Girl on Guy with Aisha Tyler - girl on guy 199: daniel gillies

Episode Date: October 13, 2015

join daniel gillies of the originals and vampire diaries and aisha as they wade through trying to be cool, suffering for art, why films hold up, and why they break you down. plus they disagree thoroughly on robocop — both one and two. girl on guy wants you to get this in your face. you have twenty seconds to comply.

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Welcome to Girl on Guy, 199. Welcome to the show, you lovely, lovely people. I will not bend your ear with all of the things I'm doing. Oh, but I will say that you can find out more about what I'm doing, but follow me on Twitter and Facebook where I tweet regularly about all my 43 jobs and my generally slowly disintegrating, decaying mental health. come follow me online, come say hi. You guys have been writing letters, never to roll you to write letters for the awesome,

all-listen to question show, which always comes at the end of the year. So do that, go and do that, do those things. Come say hi. I love hearing from you, and it's been great hearing from you over the past couple of months, especially as my workload has gotten heavier, and my sanity has worn thin. You are a lovely group of people, and I am so, so grateful for all of your support. Let's just barrel through the business quickly on this one, that we can get to the good stuff.

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this out. Casper.com slash girl on guy. Use the code girl on guy for $50 off your brand new Casper mattress. Check that out. All right. This episode of Girl on Guy is with Daniel Gillies of the television show, the originals, and of awesomeness and of loveliness, and of charming, charmingness. He is from charming. I don't know. No, he's not from charming. There's no place called charming, but he's a charming motherfucker. He is a New Zealander, and you probably know him best as Elijah Mickelson on the series, The Vampire Diaries, and on the Originals. But he's also a film director and did a film called The Broken Kingdom, which you can check out online right now. And if you go to Girl I Got Net and click on his page, you can get links to check out his film.

He is thoughtful. He is interesting. He is complex. He is a fox. And he is doing interesting work both on screen and off. And I know you're going to enjoy this conversation because it's super fucking fun. It's very thoughtful. This conversation got super heady, super quick. And, you know, which is how we get down at Girl on Guy. So I know you're going to enjoy it. Please enjoy episode 199 of Girl on Guy with actor and director, Mr. Daniel Gillies coming at you straight out of the brand new Girl on Guy bunker and right into your face. I don't know. I've got this theory about drinking that I'm wondering. Okay, save it. You're saving it for the show. Oh, yes. Yeah. Daniel Gillies, welcome to my show. Hi, thank you. Lean into the microphone and then tell me your theory about drinking. Oh, I was just thinking, I'm just wondering how many people are cool and drunk at the same time. At the same time? I'm just, because I really, because when you look back, I mean, there are lovely drunks. There are definitely people who are appealing in a sense that they're kind of like, you know, warmer or looser.

Certainly some people like, you know, it's really. almost like a prerequisite to hanging out with them. You want them to have a couple of cocktails. You need them to have a couple of cocktails because they turn into a different person. I feel like weed almost makes people more, I feel like I meet that, um, that, uh, looser, more casual sort of alter ego when people smoke weed around. I don't personally smoke weed, but I kind of, I'm, I'm a real proponent for certain people in my life like smoking weed around me because I, because I like the weed version of them almost better than the, but, but the drinking one, um, I don't know, maybe he, girls are better than guy. I'm just thinking of my guy friends. I don't know many of them that I think are, because it's cute. So stuff is cute when you're, you know, 18 to 25. It's just not cute me more, you know, anyway. But yeah, no, I mean, it's interesting because I guess like, I, yes, thank you. I, what's wrong with you? I'm having my phone's on. Your phone's on. What a Perfect. That I remember so specifically, like, all, because I started kind of early, like, all the different iterations of, like, my drinking life and also my friends when they would drink with me and how much of an activity it was when I was a kid. Like, as an adult, you have to go to a bar to drink, or we're going to, like, go here and drink. I'm going to be able to you're a kid. Like, we would just take beer into the park.

And just that was the, that was the activity. It was like drink beer in the park. And I... There's something more honest about that. There's something very pure about it. And I don't think there's anything more. We're just going to be just going to. will get fucked up in the park. That was it. That was like, what are you going to do tonight? But I feel like there is many women who can, their belligerents can be different. It's expressed differently than men. Like, I think people have this idea that women get kind of tickly, girly, girly, adorable, drunken guys all get like they all want to fight. But I think I've met, I mean, I've been in bars where, like, a girl took off her shoe and hit somebody in the head. Like, I think the men and women have an equal propensity for shitty behavior.

Yeah, definitely. And I have another theory, lots of theories. Bring those theories on. fuck up, by the way. No, but I, there's a, like in Los Angeles, for example, the first thing I noticed was that there were just a few fights here. Like, when I, when I first got, I was like, I just never saw any fights. And here's my theory about that. I think there's enough girls.

