Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - The History of Drag with Frank DeCaro Encore

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

To celebrate National Book Month and the recent publication of his new book, "Disco: Music, Movies and Mania Under the Mirror Ball," GGACP presents this ENCORE of a 2019 interview with comedian and author Frank DeCaro. In this episode, Frank takes Gil and Frank through the history of drag performers and performances and discusses his book, "Drag: Combing Through the Big Wigs of Show Business." Also in this episode: Tommy Velour! "Jethrine" Bodine! The artistry of Charles Pierce! The other side of Flip Wilson! Uncle Miltie's "meaty tuck"! And Herman Munster becomes a cocktail waitress! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, I'm Gilbert Gottfried and I'm here with my co-host Frank Santopadre and this is Gilbert and Frank's Amazing Colossal Obsessions. Yes. And we have with us today, someone who has a new book out called Drag, combing through the big wigs of show business, Frank Decaro.

Give it up, Frank. Colossal Obsessions. Yeah, you see, you gave him credit of show business Frank Dacaro. Colossal obsessions. Yeah, you see you gave him credit for saying Dacaro off mic. I know. None of that Dacaro shit. Had you guys known each other from the stand-up world? No, but I was there the day that I was the night that you did the aristocrats joke. I was in the room because I was either on the dais for that one not speaking but sitting there

Wow, I was on The Daily Show in those days. Yes. Yeah, that was the you have no roads. Oh my god It was amazing. Yeah, it was it was One of those moments where you're like, I can't believe I was in the room for this Yeah, so knows and I'd never heard that joke. Yeah, you had never heard the aristocrat I don't know the night you were in the room who I waited for the best No one has ever taken the Italian out of the name Santa Padre like you. There is not a... It has an art form.

There is not a whiff of garlic left in that name when you get done with it, Kelvin. I'll tell you. Not a bit. That's hilarious. So I'm gonna say this is a whole book about famous people in drag. In drag, it's true. And if I had known in time, I would have found you as Madeline and put you in there. But I made you a drag moment of the day on the internet. So there you were.

Do you want to explain that? Yeah, a bunch of times when like, Leno would call me for those bits. And then begin- one time I was Queen Elizabeth. Another time I was- They don't have that. Wait, first or second? Which one? The one with the high hairline? I think so. I- I- No, no, the one with the high hairline. I think so I I know no the one The one now yes, okay

And I was who was that one who was married to Charles not not Princess Di The guy the one not a very attractive woman Camilla Parker Yes, yes, I was her on the show Wow I see that I do now I'm sitting across from you and I see that. I do. Now I'm sitting across from you and I think that. When I would run into you downtown I'd see you on the street. I didn't think that. I see Una O'Connor when I look at Gilbert in drag.

Me in drag? I become a far side cartoon. I get the cat glasses and I should have a beehive. I look like a woman from... I was playing an Una O'Connor type on an episode of Saturday Night Live. I was doing an old English woman. You were? Perfect.

Okay, so there are more drag moments in Gilbert's career, Frank, than even we knew about. You see, now you found John Davidson in the book. John Davidson! But we just had here. I know! We talked about that very moment. He was a killer Carol Channing impersonator and he would get him with a hat pin Yeah as as a transvestite is want to do and my wife asked how do you kill someone with a hat pin?

One good shot really right in yeah, you have to do that You hope you don't have you hope that never happens. We plug the book when John was here Thank you, you know, he told he tells the story about shaving his eyebrows ill-advisedly He did that and he also he tells the joke about where he didn't know which bathroom to use. Did he tell that? Yes. Oh, very funny. Which he says Pat McCormick wrote for him.

Oh, I'm sure they did. Yeah. So the book is doing well. It's an Amazon bestseller. It's already in second printing. It is. It went into its second print. It's been number one in its category for like three and a half weeks.

Wonderful. Now I know the three stooges played women a bunch of times. I'll get them soon, I think. I'll have to make drag moments of the day. I do like things like that. This whole book was based on my having to get a picture of Fred Gwyn as Herman Munster in drag in the book. And it's in there. Yes, I remember that episode. Oh, Just Another Pretty Face was the name of it and he was the best. and he gets hit by a bolt of lightning and turns into a cocktail waitress. Was that your... As you do, as one does. That was your first exposure to drag as a kid? Yeah, I was like three years old. Right. And it was on The Monsters, which is either pathetic or good. It's still my favorite show. So, The Monsters is my absolute favorite. And he gets hit. First he's turned into Fred Gwyn without makeup.

And they think it's horrible, so they fix him. And then they hit him with a ball of lightning and he turns into a cocktail waiter. And suddenly he's got the little sausage curls. Who could forget it? It's in the book. And he's Aunt Herman. And I think he's the first trans character on TV. I really do.

Wow. But anyway, yeah, it was a pisser to find that photo. But that was kind of the impetus for this book I think was my needing to get that in there you know so you really didn't set out to do this book it was it was they came to me that's why it's a hit if it was up to me I would have anything that's my idea the three of us think is interesting and that's the end I was showing Gilbert to and we'll get to that because we were talking off mic about Karloff in drag on a famous girl from Uncle. Yes, I remember the mother muffin affair and he's never Revealed to be a drag person. He's a it's a female role and they're like three

You know, it's like you get Boris Karloff Harvey Fierstein Louis Anderson in baskets. That's it Oh, yeah Your whole men playing women in a comedy, that's what you get. So, yeah. So it's still popular in pop culture. Drag? Oh my God, it's never been bigger than now. No, and the person that used to crack me up all the time in drag, and that was Milton

