Girl on Guy with Aisha Tyler - girl on guy 181: jesse l martin

Episode Date: April 21, 2015

join jesse l. martin of the flash and aisha as they race through a delicious bottle of rye whiskey, and discuss all things theater, broadway, new york, television, film, vision and charm. plus jesse has a terrible experience with whiskey. aisha can relate. girl on guy needs a moment. and maybe some fresh air.

This episode of Girl and Guy is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the easiest way to create a beautiful website, blog, or online store for you and your great ideas. It features an elegant interface, beautiful templates, and an incredible 24-7 customer support. Try Squarespace at Squarespace.com and enter offer code Aisha at checkout to get 10% off. Squarespace, build it beautiful. This is Girl on Guy. Hey, everybody, welcome to Girl on Guy 181. Welcome to the show.

This is a wonderful episode of the show, and I cannot wait to bring it to you. And not much news other than I will be performing live in Brooklyn at the BAM Festival. It is going to be Bullseye Comedy Night at BAM on May 9th. In Brooklyn, tickets are limited, so go to AishaTeller.com and click on Aisha on tour to get your tickets before they are sold out. Very few live shows this year. So this is your opportunity to see me live. It's going to be a great show with a lot of amazing comedians. And yours truly.

along for the ride. Also, you know you can go to AishaTalai.com to get all of your Girl and Guy gear, including t-shirts, self-inflicted wounds, the book, the audio book, and the app if you want to become a premium subscriber. It's your opportunity to show your love for the Army and become a member of the Girl and Guy Vanguard. So visit Girlonguy.comit.orgi.com. Or you can write me a letter and get your Army gear at the store. Go check that out. Don't forget also that season three of Who's On Is It Anyway has started. It has started the very first episode of season three was on April 17th, and it airs every Friday on the CW. You should check that out.

This season is the funniest we've ever done, and I'm damn fucking proud of it. So go check that out that's happening now. Archer is over, but Who's Line has started? And it's pretty much a year-round party. If you are a member of the Army, there's lots of ways to see my ridiculous face dancing around like an idiot on the television. So every day on the talk and every Friday night now on Whose Line's Day, Anyway, on the CW, through the end of 2015, my friends, we made a lot of episodes of that show. So check that out as well, 8 o'clock on Fridays on Fridays on Friday's on the CW. This episode, O'Grill on Guy, is brought to you in part by Squarespace.

And if you go to Squarespace.com, enter the promo code, Aisha, at checkout, you will get 10% off your Squarespace website experience. I've told you guys this many times that I built my own website for the podcast, right? Way back in the day, way back in the beginning. It was excruciatingly painful. Painstaking took days and weeks, and I sprained an eyeball, and that is not a fucking joke. I had insane eyeball pain. And when I went to my eye doctor, she's like, you sprained your eyeball muscles. And I was like, I am officially technically and in every way, medically and idiot.

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They're a great sponsor, a great supporter. And when you avail yourselves of this offer, you're letting them know that their support of Girl and Guy is meaningful. So check it out. Go to Squarespace.com and use the. the offer code A-I-S-H-A to get 10% off your first purchase. Check out Squarespace, Build It Beautiful. All right, this episode of Girl and Guy is with the Fantastic, the Brilliant,

the Lovely, the Delightful, and the Uber-Talented Jesse L. Martin, who you know from one bajillion shows. But right now he's on a show called The Flash, a big fat hit on the CW. But he's done so much stuff. We're not even going to scratch the surface here. I mean, this is a really long, wonderful conversation, But I don't even really feel like I was able to do Jesse Justice. He's an extraordinary talent, one of my favorite people ever, before this episode, and

even more a favorite of mine after. We get right into it. We start drinking rye. We start talking. It's a great conversation. I recorded this right before I hosted the Paleyfest panels, the 2050 Paleyfest panels for both Arrow and the Flash. And I will post links to those on the website.

So go check those out at girl and guy. dot net. But this is a great show. And if you're not watching The Flash, now is a good time to start. But do be aware of the fact. that there are some spoilers buried in this episode. So be aware of that. It's a great episode. He's a great guy. I'm not going to preface it anymore other than to say that he's a delight and this conversation was spectacular. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Girl on Guy 181 with the fantastic

talent, Jesse L. Martin of rent and law and order and of late of the flash and many other things coming at you straight out of the Girl on Guy Lair and right into your face. Jesse L. Martin. Welcome to my show. That's your disambiguation initial. I want to ask you right away, did that, did you have to do that for the union? I did.

And apparently, I'm not really even supposed to say Jesse L. Martin. Really? I have to state my whole name, Jesse Lamont Martin. Oh, really? I've never seen you credited that way, though. No. Just because I like Jesse L. Martin better,

and I just like I call myself what I want. Are there other Jesse L. Martins in the union? Other Jesse Martins. Oh, okay. I know that because I know that they've gotten checks of mine, and I've gotten checks of theirs. I imagine that your checks are more exciting to receive than theirs were. Not necessarily. There was one girl who was a voiceover person, and she was bawling.

Oh, wow. And this is back when I wasn't balding. Oh, okay. I just joined the union, so I'd be bawling. I wanted to keep that check, but I knew it wasn't mine. Yeah, and you know what you'd hope she'd do the same for you in the future. Make that gesture. I don't know. Maybe not now.

We are drinking on this show. Cheers. How did you describe? We're drinking a botanical rye, this Powwow Botanical Rye, and tell everybody what you said it tasted like. Well, it tastes like whiskey and flowers, which I wouldn't have known is a good thing. But it's a really good thing. Pretty good, right?

Yeah, it's like drinking a girl. That's beautiful. I hope Powwaw is listening. We need to put that in an ad. Hey, we could both do an ad for Powwale. We just did. We're pretty brown people. We are beautiful brown people, drinking beautiful bound liquor.

Exactly. So, first of all, I feel like I've known you forever, but I don't really know where we met. I don't either. But I do know that the first time I saw you was in New York City, and I kind of lost it a little bit. I kind of came up to you and acted like I knew you better than I could have possibly ever known you just because I was like, oh my God, there she is. She got to be the funniest and prettiest person around town. Ridiculous. This is when you were doing, I think you were doing the soup then.

Oh, wow. Okay. So it has been a long time then. Yeah, a long, long time. You know what's so weird about? I just have to say something about that, though. Okay. I have to thank you for something because you, there's a lot of people you run into, like you said, we don't really know each other.

We just know of each other and we see each other. But I have to say that you're always the same exact person every single time I see you and I really appreciate that. Really? A lot of people aren't. Oh, wow. A lot of people aren't. Yeah, that's true. It's kind of heartbreaking, too, occasionally.

It breaks my heart sometimes. Yeah. Somebody you really just enjoy their talent. Love and, yeah. You go, wait. Shame. We're going to have an offline conversation about that because I think actually I saw you at CW Upfronts last summer, whatever, like last May.

And that big party in that downstairs area where it was like mayhem. And then there was somebody I saw that night and I was like, you're different tonight. Oh, really? Yeah. I can tell you. And I was like, well, you, but it's interesting. I don't know. We'll talk more about it, but you have to, it's hard to kind of, you want to avoid your idols, right?

Because you're always worried that someone is going to turn up and not be lovely. Well, I don't avoid them for that reason. I mean, you still kind of want to meet them. Right, right. You just really, really pray and hope that they don't have to fool that day. Yeah, you know what I hope you get them on a good day. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so it's, I'm so excited to have you here.

How am I going to start? Let's, you know what, we'll start now with what's happening now, and then we'll go to the beginning. Because one of the reasons you're in town, you're on The Flash and you guys shoot in Vancouver, but you're here for Paley Fest. And we're doing that together. I'm going to be moderating your panel, so I'm super excited about that. And I will tell you just in advance, and this is just my own confessional, I'm a little anxious about getting like the canon right, because you know how comic people are. Yeah, you know what? I was, too.

Like, the first time we even went to Paley and we did one of these panels, I have no shit about the comic. Yeah. I don't even know that much about the Flash, to be honest. I really don't. And I tell them constantly, I was like, look, I don't even need to know. I'm the human. I'm the guy who's finding all this stuff out the same time as the audience is. So, like, don't tell me anything.

Right, right. My producers get really excited and they start saying things like, oh my God, you're going to fight a gorilla. And I'm like, shut up. I don't even know what you're talking about with guerrillas. Like, just shut up. Don't tell me anything. Right. And I like it that way.

And, you know, we go to these Comic-Con and whatnot, and these kids know everything there is to possibly know. They know every universe of the Flash. They know where Joe might have come from. They know where Iris come from. They know where Iris is going. Right. And I have to tell them to shut up too.

I don't want to know, right? I don't want to discover this along with Joe. Exactly. The problem, not the problem. One of the challenges with Canon, specifically with a property as old as the Flash, is there is no one storyline for this guy. No.

The world's been rebooted 100 times. They just rebutted it again with the new 50s. Like, you can't know. You can't really know. And so, in a lot of ways, like, you just have to start again. Like, this show, this universe, this reboot. This is this particular expression. Not only that, you can't, you can't get mad at it either

because, like, the guys who are writing and drawing the comics are writing our show. Right, right. Are they how involved? They're pretty involved. I know Jeff Johns is, like, very, very involved. Okay, yeah. You probably just need a, like, somebody just to console.

to be like, no, that's not, or this is right, that isn't right. I don't know how they do it. I mean, I should probably find out, but... No, you should just show up in the way. Yes, yeah, that's right. I just want to act. I don't really care to do all that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's funny.

As an actor, as a fan, I always want to know everything. You know what I mean? As an actor, yeah, there is... It's problematic if you know what's going to happen down the line for your character, because then that creeps into the way you act the moment. Totally. Then, yeah. And that is a complex universe that you guys live in.

That's why I don't want to know. Right? And do they do that? Do they give you guys Bibles on characters or any? No, I think they give you what you ask for. Right. Right. I think sometimes they get a little excited and they tell you a little bit more than you probably wanted to know. But like I know that Grant Gosten who plays Flash, he knows a lot more than I do. Right. Carlos Valdez, who plays Cisco. That kid seems to know everything.

I think he likes it like that. Right. Like he starts talking about things that are happening like, I don't know. Seasons away. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. And please stop talking. I can't take it.

I just can't take it. I don't know what that is. He's looking forward to the whole notion of becoming. Wait, because his character... So look, if you guys don't read the comic books or you watch the show, let me just say that they're going to spoilers in this episode. And additionally, there's spoilers you can find on the internet. So it's not like this isn't shit that's already happened five times in the comic books.

True that. And I've only said one thing right now that could have been a spoiler, but I'm not that worried about it. No, no, no. But the fact of matter is, like, this... this world in so many ways was spoiled by the coming books like 20 years ago. You know what I mean? It's all happened. I mean, one interesting thing is like almost everybody on the show is going to eventually evolve into a superhero or a supervillain.

