Girl on Guy with Aisha Tyler - girl on guy 189: robert lasardo

Episode Date: June 18, 2015

join robert lasardo of the new film anarchy parlor and aisha as they drill through old relations, new families, tough love, the marks of experience, the power of story, and transcending circumstance.�� girl on guy wants to tattoo you.

This is Girl on Guy. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Girl on Guy 189. Welcome to the show. It is officially summer. So many things happening, including this week, the E3 conference. Now, if you're listening to the show, E3, my part of it anyway, has already happened. But you can go back and watch the live press conference announcing all the new games in development and debuting in the coming weeks and months by going to YouTube. com slash Ubisoft.

That's always a fun time. If you like video games, you get to see trailers for the new games. brand new IP and a bunch of big fun surprises. So you can check that out if you're interested in what happened at this year's E3 UBSoft press conference. go to YouTube.com slash Ubisoft to check that out. Very few weeks left in the season that is season four of Hurlangai. And this summer, for me specifically, Comic-Con is coming up. The contest is over.

If one you have or will receive a notification letting you know about that in the very morsels of time between now and later than now. You'll be hearing from us very soon. And that event is going to be in San Diego on Saturday, July 11th. So thanks to everybody who entered many, many more people entered than we had space for. And that's lovely in a testament to how awesome the Army is. And I can't wait to meet everybody who did win in San Diego on July 11th. It's going to be a great time. It always is lots of fun. So I just want to appreciate everybody who entered. And even if you didn't win, it doesn't mean it'll appreciate you. You're awesome. and every single one of you is a very, very special member of the Army, so thank you for all that.

Tales of the Cocktail, soon after that, we'll be promoting Courage and Stone, and then, Girl and Guy, as you know, goes on hiatus for the month of August to return in mid to late September with brand new episodes. Lots of good things going to happen before then, though. So keep your ear pressed to the ground. I don't know why you're supposed to do that. I don't think you'd hear anything unless maybe either horses galloping towards you or a train coming, in which case, in both of those cases, get the fuck out of the way. All right. This episode is brought to you in part by Birch Box Man. And Birch Box Man is a very cool

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You're letting Birchbox know that their money is well spent by advertising on this show. So check it out. Birchbox.com. promo code Girl on Guy. Check it out. This episode of Girl on Guy is with Robert Lassardo. And if you don't know the name, you definitely know the man because

Robert is a character actor who has been in so many movies and television shows. He is instantaneously recognizable. And you will hear right at the beginning of the interview, he has painted almost fully right up to his neck in gorgeous art, much of which represents experiences and times in his life that were instrumental or particularly seminal. He is a really interesting guy, thoughtful, intense, with a really layered and challenging a life story that I think is informed as acting in his life in many, many ways. So I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. It is wide-ranging.

It is complex. It is thoughtful. It's very art-driven, and I think it's going to be great. I know you're going to love it. If you want to know what Robert looks like, because, like I said, he is one of the most recognizable character actors out there working today, just Google Robert Lassardo or go to Go on Guy.net where you can see a photo and get more information about Robert. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Go on Go on 189 with the actor and writer Robert Lassardo

coming at you straight out of the Girl on Guy Bunker and Ride Bunker and ride into your face. We're going to get right into it. Robert Lassardo. Welcome to my show. Oh, it's lovely to be here. I'm thrilled to have you. I'm going to stay off the bat for people who don't recognize Robert's name that you have seen him in so many movies that it's it's almost like a travesty that you know the guy's name i mean he's he's just he is probably i think one of the most visually iconic actors working right now and you just know him from a million things so um if you're listening and you're excited about the conversation go look at pictures of him and you'd be like that guy who's been in so many movies i can't

list them yeah wonderful it's so sweet of you to say that it's it's exciting to have you here you're humbling me I'm being humbled. Before we do the thing where we talk about your childhood, I think we might as well do talk about the most obvious thing because you are a very distinctive-looking artist. And, you know, I'm sure you have this conversation a lot, and I don't want to belaborate if you're bored of it. But Robert has a lot of tattoos.

He's essentially tattooed on almost every surface of his body except for his face. And I wonder, I guess I wonder, first of all, Robert, when you got your first tattoo? I was How old was I? I was 17. And

here's the interesting thing is that in the 1970s in New York City tattooing was illegal. Really? Yeah. There weren't, you know, I haven't been to New York

in quite a while, but my understanding is that tattoo shops are everywhere. Everywhere. You know, pizzerias. Yeah. So it's interesting, you know, flash, you know,

flash forward into the 21st century to consider that when I was tattooed that it was a situation was you'd go into somebody's house. You'd go into a basement. And when I was first tattooed, it was in an apartment building and some backroom somewhere with a bunch of scary looking guys. One guy, I remember, he was sitting there a bit pensive or maybe he was just frustrated. I don't know what was going on, but he had a knife in his hand. And he kept stabbing his boots. you know and I thought okay this is

okay this is yeah so um so my first tattoo 17 years old in some guys apartment

house in the back room another guy stabbing his boot and a chair no plastic gloves no none of the you know the medical per cursory precautions

and another stuff was out the window because it didn't exist a rag that the tattoo who are just placed on his lap. Right. The same rag that he probably used to everybody else. To wipe the ink away. To wipe the stuff away, the blood, the ink, the all of the stuff, the plasma.

And so, yeah, and that was my first experience in the realm of tattoo. Today, you know, everybody has tattoos, you know, Miley Cyrus. I mean, you know, it's so common. But just listening to how that happened, it must have taken a lot of bravery. And I wonder what impact. held you to get your first tattoo, like what was going on in your life that you felt you wanted to go into this back room and have this done? Well, you know, it's a good question.

I think it's a combination of things that I would also realize later on in life. But I think in that timeline, a lot of it had to do with coming to terms of identity. And I think that because a lot of the earlier life, my earlier life as a, you know, adolescence and childhood, There was so much fragmentation in terms of family unit and feeling a bit lost in space in relationship to conventional structures because I was wandering the street when I was about seven years old. So I think when I found myself in a situation with other young men like myself who also came from similar backgrounds on the street,

we formed, you know, we're not even... It was a... It was the closest thing to a family. that I knew. And I trusted these young men because like myself, we didn't need to talk about it. You just knew you were in this,

that it was a vibration present, whether it was frustration, a sense of the rebellious nature. We all understood that something had happened that had placed us on the periphery of society in terms of social experience, interacting.

So we reveled in the outcast, the outlaw. this idea of the social pariah, you know. And so, and a lot of these young, some of these young men who were older than me had already been in situations with the law where they've been to jail or been through the system. And one thing I noticed about them also is that they had tattoos. And as I got to know them, at first, I was uncomfortable because I didn't know if I was going to catch a beat down or not, if I was going to be accepted and what kind of ritual

and indoctrination I'd have to go through to be accepted, you know. know. But I knew one thing was that I'd already been through so much shit my life already, that I was ready to meet that task and to embrace them because I was so hungry for something real that I could relate to and be able to communicate that, whether it was with words, with fists, with, I don't know, whatever it took to prove, I guess, to myself and to those around me that I was in the right place. And so I think once I developed those relationships, then the next part of it was, well, Rob, hey, when you're going to get when you're going to get tatted, man, when you want to come to

this guy's place, this guy's house, and get some tattoo work done. And I thought, and it's ironic, as I sit here talking to you about this, I was the guy who said, nah, I don't want to, I'm never getting any tattoos, famous last words, you know. Yeah. So, but then after

a while, I started to, I was fascinated by it because I came, I think so much had been taken away already, Aisha, so much had been removed. So many things have been broken in my

life, personal life, and the structures of my life that when I looked at the tattoo, what most people would examine as the permanence, the fear of being committed to something like that made complete sense to me. It was the one thing that I saw that

I felt comfortable with, the permanence of it, because I got the sense that everything around me since, you know, I could conceptualize myself as a, you know, as a human being was anything but permanent. It was always this like this whirlwind of experience where I'm here, now I'm there, and the structures of my life are now collapsing again, and now we're, you know, and then we move on to the next drama play. So the tattoo was the structure that I was looking for that could not

be removed that was in place and you couldn't fake on it back then because it wasn't a trend, It wasn't a fashion statement. It wasn't something. You had to be able to be able to be able to own up to it because in New York City during that time, it wasn't cool. You put that on your body. You might as well write fuck the world. You know, you may, you know, so it was authentic in that

I didn't really care at that point what people thought of me. I just knew that I found some people that accepted me, received me, didn't judge me like so many others had. And then the next part of that experience was, well, okay, brother, initiation time. Let's get the tattoo done. And it was interesting, one of the rituals after the tattoo, you'd go and all the guys would gather around and say, hey, Rob, let me see, let me see your tattoo. And you lift your shirt up and they'd look at it and they go, okay, brother, here's the baptism.

And they all line up and punch the fresh tattoo. Oh, God. It's worth enough to get tattooed and deal with that. you know, embrace the pain and all that, good stuff. You had to also get baptized so that you were officially indoctrinated. In, right, a second mark. Did, was the tattoo, did everybody get the same tattoo in this group? No?

It varied, depending on personality types, I think. As I, you know, in retrospect, as I considered various personalities in the group, I think some of the tattoos reflected, you know, how they saw maybe themselves. You know, one of my friends, he had, I think, a Yosemite Sam tattoo holding guns, outlaw, you know, with some lettering underneath saying, back off. Yeah. Because he was that kind of guy. John was a cool guy.

I love John. I trust my life with John, but don't piss John off. Right. Back off. Right. And his guns were always loaded. He wasn't confronting anything, you know. But at the same time, he was, here's the dichotomy.

Here's the paradox. He was very charming. Like a lot of these guys, they were charming. And they were street smart. and they understood things. They had soul power. And I think for me, that's what I, I think that's what lives within me now

and helps me navigate through, I guess, aspects of our world that are a little bit polished and contrived and a little plastic. Or can devour you on some level, devour you psychologically or psychologically in ways that you don't want to be devoured. So where do you go, right?