Burrell. He was the first drag superstar of television. Yeah, I mean, it was amazing. And I love that, you know, the drag queens, when when you take they ask you if you have a meaty tuck That means how big I was gonna ask you about that Your schmanz tucker is and and and how big your tuck, you know Like can you stick it in the back up yourself, you know? Anyway, and but so Milton could go around twice would be my guess, you know

Use it as a shoulder pad from behind, I think. I wrote it down. Meaty tuck. Yeah, he has the meatiest tuck in show business. But that was the idea. And it's the same, honestly, it's the same reason. You're better looking than Milton Berle, obviously, but the idea is the same. I don't know if you're better hung, but you're better looking. You get the guy who's the least likely to be wearing women's clothes. That's the Hollywood tradition You go you're gonna play Madeline. You're gonna play Queen Elizabeth You're gonna and you grab someone like you and you say here put the wig on and and that was the Hollywood tradition for sure

For the bulk play, you know laughs. I mean it's Abe Vagoda in a dress on Barney Miller. Remember that one Oh, yes. Yeah, was he was he a decoy was he was yeah, it was a mugging detail Okay, they pulled mugging detail. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and so he did and as you do and he looks like everywhere I know about you, but he looks like every relative I have Like a great neck widow when you put him we all have a pagoda in drag in our family photos Your book is educational because I didn't know this stuff about uncle milty that he learned drag by by sneaking into drag balls I heard that it's not amazing. That's fascinating. They quoted him saying my drag is too gay to be gay I don't know what that means exactly. He didn't take it. Yeah, my drag is too gay to be gay I wrote that down. Yeah, that means either I guess it's too gay like ha ha ha then to be

Gay like and he did it for a long time He did his entire career no one's into the 80s. This is Donnie Marie. He did it his entire career! No one spent more time! Into the 80s. Gilbert Gottfried didn't spend that much time in a dress. Please! Nobody! So talk a little bit about the history, which I love. I love the fact that the book is a history book, it's a pop culture book. I mean, it drags back to Shakespeare beyond beyond that to the ancient Greeks I did the typical thing, you know, I was like, let's I move through thousands of years of theatrical history in two under words Okay, it's like moving. I was like, oh, yeah They did it in kabuki. They did it Elizabeth that you know, whatever ancient Greece bum 1912 let's start there And I get to that really quick. So there was a drag performer, a female mimic named Julian Eltinge, who was given his own Broadway theater,

which you can still see on 42nd Street. It's one of the multiplexes there right near the Port Authority. And it was the Julian Eltinge Theater in 1912. He had a magazine. He was like the Martha Stewart of drag. Then he was in movies, he was on the Toaster Broadway, and he was a drag performer. And if you said anything about his masculinity, taking the Alley and Beach up, or at least try. Now, but theater in general, theater at one time was old men. Yeah. Yes, exactly. No women allowed in theater. Yes. And so I talk a little bit about that. But honestly, I'm only interested in, I thought, I'm trying to get people interested in drag, but I thought, how far back can I go?

Because I didn't want it to be academic in this book. I wanted it to be fun and pop-cultural. Sure, but it is. It is fun, but there is some fun history. Can you confirm or deny that the term drag actually comes from performers dragging their petticoats? I didn't even put that in. I thought, that doesn't make sense to me.

Doesn't make sense. I was like, I'm not going to further that along. It doesn't make sense. Yeah, I thought that doesn't make sense. I was like, I'm not gonna further that along Yeah, yeah And dressed there was as a girl or something at the end, you know And I don't be addressed as girl I was like, I don't think that's true But do but do tell us about someone we're interested in Mae West and about her play and what was it 27? That was too controversial for New York City

She did a play called The Drag and apparently it it didn't, they couldn't open it here because they were in the midst of a crackdown, so they like played New Jersey, you know. It's come, as my mother used to say, come to New Jersey, all the gays are welcome there. That was my mother's line. And apparently, for Mae West, it was the same thing in the 20s.

Yeah, so she had this play called The Drag. She was, but she's such a, I love her because she's kind of like a drag queen, even though she was a lady, we think. Yeah, and she also, hell, this is some because she's kind of like a drag queen even though she was a lady. Yeah. We think. Yeah. She also helped, this is some fun history in the book, a performer, she helped a performer named Burt Savoy develop his persona. This is the guy that died. He helped her.

Oh, he helped her. Become her, you know. And he died a strange death, which I found fascinating too. Yeah, apparently the story is, and this is why you shouldn't throw shade in a lightning storm. He went out, he heard thunder and he said, that's enough out of you, Miss God, and got hit by lightning. Oh! So you can't be, how bad can my language be?

As salty as you like. You can't be punty to God, okay? You really can't. Don't say a bad word to God, because he'll smile. He's in charge of electricity. That is a fascinating thing. Watch your language around me. After that sitting there for your aristocrats.

Now, you must have, I have never seen this movie, believe it or not. You must own ten copies. Or not. And that's Myra Brighton. I knew he was going there. That's a good one. Yeah. But it's really, I mean, that's more, that's like a trans story.

So that's not even, I don't even know, that's like a trans story. So that's not even, I don't know if that's even mentioned in here because Raquel Welch is supposed to, you know, plays a woman or plays a, you know, a trans woman. Everything was lost in the translation from what Vidal wrote. Yes, I guess. I don't know. Gorr Vidal is mentioned though because this I loved because it's the kind of line you wish it was your own. There was this group in the sixties, late sixties in San Francisco called the Cockettes. And they were bearded.

