Girl on Guy with Aisha Tyler - girl on guy 197: andre royo

Episode Date: September 29, 2015

join andre royo of the wire and empire and aisha as they christen the brand new girl on guy bunker as they discuss the boogie down bronx, theater versus television, why you should be nice to your local bouncer, and being a part of the greatest television series of all time. plus, andre reveals what it's like to be TOO good at your job. girl on guy's gonna need a tissue.

Today's episode of Girl and Guy is brought to you in part by Squarespace. Squarespace is the easiest way to create a beautiful website, blog, or online store for you and your fantastic ideas. Squarespace features an elegant interface, beautiful templates, and incredible 24-7 customer support. Try Squarespace at Squarespace.com and enter offer code Ayesha at checkout to get 10% off. Squarespace, build it beautiful. This is Girl on Guy. Hey, everybody, this is Girl on Guy. 97. Welcome to the show. Welcome to season five. We had a rocky start. But you know what? Sometimes the rockiest

beginnings lead to the most velvet of endings. Unless you're talking about masturbation. No, I think that even applies to masturbation. Actually, I would say that applies especially to masturbation. Hey, this is not a family show if you haven't already divined that. But it is growing guy 197 and I am so happy to be here with you. I've already explained to you that this is such a crazy time for me and I'm not complaining. I'm just sharing with you guys that things are good but buried deep in that goodness is a substantial amount of conflict and anxiety as to how I'm going to get everything done. So I'm just asking you guys to be patient with me this season as I am very much hoping to do everything as I'm always hoping to do. I'm eternally optimistic. I think

we did a story once on the talk about how people who are late are inherently optimistic, that people who are tardy are not being rude or dismissive. They just believe that they can get more done in a smaller slice of time than is actually humanly, physically possible on this time space continuum. So that is me. I believe that I can do 18 things in the space of time that might be allocated in most normal people's lives for one or two. And I am more effective than many people, but I am not a magician as much as I strain and wave my arms and babble, gobbledygook into the ether. I can only get so much done at one time. So just hang in there with me. It's going to be a bumpy fall, but it should be fun. Lots of great episodes coming towards

you. And lots of fun creative projects on the horizon for me as well. Hopefully you're watching criminal minds. I'm on criminal minds now. Hooray, look at that. I love acting, and it's exciting to be back doing a drama. I haven't done one in a while, especially not in such substantial terms. So I'm very excited about that. And for people who have been asking me about courage and stone, it is happening. It is in the works. If you don't know, a lot about the spirits market, it takes a long time for a new boost product to get approved by the government. So that is the phase that we are in now, waiting for Uncle Sam to give us the seal of approval so that we can start bottling and selling our sweet, sweet elixir to the

public. So we are looking at a spring launch next year, but nothing has gone awry. We have not derailed. We are just in the natural legal process of getting everything approved. But it's super exciting and super fun. I can't wait till it's actually available to you. I have prototype bottles in the bunker and I have been availing myself of them liberally. So I'm really proud of it and I can't wait for you guys to be able to have access to it. I will keep you posted but never fear if that is going to be coming available to you next year. It's going to be Christmas in the spring, my friends. A little bit of business. This episode is brought to you in part by Squarespace and if you go moseying on over to Squarespace.com and use the promo code Aisha. You will get 10% off your first

purchase at Squarespace. You've probably seen their television ads now. They've got some pretty beautiful ads running on television all about how to make things beautiful, how to provide order to chaos. But what they really do is make it easier for you to build your own professional-looking, awesome online portfolio or website. And I have mentioned ad nauseum on this show, although maybe we haven't heard every episode, that I did build my first website for a girl and guy by myself using native software that was included with my computer when I bought it, much like keeping the photo inside the photo frame that was there when you purchased it from the frame store and then acting as if that really attractive Asian couple are your cousins. I did it myself,

and it was laborious and challenging, and I sprained my eyeball, and that is not a joke. I thought I was dying. I thought I was having an aneurysm because my eyes hurt when they rotated in their sockets, which I've got to tell you, it was an alarming fucking sensation, but I find out when I went to the doctor that I'd actually sprained the muscles in my eyeball holes. So don't do that to yourself. Use Squarespace. They make your website look professionally designed, regardless of your level of skill. You don't need to be a coder. You don't need to have any kind of computer savvy whatsoever. Their tools are easy to use and intuitive, and they have state-of-the-art technology to power your site, which ensures both security and stability. They're trust by millions, some of the most respected

brands in the world use Squarespace and using Squarespace starts at just $8 a month. Plus, you get a free domain if you sign up for just one year. You can start your free trial site today with no credit card required at Squarespace.com. And when you do sign up, as I mentioned, use the offer code Aisha to get 10% off your first purchase. It is simple. It is intuitive. It is easy. Your site will look beautiful no matter what platform or device people look at it on. And that's really what you want. You don't want to be trying to figure out how this is supposed to work. I want to thank Squarespace for their ongoing support of Grong Guide. They've been buying advertising on my show for a while,

and I'm really stoked that they continue to support the show. And you can support the show as well by when you decide to build your new website by using Squarespace. So go to Squarespace.com and use the offer code Aisha, A-I-S-H-A to get 10% off your first purchase. That is Squarespace.com. Squarespace, build it beautiful. All right, this episode is with Andreiio. So I'm pleased with myself. What a jackass.

Anyway, Andre Royo is an incredible actor. He is joining this season of the television mega hit empire, the record-setting drama empire on Fox, which started last Wednesday. He joins the series this week, this Wednesday, September 30th. He joins the cast of Empire, which is adding a bunch of heavy hitters this season, including Andre Royo and Adam Rodriguez.

And it is, if you're a fan of the show, then you are going to be stoked to see him arrive. Andre is an alumni of one of the greatest television shows, if not the greatest television show, of modern times The Wire. And I have to tell you something, you'll hear in this episode how affected I was by his performance on this show. If you haven't watched The Wire, the great thing about living in modern America is that you can watch any television show ever made just by going on to the interwebs. And you can go back and start the Wire from the beginning. It is a masterpiece of television and says and does so many things about American culture, about American economics, about the drug trade, about our culture, about race, about gender, about every single thing.

It is a show that is both so specific and so universal at the same time, and it has spawned a bunch of massive television stars, several of which have gone on to international superstardom, including Idris Elba, and many people who are now, who have now joined the cast of The Walking Dead. So it's a sensational show. it out. Dominic West, I think, is now on The Affair. That show is just shock full of brilliant actors, and they've all moved on to do great things, but it is worth seeing them do some of their best work on this show. Michael K. Williams, who played Omar, has also been a guest on Girl

on Guy. Guy. You can go back and listen to that episode by going to Girl on Guy.combe on guy.net and clicking on archive. But right now you get to enjoy the magic of Andre Royo, who is smart and lovely and funny and talented and was a joy to interview and was my very first guest in the brand new Girl and Guy Bunker. So get into this with your face. This is Andre Royo, Girl on Guy, 197, bringing season five to New Heights, and it's coming at you, straight out of the brand spanking new Echoy, grow on guy bunker, and right into your face. Andre Royo, welcome to my show.

Thank you for having me. Your last name is Spanish, isn't it? Yes, but I'm a little jealous because you said it so much better than I ever could say it. I can't roll my tongue in that way. No? In that particular way, in other ways. It drives my dad crazy. My father's Cuban.

And for some reason, I have a fat tongue, and it just won't roll. Every time I say Andre Royo I always get Williams No, Royo You have like your own Very kind of specific I mean no one No one will mistake you for anybody else

Except for Rocky Baboa Which I always get a lot But yes I have a very Specific articulation And voice But you also have the accent Where did you grow up? I grew up in the Bronx

Okay yeah I was gonna guess either Bronx or Brooklyn See and only if you're from the Bronx and Brooklyn Can you tell the two apart That's right If you're from San Francisco go, you can't, I don't know, what the fuck, over there. Well, you know, I would hope so, because

you know, Bronx and Brooklyn, we, you know, we have a history. No, we're not next to each other. No, we're very far apart. Are you? Okay. It's a long, it's a long train ride. Is it on the other side of the island? Okay. Yes, it's on other side. So if you had a girlfriend in Brooklyn, you must really love her. She must really give you the business

for you to take that long train ride. Now, before we started at the beginning, I want to say, I was just, I was just coming to sit down and I said, I started to figure out the last time I saw you. And I think the last time, I must, And I must have seen you even briefly sometime in between, but I want to say the last time I saw it was on the set at The Wire when I visited. Do you remember that?

I don't. I was full in. That was damn near method. That was full. Straight method. Straight method. You were just straight bubbles. Yes.

I didn't. I shadowed with, with, uh... With that Anthony Hemingway? No, no, no, no. I see, I'm about to, I'm at that age now where I can't remember a fucking thing. And I can see his beautiful face in my head. The guy used to DP for Spike, and now he's this incredible director. Ernest Dick.

Ernest Dickerson. Yes, exactly. Yes. You shout on to direct. I shout on to direct. I came down for like a week and I had that every day. Yeah, that was just so cool.

And did you direct? I have. I just been doing a lot of short film. I haven't done a future yet, but I'm doing a lot of shorts. Congratulations. He's a great guy. He's the best.

Yes, he came and directed a couple episodes of a, he directed an episode of Hand of God too. Oh, yeah. He's just real cool and he's honest and he's one of the type of directors that when he's behind the camera, you feel safe. You feel safe, yeah.

And he's kind, too. You feel like he's in control, but that doesn't kind of push out his kindness. I always feel like he's a real kind dude. I was shadowing with him on the wire. It was the one where a little dude got shot and a season five. That's a lot.

That's a lot of people I shot. It was the school season, so it was a season with Snoop. See, I honestly need to probably see a doctor because I have the worst memory ever. Anyway, and I remember he was setting up some shot and he had made some lens choice. And I was like, Ernest, he goes, you about to ask me,

I picked that lens. I said, yes I am. He said, I don't fucking know. I don't know. I got you what it look like. Yeah, exactly. And if I don't like it, then I, you know, go to another lens. Exactly that. Exactly that. Yeah, it's cool. Okay, we're starting at the beginning. So you grew up in the Bronx.

In the beginning. I grew up in the Bronx. And you're half Cuban and half American? Yes. Half Cuban, half Harlem. Half Harlem. My mom's a black chick from Harlem. I wonder what, like, the Cuban culture is very strong, I think, in New York. In New York, but not in the Bronx. Okay.

More so, like Spanish Harlem, you know, a little bit of way, mostly in Harlem and Manhattan, but in my neighborhood in the Bronx, I had a big choice, and it was either between Minuto or New Edition. And I went New Edition. You went New Edition. Yeah, I went New Edition. And I, you know, I don't regret it, but as I got older, I am upset that I don't know, like I can't speak Spanish. Right, right. No.

Does I feel like that you needed to do that to fit in? You needed to do that to kind of find a place. No, there was just no Spanish people around. I didn't understand the point of learning a language when everybody in my neighborhood was speaking black. Right. And in my house, my mom was the loudest. So, he was right.