You go back to that. You find that place that you know is you can't fake on, you can't fake on yourself. Right. And it can't be taken from you. I mean, that's the thing. Well, you touched very specifically on your childhood.

So let's talk about your childhood. And I want to say also for people that don't know, obviously Lissardo is an Italian name, but when people see you play Latino a lot in movies, but you are of Italian-American heritage. Well, here's the thing that's, you know, it's interesting that you bring this up, because all of this is a bit of an anomaly to me,

and I tell you why. you know, when I go through customs and I travel around, they want to know if I'm, when they look at my passport, it says, you know, U.S., United States.

So I don't, it's interesting that when I, when I have to legally claim or have some type of frame of reference for self, whatever hell that is, you know, it's, you know, you're, you're American.

Yeah. You know, but interesting, when I look in the mirror, you know, it's a moot point because I don't always know what I'm looking at depending on what kind of disposition. But to answer the question specifically,

the name La Sardo, I think my understanding, it is definitely an Italian name and I think its translation is because Sardo is Sardinia and so the Sardinian, okay? And so as I mentioned earlier, childhood experience was a bit fragmented. The family tree was thrown into the

into the furnace a bit early. Were you born in New York? I was born in Brooklyn. Okay. Born in Brooklyn, New York. And placed in foster care for a brief period of time, stint. How old were you? I was a child, a baby.

So very early on, you don't remember it? No, I was told later on by some individuals that were on the periphery of the family, what was left of the family structure, and gave me some intel, you know, on the download, like, please don't tell them that I told you this. And so, yeah, I found out that that was the case. Did you know why? When you heard later? There was concern for my safety.

Your parents weren't safe? There was a bit of instability within the framework of the physical structures of family and the mental structures of family. Makes sense? Yeah, well, it does. And we talked a lot on this show with various guests about their parents, specifically just had somebody on and talked about the fact that his father died of a drug overdose. We've had people who have had family members on.

who had psychological problems. You know, it's hard when you're a child, you're affected by these things that are completely out of your control. Sometimes you carry that forward in a way that makes you anxious about what it says about you, but it says nothing about you, right? Because it had nothing to do with you.

It's projection. I mean, if the matriarch or patriarch is unstable, if the all-provider, you know, the maternal tit and the milk is poison and sourcing. hour and you suck on that and then you you know you you're contaminated by any number of variables that are passed on from the you know from that and it's not their fault i don't know it's definitely not their fault and it's definitely not your fault no so i think but as a child you absorb i guess like a sponge right you absorb a lot of that right then you have the rest of your life if you survive the rest

of your life to put the pieces of that broken glass back together and try to make you know and create something but in regards to the you know the conventions of structure how we can reference Robert, Lassardo, Lassardo means the Sardinian, but here's the thing. Biological father, because I have, I, I tend to kind of dance around some of these conventional terms, who's like buzzwords for me. And I don't, I don't, I'm not, I'll tell you what I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a fundamentalist, meaning that I don't get attached to labels too much, because I find that I can't really locate who a human being is in their fabric, physical and internal fabric by understanding what

tribe they belong to. Because I'm constantly shown contrary to that program that it's incorrect. But specifically regarding me as a zip code, a social security number, a tribe, a bloodline, a DNA, my understanding is that biological father never knew his father. He was illegitimate. His mother, my biological grandmother, married another man whose name was LaSalleys. Lassardo, John Lassardo, so it was basically a legal name. So it's anybody's guess in terms of bloodlines. I was told by certain people in the past, many years ago that my biological grandmother was part Cherokee Indian.

So there's any number of bloodlines running through me based on one. So there's some Italian, yes. There's also Swiss German, Native Americans, some Spanish-American, whatever you want to call it. It's just derivative. So there's a combination of things because when I was in Russia, not Russia, when I was in Lithuania, some of the locals said to me, hey, Robert, I didn't know you're an American actor. I thought you're one of the locals. So it's interesting. Everywhere I go, I become a local. Well, where you're a chameleon, aren't you? I guess it comes a little bit.

With the territory. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You move around when you're a child. Like when I was a child, we moved around so much. There was so much of this kind of bohemian, just kind of, you know, vagabond experience. Yeah, I went from one community to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next, and I had to learn to assimilate, adapt quickly.

And so I got, I think it was very, actually a wonderful experience for me. A bit confusing, though, in terms of, I. of identity, right? But it helped me understand all the different aspects of socialization in terms of, you know, different cultures and what that was all about. You know, so when I went to school when primarily, you know, one of the schools was mostly Latino and African American, you know, one of the brothers was like, yeah, why are you hang out with this white boy for?

And the guy in my defense said, hey, Rob's not white, Rob's black. So that was trippy, you know. So it's, and it's part of my DNA because. these were my brothers that were looking out for me. Right. You know, but then I was snatched out of that circumstance, placed in another circumstance, you know? Tell me why. It was trippy, man.

Why that was happening to you? You said we moved around a lot. Were you moving around with one of your parents, with a relative? Yeah, I was moving around with my biological father at the time. He was able to, he was looking at some, he was struggling with the legal system, let's just say. And once we got free of that, we were able to secure a situation and kind of live on the road in a car. Actually, a Volkswagen. a bus.

Okay. He had converted. How old were you? Nine years old. Okay. Did it feel like an adventure? There were aspects of it that were extremely adventurous and fun and exciting. You know, hey, where we're going to sleep tonight?

Right, right. What campsite are we going to, where we're going to, who are we going to stay with? Where are we going to go? Where are we going to sleep? You know, I remember laying in the middle of a forest, sleeping, you know, grabbing hold of my father because I thought I was going to die from hypothermia. it was so cold one night. So that part, it was a bit challenging,

but, you know, you know, it was, you make, you make, you, you find ways to make it interesting, or, you know, as a child, at least to the imagination of a child, you find all sorts of ways to adapt, you have to, you know. And what I found more challenging than dealing with Mother Nature putting us to the test was when we did camp out at various sites and move around, I'd have to check into school every now, then. And when I go to these different

schools, what was, I think, more disconcerting and more disorienting and laborious in dealing with other people with some of these kids, man, and the mentality. Because I'd go from, you know, New York City and

some of the, you know, uh, situations, you know, impoverished situations. And then we go upstate, maybe someplace. And the mentality of the young kids reflected the parents. And so I didn't feel comfortable in some of those situations. And the way I was received was like, you know, the freak, the outsider.

You know, I felt like I could feel them projecting the prejudice, kind of prejudice onto me that I didn't understand, you know. And so that part, I think, was more difficult than dealing with, you know, moving around. That was actually fun at times. But having to jump from one community to another to another to another and then explain myself to various tribes of the world, whether they were racist communities or communities that say,

hey, Rob, come hang with us, man. We get you, brother. We get you. Come with us. But then there's other communities like, what the fuck are you, man? What planet are you from? Your parents, your father's fucking weird.

Who's that woman he's with? You live where? So there's always these questions. So everywhere I went, it was kind of like, you know, get out of here. You know, with the exception of a few places in Brooklyn or in New York City. Back in the 70s, New York. I'm not talking about 21st century, New York now, Disneyland.

I'm talking about John Lennon, 1970s, New York. You know, and people, and so I got a lot of love, given that some of the situations I walked into that first, I was wondering if I was going to survive the day at school when you'd see cats chasing each other with knives trying to stab each other to death, where you walk down into the subway and some of the brothers are waiting here

to knock you out and take your train pass. You learn quickly to adapt and survive and gain respect. so that you can move forward and then embrace that experience and then it loves you all day then the irony is it's sad to have to be leaving and taken away from that

and be placed in some other situation so when you ask me, Rob, who are you? Or the last name when people say, Robert, yeah? Who are you, man? That's a good question. Let me look through the rolodex of my past and see what makes sense

on any given day, what script you put in front of me, what director has a perception of me, what he wants me to manifest because then that's a whole other conversation in terms of that. So, you know, pick one, Rob, pick a personality. Pick a disposition.

Pick a tribe. Right. You know? You know, something that I just noticed, what was really interesting, was this kind of duality for a young person. And kids, I think, can be very resilient. They can internalize a lot of their pain and save it for later. But they can kind of go with the flow.

I think sometimes much better than adults can. So I wonder if, on the one hand, you were this kid who had to navigate all of these different situations. you had to be a chameleon, you had to be flexible. And whether that was in direct conflict with most people's need, and especially a child's need for some sense of stability, for some framework for understanding the world. Did you get that from your father?

Did you feel unmoored? The biological father was dealing with so much of his own. He was struggling. court case having to take care of me and I think he was a type of man that was instrumental in teaching me how to survive in the world

and so I'm eternally grateful for that aspect of the relationship but I don't know if he was a man that was even taught by his stepfather he never knew his own father so I don't know if he even knew how to communicate what people call affection and love but he taught me me how to be strong, how to fight, how to survive.

So he gave me that framework. He helped show me how to stand in the face of anything. And then it was up to me. People are taught that all the time. They don't always utilize those. They're given tools. They don't necessarily use it. They throw them away.

But in terms of stability, I don't know if regarding identity, if that came from him, I think what the first ink of any sense of stability as a self, as a human being, that had relevance, relevance. Yeah, that's the word. That word was fighting. Yeah, relevance. It came about not by my own searching.

It was pointed out to me by a teacher in school. When I was in school, I finally found a situation in junior high school where there was a teacher that was concerned about me because I was getting into trouble, and I wasn't paying attention in class. But she was an English teacher. She had a drama class as an elective. And she said, Robert, you want to try my drama class? Check out.

I think you might like it. So we started reading plays, started performing, putting on shows. And all of a sudden, I found a sense of purpose. I found something that, or maybe it found me. I don't know what was going. I just know that when I was performing, my classmates were responding. and when I got put on that stage something clicked

and I felt free of all the things around me that were twisting and turning me and all this confusion whatever the question mark of the day was all that vanished and I found stability in the realm of fantasy of imagination

and a teacher saying Robert let's keep doing this and then she mentioned hey guess what there's a school in New York called the high school for performing arts. Why don't you try to, why don't we get together, work on a couple of monologues,

and see, audition for the school. Let's see if we can get in there. And I was like, I didn't, I didn't grow up in a situation where like pipe dreams of glory stories of going to Hollywood.