He did a type 10 for him. He did a type 10. It was perfect. Very tight. Anyway, they were, 1969, they're the toast of San Francisco. They're bearded drag queens covered in glitter, sometimes naked, usually on LSD, performing. They become the toast of it, and Rex Reed writes them up, of course, and other people

do, and New York gets wind of it, they fly them to New York, and they bomb. They bomb. They're so weird. And Gore Vidal's line was, being untalented is not enough. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. They're so weird and Gore Vidal's line was being untalented is not enough. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. But yeah, but and this will kill this is why I like the cockettes. I mean, I don't get them, but I like it. They ask in the there's a documentary is quite wonderful about them. They asked John Waters about the cockettes and he says they were the first like bearded

LSD drag. He said that was new then he said that would be new now New now and then they ask hollywoodlawn right who's the drag or drag and trans performer whatever whichever stage of her career andy warhol girl you know the whole thing and they ask her to talk about them and she gets a look on her face like i don't know what to say about the cock is if you can get hollywood lawn to be speechless about a drag troupe you're really doing you know what long as Gilbert now that name sounds so familiar you know lady bunny do you know any of the the performers that Frank highlights in this book oh one of the things I like about

the book is a tribute to these artists to these oh it's a love letter it really is a lot of like our show I want to ask about too some of the early, some of the great comedians we talked about, Uncle Miltie. People like Wallace Beery, Fatty Arbuckle, Chaplin, even Laurel and Hardy. They all had this like drag character in there was... Did you know this? Sweetie the Swatter was like a series of short films. Abba and Costello did drag in certain things. Laurel and Hardy, well Laurel and Hardy played each other's wives.

Yeah, they trafficked in, but they trafficked in that gay thing a lot, even though they weren't talking about that. They were, you know, it was like, oh, we're both in a bed together, where we love, you know, they played with that, but they would end up in drag. It's kind of like everybody who's anybody has put on a dress at some point, you know. Sure, sure. Frank, you haven't. See, Gilbert and I have. The night is young, my friend. Well, I grew up, you know, with Flip Wilson and Maude Frickert. Yeah, but Flip was a big deal because it was always the,

how ugly do I look in drag? And then Flip Wilson shows up as Geraldine and she's kind of sexy. Yeah. And she traffics in this sort of feminist character with she's got a boyfriend who'll be named killer and he will if you refresh. She kind of seduces people. She almost marries O.J. Simpson in one episode of the Flip Wilson show. That's the most hilarious thing to me. It's like, oh and she flirts with Bill Cosby in another episode. Always could. She could have, she had a sex life, that one,

I'll tell you, she'd gone with it. She could have married O.J. and had sex with Bill Cosby. Now, what was always the case, every time a guy dresses as a woman on TV and movies, there's gonna be a guy who's obsessed with the guy. Who falls in love with him. Yeah, yeah. He's just crazy about him. Always.

That's the trope. You could, Abe Vigoda, the storyline of Abe Vigoda on Barney Miller is he's on Mugging to Tail and a guy offers him $20 for sex. I'm thinking of Bob Hope in Casanova's Big Night, which is another one. Yeah. But maybe kind of, wasn't he dressed sort of as like a Josephine kind of character in that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or of course later, later day Bob Hope when he would have the bazooms on the Bob Hope specials. They were like the two creepiest looking makeup jobs ever were the Waynes brothers. Oh, in what? In white chicks? Oh, yeah, that was a little weird. Yeah. Because you get white face and dress. It's if you do two things two things at once is a lot You know, I mean, it's like pick one or the other and I mean that that they look like characters out of like a horror film

It was like the elevator door would open to be all blood and they'd be standing there Yeah, it kind of looks like a little bit of that. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this. Speaking of horror films, let's just talk a little bit too. And again, the book is educational about movies. What book is that? Would it be drag? It's Drag by Frank Ticaro. Forward by Bruce Villellant, by the way. Yes. Also that thing you said. Him too. Friend and former podcast guest. No. Yes, him too. He is. Yes. A great ender-turned-blood.

He hides it really well. Even better than I do. I always thought he was a major cunt hound. That's what he called Mario. We had Cantone the first time we had Cantone in here and he called him famous cunt hunter. Mario Cantone. I also learned that Chaplin and Stan Laurel did drag in British Music Hall. Which was- Oh my god, I don't know if I knew that.

That's- Yeah, I did a little- They just love it. You know, I mean, it's Hollywood. There's, everywhere loves a little, a deeper extra research. They just love it. You know, I mean, it's Hollywood. There's, everywhere loves a man in a dress. Luke Costello, Jerry Lewis, who we're talking about Danny Kay and Bing in White Christmas. I think, oh, you know, the Sisters number.

But I was going to say, if you haven't played Carmen Miranda, you haven't really done anything, apparently in show business. It's like you need to be a man dressed as Carmen Miranda. Sure. And then we had Jamie Farr here, who made a, you know, made a career. His manager said that Jamie doesn't want to talk about dresses. Meanwhile, he showed up on The Cool Kids the other day, you know, dressed in drag.

Oh, you reached out? Yes, I wanted him to do a panel. And his manager didn't seem to even want to get him the message. I was like, okay, thanks for nothing. That's unfortunate. It seemed weird. It seemed also for a while, every famous black comedian had the fat black woman character. Oh, I got a call from a friend saying,

you defended Norbit with Eddie Murphy. And I was like, I love that movie. I think Raspuce is wonderful. And he's like, how could you put that in a book? And I was like, I think it's funny. Bless your heart, Frank. Look, you know, it's like, you got to go with your your gut and I think someone whose bikini bottom you can't see on a slide saying, I'm sliding bitches! Is funny. Sorry, that works for me.