You know, so my father, you know, I only heard a couple of things. Like, caete la voca, I told him me a buneta, guerno. You know, shut up and all that stuff. Right. Other than that, it just didn't seem necessary. and if I looked on, you know, when I looked on the movies, you know, most of the Spanish, most of the Spanish players were being played by Italians. Right.

So I figured it don't matter what I speak, I'm not going to get the part. So, you know, I didn't, I didn't take it as seriously as I'm trying to do now. Right, right. Are you trying to kind of reconnect with you? I'm trying to, and everybody's telling me that I'm at that age where it's going to be harder to retain stuff. I got the Vezetta Stone, I got the goddamn burlitz. It's so hard.

Nothing works, yes. You know, I mean, because, you know, the thing is, even if you're practicing every day, you really need to be forced to form your own ideas in that language. And that's the hardest thing to do. Have you been to Cuba? I have not been to Cuba yet. See, the problem with you is if you went to Cuba, everyone would run up and start talking to you and see that. And they'd get mad at me. And then I'm like, I'm a sellout. Like, why are you denouncing your race? So, I'm, um, Americano. That's all I have to. So it's going to be, I've been told I need to get like just a Spanish female side lover. Yes. So I'm hoping I'm going to work

on that. I'm working on that. Working on that. That might be helpful. That would be, that would be a start. Yeah, because it would be forced. A pleasant start. You know, and all my, you know. I love it.

I see you next time. You're like, I found my Cuban lover, but we don't, we didn't speak no. We didn't speak no. We're speaking. Language of love. I was wondering who, which one of us was going to do that first.

So when you were growing up, and that we were your dad, and he was obviously like an immigrant. No, second generation. Second generation. But he did grow up with, he did grow up with, he did grow up with, like his Cuban parents of Spanish culture and everything like that. Yes, he did.

How interesting. Yeah. And did any of that culture bleed in? Like, did any of that culture bleed in? Like I said, no. On my father's side, it was all Spanish and all Cuban. They all spoke it. They all cooked it. They all slept with it. And, you know, I was the only child.

And I'm in the Bronx. Every holiday, I would go to my mom's side of the family first and 1505 McCombs. And after that, we'd go to the Spanish side and eat and talk. then I, it just didn't, for some reason, it just didn't stick. My mom was the dominant. Right. You know. That happens anyway for most kids of people from other cultures that you just,

either because you want to or because it just feels natural, you just kind of end up being an American kid. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and the schools were all, you know, black and Italian. I went to Mount St. Michael Academy, which is mostly black and Italian. And again, you just didn't feel the need to speak to. You thought you might want to.

Right. Or who needs to. No, no. It didn't know. Yeah. You know, it's a necessity or it should be a necessity now. Yeah, yeah. We're like one of the only cultures,

at least only kind of like, I don't have a better phrase. So the only first world culture is where we can only speak our own language. You know, you go to Europe. It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing. It's all right. It's embarrassing.

It is. It is. We were going to Sweden. I was like all up at the top and shit by Santa Claus and everybody still spoke English. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

We don't want to have our shit together. When you were growing up, were you like an artistic kid. You were an only kid. I was only child. So I was really, really, the world is mine and the world revolves around me

and I wasn't artistic that I knew of I was just very thirsty for attention and I liked being in the center in the spotlight you know the classic class clown you know

in the neighborhood fuck up and just cracking jokes and you know for me it was also a form of protection where I would entertain you know the big boys in the neighborhood dudes

and be like, yo, you know, you're real funny. You know, because I found out later on in my neighborhood that I was the only one who, on the block, who was growing up with his mom and dad in the same household. And I didn't know that until later on. That that was unusual. Yeah. Most of my friends either grew up with their grandparents

or the mom or the dad. Yeah. So I was doing things like, you know, having family night and going to the movies with my family, my mom and dad. So when I came back to the neighborhood, but they wanted to hear stories. Like, what do you and your mom and dad do? Like, what, you're having dinner?

Like, and I used to entertain them. I guess I was, like, their version of the, you know, of the Brady Bunch, right? Right, right. Right. Like, just telling them, like, household stories about what's going on. And, you know. Probably just, like, how does that work, right?

Yeah, you know. Yeah. And then I was a latchkey. So, you know, from, like, three to six, mom and dad both worked, the house was to myself. And I used to have, like, a lot of friends over, I rent out some rooms, you know what I mean? I love an in-house, yeah, a little in-house brothel.

So, you know, I just, the neighborhood just seemed to like me. Yeah. It just seemed to like my energy. And they were very supportive as with my mom and dad. When the whole acting thing or bug started to smolder, where they were like, you should be, you know, I used to recite movies and, you know, act them out. Did you just love movies when you were a kid? Yeah.

I just loved movies a lot. And I was always the weird kid in the neighborhood because I would love the, I guess, for lack of a better word, the white movies. Like, my favorite was Kramer versus Kramer, the big chill. They were like, what the fuck at all? What is that, man? You know, the hustler was my favorite movie, you know, still is, you know, with Paul Newman. So it's just, it was just, I was the different kid.

And my neighborhood guys would always try to protect me and keep me focused on that. Like, you know, your mom and dad sent you to, I went to all boys, you know, Catholic school. So I walked around, you know, with this little suit on. I didn't know anything about Kangos or Nike's or a pony. Everything was British walkers or playboys and, you know, full double-rested suits. So I look weird. I look like a little, yeah, yeah, hey, that's that little kid going to school. So they used to look out for me and make sure that I stayed on the straight and narrow.

So, you know, I always tell people that come up to me, you know, and say, you know, what do you do, or how do you make it in this industry? I'm like, you just got it. The first thing, the only thing I do know, because this industry has no rules. No. It's not a playbook to it. And it's impossible to tell people how to do it because you can't even really say how you did it. No.

So much of it is like magic on some level. Yeah. The only thing you can have is support. Yeah. And you better have that. You know, there was nothing worse than growing up in New York with no money because, you know, I just was buying head shots and paying for classes. And my friends just helped me.

They used to believe in me sometimes when I didn't believe in myself. Right. And take care you. Like, be in the club. They buy, you know, they get you in. They buy you a drink. Right. They give you a little extra money for headshots, what have you.

And you kind of, you felt like, you know, you weren't just doing it for yourself anymore. you were doing it for the people's. So it was wonderful. I got lucky. Yeah. Had a great support group, not just from the family, but from the neighborhood. How did you feel, you were going to this Catholic school and you had two parents at home? And did you have a sense that that, I mean, other than the kids telling you that that was unique?

You're saying you didn't notice that none of the other kids had their parents at home. But I mean, like, you ever once you want while you talk to somebody, they'll be like, okay, I know I escaped like my neighborhood. Like it was unique that I got out. It was unique that I ended up going the direction that I went in. Did you feel that a sense of that when you were a kid? Like, oh, every, that there was, whatever, that there was like a group of kids in the neighborhood that were going to be stuck there. Again, I felt, I felt like I don't know if unique is the right word. But I felt like, you know, I wanted something that everybody didn't talk about or didn't think they could get.

But again, they kind of, you know, gravitated towards me and said, yeah, you can do this. You can get it. So I didn't feel unique. I felt supported. I felt like, yo, these guys, even these guys say I can do it. They think I'm funny or they think I'm talented. And, you know, I didn't know it was going to be acting. Like, I used to look at my father.

My father was very quiet, dude. And I used to look at him. The only time I really saw different layers of emotion was when he was watching TV. Like, he would laugh and Fred Astaire or John. Wayne or Sidney Pauline and he would always have me sit down and watch these movies with him and he talked me about him and why he liked these persons and that person and I just felt like I wanted to be in that type of business that can get somebody like this quiet and serious to open up. Yeah.

I want to do that. Yeah. Everybody who made it was about, oh, they found me in an ice cream parlor. I got picked out, you know, when I was coming out the plane, you know. So I was just walking around wherever I thought white people were. I walked around and just be like this. Notice me. Yo, notice me.

I'm right here. I'm right here. I can act. White people. White people. I have a ride. I got something, I got a story to tell. I'm talented.

And, you know, when it didn't happen, I was doing construction and waiting tables. And I was like, man, that didn't work out. I guess it wasn't meant to be. And then a friend of mine that was living in a low-east. side, his girl was going to an acting class called H.B. Studios. And I was like, what's that? And she was like, oh, it's an acting class. I said, is it like a university? Because I ain't got no, no. You know, per class, you can pay for it. And I was like, let me go with you. I walked in, I walked in Greenwich Village. I went to the spot. And I was just amazed. It was like this

open little black box theater rooms. And I went in and it was just people acting. And I just was like, okay, this is a start. And I went there. And of course, you know, my personality. I got to teach you to let me go to class for free if I set up the chairs and all that. So I felt like a little bit of the hustler side of me, you know, came out and I did that. How old were you at that age? I was, I want to say, I mean, we're talking maybe 25's late, you know, 25, 26. I did the whole college thing in Florida that didn't work out because I just didn't have the discipline or the, I couldn't keep still. Right.

And I knew wherever I was, it wasn't really meant for me. I was doing it for somebody else, like going to college for my parents or going to college because that's what you're supposed to do. But nothing was sticking. And I just kept bouncing around. The last job I had before acting or before I made the decision, and I was doing construction with my dad. And mixing cement in Manhattan somewhere, I think it's 62nd in New York. And this Italian, old Italian dude came up to me and was like, yo, your dad said, you like, movies you want to be an actor.

I said, yeah, I thought about it, and he was like, you got to quit. And I was like, what are you talking about? I'm making like $3,000 a week after taxes. I'm rich right now. I'm not quitting. And he's like, you're going to wake up 40, and it's over. And it just for some reason it just bugged me out.

And then he just walked away. That's all I have to say. Now go give me a cup of coffee and get the boys fucking, you know, handmade and cheese in a row. And for some reason when I was walking to, you know, get the coffee order, I just didn't understand why. we don't know each other. And there's like a race thing, a different dude.

You know, and I was like, why would he even take the time to say that? And it kind of spooked me a little bit. I was like, maybe somebody somewhere is trying to tell me something. Or maybe he wanted to get his nephew a job when I was in the way. He might have been like, yo, the fucking moly got a job here. What is he doing? Get him out of here. I don't know.

I want to say that it was the first thing because it's more romantic. I'm a romantic type of dude. And, you know, I told my dad, my dad came over, you know, woke me up the next morning, 5 a.m. I'm like, yo, let's go. Time to go to go to work. And I was like, yeah, I don't think I'm going. I think I'm going to go, I'm going back to go down to HB Studios and see if I can take more

classes. And, you know, again, what was unique was that I found out later also was my dad at that time was like, okay, get some rest and close the door. And when I tell my friends, you know, in the school at HB that, they were, a lot more people were surprised at that.

They said their parents weren't supporting them. Their parents didn't want them to do, you know, be an actor or an artist. My mom and dad, you know, were like, go for it. Just do something. Do something. Right. You seem like you're good at that.

People always say you got the energy. So if you want to do it, we got your back. Yeah. And that was probably the most unique part about, I guess, my growing up was, my parents never gave me reason to doubt. Right. You know, and I hung out with Spike Lee one time, and he was getting an award for something.