It was none of that going on, man. Where were you? What school were you in? It was a special experimental school where they placed kids like me who couldn't function in traditional schools. So it was like something called the Lincoln program.

in New York City somewhere on the upper, I think it was maybe the upper west side. And so it was a program for kids, you know. And that's where I met the English teacher who made the, you know, who guided me and also saved my life. And so to get to the point, we work together. I memorized the monologues, I audition for the high school performing arts and I got in. That's so great. And then, yeah. You know, it's like, I think for a lot of kids,

because they've got a situation or they've got a set of structures that kind of buoy them and carry them along. And it doesn't mean that there aren't kids out there who don't work hard, but I think it's really unique when you're struggling and you don't feel like you have anybody really in your corner, like fully in your corner, and then you meet a stranger, for all intents and purposes this teacher, you know, who really took the time to say like, not just you're going to do this, but we're going to do this together. It's just extraordinary. It's rare.

I had a teacher like that in my life. just remember how much more it took to be that person for me. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't just show up in grade papers and, you know, flunk this kid and give that kid an A. I mean, she really chose, she saw something, and then she chose to reveal it to you. You know, it's just, it's, anyway, I just, I liked the story.

This performing arts school. Now, are you still living with your father at the time? Yeah. And you're back in New York with him. How are you feeling about yourself now? because I would imagine you had been a tough kid and now you're an artist. Did those things feel like they were in conflict for you?

I think I was a frustrated young man, like a lot of young men that are frustrated, and desperately trying to find some semblance of identity and rooted in the earth. And because of the momentum of early childhood and a lot of the aggression and violence I witnessed, I was carrying that. I didn't know what to do with it.

And had a lot of people rejecting negativity on me. And I absorbed a lot of that. I think that's probably why while I was going to school and eventually got into performing arts, I was still going to the park with my friends and hanging out. And, you know, getting involved in situations where I wasn't being creative at all. It was being destructive in terms of my fellow man doing things that I'm not proud of,

but it seemed to make sense at the time. Because I'd been beaten up. life, it seemed. So it was like my turn now to kind of turn the tables. And I'm not, like I said, I'm not proud of that. It's just, the rage had to go somewhere. Yeah, it went to class. You know, I utilized the stage, but I was still, what, I was 15, 16 years old, man. I didn't know how to micromanage my, my, my, my, my, my, my, and all these, these, these gutteral, these primal feelings that were, you know, you know, just, you know, every impulse pulled me. in this direction, that direction, people.

Because for so many years, I felt that the world was coming to an end, falling down on me, pressing it down and crushing me, and crushing me. And as I grew up and I became stronger, I saw in my own hands the capability to turn the tables on this idea of enemy, this thing, whatever it is, that was trying to hurt me. I hated bullies because I've been bullied for so long,

even by the, you know, within my own, you know, so-called family structures were bullying me. Everywhere I looked, there was a potential predator and me having to survive. circumstance that, you know, seemed like the end of me, seemed to represent the end of me. So after I came through all of that, you know, I still had all. And I think that's what I think was maybe for some people,

interesting to watch in the realm of performance. Right. Because I brought that. We're not even knowing it. Teachers knew what material to give me. I think this play, Tennessee Williams, this stuff, this stuff, whatever it is, petrified forest, Duke Mantee, whatever the characters were.

They usually outlaws or on the outside looking in on the periphery. of social experience communicating the independent struggle, the torturous nature of certain type individuals that aren't necessarily bad or tough. They're just confused and conflicted. And sometimes when that comes out, it can be amazing to watch, especially on stage.

But then the police don't appreciate that when you hurt somebody and they put you in handcuffs and I was placed in handcuffs. And I caught a case when I was 15. And I got lucky because, dig, you know, when the court, they'd came around. It was on my birthday. My court date fell on

September 20th. I was going to be 16. I caught a case. I was arrested for possession of a deadly weapon, assault first degree. The judge was there. She looked at me. My biological father was there. And based on what had happened,

it was a no-brainer. I could go easily. I've gone upstate to spot for any number of correctional facilities for young men. She asked me some questions about myself. She wanted to get a sense of me. I got lucky. And she said, so what's your situation with school? I told I was going to high school performing arts and basically explained some things to her. And she asked me some other questions. And she just looked at me for a while.

And then she said, happy birthday. She said, I don't ever want to see you here again. Go to school, go to class, do your drama classes. Don't ever come back here again. Happy birthday. And I slipped the whip on that one. one. Things where I've been very different for me if that had not, I'd been not so lucky and so, and that woman had not been so gracious and gave me, you know, a second, a pass and a reclamation of my own life, you know. I appreciate that because when we were on the train heading to the court, I saw my life kind of flashing me because I'm probably going to, I'm going to go to juvenile hall for a long, I'm going to get locked up, you know, lock me up. And that's it. And I was just sitting there and I looked at him and he looked at me, the old man. I was just like, yeah, I can't help you out of this one, son.

You know, you fuck, you know, I don't know what you were thinking. Yeah. So I got real close to the edge, you know, very early on. And after that experience, I was less interested in hanging out at the park and more interested in getting back to class, getting up on the stage and whatever issues I had, let's work them out on stage, Rob, in a creative environment rather than, you know, applying the destruction in the world. The world has enough of that. We don't need any more help with that, Rob.

Use it toward the positive. that man, help, you know, help, help, help other people. Collaborate with other young men like yourself. Be the example. Don't be the problem. Right. You know, I didn't know that at the time. I understand that now.

But back then, it was just like a, it was a, it was a tornado. It was a, it was a tempest in my head and it's spinning all the time, man. Was it difficult? Was it difficult for you to extract yourself from these other relationships? I hate to use this bullshit language, but like in the street, you know what I mean? These are, you called these men at various times your family, right? They're my brothers. Yeah, and I imagine they wouldn't have let you go so easily.

And maybe it was hard for you to let them go. Well, that I think, yeah. I felt like two people. And here's the other thing. And I'm not going to, I can't fake on this. I'm just going to tell you, just right. I didn't, I loved performing. I loved my teachers in school that guided me and trained me.

in the arts and pointed out the potential and loved me more than and gave me the kind of love I'd never experienced as as a as a as a as a as a as a as a as a being that deserved that love and the opportunity to to create um but I didn't feel an affection for my classmates I couldn't relate to them honestly I didn't I didn't I didn't label myself actor Thespian there's none of that in my lingo so when I you asked me about these men that I knew. Yeah, it was difficult because I would go, I'd go to school. And then I, you know, when I had time, I got, when I was hanging out, they'd say, hey, man, so were you going to acting school, Rob?

Yeah. Will you go be an actor or something? I don't know, man. You know, you don't even know how to talk about it because I don't even know, I didn't have the words or even understand what was happening. I just knew that how do you say to these men, hey man, there's some people. that kind of believe that this is a good thing for me. You just, you clown on it too.

Because you also recognize there's an aspect of it that's disingenuous because some of these kids in that high school man performing arts, they were, I don't know, where they, I'm not kind of trying to, I can't judge anybody. I just didn't feel a connection with them. There was something about these kids in the street that I knew because of where they came from,

they wouldn't lie to me. So no matter how barbaric they may be seen as or perceived as by the outside or looking in, they would protect me. I trusted my life with them. I didn't trust my life with these kids in school. They hadn't seen what I'd seen. And to me, they were just fake and phony and frauds, you know?

You know, and I know that sounds judgmental. Like I just contradicted myself, but that's just how I felt. You know, I don't, not saying that that's who they were. I'm just just how I saw it. That's how I felt. I didn't feel, I felt like, who's the, what are you doing here?

Like again, once again, what are you doing here in this school? And this was a multicultural experience. It wasn't just like, you know, one particular tribe going to school. It was New York City in the 70s, and the beauty of the school was a rainbow. It was like Jimmy Hendricksland, all colors of the rainbow, all different types of people. You know, people from the Bronx, uptown, people from Brooklyn, people from Manhattan, you know, kind of cushioned lives. It was this wonderful melting pot like New York City back in the day. And the kids were the representation of that.

So I guess I was the, I don't know, the thug. I'm not going to label myself, but I was the part, that was that aspect of the school, you know. And so when I went to the neighborhood, yeah, you know, to get to your point, yeah, it was hard to say, I guess, goodbye. But here's the thing that helped me. Some of my friends or my brothers and my homies, whatever you want to call, give it a name, they caught cases, they went to prison, some got killed, something got heavy into drugs. They started disappearing one by one.

So whether I wanted to stay Or not, it didn't really matter what I wanted. Life's circumstance removed them from me. So here's the good news, though, Aisha, the tattoo never goes away. So whether or not they're alive, I don't know what most of them are gone, you know, gone, but the bond in spirit and blood is still there.

Some of these tattoos I have, I still have, they're there, so that never goes away. So that's the link. That's the common denominator. It keeps us together in spirit. Forget the physical form. That goes away. It all goes away. So I'm linked to them forever.

And that's when people, I think, maybe why. Some people say, Rob, I dig watching you, man. There's something about what you're doing, man. I can relate because what I'm bringing is the experience I had for real. Not what I learned in performing arts. I already had that when I got to performing arts. The teachers just needed to figure out a way, how do we refine this?

How do we pull the reins on it so it doesn't destroy something or collapse in on itself? And to empower you, to be able to tap into it in a meaningful way. Yeah. To channel it. You said that in a lot of ways, whether you wanted to stay or not,

you had no choice because that life started to leave you, but you did go into the military. Was that before, you went to Tisch though for, did you go to Tisch as well? After high school, did you have additional, did you train additionally as an actor? No, I was the performing arts. I was after the military.