I love the index in the back too, because you covered every- Oh, the drag dendem? The drag dendem. I mean, you even had Harvey Cor- what was Harvey Corman's character where you had the giant- Mother Marcus. Oh yes! Mother Marcus. You didn't miss a trick. Harvey Corbin's character where he had the giant... Mother Marcus. Oh yes! Mother Marcus! You didn't miss a trick. Well, you know, there's that great moment where she slams the door because she didn't

know he was going to look like that. And they open it again and he's holding the nipples like, ow! And that was his moment to crack Carol up, which was hard to do. But it's interesting the different, the ways drag was used in films. Four cheap laughs. It was either, it was the guy who, you know, it was like one step, two step, fall on your heel.

You know, the heel bends over. You know, you can't walk in his shoes. Oh, it's something like it hot. Or, you know, as you said, it's like there's always the guy who falls in love. They don't notice the hair, the man hands, the Adam's apple, nothing. They just, ooh baby, ooh baby,

you're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. Which is screwy to begin with. So there's that trope. Then there's the fractured personality thing, which I love. Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. That's always good. Like John Davidson.

John Davidson, yeah, oh he's a good, you know, don't make me kill again. That kind of, you know, thing in the mirror while you're doing your make up, right? Michael Caine in Dressed to Kill. Michael Caine in Dressed to Kill. Sure. And, but I, there are TV examples that are, okay, there's Jim Bailey who was like the female

impersonator. Oh, sure. He was like Phyllis Diller on Here's Lucy. Yeah, talented guy. So he does a bit on Vegas where he's a Judy Garland impersonator who's got a stalker and basically he shoots himself so that it looks like someone's trying to get him and stuff so he's a nut bar on that one there's all a Walston and oh yeah Caprice Caprice yeah it doesn't have the one where Doris Day pushes him to his death yeah always nice one one of the

characters that Rod Steiger is in the book no way to treat all in the book in here Frank didn't miss it got it all in there yeah I got as much as I could yeah we talked about that movie, William Goldman's script. I don't know if I've ever seen it. I mean, I've read about it. Very good. Yeah, but I do. There's part of me.

So that's the problem. It's like there's part of me that's fascinated, even if like the portrayal is terrible. Even if it's like the worst thing you could say about a drag performer, it is fascinating. You're like, oh, of course, she's out of her mind. She's dressed as a woman. Does Norman Bates count? Sure. Oh psycho drag is the best. Have you ever seen a

convincing case of a woman Dressed up as a man. Yeah, well I do yeah I think I think in the 70s Lily Tomlin did Tommy Velour with the chest wig and it was disconcerting Because none of us had ever seen a woman dressed as a man before with the chest hair, you know. And in those days, I mean, if she did a character and she had hair, that character had hair under her arms and it was a female character, we all went, you know, and but to see her with chest hair and it's like Lily Tommen is a lounge lizard. So that was, and she did Purvis, this other character.

Sure. But that was like, oh my God. That Glenn Close, Glenn Close movie, was it Albert Knobbs? Somebody Knobbs, yeah. Yeah, that's, she's pretty convincing. Don Knobbs. It was Don Knobbs. The incredible Mr. Limprist. And of course, boys don't cry. So yeah, well that's, see when it's a trans character, I stayed away from that because it's a drag role yes but it really is not a drag right character performance yeah yeah but speaking of Jim Bailey yes this I loved from him he performed in drag in a primetime tribute to the Super Bowl okay I did not know about this at the time I don't

sanity I was I was 17 18 when it was on so you know you're doing fun things you're not staying home watch you hope you're not home watch TV parent and if it was Super Bowl I totally wouldn't watch it because I'm a faggot. Anyway, as you said before. Anyway. So, no, I was going to say that he did a prime time salute to the Super Bowl. That would have probably been like Friday night or Saturday night in advance of the Super Bowl on that Sunday. And he arrives in an open convertible dressed as a Star is Born era Barbra Streisand singing Don't Rain on My Parade, okay,

for a Super Bowl special, and then performs in drag alongside Minnie Pearl in another number. What the fu-? Oh, it's like, that is, we, poor Alan Carr takes all that shit for Rob Lowe and Snow White. I don't think they can polish the shoes of Jim Bailey as Barbra Streisand on a Super Bowl special. That is just fucked up.

That is so weird. Could you find that? Yeah, it's on YouTube. Oh my God. You need to watch it. I absolutely must find that. We're trying to see. I tell people, and it's true, the reason I wrote this book was truly to get that picture

of Fred Gwynn as Herman Munster in a dress. That's why I needed to see it It's and it couldn't be the one from the reunion show where their waitresses it had to be that for me I had to get so I got it in there. There's an he did it again with Grandpa Munster Isn't there one where Eddie's a little girl? Oh, yeah, that was good. Yeah. Yeah, he also had a beard Yeah, but Eddie has a wig and becomes a little girl You don't see him in drag. It's actually a girl with his voice dubbed in. Thank God they didn't. He's got to have trouble.