And he made a speech, and he said, the number one killer of dreams are parents. And not because they mean to, they're just scared. Yeah. You don't want your kid to suffer. You don't want a kid to deal with that kind of, you know, the peaks and valleys in this business. Oh, deep valleys. You know, and, you know, I have a daughter.

I could be, she's a dancer and I could be scared. I do get scared, but, you know, this is a, you know. But you live through it, though. That's the difference. Yeah, because you got to, I mean. Yeah, you see, you know what it feels like. Yes. Of course, it's painful.

But you also know it can be rewarding in ways that have nothing to do with money. Nothing with money. Even in the valley, when it's, when I ain't working, like when two years, I ain't working. And everybody thought I was just a junkie for real. I mean, it's moments where you're like, what's going on? But I just remember, you know, riding the trains in New York and going to the city or going to Brooklyn. And just looking at the train and looking at people and going, half the people are unhappy. Wherever they're going, they just don't seem happy.

And I told my daughter, look, I don't know, you know, if it's going to work out or not. But for me, the fun and the success and the happiness is in the trying. Because to do nothing or just to give in. Well, then, you know, I don't know. I don't know what that's about. And I don't want to be overbearing because my personality is kind of big. I'm saying, for me, I couldn't do it.

I'd rather be on the train, doing a monologue on a platform for change than being successfully in a cubicle and just being like, well, this is boring. Right, right, and this is stretching on, you know, into the future. Yeah, this is, so this is the life I chose. I rather, the struggle at least keeps me aware

that, you know, I'm hungry and alive. Yes. Alive. So. I like what you just said. So you go down to HB Studios. I go to HB Studios and I'm just, I'm doing it. You're down there hustling.

Just acting and I'm getting, you know, the funny thing about HB Studios, just in class, I would get a lot of accolary. I would do these little like hat full of rain and does a tiger wear a necktie, all these wonderful plays. And I would get like, oh, my God, you're so great. Oh, your energy is so good, blah, blah. But I also noticed I was an only black kid there. And I was like, wait a man, I don't know if my energy is great or just me being black.

different. Am I as good if I'm in a one full of black people? Or do I just sink or shrink and be like, oh, you're normal? So, you know, I've always, you know, I think that's the one thing that kept me pushing forward or not being complacent was I always wanted to see how, like, I always wanted

to feel how good am I? Like, how good can I really be? And I left HB Studios and I met this chick and she had a theater company in the Lower East side. And I was like, well, I want to go do that because then I'll be surrounded by more blacks and more spanish. Let me see if my energy really does compare to other cats. Lois side was an old school called Teatro Latea.

And we had our own little theater company. We had in-house writers. And we would do all these different kind of plays and sketches. And it was kind of big. And it was like at the emergencies like mid, late 90s, late 90s, from 97, 899, where off-Broadway had its own unique name. I mean, New York is Broadway, but that was all music. You can sing and dance you on Broadway.

Other than that, you ain't doing it. And off Broadway was like the public, La Mama, PS122, all these different little small theater companies that were trying to stay clean. And we had one, Room 203, and we were walking. We were getting nice little buzz and everything. And then, of course, you know, too many actors were fucking each other. And, you know, it all went to shit,

because, you know, jealousy and ego. Right, so-so, fuck, so-and-so, but so-and-so, nobody want to talk no more. It got ugly, but I realized that, you know, I was good. Right. Even amongst my own, I was good. And then, you know, I was working the door. I used to work at the door. I was the guy that used to be like, you can come in at a club.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was called the Cheetah Club. Okay. Hot club in New York. You know, and hip-hop was already blown up now. So we really are staking claim in the club. culture of the city.

Yeah. And that's where I met John Singleton. Okay. Oh, wow. Working the door at the club. Working the door at the club. This story is great. Yeah, one of my people's called me up like, yo, I'm with John Singleton. Yo, I'm with John Singleton. We come to the club. You know, he's doing this movie in

New York, Shab. And I was like, yo, that's kind of cool. Because my dad, mom and dad know the movie, that'd be a good first movie, you know, I can relay, bring mom and pop to the fucking theater. And, you know, so I had to make a show of it. You know, I was like, Let me know when you're coming down with John

and I'll make sure you'll get in And so they would call me Like, we're on our way, we're coming up now And I'll be like, yo, all right, look, the club is closed Nobody can get in, fire muscles inside, shut it down You'll go home, though, you definitely go home Look at the, are you wearing ass-of-watch jeans? Get the fuck out of here, you're out!

And I shut down the joint and then I see him coming I'm like, oh, hold on, hold on. Let's sing with him, a single thing. Come on, you come in, you come in. And made it a big show and he came in and was like, thank you so much. And my girl says you're an actor. I'm like, yeah, I'm doing this movie.

Shab, want you, you know, come down an audition. Yeah, you got it, Mr. Singleton. Look, the VIP area is over there. We get you in, get you a bottle. And, you know, that's how, I guess, the energy of me not just being satisfied with filming television. Yeah. I mean, me not being satisfied with the stage with off Broadway.

Yeah. And I knew I wasn't doing Broadway because I can't sing. So, you know, I auditioned for Shad like five times and didn't get it. It was a small part, but it didn't get it. And I was cool with it. Yeah. You know, the energy was kind of cool. I was a little disappointed, you know.

Not that in a bottle of Jack Daniels, you can't erase. Always. You know, take a hit, you know. It always makes it feel better. Yeah. Unless you have a real drinking problem, and then you resolve that shit on your. That's right. For me, it always makes me feel better.

12 step. Hit that meet it. So, you know, and then, you know, I saw John again in another club, a bungalow. Oh, a bungalow eight? Yeah, bungalow eight. And he was on his way in and he kind of was headed towards, you know, saying what's up to me? Because I guess he felt like I might be a little annoyed. Right, right.

So he's like, oh, what's up? I'm like, oh, then. go your way. I said, look, it don't matter, man. I'm a fan of yours. You're making great movies. If that movie makes money, that means you'll make more movies. And soon or later, we'll work together. Class. And it kind of hit him. Kind of like, you're a cool dude. We hugged it out.

And that was it. And then all of a sudden, like, maybe about a month later, I got a call saying, yo, some actor stepped out. You got the part. And I was like, what? And I went in, and, you know, it was a weird situation. You know, it was weird because nobody knew I was coming. So I called a little, like, who the fuck is this guy? Who's this guy? What happened to so and so?

And I was like, I'm the new guy and, you know, sitting between Jeffrey Wright and Sam Jackson, it's education. You better be prepared. You better be prepared. You better not fuck up to let you have it. Sam could forget his line. You can't be forgetting your life. You can't be like missing.

You can't do anything wrong. And Jeffrey Wright is a beast. Yeah. He's another one that's damn near method. And, you know, respect to the art and the artistry, come prepared. We're here to work. And I learned a lot. I learned a lot being with these two guys.

and just being in the business in that small capacity. My Spanish sucked ass. My father was upset. But it just introduced me to what that world is like. And I won't say that I was in love with it. It was a different process than theater. It's a lot of waiting. A lot of waiting.

And I wonder how disorienting it was for you. Very. Because, so for people out there who are listening, a lot of this is going to be super inside baseball. But the way you make a film or television show is so different from theater. One of the main things, being that with a play, you rehearse, you rehearse, then when you do it, you do the whole story kind of straight through.

And you've made a lot of choices in rehearsal that are, not necessarily locked in place when you finally did the performance, but you've really thought about them, right? You've really worked them out. Film and television typically, there's never a rehearsal. You get one opportunity to walk it through. Yeah, block it out. You block it out. And while you're talking and doing the scene,

they got motherfuckers throwing tape down on where you're going to stand. Right, right. And you can't change it. And when you, here's the funny, Sometimes you rehearse it, though, mark what you've decided. Then when you leave, they'll be like, that didn't work for camera. None of your shit's happening. Now you're standing over here.

You're looking at the window. And now, you know, so it's, in a lot of ways, it's harder to be creative in that. Yes. And then also it's bewildering. You're like, where do I look? I mean, there's a lot of that stuff because you've never done any of that before. A lot of stuff going on. And I must apologize to all the artists out there on the screen, small screen and big screen.

Because when I was doing theater, we used to laugh at you motherfuckers. We did. We did. The theater actor was like, what, you need a close-up, motherfucker? They don't believe you. They can't see your pain unless they do close-up. You need a music score behind your fucking words so they can feel your pain. You know, we're like, we're theater.

I mean, you step on that stage, you better be all or nothing. You don't get a take two, motherfucker. Like, we used to laugh at that. We used to laugh at that. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I had the ego when I was in shaft. All that shit just slapped me in the face. All that, you know, everything in theater, you're on.

stage, you're the important person. You're the storyteller. In the movie game, everything is important. Right. Every single thing. Your shirt is on crooked. Oh, it's the wrong shirt. Oh, you had the glass in the wrong hand. Oh, you didn't hit your mark. Yeah, you can't be like in the moment. No, those are in the moment. If you picked it up, if you picked that glass up with your right hand, you'd never, yeah. And then you're like, but it doesn't feel, but I don't get to fuck about your feelings. I'm not going to mark it. You know, you know, breaking down and crying because somebody died, you know, you do that shit great. You got to do it. six more times. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Not the next day. Six more times, like, right now. You're just like, yo. So, you know, there is a certain, there is a certain fesbianic preparation and process that you guys have that I bow down to and had had to learn a hallway. But I appreciate, I appreciate the film and television actor as well. I'm glad you see it. I learned, yes. It's true, there's a different stamina. There's a different stamina in film, right? Theater, you get the day to prepare and then everything comes out in the hour.

Yeah, and you know how to process it because you know, you know, curtains at 8 o'clock. Eight o'clock, curtain goes up. So you get to the theater around 7.30 and you set your little room up, you prepare, you meditate, and you go. And film and television, you know, you can get a call time at 6 a.m. You can be ready to block, but you might not be shooting the one. Right, right, right.

So now you guys just sit around, don't overthink it, don't overrun it, but what do you do for four hours? You get distracted. Right. Or you just do not, like you just don't know what to do. And it takes a long time to realize what works best for you. Right. And to make yourself nimble.

You have to be so nimble. That's right. Because shit changes that you don't process on your own. Like you said, the director changes things. Your co-star just doesn't feel like he wants to do it a certain way. And you have to let all that come in and you've got to be able to adjust really quick and still be organic. And it still be truthful. And that's true.

Yeah, and that's the beast. And there was nothing more, you know, that's, again, the theater was cool and after shaft. You know, I did okay. I mean, everybody liked my look, you know, I look different. I look like a crazy guy with all his hair. You know, people can feel something about my energy that came out on the screen, and I appreciate that. But then I went back to theater, and I was like, that was horrible. Like, that was a slap in the face.

That was horrible. I don't like that feeling at all. I don't want to do that ever again. I'm going to go back to theater. And, you know, my lady was like, yeah, but what about the, I'm pregnant. Okay, I want to go back to film and television. Never mind. That was a joke.

