's one picture of him holding a paintbrush the wrong way around you know. But from what I heard, you know, he would, when the publicity people would come to take pictures,

he would give everybody the afternoon off and then he would go up in the lab and pose with one of the sculptures that he didn't do, you know. And someone told me recently that Millicent Patrick, who designed the creature, Westmore fired her when people started to find out she designed the creature.

Well, there was a book about it. Yeah, yeah. The whole publicity thing around the creature was kind of the Beauty and the Beast thing. Some publicists found out that she was an attractive woman, designed this monster, and they thought it would be a great ad, you know, a great way to promote the movie. And Bud was furious, you know. I mean mean then there was a lot of egos involved i like pierce's white zombie makeup which not a lot of people talk about yeah yeah yeah it's uh i mean he he did some amazing stuff and again i mean you know uh lon chaney i mean this you know i think some of his makeups have never been topped and And what I find interesting, you know, because the techniques he had and the materials he had

were limiting, but in many cases, that limitation, I think, was what made the makeup work so well. You know, it's not, for example, Phantom of the Opera on Lon Chaney, you know, how he had his nose pulled up and all that stuff. I mean, it looks great.

And he makes horrifying faces. In the 50s, they made the story of Lon Chaney's life, The Man of a Thousand Faces, where James Cagney played Lon Chaney. Yes. And the Westmores did the makeup, and it was with a new material, foam rubber. And that Phantom was, you know, I thought it was ridiculous. Yeah, because Cagney, first of all, had the wrong face for Lon Chaney.

Oh, definitely the wrong face. Oh, yeah. And Cagney had that, like, big pug nose. And for that to look like the Phantom, and they didn't, like, whereas Cheney actually pulled his nose up, Cagney was wearing a big rubber appliance that looked like a clown nose. It was a whole big giant foam rubber mask, yeah. I know. And, I mean, you know, in the defense of the making department, Law hens, that looked like a clown nose. It was a whole big giant foam rubber mask, yeah.

I know, and I mean, you know, in the defense of the makeup department, he definitely had the wrong face. You know, I mean, I, it's funny, I've talked to him about it. When I first saw Breaking Bad, I said, you know, Bryan Cranston would make a great Lon Chaney. Someone should do Man of a Thousand Faces with Bryan Cranston playing that part. It's intriguing. And we went to Comic-Con and went to a Breaking Bad panel and went back and met Vince and Bryan Cranston.

And I said, I told him this. And we actually had them over for dinner. And he was really thinking, yeah, that would be kind of cool to play the world's greatest actor. He would be great for it, even though he's now – I mean, Chaney wasn't that old when he died, but he looked old, you know, I mean, it's, you know, the smoking and the drinking and all that stuff kind of happens. I hope that happens.

And Man of a Thousand Faces is one of those pictures. I always loved watching it as a movie, but it's, everything is false about it. Yeah, on this deathbed, Cheney gets his makeup kit and writes a false about it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, on this deathbed. Yes. He gets his makeup kit and writes Junior on it. Yes. Yeah, that was complete bullshit. Like Pride of the Yankees.

That's about how truthful it is. Yeah. But it's kind of, you know, it's a movie, you know. It's like, I know that, you know, when we did Ed Wood, Bale Lugosi Jr. was, like, really upset, you know. He was like, you know, this is not really the way it worked, you know. And, you know, my dad had big dogs, you know,

and he didn't have little dogs, you know, and stuff like this, you know. I mean, who wouldn't want to see a movie that someone made about my dad and just made up a bunch of shit, you know. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast, but first, a word from our sponsor.

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On the subject of Bela, please tell us you love the Black Cat as much as we do. Because we'd love to talk about that one. You know, I just watched some of it the other day. It was on Turner Classic. Oh, yeah. They pulled it out. Yeah. I do, but I still, you know, I'm a monster geek.

You know, I mean, there's not like a monster. I see. You know, a makeup so much. You know, I mean, there is the kind of interesting hairstyle on Boris. Sure. He looked like he was David Bowie. Early David Bowie. And it was the thing with the black cat is most of those movies took place in old haunted houses or laboratories.

And there everything was Art Deco. There's even a digital clock in it. Was there a digital clock? Yes. I like the production design on that one. Yeah. No, it's funny. I had it on TV

and my daughter just came home from work. She's a social worker actually and she goes, oh, what's this? And I said, it's the black cat. I said, it's based on an Edgar Allan Poe story,

only the title. Yes, of course. I was like, what's it about? And I go, kind of, you know, The Black Cat. I said, it's based on an Edgar Allan Poe story, only the title. Yes, of course. I was like, what's it about? And I go, kind of about like torture and stuff, you know. But yeah, I like, you know, I'd watch Frankenstein over The Black Cat. Yeah, sure. Frankenstein over The Black Cat any day. And The Mummy.

Oh, yeah. You know, and The Mummy's kind of slow. It is slow. Yeah, and, you know, again, I watched that the other night, too. It's unsettling, though. It still packs a wallop. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the scene where, you know, he goes for the walk for the first time, you know,

and he leaves the coffin and stuff, and that guy with the manic laughing and stuff. It's really cool. And the mummy looked like it was a remake of Dracula, the whole story. Well, it wasn't. It didn't. What's his name? Carl. Carl Freund. story. Well, wasn't, didn't, what's his name? Carl. Carl Freund.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. I was involved in that, yeah. Let's talk a little bit more. Go ahead, Rick. I just want to talk about Dick Smith a little more, because that's, when you're reading the book, I mean, that's clearly a turning point in your life, is you sitting down and saying, I'm going to write this man a letter. By the way, it's sweet the way your parents come into the picture, too.

Your father's making calls from the payphone. They're really going out of their way for you. Yeah. I mean, again, like I said, my parents were so great and so supportive. But I found Dick's address when I was a kid. I think it was in the seventh grade. We had to look somebody up in Who's Who in America. And I looked up Boris Karloff and Bela Gossin, Vincent Price, you know, and I looked up Dick Smith, not thinking he would really be in there. And he was in there and his address was

in there. So I wrote this down on a piece of paper and I went, oh my God, I have Dick Smith's address. You know, I should write him, but I was afraid and shy. I mean, to me, it was like writing a letter to God, you know, and, and I kept it. I had this cigar box. I mean, to me, it was like writing a letter to God, you know? And I kept it. I had this cigar box where I kept all my really special stuff, you know? I don't know where I got a cigar box. My parents didn't smoke cigars. But when I was graduating from high school, I was born in upstate New York in Binghamton,

but my parents left when I was, like, not even one, lived in California my whole life. Didn't know my grandmother Baker, who still lived in Binghamton. But my parents left when I was like not even one, lived in California my whole life. Didn't know my grandmother Baker who still lived in Binghamton and she was like in her 90s and they said, we want to go back and we want you to meet your grandmother before she passes. And I was like, oh man, I don't want to go. It's like summer now. I can make, I'm out of school, I can make a bunch of masks. And it's like, you know, I got to have two weeks where I have to go and visit some lady I don't really know other than she gives me a dollar in my birthday card, which helped me buy rubber. But then I went, oh, yeah, Dick Smith, New York.

So I got out that little piece of paper with his address in Larchmont and got up the nerve to write him a letter. And I wrote it and then my mom typed it for me. And I sent it off not knowing if he'd still live there. I mean, this was many years later. And I sent him, you know, pictures of things that I had done, copies of his makeups. There's a Quasimodo that he did that actually Eric Hohn wrote the story for, for Way Out. It was like a kind of like a Twilight Zone. Yes, I remember that in Famous Monsters.

Yeah, yeah. They showed the makeup. Right. And I mean, I studied that with a magnifying glass, like I said. So, I mean, I did a copy of that makeup. So, I had a picture of that and I also did an oil painting of that makeup and I had a picture of me with that painting, wearing that makeup. But, you know, the funny thing when we're talking about Larry Cohen, when I did It's Alive, you know, Larry films all of his movies in his house, basically. And we were filming some of It's Alive in his basement.