Except for me. Except for Joe. Joe is just stays human. Just stay human. But you're your own kind of superhero. You know what? I'm superhuman. You are.

I mean, you know. I just get to be the best human ever. What's been so nice for me because I'm watching the whole season getting ready for tomorrow is. seeing the relationship between Joe and Barry. Yeah. It's really, really lovely. It's awesome. And it shocks me because, like, I honestly didn't see it coming.

I knew meeting Grant Day 1 that we would totally get along. He's a great kid. He's supremely talented. Like, I don't know a whole lot of young actors who can work on that many levels at the same time. You know, when I was his age, I was literally picking one level and really committed to it. But, like, I had one level. Right, right. He's got a good three or four.

can jump back and forth however he wants to. Yeah. And I'm like, wow, man, I had to work so hard to get there. You just do it without even thinking. Yeah. So, like, our chemistry is, I can't say we work for it because we don't have to. That's nice. But also, I mean, kind of the way that it's been, and again, I love comic books, but I'm not encyclopedic.

I had, like, my two comic books I was as a kid. You know what I mean? I got, I can't, if it wasn't in, well, Teen Titans and X-Men. And then a little bit of the Dark Night once it started to be, when they started to do the graphic novels, like the books, I, would get those. But like I, I don't know the flash. I don't, I don't know that, I don't know that. I don't know DC that well, except for, you know, Batman Dark Night. So, um, what I love is that there's this beautiful my father raised me. So maybe I also, I'm like, maybe a little more connected to the storyline

than most people. I just love that it's, I'm just loving that it's this black single father, raising this boy. A lot of times the interior of the conversation is about two men, kind of navigating their relationship and it's not a genetic relationship. And, you know, this kid's carrying a lot of anger and Joe's carrying his own set of kind of regrets. Oh, definitely. Yeah, it's just, it's been really lovely to see. And I don't know, I don't know if it's been, it seems like it's been nice to play. You're saying it's, it's definitely been nice to play.

I mean, it's funny because I had a conversation with Candice Patton, who plays my daughter, Iris. And she said there was a Twitter thing going right now. And I wouldn't know, because I'm not on Twitter. I'm not on Instagram. Save yourself. None of that stuff. Save yourself. I just don't have any energy.

No. And once you start, it's an obligation. I also said that, like, you know, speaking of that social media thing, where it's like inviting all these people to the bathroom with you and then getting mad when they see you pee. Mm-hmm. Well put.

It's just, I can't do it. No, absolutely. Anyway, she said that on social media, there's this whole little thing, like, who's your daughter, Joe? Because I'm having so many wonderful moments with Barry. Oh, right. And the irises stand over in the corner somewhere like word.

You know, everything. You know, I mean, look, everybody, first of all, Joe doesn't write the show. I don't. Yes, Jesse doesn't write the show. And we got a lot more coming up. I always kind of has her, also has her shit together a little bit. I mean, you know, yeah, she's, you raised her right,

she's self-possessed, she's building a career, she's smart, she's inquisitive. Barry needs a little bit more curation, right? And also, yeah, also you guys are a team, you know, in a way, in a different way than you are. Yeah. work together. Yeah.

So take it easy, everybody. I know. It's just kind of funny. I think some people say, you know, they look and they go, well, you spend all this lovely moments with this boy and your daughter sitting there worried about Eddie. Yeah. Or worried about Flash. Yeah.

Getting herself in all kinds of trouble, just asking questions. But that's what Iris does. Yeah. Yeah. She's a journalist. She's a journalist. And she has, I mean, like I said, she has her shit together. They're like, funny, at least as a viewer, I don't, I'm not worried about Iris.

Right. Like, I'm never, like, what, why isn't anybody taking care of Iris? Iris is taking care of herself. She's fine. Exactly. Women in the 90s is doing it. All right, let's go, let's go back to the beginning now. Okay.

It's good. So where were you born? I was born in a small town called Rocky Mount Virginia. Oh, wow. I can't even tell you the population, but it's not a whole lot. There's probably four digits. Wow. The only thing notable in town is a small college called Ferram College, which I used to think was an agricultural college, but it's not so much anymore.

We were born in, I lived on a place called Brown Hill with my grandparents most of the time. Really? Because my mom and dad worked. When my dad was a truck driver, I wasn't even sure what my mom was doing when we were kids. I don't even know if she worked then. But then they got. Well, we were given to the grandparents. Okay.

They did whatever they did. Right. Why they worked. And then my mom and dad got a divorce, and we moved north to Buffalo, New York. Oh, wow. How old were you? I was probably like six or seven, something like that. I was not excited about it at all.

No. Did not want to leave my family, loved it. Right. I had a straight-up hillbilly accent. Fabulous. Fabulous. Oh, wow. And I was terrified to speak.

in front of anybody. Wow. Terrified. I remember, this is a crazy story. When I was, I was pretty avid reader as a kid. Like, I was pretty smart as a kid. Like, I'm a total bookworm. Right.

Apparently, my uncle tells me that there was a time when I was a little baby, literally in a diaper, walking down the middle of the street with a whole bunch of books. Oh, my God. I was moving my grandmother's house. You know, like, that's adorable. But, yeah, I was like, crazy. crazy into books, but... So right from the get-go,

like, you just started out being, like, in love with books from the time you could read. Initially, I was in love with the artwork. Oh, okay. I just, I couldn't believe that somebody drew these things. I knew they weren't photos. Right. You know, somebody drew these things, right?

So I was like, I want to learn how to do that. I want to learn how to draw these things. But I, when we got to Buffalo, I was placed, I had to take a reading test. And this is like the heyday of public education. Right. Like back in the 80s, like everybody was pulling it together. Yeah.

There were programs for everything. Yeah. You had any kind of special talent. There was a place for you to go, right? Right, right. So they make you take these tests, these aptitude tests. And I took this test and apparently I scored very high. And so they put me in this reading class that was advanced, but you would have thought I was an idiot because I didn't speak ever because I was terrified to speak out loud because I knew people were going to laugh at me.

So I had this teacher. I wish I could remember her name because I put her on blast right now. but I can't remember her name. But she was holding up flashcards at one point. And the one she gave me said helicopter. And it was a long word. And I was just like, oh, God, you know, that's never going to come out right. Right.

I never even heard anybody from up north say that word, so I couldn't even pretend to say it right. To fake it. Yeah, yeah. So she said, Jesse, can you tell me what this word is? And I was like, I didn't say anything. She's like, I know you know this word. You know all these words in this pile.

And I was like, you know, I nodded, you know. And she said, just say it. She's like, it's okay. She's safe here. It's all good. And I sit under my breath. Hey, helicopter. And she's like, it's okay.

Say it louder. It's okay. And I was like, hey, helicopter. Everybody laughed, including her. Oh, no. So from that moment on, I was just like, oh, God, oh God, oh God, oh God, oh God. and, you know, got bullied a little bit. Did you?

Yeah, but you know what? To me, like, I know there's an issue with bullying now, but I didn't even see it as bullying then. I saw it just sort of, like, you know. Is how kids are? How kids are, and, like, eventually you're going to have to figure out how to duke it out, whatever it is, you know what I mean? Like, it's so funny.

I got to L.A. this morning. I'm sidetracking a little bit, but I got to L.A. this morning, I was dead tired, but all I could think about was in and not burying. right? Because one of the things I do love about LA, and I'm not a great fan of LA, but like one of the things I do love is in and out. Staying at the Roosevelt and it's right down the street. It is. So as soon as I threw my bags down, I literally went back outside and went to in and out. Get to the parking line. Yeah, you can walk to it. Yeah. Oh yeah. It's a block away. Get to the parking lot and this guy walks past me and he says, Lamont. And only my family or people I grew up with call me Lamont, right? And I turn around, I look at him.

It's kind of looking familiar, but I'm not really sure who we is. I'm like, how do you know my name? He was like, I know you and your whole family. Stacey, Ty, your mom, remember Moselle Street? That's where we lived in Buffalo. Oh. And I was like, yeah. And then he gets a little closer.

And he was like, you don't remember me, man? He goes, I know I still look good. And I was like, it's not going. coming to me. I said, you're kind of in the eyes maybe, but like, it's not coming to me. And then he said his name. And I won't say his name right now, but like, he said his name. And as soon as he said his name, I was like, oh, you, this guy was an asshole. Like, me and him fought constantly when we were kids. But he was talking about it. He was like, he's like, he's remember we used to fight all the time? I was like, yeah, we did fight all the time. I never liked

you. And he was like, he was like, yeah, man, we were just stupid kids. He goes, you know, but I was just standing my son the other day. The fact that we could. We could. fight every single day and then be friends later on that afternoon was always really cool you can't do that anymore you get in a fight with somebody they come back and shoot you or stab you or like you know whatever right but like back then you could get away with a little bit of a fight I digress did he remember it differently than you though because he was like we were friends did you feel like you were friends no no see because I always feel like the whoever was the aggressor

the guy that was the dick thinks it was a good time and I remember all the kids that were like mean to me they're like remember how we used to kick it all the time I was like, no, I remember how you pushed me into a locker and put burning poop on my car. And I'm sure that was a good time for you. That's wrong. But you know what I was saying? Like, the bully always thinks,

oh, we were just fucking around. You know what I mean? And I can't even, I don't even know if he was a bully. I do know that he started with me a lot. Right, right. He just decided he was going to pick on me a lot. And I wasn't so much, I wasn't scared to fight at all because I had four brothers.

Right. So we used to beat each other up like we didn't know each other. Right. But I was, my feelings would get hurt. I know that sounds crazy. but my feelings would get hurt, and that would hurt me way more than anybody hating me or whatever.

Yeah. And I just couldn't believe this guy. That's real. That's real. Right. Like, he, you were on his list, right? It was like every day.

And like, he was just, every time he got a chance to, you know, do something, he was going to do it to me. Right. Anyway. I think it's really interesting. And it's so surreal when you're like walking down the street in Hollywood,

like 11 o'clock in the morning or something, you got a burger. And he was like, let's take a selfie. And I took it. And there we were, like, in the parking lot. Both of us just cheesing to heaven. Right.

And every bit of me was like, I don't feel this way. I don't like this guy. I don't feel this way. I don't like this guy. I don't feel this way about you, man. He's like, man, I'm so proud of you. You really just done the damn thing. You really have, man.

I mean, you come up. For real, for real. Your mom must just be so happy. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been a good thing. He's like, you know, I said, so what are you doing out here in Hollywood? He's like, well, you know, I got to do some stuff. Mm-hmm.

And then she kind of went blank for a little while, and I wanted. to ask him what stuff, but then I thought if he said stuff already, then it's probably not a whole lot of stuff. Right, right. I just won't even ask him on. I was like, well, let me go get this burger, get this day moving. You know, like, I'm going to die, man. Surreal. Yeah. So anyway, so you were saying I was in Buffalo, and like I said, we were in the heyday of public school education. And I got involved in every possible program I could just to get over this whole shy hillbilly thing. Right, right.