I want to go back. And I was a little nervous about what to do. And I loved, again, I loved the stage. And I was about to, I had just finished doing this 24-hour play for celebrity. A celebrity 24-hour play. Oh, they do that every year. It's like raises money, right, for charity. But it's 24 hours of like one-hour plays or one-act plays?

It's like, it's this thing where, you know, the first time we did it. It started in my theater company in the low East side. That's when they first, like, some of the people came up with the idea, or they brought the idea there, and it was like trying it out. And by the time after Shaft, they were doing this 24-hour celebrity play, and it was for 9-11. Okay. And it was, I mean, it was Philip Seema Hoffman, Julianne Moore.

Phil Hoffman was the one that I remember. Yeah. Big dogs, right? And what happens is at 10 p.m. on Sunday, actors, writers, and directors all meet up in the room, and they all say, hey, how you doing? my name is so-and-so, I'm an actor, or I'm a writer, and they all get together and say hello. Then the actors and directors leave.

The writers stay there in the theater overnight, and they write like 10, you know, sketches or whatever, little plays, like 10-minute plays. And then the next morning at 8 o'clock a.m., the directors come, look at all the plays and pick the ones they want to do, and then they cast it from these little polaroids from all the actors. The actors come in at 10 o'clock,

like before 10 o'clock in the morning, and just start rehearsing. They find out what they're doing. They got the director they're working with, and they're all just sitting around round robin and just, you know, rehearse. Then you get on stage at 6 p.m. to block it and do like a tech rehearsal real quick.

And 8 p.m. Monday night, the show was up. And the audience is always sold out, and you're talking about fear. You're talking about, you know, some writer wrote like three or five monologues in his play, and, you know, you've got to memorize that. And actors who don't like, who are not used to,

messing up or putting themselves in the vulnerability of messing up in front of people. Any imperfection, yeah. So that paranoia, you know, some of the actors were throwing up. You know, you always feel like, why did that sound about? You know, I could have been watching football. Right. I'm going to be in my sweatpants right now. Yeah.

And, you know, the audience, luckily for us, the audience wants you to fuck up. Like, they look forward to seeing how you handle it and, you know, you had to put out the script like, yeah, I forgot my line. Sorry, I just got it this morning, what you want. And, you know, and the audience is laughing. And I had a great time. And I had a great time. That, even hearing that is so exciting to me.

It's a rush. Because the fear of it is probably what adds to this kind of, oh, like, art is ephemeral and maybe not being so precious about all of your work. What was that word? Art is ephemeral. Hold on, man. Look, I'm not even going to lie. I got to look up shit.

I like hearing words like that so that I can look it up and then use it. SAT word. Ephemoral means like impermanent, impermanent, right? Like, it fleeting. It slips through your fingers. But, I mean, because, you know, again, like, With theater especially, so by like hammering and hammering and hammering, finding every moment getting it perfect. And then it must be frightening, but it must have been very freeing to say, like, I'm not going to, this won't be perfect.

That's it. You expose yourself, you know, you, yeah, it's a rush. It was great. And so I just did that, and I was feeling good. And the next day, and the Tuesday morning, I'm walking around with a big head because I locked it. And then my manager called him was like, yo, HBO was having an audition for a show called Oire. And I was like, hey, hey, that's the, that's the network with Oz and Sopano, yo, I'm down for that. That's the hot joint.

Yeah, it's a wire. What's it about? Oh, is it drugs? I'm like, yo, I don't know, but, you know, I don't get them black rolls. I ain't black enough for the black rolls. I don't get them. And I'm like, no, I was like, hell no. Yeah, you weren't even interested.

I was like, I was just annoyed. At first I was annoyed. At first I was annoyed. Is that even going to be a meaningful role? That's like a dude who, like, water's through. Are we doing junkies still? I mean, I'm not, I can't do better than Pookie. You know, I can't do better than Gator.

Like, I've seen it, you know, and I don't want to, I don't, I don't know if I can do, if I feel like I can do better then, I don't know what the point is. And if I feel like it's just going to be demeaning and just short-lived, why, I'm a dude who just killed it on stage. I got, I got different plans. Yeah. And luckily my manager knew my back account. And she was like this, motherfucker, you broke. They didn't offer you the role. They asked you to go audition.

How about that? You don't get to pass. How about you go audition first and see what you say then? You might not even get it. And, you know, I took that as a challenge. I was like, what do you mean? What do you mean? I might not get it.

Right. And so I went in and that was another, another process where I auditioned like five times. Yeah. And it felt really about the fifth time. Of course I wanted it. Yeah. Tell me I'm not the dude. You look at me in my fucking face.

You tell me I'm not the dude for this joint. Right. And it was hard. It was hard and it was stressful. And the idea that I might not get it. probably would have crushed me at that time. Yeah. Because I went all in, you know.

And when I got it, you know, of course it was a game-changer. But it was also weird because, you know, we was in Baltimore and we were kind of left alone to our own devices. Right. And we didn't know what we were, you know. All of us, not all of us, but we knew the script was good. The pilot script we knew was good. But we also were programmed to know what a cop show it looks like.

And this wasn't exciting. It wasn't like everybody was, there wasn't a lot of sex. There wasn't even a lot of shooting and cars. It wasn't NYPD or the shield. We were like, there's a lot of talking. Or even Homicide Life on the street. Not a lot of talking.

You know, a lot of talking. And we were like, yo, homicide life on the street, it was another show that was great, but you didn't really hear about it. You had to be in the know. You had to be in the know, this is a great show. So, you know, we just was like,

this is not going to work. We're going to be the fucking black sheep or HBO. We're going to be the ones that fuck it up. Right, right. At that point, they had like a hits. Right. Nothing but hits. Yeah.

Sex and the city. Juananos, Oz. Yeah. So we were like, we're going to be the ones that fuck it up. And I'm not going to say that at that time we didn't. I mean, when the first season came out, we got like half a star. Really? Oh, yeah.

Daily News and New York Post said a show that's muddled in its own importance. A show that thinks it's a book. We can't understand the word they're saying. Oh. We don't know what they're talking about. There's too many characters. Oh, too many characters. We got smashed.

We got smashed. I remember going to David Simon and like, you know, they hate us. Can we do something? Can we show some asses? Can we shoot some more people? And, you know, him being who he is and his confidence, he was like, no, I'm not going to dumb it down for nobody. They will catch on.

And if they don't, I'm happy doing what I did because I'm doing this for a reason, not just to entertain. And at that time, I was like, fucking cocky white guy. God damn it. Can we eat? We're trying to make a career out of this fucking business. I mean, he was right. And, again, people come up to me now,

and it's so wonderful because of this. the landscape of television and social media that the wire is still like brand new for a lot of people. You know? And it has such weight now. But we didn't see it coming. We, nobody, not nobody, but we had very small numbers.

We were on from 2000 to 2005. That's 10 years ago. Yeah. 15, right? That's a long time ago. And, you know, I remember after the third season, we got canceled. After, you know, we killed Stringa Bell,

a sexy motherfucker. Yeah. Once he was dead. There was a lot of power. People in the game that thought this wire was over. And HBO kind of felt like the wire ran his course.

Right. So, you know, I was out here in L.A. like, trying to figure it out. I think I was testing for my name as Earl. I was going to be crab man, you know? And David Simon called and it was like, yo, I just sent some scripts to HBO about the fourth season.

We might be coming back. And I was like, oh, for real. And then, you know, it happened. We came back. But when the show was all over, I was back in LA, and it was so weird, like, five or six years later to be driving my goddamn Yaris and, you know, going to get some coffee and picking up the paper saying the wire is one of the greatest show ever. I was like, well, where the fuck were y'all? Where were y'all in 2000? When I needed some goddamn awards, when I could have been, like, getting swag bags and doing some red carpet shit.

Now we're the fucking greatest show ever when I'm dropping a Yaris and trying to get some winter donuts? What the hell? All right. I have to tell you something, and then I have so many questions. Because it's rare that someone's kind of like first big break is something so culturally influential. Yes. I mean, obviously Shaft was the break, but this was like. No, this is the game changer.

But again, it wasn't. It didn't feel that way at the time. It wasn't a game changer at the time. Right, right. And I'll tell you something about the show. And then I want to ask you about like the character specifically because I watched the wire when it was on. and when look, spoiler alert

everybody and I actually can't even remember the episode of a month it was maybe in season two or season three anyway when Bubbles relapsed like I had to stop watching like I was that upset about it

like I remember being like oh I need a minute and I was like I can't go I can't go back I can't I'm too upset that was how important that character was to me and so I have

a few questions and the first one is when you were going in to audition for that character, right? And as an actor, I don't want to be one of the people like, who did you draw on? Maybe you didn't draw on any motherfucking body. Maybe you just decided. Maybe you just decided who this person was and what his interior life was like.

But I just wonder, for you, were there specific, what were the, if you feel comfortable sharing them, what the specific ideas you had about bubbles when you went into audition for him and how they changed once you started playing him? Because I just loved him. I was so attached to him. More than almost anybody on the show, more than Omar. He became like the tender heart of the show.

Not more than Omar. Everybody says that, but deep down we know. Well, because Omar, you feared Omar. You feared. You liked Omar. And you admired him, but you loved Bobbs. You loved Bob's. Here's the thing.

First of all, first I'll say, oh, I love Bob. I tease with Omar. Michael Kenneth is my man. Yeah. And it was so lovely to know that, you know, when he came down to the show, people would always say, like, eat the bubbles, or Omar. It was bubbles in Omar. And I always felt like what was great about the business in the industry, everything's been done and redone and done again. You know, it's unique to

find a different character that's never been seen before. And he hadn't been. And the Omar character has never seen before. Well, neither of them. You were saying, oh, I played a donkey, but there was something so, okay. So, so with. I clearly, I was clearly a fan. Okay. So I would say, of course, like, again, the audition was weird because I didn't know anything about the character. You know, you get like a couple of sides. Yeah. Yeah. You get a couple of, you know, so I I didn't get the script. And there was no time to prepare. I didn't know about that kind of addiction.

You know, my addiction, I guess, not addiction, but I know about whiskey. I know about liquor. Right, right, right, right. But the idea of need, I know. Need, yes. You know what I mean? It was very simple for the addition. If you ain't got time to really, like, do a lot of research or preparation, you've got to go by your instinctive desire that connects you to this character.

And this character needed to get high. He needed to get a fix. He needed to do something to erase some certain pain that he had in his life in my mind from the sides. Me, I needed a job. I needed to eat. I need to shut up my lady and my manager. And some of the people in my mind, I just started thinking about all the people who said I couldn't do it. And I had to go in the head like this.

I really, really need this to happen. Like Bubbles needs to hit. And I remember going into the audition room just with that. This was the idea. I was so scared of being a character that I didn't want to watch anything. I tried to erase any idea of what I've seen as far as junkies doing because you can do anybody

to mimic at that time in my mind. So I was like, just go in and just be you and just understand how bad you want this and everything around you is telling you you can't. So that just had me so like, how can you say no? Like how? Why? And for some reason it kind of resonated. When I got in the room, I saw other actors there, you know, like chewing bubble gum.