And in his basement, there's a picture of that Quasimodo makeup with both actors and Larry Cohen. And I went, why is this here? And then he goes, I wrote that. And I went, oh, that's really cool. I got really excited. And I just watched it. It's on YouTube. really cool. I got really excited.

And I just watched it. It's on YouTube. Dave Elsie, who I did The Wolfman with, said, hey, guess what's on YouTube? In the way out False Face, is it called? Yeah, that Larry Cohen wrote is on. What a character. What a wonderful character. Yeah, we had Larry Cohen on the podcast. And I mean,

we both love him. But we wondered afterwards or during how much of it he was full of shit. Well, you tell the Black Caesar story in the book where he had these guys running through the airport. Jumping on the luggage carousels with guns. Guns and blood. Crowded airport. Without a permit. It was LAX. I mean, things, you, yeah, it was LAX.

I mean, this, you know, he, he never got permits for anything he did. I mean, you know, any of the films I did in the seventies

of the low, but independent films where it was really was, you know, no, no permits. You just go out and do it and hope you don't get caught, you know? And,

um, yeah. And, but, you know, also what Larry did, you know, he would be very economical with his stuff.

He, he called me, he would always call me on the day. It was like, hey, come to my house today. I need some blood and gut stuff. Okay. So I pack up my makeup kit. I go to his house off of Coldwater Canyon up there. And I walk in and everybody in the house except for Larry and a couple of the crew members are like black people.

And it's like, what is this? He goes, I'm making a film with the black people and the Black Caesar. And it's like, I wish you would have mentioned that before. You mentioned the blood and gut stuff, but you didn't. Fortunately, I had two African-American colors. There weren't a lot of colors in those days either. And there was kind of a light-skinned, you know, one and a dark one. And I could mix those two to try to match people, you know.

But, you know, it was like you never knew with Larry what was going to happen. You worked on Bone, too, the famous Bone, which I know he shot in his house. Yeah, well, he shoots everything in his house. Right. The other one was done in his house. Yeah, well, he shoots everything in his house. Right. Otherwise, it's done in his backyard. Yeah. And the thing at the airport, I think, like,

now the army would be brought in if he tried that. Well, and also in Black Caesar, you know, what's his name, Fred the Hammer Williams, I think, is walking through the streets of New York, you know, holding his bloody gut, you know,

and this was all, like, you know, with a camera, you know, a long lens from across the street, you know, holding his bloody gut, you know, and this was all like, you know, with a camera, you know, a long lens from across the street, you know, and again, no permits. He's just stealing shots every place. But he had, Larry had some great ideas, I think, you know. I thought he was a very clever guy. And he did that movie

that, you know, total schlock. The White Serpent? Yes! Q! No permit on that one either. They were firing weapons down from the top of the Chrysed serpent? Yes! Q! No permit on that one either. They were firing weapons down from the top of the Chrysler building. Yes! He had to take out an ad apologizing in the time. And it was one of those

things where I remember watching that movie thinking, how does a gigantic serpent flying around the city and no one notices it? Right. I know. Well, Larry was special.

He was. We were so lucky to have him here. Yeah, and I was really sorry to hear of his passing. We were. We were, too. The last thing about Dick Smith, too, to get back to it quickly, not only was it a turning point for you, but not only did he answer your letter, but he invited you into his home. He chased your parents away and he said,

take out a pencil and write all this down. And that he was very, very generous about sharing his secrets. Oh yeah. Well, he had no secrets. I mean, I used to feel really special that he did this, but then I found out he does it for everybody. People would be walking down the street and he'd say, come on in, let me show you how to you know give this notepad you can write this stuff down but you know it was great he because when he he was self-taught uh he started in television nbc in new york when when nbc started and he basically didn't he he did a couple makeups in college for fun and he kind of learned on the job, you know, and he called up Hollywood people to try to find out how to do some of this stuff. And they said, you know, it's trade secrets.

I'm not going to tell you basically. And, you know, in those days, you know, I mean, the adhesive we had back in the old days was spirit gum, which is basically like tree sap with some ether in it. And, you know, makeup artists used to take the label off and just write special adhesive on it and stuff, try to keep a trade secret. So Dick, when he figured out his own way of doing things, and it was a better way, I think, and he just thought, I'm not going to be like those guys. I'm going to tell anybody. And he had a mimeograph machine, if you even remember what those things were,

kind of like a Xerox type thing. And he would, whenever he'd do a, like, for example, the Godfather needed these bullet hits in a different way, he wrote out elaborate notes on, this is what I did, this is what materials I used, this is what I would do differently if I was going to do it again. So he knew that people would write him and ask him, how did you do that?

And he would send him complete ask him, how did you do that? He would send him a book. His monster makeup handbook that he did in connection with Famous Monsters is one of the greatest makeup books ever. Using techniques that kids would have in their kitchen but you could still do a makeup. He made a blood formula using carotid syrup and food color for this magazine booklet.

It's what everybody uses for blood now i mean people there's so many companies that make artificial blood and it's basically the dick smith formula well what a nice thing for you as a kid how old were you when you when you went to the house i was 18 and he took you and he took you to the set of little big man and you got to watch him work yeah it was actually in when he sent me the first letter you know i mean i sent this letter off to him hoping i would get a reply and i would go to the set of Little Big Man and you got to watch him work. Yeah, it was actually in when he sent me the first letter, you know, I mean, I sent this letter off to him hoping I would get a reply and I would go to the mailbox every day, even though I knew that it'd take a while for a letter to get to New York and come back, but I couldn't help myself. And I vividly remember the day where I opened up the mailbox and there was an envelope addressed to me from Dick Smith and it was spongy.

I could feel that something spongy was in it. It took me maybe five minutes before I had the nerve to open it up. When I opened it up, he actually had a rejected foam casting of that Quasimodo makeup that I copied from layout. A picture of the little big man, which he did the first test of.

He said, I'm going to be in Los Angeles. We're going to film it in the Veterans Hospital in Westwood. If you want to watch me put the makeup on, you're welcome. I got to to be in Los Angeles. We're going to film it in the Veterans Hospital in Westwood. And if you want to watch me put the makeup on, you're welcome. So I got to watch him apply that makeup. And in that, a young Dustin Hoffman is made to look 100. 120. 120.

Yes. Very impressive makeup job. But how nice that you got to meet a hero. And it wasn't disillusioning or disappointing. I mean, quite the opposite. Oh, yeah. He gave of himself. He gave of himself a lot.

And the unfortunate thing with this trip that, like I said, I didn't want to go on to New York, it was the first thing I think of the first day is when I went to Dick Smith's house. I had to stay in New York for two weeks with this notepad full of all this information on how to make better stuff. And I just could not wait to get home and put this into practice. That's right. And the very first thing I did, I did this old man mask, which, again, was a lot better than anything I'd done previously to that. He was amazing, and he changed the art of makeup.

I mean, because if there wasn't Dick Smith, there wouldn't be a Rick Baker. That's nice of you to say and i i one time had an extensive makeup job done on me and i was like feeling like this is so uncomfortable and so long and that's the modern techniques and i would always think in terms of like oh my god how did it feel on boris karloff and lon cheney Jr.? Didn't Karloff wear Jack Pierce's makeup home? Yeah, that's the story that you read anyways. Yeah, and I believe it too because, you know, the makeup took a long time. And they also worked ridiculously long days.

