Girl on Guy with Aisha Tyler - girl on guy 188: alison rosen

Episode Date: June 10, 2015

join alison rosen of the carolla show and alison rosen is your new best friend and aisha as they talk pursuit, independence, love, mixed signals, cross purposes, bad plays, upheaval and rolling with the punches. plus alison is not that girl. anymore. girl on guy is over you. really. 

Hey everyone, it's time for my annual fan appreciation event at Comic-Con 2015. Here's how to win tickets. At 9 a.m. East Coast time, 6 a.m. Pacific on Friday, June 12th. Send me an email at contest at girlon guy.net. That's contest at girlon guy.net. And put in the subject line, hashtag boosh. the pound sign, B-O-O-S-H. Send that in.

The first 100 people will win tickets to meet me at Comic-Con in San Diego. The weekend of July 10th, it'll be Saturday, July 11th. Saturday, July 11th is the event. We do not provide travel. We do not provide hotel rooms. But if you can get yourself to San Diego, you can come meet me. It's a super fun day. We give out T-shirts and stickers and books and sign posters,

and we take pictures of everybody. Last year we handed out my beer, Woot's stout, that will probably happen again in some fashion. It's an amazing day where not only do you guys get to meet me, but you get to meet other Girl on Guy fanatics, and it is so much fun for me to tell you guys how amazing you are. And the first 25 people that respond will get tickets to see a live taping of Girl on Guy that same day. So, once again, if you want to win tickets to the annual fan appreciation event on July 11th, Saturday, July 11th in San Diego, here's what you do. You wake up super early the morning of Friday, June 12th. 9 a.m. East Coast,

6am Pacific. Send me an email at contest at girlon guy.net. That's contest at girlon guy.net with the subject line hashtag boosh and the first 100 people will win tickets and the top 25 of those, the first 25 of those will win tickets to see a live recording of girl and guy. It's always an amazing experience. I love getting to meet my fans and I would love meet you this year. So get ready. Friday, June 12th, 9 a.m. East Coast, 6 a.m. Pacific, not 8.59 or 5.59. 9am East Coast, 6 a.m. Pacific. Get upset your alarms. Send me an email and I'll see you in San Diego. This episode of Girl and Guy is brought to you by Squarespace. Start building your website today at Squarespace.com. Enter offer code girl at checkout to get 10% off. Squarespace. Build it beautiful.

This is Girl on Guy. Hey everybody, welcome to Girl on Guy 188. Welcome to the show. So many, did I say, I said this last week. I want to say it again, so many exciting things happening in the Girl and Guy universe, including upcoming appearances at E3. Monday, June 15th is the Ubisoft press conference at E3. It will be live to the galaxy at 3 p.m.

West Coast time. There's a 245 pre-show. You can watch the entire thing live and streaming at YouTube. com slash Ubisoft. I'm hosting once again, this is my fourth year doing it. Either these people have impeccable taste or they've all gone tone deaf and blind and just keep your hiring me because I can't think of anybody better. But that being said, I will be there again.

I'm super excited. I love the UB team and I can't wait to unveil all the new games, all the new IP, and developments in previously revealed IP, including a brand-new Rainbow Six game. ha so that's going to be super cool again that starts at 245 for the pre-show and 3 p.m. on Monday 6.15 live from e3 on the west coast so that'll be 3 o'clock western 6 p.m. East Coast time check that out that's going to be so much fun and then right after that just right after that will be Comic-Con and if you want to be a part of Comic-Con festivities the 12th Friday the 12th of June is your opportunity to enter the fan appreciation event contest for tickets

Comic Con. As you know, we don't provide travel. We don't provide plane tickets. We don't provide hotel. There is no per diem. I will not give you a lap dance. But if you win tickets to this event, you will get to meet me and I will give you a big bag of free shit, stickers, posters, t-shirts, hugs, pictures with me. Last year, we passed out my Wootzouttout beer. This year there may or may not be another special edition beer poured on tap for all of my Girl and Guy Army fans. So it's a really wonderful event, and it's one of a kind. Only 100 people win tickets to this thing. So what you do is you get up very early on Friday the 12th of June. It's a little earlier this year because Comic-Con is earlier.

9 a.m. East Coast time, 6 a.m. West Coast time. The first 100 people to write me with the subject line, hashtag Bouch. That's the pound sign B-O-O-S-H. The first 100 people will win tickets to our fan appreciation event this year at Comic-Con. And the first 25 of those people that respond will also get tickets to a live taping of the Girl and Guy podcast at Comic-Con with a very special guest, whom shall be revealed in the coming days and weeks. But this is always a wonderful experience for me

because I get to tell you guys how much I love you and how much you mean to me and what a joy it is to make this show for you every week. So you get to come and I get to tell you how awesome you are because you're always writing me letters telling me how awesome I am and that's a bunch of bullshit. But you, my friend, are excellent. So Friday the 12th of June is your opportunity to win tickets.

9 a.m. East Coast time. 6.m. Pacific time. Write that letter. The people that get up at 601, they win. 603. you're already shit out of luck. People writing me days later, and I feel like they didn't hear the instructions. Friday, 612, June 12th, 9 Eastern, 6 Pacific is your opportunity to win tickets for the event which will occur at Comic-Con on Saturday, July 11th. It's going to be

really, really good this year. Every year we do it bigger and better, so make sure to be a part of that. This episode of Girl on Guy is brought to you by Squarespace. And, um, You know, I have a pretty heavy duty online presence. I have some people who have built things for me. As you know, I tell this story all the time. I actually built my first website all by myself. And it was fun because it was a new thing, and I didn't have money at the time to pay somebody.

But it was exhausting. And honestly, that website didn't turn out very well. It was kind of a shit show. I had to go back and pay somebody else to do it later. But you, my friend, will not have this problem. You will not have this problem because you can use the Squarespace platform. The sites that you design with Squarespace look professional. professionally designed, regardless of your skill level. You need no coding experience whatsoever.

The tools are intuitive and easy to use, and they have state-of-the-art technology powering your site at all times to ensure security and stability every single day. Squarespace is trusted by millions of people and some of the most respected brands in the world, and it starts at just $8 a month and you get a free domain name if you sign up for one year. Here's what you do. You start your free trial site today with no credit card required at squarespace.com, and when you decide to sign up for Squarespace, use the offer code girl, that's GIRL, to get 10% off your first purchase. It's awesome. You must do this. It's a simple, beautiful, powerful website that looks professionally designed, regardless of your background, regardless of your skill level, intuitive, easy to use tools to create your website, and everything is in the palm of your hands. The sites will scale no matter what device someone's looking at your website on, if it's a laptop or an iPad or a tiny Android phone from prehistoric

times, your website will always look beautiful. They have 24-7 online support and like I said, a free domain if you get Squarespace for the year. So sign up for Squarespace by going to Squarespace.com. Use the offer code girl to get 10% off your first purchase and show your support for Girl and Guy. I want to thank Squarespace for their ongoing support of Girl and Guy. So support them. When you support Squarespace, you're supporting Girl and Guy. Squarespace, build it beautiful. All right, this episode of Girl and Guy is with a very lovely lady, who I am a big fan of, Alison Rosen.

And she has a podcast called Alison Rosen is your new best friend, but you may know her best as the newsgirl from the Adam Carolla show, which is probably the biggest podcast in the world. And she was on that show until just recently. She left it very early in 2015. and if you don't know enough about how that happened, it was rather abrupt. You'll hear in this conversation that I utter a disclaimer very early on. I am friends with Adam Carolla, who was one of my very first guests on my show.

I was the very first guest on his show. We have had a mutually supportive and very friendly relationship. I've sat in for him when he's been out doing a movie and we're friendly. So this is not an episode where we spend a lot of time bashing Adam or bashing how Allison's departure from the show went down. We just speak frankly about it. about her feelings about what she's doing now. And she's a really lovely lady. And I got to tell you something, if you listen to Adam's show and you didn't quite have a sense of how insanely smart Allison is, how verbally acute and lovely and sweet and divulgent she is, well, you're going to

love this conversation. I loved it. I just, I always liked Allison, but I have a massive crush on her now, and she's just a delight. And you were going to love, love, love this very wide-ranging conversation, which veers all over the map and is hilarious. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Girl on Guy 188 with Allison Rosen of the podcast. Alison Rosen is your new best friend, and it is coming at you straight out of the Girl on Guy Newsroom and right into your face. We're going to start the show. Allison Rosen, welcome to my show. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and I love where you record. Thank you. It is super cool. It's like a lady man cave. It is absolutely Lady Man Cave and like kind of has like some feminine qualities and then a lot of like hypermasculine qualities for better for words. I think that's probably a description of me. I love it though. I was telling Jerry. My assistant Jerry. Yes. Who my love. I was telling Jerry when I first got here that I am now recording my podcast out of my dining room which I dubbed dining room studios. Yes absolutely. But whenever I see a really cool podcast space like this I think I wonder if at a certain point because I did Jimmy Pardo's podcast. Yeah and they've got that little opposite. Are they still over there?

They are like in the valley upstairs. Yes. Yes, they are. It's very corporate that space, though. It's like a little... It kind of... It's not as cool as this. Well, I love them.

But yeah, I was like, oh, they have like an office in the valley. Right. Yeah, totally. Right. But apparently at the beginning, Jimmy did it out of his living room and then made the change.

And at that point, I was still totally in the honeymoon phase of having it at home, which I still kind of am. And I was like, I can't imagine getting to that point where I'd want to move it out of my house. Right.

Because it's so convenient. It's cozy and you can kind of make people at home in a... different way. I mean, one thing that's different from podcasting in like a radio space versus here, and it's probably why everybody talks so quietly, is that they're sitting like one foot away from me speaking to me directly. So they kind of forget they're talking into a mic, which usually how they get them to divulge their secrets. That is, they just feel like they're talking to me. Good. I mean, that was one of the first things that I noticed that was a difference. So for people

who don't know, I used to work on the Adam Carolla show for four years. And you also used to record your own show there in that studio. Exactly. I did my own show. Allison knows an engineer best friend. the one that I'm now doing in my dining room there. And I did notice right away when I started doing it out of my dining room, it did seem like people were a little more relaxed. Because I think I always, I'm happy to say I always got really good interviews. And I never felt like it was a problem when I was in the studio. And there's, of course, benefits to a professional studio.

So many benefits that my listeners are hyper aware of because my show never sounds fucking professional. But yes. I think your show sounds good. But I did notice that it did seem like they, relaxed, or no, no, what I was going to say, I think that when you are in a professional studio, you're always aware that you're doing a show.

You don't lapse into like, we're just having a conversation. No, and there's just something. So that's setting specifically, even though it's like, you know, to quote Mark Maren's old phrase, it's not trust real radio. It feels like you're at a radio station. It feels like you're on a radio show. And I remember, and there's like engineers in the other room

through a window and you come see that. An on-air light and everything. So it feels very much like you're doing radio. And I think that one thing that I remember doing, like both on your show and then I think when I sat and for Adam was like speaking in my morning radio voice. Like I was projecting morning radio, ha ha, funny. You know, I mean, I wasn't that bad, but you know, like it was just a different,

just different. And in here, it's, I'm very aware, and I think over time have been aware of the fact that people just feel like they're having a conversation with you, which is why they don't always speak directly into the microphone and then, you know, lean back and bob away and, you know, because I just think they're hanging out. Do you ever worry, just to show that I'm always thinking about all angles of the, of the pros and minuses, though, do you ever worry that? then that won't lead to enough energy.

Although, as a listener of your podcast, it's not ever been a problem on your podcast, but that's something I think about. So on my Monday show, it's a one-on-one interview, and then I have a Thursday show where there's a group of us, and my husband is now one of the new people on the show. It is fun, but he is sort of naturally quiet speaking and not a lot of energy. So I've been trying to get him to boost his energy. And one of the ways I've done that is instead of having him sit near me, I have him sit across the table from me.

So he has to project. Exactly. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's smart. I mean, we're sitting very, very close to each other, which for me has been good because I want the intimacy and I can always make the show louder.

We're actually holding hands. We are. We might make out. But so, yes, I can see how in a low energy. And I've had a couple of people who I was like, you know, you, like, I just had David Benioff on and he's like a really, he's like a low talker. He really is. And he said he was a low talker, right at the beginning of the show.

And he's like, this is all you're going to get out of me. It still is fine. But yeah, I have never worried about it. Just if someone is an intimate personality, I just kind of, you were just talking about how it's hard to adjust the mic mid-show. But if I realize I'm fucking myself, I'll just push the mic like into their face. Like in a very like, now I'm a sound engineer while you're talking kind of way and I'll just like slide it. But I found that's the best way to do it as opposed to trying to write a note or like when the engineer or producers in the corner like, then you're just talking to show. Yeah.

And they immediately realize that like they're doing something wrong. I mean, no one ever does anything wrong on a show, but, you know, like, they need to adjust. That's so interesting. I'm trying to think if I've ever been like, I don't know. I mean, I didn't pick this space because it was like a great, I mean, it's not great for sound. It's not terrible. It's not very bouncy, but it's not like I was like, this is going to be the perfect recording space. I just like rented a place and put a table in it.

Right. You know, well, it works well. You go to like Earwolf and they've got like, you know, egg crate shit on the walls. Yes. You know, and they're like so professional. And I, like, this is all the effort I can make, really. Although all of that, the sound baffling and the sound baffling and the. acoustic tiles universally pretty fugly.

Let me just say. That stuff is not attractive. This is the difference in someone who's worked in real radio and me, which is I was like, egg crate shit. And she was like, sound baffling and acoustic tiles. I had no idea. Those are the words. No, I think those are the words, though. Those, you use the real words, and I use the made up word. Well, people know you probably. You came to, I'm just, we'll talk a little bit about Krola, because I want to start at the beginning, but you came to, you didn't do the radio show. You started at the podcast. Right. But I, but I, did television before. So I was a journalist that my career path is journalist for many, many years,

lived in... You're too young for it to be many, many years, though, Allison. Oh, thank you. I need to start editing myself. 26 year old or whatever you are. Right, right. 26 plus a number of years. I think I look younger than I am. You do look. You look very young. 78. You almost said it then you didn't. Well, actually, what I was about, you saw what my mouth was about to say. I'm actually not quite there yet. You're about to be there. Yes. I'm just going to say it. Yeah. Do it. I'm 39 right now. Excite.