Okay. That came after the military. what what impelled you to go into the military? Some of the things that I described when I was noticing that one, the brethren, the family, so to speak, my friends were disappearing and the the vitality of the group was diminishing and I felt it like it was coming to, I knew it was coming to an end. Like we had our couple of summers of glory, you know, and but then the outlaw was, you know, outlaws were getting killed off one by one by one,

and disappearing, blah, blah. You know, the fall from grace, the end of the empire, you know, whatever you want to call it. You know, it's Pharaoh, Egypt, Rome, you know, a little dance, you know, that we did as a warriors, you know, it was finished, it was anything, it was over. You know, and then, so then I said,

okay, what am I to do, you know, because the old man was like doing his thing, and then, you know, something strange kind of showed up, you know, in the form of, Yeah, this is a tough one. I had already lost my biological mother to something. Then I watched biological father get involved in something that made me uncomfortable.

Do you feel uncomfortable to saying what the somethings were? Well, I'll say a word. And I think if I say this word, some people listening will get it right off the bat. It's cult. Okay. People get... get are

seduced some of the most intelligent people you ever come across, street people, or or, you know, wordsmiths, people that manipulate the language real world. They have a whole this intellect, but yet they have no insight, no fucking insight, to save their ass when it comes down to this. So I don't trust

the word. I mean, all kinds of geniuses in terms of like, they're walking thesaurus. They can command the language like, you know, Captain Bly, but when it comes down to the test, courage under fire, they fail, because there's no insight, there's no humility, there's no charity, there's no real experience to back up conventional knowledge.

Like the outside world programs people through education and knowledge. The inner self, the strength of self and character unprograms you to wisdom and understanding. And you can't learn that in a fucking book. So dig, when I watched the man for a period of time that I saw as a patriarch, as a protector, lose his fucking mind.

It was a little confusing to me. So I had instability once again in the household, chanting going on, cult figures, you know. Just invite, you know, Charles Manson over, too. You know, I actually would have felt safer with Charlie, to tell you truth. He said, I don't know I stand with him. So dig. So between the collapsing of the household once again and cult

and the collapsing of, you know, the street and nowhere to go, I said, you know what, if I don't get out of here, man, it's going to get ugly. So I joined the military. I signed up because I needed discipline. I needed because I was starting to come apart again. The framework of school wasn't there anymore. It was ending.

So it was going to hold me together. My family, there was no family. My old man lost his mind. He's talking about all this nonsense. So dig, I had to find some semblance, some reference for self. Because I didn't know what the hell was going. I had all these people tell me, you know, pursue acting. Keep going.

Go where? Where am I going? go to go continue go to go to Julia audition no I don't even want I don't okay I did a good job great I have to be a man I have to become a man

what do you mean to become a man I got to find I don't still confused I don't there's still something going on doesn't make any sense I don't believe this there was something in me that still could not I did not understand the artistic aspect of self

I know how to do it my teachers help me do and I enjoyed the praise I love the people but then when they were gone, I felt back into this situation of identity crisis. Like, who am I? Where am I? Where the hell do I go now? Right. Well, just do what you're supposed to do. What's that? Get married, have children. You know, what do you do? So I said, well, I got to get, I know I got to get out of here. So what branch of service should I join? How about the Navy, Rob? You get to travel around a lot.

So I join the Navy and learn some discipline quick. Right. Now, how was that for you? Because you had come from a really unstructured life and I think there's a part and you were in the military I've never been in the military so I'm going to try to phrase this in a way

and then you can correct me in a lot of ways the military spends a lot of time taking your identity away especially in the beginning right kind of breaking you down and at the same time while it's trying to break you down

as you have this incredibly rigid experience how did that feel were you happy to have that kind of structure in your life or did you rebel against that was a difficult for you. So kind of like the aspect of arrogance that needs to be

diminished so one can see opportunity to move forward. If you don't get out of your own way, you will destroy yourself. So there was a lot of arrogance present within the framework of myself. So

maybe it was okay that the drill instructors were screaming at me at the top of their lungs. Maybe I needed that. You know, he needed somebody to put the fear of you know, something into me so that I would stand upright and recognize the importance of that kind of structure, whether I agreed with it or not. It didn't matter. I needed something extreme to check me because I was, you know,

part of self that was ready to just, you know, you know, so, yeah, uh, the break that which you regard as the tearing down of the aspects of self of Robert, whatever that is or was, I needed that. I needed to have that stripped away. I needed to have it torn. I needed to be hit.

I needed to... And it wasn't so much about self-hatred. It was just about needing to be shocked into realization, man. I guess maybe I'm that personality type. I need the lessons to be severe. So it made sense to me. And I liked marching. I mean, I think also some of the influence came from, you know,

the only friend I had with some of these films I watched when I was a kid with men marching going off to war, this kind of like righteous kind of belief, you know, where you're going to go defend something, your family, your wife, your child, your family, your farm, whatever it is you're defending. You know, if you're a patriot, then you defend some kind of ideology. But, you know, the bottom of, for me, was like, there was something honorable about, at least back then it felt like

there was something honorable about going off to fight for a cause, you know. And so when we were in boot camp and we were marching and stuff, I don't know, I felt empowered. I was like, wow, this is great. I feel empowered. I like discipline. I like, you know, and they drill us. We have to, you know, do all these, these, go through,

navigate around the off the courses and do all the, all the things. You know, and there was no room for error. There was no room for error. And I guess, you know, part of my, I guess my genetic, I don't know what you want to call it, my cosmic makeup. It worked well with me because I was always a tidy kind of a guy. I'm a Virgo. And I'm not necessarily, you know, one of the faithful astrological followers,

but some of the tendencies that are described in those charts make sense to me. So when I had to like make my bunk and put my, fold my stuff and everything had to be in perfect order, I could roll with that. I like that. I like the discipline. I like the attention to detail. It was all about attention to detail. School. We had to go to school.

We had to learn a bunch of things, you know. And it wasn't about me anymore. It was about the group. It was about if I mess up, then everybody else pays for it. If one man in the unit screws up, everybody dies in war, right? So they were teaching us how to work as a team. Forget about I. It's the team.

It's a group effort. So don't fuck up because then everybody's going to do a thousand push-ups and then you're going to get a lot of hate on you. And so I quickly rose to that task, man, because I was very physical. I'm still very physical. So I could do push-ups all day back that. I could do it now.

So I enjoyed the physical, the vitality, the prowess of the march and the pride that came with pleasing, I guess, the master, the drill instructor said, Good, Ruth Lassardo, good, good, outstanding. And I felt good to be praised because that part of the self

was still being discovered. What am I? What is a man? Is a man some guy who runs around in tights reciting Shakespeare on a stage? I don't fucking think so that my teachers felt otherwise. So I wanted to see on my own

this other guy that I felt lived in me and go as far as I could with that. Around the world, I went, to find this other guy that I thought made more sense than the artist. Did the men around you replace on some level, the men that you had lost, this other family you had lost? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Were you still, as this is going on, getting tattoos? I imagine it's taken you a lifetime to get as painted as you are. Yes. I did a second part of my tour. I did four years in the military. The second two, I was on board of a destroyer tender, an auxiliary destroyer. We traveled in 1983 around the world. I did what they call Westpac, a South Pacific cruise.

So, yeah, I went to Australia. I went to Africa. I went to Thailand. I went to Philippines. I went all over across the equator. I was in the Persian Gulf. So, yeah, I stopped off at a lot of tattoo shops around the world and just collected, you know, a sailor, man. I'm a pirate.

Yeah. So between, you know, the bars and the tattoos. tattoos shops hey I'm in a good place you were training military dogs too as well right was the first that was the first two years absolutely yeah so that's something you chose well let me tell you the story yeah tell you story real quick when I was in boot camp and and we're finishing a boot camp and our orders came down they asked several of the recruits hey is anybody want to volunteer for overseas duty and my hand went right up yeah let me go some place yeah I joined a navy man I want to go some place far far away from here right so I said yeah I'll go you know and

they put my name down and then my orders came down. I looked at my world thinking like there'd be some exotic place I'm going to go overseas, you know, and then I looked at it and it said, A-D-A-D-As-N-David-K. And I asked one of my shipmates, I'm like, hey, what's ADAC? That doesn't sound like some place in Europe or some exotic Caribbean. Where the hell? Let's look at the, oh, wait a minute, that's near, wait, that's in the Aleut. That's the Aleutian Islands, man.

That's like near Siberia. Oh, God. I'm like, oh, shit. Wait, like near Alaska? Yeah. Wow. You mean like where it stays sunny out until midnight? Yeah.

Wow. And then I got depressed. Oh, no. It's not exciting, right? No, it was like 800 miles from Siberia in the middle of the Bering Sea. So I looked on the map there and I'm like, oh shit, I'm going to basically be in, you know, cold hell for two years. So then, okay, so dig. So fast forward, I get to ADAC on a, they fly me in what they call a P3 plane, a propeller plane, old school style, man.

I was wondering if we were going to make it from one piece. I was going to get killed on the way there. And so anyway, we land, I get there, and you had a choice. The commanding officer wanted to know, okay, who about, you have two choices. One, you can sign up to be a fireman, or you can sign up for security task force. You know, back in the day, the Elysian Islands, especially Adak, was considered a listening post because that was doing what we called the Cold War, right? Russia was right there in our backyard.

So the theory being that if, you know, the Russians weren't going to invade, they'd through the Aleutian Islands, right? So on that island was, you know, any number of military installations prepared to do whatever necessary. So one of the things they had was a security task force, which involved dogs. Marine Corps was up there. So I signed on to be, ironically, given my career, a cop. Oh, wow.

Security Task Force member. And I got on that team, was a police officer. And then another question. Well, anybody here want to volunteer to handle the dogs? I raise my hand. And the next thing I know, they're flying me from the Aleutian Islands to Lackland Air Force Base in Texas for a seven-week certification course. I got certified with an attack dog, also a drug dog. So I became part of narcotics interdiction team slash security task force, anti-terrorism.

So I was doing perimeter watches with the Marines, the seals would take. come and infiltrate the aisle, you know, the special ops units would come to see how on point we were with the dogs, tracking them and that. And then when I wasn't doing that, man, I was searching people's bags when they'd come in military members that would fly in from Japan, wherever,

to check for drugs. Wow. So I was a cop. I was a narque. Did that feel surreal to you? It was bizarre, given my past history to be wearing a badge, I don't know. At the same time. Might be like, Rob, wait a minute. Sedition, traitor. Trader. Trader, sellout.