And I was like this. Really? That's your choice. Because the character's name is bubbles. You got some gum, really? I went to the bathroom. I threw out my gum. I threw out my motherfuck and gum.

Like, shit. That was just to fall back on just in case I couldn't feel it in the room. I just pulled out some gum. Like, get it? Bubbles. So luckily I saw that. So I threw my gum out. And again, it was just, you know, it's those moments, you know.

I think that anybody in any kind of job feels where, you know, you look at yourself and go, you got to do it. Like, if it works or not, there's something that you can't let fear or pressure stop you on this moment. And I'm walking in the room, Alexa Fogel, who knew me and who knew that I'd get in my own way sometimes. And she was like, gave me a little wink and, you know, like, it's your shot, like whatever. And I just just opened up. And I didn't even have one of the blackout moments, but I just did the sides. It did the lines. And it kind of resonated, and they were like, yo, I walked out, and then I got a call,

you got to come back, and you come back and meet Bob Colesbury, and it burns, and then call back again. All right, and David Simon got to see you. Clark Johnson got to see you. I'm like, whatever. At that point, I'm like, whatever. Who else you want to see me? Because I'm in.

And then I got the call. Look, we love you. You're the guy. You're the guy from New York. Now we've got to go to California. Now we've got to learn. You know, there's one at all like this. Put the credit card down, bitch.

I didn't get it yet. It's the wrong phone call. And, you know, I waited, and that's when it got really, like, sickening in your brain. Yeah, stressed out. And then all of a sudden the call came, and it was like, yo, you got the part. And I remember then being in the house, like, exhausted, like happy and exhausted. And then, you know, just, like, so ready to go. And the HBO was different than the network where you had time.

Like, they're like, okay, you're shooting the pilot in, like, three months. And you're like, oh, okay, cool. I remember just going to Baltimore, you know, and just, I had time. Did you? You went to Baltimore ahead of time. Yeah, I went to Baltimore and just had time to just met up with a woman named Fran Boyd, who they had based the corner on. And, you know, if anybody was going to show me the life in the streets and what would be like Bubbles' world, she was the one.

And I just got to talk to a lot. A lot of people either recovering or dealing with it at the time. And they were all different. They were all unlike what I thought they would be, and they were all different. and I realized that I was looking for something that didn't exist as far as a character, trait or something like some nuance. Let me scratch my elbow every time I want to get high.

Like, you know, some dumb, not dumb shit, but something that just wasn't truthful. Right. Everybody was different. And then, you know, they had me go, you know, let's just got, you know, let's not worry about the addiction. Let's worry about the human. Let's worry about who bubbles is.

Like, what makes him want in life? What is he striving for? And Reginald cousins, aka Bubbles, he just wanted to have a purpose. He just wanted to be good. He just wanted to matter to his sister. You know, he lost his family, his son, and whatever. And the two movies that kind of stuck out to me that I just looked at for certain things was one was Panic and Needle Park.

I've never seen him. Al Pacino, who I used to be a fan of, Bronx. And Panic in Neal Park, the thing that he was doing, he was all. always looking on the ground. Like he was always in search of. And, you know, junkies or people in the diction, they wake up, go to sleep, thinking about how to get high. Always in search, always looking for an angle, looking for something. And then, you know, the second one that kind of surprised me that really stuck with me was Lady Sing the Blues. Oh, wow. Richard Pryor, he had a small part, but you felt when, when Piano Man got killed, him, Ladies Sing the Blues, everybody cried. And it was like, he only got like four scenes. But it was a regular dude. He's a regular dude. They just wanted to entertain. They just wanted to be happy and, yeah, he had a little problem.

And that kind of resonated to me where I never looked at Reginal Cousins as a bad, bubbles as a bad guy. Yeah. You know, just a guy who just happened to be addicted. Right. And then the last thing that I did that really put it over the top for me was we all have our own addictions to things that we do. Like I used to go in the house and turn on the TV automatic. Without thinking, turn on TV on, Coca-Cola, hang out, and whatever.

So for the three months, I stopped doing all that. And there's nothing more crazy than coming into your house and not turning on that TV for three months. Let me just say, I was like, God, maybe a commercial. I could watch a commercial. I can watch a goddamn commercial. The TV is looking at me like, yo, you ain't going to turn me on, though. You know the game's on right now. We ain't going to watch Subrano's this week.

And that just had me, like, pacing in my living room. I just want to turn on TV all. Not drinking Coca-Cola, not being with my lady, all the things just, enhanced the idea that we all addicted. So I couldn't look at somebody with that addiction as a bad person. Like how dare I?

And I think for a lot of people, I mean, I can't really speak for everybody. I know as a New Yorker, I think a lot of us, when we watched the wire or when they were watching the wire, we looked at bubbles as the same person that we ignore on our way to work, on our way to do.

They're nuisance. And I minds growing up on the train, like whatever. That's your fault. You fucked up while you're in my space. But now you got this character in your TV and your living room every Sunday and you got a chance to go, wow, he's not that bad. Maybe I'm the bad guy. Maybe I'm the person that needs to stop and judging and look at a person for their humanity. Yeah.

And I think people fell in love and felt like I want bubbles to make it. Yeah. For all the people I ignore and all the people I'm not going to ignore him. I want to root for him. And I think people fell in love with that. And I feel like he's forever in my heart. And he's a part of who I am. And he's changed me or playing him, portraying him,

changed the person that I've become as I get old and wiser. And I feel like, you know, when people come up to me and talk to me about bubbles, they seem like they have a sense of a little sense of compassion brought back into their lives. A little sense of hope that we don't all just have to act so cold toward the, towards one another. And for that, I'm so, so happy to have been able to be a part of that. Anything that can do, anything that can be in our business that can do more than entertain, but maybe enlighten somebody that your way of thinking might be a little cold,

man. I understand. It's a doggie dog world and you got to do what you got to do to get yours. But you don't really have to. I mean, we grew up understanding you got to step on people's back to get there. But maybe you don't. Maybe you just don't have to do. Maybe there is another way.

Yeah. And, you know, I think with the wire in general, showing so many different characters and within those characters, the different layers of who they are made us or can help us look at somebody and go, I can't judge you on face value. I got to get to know you first. You know, we might have some things in common. So that's pretty cool. He had such a frailty, you know, like this really human frailty to him.

Like you just, I remember just seeing. in him like you said you've never been a junkie but like even the simplest frailty of like this is such a putting this is making it so simplistic but for example saying yourself just told some big words like you did last time like going out to with your friends and saying I'm only going to have one beer and then you go with your friends and you have five beers you know what I mean and and none of that in those moments all those decisions feel simple to you know they're not grand but at the end of the night you're like fuck I got fucked up and I over slept or whatever

that his frailty felt just human, you know what I mean? And not so pathetic as, say, something like Chris Rock's character in New Deck City, you know what I mean? When there was like such a dramatic, like he was so abject and he was so low. You just wanted bubbles to win because he felt so much like everything that's terrible that was happening on the wire, everything terrible that was happening in the drug trade in Baltimore, that he, like you said, he was the person that was getting stepped on, right? He was the person at the bottom. Yeah, yeah.

And I don't know. I just, I, he, whenever I just, I just was rooting from him. I just remember just rooting from so intensely. Yeah, my daughter, my daughter just started watching it, you know. She's 17, it's hard age, hard age. Teenage girls, I don't wish they wanted anybody. Oh, man, but yeah. But she just started watching it.

I love looking at her reaction as she's watching it. And there was season four, you know, and I hate to just spoil it. When something really bad happened to Bob, she was like flipped out. Yeah. Like she flipped out. And I was even shocked. I was like, wow, look at you.

You had cold-blooded to me. Now you're flipping out. Now you're flipping out. And she, you know, when she was little, it kind of was strange to her the way people were coming up to me. Because we have, the wire has a different type of fan. Very devoted and intense.

They love. They either leave. I've never been involved in a show or in any project where there's no great in the in the admiration. Or I haven't seen it yet. Right, right, right. And no, it's like, oh, it shows wag. Right.

Oh, it's either I love it or I didn't see it. And then when they come up to me, there's a certain just warmth of, that was really, what you did was really good. Or that character was so, you know, wonderful that we were rooting for. And she would hear that all the time. It went from, hey, crackhead. Oh, that's my favorite crackhead right there. Oh, you know, to your boss, man, what you did with that show,

or they related to a family member that was going through it. She didn't know. She's like, my dad's an asshole. I don't know why these people are loving him. My dad's a loud, paining the butt, you know, overprotective and over-intrusive. But everybody came up to him and coming up to her, like, your father is so nice, so warm. He's a great man. What the fuck you're talking about?

What you're talking about? Oh, they're talking about bubbles, not you, Dad. They talk about, you know. It's wonderful scene, you know. Again, I have to give credit to, you know, of course, David Simon for the writing. Yeah. And It Burns for the writing. Ed Burns was the co-creator of the show who was a cop,

and Bubbles was his informant. Oh, wow, I didn't know it was that specific. Wow. 95% of that show is that specific. Everything is cool. Everything is cool. Let me just make sure everything's cool. Yeah, everything's cool.

Yeah, so, yeah, everything is real specific. These boys knew what they were doing. I never met, I have met a lot of intelligent people in this business, but I remember that when I met David and Ed Burns on set, I had this conversation with Ed Burns about about the war on drugs. And he has such a specific idea about the war on drugs. And this is a guy who was a cop for, you know, two decades, over two decades in Baltimore. And he was calling such bullshit.

He's like, this is a war on the poor. This is a war on people of color. It's a fucking industry. It's a waste of time. It's a waste of lives. And I think because he had such, he knew so much about what it really meant, what it really was. everybody on that show had humanity, even the cruelest people on that show.

I mean, even somebody like Stringer, you know what I mean? I can't think of the name of the character that came after Stringer that became like the guy that ran everything, Marlo that ran everything in the vacants and everything. That even Marlowe, everybody had some humanity to them. Yeah, because they were part of the environment. Right, right.

It's not there, excuse me, for thinking this way, it's not my fucking fault. Right. Right, I got to get my shit done. I got to handle my business. Yeah. Yeah. It's just what we, you know, it's just what they're programmed to buy into by the circumstances that they're living in.

Right. If I'm living in this fucking Hubble and you're telling me that I got to kill and do whatever I get, they live in that mansion that you keep showing me on TV and in the newspaper, meaning that I'm better and I'm it. If I get there, then I'm going to fucking get there. Right. And Marlowe and Stringer were not street thugs. They were fucking masterminds, both of them.

You know what I mean? They were sophisticated, thoughtful, elegant, brutal. But no less calculating. Why you look at your lips for you say sexy too? No, sex, but sexy. You're licking the lips while she's talking about it? Just all just like brutal and strong, virile, smart masterminds. You know, that's the one thing Bubbles didn't get it.

And I'm a little salty, but I didn't get the love interest. I saw a fucking Sam Jackson and Jungle Fever. Jungle Fever. Jungle Fever, Gator, he slept under a car. He had Gator. Jungle Fever, Gator, has Halliberry. He had motherfucker, Halliberry as his love interest. And I can't even get like a, I can't get like a little sidepiece.