But next month I'll be 40. That's exciting. That's what's the most exciting age. By the way, 40 is always an age that everybody's feeling very anxious about. I really, it's hitting me pretty hard. Sadly, I'm past that number now. And what I can say is that I was very anxious about 40 and then stoked. Because you have this anxiety about somehow things like ending or changing or and then you're past 40 and you just stop giving a fuck about everything.

I look forward to that. It's a great feeling. Even hearing that makes me feel defeated. Like, do I really want to be at that age where I'm. given up on everything? No, it's not the same. Giving up is not the same as not giving a fuck. They're two different things. I know. Giving up is like sitting in the house and your PJs with food stains on your shirt. That's where I am. Not giving a fuck is walking is like doing shots at two o'clock in the afternoon and giving everybody the finger. They're totally different things. Yeah.

And I think they're not giving a fuck thing. You just realize like, you know, in a, hopefully in a positive way, like my time on the planet is finite. What the fuck am I waiting for? Let's go. That has definitely, you know what I mean? You don't on me. Yeah. I've definitely, but it's been a succession of birthdays where I wake up the morning of my birthday and I think, I'm too old to care about this. I'm too old to be insecure. It's not important. It's not meaningful.

Right. Yeah. And that really is dawning on me lately that sort of, there's not that much time left. I mean, not like the clock is ticking that fast. But I mean, do I want to have spent a significant chunk of my years on this earth worried about something that no one else besides me is thinking about? No one cares about. It's a waste of your energy. Really the time.

But I think one of the reasons 40s hitting me so hard. is, and I actually wanted to ask you about this, is that I'm trying to get pregnant. Oh. And my husband and I are going through the whole infertility treatments and all of that stuff. And for the longest time, I'd heard that, you know, oh, your emotions are going to be all over the place. Even my doctor said when there was a couple different fertility drugs, she's like, this might make you feel like you're crazy. It's going to feel like a roller coaster. I was like, oh, wonderful.

Right, exactly. But it really didn't affect me that way until we moved. from IUI to IVF. And the last cycle didn't go well. And all of a sudden, it's like all the emotion that I hadn't felt before that I'd held at bay is just, it's like I'm in a different mood every few minutes. And I think having the birthday looming is just underlining all of it. But I know that you, I was actually just looking at this morning.

I was reading articles about you talking about your own experience with infertility. Yeah. You just made the decision to not. I just said, fuck it. It was a part of my general fucking agenda. I never wanted kids. Let me just say for the record, I don't talk about this a lot on this show,

but I have talked about other shows that I do, that I never wanted kids. Like, even after being married for many, many years, I just wasn't interested. I was really focused on work and I wasn't just, I just wasn't interested in kids. And then we got to a point where we're like, hey, you know, if we're going to,

I finally had some stability in my life. I had a job. I felt like if I was ever going to do it, I could do it now. I never, also that's the problem with this business is I never felt stable. I never felt like, oh, we've got an income we can rely on for 20 years of another human being's life. So like this madness to do this.

We can barely pay our own bills. Some years were flush. And then other years, I'm like, let's burn this fucker down and get the insurance money. So for a long time, I was just like, it's just too crazy. And then we had some stability. And then we started to look at it. And we were like, well, if we're ever going to do, we have to do it now because it's going to be too late soon.

And we started to get into it. It's weird when that feeling hits before emotionally you are prepared for it. Yes. Well, it was like, you know, I would hear about. the biological clock ticking, and I'm like, mine's not doing that. I never felt that. I never felt it. Right. No, I never was like, I've got to have a baby now. Never. But it, so maybe our decision was more logical than anything, because it wasn't like we both had this intense urge, but we're like, well, we love each other. If we want to do it, let's do it now. And then we started

to get into it. I went through a couple rounds of the shots and stuff like that, which I didn't love. For IVF? Is that we were going to do that? And then we were going to save up embryos. We didn't know what the fuck we were doing. We were like, let's just get some eggs. See how it goes. But what I realized was, I just didn't have the. appetite. You know, I didn't want a kid so badly that I had the appetite to do the thing over and over and over and over again. It's a real commitment that affects you physically and emotionally. Physically, emotionally. And financially. Oh my God. Financially. And we had some very close friends who will remain unnamed that we love deeply that

we're going through. Oh, fuck this. I think. Okay. Hurray. So what were you talking about? Oh, you're talking about the fact that it takes this toll on you. physically, emotionally, we're just saying financially. And I also just didn't have an appetite for that. I just wasn't, and I have the resources for it. So that seems like a little like, well, you didn't have the money to spend. But I just didn't feel the desire for parenthood so intensely that I was willing to also go through what could have been a year's long process.

Right. And to scratch out. And I think if it's this dream you have, that you're dying, dying, dying to have a baby and you'll do anything, or even you'll do anything to a point, then it's worthwhile. but for me, I just like, we're going to spend four years obsessing about this and then still not have a kid at the end of it? Right.

And I'll have jacked at my body and dropped $200,000. And, you know, I have friends who did it and they really wanted a baby and they have a baby now, even though it was like fucking awful what they went through. That's the thing that I'm realizing is that I think this process, you feel pretty terrible until all of a sudden you get pregnant. Right.

Or you don't get pregnant. Right. And I don't know how you deal with that. See, but I feel like you have to also, you know, and I want to be as positive as possible because I have friends who've gone through and they had a baby. But I think you have to also stipulate to the probability, or at least the high possibility that it might not go your way. I know. Well, and that's kind of where we're at. At least I'm having to take that in. There have been a couple times where I've walked out of there

saying to my husband, you know, in tears or almost in tears, like we might do all this and we might not get a baby. It never even occurred to me. So much of this. I don't know what. I was busy thinking about other things. Right. Yeah, totally. So much of this just never occurred to me. It never occurred to me, to go back to the beginning. It never occurred to me. It was going to be hard to get pregnant. I just thought, because you spend so much of your life trying not to get pregnant. Alison Rosen, you spend your whole fucking life trying not to get pregnant. I used to take pregnancy tests when there was really no way I could get pregnant. I was so afraid of getting pregnant. And in retrospect, I probably never could have gotten pregnant. So I thought you just

don't use protection anymore and boom, you're pregnant. Totally. So that's not how it works at all. Unless you're listening teens, in which case, maybe that is how it works. But by the way, I think that is how it works if you're 15. Yes. Like when you're like insanely fertile, you know, and I mean, because I think that's the thing. I mean, by the time you're like fucking regularly and like in a mature way,

when you're 20s and 30s, you know what I mean? Like you can't get, you know, it's like harder to get pregnant than when you're like 15 and everybody's humping like crazy and your boyfriend thinks that he can't, you know, we get you pregnant if he comes inside you but he doesn't love you or whatever fucking shit, teen here just think, you know. Well, we didn't kiss while we were fucking, so it doesn't count. Yeah. Doesn't count. Yeah, you know. Right.

But you do. It's so, I mean, you just, you articulated it perfectly. There's like this dissonance between spending 20 years of your adult life trying not to have a baby and then thinking all it takes is one broken condom because that's all you've all ever thought. Right. Exactly. And then to discover that it's so much more complicated and there's so much, you know, even just stuff like which day I ovulate on, I was wrong about that. Right. And you probably think you know your. body perfectly. Right. I feel like this is happening today and your doctor's like, you have gas.

Right. So, yeah, there's just been so much of this that I feel like I'm, I just, so many aspects of it never quite dawned on me, including the one that you go through all this and it might not go your way. Right. Right. I mean, I think that's a hard thing to say out loud, but I think that it is actually like, for me it was the test.

It was the litmus test. It was like, how will I feel if we go through all of this and we still scratch out? Right. And I thought, I don't want to do it. If I was like, no, no, it's worth it. Every minute of it's worth it because I'm dying to have a baby and I'll do anything. I have a baby. And if we do it and it doesn't work, we'll go. But I just like, I don't want it that badly. And, you know, and I, it's interesting, I think, not just as a woman, as a person to say that because despite how modern a culture we are, there is still this like homogenous kind of like, of like, of course you want kids. Everybody wants kids. Right. You know, and, you know, like men, so many men, a lot of times they're men, they're foreign men, but men will always ask you, like, you know, at my age, like, you know, do you not have kids? Although, say how long you've been married and I'll say 20 years and you don't have kids?

I'm like, nope. And that's so weird to everybody, no matter the gender, no matter the age, like, what the fuck. But I didn't, I just didn't want them. You know what I mean? I didn't want them. And then when I did want them, I was like, I didn't want them that badly. So I think it's fair to say, I just wasn't that interested in it, but it's very discomforting to tell for people to hear.

just don't get why you wouldn't want to have children. They can't relate to that, I guess. What's wrong with you? Well, I think, but you said it's, you know, for people, but I think more, it more has to do with, well, do you agree it more has to do with how we regard women in this society? Well, I don't think it's just our society. I think it's like culture generally. And I think actually in Western society is so, I mean, we're not perfect.

But, I mean, it's not like we live in, like, a sub-Saharan country where, like, you're nothing without seven babies. You know what I mean? Like, I remember when I was 18, I was stayed in Africa, and my host mother was 19. She had four kids. And she literally looked at me like I was not even like an alien. Like I was a dog by the side of the road about to die. That's how sad she looked for me. You know what I mean? When I was like, I don't have kids, she was like, oh, God. She's like, I'll start a fun for you. Yeah. I'm going to start a little African fun. I'm going to take some goat collections up.

And we were out. I'm not being racist. We lived out in a country where they had goats. So she was like, I'm going to take up a goat collection for it because you're going to die alone. You miserable, barren, you know, sad piece of a human being. So I do think, though, that we have the, this, there is this still weird, like, I was just in London, and their culture is pretty similar to ours. And, like, you just, the number of kind of, like, you know, the 34-year-old preppy women with, like, loafers and their pants rolled up pushing like a, a whole bunch of Kate Middle times. Yeah, like a thousand, you know, euro or a thousand pound pram around and having brunch. You know what I mean? I mean, like, for me, unfortunately, that looks super barfey. But maybe it is

fortunate because I'm like, I'm not doing it. Like, you know, if you kind of, But there is that like, you know, we're still such a culture like oriented around that, like lifestyle and parties and registries. Well, and that I think is that's kind of the biggest surprise about this whole IVF trying to get pregnant process, is that it turns you into one of those people who suddenly is at risk of judging your self-worth as a human being and as a woman and as a wife. I speak for me personally on whether I can make this baby or not

and I hate that And you've never been that person before My husband I was just talking to him recently About like I don't like who I'm becoming right now And not globally But it's just it's drawing It's making me needy

It's making me clingy And I don't even know if it's my own emotions Or emotions based on the hormones that I'm on It's just yeah I don't like who I'm becoming right now There's also so So there's something else that's buried in there And I had a really good girlfriend who kind of was talking about what she was going through when she really wanted to get married and have a kid.

And she's like a genius. Like one of the smartest people I know. She's this brilliant writer, like, incredibly well traveled. And she was talking about like being like desperate to have kids. And I was like, that doesn't even fit with my picture of you. Like I just don't even see that you would have that aspect in your personality. But there's something secondary that maybe it's linked to being a woman. But I think it's more just about the thing we all feel, which is the tick of time.

Do you know what I mean? Male or female, like the relentless onward motion of time, which is, you know, I have these things I want to do, and I realize that time is finite and I may not get to do them. And that illustrates vividly the fact that I'm going to die. Do you know what I mean? And it hadn't even occurred to me until right now. Kids are another way to have immortality. They are the number one way to have immortality. I mean, so for everybody, I think, male and female, but maybe a little bit more.

for women, your children are your legacy, right? For men, it tends to be that your work is your legacy. And I know that interestingly enough for me, when I was really, really clear that I had kids, my work became not in a sad way, because my work was always important to me. It became more important to me to be aggressive in pursuing my dreams on the work front because I thought, well, this is my legacy and I'm going to make sure that I accomplish as much of it as possible. You know, men don't always have to make that decision, like between their work legacy and their personal legacy. No, I think it's like,

and they keep going and the, I don't even think they would have, this is a gross generalization. That being said, we're just full of them today. I don't know that men even have that thing of not making, of work not being their priority,

unless they're in like a dead end kind of job. And I don't think, you know, for the many, many, many men listening, I don't think that, that we're saying that like men aren't emotionally nuanced.

They definitely are. I just don't think culturally they've ever had to make that decision. Do you know what I mean? It's always been, you know, guys can work and have a family, but women have to choose, choose between work and family. That's just, and, and I think that's changing, obviously, because more

men are staying home and it's more of a tradeoff now. Like, you know, and that's, again, like, what's happened, what's been good about, like, let's say feminism or women's liberation is it's liberated event as well to choose what they want. You know, maybe there are a lot of guys who don't want to be like little, like, suited automaton's going to an office 80 hours a week. Yeah. Like, you know, drinking themselves to death. In a monkey suit. That's what they would. In a monkey suit. Guys who don't want that always to call their suit, it's a monkey suit. You know, they're pulling at their their collar. But, you know, I think there are a lot of men and that's, I think, also, like, maybe in, like, the tech industry where it's really forward thinking where, like, men are getting,

like, you know, maternity leave and things like that. We're guys like, why does my wife get to be the one who gets to see the baby, like, get, you know, walk first and get its first tooth and how a lot of awesome fucking milestones that I don't get to see because I'm in some idiotic meeting talking to people that I hate. And I think there are a lot of men for whom that wasn't like, oh, well, my wife wants me to say how I'm going to, but no, I'm stoked to, yeah. to take this time to be with this person that I made. So those things are all kind of revolutionary. I think they're freeing up men and women.

But I think, again, it still feels like more of a choice for a guy than it does for a woman, you know, if you're going to have kids. And I think, you know, my way out of some of the negative feelings that I've been feeling. Again, it's brand new that all of a sudden. But you're a human being, though, your shit's complex. People are complex. Right. You know, I feel shit. Why are I feeling this way?