And it's like, you know, if I have to come back in three hours to sit in the makeup chair for another six hours, you know, I might as well just wear this. for another six hours, you know, I might as well just wear this. You know, I did actually, when I was young, I, there was a, uh, I grew up in a place called Covina, California, which is kind of East of Hollywood, about 40 miles or so. And there was a costume shop nearby. And on Halloween, I, you know, I went to them and I said, I can do makeups, you know, and I was trying to make money. So I did a few people for Halloween and I had a couple of days booked. And one guy came in on a Friday wanting me to make them up like the Wolf Man. But this party, I said, when's your party? And he goes, Saturday. And I went, oh, you know, I don't think this is going to, this is a good idea, you know, for you to wear this a whole day.

I don't think it's going to look very good. And he goes, it's the only guy I could get in, you know? And I said, you know what, I'll come in tomorrow before your party. I can probably give you 10 minutes to do a little bit of a touch-up. He came in after wearing it for a day, and it looked great. And he said he slept with his head between two books on either side of his head so he wouldn't turn over and stuff. So it can be done. But what were you made up for, Gilbert? It was, oh, God, I talked about it on the show.

I was doing a pilot for uh barry levinson and i was supposed to be a middle-aged man in it and and and they between the discussions back and forth between makeup and the producers the makeup wound up looking looking like the end of Dorian Gray. And the thing never aired. But it looked like I was 1,000 with the bald head and all the appliances of the cheeks and neck. And it was one of those horrible things where they would give the cast call and say okay uh cast you can uh you'll be in we need you here at nine o'clock

in the morning and gilbert we need you at three in the morning oh yeah i've done so many 2 a.m calls you know and it's it's yeah it's tough you know i mean i used to say you know what these actors have been such babies about this you know because i would make myself up and go it's, yeah, it's tough. You know, I mean, I used to say, you know what? These actors have been such babies about this, you know, because I would make myself up and go, it's not that bad. But, you know, I usually make myself up once or twice in a row, you know. And when you do 90 days in a row, or, you know, like Jim Carrey did on The Grinch, you know, that is torturous. I mean, the hours, the hours are hard on me, but they're harder on those guys too. And it's hard on your skin.

But like you said, I mean, the stuff, their hours are hard on me, but they're harder than those guys too. And it's hard on your skin. And, and, but like you said, I mean, the stuff that Karloff would had to endure, I mean, collodion, I don't know if you've ever had that, seen that stuff. It's like this liquid plastic. It's very, uh, the solvents in it. I forget what it is, like MEK or something, acetone and all this stuff. And to have that put on your face under your, right under your eyes and all that stuff, it was torturous. I mean, it is, it is a tough thing. stuff, and to have that put on your face right under your eyes and all that stuff, it was torturous. I mean, it is a tough thing. And I've learned now why actors do complain about the process. Well, the Carrie story's in the book. Did you get to that part of the book?

Well, I remember he told, at one point, he told the director to put on the Grinch outfit. He didn't tell him. Ron Howard thought this might calm Jim down. If I went, I'll wear it so I can live what you're living through. But he did it for one day. Wasn't the studio just pushing back and saying to you, just paint him green? Well, that's what they wanted.

I mean, I've said this in the book now, so I can say this, but I figure part of my job is to, I want to do the best work I can possibly do. And a lot of times they don't allow me to do that. And I fight for what I think is right. That comes across in the book. Yeah. More than once. I know. Once I read it, I went, God, what an asshole this guy is. But again, it's my work. It's my name on there, you know, and they don't, they won't put on the credit, you know, makeup by Rick Baker, but we didn't let him do it right.

We wanted him to paint Jim Carrey green. You know, I mean, I personally kept saying, you know, it's not how the green Jim Carrey stole Christmas. It's how the Grinch stole Christmas. I think people want to see a Grinch, you know, it's not how the green Jim Carrey stole Christmas. It's how the Grinch stole Christmas. I think people want to see a Grinch, you know. And that was something I think that was interesting in the book. Jonathan Rensselaer, who wrote it, based on interviews of me and research that he did of articles at the time and people who work for me, you know, talked about, he has like reviews of films. I think there was a Roger Ebert film,

a review talking about the Grinch, and he goes, what a mistake. Who the hell wants to see, I want to see Jim Carrey. I don't want to see this green monster. And I went, oh, maybe I was wrong,

but I personally think I was right. Oh, you're right, and he comes through it. He comes through the makeup. Yeah, well, I knew he would. I was really excited. I was excited that it was Jim because I make faces in the mirror all the time when I wear makeups and do stuff,

and I'm pretty good at it, you know? And I learned a lot from watching Lon Chaney make faces, you know, but Jim Carrey, you know, can make faces like nobody else, you know? So I was really excited. That movie did lead to you meeting the queen. It did, yeah. How weird is that?

Another perk. And that's something that's crazy about this business you know i mean i've met the queen of england you know i've been to places crazy you know i was in africa living in a tent you know and being with gorillas and and you know and you it's kind of like time traveling as well i mean like when you did the wolfman and i'm like in england and in in in late 1800s you, and you really feel like you're there. All these people are dressed like that, you know, horse and buggies going by. And it's an amazing business that I complain too much about, you know.

I mean, I feel so blessed that I was able to make my hobby, you know, my profession. And then people give me awards and I get free food and I get to have all these experiences that normal people don't get to do and I should stop complaining. And as a fellow monster kid, I imagine you were putting together the Aurora monster models. One of the biggest regrets in my life is when I got married. I was married once before Sylvia and I gave away my Aurora kits. Oh. I'm getting married. I don't, you know,

I shouldn't have these anymore. And I've regretted it ever since. And I've since actually traded somebody. I had a cast of Al Lewis as Grandpa Munster. Bless your heart. Yeah. I dug out of the trash

when I was at Universal. I was in a dumpster. There was somebody that was talking to me about a project who I knew was a big Monsters fan. He had an Aurora model kit in his office. I love those Aurora kits. He said, I have a number of them. I said, I'll trade you a Grandpa Monster.

All of his kits were in the original boxes with the original cellophane on it, you know. And it was like, oh, man, I wanted to build them, but now I feel kind of guilty because, you know, they're supposed to be more valuable like this, you know. I'm going to build them still. Yeah, you should. Yeah, you know. And I have built a couple of the reissue ones, you know. But, you know, I had customized mine. I had the Frankenstein. And I vividly remember the day.

I mean, my parents, I grew up very lower middle class. My parents didn't have very much money. I think those kits were a dollar, actually. But I was in my bedroom one day with the door closed, and my dad knocks on the door. And he walks in with this box with a James Bond artwork of the monster on it, of that Frankenstein kit. And I was, what's this? He goes, I saw this, and I just knew that I should buy it for you.

Oh, nice. And I'm sure he went without his lunch. He probably didn't. That's sweet. Didn't your dad sell them in the hardware store, those models? My dad had one. There was a law passed because kids were snorting glue, sniffing glue. Right.

And there was a law passed that in order to buy glue, you'd have to be buying a model with it. That was the law. And my father had this one model kit of a plane that he sold like about 20 times because they would buy it and toss it out in the garbage just so they could run off. Get the glue. Yeah. Now. They're probably all dead now, too. Yes.

Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah. Did you have the Kong? Did you have the Universal monsters and the King Kong and the Godzilla? Oh, I had all of them. And I had the ones with the monsters in the cars and, you know, Frankenstein's Fliver or whatever. Sure, sure.

And Mummy Mobile. Yeah, the later ones glowed in the dark. And, and. Which I didn't like. I didn't either. Yeah, it was a gimmick. I remember, you know, you talk about your father giving you that monster model. I still remember part of my childhood is because I was in love with those models.

And my mother came home one day, and I guess they were on sale. You got them together, and it was The Bride of Frankenstein and The Witch. And, yeah, she gave me those. It was a double monster. You didn't get The Prisoner? Wasn't there a Prisoner? Yes, I had that one. The Starving Prisoner.