All my side people were kids. One kid and Johnny. My man Johnny. I mean, they knew what they want to do. I mean, the wire Bible, so to speak, which is the outline of the whole series. It was like 80 pages and very detailed about what they wanted to say. And there was no, they were holding everybody accountable. You can't just fix one thing.

You can't fix, you know, just one piece in the fucking machine think it's going to work. It's not. You got to fix all of it. And all of it at the same goddamn time, which is, which we all find to be, it can be, done because we won't do it. We haven't trained our muscle to do it. And it burns the beast, man. He wants to shut it all down.

Yeah. He's like light a match to it. It's done. Turn out the lights. Fuck this noise. We went to Harvard one time. They flew some of the actors to Harvard because they were saying that they were using the wire as a, you know, a teaching class.

Teaching children in class. And I'm excited. I never been to Harvard. And when I went there, you know, I broke down in tears because I just saw, but this was like maybe 2006 or seven, I'm not sure. but I just saw a campus for black people. And I was like this. I didn't know this was even possible.

Like, I didn't know that, like, in my growing up, there was no ivory school thought process. So I just was like, I just wondered if I knew this was even an option. I just wondered. It made me sad. And I remember just us sitting there. And then, you know, you know, just hearing them talk about the wire and the character. I felt like I had a purpose.

And, you know, I guess things work out the way they're supposed to. And I'm excited. They said they had Ed Burns on the Skype. or they wanted him to talk and we all knew. All the actors, they were like, oh, y'all fucked up. Y'all don't know.

They were like, Hey, Burns are going to be on that big screen looking like Max Hendrum? Okay, you're all in trouble. They got Ed Burns, came up. Mr. Ed Burns, we were glad you could join us. Listen, we have a couple of actors here

from the wire. We're in Harvard, and we just want to know what do you feel about the show's success and how it's helped in America understand the government process and drugs. He was like, some bullshit, let it all up.

I don't even know why you got to in your school. Fuck your school. Your school's half the problem. Half the problem is your school. Why is it in your school? You don't need it. Why is it not in the community school?

Because they can't afford it. This is all some dumb shit. And me and the actors are looking like... I love him so much. We're in the acting like... He could give a fuck. We try to warn y'all. He was like, yo, shut it down.

We got to blow it all up. Yeah. And then David Simon came on and, you know, the professor was a little nervous now. Like, so David Simon, how do you feel? Do you feel like we got to blow it? it all up in order to get it going. And David Simon, you know, like this. I guess y'all were talking to Ed Burns.

Guess y'all were talking to him, huh? And, you know, David Simon feels the same way, but just like bubbles going up the stairs. He understood, he understands or he holds on to the idea. Maybe in the back of his head that we have a chance. Right.

There has to be some sort of hope or else, what's the point? What's the point? And with, you know, we all have different, you know, ideas of what maybe he was trying to say with the wire. we don't know everybody was always asking but at the end of the day I think he was just not trying to say anything he was just trying to show and have us think what do you want to do

like you got to get up the couch and do something little thing or a big thing but just keep trying keep trying to fix something right don't just sit there you can't in this world now with the social media too as well you can't really claim I didn't know

anymore right now going on the Bronx when police brutality or something's going on you kind of just thought it was happening there and you didn't think it was happening anywhere else and you're just like oh this is the way it is happening here and you had your head in the sand you turn on sports you turn on whatever you don't have to watch

your mom and dad was like oh the news is so depressing so you didn't watch it it was only coming on at one time this is a half hour yeah exactly if you don't watch you don't watch it but now you're bombarded with so many channels and so many means of hearing what the hell is going on all over

that you can't you know you kind of starting to feel overwhelmed but you can't claim ignorance anymore. And that's really fucking people's head up because you can't hide behind that. So now you're getting you're getting called them on your character. What are you going to do? And nobody likes to be called out on their character.

No. No. So it's a very unique time watching my daughter grow up and just me even growing up. I was talking to your assistant about it now. If I look at TV and all the channels that we have now and the plethora of black people on screen now, you know, my first instincts is, this is amazing. I remember when the joke was,

it's one black actor at a time. Now, on every channel, you know, we're all over the place. It's rare when you even see two black characters talking to each other, unless it's like, you know, in the olden days, unless you were watching, like, you know, the WB. That's right. You know what I mean?

You would never even see two black characters talking to each other at the same time. More than four black people on screen, you thought somebody changed the channel. BET, BET, B, B, T, the A, B, B, B, B, B, B, B, B, B, I'm going to my channel, you know, but now we're on a lot of channels and, you know, and successful shows. But then when I go look at my daughter who's looking at the internet, we're also getting shot at a crazy rate. Or we, or we're being, we always knew we were getting shot, but now, now we see it. Now we're seeing it, yeah. So, it's just, it's just weird.

I don't, you know, I don't know. It's because progress is never linear, right? It can never just be forward direction. No. I want to ask you about, but. Baltimore because then I want to move on from the wire because you've done so much since then. But when I was shadowing there, when I visited, what I remembered vividly was going to a location. I think this was season five.

And it was like down an alleyway and Omar was about to break in and rob some people. And the alley was just full of trash. And like the building was so broken down. And it looked terrible. And I went up to either like the first day or maybe like the prop master. And I was like, so how much of this did you guys dress? Like, what did you bring in? None of it.

And they were like, none of it. And then I think somebody, it might have been earnest, said, we actually sometimes have to take things away. So when you watch a show like The Wire and you think, you know, people out there, you listening, think, oh, God, they made this place look this terrible. Or they, there's a block of vacants, but they, there are people living in those houses. They just turned out the lights. I mean, I remember going to one neighborhood and one block.

And one house was occupied out of like 15 in a row. Yeah. That's not really a question. I guess I was just really struck by that. I saw, okay, when I booked a job, you know, I was going to Baltimore. You know, the only thing I knew about Baltimore, I told my boys that in the neighborhood, I booked his job, and they were like, oh, that's where we sell our drugs. We get more money in Baltimore.

You know, Baltimore to drive through. You go from D.C. to New York. You start by Baltimore and do a hit-off. Wow. And that's all they do. me about it and I remember watching the corner and I saw the corner which is another you know Ed Burns you know David Simon miniseries about Baltimore and about the you know the addicts um I thought it was make-believe I just couldn't imagine too extreme I was like this is silly

the blocks on blocks on blocks with junkies and what's that a horse carrying fruit what time period is this is stupid you know and then I went out there and when I went out there you know I don't claim again I don't claim to be well traveled I only been you know but the Bronx, Detroit Florida, I've been in a couple of hood areas and it never felt that depressed. I mean, most hood areas, it felt like

motherfuckers trying to get out. We're going to do something to get out. Something's going on around here. You felt a little energy. And I got to Baltimore 2000, there was no energy at all. It was like, now there's nowhere to go. Fuck it, last stop. We don't care. It is what it is.

And that that feeling scared me more than the actual decay. Because I've seen that. Maybe not to that extreme, but I think I have just not on TV. So I've seen that, but what I didn't see was the lack of hope that was in the eyes of the people that were living there at that time.

They were like, nobody cares about us. Are you on your way to New York? Are you going to D.C.? Why do you want a crab cake? You want crack and how much crack you want? That was the energy. you know so it was a very weird and it kind of helped all of us

did it? Yeah because you put you in the frame of mind Yeah because all of us All the actors on the joint Like in the first season we got We went to one area to shoot And we got shot at Because we're going to a neighborhood

Where people are making money You're saying shut it down We're shooting the show here They don't want to hear that No one give a fuck out the neighborhood Do you're doing all these We're bringing too much attention to the block So we were staying in hotels

They put us in we were staying in a hotel room And we would Every time we were going to sit And look around and see the people that were kind of telling the story about, we just felt a certain urgency to get it right. Just tell the story and not be about ego. Who's getting camera time?

Who's going to be the lead? Who's going to be, you know, the star? None of that mattered. All of a sudden, we were just in the room like, yo, let's tell a story right. That's really help give these people, or not help, let's really address the voice of these people and let them be seen.

And we would come on and say, like, if I wasn't shooting, but you were shooting, I come on set this to watch you shoot. And I can give you the wink or I can eat the thumbs down. Like, that was a bad choice. You're a whack. You can't, you know the game. You can't do that.

You can't be on set and tell somebody, like, I was a whack choice. You can't find. They don't like that. How dare you? Exactly. We all, like, you know, trying to make sure and holding each other accountable. And I think I always say that Baltimore was the best character on the show. It was the biggest stage.

It was like the grandest Broadway stage to play on because, while we're there, if you had any kind of doubt about a choice you were making or you felt a little uncomfortable in the scene, just look to your left, look to your right, and you'll feel it, you'll see it, you'll see some sort of person walking around that you can draw from. So, you know, it was, yeah, it was nothing like it, and I think the city is great. I think the people were the most honest people I've ever been around. Like, what you see is what you get, period. John Hopkins and right around the corner, that's Stash House. It was what it was

And again, it helped us all Really sink in and know That, you know, this is important You play this role and it's so Definitive and it's been because of the way we consume Television It's

It will have been so much more definitive than something that maybe An actor might have done You know 15, 20, 25 years ago Where it kind of, you know, people know it Maybe it's in living in reruns But people are going to watch the wire And they continue to watch the wire

Just discovering it now. That's right. But I heard you make a quick aside earlier we were saying, you know, I left that show. And then there was a period, whether it was right after or later where I didn't work, and people thought I was that junket, you know? And so I wondered, did you feel branded by that role once the wire was over? Yeah, I felt branded, but I could not, I felt branded, but it was hard to say in a negative way because all of it was like a backhanded,

for lack of a better word, because I don't have that wonderful vocabulary that you had. It felt like this backhanded compliment where they were like, you were so good. You were so good at it that maybe that's all you should do. Right, right. I believe that so much. I mean, you know Hollywood. Hollywood's like, yo, you play a junkieville. I got a junkie for you.

And you say, no, I want to be a cop. Come on, cut that out. You're so good at the Y. You're so good at the junkie. Right. If I want to pay money, I'm going to pay for it. I want your best. Right, right. And you'd be like, but I'm an actor. And at that time, I think David Simon and the team around the wire were

very vocal about expressing how they had some people that were off the street they put on. Right. So you couldn't really tell. And again, another wonderful compliment. When they used to come to me and say, you know, I always tell a story. You know, Mark Wahlberg, who was a great dude, real cool. We go to the, I see him at the boxing matches. He's dope.

The first time I saw him at an HBO party, he was like, really like, yo, you got a good job now. You know what I'm saying? Like, don't go back, man. Like, you're good. Don't go back on that shit. And I was like, what shit? That was a script. Like, what are you talking about?

I'm an actor. He's like, oh, for real? I thought they grabbed you off the street. I heard he grabbed him motherfuckers off the street. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm not one of them. You know, so I can't get mad at that. Because he were so believable. You were so believable.

You were so believable. That's like, oh, thank you so much. Right. I didn't know how long that was going to last. Right. And then, again, because of the certain parties that we know, the Emmy parties and all the stuff that we go to and we're drinking. Because, you know, HBO has the free liquor and shit.