This is nuts. Yeah. Right. And some of the way out of that has been to just throw myself more into work. So I'm thankful I have that because that at Lynn and I at least remind myself, oh, my whole life is not this thing that I'm trying to do over here. It's so much of this other stuff and it's easy to lose focus. And you've been generating value, right? You've been like generating things of value for a very long time.

Thank you. You know, you have been. You know, I mean, it's interesting. It's like this is so, I mean, I just think this also it's where you are in your age except if you take kids out of the equation, just like this is a time in your life where you start to really assess. because you're like, okay, well, like, you know, you're 20s and 30s, you're just building and you're kind of a little bit more open to, like, being aggressive about trying different things. And then around this age, you're like, okay, well, like, who am I? And, like, what am I going to do for the next 20 years of my life?

Right. And that can just bring up millions of feelings, like, lots of feelings, all of the feelings, which I deal with by drinking. But, you know, so I, but I do think that, like, you can't, you shouldn't negate or like, the kid things should never negate, like, all the wonderful things you've accomplished and the things you've built. and like your complex mind, which it tends to do. You know what I mean? Which is then it's just about like,

is my vagina working or not? Right, right. And by the way, vaginas are good for lots of things. Yeah. Babies. Right, that's not where the problem is. It's a little higher. Evidently.

Vigina is great. Vigina's working perfectly. Thank you. Humming along. But so anyway, to go back to all the stuff that we were talking about before, I derailed us on this whole baby stuff.

I was a journalist for years, Orange County, and then moved to New York. and working for magazines and started going on television I was working at Time Out New York and so I was doing segments representing Time Out in New York

talking about events going on in the city on news and then that led to me appearing on a bunch of other shows. Do you know Red Eye? Have you done Red Eye? Oh yeah, Red Eye on Fox. Yeah. So I started going on that show a lot. It was a or is a late, like irreverent late night.

It's like their version of a late. Yeah. Roundtable panel thing which it's surprising that it's on Fox News. I remember at the time being surprised by that, but it's still going. Did that show a bunch, did other shows, things like that.

And then I started doing a web series. I'm compressing a lot of stuff. Started doing a web series, started doing a U-Stream show, so live-streaming internet show called Alison Rosen is your new best friend. I would do it for three hours every Sunday night, and I'd have different segments and interview people, celebrities, a lot of interaction within the chat room,

stuff like that as well. Was that like on a network or was that just your own thing? No, it was just, yeah, it was just my own thing. How hard was that to put together? It was really fun, actually. I did spend a lot of time doing a lot of prep for it. Because I remember I would, I mean, it was a three-hour show. Yeah.

So I would sit down and write out the order of how things are going to go and try to get it down to as much detail. It always like, by the end of the show, we got through half of it. Right, right, exactly. things always expanded. But you were really well prepared. Right. I just felt better having,

and, like, as opposed to my Thursday show now, where, for the most part, we are all there from the beginning. Although I have started experimenting with, if I have a special guest bringing them in about halfway through, with the Ustream show, it was like, I'd start out alone, and then I'd bring in one person, and then they'd go out, and then another person would come in, and then, like, two people.

It was, like, this crazy choreographed thing of how many people were there, times and I don't know, well, actually I do know why I had to do it that way because it was video. Right. So it's like, there couldn't be that many people at once. Right, exactly. Especially like on a U.S.

Like one shot, one feet. Right. Yeah, exactly. Everybody like crowded behind like all staring in. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So yeah, that was really fun.

And then I moved out to California in, I remember the day I flew back out permanently. It was Halloween of 2010. I was going back. back and forth a lot before that though. For family? Yeah, actually it was, my family's out here and there was like a family health situation going on. So I was helping take care of one of my family members. And I was spending so much time out here that it just didn't make sense to pay rent on my apartment in New York anymore.

And I remember thinking if there was something really holding me in New York, maybe I would fight to stay. but this is the most important thing is what's going on with my family right now and I feel like I need to be there and there's there's really no reason to insist on my trying to stay in New York. Plus I had already been thinking eventually maybe I want to come out back to California. Have you lived in New York? I haven't and I love it and I fantasize about it constantly. I still fantasize about moving back. I mean, I don't, the thing is when I, I had been there for nine years, but when I left, I was like, I don't think I'm done with New York.

York. I'm not done with you. I'm like a sex in the city character. Seriously. And I love, like, I go there a lot for work and I have like this constant ongoing fantasy about living there. But, you know, I always like, I have friends and we're like, I always move here. And then we're like, you know, if we lived in New York, we wouldn't be like going to every restaurant in town and drink until four in the morning, which is what we do when we go there for a weekend because we only have a weekend there. You know, we're like dropping, you know, huge piles of money. Now, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not like I'm bawling and flossing. But, you know, like you just, you know, I would just be getting on the subway like everybody, other, you know, schmuck and like going to,

work, you know, so it's like, I, my fantasy is based on, like, my vacations there, but I do love it so much. And I'm there like a couple times a month. But I think when you're there and you're in the entertainment industry, you're constantly doing this math of where should I be. Does it make sense to stay in New York? Right. There's more newsy type stuff, two-type jobs out here, but all the other kinds of entertainment jobs are in California, but there's more competition in L.A., but it really does seem, it just felt, but I think it's it always feels this way. That's kind of what I've gathered from hearing people talk this way, but it just felt like there was this mass exodus of people leaving New York. It did feel that way.

There were a lot of people that have left it because they felt like, you know, it was an interesting place to live, but it's so expensive. And there were just, there are things happening elsewhere. Right. So even though I did move out, I moved back to California at a time where I thought, I don't know that this is what I, like I don't feel like I'm done with New York. At the same time, I probably would have made that move anyway. So there were, I guess that's what I'm trying to say. Like there were extenuating circumstances. I likely would have made that move anyway.

It came out, audition for the Adam Carolla show. Was it just like a regular audition? Well, no, actually, because the audition was to be the newsgirl on a show. Okay. It was, your audition was a show that actually aired. Ah, okay. Yeah. So they were having this big newsgirl search at the time.

a whole bunch of different people were coming in and out. So I auditioned. Felt like I did well. And then I heard they had narrowed it down to four newsgirls. And they were each going to be given a week to audition. I don't know why I just held them. The audience didn't see that, but I'm letting everyone know. Anyway, I help my hand up.

Yeah, exactly. I can count. A week. And there are four weeks in a month. And that was working out perfectly. That's so wonderful. And I hadn't heard anything, though. So I was like, oh, I'm out.

Right. And then I sent one of the first of the time. of those sad fishing emails that you think are concealed to Mike Lynch. Actually, he works there. And it's funny I say a phishing email because the content of the email involved the band Fish. And he's a huge, huge fish fan. And I had this story about my brother and Fish. So I was like, oh, I thought you might want to know.

By the way, I would love to come back if you ever, you know, one of those emails that you're just trying to like a side. They're just trying to like sidelin. Yeah. Like, you know. So transparent. But he wrote back, and this is sort of a lesson in being self-defeating. I felt pathetic sending that email because I was convinced I was out of the running. But I just like, what the hell?

Might as well. It can't hurt. Also, you know what? It's nice to know. You know what I mean? Like there's a part of it's like, well, it's just be nice to know. Right. Yeah.

But he wrote back and he's like, oh, yeah, you were one of the fan favorites. We'd love to have you back. Are you available? So they just hadn't reached out yet. Right, right, right. I think he's like, I've been meaning to write to you. So then I did my week audition and then there was a weekend and I think they called me that weekend and I started right away. It all happened very fast.

And then I was there for four years. And now I'm not anymore. It was a good run. Since we're here, we'll do it now. Yeah. And I'll just preface all of this by saying what I said to you before we started, which is that like I've known Adam for very long time. I used to do his radio show when he had regular radio. and then I was one of the first guest on his podcast,

like this first week when he was still doing it at his house. And then he was one of my first guests on my show. And we've always been very friendly. And we've always been, you know, so we've had a really, like, convivial relationship. And he's always been good to me. I've always been good to him. I mean, you know, to the extent that we don't speak for a year.

And then, you know, it's not like we're, like, having coffee together. But I know that the way the things ended there were very difficult. And I let's, but in the four years, when you came on, you immediately were like the newsgirl on the Adam Pearlish show. And that show, I will say, for me, and you coming out of journalism,

must have felt very familiar to you, was like a regular radio show. It was like every day. How long was it? Is that just an hour? Hour and a half. But I would get there probably like an hour before that or so.

Well, at the beginning, I was living in Orange County. Oh, gosh. And he records in Glendale. Yeah. And it would, and we were recording at 8 o'clock. So I would leave at like,

I'd leave at 5.30? I would leave at 7.30. some crazy amount of time to leave myself, some crazy amount of time to get there because I was always fighting traffic. Right. The alternative would have been I could have left Orange County at 2 p.m.

and killed time at Starbucks or something. Right, right, exactly. I realized then I wouldn't be in traffic, but I'd be just kicking it at a Glendale Starbucks for too many hours. I used to do a show, every once in a while I would do a show at the Brea Improv.

And it was at 8, but those were the choices. Either I left at 2 p.m., then got to Brea at, like, 4.30 and then kicked it at the Cheesecake Factory. Or I left at like five and then spent three hours in traffic. And it was like so much. Right. It's such a terrible choice. There's, this is so, look, I don't want to put you fine.

I'm point in it, but Sophie's choice. But it was really like, you know, to me, I ended up doing the thing where I left really early because I just, I would be so enraged. I was just so it would like really affect my mood and then I would get on stage and I'd be like out of my mind. But, right. Right. Well, that, part of arriving. so that I still had about an hour or so, if I could,

was to decompress because I would be flustered and I'd be in a bad mood. And I realized I can do two hours in a car. Anything beyond two, I begin to want to chew my arm off and I need to pee really bad. Yeah, you got to pee. And there's like a subliminal,

like a low level kind of seething rage that you're not, like, look, it's one thing if you're like, you know, someone like cuts you off and you're screaming. It's another thing when you're just like, you're starting to like shake a little bit because you might murder. Right. Like you're like, like the opposite of murder is actually like you're considering it legitimately.

I feel like how could I, where would I put the body and how would I? So, and that's like that kind of stress can really like sleep into every aspect of your day. And I would, I would be sitting there just kind of absentmindedly thinking about stuff. That kind of those like automatic thoughts where you're not 100% conscious of what you're thinking, but your thoughts are still going. And I just feel like, you know, nothing's going right. Everything's wrong. You know, I'd just be just shitting on. all over everything, and then all of a sudden the traffic would open up and I'd be in a good mood.

Right. And then it occurred to me, this whole, everything, my whole mood when I'm driving is related to whether I'm moving or not. Right, exactly. And like, like, I should see this pattern so that the next time I don't like succumb to it over and over again. But I've tried to figure out why is traffic so annoying? Because you feel powerless.

Yeah. It's the powerlessness of it, you know? And I think, um, and driving in traffic requires a lot of concentration. Concentrating on your powerlessness. Yes. So you know what I'm saying? So you're like, so you can't just kind of surrender to being, right. Because I notice obviously like if I'm in an Uber and traffic from the airport or whatever,

I'm like, well, there's traffic. But then I just read. Right. Do you know what I mean? So it's like I'm powerless and I know I'm going to be late or it's going to take me a long time. But there's not this like constant reminder of the fact that like the stop and go like, you can't get out of this. You're trapped.

You're trapped. Right. And I think it's that. It's that kind of like feeling of, you know, yeah, entrapment. Right. Right. We worked that out, didn't we? We sure did. So in the beginning you were coming from Orange County,

but it was like a regular radio show. You did it every single day. And did that feel familiar to you because you've been doing broadcast for such a long time, or was it like a new environment for you? It, you know, I think my experience on Red Eye and various other on-air things, because I had done a fair amount, I didn't have a regular radio gig, but I'd done a fair amount of radio shows and things like that. So it did feel familiar in a way.

But the difference was the fact that it was five days a week, which I found very liberating because when I would be a guest on television shows or radio shows or things where you're a guest and then if you do well, they'll ask you back pretty soon. And if you don't, you won't hear from them for a while. but then they'll ask you back. Or if you don't hear from them a while, you will assume it's because you didn't do well last time,

but maybe it wasn't, this constant, never really knowing, feeling like if maybe you had a bad show, but people are saying, hey, good job, but you're like, but I can tell that it didn't do, I don't think I can trust that. Right. There was this comfort and liberation in knowing,

regardless of whether I feel like I did well or not, I'm going to be back here tomorrow. Right, right, exactly. And I stopped worrying so much. I mean, at the beginning, of course, because it's Adam's show, I did always kind of try to gauge how I did based on his body language. Right, right. And things like that.

But for the most part, I really liked it was the fun of an entertainment industry job with the security of a regular day-to-day job. Right. And there is something also. There's another aspect of that security when you're doing a shot. Like I know doing, you know, even the talk five days or like what I did talk soup, which is like, well, look, we shit the bed today we have tomorrow. Right.

So it's nice. It didn't make you glib or ambivalent so much as like you just were less precious with things. I think it made us funnier. You know, just like, okay, well, let's throw it up in the air and see what happens. So you do get a lot freer, and I think that can make you more interesting and a funnier. Okay. I'm glad you said it didn't make you glib or ambivalent because the whole time I was saying this, I'm like worried that that's what that suggests that I didn't, that I don't care on a day-to-day, day-to-day basis, which is absolutely not what I'm saying.