One of my teachers in fourth grade, I'll never forget her. Her name was Miss Barney. She used to do, like, she'd read books to us, but through a puppet rabbit. I don't know why she did that way, but we totally got into it. Right. She was the one that always did the plays in the elementary school. And she was doing this play called The Golden Goose. And she came up to me and she said, I think you should be in the play.

So it's like there's an after school program when we do plays. And I was like, I didn't even know what it was. I didn't know what the play was. And when she said, after school program, we did. school, to me, after school, I always met you were in trouble. Right. So I was scared of that already. I was like, my mom will kill me. You know, like, and she's like, no, I can call

your mom and talk to her. I was like, oh God, no, don't call her. You know, like, I'm in trouble. Like, yeah. That's how you think when you're kid, you know? Yeah. And she actually called my mom and told her what was up. And my mom thought it was a good thing for me. So she was like, yeah, you should do it. You should do it. And in the play,

there was a, you know, it's about a golden goose, like a goose like a goose who lays golden eggs. Yeah. I didn't know the story. And at the end, for whatever reason, some prince and princes get together and get married. That's always how it ends. That's always how it ends.

And I was supposed to be the, what they call it, the parson. Oh, okay, yes. Didn't know what a parson was. I was like, what is a parson? She's like, you know, like a priest. Didn't grow up Catholic. So I was like, don't know what that is either. What are you talking about?

In fourth grade, remember. Right. And she was like, a preacher? I was like, oh, I know what that is. So I played the parson as if he was some storming drong, you know, like holy roller. Definitely. Oh, yes, giving Jesus hand praise.

Exactly. Because that's the only way I knew how to play it. Yeah. The entire school thought it was the funniest thing they've ever seen in their lives. And suddenly I was kind of cool in school in fourth grade. So then that's where it all started, I think. I said to myself, I could do this while I'm in school. I never thought of it as a career.

Right. Just said, I can get through school doing this. Right, right. I can totally get through school doing this. I can make friends. I might not get beat up. Right. You know, every other day.

Did you, and also, I mean, coming from, tell me a little bit more about the little town where you grew up. Like, you said it was like less than four figures? Yeah, probably. Was it, I'm just so curious because Virginia. Yeah. You know, I, Californians know so little about the South. I think we all think we have a sense of the South kind of as Americans,

but I don't think it's really. No, because. The South is so different no matter where you go. Like in Virginia, it's definitely southern. Mm-hmm. But it ain't the same kind of southern as in Mississippi or Kentucky or Tennessee or even West Virginia for that for sake. But where I grew up was pretty damn rural. Mountainous?

Mountainous, yep, Blue Ridge Mountains. Real country. Most people didn't have a lot of money. Mm-hmm. My grandfather, a lot of people working in factories there. Virginia was known for a long time for having a lot of furniture manufacturers. Oh, interesting. So there was a lot of furniture factories.

So a lot of my family worked in factories, like furniture factories. My grandfather worked in a paint factory for most of his life. So did my uncles. That finally closed down. And, I mean, just like everywhere in America, now it's really kind of scarce work. Right. Work generally, right? Coal? Was there coal around there?

They were, but none of my family, that was more West. It was more West Virginia. None of my family was involved in mining or anything like that. Like I don't even know of a mine anywhere near where we were. It was mostly factories. I know Dunlop, the tire company, had a big factory there. So it was like a lot of factory workers. Did you go to church when you were a little kid?

Yeah, yeah, we had to. Yeah, like a small, like kind of like a country church? Straight up in the woods, white little church. color purple style you know it was it totally was it's so amazing because um like a lot of times you think about those places as being like like uh of another time or but i remember actually like campaigning for the president like four years ago and visiting these churches and i was like i just walked through a fucking wormhole yeah because it is 1917 in this bitch right now it's still like that yeah i mean right and it is it's still like people still worshiping the same way and there's something idyllic about

that I really, really liked. And there was something simple and humble about it. But there was also a lot of things that just scared the bejesus out of me. Really? Yeah, like, I remember when we were kids, like, they had a basement, right? And basement was always where you went after four hours of praising, or five or six, however long it went. You go to the basement and have chicken dinner, you know, which I always looked forward

to. But in the basement, they also had this, like, it looked like a crypt. And I didn't know that word back then, but now I can describe it as it looked like a crypt and they used to fill it with water and they do baptisms in this little pool and that's where me and my brother were baptized when we were really little kids and it was a little violent yeah a little are they don't do you know like when you're little oh my god I thought the guy was trying to kill me I really didn't think he was trying to kill me I was like there's no part of Jesus that right that wants me to be drowning right now like could you please just can we just do the yeah you know like we just

tap you with the water. Not at all. You had to go down, like all the way in. But the one thing I will say, I mean, like, we can talk about religion all day long, and that's a whole other program. A whole nother program, but one thing I can't say is, like, the one thing that always stuck with me was the music. Like, if there's God anywhere, it's in this music.

It's in how everybody sort of collectively makes these songs, like, so, vivid and so real and so uplifting and inspiring. I was like, there's God in there somewhere. I don't know where it is, who it is, who she is, maybe. And she read this article where this Catholic priest, he died for like 48 minutes and they brought him back

to life. Wow. That's a long time. And when he came back to life, he said that God was a woman and she wasn't white. Oh, fabulous. He didn't say she was black, but he said she wasn't white. That's fabulous. A lot of people have problems. I come bearing good news. So I was just curious because people worship so differently in so many different places,

but because of the southern tradition, and then I imagine the southern rural tradition would have been so specific. And then you go to Buffalo, and that preacher that you brought to Buffalo was like, the guy you knew, but probably to them, like a very distinctive character. I mean, they probably thought I was a way better actor than I was. I was literally just imitating what I knew. But, like, they probably thought I'd, you know, really come up with this character. And I did none of that. Like, I just did exactly what I knew.

Right. And I remember the first, we only did two performances, I think. The first performances, I froze. Like, I couldn't get it out. And to this day, I still know the lines because I was so scared the next day that I made sure that I knew those lines. Right. But, yeah, they probably thought I was an incredible actor, but I wasn't. I was just imitating, like, literally just.

limiting. And that just led to my interest in all kinds of after-school activities, if you will. Like, a lot of them did include plays, but I started getting into visual art. Where I lived in Buffalo, there was this incredible white lady. And I say incredible white lady because we were in the middle of the hood. And there was no reason this woman should have really been there. but she had this big gothic looking house in the middle of the hood that she would open up every Saturday

and anybody who wanted to paint or draw or sculpt could come and paint and draw it was called Malioga I don't know if she's still around I hope she still is I can just say publicly thank you Malioca

because it was like those were the most beautiful Saturdays for me like I would wake up and I would get so excited that I was going to Malioca to paint all my friends thought I was crazy But that's one of my things. Everybody, all my friends always thought I was crazy growing up.

Really? Really? My family did because I was so interested in theater and I read and it was art. I didn't know anyone who it come from. Right. But I was. I was totally interested in everybody thought that was weird. When I was like a teenager, I volunteered, seriously volunteered every year to be an intern.

at the Shakespeare Festival in Buffalo because I was fascinated by Shakespeare. And I would have done anything to be near it. And everyone thought that was weird to. Of course. My friends were like, what? Right. You can spend your whole summer working for free.

For free. For free. Doing Shakespeare. Right. But I didn't care. I didn't care what anybody said I was going to do it no matter what. And that just led to a long rebellion

of me doing whatever the hell I felt like doing when it came to acting or arts. Like my first professional gig was a summer stock production when I was 16 of West Side Story. I'll tell you something embarrassing about West Side Story. When I was an elementary school, I went to this experimental school. It was called the College Learning Laboratory. It was literally an elementary school that was plopped in the middle of a university campus.

Oh, okay. And we basically had run of the campus. So you've got all these little kids who were basically in college, if you will. And we were. We had an incredible music teacher. Her name was Clarita Henderson. She ended up being a mentor of mine. She's since passed away.

But she had this class, and it was called Orph. And I can't remember. It was an acronym, but I don't remember what it stood for. But basically, we all got together, and you just had to create music. Like, she'd give you instruments, like xylophones or whatever you could play. Like, she'd give it drums. And she had an album of the recording of West Side Story. And she played it one day while I was just sitting there.

And I don't know if you ever heard West Side story, but like the way it starts, that orchestration. Yes. I was fascinated by it. Like I just couldn't believe how beautiful that was. I was like, who thought it is? And intense, too. There was like an intensity the way it started.

I didn't know the story. I had no idea what they were singing about. I didn't know. I had no idea. Never seen it. But I knew that music got me. I was like, wow. So this is the embarrassing part.

I left class that day, and I couldn't stop thinking about that album. So I waited until I knew my teacher was going to be in the faculty lounge, and I went back to the classroom, and I stole it. Oh, my God. I stole it. I know. It was bad. It was really, really bad.

But I couldn't help myself. Like, I stole that album. I took it home, and I listened to it constantly. Wow. So cut to, like, I don't know, eight years later, they're doing a summer star production of West Side Story. I know that entire album back and forth. So the audition was an hour away from where we lived in Buffalo in this place called Brockport.

Pretty close to Rochester. And my mom's working over time. She's also going, she went back to school at that point. We barely even had a car or any money to put gas in the car that we actually had. And she certainly wasn't trying to drive me an hour away from home. every day back and forth to be in this play. So she said flat out no you cannot be in this play.

Sorry. I was like well all right and I went to school I asked two of the dancers that were I knew were auditioning I was like how are you getting to Brockport tomorrow? And they're like my mom's driving I was like okay can I ride with you guys I'm like yeah so I went anyway my mom was like you can't go I went anyway and I was happy about it. I was sitting in that backseat

to that car just like get this and I got the part I wanted Wow. I wasn't a great dancer at all, but I didn't matter to me. I was like, I'm doing this. I went out there and made a fool out of myself, and the choreographer came up to me. He said, he's like, you're not a dancer, but boy, can you dance? It's awesome.

You're putting everything you got into it, right? So that I ended up, sure, I have a little bit more whiskey and flowers. Yes, whiskey and flowers. Pow Wow, you really know. know what you're doing. I must say. Yes, dear powwow. You really know what you're doing. Feel free. That just led to just becoming absolutely obsessed with working on stage. Like, absolutely obsessed. How old were you at this point again?

When I did that show, I was 16. 16. So I'm in high school. I was going to perform in arts high school at the time. Got involved in every production I could possibly get involved in in high school and was gunning for New York City. Right. Like ever since I knew that there was programs in New York City that I could possibly get into, like, whether it would be Juilliard or NYU or American music. I didn't want to go to musical school.