Crucify him. At the same time, you, you know, you were uniquely qualified to understand how all the people you were looking at thought, right? No doubt. No, your enemy. Yeah, absolutely, 100%. You came out after four years, and you had this very, you had these polar experiences. You had been training as, you know, you had this turbulent childhood. Then you were navigating that, that divide between the streets and the stage. Then you go into the military and you're fully consumed by this life.

do you come out knowing what you want to do next? Well, here's a, I think, a crucial piece of information. During the four years, I stayed in contact with a very close friend of mine who happened to be my acting teacher at performing arts. Anthony Abson, who became, he was my confidant. He's my father I never had on a level of intimate. so to speak, and a wise man and inspiring human being. And so while I was going to write a passage,

a lot of men and women go through and tribulations and et cetera, he always would communicate to me when I'd come home on leave to New York City, hey, Robert, please, take a look at this. I want to show you something. He'd show me some of the excerpts from a tape of something they filmed of a performance that I was involved. And to remind me not to forget the other half,

for myself, that creative person that lived inside and, hey, Rob, don't forget that guy. You know, let me help, let me try. And he, in a very subtle, unintrusive way, very delicate, careful, caring, nurturing way, helped to, you know, keep that alive. And so by the time I came around on, you know, by time I was, you know, ready to get discharged, I was considering, after many conversations with Anthony, going back to school, studying again. Because here's the other thing. Some of my fellow classmates at performing arts, Helen Slater, Issaid Morales, I was friendly with them.

I knew them personally. And while I was on board ship, I'd see them in movies. I was like, wow, that's pretty cool. And so then I started to feel something kind of tugging at me. hey, you know, tugging at me, okay, I think it's time now, you know. Of course, you know, when I came to my realization, I shared that with some people I knew in the tattoo community. And they were like, Rob, that's really beautiful and everything.

I think that's great, but I think the tattoos are going to fuck you up a little bit. Actors don't have tattoos. Right, and so how, you're 25 at this point? I was, let's see. Well, no. 22. I was discharged. At 1985, I was 22 years old.

How, and, and again, I mean, nowadays, we have better so many artists have come a long way yeah we have come a long way I'm trying to regulate it properly we have come a long way but at that time I imagine it was true like it would really define who you were

and did you have a lot of visible tattoos at that point where they already kind of up above your neckline and all the way down to your I was I was sleeved down I had full sleeves yeah and I had a tattoo a little tattoo on my right

actually which one I had A little tattoo on my right above my right thumb on my right hand and a tattoo on my left hand above my thumb. But I didn't hit my neck until 1990. Okay. So, but when I was a discharge in 1985, I was sleeved down. And so, yeah, there was quite a commitment going on at that point. Yeah, yeah.

You were into it. I was deep in the pool, man. I was deep, swimming deep. Yeah, and I was fine with that Because I elected to do that And that was who you were And for a period of time I used to be like When I was hanging out in the San Diego

Tattoo shops Because my ship was stationed out of San Diego The 32nd Street Naval Base there I'd hang out with some of these cats That rode motorcycles that were pretty badass And you know my tattoo artist Who was I was apprenticing for a while I was considering being a tattoo artist

Because I used to sketch When we're out at sea 30 days You get bored. It's like a floating prison man So I would just sketch and draw drawings And stuff and I met this one individual who wanted, you know, talk to him and I said, can I be your apprentice?

He says, well, you know, can you know, can you handle it? Because it wasn't, back then, it was a different, you know, it was, the things that are so easily accessible now in terms of industry secrets, how you, all this, you know, this tight-knit community of tattoo world that, you know, was kind of like a gang, a club, you know, an MC situation, you know, master ceremonies, and if you give any secrets, we'll kill you.

So that was the vibe. Like, if I let you into my shop, you're going to clean the bathrooms, you're going to clean some shit up before you even get close to a tattoo machine. Right. You know, and you can't, you know. So I was doing that for a while. I liked this vibe.

I was tattooing grapefruits. I even tattooed my own leg. And he said, you'll make a good tattoo artist, Robert. But he had kind of a bit of a turbulent life outside the tattoo shop, and he eventually was shot to death by somebody. So that times, me communicating with my acting teacher and just feeling that the more dominant pursuit

and more authentic pursuit felt like the stage not the tattoo machine at least you know not from the giving end the receiving end no problem I just didn't feel the magic or this thing that was undescribed indescribable the experience on stage that euphoria that anti-gravity field you know where there's no reference of self because you completely absorb within the manifestation of character, nothing could come close to that.

I didn't even know what it was. I just knew I experienced it. So when I was doing these little tattoos, whatever, it was just no comp, no competition. So it was a no brainer for me to say, you know what, I think I'm going to give back to tattoo machines. My brother here is passed away, unfortunately, in an untimely manner, in a very violent manner.

Maybe that's a sign, who knows. So I got on the plane, went back to New York, got close with my friend, my teacher, started studying with him privately. I studied at the Stellar Adler Conservatory. I also, because of my acting teacher, who had some friends over at the actor's studio

before it became a TV show, was friends with the coordinator at the actor's studio on 50th Street in Hell's Kitchen over there, said, hey, Robert, check this out. If you go there, I have a situation set up for you where you can be a part of what they call

the Working Observer Program, where you go in, You build sets, you sweep the steps, you sweep up, clean up, you know, whatever, grunt work. And I said, yeah, where do I sign up? So I got to sit and watch legendary actors teach other fellow members of the studio. And this was a year, like within less than a year. I went from military to sitting at the actor's studio watching legendary actress and actresses perform, sweeping the steps of the actor's studio, the actual physical building.

And thinking, holy shit. Man, this is cool. I love this broom right now. I'll clean these steps all day because some of the people walking through these doors, I grew up watching them in movies that affected me. I didn't realize how much they affected to me. I was close to that temple, so to speak,

that ashram, that's whatever you want to call it, that headquarters of, you know. So, yeah, and so from that point on, I became diligent in pursuing the craft, continuing to pick up where I left off and just pursuing the craft. The part that I didn't like, I don't think anybody likes, if they're honest with themselves, was the whole competitive element, you know, auditioning. And that part I didn't understand.

And I had many heated debates with my acting teacher, Anthony, about, you know, the whole casting process and some of these people, I didn't think, I was like, you know, maybe I shouldn't be doing this. Right. After a few auditions, I was like, fuck this. Oh, yeah. Fuck this. Oh, yeah.

Those people are crazy. Yeah. They're nuts. Yeah. It was horrible experience. I feel like I'm going to mouth. Yeah. Takes the beauty out of the art. Yeah. You know, you feel it takes all the joy away from it.

And it can make you doubt yourself as an artist, which is bullshit. You should never be in that position where, you know, I don't know. I've had that same experience where all of a sudden you walk out. You're like, should I be doing this at all? When up until that moment you loved what you were doing, you know? Because when you're doing it, right, Dick, there's no judgment present. The element, the variable of judgment is removed from the equation. You just fly.

Yeah. Judgment is the thing that clips your wings. You come crashing down, land on your head, and you have this big headache going, that hurt. Why is it supposed to hurt now? Because you people are going to gauge me and judge me. So the judgment element I had to really work on. I'm still working on. We're all working on in everyday life. Forget about a stage, man. Judgment is just maddening.

So you've got to transcend judgment and just continue your love affair with the art form, and embrace it. And who cares what people think? You just go and you do your best. And there's so many variables and things outside your control. And so once I was able to get over that, and had a couple of good experiences at the auditions. I got some confidence.

I got my first studio contract. I was like, oh, shit, this is real. This is real. What was it? Tony wasn't, Anthony wasn't messing with me. He actually, this is real. He's not making this up. Right.

I auditioned for a film out of New York City. I was brought in and auditioned. And it went well. So I got called back. And what I found out was the woman who auditioned me was the vice president of Warner Brothers, you know, I didn't know any, none of this, the hierarchy in terms of the business wasn't something I really understood

and how it worked. I didn't know the relevance. Oh, I got that word right this time. And how, I guess what a big deal all that was. I just wanted to have a good audition and it went well. It went so well that the vice president of Warner Brothers casting came to see me and talk to me.

because they were having some producers fly in from California because they were casting out of Los Angeles. They were casting out of New York. They were casting all over the place. And so I showed up on their radar because of something I did on the tape when they were filming me. Then I was sitting across from these two cats

that flew in from Los Angeles and I did an audition for them. Third one. And after that, I waited. And I waited, you know, the eternal wait. You know, that eternal weight. And so dig. So I get the phone.

call from the agency, my agent, Robbie Cass, a good friend of mine, very close. I love this man. And he said, call me back. He didn't say nothing. He said, oh, come on. Right, right, great. Something bad news. He didn't leave me a message. He didn't say anything. It's got to be my execution. I'm done. So the head's going to roll, right? Call up. He said, guess what? I said, what? Guess who's going to Hollywood? I was like, what? Turns out, the film was a movie starring Richard Pryor called Moving. How exciting. Yeah.

How exciting. And so they flew me out to California. I was on the contract with Warner Brothers for three months. I got to hang out with Richard. Not only did I hang out with him and work with him, he took an affection to me and said, hey, Rob, what are you doing like next weekend? I said, yeah, I'm studying. He said, well, you know, you want to come over in my house and watch the fight?

Because back then, I guess Sugar Ray and Hagler were fighting. And if you want to come up my house and watch the fight, I said, oh, yeah, yeah. So some guy in a limousine comes by the hotel, picks me up, takes me to his house, and I'm getting, mind you, okay, it's been a year out of the Navy. I'm sitting with Richard Breyer at his house watching the Haglify. You're talking about surreal. It's insane. So I think that was enough confirmation for me that maybe I'm on the right path. Right, right.