He's butch Patrick into drag. He would have not so butch, Fem Patrick would have been the thing actually. Wait, so anyway, the reason, so now we're trying to get, I want to turn the book into a 10 part documentary series about the history of drag. Yeah, it's a great idea. And I want it to be really serious, not lighthearted, but not stupid, like journalistic and not frothy. You want Gilbert to narrate it? I do. I wanted to be, not that his clip is going in, but it's all because I need to get that clip of the Super Bowl special back on television. Oh, that's fine. It's like there's always that one

thing, like why do I need to do this? That's why. So that's an admirable goal. I hope. I wanna talk, these are some things that Gilbert will find interesting. We talked about Karloff in The Girl From Unkle, a 1952 movie called Old Mother Riley Meets the Vampire. Oh yes, yes. With Legosi. Bella Legosi and someone doing old lady drag. I kinda thought Maude Fricke was first, you know,

but apparently lots of old lady drag characters that people would do. Particularly in Britain too. Well, of course Carson took Maude Fricker. Oh, and Blabby, yes. Completely stole that from Jonathan Winter. Completely. Steal from the best. Yes. Can I tell you what Jonathan Winter's thing? Please. I was writing a story as a journalist, I was writing a story years ago when that stupid

Rocky and Bullwinkle movie came out, right? And they needed the stars, whoever they, I don't even remember who it was, that were not ready for me. So they were like, well, there's someone you could talk to. And they walk me to like the day player trailer and they open the door and it's Jonathan Winters sitting there. And we sat and talked for an hour, even though it was, we were just, we shot the shit for an hour with John and it was just like, how nice it was like they acted like we were babysitting each other.

That's nice. And I was like, you just took me to the pope of comedy and said, you are now have an audience by yourself for an hour. Oh my God. It was genius. And it was really show business offers rewards, sudden rewards, surprise rewards like that. Sometimes it's true, but there's how many people would have been like who are you you know? I was just I was dying you know you're like you'd walked in you'd had 50 things to ask I was like I could talk to you all day. I know exactly what I want to know There's another one for you Gilbert Jackie Coogan and Sid Melton is cross-dressing cops Wow in the beat generation so Jackie I

Jackie He looks worse in drag than I do. There are days if I don't get enough sleep, we look like uncle, I look like Uncle Fester, I totally do. But it's like with him, it's like there, you look at him and it's like, well, at least I'm cuter than you, you know, in a dress.

But yeah, no, it's the, it's this beat movie. And yeah, it's weird. Cause they're like- Was Sid Melton in Drake? Apparently. Yeah, they were on a state, it was one of those stakeouts. You know, oh God. Yeah, it's a weird,'re like shit melting and Drake apparently yeah, they were on a state was one of the stakeouts You know oh, yeah, yeah, it's a way. That's an obscure one though, but anytime I found something weird like that I was like oh, let's put it in how about Paul in doing drag in the glass bottom boat. Yes, of course

He's in there. He's got that he's got it like a red updo and this off-the-shoulder thing Kill you want to see all these? But the one I can never find footage of. When I was a kid, there was the version of Hollywood Squares called Storybook Squares. Oh, sure. Right? Yes. Anyway, Paul Lind was, I think, the Wicked Witch of the West.

Oh my God. And he came out and he said, I love kids, but I can't bear them. That was his big line. But it was like, so he did drag as, you know, I think he did it as much as he wanted. He said, I'll come out with a purse if I want to. You know, there was all those interviews where he, he said, remember the play, where it was Pent, People Magazine, not either of those, People Magazine, he said, gay people kill

Judy Garland. They're not going to kill me. Wow. Oh, he was the best. Now, now, Vult said- Valencia has some great stories about him. Yes. That actress was her name, Linda Hunt.

Yes. From the year of Living Dangerously. She's in there. Yeah. She was playing like a boy. Yeah. That was good. And that wasn't a drag role, but it was a, it was a male role, but she was really good.

And she won an award. So you have like a little Oscar or something. You know, speaking of the old tropes, I always remember the sitcoms with Gilbert's talking about how somebody always falls in love. Oh, instantly. But I always, I always liked the gag where he says, I'm not putting on a dress. And they would do the cut, or if it was like, Angorn. Vrooot.

They'd have that sound effect. Suddenly the character would be in drag. I think Larry Storch is in drag at least one or two times in old F-Troop episodes. Oh, I have to say, you know, I didn't realize, Bob Denver, they would, if Dobie Gillis, he's in drag, Manege Krebs is in drag, and Gilligan is in drag, and he plays Mrs. Howell in one episode. It's a little weird. They would do anything. TV was more fun. On the subject of that, I'm going to ask you about a couple of podcast guests that we had. Uh-oh.

Max Baird Jr. Jethreen Bodine! Wow! Hillbilly She-Beast! Max Baird Jr. Jethreene Bodine! And wow! He'll be like, she beast! It's like, yeah. Was that, was she the best, I tell you. Jethreene Bodine. Oh!

So weird. Jethreene, Michael McKean. Okay, there's an episode of Lenny and Squiggy on Laverne and Shirley dress up as Lenore and Squendal in a girl gang Yeah, and they're trying to infiltrate a girl gang, but it's Lenore and Squendal in and it ends with you here in the hallway And it's like I'm not that kind of girl It's like they because she's like you really should tell these guys and so one of the guys gets fresh and clinger We talked about clinger the bad we had Jamie far on the show. I think you know you this is why you want to smack

Managers, you know you always get in our way. Yeah, it's like you know, this is why you want to smack managers. You know, you just want to go with... Oh, they always get in our way. Yeah, it's like, why are you... It's like, you want to say to him, you do realize that when, when the good Lord calls Jamie home, and I hope it's many, many years from now, he's going to be remembered as Max Clinger. There is nothing you can do about that.

If he doesn't want to talk about me, you better own being in a that's all anybody's gonna run ain't gonna be the gong show now Yeah, yeah, so buddy. Yeah, and it's like and I bet you Jay, and you know, I don't think he would have done Drag as Vicki Lawrence on the cool kids a few weeks back, right had it if he were so uncomfortable Well, we'll put in a call to Jamie. Okay, I was gonna say Cuz he was a girl call Jamie far's not. See if we can cut the ice. Because he wants to say no. Darrell, let's call Jamie Farr for Frank and see what we can do. And a guest we had a couple of weeks ago, Robert Wagner?