I wanted to actually do plays because I was, like I said, obsessed with Shakespeare. Yeah. I auditioned for a whole bunch of schools. I was hoping to get in the Sunni purchase, which is not exactly in New York City, but it is a state school and it was really cheap. Cheap, yeah. Really cheap. I didn't get in.

Oh. But I didn't get into NYU, the most expensive school. Exactly. You didn't get into your safety, your chief safety school. You got into the best school. That's cool. So I remember when I got the acceptance letter, my mom cried because she said, I can't afford to send you there. And I was like, duh, I know. I know. I'm going anyway, though. But you know what's so interesting? Like, and I don't know if this is generational or what, but I remember when I got into, when I got into school, I went to Dartmouth and I was like, I know my parents can't be. I'm not so smart. I mean, I was an apple polisher.

You and I were very similar. I mean, I read it's like a possess of breeder. I mean, like, I would read on the bus until I would miss my stuff and end up at the bus turn around. And the driver would be like, are you okay? Do we need to call your parents? I mean, I was like that. So I understand exactly what you're talking about.

And everybody thought I was weird too. But I was like, of course you can't pay for it. But like, that's a generational thing because I think our generation will be like, but there's, I'll find the money. I'll find the money. I'll borrow the money. I'll work, whatever. But I think the older generation was like, I don't,

have, you know, 12, 15, $20,000. Well, nobody does. Nobody does. Yeah, exactly. There was no, I was like, look, whether it cost two million dollars or a dollar, I don't have either, so I'm going anyway. Right. Exactly.

I'm going anyway. I work my butt off and that's exactly what I did. I work my ass. And schools like that find a way to make it work for you. I mean, they, well, did they? They do if you stand in the Burses office crying. Is that what happened? Sure did.

So tell me, when you, you, you respond, I'm, you know, you accept your, you accept I'm matriculating. Yes. Well, I get there. Oh, whiskey's delicious, by the way. It really is good, right? It's so good. It's making me feel like all kinds of loose right now.

All huggy. Okay. Yeah, you know, I get to NYU. I literally, I went to school. I think I had about like $40. Wow. I got there. How did you, took the bus?

How did you get there? No, one of my classmates at Performing Arts in Buffalo, Laura Heffley, she was going to the same school, and we were going to the same acting. studio. So I rode with her and her parents. How exciting. I know it was really exciting. That's the most exciting. Well, there are other exciting times you were like, but that, I remember that. I remember that year, that day, that getting on campus. And how exciting to have this dream and then it's

coming true. I'll tell you something funny. Like the first day I was in New York, you know, I moved into my dorm room. I met my two roommates who weren't even actors and they just thought I was already weird. They were like, oh, God, you're an actor. And one of my roommates actually said, he's like, oh, she's just going to be a waiter. Oh, that's nice. And I was like, eh, and fuck you. But I walked outside, and I was walking down University Place, right? Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. And I guess I must have just looked like, like, I don't know, like the happiest guy on earth, because these two people walking towards me, young black couple, they saw me, and they both stopped. and the girl who later I found out her name is Angineu Ellis. She's an actor. Oh yeah. That's a lovely lady.

They stopped me and they said, hey, where are you from? I said, Virginia. And they're like, so you're new to New York City. And I was like, yeah, how can you tell? She's like, you're literally walking down the street smiling. I was like, people don't smile here? She's like, no, you're beaming. Like, I was like, what's my first day in New York?

here and have been dreaming about this forever. Totally. Yeah. But I ended up like working my butt off. I mean, I waited tables. I worked at Macy's selling perfume. I bartended. I bar-backed.

I bused tables. I did everything I could possibly do. I worked in the library. But even that wasn't enough. I mean, I was really expensive. Yeah. And I remember one time just standing in the Bursa's office. I was watching all these kids who literally,

had a single check. You know what I mean? They're just walking up there, handing the check over, they're getting the little validation sticker, and moving on. I'm coming up there with all kinds of papers. Right. You know, this form and that form and this, and I still didn't have all the forms. You know what I mean? Like, you're still like, I might not make it.

I might not get that sticker at the end of this line. Right. And I didn't. When I realized I wasn't going to get the sticker and might not be able to go to, not only class, but like may not have to leave the dorm, which is the only place I could live. I just lost it. Like,

just started bawling. Like, I couldn't even help myself. And I was like, pull yourself together. But I couldn't. Every time I said, pull myself together, like I got worse. Yeah.

We got worse. And thank God, this woman, Pat, sitting behind the counter. She was like, sweetheart, come around here. Come around here this way.

Come this way. And I went around the counter. She took me into her little office. She sat me down. She said, I'll make you some tea. I was like, okay. Like, I didn't get it.

Like, I was like, I'm like, do you right now? Is there money in that tea? She made me a cup of tea, and she gave me the tea, and I sitting there drinking the tea. And she's like, she's like, are you calm now? I was like, yeah, I'm calm. I was like, I just, I don't want to go home.

I want to, I want to go school. I want to make it to class. She's like, believe me, I'm going to make sure you get to class. I'm going to make sure you get your sticker today. And she did. Like, she just went through all the red tape for me. And I think even, like, cut some red tape out. A little bit, yeah.

Yeah. And made it work. And then she sent me to the dean who actually gave me, I had a little scholarship, but he actually gave me a bigger one. That's incredible. I remember saying at one point, I literally said this. I was like, they didn't a whole lot of black people here, and certainly not a whole lot of black actors, so you kind of want me here. I remember saying that. Make your case, so.

Make your case so. I was just like, hey. Come on now. You are a private university and the public service. I need some public service right now. Make that case. So, you know, I ended up making it. And I actually left school a semester before I graduated.

Really? Because I got a job. What was the job? It was a tour of Shakespeare with the group called the acting company who normally work out of Juilliard. But because they'd become such a professional company, they were taking actors from all sorts of like NYU, Yale, but they always took graduate actors. I didn't know that at the audition. I had no idea.

So I just went anyway. And I probably had about eight different pieces ready to go, and they kept asking me for more. Wow. I did one piece, I was like, that was great. Do you have anything else? Looked you up, did another one. Wow.

You have anything else? Yeah. It helped that you were so obsessed with Shakespeare. I still am. Yeah. Absolutely still am. I did probably like, six or seven pieces for this dude.

And by the seventh one, I was like, he's either messing with me and this is like the cruelest joke ever or like, that's how they roll. Right, right. Yeah, we want to see what you got.

Yeah, yeah. And later on, he told me, he was like, he was totally picking with me, but he couldn't believe that I kept coming up with stuff. He was like, right. He was like,

every time I said, do you have anything else, you had something else. Right. So he gave me the job, and apparently I was the youngest member of the company ever. Incredible.

I was 21. Wow. No, I'm sorry. When we started, I was 20. Wow. I couldn't even drink. And so you were a semester away from finishing school. Yep.

And so I just gave up. They're awful. So you just, you tapped out. I tapped out, yeah. Which, by the way, it's interesting because you fight so hard for your education, but as an actor, what you really want to do is work. Yeah. And you get this opportunity to do what you love. That's all I was thinking when I got the job.

Like, there was nothing that was going to stop me from doing that job. I was like, I can't believe, A, I got it, and B, I'm going to go around the country. Right. Like, I don't know, $1,200 a week? Oh, yeah. Yeah, $1,200 a week? I was bawling. Right.

Balling. You couldn't tell me anything. You really couldn't tell me anything at the time. I just knew I was the man. And from then on, it was all about just auditioning. Like, I ended up getting an agent, and I was auditioning, like, crazy in New York City. And I wasn't getting a whole lot of work in the city. Like, I started getting, like, regional stuff.

Like, I went to arena stage in D.C. and went to Actors State of Louisville, went to Hartford Stage in Connecticut. But the big dream was like to get on stage in New York City, right? And finally, I auditioned for... Do you remember Tony Randall? Yes. Yes, on a couple?

Yes. Tony Randall had a theater company called the National Actors Theater, and they did Broadway shows. They concentrated on classics. He was doing a double bill, timing of Athens, Shakespeare, and the government inspector by Nikolai Gogol. I auditioned and got in.

It was my first Broadway show, and it was two of them. So I was just like... So that's like Repertory, like you're playing and you're in both shows? They were doing both. Yeah, there was one company, they did both shows. Is that right? Repetory, right? Repetory, you said right?

Okay. I'm because I didn't come up in the theater and everyone's amount, I'm like, did I get that wrong? Yeah, you got it right. You totally got it right. So there I was. Suddenly I was on Broadway and then I thought I'd made it. Like I was really done.

I was like, yep, did it. Like if I keep doing stuff like this, I'm good. Yeah. Like I wasn't really making a whole lot of money, but like you definitely were a part of a community where like they really did look out for each other. I mean, that's one thing about Broadway. Those people look out for each other. I went and did a show on the West End and it's not necessarily like that there.

Like people, it's not like so much a community. Interesting. It wasn't. Like I was rather disappointed. in the West End because it felt cold to me. It felt like just a little remote. Yeah, just a little remote. But the Broadway community was, I mean,

still to this day, like, absolutely inclusive. That's so lovely. It was great. It was great. And then, you know, TV started to happen. Now, remember I told you the beginning that I don't always know everything about everybody?

But what was the biggest Broadway show that you did? Rent. Rent. It was rent. All right. I was like, waiting for you to Rent. And I was like, wait, did I not remember the of course that's, was that, did you get TV before, Ren? Were you doing TV before you did rent? Oh, wow. Yeah, it was. A little bit. I mean, it wasn't like starring in anything, but I was doing guest stars. There was a show called New York on the cover back in the day. Yes, oh, I know it. Yeah, Malik was on the show.

And Michael Di Lorenzo, I did that show like three times. Yeah, and I, Malika was actually saying that like they would bring back because the show, even though it was this big hit, like they didn't have any money. So it would sometimes have people come back and play like a different role. I remember I was in the same season, like maybe like six months later playing somebody completely different. It's ridiculous.

It was the same directed too, so he would have known that like I played that part, a different part before. I mean, as an actor, you're like, I don't know what I'm at work, but still, part of you was like, wait, really? I remember the producer saying, he was like, there's probably like a six-month turn around

on these things. You'd probably come back in about six months. Which is true. Love it. But I did a couple soap operas. I'm on guiding light. Believe it or not, working with the lovely Nia Long when we were both just young-ins. Babies.

Babies. And we had a blast. I love with her. She was so sweet and so easy. She's still that way. Another one who's always the same person every time I see her. And she is like, I don't even know what the deals with Nia, but I feel like every time I see her, I feel like she just like hugged my face.

She's just like the sweet. I've never heard any, look, I wouldn't mess with Nia. Like I wouldn't want to be on her bad side. But like, I've never heard a bad thing come out of her mouth. And I, no, she's just, she's just, and also real though, not fake. Totally real. Like her sweetness is completely genuine. Keeps it real.