I had that one. The Forgotten Prisoner. The Forgotten Prisoner. Yeah, Rick's eyes are lighting up. And there was The Customizer. Oh, yeah. You get extra bats and extra rats and things like that. Yes, and snakes and things.

Sylvia's laughing at us. Did you have the guillotine? Did you have the guillotine model? Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I had that one too. Yeah, I remember I had a, I've got a magazine called Cracked once. It was kind of like a magazine.

Oh, sure. Oh, yes. And they had ads in the back and it was like fake ads and it was like, you know, an iron lung and one of them was a guillotine

and I thought it was real and I was like, I want to get this, you know, because I had that model. You're talking to a guy who wrote for Cracked magazine, pal.

No way. Yes. And mad. Wow. And another life. We have to talk about gorillas. Oh, my God. My favorite bit in the book is when it says,

Rick entered his gorilla period. That was when a gorilla starts bleeding. It was Picasso-esque. Well, I mean, that came about, you know, I mean, I liked fooling people with makeup. I wanted them to believe what I was doing was real. And, I mean, the story I always tell is that, you know, a 10-year-old Frankenstein didn't fool anybody. You know, it was like, isn't that cute? Ricky looks like

Frankenstein. And it's like, you know, you're supposed to run in terror when you see me not say, isn't it cute? You know? So I went through a, uh, fortunately kind of a short lived blood and guts period. I mean, when the first time I made a gash, I put a gash on my hand and showed my mom, she freaked out and it was like, okay, now I'm getting somewhere. This is a real reaction, you know. So I went through, you know, every kid in the neighborhood doing horrible wounds and injuries on them and going home and having them go home scared to death. And I was eventually not allowed to play with any of these kids anymore, you know.

So I wanted to find something that was real, that people would believe that was monstrous. And I had the misconception about gorillas that Hollywood created, you know, with King Kong and every other movie that a gorilla's in, you know, and they're actually quite passive amazing animals. So, I mean, I started studying ape suits, you know, Charlie Gamora was the best at the ape suits and also, you know, going to the zoo and looking at, you know, National Geographic and, you know, I just thought this is something, I think I can do this. and also going to the zoo and looking at National Geographic.

I just thought, this is something. I think I can do this. I think I can do this with my makeup skills and do something that's better than what's been done before. And I set on that mission to do that. And I got over it eventually when I did Gorillas in Mist and had my suits intercut with the real animals, and nobody knew that they were there. That's brilliant.

Did you put... I remember when I was a kid, if it was a low-budget comedy where it would take place, if it was a horror spoof, it always, you knew it was a low-budget like Three Stooges or Bowery Boys that they'd throw in a guy in a correlation. And it was always one of three guys, right? It was Charlie. Oh, it was mostly Crash Corrigan. Crash Corrigan. And later Bob.

And actually, I mean, you know, Crash, there's some neat things about Crash's suit. It's not realistic, you know, but he did some neat things with the body and stuff like that, you know. But, you know, George Barrows was the other one that did a lot of stuff. They used his suit in Conga, and he was in the Beverly Hillbillies. And the closest thing to a whole gorilla suit I did

was based on George Barrows' Beverly Hillbillies character because they put him in a pair of overalls, and I didn't have enough money to build a whole suit. But I thought if I have a pair of overalls, then I don't have to have all that fur. So I made a head and some arms and some padding and had overalls and, and that's actually, I mean, you, you mentioned the thing with two heads that you want to talk about.

Yeah. Yeah. The two headed gorilla. Yeah. This is a good segue because I had a picture of my gorilla suit. I carefully framed it. So I held my hands up and so it hid the fact that I had overalls on and didn't really have a chest.

I carried that picture in my wallet. I did this film in South America, which I got actually from working on Bone. Somebody that I made up on Bone was a documentary filmmaker that was going to try to make a feature in South America. He said, do you know anybody that can make a head

that looks like somebody that I'm going to fill with meat and have piranhas eat it? So I said, I can do that. So I ended up doing this film in South America and making this head. And the stunt coordinator on this film, his name was Paul Knuckles. I showed him a picture of my gorilla suit, which again was, you know, a head and some hands. And he became the stunt coordinator on the thing with two heads. And they had to find this gorilla actor to play this movie.

And he goes, I know somebody. So they called me in. So I brought that same picture and I actually brought the head with me. And they said, well, the problem is we'd start filming in two weeks. And is that enough time for you to make another head? And I went, oh, sure, you know.

And they had like, I think, $500 or something. So I didn't tell them I really didn't have a suit. So I had two weeks and $500 to make a two-headed gorilla suit by myself. And that's why it looks like it does. And that's the one. With Ray Moland. And Bruce, no, was the thing with. The thing with two heads is Ray Moland and Bruce no was the thing the thing with two heads

is Ray Moland and Rosie Greer and then the incredible two headed transplant that came first that was Bruce Stern right

was it Bruce Stern yes I think so yeah yes and we've had him on the podcast speaking of

another thing I don't know if you're totally embarrassed about, and if not, you should be. Octoman. Oh, Octoman. Well, you know, you got to start somewhere. It was my first film. student and I had a few weeks and very little money to make this suit that was designed by already by somebody else, uh, and do the best job I could. I mean, you know, yes, the suit isn't

great, but it's a hell of a lot better than the movie. The pictures in the book are great. The Octoman pictures in the book. Well, you know, we had to come up with a way to do this. You know, it hadn't been done this way before. You know, we didn't have a big, you know, foam rubber, you have to bake in an oven and it takes like, you know, and we to come up with a way to do this. You know, it hadn't been done this way before. You know, we didn't have a big, you know, foam rubber you have to bake in an oven. Sure. And it takes like, you know, and we didn't have a giant oven to put a suit in. And we figured out a process that, you know, Doug Beswick, a friend of mine that I met at Cloakies when my very first job, the place that made Gumby and Davey and Goliath. And Doug and I did this film together because Doug actually had a workshop. I worked out of my bedroom at my parents' house

and I did Jane Pittman out of my bedroom at my parents' house. I did a lot of things out of there but the Octoman was just too big to fit in my small little bedroom. So Doug had a shop and we did the suit together in very little time. The movie that was shot in 10 days

in Bronson Canyon in Griffith, you know, Griffith park. And we actually lost a day because of an accident. And the director, Harry Essex, who was one of the writers of the creature in the black lagoon came from outer space, which this was basically those two scripts, you know,

morphed together with ecology thrown in, you know, and, but he would literally tear pages out of the script. We don't need this. We don't need this. And just, you know,

throw them in the air and watch them blow through Bronson Canyon. And I thought, oh, boy, this is going to be a real disaster. And it was. For dining out on these stories all these years later, Rick, don't you want your first movie to be a terrible turkey like Octoman? Oh, yeah. I mean, like I said, you've got to start somewhere. And we did the best we could under the circumstances.

And that's the thing that people don't realize. Of course. somewhere, you know, and we did the best we could under the circumstances. And that's the thing that people don't realize, you know, I mean, you were given, I mean, I have to do things that never had been done before on a schedule and a budget that I'm usually given, you know, and I, you know, I used to have to beg people to let me do things. It was like, you know, let me put a scar on this guy, you know, well, you know, we don't have time, you know, let me put a mustache on him, you know, I just want to do something, you know. And after American Werewolf came out, they thought we could do anything, you know. And that's like when I got, I think the film I did right after American Werewolf was Videodrome, David Cronenberg's crazy film. And there was stuff in there that I said, I have no idea how I'm going to do this.