Oh yeah, there's, okay, how stupid is this? I'm late to the heart to heart saga, okay? I had never seen it when it was on then. I don't know what I was doing at the time, but I was not watching it. Now I love it. And my husband says to me, it's because it's really simplistic. it's really simplistic and you can follow Jim Colucci author of Golden Girls Who's here? You're a former guest. Yes, but you know, he always previous me I should say cuz he's he basically says cuz the plots are really simple and you can understand them because if it's convoluted

I do tend to not know what the hell's going on. But yeah, there's there a couple of episodes Where there's drag and Robert Wagner is in a spa episode where he's in drag. But the best one is Lionel Stander in drag. Oh, no. There's an episode called Murder is a Drag. And Lionel Stander has to sneak out of this party or whatever it is, and he goes into a walk-in closet. And people are,

this hot young couple jumps into the bed in the master bedroom and they're getting it on and he's getting dressed and he's like what the hell and he comes out in this floor length blue thing with that voice and he says I'm coming out of the closet and he walks out of the room and the two people in bed are like what the hell's going on and what I love about it and I think it's because Mark Crowley, who wrote The Boys in the Band, he was a producer there or whatever. Oh yes, he was. So they're not gonna do offensive gay jokes,

and it ends up being better, because what they end up doing is they play the whole thing where he goes, he comes in at the end, the little tag at the end, he goes, men, you can keep them. And he says, oh sure, when he's had a few drinks, he wants to show me his diamond mines and his, the whole thing, then he sobers up

and I'm not cute enough for him. And he said, you can keep them. And he gets up and so instead of it being, you know, something offensive, it's just him playing it out as if my whole life was gonna be great. He was gonna take me and it's not like he was gay. You never sit there and, but it was just a straight guy doing the shtick

of I was gonna be taken care of and have security and Now I got nothing. You know, I listed out there in Lionel standard. Yeah, there was a case This is a case of a guy The character loses his clothes and has to wear a dress to cover himself And that was in a Rock Hudson movie Where he like somehow loses his clothes and he's walking down the street. Just think about that for a moment.

Okay, there we go. Yeah, he's walking down the street in a dress and someone catches him and goes, boy, it's always the guy you least expect. Yeah, about Rock. Yeah. That is so meta. That is so inside baseball. That is so I love

They they would play there were a lot of things There's one where he's he talks about clipping recipes or something. You're just like my god. It's like right in plain sight They're playing with and and then there was that movie Where Carrie Grant? Oh, I was a male And they said why are you wearing a dress? And he goes, all of a sudden I started feeling gay. Is that a Howard Hawks movie? I don't know, but that was really good. No, I just think it's funny that you put him in a horsehair wig and he's still like, oh,

Jesus, you're still handsome. It's like, some people just got it. Yeah, some people... Cary Grant, even in a dress, you're still pretty handsome. Yeah. What about flattering portrayals or situations where they're not being played for cheap laughs like John Lithgow in Garp? Yeah, that's a trans character though, so it's a little bit different. Yeah, there are moments where, and Louie Anderson is very...

Yeah, Louie Anderson. ...doing wonderful, and that's a female role that he's playing, so that's good. Even Antonio Fargas in Car Wash. Yeah, that was good. He's a female role that he's playing so that's good. Yeah, even Antonio Fargas in car wash Yeah, that was a character people if he plays Lindy, right? So he's got he's got a necklace his sexy bitch and he has the best line ever and I quoted in the book Drag coming through the big piece of show business available now. Anyway, no, I he He says I am somebody's like gay bashing him and he says I am more man than you'll ever be and more woman than you'll ever Get and apparently people who saw that on 42nd Street in

1970 whatever that got huge applause and it's not because it was a room full of gay people It was because of people on 42nd Street We're glad that the the guy you know, the underdog is speaking to the bully and and so they liked a lot He's pretty good. He was Huggy Bear on Starz Yeah, it looks good too, but Lindy was his character in Car Wash and he had a little hair net and the sexy bitch necklace. So he was kind of now would call gender fluid, you know, because he's not really in drag, but he's a drag queen. Did you find it fascinating a couple of years ago when Hoffman was talking about playing Dorothy Michaels in Tootsie, and by the way, the new music, you guys seen

the new musical? Oh, I saw it the other day, it was fantastic. Yeah, written by our friend David Yazbek. That he brought himself to tears. Do you remember this? A couple of years ago, Hoffman was- Oh, cause he said that the kind of woman he was, he would never be attracted to. Yeah. He would never try to ask her out. Yeah, they did an interview.

I mean, there's a movie, there's a movie with a drag performance where there's a reason for it to exist. Because it's very much, makes a point. Yeah. About a guy for it to exist. Because it very much makes a point about a guy putting a dress on. There's plenty of laughs in the movie, but in putting on a dress, it's not simply played for laughs. No, he honestly becomes a better man

by having become a woman. I mean, there are people, I mean, now they had it updated and they did a great job of it. But that sort of whole thing. And it was challenging to update it, I'm sure. Well, no. So there are people who are very upset by the notion that, you know, oh, it's a man and a...