It's just that that pit in your stomach feeling of, I don't, think I did such a great job. Which can render you impotent. Totally. It can make you not brave. If you're so afraid of making a mistake that you don't ever hazard doing anything, you know. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I just remember from a comedic perspective, it just was like, well, I don't know, let's just try it. And so then the show felt, I think, looser and more interesting. But you didn't, go ahead. Well, I was going to ask you, when you do stand up, do you hang on how you feel like each show goes? Not anymore, but just because I've been doing it stand for like 20 years so, 22 years. So it doesn't, I'm not that precious with it. But, you know,

if I walk off and I don't think I did a great job, I'll kind of like nurse it a little bit. But, but I used to really like, oh, I did this wrong. I did that wrong. And sometimes it would affect me inside the set. Like if I, if I, if I was kind of felt like I was losing everybody, I would really spiral. But now I just, I've just been doing so long, I'm like, I'm like, I know I can get everybody back and I just kind of relax into it. Which makes you a better performer, I'm sure. Yeah. And I just think, the calmer you are and the more confident you are, the better, you're going to be period. And I think, like, again, like, that confidence can come from experience, but that confidence can also come from,

I've got plenty of road. I've got lots and lots of rope with which to hang myself. So, like, you know, like, we're not in a hurry to hit the wall. But also, I mean, that show, you know, was comedic and you were kind of coming out of a different format. And I wonder if that was also, like, a learning curve for you or if it was easy to kind of... You mean because I was always doing newsy stuff?

Yeah, more newsy stuff. And then even though there's something about the Adam Carole show that just feels like morning radio, like any other morning radio show. It is kind of more comedically. Yeah, I've always been sort of in between news and comedy. So that, I really didn't have a problem with that. I'm trying to think if I, you know, Adam is particular about what he likes in terms of

comedy and flow. So I think learning to work around him was, there was a learning curve there. But in terms of, you know, I was always the funny, wacky person on. on the very stage news program. Like when I was doing those segments on the news, I was always funny. Right. So that I felt in my element, actually.

Right. How did you navigate that? Like, we were saying he was very particular about stuff he liked. Did you guys have conversations about like what worked and what didn't on the show? Because it's harder to work. Look, it's harder to fit into somebody else's format. I mean, I just do the fucking thing I do. You know what I mean? You have your own show and your own show is your own creation.

Right. It's your tempo. It's harder to, like, fit into somebody. And it's even on, like, something like the talk, there are five of us. So that no one person's driving the tone. Right. Have one person driving the tone that can be different. Well, I mean, the fact that I am no longer there now cast everything in this different light

because these things that I thought, I thought I, I thought I, fucking knocked it out of the park on that show. I thought it was really good, really strong. They were really lucky to have me and everyone loved me. But I also think like when something ends, I mean, I think this like, like I, I, I, sometimes when something ends, it can color the whole relationship. Yeah. But sometimes that's not fair to you, not fair to the relationship. And I really don't think it was. It's just I imagine as I'm saying this, there are people out there who are like, no-uh.

No, I don't know. That's not how it was. No, you know, I don't think that. I definitely think that like, you know, something can come to an internet. It could have like, well, plus nothing to do with everything that came before. Which is what I actually think is the case. And plus I was there for four years. So I really don't think on, you know, month two, he was like, this isn't working out.

I'm going to let her know in four years. Yeah, exactly. But in terms of fitting, I think that what works for that show is to be a marriage of smart, funny, aware of the news, but also codependent enough that you can read things, moment. moment to moment and you're desperately trying to please. Right. And that's a rare, that's a tall order. Yeah, it's a tall order.

And maybe part of what happened, I've never said this publicly. I'm not even sure I think it. I'm just going to try it out. Maybe part of what happened is that codependent needing to please part of me is something I've been working on. And plus with my birthday coming up, I feel like that's kind of what that birthday is supposed to mean is that you're not so, so suppleadement. Is that the word?

Yes. You're not so much like that anymore. And even though I wasn't aware that it was affecting me, maybe there was some kind of sea change in me that he picked up on. Right. Which, by the way, it could be a really positive thing. I mean, you had your own show at this point. Yeah.

And it was doing well. Doing well. Yeah. And like a big part of like the evolution of who you are as an on-air personality. That's not really way I want articulate it. But it's just for the sake of the conversation is like, you know, getting a certain confidence and a certain self-awareness that could play very differently in a group dynamic, you know, like, I know that, like, who I thought of myself, how I saw myself

as an interviewer, you know, in season one of the show is not how I see myself now. But a lot of those changes were not conscious changes that just evolved over time as I got better at being an interviewer and felt more comfortable talking to people. And I imagine you evolved a lot. I mean, I think from when I first met you doing this show to when I did your show, and I've never said this publicly, and this is 100% of confidence. So please take it that way. I was like so delighted and surprised at how amazing you were at doing your own show. Oh, thank you. Because you would always been kind of, you know, the person who popped in, you know, like chimed in. And then I was like, oh, she's incredibly confident. And I was incredibly confident. And I was going to say competent. But competent doesn't even, that's not emphatic enough. You were like really excellent at it.

Oh, thank you. And like fun to talk to. And you know what I mean? And so like I think. those are things that could have seeped into that dynamic in a way that, you know. Right. And I think they did without me being fully aware of it. But that's positive, though. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, that's just only positive for you. I think so.

I mean, it was a great run. It was a great four years. I don't know that the best thing for me would have been to stay there forever. At the same time, I don't know that I would have chosen to leave unless the next thing was lined up. Right, right. Because I was constantly being reminded, you know, by people on the outside of like, this is, you know, look at the audience, the platform, the exposure. Like, you should hang on to this for as long as possible. Right.

Right. And there's a lot of wisdom in that. So, and I would remind myself of just how great I had it. It was, you know, and we really had found a rhythm and it was easy. And, you know, I'm not being very articulate right now. Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is. is kind of what I was saying before, that I wouldn't have chosen to leave

unless the next thing came along. But I think that leaving has been good for me and was the right move. Even though I don't enjoy the way it all went down. Right. But you feel like it would have pushed you, goose to start to do your old thing in a way that you might have held

for a longer period of time. Yeah. And, you know, that job, again, I'm very grateful for everything that came of it. I'm grateful for the time that I had on the show, grateful for everything I learned, et cetera. But there was this idea that you can do this job, an idea, I think, said by Adam.

You can do this job and you can be using it as a platform or you should be using it as a platform and you should be out there trying to get all this other. Because it wasn't a full-time job. Right. So you should be trying to do all this other stuff while you're also doing this job. But the reality was, for me,

it was a full-time job. Right. And it wasn't feasible to also be doing a whole bunch of other stuff and that job. So now it really is more feasible. Right, right. Yeah, that's interesting. I'm going to pull, you said something I think it's so interesting. I'm going to pull out of that context and put somewhere else, which is, I'm trying to think of how it came up because I just had this conversation with someone where they were like, oh, you know, oh, we were talking about title and about whether title was going to work.

as like a music platform, right? And da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And people were like, no one's going to go on title. No one's going to pay for music. And I was saying, well, you know, the way that Jay-Z set of title is that, like, you've got all these massive names to invest, and then they're going to pull their music off from, like, Pandora. Actually, I don't really know how it works.

Yeah, it's just like a pay. It's like a pay version. It's like a pay version of, like, Pandora or Spotify. But so, like, the idea is that you pay $20 a month and you get, like, really high-deaf versions of the songs, like the quality of a much higher, blah, blah, blah. But it's a pay service. Right. And then I may not even describe this properly, so feel free to write me a letter.

But I think another part of it is like some of these artists that are participating in Title are going to eventually, if they haven't already, pull their music off of the other non-pay services so that the only place you can get their music if you don't purchase it is on something like title. Right. You know, and we all know that Taylor Swift famously pulled her music off of Spotify. Or maybe it was Pandora. Maybe it was both. Anyway, I remember saying that someone was saying, well, they're not going to have as much exposure. I'm like, well, Taylor Swift sold like 100 million moms last year.

She could give a fuck about exposure. Right. And I think exposure can be meaningful, but only to a point, if it's not actually advancing your own agenda. Do you know what I'm saying? I totally do. Like everyone's on, someone's like, well, you should do this because a million people are going to see it. I'm like, but a million people aren't seeing me do my best work, if it's not translating to like those eyeballs moving over to my stuff. Right.

Then it's not really meaningful to me. It's just meaningful for the people who are producing that thing and need a body or a name for that day of the show. So there have been things that people were like, oh, well, this TV show, and I'm not going to name anybody. like this TV show gets like this many millions of viewers. I'm like, yeah, but doing that TV show is not going to translate to my podcast getting that. Yeah. Well, and also, you know, there's, there are certain audiences.

And now I'm speaking about exposure in general, because Adam's audience is very engaged. But there are certain audiences that are super duper engaged. And then there are certain audiences that are huge, but not that engaged. And you will get more people to listen to you and to watch you and to check out your podcast with a smaller, more engaged audience. Yeah, with a smaller or more engaged audience who's more likely to, you know, that are early adopters that are more like,

because like some audiences just don't port, you know what I mean, they just don't port over from whatever they saw you on. And they'll be like, oh, I enjoyed that. But they're not then Googling you and like looking for your stuff. Right. So, you know, exposure can be good to a point,

you know, which I think that's what we were saying, but it's not always the end-all be-all. And I think, you know, it's interesting. I mean, we're talking about we started off talking about age. I think, like I said, sometimes you're flung into the pool, right? You needed to swim and maybe you were going to dip a toe. Now you're, now you're in a deep end. I'm a toe deeper kind of, a toe dipper kind of person, by the way. You know what I mean? And you need sometimes you need a kick. But I do think that also like, interestingly enough, 40 is a weird time, right? Because part of you gets more brave because you're more confident in your ability and you're also trying to figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life. The party gets more conservative because, you know, you're like trying to be more practical. You're family or you're going to have a house. You can have kids. So it's very interesting those two things can be in conflict, like wanting to be brave and then needing stability.

Right. You know, those things don't always, like, intersect at the right time because I think you're super brave in your 20s when you're an idiot. You know what I mean? There's less at stake. Nothing to lose, right? And then when you know enough to be brave, you're more conservative. Well, I, you know, I used to say yes to any on-air opportunity. and it was almost like the more challenging the better.

I mean, I remember I was always a person that you could call last minute if you had a cancellation and I would fill in. And I remember getting a call at seven in the morning or something from a producer who I knew from another show saying it was for the morning show with Mike and Juliet, which used to be, it was a Fox morning show. And she was like, if someone dropped out, is there any way you can come be on the show? And I had to be there in like 45 minutes. And I'm not an early riser anyway.

Also, by the way, being camera ready is not. It takes the entire 45 minutes to do that. I know. I actually went on, I mean, I ended up doing it, and I went on camera with just mascara or something. Right. And foundation. Right. But it was like not the whole thing that I would have wanted, you know.

Right. But I remember thinking, if I do well, then I will score a lot of points. but if I don't do well they're not going to be like oh well at least she said yes and busted her ass to get in here but I decided to roll the dice and just do it

and I did it and I did well and I think the adrenaline junkie part of me enjoyed that crazy kind of thing but I don't think I would do something like that now right I think I've gotten to the point where I don't feel like I have to say yes to every single thing especially if

I know that because the circumstances are so crazy, there's a greater chance for failure. Right. Right. I mean, that's the thing. Like, you want to set yourself up for success. Yes. And you always want to kind of,

you don't want to be so conservative that you don't give yourself an opportunity that you might take otherwise, just because your word is not going to go perfectly. But there is something about, about, like, someone, because here's the thing, someone needs something from you. And you don't always win by serving that need. You know, where they're like, I'm like, you know,

just because you guys are falling apart, doesn't mean that I'm, you know, that I've got to step in. and save you. And I might not win, not because of my own ability or inability, because I just don't have the time and the bandwidth to, like, get this right in the short window of time. And then you're kind of fucked. And they're moving on to the next thing. And I used to, I used to be like you, especially like with late night, like, if it was late night show that I had to fall out, I would always come to do it. That was when I was like, you know, a stand up and I need it. But then at some point,

I was like, you know, I'm just not sitting, I'm not at home like staring at my phone like the RCA dog. You know what I mean? Like, I have shit to do. And I also want to be my best. I want to be in my best. You know, because, like, you guys have five, you have five days of TV to make. You know, if you fuck it up tonight, you come back tomorrow. But if I fuck it up tonight, I don't come back here tomorrow. So. And again, they won't be like, well, but, you know, she did do us a solid. No, they won't. That goes out the window.

No, she wasn't good. That was terrible. Yeah. And now knowing that I'm on a daytime show, whatever, if somebody comes in and they shit at the bed, they don't get asked back. Right. You know, I mean, even if they did do us a favor, you know, and I mean, not like we're shitty about it, but we're like, what I don't know.

I didn't do anything. That person added no value. Right. And what are the things that would make someone shit the bad? Just being monoslavic, of course, would be terrible. One nice thing about our show, and I don't think I'm talking too much out of school, is that we really want people to win. Do you know, we really do?

We're not a culture where we're going to come in. We're going to come in and show us what you got. We really work very hard to prepare everybody. You know, sometimes people come in and they don't want a pre-interview and they don't. But we really want them to win. We want them to be set up to win. And we want, you know, we feel like if our, if our guest comes in and they kill them, we kill and that's all we care about.

So that's like everybody from like the celebrities to like the person who's, like the top talk or whoever, the chefs, we want them to win. You know what I mean? That's our goal. So I think it's hard to, it's really hard to blow it on our show. Right. You know, so I think the times, and I obviously won't name any names, but I think the times when someone's blown it is when they just were.

They were like just monosyllabic or honestly unkind if they were shitty to our staff. That's like a big no-no. Yeah. If we have somebody comes in with an attitude and they're crappy to the producers, they don't get asked back to the show. And I think it's big on our show. We don't know assholes. Like it's just like a big, we have a big no asshole policy. And there are many people that have come on and been like delightful on air and then awful off air and then they don't they don't get us back.

But you know, we've had a couple people who came on and we're like super nervous. And that's always, you're always a bum because you feel like, well, they feel for them. Yeah. Like they're just so nervous like you just couldn't get anything out of them. Right. And then it's not so much like they're not coming back. We're like, oh. You know, they're not seasoned.

Well, it was bad for everybody. You know what I mean? Because it was bad for that person because they didn't shine. And it was bad for us because it was a bad segment. But, you know, it's not like they're like blacklisted. But you just, you know, there were a couple. And there was just one person that came on and I just was such a huge fan. I can't say his name.