I don't even know if I can do some of this. If I can't do it, I will suggest alternate things. And David was a very great collaborator. There were a few things I just said, I can't do it quite like this, but I can do this. And we did some pretty crazy stuff. Great effects on that movie. That was the movie where they took VHS tapes

and inserted them in their bodies. Yes, among other things. That's a wild movie. I mean, we're not talking about sticking them up the rear end. No. No. He actually, you know, James Woods, you know, developed this kind of vagina-like thing on his abdomen

that he ends up sticking this gun into. He's like scratching it with his gun and then eventually sinks all the way into his stomach. And then he stands up off the couch with his arm stuck in his stomach and then he pulls his hand out and the vagina thing is gone and so is the gun. Cronenberg writes some really weird shit. And the script was amazing. I mean, the script, I've read a number of Cronenberg scripts and you can't make the movies. And he even knows that.

He goes, I just write it what I would really like to see, but then we have to make it real at some point. That's fascinating. That was a great script, actually. And to brag about my own special effects, I, as a kid, used to make paper mache hand puppets. I never knew that. Yeah. puppets i never knew that yeah and i once did one what i did a production of dracula with one of my mother's black kerchiefs as a cape and i broke an ice cream stick in half and one of them i painted red so one character goes to dr Dracula with the unpainted stick

and then pulls out this stick that has the red paint on it that's clever filmmaking and I did a production of Jekyll and Hyde where I put an Alka-Seltzer

in a little cap when the potion is bubbling over. He was the William Tuttle of Coney Island. Yeah. All of us monster kids did stuff like that, you know, and you kind of had to. Speaking of papier-mâché, I actually, in the book, towards the end, there's this papier-mâché Nosferatu that I made in my retirement. Because when I worked at

Dick Smith's house in The Exorcist, he had a book, I think it was called Masks and How to Make Them. And there was this guy that wrote this book, I think in the 40s, that did this paper mache masks that I thought were incredible. I couldn't believe they were paper mache. And when Dick retired, I bought the book from him. And it was something I had on my list of things I want to do before I die is make a paper mache mask. So one of the first things I did during my retirement was make this paper mache Nosferatu. And I first started out as a mask and then ended up kind of like a three-quarters bust. I'm kind of torso in a hand.

I mean, somebody on my Instagram, when I posted it, they said, well, that's not really paper mache because you didn't scratch build it. I laminated the paper over a sculpture that I did first, you know, is what this guy did in his book. And he goes, that's not really paper mache. Paper mache is when you actually, you can wad up paper and then you put other paper on top of it and you make it completely like that. So it's like, okay, so I made a hand for this Nosferatu scratch build. And then it was like, okay, look, now shut up. It was actually pretty cool. It was all paper except for the fingernails were like plastic, part of a plastic bottle, plastic water bottle that I cut off.

We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this. Do you laugh sometimes, Rick, looking back at these things? You must have a sense of humor. I mean, specifically the thing with two heads. You're running down a crowded street in a two-headed gorilla suit. That's part bedspread? Yeah. It was bedspread.

A fart-covered bedspread? Yeah. No, I had to. Again, I mean, I had two weeks, and this was like there weren't makeup supply places anywhere, you know. And I would have to drive all over the place to get the things I needed. And I knew that there wasn't a lot of fake furs available at the time. There was a really shiny black that was really crappy, which my first girl was made out of. So my dad, you know, when he decided he wanted

to try to make a living as an artist, used to do these parking lot crafts and art shows. And one was in Melrose Boulevard in La Cienega. And I remember walking by a place that had some fake fur bedspreads. So I drove there and they had this bedspread that wasn't just jet black. And I thought it was cool. I had these longer black hairs and kind of a lighter hair underneath.

And I went, oh, this would be much more real. Turns out that when I put it all together in my two weeks of sewing and molding and casting and stuff, it kind of, when it wrinkled up, all the black hairs, it looked striped in the end, you know, and I was going, oh my God. But what was cool, it really was guerrilla filmmaking, and they would be, they say, get in this van.

Yeah, it was like, get in this van. We're going to drive through Hollywood. We're going to find a street that looks good. We're going to let you off on one of the streets. We're going to drive down the street with the cameraman. The cameraman's going to get out, set the camera up. Somebody's going to let you off on one of the street we're going to drive down the street the cameraman's going to get out set the camera up somebody's going to shout and you run down the street uh you know like a gorilla and then we'll hop in the van we'll drive to some other street you know and so we did you know again no no permits you know and

but i also remember doing a scene where i'm in a cage before uh you know the the two-headed transplant thing happens and rainbalan looking at me and going, why the hell would anybody want to do this? You know, in a suit like this. And I felt like saying, yeah, what's it feel like to have your film career and end up in a movie called The Thing with Two Heads? And I remember one of the special effects in that movie was just Ray Milan resting his head on Rosie Greer's shoulder. Yeah, well, fortunately, Rosie Greer was pretty big, so you could kind of hide behind him.

But yeah, there's a lot of shots of them with bandages wrapped around their neck, and he's just standing behind them. And the head, I didn't actually make the fake heads for that. That was Charlie Schramm who was uh worked at mgm under william toddle for many years uh and tom burman made the likeness heads of rosie guerrero and uh and ray milan i just made the the two-headed gorilla and i i wants to brag about myself but this i did fairly just about three four years ago i did a i made a one minute thing on the internet called the scary monster where i finally decided taking shit around the house and did a transformation scene with filming it with my phone and on youtube or something yeah i I'll send you one. It would be an honor.

It would be an honor to send it to you. You've got balls to show that to Rick Baker. Yeah, that's like sending Mozart something. I made a tune with a garbage can. Rick, on the subject of gorillas, You know, I made a tune with a garbage can. Rick, on the subject of gorillas, did you once heckle a professor dressed as a chimp? Yes. I mean, who hasn't?

As you do when you're young. I mean, I had a fairly normal childhood. I to a junior local junior college to basically to stay out of vietnam and uh i was an art major though it wasn't really an art school and i i wanted to do realistic work i was doing realistic paintings and realistic sculptures and was getting in trouble for it you know what was really popular at the time were hard edge paintings where you with masking tape you'd paint one side of the canvas red and then you'd mask it off and then paint the other side blue you know and being the opinionated uh guy that i am and with not having much of a filter i would say i'm sorry but i don't consider this art you know i mean i would love for this guy to paint my house because that's a really

nice straight line you know but i want to paint this kind this is the kind of stuff i want to do and they'd give me bad grades grades for doing stuff. And one of the things I did is I did a full-size gorilla, like a fiberglass with bronze powder in it, gorilla sculpture. And I thought for sure this was going to get picked in this art show. And the school had an art gallery that this guy come in to curate the show.

And he didn't pick my gorilla sculpture and it kind of pissed me off. So he had a a meeting where he talked about what he chose and why he chose it so i decided to go wearing a chimp mask and i just heckled him the whole time i i i i was thinking of it more like performance art you know um but that's hilarious i you know i also wore wore my gorilla suit with the overalls to school. There's a rumor you swung from some goalposts? Well, I didn't really swing from goalposts.

Oh, okay. But it was actually, I had an anthropology class, and I told the teacher that I had a gorilla suit. So there was a storage room next to my classroom. And he said he was going to, he wanted me to wear the suit to school. And he said, I would do, I'm going to talk about gorillas and how they have a certain vocalization. And then he says, if there's a gorilla within a mile and hears this, they'll come, you know? So I, I wasn't in class that day. I was hiding in the room in my gorilla suit. And when he did the vocalization, I kicked the door in and ran around. And then I spent the vocalization, I kicked the door in and ran around.

And then I spent the rest of the day just running around in a gorilla suit. And there'd be classrooms that sloped up, and you would have the people, and the professor's back would be to the door. So I'd walk by in the doorway, and the students would look and point, and then I'd run. So when the professor turned around, there'd be nothing there. And then people would say, no, there was a gorilla in the doorway. Was that Jumbo? That was Jumbo.

Jumbo, okay. Yeah, you actually read the book. Oh, yeah. Cover to cover. And aside from monster makeups, those costumes, gorillas or Planet of the Apes, or they had this movie, I think it was Prehistoric Planet, where it was people in dinosaur suits.