They're just the man in a dress to some people if you're not gay or a drag performer. But I just went to that and I thought, I think straight people should do drag too. I think it's good for you. It's like, go put on that dress. And Santino Fontana rocks. Isn't he great? He's so good. You see the Tutsi musical. Yeah, you need to go. It's really good. It is dress and Santino Fontana rocks. Isn't he great? Oh good in you guys you see the tussy musical

Yeah, you need to go. It's really it's very good. It is the funniest book of a musical I've seen probably since book of lots of laughs Larry David did a great job was the one I think it may have Amanda what's her name? And it what's that child that? Trish from like the Disney kind of films? She plays, it's based on a Shakespearean play. Andrea McArdle? No.

Amanda Bynes? Amanda Bynes. Thanks, Frankie. And it was based on a Shakespearean play, but she plays like a girl disguised as a guy. You know, she's going to school and it's not, oh, Wow. I don't know which one. Our listeners are screaming at their devices.

I know just one of the guys, which was a, which was a, no, that was in the, that was an eighties comedy. That was a teen comedy. Yeah. She plays, she goes to the other school as a boy. Yeah. Tootsie. Yeah.

Tell us about the, the Flip Wilson thing too, that, that it it's sort of the characters sort of he had a strange relationship with the character Yeah focus a flip for people to know flip Wilson was the first African I mean there's some question about whether he was first or there was a summer replacement show With with Nat King Cole or but anyway But he's kind of the first guy to have to be African American and host his own variety show on network television And it was a huge hit and held its own Yeah against all in the family and other shows anyway he had all these characters that he did and the only one anyone really liked was Geraldine Jones who was this drag character and

she was sassy and she wore poochie print dresses and she Had catchphrases that we all you what you see is what you get Okay, the devil made me buy your dress devil made me do it. Yeah, devil made me do it. Yeah And she had catchphrases that we all use, what you see is what you get. The devil made me buy this dress. The devil made me do it. The devil made me do it. Anyway, so he did this character. And he ended up, there was a biography written,

and I think it was Gladys Knight, who was in some show he did later on. And she said that Flip ended up hating that character because she was on more covers than he was. I mean, she was on, you know, Ebony or Jed or whatever. So his alter ego took over. And people, you know, even when they were winning the Emmys, Johnny Carson made, as the host, made fun of them and said, you've done so much for the black man, you put him

in a dress. So there was all that shame thrust upon him for playing this character. But he kind of made his peace by the end of his life and he said, she carried me longer than my mother did. Wow. And that's sweet. That's strange that you had a short life. Yeah, he did.

Flip Wilson. Well, you look at this book. Apparently being in drag is a tough life. Don't do it too often. Your days will be numbered. No, it's a lot of people for any number of reasons. I think particularly among the performers who are, you know, more the fringe performers. Sure.

There's 50, and it's not just like, oh, they got AIDS and died. It's like AIDS and murder sometimes. That was a lot of tragedy. You know, heart attack on a during a show or whatever, you know, and it's tough. You don't get to too many who are in their 80s. Although I did meet the Guinness World Record holder for the oldest still working drag queen, and he's either 87 or 89 now. And he's a war veteran and his name is, he goes by Darcel15, and he's the toast of Portland. And his 60-some year old son bartends in his bar,

and his granddaughter waits tables, and he's a big drag queen. And he's still married, he's got a wife and he has a husband. That's just his career. Now, do you believe guys who dress up in women's clothes all the time who say that there's a difference between being a transvestite and being gay? Yeah, sure. A lot of transvestites apparently are heterosexual.

Yes, like Eddie Izzard. They're your people, not mine. No, they are. No, oh sure, a lot of transvestites apparently are heterosexual. Yes, like Eddie Izzard. They're your people, not mine. No, they are. No, apparently they do. No, that's a thing. Guys like that and they're into it. But I'm talking, I mean this book is about showbiz drag. Yeah, it's about, yeah.

It's got to be your work clothes for me. Otherwise, that's a whole other book. You wrangled an interview with somebody we've been trying to get on this show. Who? Robert Morse, the great Robert Morse. Wow. And congratulations. He did an interview with him? with somebody we've been trying to get on this show, Robert Morse, the great Robert Morse. Wow! He did an interview with him?

He came up to Sirius and I interviewed him up there and I saved the transcript and that's how I ended up in this book. But he's, the day it was published, my husband's in LA and he's- Jim Colucci. Jim Colucci, Golden Girls forever. And gotta get that in there, we gotta pay the rent. Squeeze him in. Get him in.

Anyway, and he looks across and there's Robert Morse having lunch at the deli that we go to all the time. And he's like, oh my god, we have books in the car. We learned from Marsha Wallace, God rest her soul, you always keep your book in the car, two or three copies just in case you run into somebody you need to give it to. So Jim said, it's pub date. It was the first, it really was April 30th, the official pub date. And he went to the car and he got one and he came over and we had met him before.

We apparently eat at all the same places. We're on the same lunch schedule as Robert Morris. We run into him all the time. And so Jim gave him a copy of the book and he said, could I take a picture holding it and you'll send it to Frank? And then he said, here, open to my page. And he opens to the page where he's playing the, there's a musical called Sugar that was the musical version of Some Like It Hot and he played the Jack Lemon part. And so he, there's a picture of him and he's holding, it's really swell, he's holding open the book to his page and stuff.

Yeah, he's, I love him so much. We're huge fans. We'll swap with you. Okay. We'll work on Jamie Farr if you call Robert Morse for us. Good. I'll do, I'll have to do. He apparently, he said to Jim, he said, could I call Frank? I'm still waiting. But he said, could I call Frank and tell him how much I like the book? And I was like, no, yeah, you could do that. I do.