I think there's enough girls. See, I grew up in this farming community called Hamilton. It was this landlocked little shit fuckhold, and I've got to be so careful. No, I don't. People, you know what, your opinion is your own? It was this little. It was, this is when you were already. back in New Zealand? It was back in New Zealand. It was this little community which was

the farming community? Yeah and it was dark and strange and lonely and very macho and kind of like and I felt incredibly lonely there. I always felt like there was a big mistake like kind of growing up there but but I um you get very adept at learning when a fight is going to happen and and and you don't have to be adept at learning when a fight's going to happen when it happens every eight minutes. Right right and that was the ratio and I couldn't believe sort of growing up in New Zealand where guys do get drunk and fight. One thing I was saying in the defense of New Zealand guys getting drunk and fighting is they don't pull out knives and guns. They fight and they knock the guy out or a guy submits and that's it.

That's what it was. When I came to the States, I thought, well, you know, everybody was so gorgeous and the guys wearing like $400 shirts. I don't blame them for not wanting to fight. But I never saw a fight. I've never, I've been out, like, obviously, you know, I've been in Los Angeles for 12 years. I've seen one fight that was caused by one of my New Zealand buddies and one of my, like, Canadian buddies, in a fight. Like, they really, they really asked for it in a bar, in Bar Mammont one night. And they got into some trouble.

And they, I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't even, it didn't even come to blows. It was sort of a burgeoning fight. But I feel like there's enough girls to go around in Los Angeles. So I feel like there's, there's no time. I feel like that is the preoccupation of fighting is a preoccupation of the mind that can't get laid. Yeah. I mean, that's an interesting theory, right? That there's all the energy that has nowhere to go.

And then separately, like, kind of intense frustration, right? And that frustration just with the world and yourself and why things are going your way. And, yeah, wanting to pound some satisfaction out of the world. But there's so many pretty girls in Los Angeles that it was like it's good. But, you know, it's fascinating about meeting, because I didn't. never seen girls as pretty as I saw in Los Angeles when I first landed. And I, and I, it was fascinating to me because I'd be like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm fucking Romeo. This is, this is, this is going, this is going, this is going swimmingly. I had like $9 in my pocket and in the world, you know,

and I'm looking at a girl and they just do this, I call it the LA shuffle. I wish I could sort of show the, the gesture here, but one on the microphone, obviously, but it's just like a woman, a woman slightly inclining herself to look over your shoulder at the guy who she's definitely more impressed with and definitely would prefer to be talking to in the moment that you're talking to them. And I would swear through and through to friends of mine that the girls had fallen in love with me when I was dating here. And they really hadn't.

No. And then they just would vanish. But you just touched on something else that I think is equally relevant here, which is that there are a lot of attractive people here and they're all on the make. All on the make. I remember we're going to like a party at like years ago at the, not at Marmaram, but at the Mondrian, which is like right on the sunset stir from building or been in LA. And it's very Hollywood there. And I just remember every single person at that party had this look like they would look you in the face and take a moment to see if you could, if you were somebody, like if you could do something for them.

Do you know what I mean? They would evaluate. Yeah, they would be evaluating. Like, do you look like money? Are you famous? And then they would do this kind of split second calculation. And then they would walk past you. And I literally have.

never step foot in that place again. It's just, I feel it's like, if not the seventh, like the second circle of hell. But do you feel, I mean, there's a weird, there's a weird, I don't want, I want to be careful when I say misconception because I'd be, I'd love to hear it from like a beautiful woman's perspective. When she comes in, oh, give me a break. So like, I want to hear, like, because this, this is the thing that I sort of defend about Los Angeles a little bit, like people say, look, it's a, it's such a superficial place. It's such, it's, like, there are people, there's a lot of, there's a lot of people, particularly Brits that I meet, who want, they want you to hate Los Angeles. And my, and my Kiwi buddies and my Australian friends are what, you know, they're like,

what's it like living there, mate? Yeah, what's it like? And I'm like, I love it. And I'm almost sort of vehemently in the other, opposed to anything that would sort of, you know, that would attack where I live. But it's weird. I feel like people are so quick to leap to adjectives like superficial fake. And yet what's interesting, if you look at it, just statistics.

and just, I mean, historically, like, you know, every beautiful starlet's been coming here since the 1920s. Like, I'm sorry, but I feel like in the genetic pool is probably some of the most natural beauties. Yes, there's silicon lips and tits and arseys and whatever. Everybody chasing that ideal. Yeah, exactly. There's not a, you don't see a lot of old people around here, which, which, and it's certainly not celebrated in the city, which I do think is a flaw, but I don't. But I do, there are some, it's definitely a lot of natural beauty that you see around as well. It's just, it's also an extraordinarily health-conscious city.

But it's a company town. You know, it's a company town. So you can say that it's superficial. But to me, there's nothing wrong with a place being a company town. And I think part of that is that people come here, and now this is going to be very touching. You know, people come here. More specific what you mean by a company town? Yeah, yeah.

Well, like, the old iteration of a company town is like, you know, Detroit was a steel town. And then it was a car town. And if you go to Silicon Valley, Everybody works in technology. This is a town built around, you know, the entertainment industry. And it's not that there are other things going on here. But culturally, that's the, like, the cultural hub of this place. I just wasn't familiar with that experience.