She kept a real one day and it was embarrassing. Did she? Oh, let's hear about that. That's one of my, um, self-inflicted wounds. Okay, great. All right. That'll be saying to the show. But yeah, I mean, she's somebody who's like, authentic, right?

Her sweetness is just 100. Totally. So genuine. Yeah. So I got to do TV soap operas, which God bless anybody that can do soap operas for any given length of time. We poo-poo those shows, but that is hard work. Really hard work.

And the ones who are good at it are really, really good at it. Because you don't get like, hey, I was just working at the kinks. Nope. You know what I mean? That was just one. We just, let's shoot the rehearsal. No, that was your take. That was it.

Sorry. You ain't make it. You ain't make it. Yeah, it was I felt, it's funny because somebody asked me, when did you feel like you made it? And I don't know if I feel,

I feel like I made it the first time I got a job. Like now it's all sort of like all good. Gravy, a little bit. Yeah, gravy. That first gig I got, I felt like I made it. Yeah.

When I was touring with that Shakespeare company, the actor company, I was like, I made it. I did it. I totally did it. I showed it. I'm working. I'm working.

I'm working actor. Yeah. It can be done. So tell me about rent. Okay. So, like I said, I was doing a whole lot of regional theater. I had done two Broadway shows, but, you know, they were a couple years before. And I was working in Hartford Stage in Connecticut.

We're doing this play called IHO Uncle. It was a retelling of the Herit Beatier Stowe story of Uncle Tom's, cabin. Okay, thank God. It sounds, I apologize. I just had just enough ride to be an asshole, but I was like, was a little Tyler, a little Tyler Perry twang to it. This was before Tyler Perry was a thing. This is pre-Tiler Perry, I know.

This is pre-Tilperry, and so it was a kind of a modernization of that story of Uncle Tom's Cabin? It was as if all the black characters from Uncle Tom's Cabin decided to tell their version of the story. Oh, interesting. It was interesting to us. It pissed off a whole lot of white folks.

Did it? Yeah, people were mad at us. We had talked back for people just crying and saying why are you trying to make us feel guilty and I was like we're just entertaining you This is just the truth

Right I mean And also like If you You know I mean your feelings are your own By the way Yeah

Yeah like you feel how you want to feel about it If you feel guilty Think about why You might Be guilty Yeah You know Or you know

I mean It's interesting Like it's like Because guilt All modern guilt Whatever Whatever it is White guilt

Or like Wealth guilt, whatever it is. I mean, it serves a specific purpose, right? But, like, everybody who's alive now, who's, you know, not a racist, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. Why would you own any of that? Yeah, it's not.

It's not your fault. You're not that person, and I don't think you have to own the crimes of your ancestors. I mean, it's good to be aware, so we don't make the same mistakes again. It's also really cool when you speak up to. Yeah, exactly. It's all right. It's also really cool. When you say, hey, that shit's fucked up.

And it's not just black people who feel like it's fucked up. But the fact of the matter is, no matter what's been going on in such a crazy time right now, such a crazy time, an interesting time and an important time, because we're talking about these things. When you look at the protests for, you know, Ferguson or in New York or even like with the SAE, there's just as many white people as black people in those protests, and probably more. Astonishingly young people. Yes. Yeah.

Young people. It's almost like young people have been waiting for something to, to be. meaningful to coalesce around. Absolutely. I mean, that energy is there, right? It really is. It kind of blows my mind, actually, on a regular basis. Like, it blows my mind. And I'm up there in Vancouver, you know, where there's none of us. There's, like, three brown people. God bless Canada. I know. They're adorable.

And, you know, I'm hearing all these stories about what's going on in the States and, like, the protests and all stuff. And it's literally just blowing my mind. Like, me and Candace would sit around and talk about it for hours. Like, literally for hours. Anyway, back to the point. I was doing a play I ain't your uncle in Hartford and one there's a casting director in New York City

named Bernie Telsing who's now like a big deal back then he was a big deal to me but like he was kind of a medium-sized cast director and he had his own little theater company but he called me and he said hey I want you to audition for this musical because I know you can sing

and I was like what is it? He was like well it's called Rent and we're not sure what it is yet because we're going to do a workshop of it, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay. You know I'm in Hartford, right? He's like, yeah, I know. I cast you, remember?

And I was like, oh, right. He cast me in that show. And he was like, just, you know, take the train out one day and just sing for the director and the writer. And I think you'll dig it. So they sent me a tape of a piece of music that Jonathan Larson, who wrote the whole thing, was on. and it didn't sound like anything to me really

it kind of sounded a little bit like Kermit I remember telling you all that it's like Kermit the Frog but I didn't understand the song and it wasn't even a song that I would be singing in the show right and they had a couple pages of dialogue that I wasn't on so I was like what do I do

so I didn't know what to do so I ended up coming in with another castmate from my angel this guy Byron Utley both wrote in to audition and I just I was so tired and kind of didn't know what I was auditioning for that I was kind of mad that I came all the way from Connecticut to New York

to sing for this guy. I liked the director, his name for Michael Grife, and I wanted to work with him. I'd seen him do a great piece of Shakespeare at the public, the public theater for all you guys that don't know in New York City. And I was glad to meet him, but I was just kind of bummed out. I was like, I don't even know what this is. I'm just auditioning for random.

this. So I went in there, I sang Amazing Grace, and then I left. Wow. And then was that your decision? Like, I prepared this piece of something. You just hear me sing, whatever. I'm going to sing something. Yeah, because they wanted me to sing what was on the tape, but I was like, I don't understand it. I'm not even singing that song. Why would I? Why would I prepare it? Yeah. No, I'm saying Amazing Grace. So I went and sang Amazing Grace. And I left, got back on the train. That's incredible. And we went back to go to do our show that night. So by the time I got to the show that night, half hour for the show, Byron, who we were sharing a dressing room with, he kind of turned to me in one point.

He said, did you hear anything about that show, Rent? And I had, it called me and said, you got the role. Based on the one song. Based on that song. Yeah, I only went on a different once. And I was scared to say that because I wasn't sure if Byron got in, you know, but Byron did too. Oh, wow.

So he was like, are you going to do it? I was like, I don't even know what it is. Like, I don't know if I'm going to do it. Right. And then, you know, the end of that show happened, and every actor will tell you, like, when a show ends, you're like, oh, God, I'm never going to work again. Ever. This is it. And, you know, even though this was like a $400 a week job.

It's a cat food and cardboard for the rest of my life. Thank you. So I was like, I probably should take this job. I don't have anything else to do. Right. And, you know, best decision I ever made. You get to New York to do, and you're workshopping the play. imagine because this you were this is the originating cast yes it's like the

is that the right terminology original cast original cast so um and I remember because I interviewed Andrew Reynolds who was part of the original cast for Book of Mormon and he was saying like he'd always wanted to get a show where he was funny oh he's hilarious in the play so fucking amazing I mean I've seen it like four times I mean and by the way buying four tickets to see Book of Mormon that's a house payment it really is that's a house payment um and I I I'd only think I was like around in a meaning of a way when you know when I mean I don't think I knew about rent until it was like already a big deal and all you guys were already I had already graduated

yeah um but you're you know a big part of being a part of an original cast for Broadway play is that you're forming a big you're instrumental in forming the play even if it's written even if the libretto is done even everything's done yeah you're workshopping it you're figuring out what works it's being kind of rewritten or at least shaped around that first cast Definitely. I mean, look, and ours was crazy because ours wasn't done. Right. It wasn't. I mean, clearly it wasn't done. We were literally making it up at times. Who was everybody? And who was everybody in the original cast? Was you? Me, Adina Mansell.

Taye. Te digs. Daphne Mugin Vega. Adam Pascal. Anthony Rapp. Wilson Jermaine Heredia. Freddie Walker. And who else would you know? You've already done so much better than I ever could have done, even with the help of the internet. And most of those guys were in the movie, except for Freddie. Right.

And Daphne. Right. Right. And so the entire cast. Yeah. During the movie. But that turned out to be like one of the best expanses I ever had. How long did you guys workshop it before you started doing previews?

We workshopped it for, I don't know, probably close to six weeks, I think. And right before our, I mean, the famous story is that right before our first actual preview performance, Jonathan died of an aortic aneurysm. It was the strangest time, like really, really strange, because that day we'd all eaten at this diner around the corner from East Forth Street, where the theater was. And he'd at that diner all the time. And like, he was just feeling like really... He's so young.

He was really young. He was feeling horrible. He said, he kept saying that his chest hurt. I was like, is it from what you ate? He's like, it may be. How old was he? Jonathan was, I don't want to lie. I'm not exactly sure.

He wasn't 20s. He was 30s. But I'm not exactly sure. But young. But I mean, like the idea of like having chest been when you're young, of course it's Hartburn. How could it be anything but heartburn? Exactly.

Yeah. And I remember him saying like, because I just don't feel right. And I was like, feel right as a need to lie down. Don't feel right? He was like, yeah. So he literally. laid down in the aisle of the theater. I remember Anthony and Adam were on stage

seeing like the big finale number. And eventually Jonathan got up and he went out in the hallway because he was really hurting. And he calmed down after like an hour or so and he said, I just probably tired. And he had this big interview with the New York Times at night, which is a big deal for him

because suddenly he was in the New York Times. And he also met Stephen. Sonheim, who was his mentor, not mentor, but like his idol. And apparently he went home that night, put on the tea cuddle and make some tea and never had the tea. Wow. Yeah. And he went to the doctor and apparently they could have found what the issue was. Right.

Nobody thought to check. No, because he's so young. Yeah. And like I said, it's when you're. look, if you're 60 or 70, you have chest pains, then you go to the hospital. When you're in your 30s, you just like, it's heartburn or... I need some tombs. I need some tombs.

You know, I mean, I'm a hypochondriac, so I remember when I had chest pain, I was like, I'm dying. And the doctor's like, you have heartburn. And you need some tums. But, you know, yes. I've been that guy that's had heartburn and, like, had a panic attack. Oh, yeah. Oh, everything.

Everything I have. Everything I have is like terminal cancer. Stub my toes, terminal cancer. I'm like the black female Jerry Seinfeld. You actually had the dropsy. No, yes, I did the dropsy. Crup.

Ricketts. I've had all that shit. All that shit. Everything. Some vintage consumption. I've had some vintage shit. What is consumption? I don't know.

I don't know what it is, but I know I have it. I mean, I'm going to ask Uncle Google when we're done. But like, what is consumption? All of it. Drops. The dropsy. This is like an unexplained illness. No.

That bitch dropped. He got the dropsy. We got to bring that back. We really knew. What's wrong? That bitch got the drops. You know, you miss work. I had the dropsie.

I had the dropsie. Couldn't get up. Just kept falling down. So you do, when you do this play, you take this play. You take this play. We're going to bring it back, though. Hashtag the drop seat. The dropsy.