And I constantly heard stories about people would faint in those suits. Yeah, well, Bob Burns talks about, because he met Ellis Berman, who did, what was it, Unknown Island, I think? Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. With these Tyrannosaurus suits, and they were filming in the desert. That was it, yes. And Bob went out to watch, and he said they would just fall over, you know? Because it's tough.

I mean, it turns out, it seems like every time I got a gig to wear a gorilla suit, it was like the hottest time of the year, you know. And, you know, when I did the Dino DeLorenzo's King Kong, played King Kong, it was all blue screen and it was photochemical processing. And so you needed a lot of light, which meant a lot of heat. And the whole crew, and it was during the summer and it was really hot. And the whole crew's in like shorts and no shirts or t-shirts. really hot and the whole crew's in like shorts and no shirts or t-shirts and i've got a you know a 50 pound suit made out of foam rubber and bear hide that i would put on in the morning wear the entire day and except i take it off at lunch and i could literally i could fill up a styrofoam cup of water uh with my sweat from my feet when at the end of the day i would take off my feet and dump it out and all that much sweat you And I heard like with the Frankenstein movies,

by the middle of the day, when the actors would turn their heads, you could hear sweat splashing around. Oh yeah, I know it's tough. And also things would come off. I mean, in the old days, we didn't have the adhesives we have now. We had a spirit gum, like I said before,

and that would only last for so long. I mean, when I did the autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman, we filmed in Louisiana and Mississippi in the summer. It's really hot and humid. And at the end of the day, the makeup was just barely hanging on. And it's always when they do the most extreme close-up. And I'm convinced there's a book somewhere that says,

you know, we want to be a director, you do the most extreme close-up at the very last shot of the day but when it's a makeup it looks the best when it's you know fresh out of the makeup trailer you know and especially in louisiana in that kind of heat and it's tough i mean the problem now is the heaths are so strong you know it was much easier to remove a makeup in the old spirit gum days because like i said it was basically falling off. You can't just peel a face off now. It pulls skin off with it. You have to carefully use solvents to remove the adhesive. And it's a tedious, long process that's not fun for the makeup artist

and less fun for the actor. And I remember when I was doing the extensive makeup, doing the extensive makeup uh they would like put you know the uh acetone like and start putting uh you know tiny drops here and there and it would burn your skin and then the makeup artist used to say to me after he put like a ton of acetone on it, he said, okay, now you could do your Adrian messenger because there was that movie where they pull the makeup off in a second. And I used to do that, but it's, it's totally unlike that or, or a mission impossible where it goes on and off in a second.

Oh, no, that used to piss me off so much, you know, because people would ask me to do that. You know, they go, well, why don't you do, you know, I say it's going to take three hours. They go, why don't you do it like Mission Impossible, where you can just put it on and take it off in a second? You know, and you go, yeah. I mean, I remember one that had, what was his name?

Will Gear, I think it was. He's like in a medical thing, and they melt some rubber gloves in a sterilizer, and then he makes a mask out of it, and then puts it on and walks out. But they don't explain how he's six inches taller and has different color eyes. And I was called about a commercial once where it was for the fireman's fund, and it was like, you don't have to be a fireman to be in the fireman's fund and then the person pulls out they would look like a fireman they're supposed to peel that face off and then they're like an old lady and then that

old lady peels the face off and then you're a black guy and you know you know it's all these different people and they wanted me to do it all with makeup all on the same person wow and i said you can't do that their head would be four feet wide. It's an added process, you know. And they go, well, they do it on Mission Impossible.

And I go, it's fake, you know. It's like the two actors. It's like, you know, not the way it really works, you know, but I wish it did. The suffering you did

in King Kong is you could fill a book. I mean, that's one of the most interesting parts because you're talking about wearing the pain of being

locked, trapped in a suit or in a Frankenstein suit. I mean, you were afraid that you were going to vomit and it was going to come out of the eyes of the suit god your biggest fear was getting sick in the suit but i mean people have to well we're going to push the book too but people have to read that section of the book because that's you're still scarred you're still your eyes are still scarred from the contact lenses is that true yeah well they were hard it's thorough contacts you know they were rigid full eye contacts that i. You know, they were rigid, full eye contacts that I,

you know, they said you're supposed to wear them for 20 minutes and I would wear them. I'd put them in the morning, take them off at lunch. I'd put them back in and wear them until the end of the day. And then I'd drive home from MGM

to where I lived in North Hollywood in a complete fog. My eyes were totally fogged over. I'm thankful I didn't get in a horrible accident doing that. But yeah, it was tough going. I also got hit by a, totally fogged over i'm thankful i didn't get in a horrible accident doing that you know but but yeah it was it was tough going i also got hit by a uh we were on a stage uh at mgm it was a really tall stage uh the where the um super tanker was uh because it was uh in the scene where the

jessica falls in the in the super tanker with with king kong but it was with the radio-controlled helicopters being hung from the permanents up there uh up in the permanent beams up in the super tanker with, with King Kong, but it was with the radio controlled helicopters being hung from the permanence up there, uh, up in the permanent beams up in this stage. And I'm, you know, I'm acting in my ape suit.

I can't really see shit in there, you know, and all of a sudden I get hit with something really heavy on my shoulder and like knocks me at the ground. And I thought the helicopter fell, but it turned out it was a, a two by four that one of the grips put across the two permanent beams up there just temporarily and left it. And the vibrations from the helicopters flying around knocked it off.

And fortunately, I had an ape suit on. But apparently, it fractured my collarbone, which I didn't realize at the time. But I had issues with it later. And I went and looked. And the guy said, when did you break your collarbone? And I figured that must have been it. But I also really kind of hurt my hand smashing on the gate. And most of that sequence, I mean, the movie,

the publicity was about a 40-foot robot. But it's in six shots in the movie and not even six seconds of the movie, I think. I was going to say the emotional scarring of King Kong. The psychological scars of King Kong are greater than the before. What I was going to say, I also said, you know, I think this is going to be too hard for me to do the entire movie. I want

to get another person that's my size that we can do like tag team gorilla stuff. So we got a guy named Bill Shepard who was basically my size and we built a suit for him as well. But John Gillerman says he could tell the difference, and he wanted me to do, pretty much did it all.

Because I heard my hand pounding on the gate, Shepard did the pounding on the gate and falling into the pit. And he does some of the climbing of the World Trade Center, but the rest of it is me, other than the six seconds of the 40-foot robot that basically didn't work. Carlo, yeah.

And you did two Eddie Murphy films where you did a room full of countless characters. One was the Klumps, you know, the nutty professor, which was an entire family of Eddie Murphy's, and then a barbershop full of Eddie Murphy's and Coming to America. Yeah, that was fun. I mean, Coming to America was the first one I did with Eddie, and this was when Eddie was really hot and very popular and very busy and wasn't available for testing. And I like to test the makeups, try them out before the day. And I said, you know, in fact, yesterday I made myself, I tested my Halloween makeup on myself yesterday. I think I still have some remains of it on my face today. But I said, you know, to make Eddie Murphy an old white Jewish guy, that's a hard makeup job.

Didn't he come to you and say, make me a Jew? Not quite like that. No, it was John Landis, you know, says it was, you know, payback for all the Jewish minstrel. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good point. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, when he said to me, you know, I want to make Eddie, you know, he called, I was in England with Sylvia.