Oh, the word of Cumbie town, yeah. And it would be, I mean, I'm sure they're probably like, there have to be towns in New Zealand that are famous for, like, you know, cattle or, I don't know, what do they make? Livestock. Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, Australian, Aussie rules. All eight of us that live there are celebrating cattle over there.

But, um, but, but, um, but, that, and inherent in that, and I apologize for something so like pie in the sky, is that people come here, people come here are dream driven. So the other side of that is that it can be a very joyous place. I mean, it can be a place where people are here to, like, fulfill their dreams, and that can give it a very likeness. I like that energy. I fell in love with that, and maybe I was too easily seduced by that, but I love that magic. Like the city has a real beautiful magic during, at night especially, there is something, there is something that, what is it? it's like there's no ceiling on what you can achieve here,

or at least there's the feeling of that. And it's kind of like the matrix with, you know, Joey Pants or whatever he sees, looking at the two, like, the two pills. And he says, you know, I know this is bullshit. And if I eat this steak, it's kind of like, I don't mind eating the pill that tells me that the steak is great. Like, because whether it's an illusion or not,

it's an illusion that feels beautiful to me. So I like that feeling of magic. And it's never gone away for me. It is sort of enchanted. It has its priceless. problems like every city, but like, you know, I think I'm finally ready to call it home, like, after living here for so long. Yeah.

And I definitely think, like I said, that, you know, I just, everybody here is a gambler, and everybody here is not the sad gambler, like sitting by the IHop at 7 in the morning out of money trying to hitchhike home. Everybody in L.A. is the gambler in the sharpsuit, just walking into the casino, thinking tonight's the night that I make it big. Everybody has that mindset all the time. And that's an optimism. That's a real tangible, like, palpable optimism everybody has.

There's a version of that, which I think is one of the most vile myths that I think in the city. Like, now my mind's going to somewhere negative. But bring it home. Well, I just think that I fucking hate the mantra. And it becomes mantra for certain people that it's not what you know, it's who you know. Because I just don't believe that. I don't buy it. I like,

yes, I believe that there are, there are some free passes for people for, you know, um, we, we all know people that we think,

okay, well, that person is achieving a level of success and, and, and, and I don't think they're worthy of that or whatever, and that's just kind of part of living. And we don't live in a meritocracy.

Mm-hmm. But I don't think, I do think if you just sort of, it sounds sort of, defeatist almost, but if you just stick at it and you're kind of good, you're going to get everything. Yeah.

You want, I think it's, in L. but there's this weird ideology of like, well, if I meet this person, then they'll put me in that thing, which does sort of radiate off the flesh of some of these people who come to town,

like who are the gamblers in the shop suits later and I thinking, tonight's my night. Because the ones that I knew that was successful were the ones that were in the shop suit during the day, going today is my day, and getting up first thing in the morning before every other asshole, whether they were drinking last night or not, who did put in incrementally to Malcolm Gladwell

the 10,000 hours. You know, like it does, that sort of means something, and it's strange to me, this mythology of kind of like, well, I'll be sort of given it if I just meet the right people. Like, that's such an empty, that's one thing about the United States, I never grew accustomed to it.

We don't have that, we don't think like that in New Zealand. We're not, you can become very famous in my country because there's only like 12 of us. I said eight before, and I said, I said, so now you know I'm a fucking liar. But, you know, so like when you're on a show there, you know, it's easy to become sort of famous, and I did, you know, in my early 20s, I was in a show there.

And, and, but I was, you know, I'd be going to the show and filming during the day. And then at nights, I'd be, I'd be waiting tables because even though I thought I was a millionaire, because I was earning $30,000 for a 13 episode, like, like, for the whole run. You know, I was like, like, when you're 21, you're like, I'm just, I'm living large. I better not give up the way to get the tables anyway, you know, just yet. So I'd be waiting tables and. people will be like, I just saw you on TV. What do you do?

And I'd be like, this is my job. Yeah. So my point to that boring little anecdote was what's lovely about that is you, you, it teaches you, at least it taught me, because I didn't come to here until I was 26, 27, as that you've got to be good. Like, you've got to be good. That's all that matters. And being good is so much more important than being recognized.

And so when you're sort of armed with that, you're. you come into Los Angeles and you're already, I felt like I was already like, mentally prepared, I suppose, you know? And also, I mean, what comes along with that, and we'll talk about it when we talk about, like, some of the other work that you've done, you know, because you always leave, in addition to acting you've directed,

is that there's a satisfaction that comes from being good, right? There's a satisfaction that comes from doing good work that keeps you. Oh, I don't think anything I've ever done is good. Don't get you. Well, I'm doing work was it satisfying to? Like, I'm reaching. There's that brass ring and I'm fucking, I'm leaping at that thing. Right. No, I, no, yeah.

Well, I, let's make no mistake about it. I don't think I'm, you know, I'm doing anything special. But, but at least I'm taking my shots and I'm showing up. Right. I feel like that's one of the things I'm getting, now, I'm 39 years old and I feel like, oh, I'm saying to understand, just fucking show up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, continue. Just keep showing up. You know, it hurts.