And what has happened for you is, you know, and this doesn't always happen, is that talent has transcended whatever, you know, and I mean, a lot of it also, it's tenacity and it's longevity, and it's a passion for what you're doing, it keeps you going, because a lot of people wash out because they just can't take the times between the times when things are going well. And I think probably the biggest tool anybody needs in this business as to whether those times is to get through those times without losing faith in yourself or in your talent or in the world. because your CV is so voluminous

and you've done so much TV and so much film but one thing that I notice very specifically beyond the fact that your work is so powerful is that this thing that everybody was telling you was going to be a handicap for you has become your calling card I mean I don't really think there's anybody else that looks like you

and it has been as versatile as being as being completely tattooed can be for an actor Do you know what I mean? It's not like you keep playing the same guy. You've been able to really come from a lot of different angles. And I guess I wonder, two things. I wonder, first of all, if there was a moment at which you saw that this expression of yourself, this outward expression of yourself, these tattoos, was an asset. If there was a moment where you go, okay, this, or so that's the first question. We really, really realize, this is something I have that's so special and so unique that it, it's really something that's going to kind of set me apart from everybody else. And I'm going to use it to my advantage. That's the first question. It's a long question, but I wonder if you ever had a moment where you really saw that clearly. I love that you're asking me these questions.

That's great questions. I love your observation in terms of my dexterity in relationship to various characters I play. Thank you for seeing that, the difference in the difference. Incredibly diverse. I'm glad that you can see that. Thank you. My pleasure. So was there a moment in your career?

you thought this is my tool this thing makes me so special um i'm going to be able to exploit it in a way that maybe in the beginning people were telling you this is going to be a problem for you you're not going to work because of it first my first it's a two-part answer first answer is this for the even after the success of what i just described with the realization of and being invited into a studio situation and then also some television experience as i continued to compete and show up at auditions within the conventional structures, because that's what they are, right, I guess, so to speak, and that machine.

What I experience concerning the tattoo, in terms of the tattoo, what I witnessed in others, especially in the casting directors or assistants that were there to greet me was, oh, yeah, excuse me, sir, the delivery entrances on the back. I got that a lot.

Yeah. Like, you're in the wrong place, sir. And so for a lot of the times, they look at me, and I said, no, I'm not here to deliver a package. I'm here to audition. I lost track of how many times that that was thrown at me. And that was difficult because I'm trying to manifest and focus on the task at hand.

So when you hear that coming right in, and you have some trepidation in terms of confidence or am I right for this? Or am I going to pull this off? Am I going to ring the bell? I'm going to make them all come. You know, they're going to go, wow. Yeah.

You know, so you're trying to figure out a way to navigate to that whole thing. And then you hear, you're in the wrong. You don't belong here. Right off the bat. The first thing they say is not welcome or please sign in. Would you like a water or just sit there and be quiet? You don't belong here.

What the fuck are you doing here? So that threw me quite a few times in the beginning. Then after a while I got used to that. So I didn't see it as an air. I saw it like, oh man, this is going to be, wow, this really sucks. So from a, and then, okay, so then in spite of that, because, you know, I guess this is where the outlaw came into play. I was like, well, fuck that, man.

I'm not going to let them tell me anything. I'm going to still show up in spite of that. And on top of that, I'm going to come really prepared. I'm going to be off book. I'm going to know my shit. So I lay it in their lap. So that gave me some motivation, let's say, to really come. Both guns loaded, blazing.

Not with arrogance, with respect to the format. I was polite and respect. But as soon as they said action or go, I transformed. I let loose my crocken, my titan. He came out. Eat up the room and then cut. And then hi, everybody. Right.

They were still scared because they didn't even understand what they were witnessing. They didn't even understand what they were witnessing. How is it possible that this guy with that can do this? their brain fuck, they short circuit. I watch them sometimes short circuit right before my eyes. They wanted to hire me. And I'm like, okay, all right, no problem. But then, okay, so here's, so the part of it that finally materialize in terms of an asset and something that I could use to my, not use, I don't like that word, something that was part of my repertoire, let's say, because it's a creative expression.

It's an art form, right? It's not just a tattoo because it's cool. It's, you know, it's spiritual, at least for me. And so then when a gentleman named Ryan Murphy with his show, Nip Tuck, came along, and talked with me and I auditioned for him and then he talked with me some more I saw what he was doing

and the genius of his mind and what he was writing and I thought wow wow he gets it he's not afraid of it he's going to allow the full arc of a character to develop

and he's going to have fun with it whoa so then I started to see the potential of where that could go you know but here's the difficulty that let's be let's be realistic there are no disrespect to the

industry and people in the industry that are listening to this but the realm isn't littered with Ryan Murphy's it is not it's not you know you don't run into a genius every day I wish we could and we all aspire to that genius of realization and our creativity so we can affect the realm and collaborate and make the best

possible you know the best do justice to the art form right but it's hard to do that you know so the difficulty is after the ryan murphy experience i'm looking at this asset but then i'm going yeah but is everybody going to under am i going to am i going forward now or am i going in reverse so yeah i do i did see the advantage depending on who i was sitting across from who understood how to utilize it and where to place it and how to communicate it authentically not exploited for the simple you know the simple

payoff and the exhilaration of it looks like that and it does this and everybody hate it on it. Wow, that's exciting. I'm locked up in a box forever. In solitary confinement, imprisoned in hell kind of thing. Dante Inferno land, you know? So that's the part of it that I think was still challenging, despite the success

I received, and being fortunate enough to collaborate with people like that. I still came up against arrogance and ignorance and prejudice and, you know, all kinds of things. Even my brother and I hate to say, other actors were angry with me. I started to realize, as some of my friends who weren't in the industry,

said, Robert, you may want to start keeping your good news to yourself because they'll confiscate it. Your fellow actors are going to hate on you. Why? Because they're following the formula, man. They're doing everything by the book. You're not. And you're winning.

You're succeeding. They still can't get a job. They're going to hate you. And if anything, the first thing they're going to go at is the tattoos, man. They're going to gimmick you off quickly. Oh, it's because of the tattoos. So for years, Ayesha, when I go on set, even if I achieve, I know you understand this

the victory and the thousand deaths that you die to even get the victory before even they say you're hired. All the people that you have to compete you go right into the Coliseum before season, you slay, you know, you fight gladiators, you know, tigers are jumping out of you all the distractions in the realm of audition

that make people insane eventually, right? They don't even want to go near it after a while. I still continue to champion those experiences and then find myself on the set only to meet up with my brethren and say, hey, and then look at me like, what the fuck? Same thing again. Even after I got the chop, what are you doing here?

So I was like, wow. So then I started to just focus on the work. Right. You know, and I let these people projecting their, and it wasn't all hate, don't get me going. They also got a lot of love too. So for every bitterness, there was, you know, some honey that was given to me.

It's okay, don't listen to that. Just focus, you're doing great. And so I had enough. I'm like to, you know, you give me a little, I go a long way, you know, I lived in a tent when I was a kid. So I knew how to go a long way on a little. So I took the positive, and I talked about accentuating the positive.

I blew that shit up big. So there was no such thing as small in my world, you know, because a lot of the times they would say, well, oh, you're working. What are you working on, Rob? I'm working on this film. Oh, yeah. What kind of role is it? How many weeks?

How much they pay in you? It was all about the measurement. It was all about how good is it? What's it worth? And how big is it? And what kind of characters? I was like, wow, man. Like, can't you guys even just say to me,

like congratulate. Never congratulations. Always, what is it? And so then I started to be a little more quiet about things and just held the victory close to my chest. I didn't glorify it. I was just think, I just called my teacher and checking with him so that I could do justice to the art form and say, this is what's happening. And I feel good about it. He says, I'm proud of you. Good. And just keep it quiet, man. And just do the work. Do the job. Focus on the work and the craft. And don't ego trip too much, man, because they're going to knock you, while you're jumping up, down, clapping your hands, they're going to knock your legs out from underneath, man.

So don't keep grounded. Stay grounded, Rob. You remember, you come, you know where you come from. Just keep your feet on the ground, man. And just do the work. That's it. And then don't listen to none of these people. Yeah. All right, let me ask you a question. It might be a little close to the bone and you can tell me to go fuck myself. You know, I think that people on the outside make the most interesting artists. and it's typically because they're forced,

whether willingly or against their will, to observe. They become very good observers. And in your particular case, moving from place to place as a child, you know, you were a chameleon, you were an observer, but it seems to me listening to you

that you often felt like you were on the outside. And that theme continued through your childhood, and then it continued through your experiences as an actor. And I wonder two things. And I think I know the answer to the first one. Because anybody looking at your body of work would say, I will stipulate to the fact that no one ever fucking arrives. That's a bunch of bullshit.

But your sense of yourself as an artist must be, you know, more complex and more robust and you know who you are and you've worked enough to kind of see what you add and where you want to go and what you've done. But I wonder if that feeling of outsidership has ever left you. or if you still feel that way now. I still feel that way now. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. And maybe this is pride talking, but sometimes I revel in it, and I'll tell you why. I guess for pride's sake, and also when I've traveled the world and met people who are, like myself, I think in some way,

feel that they've been consigned to the island of misfit toys that don't fit in. They've thanked me, for being true to myself where all the others had condemned me they have said no

thank you Robert I got my first tattoo because if you wore you inspire me or all these things I had no idea what going on because I'd never left

you know the realm you know because it's considered treason to leave the room how dare you are you going to go away you're going to go someplace else Robert what are you doing

where are you going well I'm going to go over here for a while because I've been in lockdown for what, 25 years now. I've done my time, man. I think I'm getting these invitations to come visit people, to hang out, to talk. They actually say things to me that I never dreamed possible. Like, I never thought that what I knew I loved,

I knew that I was passionate about the work. I knew that it's what kept me going. It saved my life. Movies saved my life. collaborative, but I didn't know aside from my own geography and the things that surrounded me the type of impact

it was making globally because dig and this is just my opinion, you know, obviously I'm just saying you can be winning in the geography of California within the structures of system, Hollywood, whatever, and not even know it. You could actually feel like you're losing when you're at the apex of success

based on the way conventional thinking judges it by money, prestige, visibility, the top of pop show I was probably the most depressed when I was my most I guess when I was perceived as my most bankable I was miserable so dig so like fast forward to like within the last few years I've been traveling a lot so you know this outsider thing when I when I travel and I meet people and they hug me and they get emotional at first I'm confused like I don't I didn't understand what it was until I realized that because of technology people

are visiting and feeling the vibration or the current of the passion or whatever this thing is that I'm doing. And it's touched them emotionally. And so it's a cause and effect. It takes a minute sometimes to come back around, that cause and effect karma, whatever you want to call it. But it came back around and gave me a big hug around the world in all these different forms.