He was just so nervous. He was sweating bullets. And nothing we could do because we're all, we're really big on coaxing, on helping people if they're floundering. Like, it's a big thing with us. We'll like really chat them up and just trying to make them feel comfortable. Yeah. Just nothing.

He was little like a cat in a bathtub. Like you could just not. He could not sue this. person at all. So, but yeah, I don't know that there's been like a long list of people that we don't ask back. But if you're shitty, like if you're like snoddy, you're done. Good. And there's, I was going to say there's so many people, but that's not fair. Because I don't, I don't encounter that much. But there are, there are people who will, and we all know this kind of person, they will be nice to the people who are above that. Who matter. Yes. And then just awful, awful to the

PAs or the assistants. I always think, how can you talk to someone that way? How can you be that way? How can you be that person? Yes. Like, so calculatingly, like, and there are a lot of people like that kind of in the general, or not a lot, but you're right, there are people like that, like, kind of in the general culture of, like, Hollywood.

Yes. And so I've taken, someone will be like, is that person nice? And I always have to say, well, you know what, they were nice to me. Right. Because I can't vote for their niceness across the board. I realize now that, like, some people are probably nice. to me because they know me from something. And I'm bummed.

I'm even bummed to qualify it that way, you know. But I always be like, that person's super nice to me. They never had a bad experience with them. But I know that you can't necessarily extrapolate that across every encounter. But I was listening, was it with Amber Tamblin? I love her so much. She is great. You were talking about the phase of your career where you would defer to someone

because you would just assume that they know more about this or that in filmmaking and things like that. And I remember. one of the people, the aforementioned people who was always nice to those above her, but really terrible to any sort of underling. I remember watching her, she was working on a package, and I guess the producer had cut it, and she didn't like it. She was in New York. Yes, it was in New York.

And the email she sent to him was like, what are you going to do about this? What are you going to do about this? Dada-da-da. Whereas if I had been sending that kind of email, first of all, I never would have sent that kind of email, but I would have been like, you know, it occurred to me that, like, so probably mealy-mouthed and deferential. And because I was still, and at times am still, in the phase of my career where I will just assume, oh, you know better than I do. Right. And I think that's not always the case, though. No. So the question is, regardless of their position, right.

accomplishment rang years in the business, all of it. Right. So I guess what I, what, the thing that I struggle with, um, is not being her and not being awful, but still overruling something or trying to get what I want or what I need. Mm-hmm. That's complicated. It is complicated. And I think it's complicated and, you know, not to be super gendery, but I think it can be more complicated for women because, you know, we're like, you know, it's, I always, I always want to be agreeable. Yeah, exactly. That's like the nature.

You want to be like everybody. You don't want to be shitty. And I realize, like, sometimes what happens is you're always trying to be so, so peaceable and accommodating that you aren't actually asking for what you need. So then the same mistakes or the same things keep happening. Like, you know, I know with people I've worked with them. I'm like, you know, how can I be more definitive? Like, because I just keep feeling I'm doing this in the nicest way possible.

It's like Groundhog Day. I'm not fucking getting the thing that I asked for, you know. Yeah. And I don't know. I mean, I think I really prize, like, feasibility and, you know, congeniality. And I think there's a way to be, like, respectful of people while you're telling them why they fucked up. But I think that's, like, skill you have to develop and you have to actually use that skill. Like, to use that muscle a lot, like, being super definitive in a kind way.

I do for, like, older I get, like I said, I start to give a lot less of a shit. I do. And I, not to be mean, I've never been mean, but just to say, like, this is what I want. you know, I remember actually doing a short film a few years ago, and some of the people I worked with were, like, arguing with me about something. And I was like, there's a long time I've ever kind of lost my temper because I'm big on not losing my temper because I always feel like if you lose it, you are giving up all your power. Yeah.

You've just given the other person the power over your tempo. You'd like let them know they've gotten to you and, you know, you say and do shit you regret. And it's just like I always see it as a sign of weakness. I think some things people think if they go off like they're being strong, but I think it's like this intense sign of weakness. Right. But as a result, sometimes I don't communicate with me. I just remember lost my temper.

I was very mad at myself. but I was just like, this is my film. I just had to say it. Like, it's not that I don't respect your input, and it's not that I don't think you have anything to offer. And it maybe isn't even that you have more experience than me, but this is mine. So what I want is what has to go into the film,

and then when you make a film, you can make it the way that you want it. And that's true no matter how you express it. Do you know what I'm saying? Like when you need something, you need it. And I think it's fair to say, regardless of your accomplishment, this is what I need.

You know, it's hard to do. It's hard to do, but I think it's something you have to, like, force yourself to do. Right. You know, instead of just avoiding it. How did you feel after you said that? I got what I wanted. Good.

Yeah, but, you know, quite honestly, I wish I'd been more assertive because I didn't get everything I wanted because I kind of let some things slide because I was like, yeah. But I just did a film in December to make this next three seconds all about me. No, please. And I remember saying to the people on that film, I said, look, I'm really clout of. I really want to hear your ideas.

Like, please pitch. not everything's going to make it in. And I was clear about that. I was like, I'm not going to do everything you ask, but I really do want you to pitch me and feel brave because you may think of something I didn't think of. And they did.

And then there were some things they pitched and I was like, I'm not going to do that. So I don't know. I think it's a muscle that you have to exercise in all of your life. You know, we're just... Right. Because now that I think about it,

I think that that temptation to defer honestly, probably comes first from not wanting conflict and then justifying it as, oh, well, and it's okay that there's no, it's okay that I'm taking the path to least resistance because they know what they're doing, right, as opposed to the more organic, genuine deferring, which would be, I respect this person's work and I'm familiar with it. Right. And I trust, I've thought about it and I trust what they say. Right, right. It's always, not always, but it's often the other one, which is not wanting to make ways.

Well, this may even be like super passive aggressive, but I'll do, I do this often. I'll go, I'm sure, you know a lot more about this than me, but here's what I was thinking. And that way you kind of like... I don't think that's passive-aggressive. I think that's smart. I mean, hopefully I'm just like, you know, appealing to their ego.

Yes. You have way more experience in this field than me, but this is what I would like to do. Right. And then a lot of times you'll, you are deferring your kind of... Because whenever you let somebody know that you think that they're smart, then they, you know, then they may be...

Right. They kind of, you know, engage with you in a different way. Well, yeah, because then it doesn't turn into a, like, clash of egos. They don't have to prove... Yeah. prove to you that they know more than you. Because you've already stipulated to the fact that they know more than you, right?

And I'll also do the other thing that's kind of like self-undercutting. Well, I don't know this is very good idea. It's a puppy stupid idea. I do that. I do that too. Yeah. Is that bad? I don't know.

I mean, it's conciliatory. You know what I mean? And it's a way of hedging your bets. Right. But it also disarms anybody. They don't get to call it a stupid idea before you did. Yeah. You know what I mean?

And I'll do it if I, sometimes it'll do it. I don't know if it's a good idea. But I don't know, you know, it must be nice to be so, you know, for people that are just like awful people. There must be some, it must be, there must be an ease to that, you know, just to being, just to knowing you know everything and everybody's stupid. Yeah. And, and just the ease of walking around being like, if someone's bummed out, that's their

problem. Right. Although I feel like that's actually what everyone is. No. I was going to say that's what you're supposed to. That's the healthy thing. but that's not healthy. That's way,

that's too far in the other direction. Yeah, so that's also interesting, like the idea that like, like, for example, like someone who's just kind of like a, like maybe someone's like a serial date

or just like I'm a dates and dumps and dates. Yes. Right. But like, which is most people on online dating, I think. Right. Right.

And never really like taking responsibility for anybody's emotional life. Well, you know, you shouldn't have to take responsibility for people's emotional life, but you also shouldn't engage in a way that gives them in the idea

that you are going to engage with emotionally. Right. Do you know? I think people like say, well, you know, if they're, if they're bombed, that's their fault. They knew what they were getting into, but they didn't really know what they were getting into.

Right. You know? Right. Like other people's emotions are their business at the same time, don't be a dick. Right. Yeah, exactly. Don't be a dick. I mean, I think if you say to someone, whatever it is, like, hey, I'm not just in a long-term

relationship, but I'm super excited to fuck you. That if that person engages in they're bombed, then they knew, then it's caveat emptor, you know, and they knew what they were getting into. I don't know how we got on this tack, but I really enjoyed it. I have a lot of friends who are dating, and I'm very curious about that, you know, what it's like to date now. Well, here's a question that I think about sometimes. So the situation where, let's just to use traditional gender roles, the guy would say, I don't want anything, I just, this is just about sex for me. And then, you know, so she enters into it with her eyes open.

But let's say that he and everyone else realizes that even though she's saying she's cool with it, she's, maybe she's young or maybe she's inexperienced or for whatever reason, you know, she's more invested in this. Should he break it off? Yes. You think he should. I think he should. I think no matter the gender.

Because I think that that girl was always me. I mean, I heard what they were saying, but I wasn't believe it. I wasn't believe. I didn't believe it. Right. But I don't think that I would have wanted the guy to stay away from me. Yeah. Because that would have hurt me.

Maybe you would have been the better thing. But see, probably there's no, so probably there's like no safe way out. Do you know what I mean? Right. For the guy and for the girl, I was thinking for whoever's more emotionally invested because you really like somebody. Yeah. And I think this goes for men and women.

You really like somebody. And they're telling you they like you enough, but they're only interested in sex. And so you're like, well, I'll take you how I can get you because I really like you. And I will turn it into what I want. Right. And we'll see, we'll see how it goes. You know, even if you're saying, like, there's two mindsets. The one mindset is, well, I don't care how I get you as long as I get you.

take what I can get. Yeah. And I think a lot of times that's how a lot of people are, which is like, if I get in any time with you, it'll be great. And then, again, the secondary mindset is like, hopefully I'll inveigle my way in. And that one, you're not even admitting to yourself, though, really. Right. You know, you're also not saying you're not, the other thing you're not admitting to yourself

is like, this is going to get super dangerous for me. Yes. Because I have these feelings for this person and they don't feel the same way about me. I'm going to continue to get more and more attached to this person. And then I'm going to break in half when they dump me. You know, and that, you know what I mean? like and so you're so you're inviting like inevitable heartbreak into your life right um but then if the person says look I think you're getting too attached to me we need to break it off you would be like no no no no no don't

go I mean like there's honestly there's like my soul just crumpled up and died when I even no I don't think that anyone ever put it that way to me but just the idea that someone would say you're getting too attached we should break it off I just be like awful it's so it's so You know, because it's like, oh, God, I didn't play it cool enough. They can read me. But, you know, like, your feelings are your feelings. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like there's also something interesting in that taicot or that, like, dynamic,

which is like, that person, if they're kind and they were legitimately doing you a kindness, they might not say you're getting to attach. What they might say is like, look, I feel like this is going too fast and it's going to end in heartbreak. And I think it would be safer for both of us. That would be the kind way to say it's not going to fucking not hurt. It's going to hurt no matter how it goes down. It's just going to be fucked up. I don't think that's, there's no safe way out.

but I also think that like I think there's value and I and I think that it's like an indivisible part of aspect of the human experience to get your heartbroken and I think a while ago I decided like especially with my friendships I was like if I love somebody like and as a friend that I'm just going to tell them I'm and I'm not going to worry about whether they're going to reciprocate because my feelings are my own feelings so I get to say how I feel and I will try not to make you feel obligated to reciprocate, but if I don't say that I love somebody, then I'm not being honest about who I am, you know?

So in some friendships that I might have, I don't have ever talked about this show before, but like their friendships are, like, and I'm sure I have people who love me that I don't reciprocate towards them in a friendship way that they would like, you know, they'd want to spend more time with me and I'm not available to them.

But I have friends who I really love and they're not as available to me as they'd like them to me, and I have divorced myself from that expectation. But I am devoted to the part, where I say, oh, I think you're amazing and I really love you, I'll spending time with you. And I think, you know, I think that maybe playing it cool in a relationship can pay, but I don't know necessarily that, like, it's an honest way to move through the world.

I don't think it is. You know? I don't think it is, but I think that if you are at the point in your life where you are interested in moving through the world in an honest way, maybe you wouldn't be in those relationships. Right, right. You know, so I know that when I met my husband, um, we, neither of us played games with each other. And we always talk about that as a function of having been through the ring or enough

and not wanting to. I don't, you know, I don't know why that was. I don't know if it's because there was this instant sort of recognition that we didn't need to do that or we didn't want to mess it up with, with the game playing or we were just tired of games. I don't know what it was. but that's the first time that I had ever had that experience where I wasn't worried about playing at cool

or worried about not responding right away to a text or not being, you know, am I being too available? All that stuff, which kind of makes me think maybe all of that stuff grows out of a union that just isn't ultimately meant to be. Right, right. Because, I mean, so that's really interesting too because I do feel like they're just people

that you connect with in a different way. And that is just on a different plane. Right. You know what I mean? And oftentimes that just kicks in right away. Right, right. Like I think, you know, and I think it can be that with friends too. Totally.

And like immediately you want to be their friend. And you're just like, we have to hang out all the time. And they're like, yes, me too. And, you know, and it's weird when it happens later in your life because you feel like you don't make friends that way, like late in life. But I have a relatively new friend. And we met through a mutual friend and we just became best friends right away. And that was just that.

You know, and it wasn't like, and, you know, we were like telling each other our secrets. And, you know, I think the older you get the. less likely you are to tell people your secrets, but sometimes you disconnect with people. So it may just have been that you guys just were connected in a way that made that other stuff not that interesting or meaningful, but, you know, one or both of you would have been playing games if you weren't that invested in the relationship. Definitely. That was interesting. I love talking about all that stuff. I know. It's so funny. I think, I think that, like, the older you get, the less you talk about, like, relationship.

I don't know, like, you just... I feel like it's all I talked about when I was young. I was that girl who was always like, and then he said this, and then I did this, what do you think that means? I mean, I feel like I was polling everyone. And again, that was something that didn't happen when I met the guy that I'm now married to.

Maybe I just had fewer people to talk to. I don't know. There wasn't that neat. You know why? Because there things weren't happening. There weren't confusing things happening. I knew what things meant. You knew exactly what I meant.