Yeah, don't die. It just, don't die. Don't die. Don't die. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to persevere. There's... Am I the most depressing interview that you've ever?

Not even close. Not even close. And this is really interesting stuff. I mean, you're at a point in your life and I think I know I'm at this point. I'm always ruminating about this shit where you're thinking about like, you know, look, I mean, you know, none of us are... I was trying to know, you know, Kuberk or something like that. But you are thinking about like your body of working like what you want to do with your time. And you start to put yourself in a position, if not career-wise, mentally, we're like,

what am I going to do with my ideas? Am I going to try to execute? Or am I just going to kind of cruise? And when you were talking about the guy, the difference between the two gamblers, the gambler and the gambler and the sharp suit thinks, well, I know enough about cards, and I'm going to put in the time, and I'm going to sit at this table, and I'm going to be patient. I'm going to make good choices. I'm going to fold when it's time to fold.

I'm going to stick it out when it's time to stick it out. That's how I'm going to win. The other guy, the guy that thinks he's going to meet someone is going to change his life is the guy who's dropping coins into a slot machine thinking magic's going to drop out of the sky. That's a beautiful analogy. You know what I mean? But I mean, you're an amazing example. I don't, like, I sort of want, I sort of want to stalk you.

I sort of want to follow you because there's a part of me that's like, I don't, I don't understand how in a day, like, I've got about, I know about three people like you in my life, and I don't understand how you do what you do between stand-up comedy, like between Archer, the view hosting, whose line, you know, pairing different things, you constantly, this, like, I don't know how you, like, how you have a problem, though. Daniel, like, I am a workaholic. Yeah, I can tell. It's legitimately an issue.

I have that as well. But mine is far more scattered than you. Like, I'll work voraciously in a given direction until I exhaust that and then I'll go over here and then I'll come back to that. I mean, I never, I've got a lot of irons in the fire, but it's, it's not orchestrated. Yours just feel so like, this is a very outside perspective. And you could be just a shit show for all I know. So, so, but you.

Entirely possible. You seem like someone who's just like got it. together and I kind of envy that. You know, you're bringing up another interesting myth which I hate, which I want to kind of talk about a little bit, but is, which is we in the United States, another myth that I don't

enjoy very much is this adoration and emulation of youth and kind of and this idea that the youth is akin to the type of success that we like and but what's interesting I'm finding as I'm getting older and develop, I mean maybe out of necessity and desperation,

but I'm developing more and more heroes that I like and love who are guys who weren't doing things into their 50s and 60s, you know? And what's lovely about that is you start to see, like, you start to see these guys who, just the patience of them and the fortitude of these men and women who you adore. Like the other night, I went out, sorry, man, I'm random, by the way. This is your, this is your hour, Daniel. It's great.

It's lovely. I went out the other night with my wife, and we laughed our asses off at, oh, my God. we saw Eliza Schlesinger, is that I'm saying her name, Whitney Cummings, Whitney Cummings, Chelsea Peretti. And those three ladies, I was just watching these women. I remember thinking, man, there was a time when I just used to go to comedy shows, and it was just a guy fest.

And it was like all the headline, I mean, Hannibal Burris was one of the headliners, but it was like, you know, this was just last week. And it was just so interesting for me to watch. like these women and their commitment and they hadn't they hadn't um sacrifice that was very female humor and sacrificed any of their femininity in order to tell you these like and we just I just died laughing I left so inspired um this comedy store the other night I just like I don't know why I'm suddenly telling that that story I'm just I'm just amazed like how I'm watching the landscape change um pretty pendulously actually um in the last several years for

I'll give you another example. What's it called House of Cards? If that show had been made by NBC, say, great, I'm never going to work with NBC again after this comment. But if that show being made by NBC, we would have never met a guy like Michael Kelly, is it? The guy who plays Doug, like, he's unbelievable. But we would have never met that guy who is kind of one of the guys that you and I might be talking about as the statistic of the guy who never really got discovered. We know he's really talented.

But he's like, you know, this incredible. theater guy who was doing a whole lot of stuff in the East Coast and everybody who's in who's in who's an actor sort of knew who he was and yeah he's done a handful of things but in but like to watch that guy and this towering performance like like I'm loving that um there are all of these venues now especially in television where they don't give a fuck like how they're casting in this beautiful way which is just like it like um we're going to find the best person for this for this role right look at that um have you seen that Silicon Valley show yeah like it's extraordinary casting and like there's And it's just, and I mean, those guys have been doing that for years, though. I mean, HBO, like you know. But I mean, another thing where, like you said, if it was, you know, they're able to be subtle and to take their time and give everybody, like, a chance to kind of build something. And it's so different from the way that they would write and put together a network show where it's got to be like, you know, this kind of big broad, like punches and all the guys on

that show. I mean, with exception maybe of T. T.J. Miller are like nobody who knew who they were before that. Right. Which is great. I have a couple friends on it. And they're doing, you know, incredible. Even guys that have a little bit to do like Camille Nanjiani.