I forgot what I was doing. I think I was finishing Gorillaz the Mist or something. And, you know, he called me and said, I wanted this movie. Eddie Murphy is going to play a bunch of characters. One of them is an old Jewish man. And I said, like Sammy Davis Jr., are you Jewish? No, no, no, a Jew, a real Jew, you know. And he was going, you you know don't give him

a big nose you know and and it's like well you know i'll do what i can but that was one of the makeups i insisted on testing because i said you know it's a really hard makeup so it was something like 15 separate pieces that are glued on his face and i got him out to do the test i glued the stuff on i didn't glue the back of his neck on i I didn't glue his hands on. I wasn't worried about that. And Eddie, you know, was sitting in the makeup chair, again, like I said, looking out of his eyes and seeing this old Jewish man looking back at him. And he just said, Rick, I don't feel that I'm doing your makeup justice. I do a stereotype Jewish man. I want to improvise a scene where I do something more serious. So he brought one of his crew in, you know, and he improvised this really serious scene

about this old Jewish man who was beaten up by some black guys, but real serious acting. And I was like, this guy's good, you know. And what I really liked with Eddie, when I put, you know, a Caucasian-colored cheek on him, it's just this weird white patch on his dark skin, you know. But he would look at it in the mirror and move it around and see what it took to move it.

And I went, oh, this is a good sign. He's going to make this makeup work, you know. A lot of actors, as soon as you cover them up with something, it's like, I can't move. Like, no, you can move. You just need to practice, you know. Or you get a little thin veneer of some teeth. And it's like, I can't talk with these teeth. And yes, you can. You know. You just need to practice. You know, it's like, or you get, you know, a little thin veneer of some teeth. And it's like, I can't talk with these teeth.

And yes, you can. You know, you just need to practice. And, you know, Eddie wasn't like that at all. He right away looked at what it did and he had fun with the makeup. And he liked looking like somebody else. And that's like a makeup artist's dream, you know, to be able to do, have the actor really appreciate what you're doing and have fun with it. And, you know, he said, I want to go to the mall.

I want to go to the mall and buy stuff, you know. And I was going, yeah, I just don't think they're going to take your credit card, you know, because it wouldn't have like Eddie Murphy's picture on it. Or, you know, his driver's license had his picture and he'd be this old Jewish man, you know. You know what's funny is that when I did the makeup, the extensive makeup, the best compliment, one of the best compliments I ever got from the makeup man was saying, you know, you made the makeup come to life. And he said, a lot of actors just wear it as a mask. That's interesting. Yeah, it's, I mean, you have to embrace it and work with it, you know, and Eddie did that, yeah. Now, here's something I want to get straight. I, for years, and I think with Lon Chaney Sr., there was a lot of bullshit in the, well, one that he never used, the stuntman, which was bullshit.

Well, one, that he never used the stuntman, which was bullshit. But they said that he used a fish hook. Yeah, no, it's not. They also said infamous monsters. Yes. When he had a blind eye, they said he put collodion in his eye. Yes. As a kid, I knew that he couldn't do that because it wouldn't make you blind if you did. I thought, this is horrible that some kids are going to try this.

But, yeah, I also heard he put poker chips in his cheeks to make his cheeks big. I'm assuming it was silk organza glued to the tip of his nose and then pulled up and glued. Because you see all the way up central, all the way up his forehead, there's a kind of a line that goes up. I think it's glued all the way up to here. But he did do some torturous things. I mean, there were hooks on the London after midnight teeth that hold his mouth in that, in that crazy smile. Yeah. I mean, they weren't really hooked. I mean, there were pieces of metal that came out, they weren't stuck into his skin, but they held his mouth in a smile like that. And also London after midnight, he had these almost like

monocle like wires around his eyes that held his held his eyelids pulled down. Because I always thought, how do you do that? Because I glued my eyelids down, but when you make that smiley face, your cheeks go up and it makes your eyelids go up. And he actually had these metal pieces right around his eye. When you have a nice clear picture of it, you can see them. You know, one thing I

want to ask you, Rick, how did it feel to get your Oscar handed to you by Vincent Price of all people? Wow. Yeah, Vincent Price and Kim Hunter. And Kim Hunter of Planet of the Apes. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, I mean, how did it feel to get an Oscar? I mean, you know, for a monster movie.

Sure, sure. You know, when I got nominated, I couldn't believe it, and I thought for sure, well, there's no way they're going to give it to American Werewolf that's got, you know, gory stuff in it and sex and violence and all this and uh though it is a quite a great film and um but I really didn't expect to win uh I mean I did prepare a speech just in case because I didn't want to make an idiot of myself for this first time ever that they had this

category but when you know when I saw Vincent Price up there and Kim Hunter I thought how cool and he was great I mean I talked right away you know Kim Hunter, I thought, how cool. And he was great. I mean, I talked right away. As soon as I thought, you get the Oscar and you sit back down. And I didn't realize you had to go through the whole gauntlet of, I mean, whatever you call it, of the press. All the people in the press that interview you. And you don't go back to your seat for like an hour. But I got to hang out with Vincent Price and Kim Hunter. so first thing i started asking him about house of wax you know

oh great house of wax you know and what i thought was great is he actually remembered the name and the makeup people because a lot of guys wow you know and the guy who actually did that makeup george bow was a guy that i would buy rubber from he invented he was one of the inventors of foam rubber, specifically for makeup purposes. His brother, Gordon, was the head of Warner Brothers' makeup department for many years. He's the guy that got credit, but George was the guy that did the makeup and did the pieces. Vincent remembered him,

and we talked about that stuff a lot. That was very cool. Are you a fan of those Castle movies, too? Like the Tingler and House on Haunted Hill? Oh, yeah. And the Tingler and all that stuff. I mean, I think anybody... I grew up in front of a TV, and those movies were...

I think we all shared those same movies. The movies that aren't necessarily the A-list movies, but they're great. Well, that's what I liked about the book. I mean, you're talking about Frankenstein, but you're also talking about these real low-rent things, the John Agar movies. You're really a man after our own heart. I remember in Laura, someone says to Vincent Price,

do you know a lot about music? And he goes, I don't know a lot about anything, but I know a little about practically everything. The kids love the Vincent Price impression. Practically everything. The kids love the Vincent Price impression. My favorite part of this interview is I keep looking back at your wife. Who's trying to stay awake.

Yeah, and she's got that slightly embarrassed look. Well, you know, she puts up with me, and I got to say, you know, I mean, she's been very patient with, you know, she puts up with me, and I've got to say, you know, I mean, she's been very patient with, you know, she kicks me under the table a lot when I say something that's not appropriate. But, I mean, I actually had no social skills until I met Sylvia. And when we first, she first would take me out to dinner with some friends and stuff, and they would say, you know, does Rick know how to talk? Because he didn't say anything all night. You know, is he all right? I'm going, no, that's just the way he is. The faces she's making, the faces my wife makes. Gilbert's wife is pointing from the next booth, and she's nodding.

So I think she's relating. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's changed my life for the better in so many ways. And I have two amazing daughters that I totally love who are into Halloween. And this is my time of year. And this was kind of the drag about the book coming out now because I'm doing some press. And I'm going, this cuts into my Halloween prep time. I usually start three months before Halloween preparing.

So I started four months before Halloween this year. Well, we have to thank veronica too uh your your daughter for setting this up and for reaching out we'll thank pat and oswald too and there's there's was we won't tell the story now for time but we we were we were pursuing rick and then he found us so we're and the book what can we say? My son, when he was like less than one years old, he saw the Wolfman, the original one with Lon Chaney Jr., my favorite, Lon Chaney Jr. And he came out with his shirt open and with a pen. He made a scribble on his chest and pointed to it because it was supposed to be the sign of the pentagram. The pentagram, I was going to say, yeah.

He's your kid. That's pretty cool. And one time he was sitting also, when he was tiny, he was sitting in a diner with my wife, and he got really quiet, and he leaned into her and said, that man over there looks like Lon Chaney Jr. He's your kid. Yes. Sounds like a good kid. Yes. Your parents played such a role in your early success, Rick. How much did they get to see? How much of your success did they get to see and enjoy?