Right. Well, here's something that happened a long time. So when I moved back to Orange County after college, I played in a band. Oh, cool. This was in, we were like a girl punk band. Adorable. Thank you. I'm so excited about this story. Our drummer was a guy, though.

Well, I was the drummer initially. We were a three-piece, and I played drums. And then I said, I'm moving to San Francisco because my intention was never to go back to Orange County for any period of time. Right, right. So I said, I'm moving. And then I went up to San Francisco and then I came back and I'm like, oh, hey, I'm not moving. That was ill thought out. No, what happened in San Francisco?

It just didn't feel right. I just got, I actually went up to just look at the apartment that some friends from college and I were planning to move into. And I don't know what it was. I just, it didn't feel right. Plus, there was this guy that I really liked that, and that was back in L.A. Right. And yeah, I just, I just was like I'm not, this, I haven't thought this out. I don't have a job.

I don't. I couldn't figure. out how to get all the components of my life to work. Suddenly, I was just paralyzed with all the options after college of like, do you get a job and then let that determine where you live? Do you choose where you want to live? Go there and then get a job. Do you just figure out which friends you want to live with?

Adult life all of a sudden, I felt so ill-prepared. How is everyone else doing this? I just trust it would all work out. And suddenly it wasn't working out. So I just kind of got stymied in Orange County for a bit. But things worked out. But I played in a band. So when I came back and I also played guitar.

So they had a drummer who, this guy, Tim, who was a much better drummer than I ever was. But they said, you want to play guitar on the band? And I said, sure. And that was more fun because there was much less, you know, there wasn't all the equipment to carry around anyway. Right. You weren't stuck behind that. Right. So I had fun.

So anyway, this was in the height of my. being... Do you watch Mad Men? I don't, but my husband loves it. Oh, okay. Well, there was... This is not a spoiler. Okay.

There was a line that Sally said to Don. She said about both of her parents. She said, anyone shows you any bit of attention and you just ooze

all over the place. I'm bastard. Now I wish I hadn't even brought it up. I said it wrong. I was like that, but not in any sort of cool way. It was like,

anyone showed me any attention and I was just theirs. Right. I was so... I was so enamored of them. I was so young. I was such a late bloomer and I was just so young, even though I wasn't so,

I was emotionally so young. So Tim's friend, who I think had a girlfriend, but was just kind of like a fast-living, bad news kind of guy, he and I hooked up one night. We didn't have sex, but,

oh, maybe we did. Yay. No, we did, actually. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah, thank you. And then, Then, no, I know, but then there was another time that we hooked up and that time we didn't have. It's funny that that's the one I'm remembering.

We didn't have sex. I think we just made out or something. But Tim told this guy to stay, that he should stay away from me because I think he was trying to protect me. He was like she's going to, you know, I think what he actually said was she doesn't read signals from guys right. which was true. Right. I spent probably a decade denying that that was ever true. But in retrospect, he was so spot on.

Right. Because this guy had no intention of anything with me. Mm-hmm. And I think Tim saw that I was going to get hurt and it was going to be messy. And I think he felt protective of me and saw me as, he was old, everyone in the band was older than I was. Saw me kind of as a little sister. But when I found out this happened, I was so, oh my God. It was like, I felt violated.

I was like, someone came into my life and, like, took something away from me. How dare, I mean, just enraged. And I look back on it now and I think that was a nice thing he was trying to do for me. Right. But I couldn't, for so long, I could not, I could not see it clearly. Or maybe I just, I saw it clearly, but I just had a different perspective on it. But that sort of plugs into that question. before of let's say the person knows the situation right and is saying they're cool with it

should the guy break up with you right I was so angry that anyone would like munk this take this yeah monkey with your right situation right but it's like that's so interesting because like first of all I think you you know like your sense of your own perceptive abilities like at you know 15 or 20 or 25 is like so disproportionate to your actual receptive ability like you think you're you you see things and you don't see anything and you don't understand anything. Right. Like, I was 21 or 22 at this time, let's say, and Tim was probably like 31 or 32. Yeah, yeah. And was the guy that age as well? He was even a little bit older. So he was like 30, five. Tim did you such a kindness. I know. Like, I know. You know what I mean? And even, and by the way, like even, and

you had a relationship with Tim. So I would assume and believe that he was, was absolutely not just doing your kindness, but his intent was to be kind. Yes. But, um, but even if his intent was like and again I'm going to make this gender neutral because I think there's many men as women that are like this although I think women get the rap for this a lot but I think there's many guys and I actually had a guy friend saying to me the other day oh he goes guys get their hearts broken so much more badly than women do and it's so funny because yeah so this is so funny oh this is good I don't know how this got to be a relationship show but this is so great because I was just talking to two different friends about the same thing I was talking to a girlfriend and she said and this is

so interesting to me she's like I for such a long time just didn't believe that guys were as emotional, as capable of emotional depth as women. I just felt like we feel things more and guys are all just kind of dead inside. And I was like, that's so interesting. Keep my own opinion out of it. But let me say for the record, I don't believe that.

But then a guy friend of mine who had his heartbroken and was like, it was broken for years, said no. He said maybe women, maybe women get their hearts broken a little more easily, but guys can never recover. And it was just so interesting to hear, like, I was like, I just think that there's this, that there can be this experiential difference between the genders, which keeps it, makes it very difficult for you to see how somebody from the other gender sees things.

Right. Because he was like, he was like, his heart was just fucking shattered. He was like, I couldn't, I couldn't even get a boner. Like, I could not deal. Yeah. You know, and I think, you know, women are like, oh, guys, just like break up and then I go off and they get laid, you know, and he was like, I couldn't have sex with anybody. I couldn't do anything. My heart was so broken.

So what is the upshot of all of this? The upshot is that. Even if Tim, and I think there are men and women both who kind of can latch on emotionally quickly and very tightly. Right. But even if Tim was saying to his friend in the cruelest way possible, she's a latcher on her, right? He was still doing you a favor.

Do you know what I'm saying? Right. He was still doing you a favor because it could not have ended any other way but heartbreak for you. Right. And whatever his motivation, he was still helping you. But of course, in your latcher-a-a-a-a-a-state of mind, where you were probably having a great time

and super like this boy, you were like, hey, I'll be the judge of that. Right. Right. I'm an adult. I can take care of myself.

But it's interesting, like, well, you know, you can and you can't, right? Like, you can.

And you don't need anybody to save you. And I do think that, like, heartbreak is just like this natural part of being alive. But I wonder,

like, if you would have wanted to have been saved by the guy who said to you, you're getting too attached to me, we should break up. No, it was just meaningful

to live through whatever fucking awful thing happened to you. Well, that's the thing that I, that just kind of dawned on me now, um, is that I had very overprotective parents. I was a late bloomer. I think there was this need to experience a lot of stuff quickly to sort of catch up to where I was supposed to be. Right. So the idea that, oh, you'll thank me someday. Like, oh, fuck you. I will not. Yeah, even though now I do appreciate what he was trying to do. Right. I was just like, please don't rip an experience away from me. I've spent so much of my life not experiencing things that I need to get, well, I didn't

think, I didn't, I didn't think I need to get knocked around. But you probably couldn't have articulated it that way, but that's what you were needing, was I need these experiences. They're my experiences to have. And I do think everyone needs those experiences. I do too. I mean, they're awful when you're going through them, right? But that's just like what it means to be alive.

Right. Your parents were really protective of you? They were. They're just very... Are you an only child? No, I have two older half-brothers from my dad's first marriage, and then I have a younger sister. And I don't know if it's because my dad's a doctor. I mean, he's retired now.

He would say it's because he's a doctor, and so his mind instantly goes to worst-case scenarios. I don't really think it's that. I think he's a person who's prone to be kind of a... He catastrophizes things. And he is prone to being anxious. And I think maybe all of that drove him to become a doctor because being a doctor gives you a sense of control. Sense of control. Maybe not actual control, but a sense of it.

Right. And omnipotence. And, you know, it's a way to sort of bury all those fears. But he's just a very fearful person. And I think that he, you know, his greatest fear is that anything would happen to one of his kids. So his intention certainly wasn't to not allow us to experience things. But I think in the moment when it came down to deciding, well, I could let my kid do this thing. But what if something happens to them? It was just this decision of I don't want anything to happen to them.

I don't want them to get hurt. But it wasn't like you have a curfew and you're not allowed to do this or that. It was always this. If there was ever anything I wanted to do that he didn't want me to do, it was like this elaborate discussion of all the things that could go wrong and all the reasons that I shouldn't do it. But I'm not going to say no, you have to make the decision. And so it just became like very, very, it was unintentionally manipulative. Right.

And so I would just get stuck. Like I can't figure this out. And I just feel upset about it. Probably not do it. I was also, I was a fat baby. I was overweight for up until probably my, probably my, late 20s. So being the fat kid, that was my identity in school.

And having that extra weight really insulates you from attention from your peers and dating and all of that stuff. Yeah, I mean, both, like you said, it insulates you from attention. And then it can be insulative. You know, like your own behavior just keeps you kind of interior, it makes you less brave. Right. Yeah.

So I think that there was. was also this, you know, I didn't have a ton of experiences for that reason, too. I'm making it sound like I grew up in a bubble or something, which is really not the case, although arguably Orange County is that. It was mostly that I was, because I actually, you know, I started writing for the LA Times when I was in high school still. Oh, wow. Impressive. Professionally, I was like, I thought I was this doogiehouser fast-track to success kind of person. It's just that I think that when you

when you have success early in one area of your life, another one gets arrested. And so it's social development and dating and all that. I was just so behind. When you finally, did you date it all in high school? A very little bit.

When I was 17, I dated this guy for a little while. I mean, like a tiny bit, but not like, I was just talking to a friend who also grew up in Orange County who lost his virginity at 14 and the girl was 13. I know. And he couldn't believe that I lost my virginity at 20. And he's like, how? I just assumed everyone had grew up in a beach town, grew fast. I was fat.

Just wasn't that way for me. Right, right. God, that is that that's so interesting. I mean, I don't think 20 is that late, but it's interesting that he was talking about like culturally, like where you grew up and how that would. specifically in you know create an environment where everybody was having sex super early. Yeah. But it's attitudinal too, right? I mean, it's super attitudinal. Like even the way you like it's like, I mean, I didn't

I lost mine in the middle there somewhere. But I, but my attitude was like I'm just going to have, I'm just going to lose my virginity now. It's just time. You know what I wasn't, it wasn't romantic. It wasn't slutty. It wasn't like I was high all the time. It wasn't like I, I just like, now it's time. Right. And I, you know, and I think that's like totally attitudinal. You know. And was it, do you feel good? Did you feel good about it? And do you feel good about it?

You know, I don't feel anything about it. Isn't that so sad? Me and all my girlfriends had this pact that we were going to lose our virginities with someone who didn't matter is that we were in love, the sex would be like, wouldn't be painful. That was like the big, like, plan. Oh. Yeah. Solid plants.

Very like, sister head of the traveling pants. She's write a book about it. Totally. And I don't regret it. No, I don't look back. I'd be like, oh, no, that was the worst way to do it. You know, it just, like, totally. was what it was.

Yeah. But I never had a romanticized idea about sex. My parents were always like, like, talked about it enough that I didn't romanticize it at all. And they were like, if you have a baby, like, if you get pregnant, we'll, you know, we'll murder you. I don't think that was the actual outcome. But like just the idea of getting pregnant was like anathema.

Like nothing worse in the world could happen to me than to get pregnant as a teenager. I literally could not think of one worse outcome. Death was not as bad as getting pregnant. No, I think I think I was the same way. Yeah. Which goes back to what we were talking about the very beginning. It brings us full circle. Yeah.

I mean, it was so, it was so drummed into me that that was going to ruin my life in every possible way that, like, I was just really disciplined. Like, I just never, I've never had a scare. I never, ever had a scare. I never had sex without protection. When I, so this guy that I was, the guy that I dated a little bit in high school, because it was, like, the first. first guy that I was, I always had crushes though, like from a young age, it's insane crush some people, but this guy was actually somewhat dating. And I knew that I wasn't ready to have sex. And he and I had already talked about it. And I had said, you know, I'm not ready. But my parents

were so, I don't know what, worried that they made an appointment for me to go sit down with my mom's gynecologist who had also delivered my sister and who was like a colleague of my dad's. So that's really like too inner circle, by the way. Like you shouldn't have your dad's colleague looking at your vagina. No, no, it wasn't an appointment. It was just to talk. Oh, okay, good. I started to feel very anxious for you.

Well, actually, later, though, he became my gynecologist. And he was so judgmental and so terrible that when I switched from him to this really lovely woman, I should have done this from the beginning. Yes. It shouldn't feel terrible. No, we should feel terrible to go to the doctor. Yes. And then literally expose yourself in the most vulnerable way possible. And look at it.

Right. And then feel terrible. Oh, my God. I had a guy like that when I was, when I first started going to OBGYN, and he, I was still a virgin. And God, this is a lot of minimum information. But I came in and I was like, he sat down. And I think, first of all, it was like, a, like, sexist, judgmental and maybe, like, moderately racist. Because I was like, you know, whatever, 14, 15 year old black girl.

And I was still a virgin. And he kept saying, oh, she's a good girl nurse. She's a good girl. This one's a good one. Gross. I was impulsive, disgusting. and I've never ever had a male and I'm not saying that all male OBG myons are crazy

but that was it, that was the one. I never, I had a woman from that point on and I'd have like the most amazing Obi-Wi-Wite. She's like, I want to take a shower. It's disgusting. I mean, it's so judgmental and creepy and girls and it just, it almost felt like it was like slightly like pedoph- Yes.

It was just grim. Right, because let's say you hadn't been a virgin, what would he have been saying? Oh, she's a naughty one. She's a dirty one. This one, dirty. I mean, it was just so grim. Yeah, totally.

So, yes. So, guys. don't have to worry about this stuff. Right. But they go to a doctor and right before he sticks his finger on your ass, he asks if you've ever had it done before they say, no. And they go, he's a good boy. So it's a good boy.