Like, I'm like, I remember just watching what seems like, look what Camille does with his face, right? He doesn't have a line right now. No. What he's about to do with his face? It's so good. And that's sort of the world that Mike Judge creates, man. Like, I don't know. Like, it's the same thing with when I watch that Fargo series.

Like, when these guys are EPs on things, for some reason, their power sort of like gets bestowed upon the people that carry out in direct episodes. You're like, how do they, how does that permeate into the episodes? It's like, it's so exciting. Anyway, I could talk about other people's shows a little bit. We're going to talk about your shows now. Yeah, we're going to talk about you. It's going to go great. So you, you grew up in New Zealand, but you weren't born in New Zealand.

No, I was born in Canada. Where? I was born in Winnipeg. They described it as the asshole of Canada, which is amazing because my father then took it upon him. He's in New Zealand. He was doing some postgraduate work as a doctor in Newark, in Winnipeg. And he then moved us to New Zealand to a place called Invicargle,

which McIgagel. which Mc Jagger was notorious for dubbing the asshole of New Zealand. So we went from the asshole of Canada to the asshole of New Zealand. So that was our traveling to assholes. Thematic. Anyway, and then, yeah, and then we moved north. Do you remember, do you remember being in Canada? Yeah, I do.

I remember from about, I suppose, three and a half on or something. It's typical. But just snow and the cold. old and my mother being incredibly frustrated at having to dress us in 78 layers because she came from the farming community in New Zealand where there

was just not cold like that, the snow like that and we go outside and be like and then we, she said, if I'm going to bundle you up like this, you cannot like beg to come back inside to me. We'd swear my brother and I went, no, we're going to play out there for hours, trust us, that's going to be the greatest. You know, those were back in the days when you told your kids to go play outside for

hours in the street. Yeah, exactly. Lose yourself. Yeah, anyway, so we'd go out for less than 30 seconds before we were just like banging on the door like those zombies in World War Z. Like, get the fuck. Get us the fuck back in here. Anyway, but anyway, yeah, so... Look, I'll be frank, even though we've had another New Zealander on the show, Melanie Nielinski. I know so little about New Zealand. Is it warm? It's beautiful. Like, in the north, it's kind of tropical, and in the south it gets a little

colder. It's close to Antarctica. Oh, okay. Yeah, and it's, is it as warm as like a tropical Island? No, it's sort of rainforesty. It's like baby Canada. It's got like all of these little terrain like it's got every sort of type of terrain. Like when I came to Canada, when I returned in my 20s, I was like, oh, you know, exploring British Columbia. I was like, this is New Zealand on steroids. Right. This is just like, you know, 100 times the size. And but. And it's pretty pristine New Zealand. Yeah, it's beautiful. Like I didn't really realize. I didn't realize that about New Zealand until I left, how clean it was. And I didn't realize how sporty people. people were until I left too.

Really? I was like, oh, we're pretty, like, we're an athletic people. I didn't really realize that until we left as well. They're funny as well, really, really self-deprecating, almost to a fault. Really? Yeah, it's a real thing. You have to, you, an Australian guys have it as well, but I think New Zealand guys have it even more. Were they, like, I remember moving stuff from set to set, like in New Zealand, and we would

grab like C stands and sandbags and that's just that's what you did like no I mean this I hate I hate when I hear other people tell stories like this because it sounds so self-congratiatory but it's not it's like it was what is what you did like but I remember trying to do that on a US set and people are gonna oh yeah they react they react like violently no no it seems like it seems like a lawsuit ready to happen like oh my god don't ship a nail like so can you imagine what it was like for me when people put like an umbrella over me to walk from like my trailer eight feet to you know, to somebody, just to keep sunshine out of my eyes. I was like, what do you, what are you doing? This is, um, I, I didn't, I didn't understand it and I didn't, I didn't enjoy it. I still don't enjoy it. Um, I don't know.

It's, it's very odd to get used to. And it's interesting even when you refuse, like, if you refuse that, people will be like, are you sure? I mean, why would you want to be treated like a big baby? Right. Yeah, like that's, everybody on. You know, kind of babies. Yeah. Like, like, even, even to the point of you, they're like, um, you know, they'll come and tell you, when you, when, when, sometimes, I'll ask for a warning. Like, just remind me so I'm, you know, I'm not, I'm not late. But then that thing where they're like hovering all the time

and they follow you to the bathroom and they stand outside the bathroom and they follow you back. Dude, they're standing outside the bathroom. It's creepy. Please don't stand outside the bathroom. There was a PA on one show and I was like, hey, lurker. You're just fucking lurking. Like, I know that's your job and you got to stop being such a creep. I know, they sort of lurking and they'll do that thing of looking the other way if they're not, or they're not, or they're preoccupied with a callus on their hand or whatever. But they're not, it's just never, like, you just feel like you're

but you're going to be raped. Right. I've never, I've don't, I don't remember going to a bathroom on a sit without, without at least five percent of the feeling I'm going to be raped. And you're like,