We have a good time. Oh, yeah. Yeah, producers coming to me and tell me, like, yo, you know, I mean, had some of us thought you were a junkie for real? And the other ones were saying, like, but, you know, we don't want you playing any of the plot. Right. Some cats were telling me,

after the, when the wire really hit, they were telling me that I can't be on a show with another wire actor because that would make people in the order to think of the wire. And we don't want you, we want you thinking of our show, our new show. Right. Or they would tell me that people really, really, love bubs. And so when they see you on screen,

they rather believe that Bubbles is working, that Bubbles has cleaned themselves up and is still continuing to work and hooray for bubbles. They don't want to know that it's this actor. That's the actor. That's a talented actor who created this character.

You'd be like, ah, man, that's a regular story. I don't want a regular story. I want that Cinderella shit, you know, which again, I, you know, Sam Jackson was one of the guys that was kind of a mentor to me as far as I guess he was just there at the right time when I needed him to be. I was like in the middle of the fourth season.

I was burnt. I was like, you, I'm just, I'm just, this is not a good headspace for me. I'm tired of being, you know, in this headspace, and I just don't know what to do anymore. And I knew the fifth season might be coming because we never knew. And I was okay. I was like, you know, if there's no fifth season, I don't care. Like, I'm tired. And, you know, I go to Sam Jackson.

And he was like, what are you talking about? Like, you, and you kind of neutered a game and, you know, filming, film and television. and you got out the gate you got like an iconic character. Motherfucking know who you are and the character that you play and you're complaining? Oh man, shut the way. And I'm just like, I guess, okay, well give me Tarantino's number, motherfucker. I'll start complaining real quick.

You know, but yeah, I mean, so I don't, you know, it was a brand and I was frustrated at the idea that the actor in me was getting the compliments, but the actor in me was not given certain chances to show the actor in me that I just showed you I can do. And it was weird. You know, so I can, again, to answer the question, I can never look at it as, branding, branded me like a skull. Right.

I won't say that. Right. I will say that, you know, I appreciate people thinking that I did that really well, but would not be confused that I can't do other things just as well, if given that same opportunity to prepare and do it, you know. I am that kind of actor that I'm good and you know and I can be really good if I get the preparation but most of our businesses you know you book a job you go to the next day start working and he's just like you're like whoa yeah who am I what I'm you better have ideas you better you know

so you know I didn't know how to handle it at that point it's got you know so there was a time where you know it was yeah it was about maybe a couple years where I wasn't working I mean, I mean, I was, like, you know, a guest star here, guest star there. Right, right, right. But not in the way that you would have expected coming off of a show. Not in the way of coming off of one of the greatest shows ever, like one of the greatest shows ever. And I would look at, you know, my fellow co-stars and just wonder, okay, when is my, when will I get that shot? And it's always about the second.

Right. You know what I mean? Michael, he landed on Wall Walk Empire. Mm-hmm. So he had a chance to right away show a different. A completely different character. You know, with my man, Idris. He went from, to, like, I think, Daddy's little girl.

And then sometimes in April, show off another accent. Right. And he's six, too, big motherfuckling sexy, chubby dude. But he's also talented. He's also really, really good. And then Luth, I mean, so he had to show her. Me, there was a big, you know, drop off. So people just thought, oh, okay, maybe he's done.

Maybe, you know. Right. And I wasn't. So, you know, it got done. dark. It got dark as far as just frustration of I have so much more I want to do and that I know I can do but

they're telling me I was too good. I didn't understand what that meant that I was too good at something. Right. Right. You're too believe it. It was so good at it. I mean it is true and I have occasionally gotten that compliment of like oh I hated

you so much on that show. Someone said that to me once. I hated you your character so much on that show that when I saw you in real life I hated you in real life and I was like I know that that was a compliment no matter how fucked up it just came out. Fix that word in here.

Right, but you know what I mean? Like I get that it felt real to you. But you've heard two, two, the word two in a variety of kind of, like you were too good on that show to put in another show.

You are, you know, too black to play Latino or two Latino to play black. Like you've kind of gotten all of that stuff. I mean, I feel like for you, obviously there's this foundation of like this kind of, this kind of foundational bedrock of talent with you.

Yeah. And passion, but I also feel like for so many of us, and especially for somebody like you, you almost had to outlive the tale of, I don't mean the T-A-L-E, but the long tail of the wire. You had to outlive it. Perseverance. Yeah, you had to just be, just not,

just fucking keep running. Stay focused. Stay focused. Stay following me, like in. Sam Jackson was like, yo, you know, talent always rises to the top. You guys stay prepared. Or do you can fucking, you know, if you want to self-sableness,

touch yourself and sit in the anger, bitterness and go get fucked up. You won't be the first actor. Yeah. Then you will go off into the sunset and just be, oh, he's that guy. Right. I'll be having drinks with, you know,

other Dwayne Wayne. I mean, you know, different characters that never worked again or it hasn't worked as much as they should because they're fucking great. Right, right. And Jamie Fox was a dude that we met in the box and joined. He was like, you know, other actors,

you know, not of color at that back in the day, they would get, you know, even in a bad movie, they get three more movies. So they were learning on the job. Right. You do two movies at a bad. You're done. Yeah.

They're moving on to the next person. So, you know, you don't have time to really. Feel sorry for yourself. You better, you know, get it done. And, you know, I... Yeah, so I just stay prepared. And luckily, again, I've always been blessed to have really good friends. And the family life was so cool.

Like, wife, he was there. Yeah. Nothing better than looking in your daughter's eyes and knowing that. If this is what I'm doing to eat and provide for her, I can't wallow. Right, right. I got to win. Every actor, I think, goes through dry spells, but I do think because there are so many fewer roles for people of color. Yeah.

Our dry spells are just longer. They're just longer. There's just not that much out there for us. And then, you know, the stuff that was coming to me, I did make a choice. I didn't. It was, they don't, I guess it was hard. people really recognize or understand. I don't know it's hard.

But I didn't want to play junkie. You've done that. You did it very well. No need to ever do it again. After five years, when the first couple of, you know, projects I was getting with these indie films where they wanted me to be just drugged out.

And I was like, your dog, it wasn't fun. I love working. Working is fun. But that headspace is not fun. And I just did it. So I said no to a couple of joints and maybe that got in my way too. But it has its own power, though. Saying no has its own power.

Yes. So, you know. So, yeah. So anyway. I'm never going to be able to name all the things you've done, but right now you're on two projects. Right now I'm on two projects. You're here on this massive fucking television show empire.

I like what you said that. It's a massive fucking television. Yes. And when I read that you were joining it, I was super fucking excited for you because it's a show you deserve. Thank you. And so I just, I don't know. You know how you love people and you love their work?

and then they get something good and then you go, you know, because you can't wait to see what they're going to do, but also you just... You're happy to see them. You're happy to see them, you know, working on something.

Yeah, this person deserves something this big and that's good. And then you're on this show called the Hand of God, which I don't know, so I want to hear about it a little bit. Okay, so Hand of God, hand of God, you know, it was one of those things where

every pilot season, as you know, there's a certain script that goes around, you go, this is the hot joint. This is the joint I want to do. And the Hand of God had that script. Ben Watkins, I think he was formerly from Burn Notice, Young Black dude

Created this show I knew at that time Ron Perlman was attached Who's a beast? Yeah, a beast, period Somebody you want to work with Learned from Challenge

You know the whole thing And I couldn't get in the room What? Because the character The character was probably Ron Perlman's best friend Who plays a mayor Okay

They just didn't think you were right Now as a beer It was like one Can he be Ron Perilman's best friend Because they know me From Bubbles is soft Right

Right sweet Yeah And mayor, come on, I mean, we know mayors end up on crack, but then I don't start from crack. I don't know. So I couldn't really get in the room, and then I had to make some phone calls, and I do my hustle, got, you know, Mr. Watkins' number from so-and-so, and just was like, yo, listen, I know what you might be thinking, but give me a shot. Yeah. And he's like, you know, of course, I mean, I love that.

I'm like, yeah, because no more love. Yeah. Hollywood is known for love I love you I love you don't love me give me shot and he was like

cool you know cool he was cool and I you know I walked in there and you know

I did what I did what I do again there's moments where I won't allow you know and pressure or fear to

outweigh the talent and I you know I bought it and they still were a little nervous apprehensive you know

and audition three three more times and got the part and it's been It's been great. It's a dark, twisted little, I guess, I guess somebody put it best Californian noir. Okay.

You know, it reminds me of back in the day, like body heat. Yeah, oh, God. A million ways to die. Jeez, come on. Bodies, you know, against all odds. You know, there's movies where, you know, it's dark and twisted and got evil agenda, synanigans, evil synagans, but it still looks sexy. Yeah.

We shoot on 35. Yeah. Oh, wow. Still again. That's right. We bring it back. Shoot on 35. So it's real glossy.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's like, almost got that little Hype Williams field back in a day way. It looks so pretty that it might. Yeah. So, you know, I play Mayor Robert Bobo, Boston. And it's really about, you know,

what we do or decide to do for without being judged. Like, who are you to judge me unless you know me? You know what I'm doing for. And we always dictate what judgment is really going to affect us. Like if I do something that you don't like, I can give a fuck.

Right. Your mama call you, okay, let me explain. Let me explain my wife doing this, why, why. And my character,

especially is dealing with the duality of dealing with loyalty to my friends, especially Ron Perlman, loyalty to, you know, the city as a mayor,

but also my personal ego, I want to be, I want a legacy. Right. I want to put my mark on this motherfucking planet on this little city while I'm here. And when I auditioned for the role, I told him, I said, you know, I see this character as half Rudolph Giuliani. Rudolph Giuliani meets Ralph Lauren in a P-Ditty video. That's how I described him.

And they would say they laugh like, okay, I want to see that. I love it. I want to see what that looks like. That's some complex shit. So it's, yeah, so really, you know, Ron Perlman plays his judge and, you know, he made a promise to his son. his son tried to kill himself after watching his wife be raped.

Oh, God. And now, Ron, it's been seven months later, and now Ron Perman is hearing his son talking to him like, yo, I thought you promised me he was going to find a killer and Ron Perman starts to get signs

that lead him in this who done it or who was the reason or what was the reason behind his daughter-in-law being raped and his son trying to shoot himself. And in the midst of that, me and Mr. Perlman are trying to do some,

business deal to uplift the city. And it all is inconigent to this man not acting like a crazy man. Right, right, right, right. He's about to wreck everything with his madness. So am I a friend because I love you or am I a friend because you're fucking about money? Right. So it has all these inner complex and different layers of why we do things and who would say what is right and what is wrong unless you know the reasons on why we're doing it.