Hashtag the drop seat. Oh, man, that's awesome. Like, I also, that's what you have at the end of a long night of drinking, which I had the drops. I had the drops. I ain't making it. No, I can't make it going to work because I had the drop seat. Wait a minute. So you, you, I guess like you're in the midst of what feels like something very special.

Yeah. And I wonder if there was a moment when you saw, because then also the writer of your play dies. I mean, you know, everything good and bad is happening at the same time. I'll tell you, when we kind of collectively knew, we, the night after Jonathan died, which was to be our first performance, we'd been in the theater all day because obviously we didn't know where else to go. Right.

And we hadn't been rehearsing or anything. We weren't even sure if we were even going to do how we were going to finish the show. Right. It wasn't done. Right. Jonathan was gone. So the guy that was creating it and putting it all together for us

wasn't there anymore. So what are we going to do? So his parents were coming in. And they had been planning to come in anyway for the opening of his play. Oh my God. His parents were coming in. And one of the things his dad said,

Pop Larsson, he said, he said, I think you should do the show anyway. I think you should do it anyway. And I do it as a memorial for Jonathan. And so we did it like real, well, we tried to do it. Real, I don't know, Bankland Hall style, where, you know, like you put a table there and line it up, you put some waters and little napads and stuff

like you're doing convention centers and things, where we were just going to read through it or sing through it, if you will. And somewhere in the middle of that, first of all, the theater was packed, packed way past capacity. Like the fire department came, they realized what was going on, and they'd let us. be. People were sitting in the aisles.

Like, all of Jonathan's friends were there, like many of his family that could be there were there. Every familiar face we'd ever seen was in that theater. And we're all sitting at these tables, and we realized that you know, one of the songs came up. It was right in the middle of the show

called La Vibuam, where we end up at this restaurant. All of us are sitting at one big table and we start acting a fool in the restaurant, dancing all over the table. And we realized we were at a table and like we're just sitting there and was like why don't we just do the show so anthony who sings the lead in the song just jumped up on the table and we were like oh we're doing this for real yeah and he started kicking the no pads and the water out of the way and he was just like

nah let's just do the show yeah and the next thing you know we'd gone backstage miced up and we were doing the show for real for real by the end of the show that wasn't a dry eye on the house on a dry eye on a stage or backstage is kind of phenomenal. Like that's when the show cemented itself. And like I said, all the pieces weren't there because Jonathan wasn't there to put those pieces in there. We figured out of the way to put them in there that night.

And that's what the show became. And we did that for however long we did it on off Broadway and then we moved it to Broadway. How long was that? We probably did downtown probably six months, I want to say. and then in Broadway forever

A couple years At least a couple Well I was there For a year and a half Maybe Then I went off to do my first lead In a TV show What was it

Allymobile? No No It wasn't It wasn't It was a A television show for Fox Called 413 Hope Street

Oh okay It was about A youth center That I played An AIDS counselor who worked with all these young kids who were suffering from AIDS and it was produced by Damon

Wands. It was like real serious drama and got straight canceled. I mean after we did like, I think it was on the air for like maybe seven or eight episodes. It was so funny. It's one of the funniest things ever because we were filming I'll never forget this day.

We were filming a scene with almost everybody that was in the show. And in the show We had Richard Roundtree, the original shaft. Wow. Sherry Headley, coming to America fame. Kelly Colfield, who was in Living Color, and a bunch of kids, myself and a bunch of kids. And we were doing this big, huge scene where almost all of us were in the scene, right? And it was taken forever.

And I remember at one point, we were doing a turnaround, and when this executive showed up on set in a suit, we'd never seen before. And all day long, I'd been asking, where's Damon? Where's Damon? Damon's not here. I need to talk to Damon. And Damon was M.I.A. And I kept asking his assistant. I was like, what happened to Damon? She was like, I don't know.

Damon hasn't talked to me all day. Oh, wow. Interesting. So this executive shows up. And he, you know, when we're standing there about to film the rest of the scene, he says, I need to make an announcement. So everybody gathers around. He says, he goes, I'm sorry to be the one to inform you that your show has been

taken off the sketch. And I was like, what does that mean? What do you mean taking off the schedule? Are we going to be put on some other schedule? He was like, no, that's a nice way of saying that your show has actually been canceled. I was like, oh, damn. I was like, so are we going to finish this scene? No, I said, are we going to finish this episode?

He's like, you don't have to finish this scene. I was like, well, damn. Wow. We were shooting in the Valley, right? And like I said, God bless all L.A. folks, but I don't like L.A. I don't. I don't like living here. Your truth is your own. I just don't.

And I remember it was Halloween. And there was next door to the studio, somebody had taken an old house and turned into a haunted house. It was called Bob and Dave Spooky House. Because we used to joke all the time, Bob and Dave Spooky House. And there were all these little ghosts running around, and people were screaming and hollering. and I look at the hills and they were on fire. Like totally on fire.

Oh, wow. And I'm hearing the screams and the fire and I'm like, something's telling me to just leave L.A. all together. Those are not good omens. No, left the next day. That was my first big TV gig. But, thank God

L.A. was still calling because then I got a call to do Allie McBeill and X-Files. Right. And those things led to like, Those things literally led to Law & Order. Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, I remember specifically, like, what a phenomenon you were on Allie McBeal. Like, I mean, the work was the work, and you're always great, but, like, I just remember, like, you were this phenomenon.

And I think part of it was because there weren't a lot of interracial couples on television at the time. No, you know what else was a big deal then, which shocked me, and I loved it. To David E. Kelly's credit, he decided he was just going to have them be a couple and not ever talk about it. talk about it. Yeah, because you know what, by the way, when couples are dating and racially, they're not fucking talking about it. Exactly. Exactly. And people had a big problem with it. There was a big article in the, in New York Times about the fact that we didn't talk about race. And is that an issue? Right. You know, like, are they not doing, they're doing country to service by not dealing with this anymore? I'm like, really? We're a TV show. Exactly. And we're just the show we are.

Exactly. Exactly. But. That was probably one of the better times I've ever had. Like, I mean, it literally did lead to one of the best jobs I ever had. How long did you do on order? Nine and a half seasons. That's incredible. Yeah. You know what's so interesting about that specifically is that most actors would murder to do five seasons,

to do a show, just a single show that went five seasons. You know what I mean? Like that's like all of our, that's like jackpot for anybody, right? But not only you do essentially almost 10 seasons on a series, but that show, that was not even the entire run of that series. No. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, that's crazy.

I came in the middle. Yeah. Yeah. I remember where it was like Orbach and I'll never remember all the guys that were on that show. It started with Chris Noth and. Jerry Orbach? No. No.

Jerry Orbach came later. It was Paul Sorvino and Chris Noth. Okay. Yes. With Michael Moriarty and Stephen Hill. And then came Sam Water. Mm-hmm. Oba came in for Sorvino.

Yep. Him and Chris were partners. Mm-hmm. And then Chris left. Ben Brack came in to be Jerry's partner. And when Ben left, I came. Mm-hmm. And then you did almost 10 years.

That's incredible. Yeah, almost 10 years. Yeah, it was, look, I mean, you know, Mama got a house. Right? No, I mean, I'm not even mad at you. I mean, it's just, it's, um, it's, um, it's, so rare for any of us to get a gig that that has that kind of longevity. And, you know, human beings are dissatisfied.

Yeah. And actors are supremely dissatisfied. Mm-hmm. And a lot of times, you know, you can come onto something like that and it can feel like a gilded cage. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think for anybody, you know, you think, like, I've been playing the same character

forever and, like, am I growing? But the other side of that is you have this great gig. on a great show and it enables, it empowers you to make every other artistic choice in your life. Totally. Completely freely, without concern of whether it pays or what it means, I can make art indiscriminately,

and I don't have to worry about whether, you know what I mean? Like this, and that's what's exciting about a gig like that. I mean, look, to tell the truth, like, I could never really afford no. None of us can. But I said no a lot anyway.

but suddenly I could afford no. I could be like, no, I don't want to do that. Or you could say yes to something that you wouldn't have said yes to previously because I need to wait for a gig that's going to pay the bills. You know what I mean? Exactly, exactly.

I mean, look, I first of all got to work with some of the best actors there are. Some of the best, not only the regular cast, but all those New York actors that just came rolling through there every week. It was almost like a theater company that show because everybody. worked on that thing. Totally. Everybody. And it was one of those shows where

you really had to have your shit together. Like there was no way I was showing up at work with Jerry Orbach and he pays to Merkison and Sam Waterson and not knowing what the hell I was doing or not knowing what I was talking about. Right. There was no way you had to pull yourself together. And not only that, I never saw these guys complain about being tired or, you know, being overworked and treated badly. So I was like, well, no way I'm going to be complaining about anything like I'm just going to buckle down and do this. Yeah. And luckily like it stayed like that pretty much the entire time I was there. I mean look when Jerry Orbach left us. Heartbreaking. Yeah. It was. And to me a lot of me said the show's over. Or maybe the show's over for me. Right. Right.

It really is because like dad was my dude. That was my boy. And you know, we play with so many different other partners and I enjoyed it. I had a good time and like I got to be lead detective, if you will, which didn't feel any different by the way. Right, right. It just didn't. I was like, I'm still green. I mean, Detective Green, not naive. Not green. But it just came a point where like you were saying earlier, like it did start to feel like I killed the cage. It started to feel like, well, what else can I do now? Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it, I think it's, it's not the central condom for most actors, because most actors never get that opportunity.

Most actors never get a gilded cage, you know what I mean? But I, but I, it's, um, it is a unique, it's a unique problem to solve for yourself. And what's exciting is you love New York. You got to work in New York. You got to live in New York. I mean, it's like every actor's dream, like a, like a, not just a paying gig, but like a great paying gig on a hit show and get to live at home. And I got to buy an apartment.

Yeah, you know, which is like, I mean, I occasionally fantasized about buying an apartment in New York and I cannot afford it, by the way. Yes, you can. You got like A jobs. No, all of my jobs is like, I'm squirreling that shit away for the day everybody wakes them and goes, this, bitch. But, you know, I mean, like, it's, so that I, I, what I guess what I was going to say and ask is like, for you, especially just hearing how much you love New York, it was like just this perfect storm. You know, like a job that you loved and that was in a town that you loved. Yeah. And so for you, it probably didn't feel like a gilded cage for a long time.

No, not at all. No, no, no, no. I mean, it was probably, I mean, the reason it was really nine and a half and not ten seasons is because it really was like the middle of that tenth. I was just like, nope, done. Well, I've done procedural. I know. You're like, then there's a semen and a residue of the blood and the footprint.

Well, you did start to feel like after a while that you. you were retracing a lot of your steps. Yeah, or that you're starting to rely on tricks. You know what I mean? Like as an actor, like, it's nice to walk into a scene and know what you want to do and how you want to do it. But the flip side of that is you're like, oh, I know this is going to go. You know what I mean?