by the way, I got here on my own, right? And I also got up to this point alive on my own. I think I can manage the walk back to set. I know, I know. If I develop, if I turn into Charlie Sheen,

then maybe you follow me around because you don't know whether I'm going to come back after lunch or now. But we all, we all signed a contract. We're all going to show up. Well, there's also a level of, like,

there's a lack of forgiveness to, towards like actors are so babyed that um you know well back where I come from and and even in Canada I noticed a lot like when there was a was an issue with a line you're like another technician so like if you say hey what do you think about this like what does this mean and the director come in and you talk and you talk and you discuss it even if it's on fast turnaround right and you sort of get to the bottom of the problem I'll watch guys rigging a light like a 4k for like three hours like you know what way you know it's not quite right ah we're got to get the smoke in here we're going to do this we go to that, but if an actor says,

I don't quite get this thing, people are rolling their eyes and, oh, fuck, looking at their watches, going, what is happening to our day? You're destroying our day, and you're like, well, I just, you know, like, and so there's this kind of terrible fear that if an actor asks something,

that it's going to, that it's going to cost the day. And that they're being, you know, a Pollyanna or a dilatine, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that's a real fear, too, like when you're honest, because you, you are aware that you're privileged and then, but it is,

Because it's like community work, that's not me. There's definitely not urinating on the table. I'm not urinating during that. It's pouring himself some water. Although Aisha sort of did recommend it, which I thought was weird. Save it for the end. That's the finale. This is not the golden shower edition.

Don't go hard. Don't go hard early in the show. You'll save something for the end. The third act is so critical these days. It's, oh God. Anyway. So let's talk about it. So you move to this tiny town in New Zealand.

and are you pissed about it or are you happy? You know, I just felt like there was a big mistake. I just like my whole childhood, you know, I just, I thought something was wrong. You know, I thought, this is not my, this is not my home, you know. But, you know, I wasn't an unfortunate kid. My father was a pediatrician. You know, we went, we got sent to this private school, which at a certain point, my brother and I, asked our parents to, we didn't want to go to private school anymore, which is really cool because

and my parents were like, leapt up in the air and applauded because they were like, oh, great, we don't have to spend that. I remember my school fees at high school for my first year, we're 75 New Zealand dollars a year, which about 25, 30 US at the time. But no, we ended up going to this private school where for some reason they had an incredible theatre program there. And so from the age of six or seven, I was in like two or three plays and operas and things a year. Like I was doing musical theatre. By the time I got to high school, I was that kid you beat the shit out. Where are you?

Well, just because I'd done so much of, I was, I studiously avoided portraying that kid. Like, I became very skilled at not showing that I was that kid. But I was that little Nancy. And of course it was an all-boy school, so I'd played females.

Yeah, yeah. Many, many times, which I didn't disclose to my high school counterpart. Oh, yeah. I went there just recognized and just discover you up there. Yeah. Yes.

Anyway. Transformed. So you started acting at a very young age. Yeah. But I wonder how did this idea that living in, how does it say the name of the town again?

Hamilton. What was the one before that? Involtaic. Invoc. Invocle. Invocago. Invicago. Living in Hamilton

or living in New Zealand was this mistake. How did that manifest itself when you were a kid Were you pissed all the time? Yeah, I was just a naughty kid. Yeah. I was just constantly in trouble and being arrested and getting in lots of trouble, especially when I hit high school.

I just wasn't, yeah, I was just, I don't know what, but that wasn't the only reason. But I always hate like kind of the boo-hoo of this. It's like I feel like an incredibly privileged person, so I don't think I had a bad life. I just, in a sense, society that's as misogynistic as, as I felt it was and as, and as kind of like male and everything was about rugby and sport and being a tough guy. Like those guys were weaklings in my

mind. Like they weren't, they were the opposite of tough guys, you know, because they weren't, they weren't honest, you know. And when I would look to, you know, some of my heroes, which were like people on television or actors that I like to watch or whatever, be like, oh, that, that's, that's honest and that, you know, that's an artist expressing themselves. And that, that, that's me is courageous. That's the opposite of, um, that's the opposite of where I live. But, weirdly enough, when I went back to New Zealand, uh, a couple of years ago, I've been back twice in 10 years. Um, and I'm just sad because my parents live there, you know, um, we try and meet here, but, um, when I go back, I still have those feelings. It's weird. Like, I still

have, I'm like, ah, because it's hard to shake. I, I think I'm going to love that country as I get older, you know, I think, you know, but, but when you, when you feel like you're, um, not in the right place for a while. Anyway. No, it's interesting to me because you know, it's very hard, I think, when you're a kid and you feel like there's something in your life

that you want to change, you almost never have the power to change it. And so that can manifest itself in a lot of different ways, you know what I mean? Like, you can kind of want to injure other people. You want to injure yourself, and I'm not talking about anything and the extreme is like trying to kill yourself, but you can just live an injurious life,

you know, and it could be like a destructive life. Either, you know, um, well, you spend a lot of time alone as from, from what I, yeah,

yeah, I did. Yeah, and I, I mean, I was just a weirdo. I mean, I was like a different kind of like,

you were a theater kid. I mean, I was just like a weird bookish. Were you a popular kid? No. Oh, no, no, no, no.