Don't let not the form deceive you, but the arms that came around me from all different walks of life, from all these different countries I've visited. and I'm like, wow, I didn't know that I was having this kind of impact because last time I looked over here, not to knock my own country, but I wasn't getting a whole lot of love. I'm getting a lot of like, yo, man, you know, whatever, just a lot of blah, blah, blah, and a lot of nonsense. Just like quack, quack talk, you know, that you don't listen to.

But it was, but, you know, I'd be lying if I said at times it gets a bit discouraging to have all, you know. So, yeah, so I reveled in it. in the outlaw and then when I realized that there were others that were affected by it, then I recognize a greater responsibility to that. I'm like, okay, now I need to start talking about this. I need to write this down in a book and communicate this experience so I don't let the man or those who have the misperception or stuck in a belief system about, well, no, no, no.

This person who was born in this tribe, they behaved this way. This person who's born to this tribe, they behave that way. What's your last name? What's your bloodline? Oh, wait a minute. People who are extensively tattooed are mentally and emotionally defective. Okay. So that's how we're going to write them because that's what we think of them.

And that's what I started to recognize. At least that's my opinion. I'm not saying everybody feels that way. I'm just saying what I've observed within my experience is that there's a lot of that going on. Right. So I'm like, okay, I have to find a way to help transcendence. this. And if I don't, if I, if it doesn't occur in my lifetime, even though I know the tattoo thing has become a fashion, it's become, it's been utilized, let's say, by the mainstream.

I don't know if it's been understood by the mainstream. We'll be communicated properly by the mainstream. That's just me. But I will say that my life is easier now because of it becoming a fashion. But within the mythology of storytelling, I still show up as the nefarious culprit, the s the pariah, the thing that's going to shake. So I don't see it that way. Like when I do the character, I don't judge to say, oh, he's a bad guy. I just see a human being. Right. So my

point is that I saw when I talk about responsibility, I had to take pen to paper and write it down. And so after all this is completed, at least in my own words, I could write my interpretation of the experience. Not somebody who didn't grow up with me.

Not somebody that has compassion enough to consider the possibility that You know, there's something else going on here in this house that I live in called body, Robert, whatever that is, right? So how about we explore that? I don't know. Might not sell what, whatever. Who cares? The point is, I didn't care about none of that.

I had to, I'm not going to let, I'm not going to call it them. I'm just going to not let a certain perception be the final mark I leave because all the people that said, hey, Robert, thank you. They asked me also a bunch of questions, and I needed to answer those questions. So I wrote all the answers down to the best of my ability to authorize. authenticate my experience as an artist. Not the bad guy, not the Hollywood guy. None of these labels. Just Robert or whatever, you know,

what it's been like for you, man. You know, because I ain't, you know, I ain't walking on water. You know, I'm just a man. And as much as the deity thing comes into play with people, like, oh my God, that's the first thing that comes when they see you, I can appreciate the accolades, but like let's bring it back to earth and talk, real talk. Let me embrace you.

And I think on that level, people, some of the people I've met appreciate that I front on them. I'm not enamored by my own light. I went through that already. I died to that and I realize there's nothing in that light except, you know, nonsense. It smells in there, you know. Let me get out of here and take it back to where it really belongs, which is

in a genuine exchange, something, you know, and get over yourself. And so then once I was able to die to that, in a sense, metaphorically and then be reborn again to realization, then I just started writing this down. So let me just communicate this stuff. And Anthony, my teacher that even said to me, Robert, you need to start writing this stuff down, man.

Write your story. Write it down. Write it down. You know, you need to write this down. You know, I said, okay. But I didn't listen. I listened, but I didn't do it. It took me a minute to finally feel confident of just like the acting thing, you know, the theater thing. I was like, fuck this. Let me go into the Navy before. I ain't going near that stage. I'm going to it's far away from that stage. I'm going to go around a world. Right. Come back around. So it was the same thing with the writing. Yeah. I'm not a writer. I'm not even an actor. I don't know what I am. I just know that I have a task and I do my best to achieve

the task. Manifest and people are affected by it. Right on. Cool. I'll keep doing the best I can. Same thing with putting down words in relationship to spirit and feeling and observations. They're not the right words. They're not profound words. It's just my words. In relationship to the experience and the responsibility

I have to those are asking all these questions man. Otherwise, I am a fraud and the tattoos are a bunch of bullshit because I'm just fronting on myself and I ain't doing that. So let me write it down so they can read it and let them be the judge of it. I'm not going to judge it, but just have to communicate it and be accountable for that experience at the end of it. So that if there's no bridge to evolution in terms of where do we go

from here, Rob, where are we going to take you in terms of creativity? You're going to stay in the lower tier or you're going to be exalted into the realm where anything's possible in the way you communicate as an artist or are we going to keep you locked up in the prison forever? you know when you become emancipated I'm not going to rely on the system or a situation to dictate those terms so I just write it down and that's the most freeing experience in the form of writing

to allow yourself that when others will not you transcend the walls you put like the cats I met in Angola State Penitentiary when I was down over there working I watched these men do paintings they were doing 300 years you know triple life sentences they were able to put their spirit through the wall

and be freer than some of the people I know on the outside because they saw the magic. They embraced the creative spirit and grew wings and just flew away from the prison. So I know how to do that. I had to learn how to do that because if you rely on others to equate who you are as a frame of reference,

you'll go mad. You're talking about identity crisis, damn. I had to figure that out for myself. You've got to define yourself before you let other people do it. Yeah. Do you need a tunnel? I know, it's great. I have two quick things.

I have so many things, and we're going to run out of time. So one of the things I want to ask you, well, first of all, you said you were down at Angola. Were you shooting at Angola? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you got to interact with the,

with the GP while you were shooting the film? Was it for research, or was it just an opportunity to, like, touch those guys? You know, it started out as a work situation, then it became research. It just became, you know, it was a situation where I got humbled because I was talking to cast and locked down forever,

but I was originally there, hired her to work on a film, but the warden, And Warden Kane befriended me, took me aside, and he appreciated me. And he wanted me to talk to some of the inmates. And they had an affection for me. They connected to me.

And when I looked through those bars, I saw myself looking back at me. And then here's this, you know, the corrections officer. There's me and the inmate and these bars. But then the inmates handing me a painting. And I'm ready. I have tears in my eyes because the artwork is transplendent, man. It blew my mind.

and I'm confused and I'm thinking okay I'm the guy portraying this guy's life and the way they're writing this guy's life they're not writing the guy in the prison that's doing these paintings that has transcended the walls

so I felt I felt like I got checked like what are you doing Rob yeah where's your responsibility in all this man do you really want to continue perpetuate this this idea of this when you're looking at this man

who's looking you know who you know so it started out as a work situation then just became revelation, you know, for me, a revelation and beautiful, and that I was able, fortunate enough, to talk to these men,

be inspired by all the people that I met there, whether it's the corrections officer, the inmates or the men, forget inmate, the men that I met there that happened to be in that situation, and they taught me some things, and I'm grateful for that. And they gave me love, they hugged me, and there's no fear walking down through the tier.

I walked through death row. I walked through, you know, the different camps and met different people, and I looked at their eyes, and they looked at me, and they got me. They knew it. Like, I looked in their eyes, and they got it. And I wouldn't even, we didn't say anything. They just, I just put my hand over my heart and did one of these, and they did, yeah, homie, respect, Rob.

And I looked at thanks, man. And that's it. It was bizarre, man, blew my mind. Yeah. Full disclosure, I don't have any tattoos, but everybody in my family does. My mother, who is 70, has had tattoos since I was a baby. She's a full sleeve, and good part of her back is done. My sister has a full back and one full sleeve, one half sleeve. My dad only has one tattoo, but it's his entire abdomen. I'm the only one who's not painted in my family. And that didn't

just happen a few years ago. That happened in the 70s. And my sister, obviously, over the last, like, 10, 15 years. So I have a lot of respect for it. And I, and my mother is 70. And finishing her sleeve right now. So it's pretty badass. But one thing you said about fear that I thought of, and I wonder what you think of this, and I want to mention your book and we'll talk about the film, is that when people see someone who has made these very permanent decisions about their life that are outwardly represented, right? You can see the permanence of a tattoo. And I don't think there's anything more permanent than a tattoo. Marriage is not more permanent than a tattoo. You know, even parenthood, a lot of people don't see it as a permanent state. A tattoo is a really permanent

choice and it belies a certain lack of fear. And I think most people are governed by fear. They're really ruled by it. So when they see someone who's made this incredibly personal, fearless choice, it frightens them. So while the ostensible reaction is, oh, that guy has tattoos, he looks scary. I think it's something different. which is people confronting their own fear when they see someone else who seems not to have any. And that's very frightening. And I wonder if that makes any sense to you.

It makes complete sense. Yeah. And you've stalled me a bit in terms of words because your observation is so eloquent and so insightful. It's refreshing. Oh, well, it's, thank you. I want to, I just respect it and I know it's, you know, these choices that you've made

are they tell the story of your life. of your life, you know, and it's more than just a decoration. You have this book, it's called Life Sentence. I haven't read it yet. You just brought it to me, but I'm assuming this is your autobiography. And the cover is beautiful, and Scott Robert and all of his tats. It's pretty special. I'll put a link up on the website so people can connect to it.

But you also are doing something else. Very personal. This film, where tattoos play this, like, central thematic role in the story. And the name is anarchic parlor. Did I say that right? Anarchy Parlet, that's correct, yes. So tell me a little bit about the movie, and I hate that. That's the stupidest, like, TV open-ended question.