They got to see a lot, actually. I mean, I felt very fortunate for that. My parents got to go to the Oscars a few times. Oh, how nice. Yeah, and long since passed now. But they got to see me, you know, my career take off and, you know, know that all the stuff that they put up with, you know, I mean, my mom's kitchen oven was the first oven I baked foam rubber in, you know, and my little modest house where I grew up in, you know, the carpeting had Roma Plastilina, which is this clay that I would use, you know, ground into the carpet, you know, a path from my bedroom to the kitchen or to the bathroom, you know, and they eventually end up building a little like a screened-in patio where they wanted to sit in the summer to be bathroom, you know, and they eventually end up building a little like a screened-in patio

where they wanted to sit in the summer to be cool, you know, because we didn't have air conditioning and that became my mold room. I thought, well, that's kind of better to make molds out there than in the kitchen whose sink I clogged up numerous times. And, you know, they put up with a lot and they got to see, you know, they got to see my success. My dad used to carry a briefcase full of pictures of my stuff, you you know and when he'd go on an airplane somewhere he'd just like tap on somebody's shoulder and go do you want to see what my son does so you know they were proud and they got to see that you know they they my success so that was I was happy about that we love doing this show we love the journey and one of the things in the book is that you get to

work on the Mighty Joe Young remake and as I'm reading this i'm thinking that was the movie you tell you were telling your parents quick change the channel because on the million dollar yeah because it's that part of mighty joe young so yeah i mean you're not you're you're you're not so jaded that that stuff isn't lost on you well you know i mean i thought like i said after i did gorillas in mist i i thought okay i can stop now with the gorilla obsession. I've done it. And then when Mighty Joe Young came along, it's like, I have to do this. I mean, it's the other giant ape movie. And I suggested, I said, we have to get Ray Harryhausen, who did the animation, most of the animation in the original Mighty Joe Young stop motion.

We've got to get Ray in a cameo. So Ray and Terry Moore are both in a cameo in the movie. in a cameo. So Ray and Terry Moore are both in a cameo in the movie. And Ray sent me a note praising my Joe and just saying how brilliant he thought I was. Oh, wow. What an honor. Oh, my God. I mean, I can't believe that Ray Harryhausen even knew who I was, you know, let alone, you know, praise my stuff. But I got, I mean, when I was doing The Wolfman, I was in London, I got to visit him numerous times. And it was just so cool that somebody like Ray, you know, existed still, you know, and, and the things that Ray did, you know, by himself in a room in the dark with, you know, a stop motion puppet, you know, and or seven puppets

that he's animating all by himself, you know, on a minuscule budget, you know, and one effect shot in a movie now is more than, you know, a entire Ray Harry has in budget, you know, and one effects shot in a movie now is more than, you know, an entire Ray Harry has in budget, you know, and I said to him, doesn't it kind of piss you off that now people are getting millions of dollars to do, you know, shots that you did for hundreds of dollars, you know, but

he, you know, appreciated that stuff was still being done and effects were happening. He was one of a kind. And Jason and the Ark and Hodge, where there's an army of skeletons and effects are happening. He was one of a kind. And Jason and the Ark of the Lost, where there's an army of skeletons, is insane the amount of... Well, I mean, people, you know, if you've never done stop motion, you can't appreciate it.

You know, I mean, my wife says, you know, I don't totally understand it like you do, but, you know, I know what you mean when you appreciate it so. And, I mean, to move a character a frame at a time, and when Ray was doing it, now there's frame capture things where you can actually play it back

and watch it as you're doing it, and you could remove frames and do things like that. Ray, you wouldn't see the sequence until he got the dailies back, and if there was something wrong with it, you start all over again. And 24 frames a second, 24 different moves for one second of film. When you're doing seven things at once,

seven skeletons you're animating, unbelievable. We're going to let you and Sylvia get out of here. I've got one question for you. Especially Sylvia. We should buy Sylvia dinner. She doesn't want to be here. I have one question for you from a fellow Oscar winner. Michael Giacchino, the composer,

wants to know how involved was Rick in choosing angles and lighting to pull off the transformation scene in American Werewolf? John and I storyboarded the whole sequence. John was the one who really chose the angles though. I mean, it was really, I mean, I, first of all, you can't tell John Lentz how to do anything. I mean, he's, he, he knows how to do it all. He really does know how to do it all. And he

planned that sequence out and he said, I want to shoot it in post-production after we wrap the movie so that you could spend however many hours it takes to do a makeup and not have an expensive crew standing around waiting you know so that the set was pre-lit so so after we had the wrap party then we started the transformation sequence and you know so i could spend there was one makeup when david stretched out on the floor i think it was 10 hours of makeup time wow and it was probably a half an hour shooting time, you know, and then our day was over, basically, you know. But yeah, John and I storyboarded it

and it was planned and that's what I liked about working with John. You know what you're going to do. You know what's going to happen that day. Not every director's like that, you know.

And we filmed in Piccadilly Circus a bus crash, you know, with a werewolf running around, all kinds of chaos. And I think it was like two hours we had to do it in

to get in and out, you know, clean up the mess. And he did it, you know, clever planning. And he's a brilliant filmmaker. And may I say, if it wasn't for John Landis, you and Sylvia may not have met. That's true. And I mean, my career, I mean, you know, starting from Schlock.

They met on Into the Night, John's movie. And Sylvia's back there cursing John Lennon. I could have had a real life instead of living with this freak that has monsters in the house. We got to thank Rick's team, too. How does Chris say his last name? Chris at Cameron Books? You got me. Chris Gruner or Chris Gruner?

Something like that, yeah. Chris, thank you to Chris for sending the books. Thank that I think it's Gruner Chris thank you to Chris for sending the books thank you again for Veronica for hooking us up with you the book is incredible we're going to just

push it to our listeners it's breathtaking it is ridiculous yeah I mean it's a visual guide to special effects filmmaking of the half a century

great photos the photos and your drawings and your paintings are in there I mean it's just a feast and you'll need another apartment to fit the book. Yeah, if you have a studio. You have to reinforce your floor in your bookshelves. Yeah, no, the Cameron Publishing who did it, I thought did a great job. And Ian Morris who did

the layout did a great job. And I'm really pleased with the book. And it's a weird thing to see your life in 17 pounds of book i kind of sort of 760 pages or something i i love yeah i didn't write it down but what what a career yeah and if you're interested in movie making if you're interested not just special effects movie making but if you're interested in filmmaking it's a it's a must own yeah even even i bother to read it. We've done almost 300 of these, Rick. Oh, my. It's worth it to read the book. I go on not knowing how to pronounce the guest's name.

What a perfect Halloween episode. Oh, my God. And I can talk to a fellow monster freak all day. I can never stop. Give our love to Dennis and Bob, won't you? I will. I will. And thank you guys for having me on the show and for all the great stuff you said about the book.

I really appreciate it. Oh, it's a masterwork. We're going to push some books. You'll see. And so this, our special Halloween episode of Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast with my co-host Frank Santopadre. Our special guest was the creator

of Octoman. That's what it's called. I was going to say in my tombstone. Rick, tell the truth. Are you and Sylvia going to run to YouTube now to see Gilbert's short? Well, he said he'd send it to me, so I'll pick him up. Happy Halloween. Thank you, guys.

Thanks so much. My pleasure. Blue moon, you saw me standing alone Without a dream in my heart Without a love of my own Blue moon, you just woke up Without a love of my own Blue Moon You knew just what I was there for You heard me sing a prayer for Someone I really care for

And then suddenly Forbid Before me And then they suddenly appeared before me, the moon is there to go Oh, blue moon Now I'm no longer alone Without a dream in my heart Without a love of my own Oh, blue moon I've got a love of my own Thank you. Moo, moo. Greg Pair and John Bradley Seals. Special audio contributions by John Beach.

Special thanks to John Fodiatis, John Murray and Paul Rayburn.