I feel like I made, I mean, I always had like a friend or two. Um, I wasn't like a total social isolate, but, But, you know, I mean, and I've told the story a million times on the show. Like, I would spend, like, on a weekend, I would, like, go to the library and spend a whole day in the library.

Or even more than that, I'd have to be, like, preteen was, like, go to the movies and spend alone. And then, like, my mom dropped me or I take the bus. And then just spend the whole day in the movie theater. And just, like, the first matinee was, like, at 11, right? So you'd buy that ticket. And then you'd watch that movie, and you'd play video games. What's the first movie in your head when you think about those movies and, like, those times you spend alone? Oh, really just not good memories.

The two movies that I remember seeing most when I was a little kid, and neither of these are going to recommend me in any way to people listening. But I saw, well, War Games was a great movie. I saw, I must have seen War Games like 20 times in the theater. I mean, I loved that movie. I was such a nerd, and, like, it was such a nerds-type film, and I was, like, so into computers. And then I also saw Blue Lagoon, like, a really unacceptable number of times.

I remember seeing Blue Lagoon. It was really titillating. Like, it was kind of... To go back just to wait for, like, the good parts. Yeah, it was porn for me. I remember Blue Lille. But it was a little... It doesn't hold up.

It really doesn't hold up as a film at all, yeah. But there was something about both of those movies which I see now, which was this like young people on their own, like kids on their own. You know what I mean? That was like very appealing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know.

And then when I got to be like, I was really in the action movie, so like I just remember like seeing The Terminator like so many times. Oh my God. I am friends with Dan. Harmon and he and I both share a deep love of the movie Robocop. Yeah. And, um... Which, God bless you because it's not a good film.

But it's okay. Dude, it's a great film. You're wrong. You're wrong. I hated it in the theaters when it came out. You're wrong. Like, Dan Harmon and I will argue this to the day. Did you watch the remake?

It's, oh, no, the remake's horrific. They're all, they're both horrific. They're all, but I support your... But, but Paul Verhoven's, Paul Verhoven's satire. Like, I, okay, first of all, I visited, I revisited the film on Dan's recommendation after having, and he said to me, how many times did you see it when you're a kid? And I said, I saw it, I think, three times when I was a kid. And he goes, you remember every line. And I said, no, I don't. And he goes, no, he goes, trust me, you remember every line. And I went back to the movie and I remembered

every line. And there's something to say, I just, whatever you think of the film, it's resonant in a way. And it's, and the satire of kind of, of this disposable society, like that where everybody's expandable. He seems to capture this campiness as well as sort of, like there's something about when Peter Weller playing McMurphy, playing Murphy rather not Mc Murphy, that's one for the Cooker's Nest, you know, returns to his own home and he sees these sort of visions of like, of the life he lived and before he became sort of machine, which is in its own self, a beautiful allegorical little specimen, but like he's, I always cry. I cry, I cry, I weep when he says, well, it's, it's really sweet. Like when you see this, this man

who's, you know, his wife is, hey, I've got something to tell you, I love you, you know, and his kids running around and he can't return to that life. It's really, I think it's so pretty. I mean, you know, I don't know anybody else who could, who achieve that level of sort of, like, just campy sort of flamboyance, but with a strangely articulate satirical message, in my opinion, but that's... I mean, I should watch again as an adult. I remember, I was, I loved action movies so deeply, like I was so passionate about them. I mean, even, now, but like in a way now where I can talk about them intellectually, I can parse things out,

and I can talk about kind of like, you know, narrative layers. But back then, I just loved action movies so much. I remember watching Predator and having my mind blown. I was thinking, that movie does hold up. No, it's a, well, don't say it like Robocop does it. Fuck you, fuck you. Robocop holds up. Anyway, but yes, yes, but yes, the Predator is a beautiful, it's like a Western. Yeah. The only shitty parts of The Predator are some of Arnold's sort of dumb one-liner. Some of the actors have little off-beats that don't quite land. Yeah, they're slightly incongruous and you can feel the network notiness of them. Right. Whereas, you know, which was just for sales, but the beautiful silence of it and the kind of the, the western aspect of it, it's like

jaws a little bit. It is so beautiful. So lean and really elegant. It's so much silence in that movie, which is really disciplined. It's hard to do. Dude, are you kidding me? People always want to fill up the silence. They want to fill it up. I mean, and that's, that's a thing. It's like, I dream of like that kind of America where like I would have loved to have lived in that time when people were queuing around the block to see the conversation to see Last Tango in Paris to see the godfather to see you know like to see these movies that were about like the sort of like the poetry or the moments between moments and and I think like god I know I go all over the map so I apologize listeners but listen there's an apologization no apology

You know, I was listening to a guy yesterday talked to me about, like, working at, he worked at Disney. And he remembers the day when one of the heads of Disney came in and said, look, I'm sorry guys. And he gathered everybody around and said, listen, you know, Disney this year, we're only going to do, we're only going to do a total of, like, us later is only 30 films. And everyone went 30, only 30 films. And then he remembers, like, four years after that was like 15. And then three years after that was eight and then four. Wow. But, like, what, what, what, it's hard to explain to younger actors here is that it didn't all just used to be, like, the three superhero movies.