Last question. There was a Charles Pierce show. Charles Pierce is one of the artists in the book. He's one of my favorites. Yes, as well as the other Charles's, the famous Charles's Bush and Ludlamum There was a Charles Pierce show that featured that featured uncle milty and be Arthur. Okay So 25 years this summer for you imagine Gilbert for the gays. This is your for the gays thing Okay, this summer is Stonewall 50. Okay 50th anniversary of the beginning of the gay rights movement big deal We're all the gay. We're all nuts. Okay, we're all thrilled. So we got our outfits picked out and everything So that's coming up this year. 25 years ago, they did Stonewall 25. And one of the things that they did was

it was called Charles Bush's Dressing Up. And it was a show at Town Hall and Uncle Miltie was in drag. Did I have the wrong Charles? Charles Pierce performed. Oh, Charles Pierce. So Bush hosted, Pierce performed, and Charles Pierce was besties with Bea Arthur. And so she was there. And I don't remember if she was on stage or in the audience. She must have come out for some reason. But Milton Berle did not want to leave.

He was supposed to do like five minutes. And 25 minutes later, they sent Charles Pierce out to get him. I love it. So he's dressed as Bette Davis, and he's going out there to get Milton Berle off the stage. Every drag queen of any import in New York was there that night, and even though I'm not a drag, because I'm a drag hag, number one, I went. And it was amazing. And I interviewed Charles Pierce as well.

Charles, do you know his work at all? Not familiar, no. Okay, Charles Pierce, they called him the funniest man in a girdle. That was what they used to say about him. He would do, he did Mae West, Tallulah Bankhead, he did a lot, but Mae West, Tallulah Bankhead, Betty Davis. Betty Davis was his masterwork, but he would do a bit where it was Betty Davis

throwing shade, as the kids say, insulting, Tallulah Bankheadhead and vice versa, just flipping the wig and going left to right with the microphone and doing all that. He would do both characters back and forth. And it would be things like, you know, I saw you in the, I saw you in the doorway with the light behind you, you look like Orson Welles.

And then the other one would turn and say, darling, it's either moisturizer or wood filler. And they would go back and forth and read horrible things. And so they would do all this shtick. But he was so great. And he would do really dirty Mae West jokes. And he would do, he did Marilyn Monroe. And she's, and in her voice, he would say,

I was eight before I was seven. Things like that. So it was like dirty material. He was so funny and so good. And he had a pretty good long career. More people should know about these great performers. Well because all the kids think drag began with RuPaul's Drag Race season one and I was like well there's at least a hundred years that you need to know about them so that's why I did that. And

there's Divine and there's all these other people that then Dame Edna and all these other people that deserve attention. Plugs, Frank you're gonna be signing. Yes oh my god god, we're doing- You're doing DragCon, but I don't think we're gonna get that one up in time, because it's May 26th? Yeah, next weekend we're gonna do DragCon. In LA, we're gonna do a signing at the Barnes and Noble at the Grove on June 4th, which is a big deal, because unless you're a celebrity, they don't give you that space. For some reason,

they were like, Dragbook? Yes. So we're're doing that and then I'm gonna be at the Santa Monica Public Library with Pandora Box which will be finished with drag queen on the next day Gilbert you work with Pandora Box all the time very sweet she's Miss Congeniality she's very lovely drag queen and then we're gonna do I'm gonna be in Palm Springs on the 15th and then I'm coming to New York to do the Pride Week here is the last week of June and it's a big this year it's World Pride it's a big this year's World Pride is a big deal for the gays Gilbert.

Yeah. Okay and Frank DeCaro of show.com. Oh wait, yes I was going to say, but we are doing, so that's Barnes and Noble at Union Square on the 26th and then I'm going to be at Cast Party and I'm going to be a bunch of little things. That'll be fun. And we're, my husband and I are two of the LGBTQ authors that we're going to walk in the parade with the barnes and noble people and wonderful two of the 50 congratulations as a couple jim is here jim did our show previously with his golden girls book

which you guys have to get is it okay to say you're working on a love boat book or is that a secret it's okay it's good he's nodding he's working on a love boat make him finish it for god's sake and i'm gonna plug your other book the dead Dead Celebrity Cookbook, which I own and love. Thank you. Yeah, it was fun. We got a nice thing. It's very exciting. It's nice to have a book that people are liking.

Congratulations. Let's hope for a third printing. And I hope you realize your dream of getting that Super Bowl clip back on television. I got to get that thing out there. Oh, it's going to drive me crazy if I don't. I want that back on television. I gotta get that thing out there. Oh, it's gonna drive me crazy if I don't... I want that back in prime time, you know? This is what a subversive gay needs, you know? You're sitting there going, what could I do to...

fuck around with the current administration? I could get a drag queen singing Don't Rain On My Parade back in prime time, that's what I can do. So that's my goal. It would be a significant contribution. The very funny Frank Decaro. Yes. I'm gonna say it this time Drag coming through the coming through you don't come through call me you right come stop that gilbert put it away Oh Lord coming in a drag queen He puts on the Madeline outfit and then takes it out we're gonna we're gonna post pictures of your leg coming over

the Colming through the big wigs of show business forward by our friend Bruce Ville Two are horrible has come all over many drag queens? I'm sure he has. Oh my god! Once in a while! It's a pride thing. We did it for as a salute. The dirtiest show we've ever done and we had Mr. Skin here. No! Who is... You'll tell me in the dream. We'll tell you. We'll tell you. Thank you, Frank.

Thank you, Jim. We love you guys. We love you guys, too. This has been Gilbert and Frank's! Colossal Obsessions We're the Black Brats!