And then you feel like you're not pushing yourself. Yeah. And I really wanted to get back on stage. And it just wasn't presenting itself with the schedule that I had. Right. You can't know one hour you knows. I'm like, yeah. And then once I left the show, I was suddenly, I got to do shaking. again.

Yeah. Was that the very first thing that you did? No, not the very first thing. What was the first thing that I did? Probably slept in. I did sleep for a little while. I went on vacation.

Yeah. But no, I didn't get to do a play for a while, actually. I ended up doing another TV series in South Africa. Which one? It was called a philanthropist. Oh. Cancel. Oh, but I know that.

With James Purefoy? Yes, because I remember the, remember the pilot script. Okay. I remember the script. Were you reading for it? I mean, I read a lot. I read a lot of stuff that year.

I don't think I actually went in for. I think I just read it. I think I was like, I can't go to South Africa. Oh, God, it was so much fun. I bet it was amazing. I think I had like something else that was already doing. I was like, I could do it if it shot here, but I couldn't do it going on so I didn't go in for it.

But was that amazing? Oh, my God. Well, first of all, like, I loved the script. I thought the script was really interesting. I thought it was really good. I had been offered something else, but it shot here in L.A. And it was like, L.A. or Cape Town? Well, just the opportunity for Cape Town, regardless of whether the show goes, right?

Yeah. But it turned out to be a little, I don't know, I think there was some discrepancies between the executive producers, the guys who were creating the show and the network. Right. Because things never seemed to go right, like, between the two. Like, there was always some contention, and we were always some. sort of caught in the middle, like, what's going on? Like, are we going to make it?

You know, like, we obviously didn't make it. But those guys went off to do Downton Abbey. Right. So I'm like, damn! Man! Like, damn! I mean, but you know, like, and you've been doing this for long enough, it's like, you can make a great pilot that doesn't go

and you can make a shitty pilot that does go, and there's some part of it that's like alchemy. You know what I mean? You just have to kind of show up and do your best work and then... And that's all we do it. Chill. Look, I, I had, we had so much time off in South Africa. I got to go to safaris, like hang out with actual people.

Yeah, like be there. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, met a nice little travel folk there and, like, had a really good time. I mean, that's the best part about this whole gig. It's like, we just, and I end up just going places. Get these opportunities. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that's a magical part of it. And probably, you know, the scope of it is so much bigger than what you imagine when you were like, I just hope I get to be paid to be a Shakespearean actor. Beyond. Right. It's awesome. I mean, it's awesome.

Can't be mad about it at all. You were on a hit show right now that was like a hit right out of the gate. I know, right? Yeah. And I wonder if you expected that when you took it. No. I don't know what I expected when I took this

because I said to myself I wasn't going to play I didn't really have any desire to play a detective again. You've done that. You've done that. I did it for a minute. I'm good with that. Right. No more interrogations.

None of that stuff. I want to play somebody's dad or whatever. You know, like something simple and interesting. Yeah. And I got a little bit of both. You know, I got a nice little family and a detective gig. But like the thing that kind of sold me on the whole project was I met up with the executive producers Greg Berlante and Andrew Christberg in New York City. And they were so geeked out about

this thing. Like they were literally jumping around in their seats. They're like puppies that needed to pee. They were so good. And I was like, they're so excited. I need to figure out a way to get excited about this. They were so excited about it. Right. I mean, they saw me in it way more than I did. And so I had to go. Were you jaded at this point? I wasn't jaded. It was more like, I don't know if this is for me. Like, why would I decide to go to Vancouver, of all places? Right.

To do this. Right. Why this? Right. And I have a friend, Capone, who is your basic comic book guy. Mm-hmm. And Capone, when I told him about it, he was like, you'd be a fool not to do this. He goes, it's a whole world that you just haven't met yet.

Yeah. And you should meet these people. Yeah. Because they're very, very loyal fans. Mm-hmm. Very loyal. So one thing that to another Before you know what I was just like

All right I'll do it But in my mind I only committed to the pilot Of course on paper I committed to the series In my mind You committed to seven years on the show In my mind I said

Hey you know It's just a pilot You never know I might not go anywhere But by the way For all of us You're always You never think anything's gonna go past the pilot

Anyway I mean you know you're hoping But you're like This is just a pilot It's just a pilot And then we started doing the pilot And we were working with the director, David Nutter, who's incredible. Like, anybody that knows Game of Thrones, if you watch the Red Wedding, David Nutter did that episode.

Incredible. He's incredible. Even I knew I read the books. Yeah. And I knew the Red Wedder was coming. And I still freaked out. Like, I remember, I was like, why do I feel this way? I knew this was about to happen.

I remember stopping the TV and just running around the room. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But while we're doing, first of all, like, meeting the cast, particularly Grant Guston. Like, I was so impressed that they cast that kid because, like, you know, Grant's a wispy little kid. Yeah. He's not a little kid.

He'd be mad at me if I hear, if you heard me say that. He's leant. He's adorable. He doesn't necessarily, like, play superhero. He doesn't look like a superhero. He looks like a young kid. And everything he did, to me was like, that's where you want to start.

Right. That's where you want to start with a superhero. Like you want to be able to progress from that. That's how you get a series. You know, if you start as a superhero, then I don't know where we're going with this. Right, yeah. But if he starts with that kid,

yeah. We got a series here. Sweet, Ernest. Yeah. Exactly. And he, I mean, he just kept nailing everything. And I was like, this kid is awesome. Wow.

And I was like, I think I could actually get into this. I could totally get into this. And so far, I'm into it. It's, it, I mean, it launched beautifully, and it's worked beautifully. And what's really interesting is that where, and, and I'm, you know, I'm, I'm going to compare the shows just because they're, they're juxtaposed constantly. Sure. Because Arrow launched the Flash.

I mean, Arrow was the, was like the flagship DC show. Yeah. And we met, we met Grant, we met Barry Allen on Arrow. On Arrow, yeah. Arrow is very dark You know, it's a very kind of like Emotionally Frot show And I

And so it has its appeal in that way It's very, you know, it's almost dark night You know what I mean? It's really like, it's the modern iteration of that That kind of sensibility. The Flash is much bouncier. Yeah. You know what I mean?

But not in a negative way because what you guys have And you're able to do with the temple of the show Is do emotion and comedy in like kind of equal parts. Thank God. I mean, because I don't know how dark I'd be able to go. Like, I don't know how I'd be able to sustain dark. Like, I just don't know.

But the emotional workplace so beautifully because it's not all you guys are doing. Yeah. So when you have those moments, I'm going back through season one right now, and there's like a really sweet moment where you and when Joe and Barry are having pizza at the end of an episode. I know I said you weren't my father, but you, you know, you taught me how to ride a bike and you taught me how to shave and, you know. He took me to school. Yeah. And, you know, made sure I did my homework.

And that moment plays beautifully authentic. It's not compromised by the comedy on the show at all. It's really nice. I mean, it's really balanced. And so you get a lot of things to do. You get to be action guy and dad guy. Well, one of the funny things is, like, I don't have a CGI double. Like, I actually have to run when somebody else runs.

Like, I actually have to run. I say that to Grant all the time. I was like, you know, Graham will be like, I'm tired. I'm like, you know, I give him his props because he should be tired. He works really, really hard. Right. But I'm like, yeah, but your double ran that one. And your stunt double did that.

Right. I actually had to Chase Wentworth. Right. It was me and Wentworth out there sweating it out. All analog of shit, right? Exactly. No ones and zeros. Analog, I love it.

Some analog acting. It's, I mean, it's also exciting because I wonder if when you took the show, you thought, well, the nice thing about taking this show is they're trying to build a DC universe. Yes. On television. I mean, I didn't actually think about that that much because I didn't even know what that meant. Because you weren't a comic book guy. Yeah. I didn't know what that meant.

But like, you know, when I started talking to comic book people, then I realized how kind of a big deal it was. And I was like, oh, okay, so this could kind of set up some other things for me. Yeah. In the same way that Law & Order set up things for me. Yeah. This could set up some other things for me. And, you know, hopefully the next chapter is me just doing what I like. Yeah.

Doing what I want to do. Absolutely. God. I mean, I'm just starting to get there. Like, I mean, I'm doing a little short. I think I worry about it. Yes. I wrote a little piece.

It's been stuck in my head since I was a little kid back in the Blue Ridge Mountains. My aunt Emily, she told this story. And it has nothing to do with my short, but I never forget the story. Where we lived in the Blue Ridge Mountains, our mailman would come kind of late. I don't know why I was late, but it was usually all in the start. Y'all up in the holler. You know, right? It was almost dark when he would show up. And he was an expert whistler. Uh-huh.

So we'd hear him coming before we saw him, because he would, like, bounce off the mountains and whatnot. So you'd hear him whistling. Oh, that's lovely. So my aunt made up this crazy story about how he was actually a killer. And he loved killing children. Oh, my God. And if we didn't get into bed, when we heard that whistle, you know, he was going to come and get us. And it was totally stored just to make us go to bed. But we believed. Well, yeah. You know what I mean? And it never, I'd never did.

The idea of the letter carrier coming to steal children never left me, right? Oh, wow, yeah. So I'd written this soliloquy, like I told you, I'm obsessed with Shakespeare. Yeah. It was about the letter carrier. And I showed it to one of my castmates, Rick Cosnet. And he's like, this is interesting. He's like, what are you going to do with it?

And I was like, I don't know, but I wrote some songs, too, that kind of go with that story. I just don't know what that story is going to be. In my mind, it's going to be on stage somewhere, right? and he was like, would you ever consider doing this as a film? And I was like, I never thought of that, but maybe. Yeah. So I sat down and I put the songs together with the poem, and I said, how can this be a story, a short story, if you will,

and how can we film it? And one thing led to another, and now we got a Kickstarter campaign and we're trying to actually do it. So awesome. I'll make sure to put a link up because that's really exciting. Awesome. That'd be cool. Yeah, of course. cool that you know

people get into this business for a variety of reasons and um you know some because they want to make art and something comes they want to make money and some because they have a desire to be famous yeah desire to be famous or they have a deep and fillable hole inside them that will never be committed with this business one never ever filled no no nothing there is nothing that will fill your heart um but i always get excited when i hear stuff like this because I don't know that I knew why I got in when I got another than I really, I knew I couldn't do anything else. But I get so excited when I hear people going like, I have some art in my head and now I'm going to go make it. Because, you know, some of this work is business or commerce and some of this work is art.

But when you get a gig that you love and then that gig empowers you to make all the other beautiful shit that's been floating around inside you, that's like so cool. It's incredible. Just have some beautiful shit floating around inside you. Yeah. You don't even have anything you want to get out, you know? Yeah. You know, it really is. And like, to start working with like-minded people, like, it's the nicest thing in the world to, like, have somebody validate any ideas you have.