No. Never had a finger in the ass and don't know. Anyway, sorry. What I'm going to say? Who was it who told a story about, is it an Adam's story or is it someone else? Having a prostate exam and the guy being, the doctor being like, well, you know how this goes. I'm like, no, I absolutely do not.

I don't think it's Adam. Oh, my God. That's so funny, though. I know I've heard someone tell that story. Someone will tweet us and tell us who it was. Someone tweet us and tell us who it was. You know how this is great. Right.

Like, I don't. I honestly have never. So anyway, they thought I was about to become sexually active. So they wanted me to sit down. His name was Fritz. That was his first. I wanted me to sit down with Fritz and have Fritz. Give me the lowdown on STDs because my dad, my dad's quite a bit older.

He was already retired. and he felt like he was out of the game, so he didn't know what kind of crazy STDs there are. What stuff was going around? So he wanted Fritz to just give me an educational conversation about STDs. That's what they claimed that they wanted. And maybe they really thought that. But I think what Fritz heard was scared the bejesis out of her.

Right. Because as I sat there, I went from being, whatever I was, 16 and 17 to feeling like an emotional six-year-old again. Like I felt like I crawled inside my own butthole so much. Like I just, because I remember Fritz being like, now when you decide to have sex, I want you to call me up and tell me. And then we're going to put you on the birth control pill. Like he had like a whole whole action list of things to do. Because I remember thinking I thought that I would just, we would just use a condom when I'm ready, even though I know I'm not ready yet.

But he like was adamant that I get on the birth control pill and the this. And I remember him being like, anal sex, just don't do it. And I was like, I wasn't even considering it. Why are we talking about that now? And I remember also he talked about women coming in with stuff on the back of their throat, which were like warts from oral sex. And so then, fast forward to many years later when I actually did become sexually active, and one day I had a sore throat, and I looked at my throat, and I saw white dots, and I was like, oh, no.

So I called, because he was my gynaeculture at the time, and I called him up. And I remember I went in and he's like, oh, I don't know what that is. You'd have to get that cultured from like an ear, an nose and throat doctor. It turned out, of course, to be nothing. And then when I switched to the good gynecologist, the good female gynecologist, she said that in theory it's possible that you would get words on the back of the throat. But she referred to it as, quote unquote, a non-issue. So this guy was just trying to scare me. Scare the shit out of you.

But anyway, that's like a kind of classic, my parents stunt. I don't even understand. I can't even. Look, there's some mindset within which most of the stuff he said made sense. Right. I don't know why he was warning you against sales. sex. I know. Oh, but you know why? Because I think because the skin can tear a little more and so you're at higher risk. For STDs?

Yeah. I mean, probably back then, I think, I feel like AIDS is what everyone was so afraid of. Right, right, right. But it's not like I'm an anal sex advocate guys. I mean, do what feels right. But I'm just saying, like, with a condom, like, yeah, can I get pregnant? You know what I mean? Like, what do we get pregnant? You know what I mean? Like, what's the wrong? It's like, God's blind spot. What's the problem? God's flying. I never heard it called that and that is my favorite thing I've ever heard. God's my mind. Thank you. But for someone who is, who knows she's not ready to have sex and was very innocent, to have someone just hectoring her about anal sex, it's like, the whole thing was the opposite

of sex positive. Right. And like I said, it made me be like, I'm, okay, I'm just going to, I'm just going to go dormant for a few years because it's also scary. And my parents claim that wasn't what they wanted, but my mom did say, when I I talked to her about it years later, she's like, well, maybe he misunderstood what we wanted. Also, probably for them, the result was the same. And that was the outcome they wanted, which is that you didn't have sex. Right. Except that I wasn't, that's the thing, that I, that's what,

that's what frustrates me about this. Yeah. And maybe young people listening will relate to this. I think that adults who are sexually active can't remember or get it through their thick heads that, that not all teenagers are like that. Right. So to my parents, it's like, oh, she's dating this guy. It's just a matter of time. You know, it's just, she's a couple of, you know, it's just, she's a couple weeks away. Right, right. Whereas I knew I was really not ready yet. And I, I had already talked about it with the guy. Right, right. Yeah, that also may be, like, you know, the discomfort that adults have with talking about sex with kids. Like, I think my parents talk with me about it so much. I mean, their approach was like, we're going to give you books. I'm going to show you at work.

So, you know, that I felt super empowered. Like, I felt like, you know, and I'm not saying like every sexual encounter I had was like, you know, I'm an empowered woman and I'm choosing this for myself. Because, you know, when you're teenagers, you know, what the fuck you're doing. But I definitely know that like my sex life was like my own. Do you know what I mean? Like no one ever, that's so good. No guy ever like, squirled me into something. Right. That was because I just felt, I just knew, I just knew enough about it that I was like, this is my choice and it's my choice and it'll always be my choice. And I think that's like, probably the, you know, people out here who have kids. This is a very wide ranging episode. But like, is to like, don't assume, first of all, don't assume your kid is having sex, but don't assume

that they're not. And don't assume that not talking to them about it is going to prevent them from having it. Right. I think people like, they just don't want to talk about it because We're not teaching your kid's stuff is not guaranteeing they're not hearing about it from like a totally unvetted idiotic source. Exactly. I mean, and that's the friends or the internet. I think there's that idea that, you know,

keep sex education out of schools and you keep sex out of schools and that's crazy. And oh no. That's not how that works. But I do know that like they were so about it that like I just, all of my choices were like super informed. And I think, yeah, looking back,

I can't be like, I never, I never got like, you know, no one ever persuaded me to do it if I didn't want to do it. And I never felt like shame about it or bad about it. You know, like, oh, it's dirtier. It's wrong. You know, it's like, oh, sex is awesome. Good. Yeah. So there's that piece of personal information.

Well, good job, your parents. Good job, my parents. They didn't get it all right, but they dialed that one. They got that one right. Right. I was too busy getting fucked up. That's another story. Did you start drinking young?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally. Well, the statute of limitations is up. I think I started, I was like an early bloomer and then I went dormant later. Do you know what I mean? So I think I had my first beer maybe like in the eighth grade. I'm like a girlfriend stole a six pack of like Budweiser tall boys from her dad.

And then all the girls like went into one bathroom stole. And I think between all of us, we had like a third of a beer. You know what I mean? And it was not meaningful in any way. But no, that was maybe seventh grade. But yeah, I was partying by like freshman year of high school for sure. Like partying. Yeah.

But never, like, my parents also were like really good about talking about drugs. So like I, I partied, but like I never did anything like life threatening, you know? But yeah, I was like, I partied all the high school. By the time I got to college and everybody was starting to drink, I kind of done everything already. And I was kind of so like my colleges were not like super abusive. Right. Yeah. Getting drunk and vomiting.

Did that in high school. I remember I went to a party when I was, I think I was 15 because I wasn't driving yet. Yeah, so I was 15. It's like somehow I had snagged an invitation to a cool kid party. Yeah. So it was like it was the best weekend of, you know, of that semester or something. And. It was like can't hardly wait.

Yes. Yes. And I remember pouring and there was a ton of alcohol there. And I remember pouring out half of a Dr. Pepper, half of Dr. Pepper and filling up the rest with vodka. Oh my God. And thinking that was just, I'm just making a drink. Oh. But I don't, I didn't, I didn't, I don't remember being drunk.

drunk though. Right. Now granted, there was more of me to soak it up. I think I just didn't drink very much of it. Probably didn't finish it.

Yeah. Your idea of what is an appropriate amount of alcohol drink when you're young. You don't know. You have no idea. And I mean, I think of all the things that I did.

None of, you know, I never, like none of the more radical things were, it was just booze. Like, booze was the thing that could have like, because when your kid,

you're just like, it's funny to get drunk until you black out. It's hilarious to do beer bongs. Like all these things feel, you feel like you're immortal. You know, you don't realize that you could die.

I don't know how it was for you, but I didn't get a hangover to us like 30. Yeah. Yeah. Now, you know, one drink. And I'm like, oh, I'm sluggish today. Well, we didn't even cover. First of all, this is so amazing.

You're so much fun to talk to. Oh, thank you. I have had so much fun. It's time for self-inflicted wounds, I think. Yes, it is. Oh, I know. Before we do self-inflicted wounds, one question. So you have, you were thrust out of the nest,

and now you are on your own, and you're doing your show on your own. I am. terms and I wonder if you're approached to the show other than the fact that it's more intimate now and you're doing it at home but now you have two shows on two days it's a different show now well I had that before I did have I have the but um part of the whole craziness of how it all shook out was my Thursday show it was all people that when I did it was me and you and it was like one other person maybe or was it just your engineer right yeah yeah but then the Thursday show had a bunch of of guys

that work over there on the show, including my producer, who worked there as well. And when the separation first happened, they all wanted to continue on my show, and they were told it was okay. And then they came and did one show, and it was so much fun, and it felt so good. And it was like the highlight of that week. And then they all found out they were not allowed to appear on my show. And the way I found out was like, they just weren't returning my emails. And it was like, but they weren't returning my emails. so I began to suspect something was up.

But then I heard from like three, and this just should be a lesson in how nothing is airtight. I heard from three different people who had heard from other people what was actually happening. So when I finally got the call, I already knew what was going on. So very quickly I had to find new people. So it is a different show now,

although it's still a show that comes out on Thursday. But it really, but it is different because it's different people. Right. Yeah. So, but I don't think it's really changed that much. I mean, I think I'm reinvigorated. Although it's not like I wasn't, that suggests I was de-invigorated, which I don't think is a word before. Disinvigorated?

Uninvigorated. Okay. I feel like disinvigorated. One of those. Yeah. There wasn't that before, but I think that when everything went down in January, it suddenly gave me this really, like, laser focus on I have to very quickly put my own thing together. And we didn't miss an episode.

You know, I didn't skip a beat. And that's a minute I'm really proud of. Yeah, you should be. That's extraordinary. And it's doing, you know, and I, the company that used to sell my ads, I'm no longer with them. And I found a different company, and I'm really happy with them. And a new producer, engineer, who I'm really happy with. And, yeah, everything's going well.

What was I saying, though? Just that it gave me... That it gave you the super... Right. Yeah. Yeah. Although now... And now that it's kind of calmed down

and there isn't that, like, for a while it felt like every day was a new battle. Mm-hmm. Which was exciting and scary, but exciting. And that's gone away a bit. You had a big problem to solve. Yes. Like, yeah.

Which I didn't choose, but suddenly it was like every day had this shape. Right. Which I really, like I said, enjoyed, though, because there was this sameness that, sameness that had crept in after having done the same thing for four years. So I was ready for it all of a sudden to be like,

the stakes are high, and so many people are watching and what's going to happen. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's exciting. And there may, you know, like with great, this is not the right phrase, when the great power comes great responsibility. So that's not exactly what I wanted to say,

but there is something about like taking full possession of your own output that can really be engaging in a different way. And like you said, invigorating and you feel invested on a different level with what you're doing. Right. And at the beginning, I was doing more than I am now for the show because I had, the guy that is my producer now was sort of helping. There were a couple, there was a little, there was a bit of lag time. And even though I knew that I was going to, well, actually, now I'm all over the place. Let me say, I'm going to back out of that sentence and say what I'm going to say what I'm going to say. I decided I want to learn how to do this myself, so I'm not depending on anyone.

Yes, yes. So let me just co-sign that by saying, you know, I do the show by myself. And people always like, you need to get people to do it. I'm like, well, it's not that I wouldn't appreciate it, it would have made my life easier, but I never want to be dependent on anybody else. Yes. You know, I need to be able to turn this out. all on my own, especially, you know, if you have a crazy schedule, you just, you don't, you don't want to ever be rendered powerless by somebody else's lack of response.

Oh, yes, exactly, exactly times a million. So I thought, I'm going to learn how to do this all myself so that I'm never in a position again of not being able to do it. And it, it was fun to learn. And it wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be. That's the thing, is that stuff that in the past, I always felt like, sorry to ask you to do this, but could you blah, blah, blah. I was like, I shouldn't have been, you know, I really wasn't asking very much. This is really quite easy.

Right, exactly. That being said, now that I'm working with this guy, Jeff, I have stopped engineering it on my own because that really is a skill, and he's very good at that. So now, so I have started handing more things over to him. I still am, you know, posting each specific episode and doing some of the stuff that my producer was doing,

before. So I'm more involved, but I'm letting Jeff handle more of it. But at least I know how if I need to. Yeah, exactly. And that can be very, again, also very re-indigrating because I know, I know what this is. I know what it is. I think it's always good if you're like the captain of a ship to know everybody else's job, not just because you might have to do it, but just because it's easier to communicate them than what you need. And, you know, you just have a better understanding of how things come together. Right. Well, and like we talked about, you know, that Crowell Digital is set up in a way that is similar to terrestrial. radio and when you're there you it's nice to have all that and you begin to think you need all

that but it would always and whenever guests would come in there like this is amazing I'm like I know and I can say I know because it's it's not like I'm taking responsibility for it I know you're part of it yeah yeah yeah I mean I yes it's like it's a majestic studio and warehouse but it would always dawn on me but there are people who are making really good podcasts who are doing it at home in their garage right so this is not all necessary, even though it's nice to have. Right, right. So in that way, I think it was just, yeah, I want it to be able to be one of those people

if need me. Absolutely. Okay, now let's just up with the ones. Okay, so as I was saying earlier, late bloomer did not know how to be around guys, overweight, all the cool things, not a popular kid. All coming together in a magical blossom. And when a guy paid attention to me, I was just like, this is the best feeling in the world. And I'm now obsessed with you.

And I love you. And I want to be around you all the time. So I started seeing this guy. I was 19. He was 27. This is the guy that I ultimately lost my virginity to. He never really wanted anything serious. but I didn't, I don't, I didn't have,

I wasn't like fluent enough in the language of dating to understand that sometimes things are just flings, sometimes they're casual. Right. I just heard what he was saying and I'm like, it's over my head, over my head, over my head, over my head, let's hang out. I didn't get it. And like, I'm casual, I can be casual, I feel casual. Right.