Tell me about your movie, what happens. But you know what? Tell me what drew you to it, because inso much as it's a movie about tattooing, it's also a movie about fear. So I'm really curious about what you responded to. And you shot it in Lithuania. Lithuania. Vilnius, Lithuania.

Kind of what is attracting me to you right now. which is the way you communicate and the spirit of a communication that you have and the insight that you have, the understanding you have, the compassion you have. I met two men, Kenny Gage, Devin Downs,

who wrote and directed Anarchy Parlor, and I think these are the gentlemen, like the gentleman that I knew in the streets many years ago, come back to life in a different form to say, hey, Rob, we understand you. And guess what? We're going to channel you a bit. And we're also going to put some of our stuff in there

because it's called the collaboration, right? And so after many conversations and also I think just sheer frustration of being not allowed by industry to communicate a vision somewhat different than what people are used to seeing drove us mad, but mad with desire and diligence to

collaborate and just make it happen and they did. They wrote this script after many conversations and after befriending me and I found that family again with them. And here's a thing, I never had an experience like that before with film. I'd never been in a situation where I sat that close or was even allowed to discuss creative elements in storytelling mythology. I was just, you know, basically,

okay Robert you do this okay and I accepted that because I'm just you know I'm carrying the stones for Pharaoh to build a temple to glorify somebody's you know the illuminate the ego of some you know so I but within all that

I you know I had respect you know respect this is what you do so here I am sitting in a situation where I'm allowed to vocalize 2,000 words of dialogue that they wrote with me in mind

or at the character you know and also it's interesting because I don't know if it's my it's the alter ego but whatever it is I don't want to define it I will just say that it came about after many conversations and the need to share and communicate something radical within the framework of a character which is intelligence an eccentric character

an existentialist and so that part of it communicated to me tremendously and reflected back at me in these these two men an understanding and their own genius, their insight, their intelligence, like yourself, and being able to look at me and go, yeah, I get it because Devin is tatted down. Kenny is tatted down. And guess what? They're also within the framework of the industry.

And I think they're also kind of looking like, yeah, man, when are things going to change? When are we going to be allowed to tell different stories and communicate people's different types of life experience and not, and there isn't have to be a stigma attached to any of that, So this is one victory. This film, to me, is one victory in terms of creating a communication, sharing a communication with people that can maybe, I hope, relate to it, and at least I appreciate the balls it took for us to, or the courage it took for us, to leave the country, leave the United States, go to Lithuania, into a completely different world, and on faith around some

nefarious elements, man, in terms of businessmen. We were going to end up in our own movie because it's a horror film, you know, and some of the things that occur in the horror in this film are very violent. And so there were moments we were wondering, oh, shit, are we even going to leave this place ever? You know, so we took a lot of risks, but then it's all about risks, right? We talk about like no fear, right? So we, it was like Viking land, Valhalla, you know, we're going to, you know, we're going to go, we're going to go down swinging.

And that, you know, if we don't complete the task, we'll at least have at least the victory knowing that we died trying, man. And I think that's what it's all about. When you want to shake things up, you have to be radical and go up against a system that says, no, this is what you look like, you sit here, you do this. But then if you ring a bell and the audience, like what is it in the movie, Gladiator,

the guy who was teaching Maximus something in terms of humility, he said, listen, I didn't, I wasn't the best gladiator because I killed, I killed quickly. So then he basically goes on to say, If you win the crowd, you win your freedom gladiator. So then it's just a situation where you want to connect with people who are the same people maybe that I meet overseas that give me a big hug and say, Rob, when are you going to be in a situation where you're not in prison anymore? You're doing something creative.

Who cares if it's a horror movie? But why can't you be the guy that actually survives the entire story unscathed and says something other than like, you know, what we're used to hearing. them make you say. Why don't you say something different? Because we know that you can. We've heard you speak. How come they don't see that? Kenny and Devon saw that.

And so, you know, mission accomplished. So, you know, I'm not here to try to champion the glory of an ego trip about the film itself. I'll let the people decide how they feel about the film and about, but I will say that it's probably the most authentic experience I've embraced. and been allowed to embrace in developing something that is close to my heart because of where I've come from and where the men who made it came from

and involved and collaborated. So that's how I feel about anarchy parlor in terms of the creative process, the genesis of it. And yeah, I'm just grateful. We're going to do self-inflicted wounds, but you're over there in Lithuania and it's a very tactical question.

Was there a point of what you thought you might not get the movie finished? Yeah, yeah. Were you out of funds? Yeah, yeah. There was an organized crime element around us that was trying to basically crush the production

and I think also maybe crush us. Jesus. Because you represented in Hollywood or America or was it just about control? It's greed. Yeah. It's just greed. Good old greed.

Yeah. It knows no, it knows no... No color lines. Yeah, there's no color lines, man. Yeah. It knows no, yeah. It's just greed, basic greed. And yuck, you're in our country now.

Yeah, you don't like it. What are you going to do? Call the cops. We own the cops. Right. So we, like I said, we thought we're going to end up in our own film at one point. So that was kind of cool. Well, that was exciting.

I imagine maybe not the fun kind of exciting. It was great. Yeah, I've been there before. Yeah. I've looked at that. Feel familiar to you? Yeah. Were you able to help the other guys on the film make it through?

Well, Devin and Devin and Devin Kenny, too, they've seen their share. So we were built for, you know, it was, you know, so, you know, we huddled together. Yeah. Got the job done. All right. Courage under fire and all that gets. Do you have yourself inflicted wound story? You know, there was a film that affected me.

This is more psychological and inflicted wound type of thing to ultimately achieve a state of realization. I didn't know going into it, though. But I know that for years, a film called The Exorcist had wreaked havoc on my life. psyche, man. Like it fucked me up. Really? Yeah, I saw it when I was like 13 years old in the movie theater and I was shaking. Wow. I had to leave the theater and going to the lobby. I think there was something about the sequence

at the end with the woman, the young girl in the bed, and that whole thing that reminded me of something in my personal life. Is it an experience that you want to share? Yeah, yeah. It's self-inflicted wounds. Let's go there, man. I'm going to go there. I didn't understand. The premise of the movie has to do with this supernatural.

and religious ideologies and all that. But when I look closer at it, and I think maybe I took a cue from Linda Blair when she had mentioned, talked about her experience with that, but it was maybe more akin to child abuse than it was demonic possession. But then, you know, the argument could be that one assists the other. If you're in the family of thinking

or the group think that believes in, you know, the supernatural, things that cannot be seen with the physical eye, and that aspect of the creation that influences the vessel of human beings. So, you know, that's another, conversation. But anyway, point is this. The movie freaked me out for years after that. I couldn't sleep well at night. I was convinced the devil was coming to get me. I'd have dreams where there was a pounding

on the door. Wherever I lived, there was pounding on the door and I'd get up and I'd walk to see what was on the other side of the door. I could never look through the keyhole. I'd always wake up. I didn't have, I just couldn't bring myself to look and see it was on the other side of that door trying to get in to get me. Okay. So then flash forward into the future, the present, whatever, the 1990. I was living in Santa Monica. I used to like, I would, okay, I'd shut the lights off.

I'd light candles. I'd play the exorcist. I'd get high. I'd smoke weed, and I'd watch the movie. I'd just watch it and freak myself out. So I would, I would inflict my psyche. And not only just inflict it, I would get stoned and pull my focus into the film

and discover things I didn't even understand about the movie. that would freak me out. I'd get up, stop the movie, have a panic attack, walk around the room, think I was going to fall over and die, get back up again, take a deep breath, maybe take another hit, who knows, turn a movie back on. I did this repeatedly so I could come to terms with what it was that was freaking me out, you know? And then I realized what I was looking at was my biological mother in that bed.

And then once I understood that and I put my arms around it, Instead of running from that demon or that thing and embraced it and hugged it, I never was able to really do it in life. I did it through the spirit of this film. Thank you, William Freakin. Thank you, Linda Blair. I just put my arms around this horrific manifestation,

this tortured human being, kind of like myself a little bit, because I came from her. I just put my arms around her. And I embraced it and poof, the nightmare vanished. And now it's my best friend. That's wonderful. That's wonderful and incredibly self-aware and incredibly brave.

And a lot of people would pay thousands of dollars in therapy to get to the place that you took yourself on your own. When you did that and you let that nightmare go, were you able to let whatever frustration or anger disappointment that you had at your actual mother go as well? I never knew her, really. I think I was released from some of the resentment, the unconscious resentment that was brought to the forefront of mind, my mind,

so that I could see that it was not her fault. She was sick. Wasn't done intentionally. That was a lot easier to do than some of the people that I felt that were present. They were more cognizant of what they were doing. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, yeah, the answer is yes.

I was able to let some of that go. And at times, you know, I just, I try to have a nostalgic feeling, but then I don't know what to connect to because I never had matriarch. I never had, you know, I don't know what that is. So when I have friends or female friends, I ask me how their mom is doing.

I live vicariously through other people's experience in terms of family and I ask me, hey, how's your dad doing? How's your mom doing? You and your mom get along, okay? And I'm not trying to manipulate a cycle. I'm curious to see what that. It's fascinating.

When a woman says to me, Rob, I, yeah, my mom, you have a good relation. We talk with best friends. I'm like, wow, that's pretty cool. How about your dad? Yeah, he's cool. And then sometimes there's other stories that are not so pleasant. But either way, I find a way to visit mom in other forms through other people.

And I enjoy it. And sometimes it's really nice. They're really nice. Sometimes some of the moms have been very nice to me. Robert, this was a joy. And thank you for being so present and forthcoming. I'm really very grateful for all the time they gave me. That was Robert Lassardo.

Really good conversation. Thoughtful, intense, obviously. He has gone through a lot in his life. And I was grateful that he took the time to work out with me. You can get a link to his book by going to growling guy.net and clicking on his episode of the show, either at growing guy.net or at growong guy.com slash podcast for archived episodes. I encourage you to check that out. You guys are the greatest.

Do I'm my army. You know what I do. Come say hi. Come follow me and friend me online. All my handles are Aisha Tyler, girl on guy and courage and stone. Come write me a note by going to grow on guy. com. Click on the envelope.

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