You know what I mean? Like, have somebody say, you know, that's worthwhile. Like, I really want to see what that could be. Right. I really want to help you figure out what that could be. Yeah. It's a nice way to work. I mean, like, like, you know now.

I come from the theater. That's how we're used to working. And you get involved in television and film and it doesn't necessarily go that route. No, no. So when you get with a group of people that actually want to work that way and keep things sort of moving that way, you're gold. Yeah, yeah. Right before we do self-inflicted wounds, I always ask this question just because I love it so much, but I never know how people feel about it.

And because you are a theater person and you weren't a comic book person, how many, did you, did I see you a Comic Con last summer? Did you guys go to the... Yeah, you did. And I probably saw you at, like, the ET party on Saturday night. That would have been where I think it was. I think I did. You did a big DC universe. You did, like, a big DC universe event.

That was, like, separate from the con, like, in the theater. You screened everything, right? Yeah. How was that for you? The first couple hours, I was terrified. Because I didn't know what the hell was going on. So intense. People were just screaming.

Like, people were talking to me like they knew me for years. Right, right. And I was like, what? But, you know, by the second day, I was like, this has got to be the most inclusive group of people I've ever met. I mean, like, everybody fits in there. Anybody who wants to be there is there and is celebrated for whatever reason. I saw this guy in the lobby of the hotel where we were staying in,

and he was, you know, doing a little cosplay, I guess. And, like, I don't even know what he was trying to be. I really don't. But it was straight up homemade, like, you know, construction papers slash, you know, milk boxes. And he looked crazy. But he was feeling himself, right? And everybody was taking photos to him

because I was like, you know what? He did the damn thing. He put this little outfit together and he came to Comic God. Yes. Or the dude who's got like the dude who, I'm not being white, but you know, the dude who maybe isn't in superhero shape,

we got the little tiny superhero t-shirt on, half of them is in the t-shirt, half of is it out. I came mad. There's just love. Like that place is just love. I loved it. I loved every minute of it.

Like it was just, I mean, it's overwhelming. That's a lot of people. It's a lot of people. And everywhere we went, like, it was a little screaming, pushy, grabby. But like, you know, nobody was throwing rocks. It was nice. It was really, really cool. And to be, to launch a show like that and a place like that, I never imagined.

Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, again, you aren't even on the air at this point. I know. That's what's crazy about. It's not even, you don't even necessarily know what the show is. Nope. And they don't know what the show is either.

And to be honest, I hadn't even seen it then. Hadn't even seen the pilot. Did you guys screen an entire episode or just a bit? We screened the whole pilot twice. Did people lose their shit? They totally lost their shit. Of course they did. People are freaking out.

That's the other thing that's so exciting about Comic-Con is watching, because so much of what we do, we do on set. It's in isolation, it's with our peers. And then if you watch your show, you watch it at home. maybe with your family, maybe with your friends, but probably not. I don't need to put my friends and family through it. Honestment of watching something I've done with me. But then you go into a room full of people who love what you do and you're watching it along with them.

And I mean, maybe part of it is ego, but let's push that out. It's just you realize that like in so much as most of what we do is a little self-serving because we really love it and it's pretty enjoyable. You see that like it touches people and it really makes them happy. and you get to experience it while they're experiencing it. Well, that's the thing. Like, I learned about our fans from Law and Order, you know, piecemeal. This is pre-social media, too, pretty much.

Yeah, exactly. You know, the UPS guy would come out, oh, my God, I love your show. I love you, you, you're awesome, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. Tell Jerry, say hello. You know, now, like, there's whole forums, like, conventions for the fans. Yeah. And they all show up to tell you how they feel.

Yeah. You know, and some of them, like, actually may not even like the way we're going with it, but they're still there to see it. Right. Well, they're engaged. Right. Exactly. You know, Jeff John said something really interesting when, I guess, our pilot leaked online.

Oh, okay. And it used to, like, a lot of kids were, you know, criticizing, you know, the suit or, you know, or Barry being so young and, like, not looking like a superhero per se. and he was like, but these kids are going to watch every episode so they can criticize it. Absolutely. They're like, I hate that show.

And then they'd be like, but I can't talk to you guys, I've got to watch it. You know what I mean? Yeah, like every single week, you know? Yeah, and they're really passionate, which is, that's a new thing. I mean, in some ways, that's a very new thing

and it's exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I feel good about it. I feel really, really good about it. I'm happy, happy to be doing it. Good.

I hope I remain happy for a long. long time so we can see it through. Right, right. Well, what's exciting, like I said, is that you're in a unique place in your life now where you have this great gig and then you can also make art. Yeah. And I think that's, like, the best place to be. Yeah.

Hopefully it's not crappy art. Well, you know what? Then you just make another one. I know what I mean? I'm like, Picasso did, Picasso had a long blue period. He made a lot of sketches. That's true. You know what I mean?

It was like, your shit wasn't perfect. I'm like, Picasso all kinds of. He had naples. Hopkins and matchbooks and shit. Fuck you. I had to drive a couple of sketches, and then the next one's going to be a masterpiece. You're absolutely right.

Art is subjective. And, you know, and it has to come out, right? It doesn't always come out perfectly. It's time for self-inflicted moves. Okay. I'm trying to think, I don't want to do the one I mentioned before. You don't? No, I don't.

Okay. It's not necessarily self-inflicted. Okay. It was embarrassing. And I was embarrassed by myself. But it wasn't self-inflicted. Okay. I'm trying to think of something.

I got one. Okay. I was telling you about my first Broadway gig, which was Time of Athens, Shakespeare. In that production, there were, not only was our director, English, but there was a lot of English actors from, you know, Radha, R.S.C., like, real Shakespeare actors, you know, and quotations.

And I did do air quotes, just so you all know. We, it was my birthday. January 18th, and we had two shows that day. and all the English cats were really good like I wasn't much of a drinker all the English cats were really good at like sort of going out after the show getting hammered

and like still showing up the next day looking fresh or freshish you know and kind of doing the damn thing and because it was my birthday I was trying to hang hard right so do the first show first show is probably over probably like five PM or something like that. In between shows, they have a cake and champagne for me.

And I don't even like champagne, but I was like, yay, champagne. It's my birthday. So I drank a little too much, to be honest, because when I was on stage, I was a little giggly. And giggly ain't good in Shakespeare, but it just ain't. But I drank a little bit too much champagne, but I was like, I could handle it, though. I'm trying to be like, you know, the big boys. So we get through the second show. And then some of our... castmates decided they were going to take me out that night for dinner and drinks for my birthday. And it was also the end of the show that we were doing. So, like, we were starting the next show, then the following week.

So it was kind of like a, you know, a rap party slash my birthday thing. Right. So we go to our lead actor, Brian Bedford. He has an apartment in the West Village. We go to his apartment, and he's got, like, what you have, like, this array of drinks and beautiful brown liquors and things like that, right? Now, what I didn't remember was that I hadn't eaten all day. The only thing I had was a piece of cake from my birthday. But I was all wrapped up in the sport of it all,

and we started drinking scotch. And I was so psyched that these English cats were like, come drink with us. You know, like, and they're toasting me. It's like, happy birthday, mate, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'm drinking. And they're like, let's go to the, there's a place around the corn that we want to go eat at.

It was called the White Horse Tavern. I was like, ah, let's go eat. At this point, I'm probably really loopy, just not really sure what's going on. We get to the White Horse Tavern, and I remember just, I was sitting at the table, and they were singing happy birthday to me, and they'd put, like, a candle in, like, a bottle,

and they were singing, like, happy birthday over a wine bottle. There was no cake or anything. It was just, like, a wine bottle. And we'd ordered all this food, and when the food actually landed in front of me I remember it was a burger, a huge heap of fries, I threw up all over the table and all over everybody and everything on the table

and couldn't stop myself, like it just kept coming and coming. And there was this girl who was one of the ushers at the theater She was really sweet girl She always flirted with me But I didn't really know her Like we didn't talk that much really But she was always really sweet to me And she was there

And she literally dragged me from the table Took me into the bathroom And made me throw up more She was like just keep going You need to get it out You just need to get it out And I've thrown up like three times In my life up into that point

And never from drinking Like from sickness or whatever So I'm terrified I don't know what the hell's going out with me and like, I'm sick in the bathroom. So you can imagine. And somehow she got me, it scared me a little bit because she knew where I lived. So she got me in a taxi and she sent me home.

I remember, I hung out the door of the taxi while it was still going. Oh, my God. Growing up all the way home. Oh, no. I had no idea how I got home. And I remember the next morning, one of my bus, who was in the show with me, he called to see if I was all right.

And once he realized I was all right, he was like, dude, you threw up all over everything. Like, everything. He's like, happy birthday to you, huh? And I was like, yeah, man, that was embarrassing. And to this day, every time I see that dude, he's like, do you remember that? I'm shut up.

Like, I can't even go to the White House Tavern anymore. Oh, no. Every time I see it, I get a little upset. Like, I'm just like, oh. That's probably my work. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday. By the way, it is your birthday.

It was. Yeah, it was your birthday. You can pick if you want to. First of all, I don't know who it was who said this. I have a friend who's a comedian, and he's also said it, but it's like every great drinking story starts with, and I didn't eat any dinner. It's always the beginning of the end. Always for all of us.

Like, I didn't eat any dinner, and then. I just forgot. I mean, first of all, we were doing two plays. We're doing, too. We don't eat before. Usually, you guys don't eat before you go on stage. Yeah, we do. Do you? I don't like, we don't eat certain things.

I mean, maybe some dancers. I don't know. Maybe some dancers don't eat that much. But, like, yeah, we eat a lot. Okay, good. Yeah. It was your birthday. You were entitled to be how ever you liked.

And probably the British guys didn't know that they had a bit of a delicate award. They had no idea. They had no idea. And, like, you know, all I could think was like, wait, all I've had today was sugar and champagne. Mm-hmm, mm-mm. Not a base. Nope. Not a base at all. You can't start drinking scotch from that. You just can't do that.

Oh, horrible. Jesse, thank you for doing my show. I'm so glad to her. This is really awesome. You should do this all the time with everybody. That's my plan. Can I send some folks your way? Yes, absolutely.

Send me anybody you have. This is a good. It's cool. You're awesome. Thank you. Yay. That was Jesse L. Martin. So lovely, so charming.

And there is no apolloja for this episode. There's no apolloja because it was just a great conversation, wonderful in every way. And if I was going to apologize, it would be for being such a giggly, happy, bouncy bunny through the entire episode. Back to my old hyper-enthusiastic self. But it was just, it was such a delight to have him in the bunker and to stare at his face and listen to him and tell stories for such a long time. He's a lovely guy and really a wonderful talent. And the Flash was a great show. And I encourage you to watch it.

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