It's pretty cool. And Amazon is great. Amazon is like, you know, HBO when they first started. Right. brand new this whole streaming and you watch all Are you a fan of binge watching? I am actually I've gotten more that way lately

Like I here's the thing I'm not a fan of it I don't have any time So So I'll do a thing where I'll like just watch an hour Every morning when I work out So then that kind of so maybe it's not straight binge all weekend But I'll be like I'm on this show Like I just watch a lot don't you

Well an hour every day So binge watching as yeah More than like I set up in a house all Sunday And like you know watch 20 episodes I'm a marinating type of dude. I know when the show is really great, if I watch one the first week, and if I'm waiting for the next week,

if I'm waiting for the next week, that means I really love the show. But I know that this generation, they're like, I want to watch a show, when I want to watch it, how I want to watch it, and who are you to tell me I can't? And Amazon and Netflix is like,

okay, we got you. Right. We got you, and it's brand new, and they're putting out and taking chances that, you know, back in the day, only cable would do when it was network, HBO, showtime.

They have much less to lose, because they're not trying to hit this number or that number, whatever. They already got, they already got, they already got, they already got, they're eating money from the other things that they were doing. This is just a little whipped cream on top. So, you know, they're taking chances and telling stories that have a lot more nuance and edge and diversity and just, you know, they, they're stepping out of the side of the box of storytelling and trying different things, which is always fun to be a part of.

And it's been, you know, it's been, it's been an enjoyment. enjoyment, they always be part of something new. Yeah. And, you know, great cast. Tell me how different it is, whether I want to get to self-inflictive wounds. Tell me how different it is for you, experientially, although I think every set is the same

in a lot of ways. I was just thinking the other day, making TV, making films. Each set's color by who's there, but in a lot of ways every experience is the same. You've got a show, we've got to deliver your work. How different has it been working on Hand of God versus coming in onto this juggernaut that's empire, which is like essentially now in the Guinness Book of World Records for being the only show to build an audience like week over week for a season.

They broke records. I got the call. Luckily for me, they didn't happen at the same time. Okay. A lot of people thought it did. Like, I was done with the hand of God. Okay. And it was kind of in post for a while.

Yeah, it was in post, doing the thing. So I got a chance to breathe a little bit. But I was getting ready to work on an independent film and got a call saying, which is always great. And this is where you know, this is where you know that he's starting to grow. As far as being recognized for your talents, where they go, look, we want to offer you. you the role. That's the best word ever for actors. We want to offer you

role. Who I got to see? You ain't got to see nobody. We've got an offer for you. We got to kind of sit. So that was great. And then Danny Strong, the co-creator show called me. And he was saying things like that. He's like, look, I know you from the wire. You know, we love the show.

But, you know, Empire's breaking some records too. You know, Empire's doing this thing. I'm like, yeah, of course. I know it. I watch it. I get it. And again, you know, it's one of those shows where we haven't seen before. Yeah.

We never, we never had a, I guess a multicolored or just black dynasty, Dallas, Falcon Quest. Yeah,

had a lot. Falcon Quest, Knats Landing. Legit Scarface. I mean, whatever, you know, like that kind of, and I don't,

I pick Scarface not because he was a drug deal, but because of like this, or sopranos, like the idea of the kingpin and the, you know what I mean? The dynasty,

the empire, like you said, yeah. We didn't have it on Palm Town. And to, and then to make the backdrop hip hop, which is my, you know, the Bronx is where it started. I grew up and, you know, I didn't grow up, but I ran around in my 20s and the 90s, hip hop was banging. And for that to be

the backdrop, it just, it just speaks to how important we are in American culture, you know, and how we've signed our name as being a part of American culture. American culture, not black culture. That's what's happening right now. That's so exciting because Empire wouldn't be a hit if only black people were watching. Not at all. And Hollywood always says, oh, you know, like even when they were trying to get straight out of Compton made, no one wanted to fund it because like nobody's going to go see a movie about hip hop or, you know, and it's not going to sell overseas and blah, blah, and there was like the number one movie. Those people who said that, they cleaned out their law. They cleaned out their office. Because the studios said that didn't fucking make that movie.

They took it somewhere else. Yeah. So, I mean, it's just, it's an exciting time. Yes. You know, the landscape changed and we recognize, I think there's a certain confidence that we as black people have now that we didn't. didn't have 10 years ago. Yeah. We were always afraid to be laughed at,

always afraid to be, you know, looked at in a certain way where, are you making fun of us? Right. But now... Or made to feel like our story wasn't a universal story. That's right.

Like no one cared about our story. It's for other black people. Yeah. Now we know, and we're like this show. We love this. We love this show. We can have fun. Yeah.

We can have a good time. We can throw all stereotypes on the screen and be like this. Everybody doesn't have to be perfect up there. Yeah, we can go, yeah. And it's a tremendous show. And then again, it was one of things where, so I come in, And, you know, this is a show where, yes, the first season was a surprise.

Second season is not. So there's a little pressure. They're like this. Oh, shit. Yeah, we got to step it up. We made 26, we got to do 30. You know what I mean? And you're coming in to somebody else's playground, like, hey, what's up guys?

Can I join you all? And they're like, okay, look, we know what we're doing right now. Yeah. But they were like, hey, come on in. And I mean, Terrence Howard, Terragi. They're beautiful. And you just feel the energy of just that I've never felt before. I've never been part of a show that is a humongous hit while it's on.

air. God damn it. Not five years later. But it's phenomenal because you feel so much pressure but, you know, and I know for me, that's always worked to my advantage,

right? I've always had moments of my time where I go depression and fear won't stop me from doing it. So that I see now I'm surrounded by a bunch of people from in front to behind the camera that feel the same way. They love it. They love the pressure, they're feeding off it, and the excitement and the energy that they bring to the

set is like, we got this. You're coming over here? You come over here to have fun. You come over here to enjoy whatever we throw at you. And it's probably the closest to theater, that feeling that I've been surrounded by, where I feel like everybody got your back, everybody's with you, and we're just throwing the ball around. We're just throwing the ball around and having fun.

And it's great. And I hope people enjoy my character as much as I enjoy him. And I hope the show keeps breaking records, man, because what it does is open doors. I mean, I haven't seen power. Her power is dope. I've heard it's great. I haven't watched it either.

I heard it's incredible. I think it opens the doors for more shows. Yeah. We'll see. All right. Now, we talked about self-inflicted wounds before you started. Yes, I don't know what that is. I got to tell you a story about how I fuck up.

Do you have one? Do you have one? I don't know. The whole idea about self-inflicted wounds is like to show how people, you know, people who are not in our business can see someone like you and then think, oh, God, he's, you know, he's been on this incredible show and he's an incredible actor and he's perfect. And then you have these guys like that. I think, well, you know what. Luckily, I play bubbles, so you know I'm not perfect. You know, yeah, exactly.

You know, I have dark sides. Can we stop this? No. Yeah, we can stop it. All right. So you have to take a bathroom break and run in the bathroom and pee. and get worried that everybody don't call me and say,

why did you tell that story? But I don't know. So I guess my personality and my, you know, the center of the world, only child syndrome has gotten me in trouble in a lot of ways.

One time in college, I went to school in West Palm Beach, Florida. And I was a little arrogant, a little bit of I can do anything. And I remember, you know, going to the supermarket with a couple of my friends and I had the Yankee hat on

with a night gown, night shirt, and some sneakers because I didn't feel like getting dressed. I didn't feel like throwing on jeans. I didn't care. I'm doing what I want to do. I'm in New York for life, whatever. Florida. I walked into the supermarket with my fake ID

and bought a bunch of like two six packs of Calvin Coolers and bottles and James because I'm hard like that. That's how I get down. I just drink that bottles and James. Peach flavor. What? What you know about being in a day? I walk out, I walk out, and I got to go to the bathroom. As I walking out to the supermarket and my friends are like,

Dre, man, just wait until you get back to the dorms. This is right across the street. Jump on the car, because that's a close street in Florida. You've got to get in the car still. And I'm like, no, I put the six-packs down. I say, I'm going to pee right here. Peep right in the parking lot, because that's how I do. I move.

I lift my nightgown shirt up and just start pissing. Start pissing, and I'm singing. I'm thinking I was singing like, guy. It's black in a day with a piece of my love. Just being loud. And I didn't know that, you know, five cop cars can get there that fast. That was weird. That was weird how five cop cars can get there that fast,

and be like, fuck you doing. Slap the New York hat off my fucking head. Like, you ain't in New York boy? And, you know, back then when you said, boy, you knew that you're either going to, you know, fight the power or sit the fuck down. And I realized something about my character. I was more of a sit-the-fuck-down type of guy back then.

So I sat the fuck down and it was like, I had to pee. I had to pee. I had to pee. And the palm tree is too fucking fall. So I just peed right here. And they were like, oh, let's see some ID. And I gave him the ID.

And, of course, it was that fake ID. Now I got the fake ID I got the indecent Exposure and now I got the fucking fake Calvin Coolers So They asked me Did you buy the liquor in the store

And I could have been a snitch I could have been snitch And I said yeah But it's not the cashier's fault You know Yeah I gave him the ID And I told them

She wanted more ID And I kind of ran out Right I ran out the store So Oh so you stole it Yeah Yeah okay

Well I learned that person Not getting into trouble Okay, fine, I stole it. So they locked me up. Oh, no. And what I realized in my wound is that I'm not the kind of guy that can handle being locked up in a nice shirt with a pea stain. And a Mets hat.

And, yes, I'm locked up in holding. And, yo, I was, I had a bitch a moment. I was scared and I was also surrounded. Right. There was one point where I was surrounded, like, yo, my man. Why you wearing that dress? man at night. That's easy access home boy. You know?

And I did scream out for my mama. I did, I did, I did, I wept. And luckily, you know, I had a really good teacher who came out and bailed me out. Oh. But yeah, I had a moment where I guess my character was checked and I realized, okay,

I'm not as hard. I put hard guys drink bottles and james, but I'm not hard. Right. I'm kind of soft. Right. You were coming from that Bronx. You're trying to show him how it's done that before. That's how we get down and book it down. So I realized. day. Like Beretta said, you can't do the time, don't do the crime, and I learned that the hallway. So I apologize. But I didn't snitch on the cashier like I do in TV. I think that was perfect.

Andre, thank you so much. This is wonderful. What a joy. And I hope I get to see, work, hang out, drink with you many, many, many times because you're a special person. All of that. And I appreciate you having me on here. I must be doing good things. End up here? I'm doing good thing. I wish I could have had you sooner. It was a perfect time to have you. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Yay. That was Andre Royo. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We had a beer together. He's a lovely fellow. And yeah, and he christened. He literally broke the champagne bottle on the bow of the brand new bunker.

So it was really, really fun to have him here. I'm really enjoying this new season, and I hope you are too. Thanks for sticking with me. Thanks for coming back after the break. Thanks for not forgetting about Girl and Guy. I haven't forgotten about you. You know what to do.

Go follow me, friend me online, and all of the social media platforms that are available to you via the Intertubes, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Tumblr. There's more. I'm sure there's more. Who say, come and find me. Google Aisha Tyler, Google Girl and Guy.

Come say hi, come send me an email. As I said in the spring, never too early to send me a question for the annual magical, super awesome all-listen question show, which occurs every year in December. Yeah, let me know how you feel. Ask me a question.

check in let's connect I just sounded like your therapist you guys are the best you know what to do get out there plant your foot squarely in the ass of whatever it is that you're trying to do and kick it you guys are excellent you are my army

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