Cool. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was, oh, for years and years and years, I was always, is like the coolest chick. I'm so cool with everything. And only at a certain point did I realize that that's not doing me any favors.

And it's not doing, and that's not really what they want either. Right. But anyway, and I also think that I was part of the generation that was like, if you like someone, let them know. Girls can ask guys out, which of course they can, but now, you know, at a certain point I arrived at

where I think culture probably is now, which is you can, but it doesn't really work. Like just let the guy pursue you. It's just going to be easier. So all of that is sort of extraneous, though. It's just setting up the mindset that I was in. So really, I had hooked up with this guy a couple times, really liked him, was hanging out with him, and I wanted to do something sexy.

And that was the beginning of the embarrassment. And I should say, like I said, overweight at the time. And I don't. know why this is this is embarrassing what I'm about to say now I've across the board I find bras to be so uncomfortable yeah it's the first thing I want to take off when I get home I can't wait to get that thing off when I get home I fling it across the room like it owes me money yes now whenever I go on television I will wear the kind of bra that I feel like my mom would be like you should be wearing that all the time which would be like an under like a you know underwire thing with padding that

pushes everything up one of those hydraulic situations I just can't stand underwire in my private life. I can't. So every, the bra that I find, a bra that I find comfortable is one. And plus I was, I was overweight, but pretty flat chested. So it's like I didn't really need that much anyway. So a bra that I would find comfortable is just like, it looks like a handkerchief. You kind of tie around your fat body. And especially, I think, like my sister has a very large chest. And she, if she could sleep in a bra, I think she would. Yeah. And so, that's so interesting, because I, I, I, I, I, If I ever fall asleep in a bra and I wake up in the morning and I realize I had it, I feel cheated. I feel robbed of proper sleep, right?

Right. That night didn't count because I did not rest, actually. I was, like, bound up by some terrible, like, instrument of doom. I think if you have a big chest, if you're on the larger size chest-wise, yes, then you find it more comfortable and you find it uncomfortable and you find it uncomfortable to not be wearing a bra, which I can't even relate to. So I think it's because, so imagine, like, fat girl, not much going on. in the chest region, wearing, like, a piece of binding fabric. It's just a lot of just discomfort. So I, and I, so, but these, like, I had these white Warner bras that were just, it's just a

hint of bra. It was barely did anything. And because I always wore black, and today I am wearing primarily black, because I always wore black, these, and these bras were white, they would get dyed like a gray color, even though I would wash them. So they were gray. So anyway, and, but on this night, I mean, to set the scene.

Wearing faded jeans, and probably there was like a hole in the knee, which I had made with sandpaper because that was a cool thing to do. Brown Doc Martins and this oversized, because I was thought if I wear a super oversized shirt, then I'll look smaller, you know, oversized yellow, like burlap material shirt that I bought probably in the men's section of urban outfitters. I always look like I was trying to join a punk band. So this is a guess. So we're Doc Martins and like jeans.

Yeah. And this oversized yellow men's like burlap shirt that had twine around the buttons and stuff. It was like to twine trim. Very sexy. Yeah. Oh, and I always, I often wore like a long necklace because I thought it just dragged the eye down. Makes you look more lean. So anyway, I'm sitting there wanting to do something sexy.

But I am like an alien suddenly around earthlings, and I don't know how to do that. So what I decide will be sexy will be slip off my bra. And remember, this bra is like a flimsy gray thing that's like has beat it up and just. Is it like the string, like the strings, you know, with straps like where they're kind of thin? No, because that could be cute. They work like kind of thick, but everything's very stretchy. Right. And, like, I feel like it was probably called, like, Warner's, you know, 18-hour bra or something.

Oh, God, one of those. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, something that your mom would wear. Yes. So I slip off super unsexy bra and I fling it at him. And I see this, like, gray bandana flying through the air. And on its way, I think, this isn't sexy.

And it, like, bounces off of him and then just flops onto, uh, the bed, we're sitting on a bed, but like watching TV. It was not sexy. And I don't know what I thought was going to happen, but he looks at it, and he looks at me, and he goes, say, bra.

And I said, yeah? And then he goes, you're over-the-shoulder, boulder holder? This is the guy that I like. And I said, uh-huh. And I think he said, is it uncomfortable? Like totally not picking up

that I'm trying to make sexy time happen. Right, right. And I said, yeah. Yeah, it is uncomfortable. But I just remember like crawling over there and picking it up and bringing it back to me. Just putting it back to you.

Yeah. It was watching TV. Yes, nothing happened. Oh my God. Oh, my God. Two more, this is a self-inflicted wounds triumvirate. Okay, excellent. Two more things that happened with this guy.

Because eventually we were sleeping together. So I remember I was in his bathroom and we were about to go to sleep, which is when, you know, the sex would happen. And I realized that I hadn't put on any deodorant. I was like, oh, no, I have a slightly natural scent. So at this time of my life, I wore like oil from body shop and a couple different musks. They were my favorite. I had a few different musks there. I remember the musk line.

The white musk and the Japanese musk. And I remember I looked through my purse, which was a miniature backpack, because those were really cool, you know. And I was like, oh, few. I have my body shop musk with me. And I just remember dabbing the little, like, dabber under my, like, putting, like, just coating my armpits with this musk. And he didn't say anything, but I'm sure when it was like, oh, my God, who spilled a bottle of that that's mixing with your rank fat girl smell? Musks. Yes.

No, like, yes. Like three musks, the Japanese musk and then the personal musk. Oh, my God. And then lastly, he didn't, this should have been a sign. But his brother was picking him up because they were working a construction job that day. And he didn't want his brother to meet me because, and I'm not concealing any aspect of this. I'm so sure he doesn't follow me. What if he's a fan of you, though?

Oh, well. Oh, well. You haven't mentioned his name. Right. But I'm just saying like all these details. I'm not, he didn't want, he told me he didn't want his brother to know about me because he had been codependent in his last relationship, in his last relationship, which I don't believe was true. And so he was just like, he didn't want his brother to know that he was, you know, seeing someone because he's trying not to be codependent or something. I was like, oh.

So I was. this was around the point where I was getting miffed at so many. Like our relationship was so weird. It wasn't even a relationship. It was weird. It was kind of like hooking up. It was hucking up and I wasn't being treated the way I wanted to be.

Even though I think he was kind of saying, you know, telling me, I sort of knew the score. Right. But there was like a weird years later I look back at my diary where I recorded all this stuff. And I was like, oh, it wasn't completely that I was misreading everything. There was a lot of push pull there. Right. So anyway, though, there's a couple more to find aspects of what's about to happen.

So his brother goes to pick him up And I'm like, I'm tired of this bullshit. I'm going to march out there to my car so his brother sees me. But here's the way I marched out. I grabbed my pillow, which apparently I brought with me from my dorm. Oh, my God. That's the part. I can't believe.

And because I was really into geometric patterns, like everything was like real saved by the bell with me, you know, like squiggly. My pillow was just black and white checked. and very bright. Like you did like a traffic, like a police line or traffic line. So I just remember grabbing my pillow and marching out to my car. I must have looked like like some crazy lioness or something. Just carrying your pillow.

Yeah. And I don't, again, I don't remember. It wasn't like I said, I think maybe I waved, but I just looked really angry. I had this angry look on my face, like an angry, crazy girl with her pillow. The part to me that's mortifying, well, all of these are mortifying, but the mortifying part is why did I bring my pillow?

Right. That's so lame. He had pillows. But I'm like, was it just that you could only sleep on this pillow or that you were trying to mark your territory? Like, you're like... I think I just thought it was an okay thing to do, sort of like flinging my bra at him. It just seemed like, I don't know, like I'm not going to burden you by needing a pillow. I have, I don't know.

It just so crazy. You're like, I don't really need you that much. I mean, I'm a sleeper, but I'm bringing my own pillow. Right. I'm good. I can, I don't need, like, that much from you. Just. Well, I remember the first night we ever hooked up in the middle of the night,

I put my clothes back on jeans and shirt. And in the morning, he said to me, are you bitter? This whole thing is so 90s, you know? Oh, God. Seriously. So be bitter. And I said, no, I was just cold, which was not true. Right.

The truth was. I was embarrassed and so uncomfortable in my own skin. Right. I didn't feel comfortable being naked. So I just wanted to have something on when we woke up, not realizing the message that sends. Right. But you're fully clothed. Yeah.

We're in jeans. In jeans. In the bed. Right. Suggest the message that maybe, I mean, suggest that maybe I wasn't cool with everything, even though I was like so cool with everything. Right. It's the coolest.

I'm the coolest. I'm the coolest. Right. Hey, I bring my own pillow. See, yes. And then, and then like there's, like, there's a part of it's like, where you were planning on like sneaking out of her in the middle of the night, which also is, by the way, that's the move.

That's always the move. If you really want someone to think that you don't give a shit to sneak out, I know. Because it doesn't matter what your feelings are. All they know is that you weren't fucking there when they woke up. But that could be good, even if it's good, like, it implies like, I don't need to sleep with you. I can, I only, I just needed you for sex.

And I'm going to go back to my own bed. Where are my checker pillows await? Why hadn't I listened to this at the time? I would have been a great. much advice. Great source of advice for you on how to act as if you could, don't give a fuck. But the thing is, I suspect that there even were people trying to get through to me. But I would have just heard that and been like, but then I'm depriving myself of four more hours with him. Why would I want to do that? Right. Right. Exactly. But we, we, oh, oh, leper.

So much, so much ickiness regarding the person I was. Oh my God. But you know, you have to just live through it, right? Like, you just, there's nothing to do but to just, like, put your head down and, like, get through. Right. And hopefully learn from it. And realize that almost everybody, like, for every person that you were with who, like, was ambivalent or awful, they were in love with someone who's ambivalent and awful towards them. That's the truth. I am just amazed by people who are just naturally cool and just knew how to do everything. Right. But they're always that way until they fall in love and then they turn into it and then they melt do you know what I mean like and maybe there are people moving from the world who never fall in love which I feel this like just pretty fucking sad and like hate to sound like the end of the notebook but I mean you know it's like like that again we were talking this is what we were saying the beginning like a natural like an indivisible aspect like a lovely and terrible and meaningful aspect of being alive is falling in love you know and and and then also heartbreak right with those two things are inseparable they have to be a part of who we are as as human beings and and I it just seems so sad that there are people who are kind of depriving themselves of the very

wide pendulous emotional swings of falling in love and having your heartbroken. And the falling in love part is amazing. And having your heartbroken thing is terrible. But like it would be so sad to kind of go through life like always at 50. Yeah. Just like, you know, always like, you know, it's like no, with like no, no wave, just like straight line. Right, right. Although when you're in that thing, in that like independent place of not being affected by

anyone else, it feels very strong. You feel strong. I know that for, you know, after, you know, after years and years of bad relationships, I was like, I can't do this anymore. Right. I am not, I wasn't put on this earth to be someone's nervous girlfriend. Right. I got to get my shit together. So I read self-help books and went to, I mean, I went to therapy.

I was going to therapy before that, too, though. But I really tried to change, to change my patterns. Mm-hmm. And during that time, I felt. felt so good and empowered and alive and like I was productive that it was hard later to switch back out of that. Like, I do not need anyone ever thing. And that's actually something that I, sorry, I know, I know this is getting long and I'm just like, no, no, no, no. That's something that I find now that my emotions are all over the place that I struggle with in marriage, which I didn't struggle with at the beginning of being married.

but this thing of I used to be an independent, non-needy person what happened? How do I balance this? I don't ever, I don't want to be needy and clingy. I don't want to be that person.

But when you are married and you are going through something, you do turn to the other person. Which is like, you know, part of the deal with marriage, right? That's what they're there for is to like be available to you

when you need them. Right. But yeah, but then you fall into patterns where like, you know, they do this thing and I do this thing and these are the roles we fill And I don't mean gender roles, just the roles we fill in the relationship.

Someone's organized one. Someone's the one. Someone's the one who sues the other person when they're emotional. Right. Someone's weak, someone's strong. Exactly. And you can get into those patterns and then wake up and like you said, be like, when did I become a person who didn't know how to change a fucking light bulb? Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? Right. When did I become a person who, when I'm trying to comfort myself turns so much outside. Right. When I used to be able to do this for myself. Exactly. Right. And now I'm so reliant on this other person to soothe me.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. No, that could be a very frightening thing about a marriage. Yes. About a relationship, period, is like meeting somebody. Yeah. Which is why so many people avoid it and turn into like cool robots. Right.

You know. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it's something I feel like I'm navigating like right now. Right. But it's good that you're seeing it, that you're aware of it. Yeah. And I'm just kind of like falling back into like this weird, you know, dependent.

Hopefully I would, could never be that person entirely. Yeah. I mean, I think that we can always be triggered and, you know, younger versions of ourselves are always in there. But God, I hope I'm never that. I hope I'm never fully that person again. Just decide not to me though. Yeah. You know what I mean? Right. You're already aware of it. So that's half the battle. Yeah. G.I. Joe would say. Um, this was so great. I had so much fun. Thank you so much for having me on. It was wonderful talking to you. Proving the theorem I advanced earlier in the show that you are a delightful person to talk to. Thank you. Hooray.

That was Allison Rosen. And wasn't that the greatest? It was. It was just great. God, we talked about stuff we've never talked about on the show before. I'm not a big relationship person, but somehow all that stuff was floating in my head and her head, and it was so fun to talk about. And I like that it was balanced. It wasn't just about, you know, how chicks feel or how dudes feel. I think we kind of covered all our bases. I hope you enjoyed it.

I loved it. There is no apologia for this show, not one thing to apologize for. I'm especially proud of the fact that Allison used the word catastrophizing, which I didn't even know was a real word, but now I do. So that was just great. and I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. You guys are the greatest. Come follow me, friend me, Facebook me, Tumblr, me, all these things.

Isha Tyler, Girl on Guy, Courage and Stone. Come say hi, go to Girlengai.com. Click on the envelope. Send me a letter. It's never too early to send me a letter for the annual All-Listner Question Show, which happens at the end of the year. And don't forget, now is your opportunity to get ready to enter the contest for tickets

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