Right. That, you know, like, Disney's doing two movies right now. And they're both, like, Star Wars movies. You know, that's what they're doing. They're like these, they're like big, they're like a whale at a, and to go back to the year, gambling analogy, they're like a whale. They're like, they're gambling big and then it's trusted. And, but it's like, it's amazing to me. Like, what an accomplishing. that a birdman or a fucking whiplash Or like get seen like even got made like how did that get made like how do we how did that even how is it arriving to us and and like there's still a I mean I think television sort of has taken the place of of independent

There's more independent film and television I think now than there is an independent film almost But like the fact that people used to be able to go to movie theaters and disappear into just landscapes Which were emotional rather than just technological like They're amusement rides now, and they're fun. Like, I haven't seen Mad Max, but I can't wait. Oh, you're going to love it. I've seen it twice. And, you know, but I know that it's going to be splendid.

But what's great about Mad Max? Here we go. What's great about Mad Max is that it holds up. That's not what I was going to say. What's great about Mad Max is that what he did with that movie, you know, because it's still George Miller, so it's still the same. You know, people want to say it's a remake, it's reboot,

but it's the same guy. It's another part of, you know, his whole kind of like linear interrelated world, this world that he created, is that you don't realize this until after, but everything in that movie is practical. So it feels so much more urgent than a movie like a super... And I love my superhero movies,

but where you know that 90% of what's happening on the screen was put in after the actress walked off set, that just Mad Max is so visceral. And the reason it's so visceral is because everything that's happening really happened when they filmed it. And that's inevitable. It's like people who want to watch, you know, films shot on film versus digital or people who want to hear albums played on vinyl versus, you know, on their computer. And I love technology.

And I, whenever I make a film, I shoot it digitally because that's all I can fucking afford. Of course. But I remember walking out. I was like, why do I feel this way? Oh, I feel this way. Because like, all that stuff, all those things actually blew up on the day. I know. I still won't give up the ghost of the fact that I think the world really lost something in critical.

incredibly potent when Jim Hansen died. I feel like when he was lost, like, I mean, he was only going sort of from strength to strength with the things that he was building and creating. I'm not just talking like puppets. I'm talking about, like, I think a very, I mean, imagine him, because it's been a while now, 20 something, how long? At least 20 years.

20 years. But I mean, imagine, like, like, because he was the sort of the Steve Jobs of that, of that faction, and it sort of evaporated. Like, yes, it was sort of the cusp of a new era, of a new technological era, or a burgeoning era. But I feel like somebody championing, like, because you feel the tangible in a screen, you still, like, you can still, like, I know I'm going to love that Jurassic Park thing, but I'm not going to really believe that the dinosaurs are there. I don't, I feel like I'm watching a gorgeous computer game. And those two things are becoming more and more interwoven, and with good reasons. because community games are making so much.

When they're done beautifully. Exactly. This game, the last of us that came out this year was... Oh, unbelievable. Like, that game's unbelievable. I don't even play it, but I watch this. Too fucking emotional.

I mean, I haven't even finished it. I just was like, I'm too upset right now. I'm trying to take a break. It's so. It's got to be. It's got to help me. We're going to talk about more about you, but the one thing I was going to say on what you just said was...

I'd love to talk about everything but me. No, this is your... It's your hour. Did you see any episodes of the show, The Strange? It was on FX this summer. It would be back this summer. I think it's with Corey Stoles on it.

And it's not Benicio del Toro, Guillermo del Toro, the other del Toro, who did like Pan's Labyrinth and stuff. He's unreal. And he's great. And the show is so interesting. And, but then he decided to make the villain in the movie practical. And it's like some iteration of like an old school kind of, a vampire and someone you know

a vampire has been a lot and this would be great it's perfect to tell to your day job um uh this vampire has been alive for very long time and now he's infesting kind of of new york with um with the virus that's turning everybody into vampires right but because gierre was so practical me he did you know pan's life with was all puppets and you know prosthetics it was the first time in a long time where this practical monster took you so far out it looks so fucking bad oh it looked like it looked like it looked like

dark crystal. I mean, it was just like, you know, you just, it was so, and I remember thinking like, this is so well executed up until this point. Yeah. Whereas, typically, because you made me think of it when you mentioned Jim Henson, that for the first time, I was like, that's a puppet, and they would have

done better to go CG in this particular case. Or to do the thing you occasionally do, which is just leave the unseen, darkness unseen. Yeah, lighted a little bit. That's so interesting that you said that. You would, I went, but before you leave, I'll show you some because I loved the show and then every time the monster would come on, I was like, oh, tall guy in a suit.

Yeah, there's nothing worse than meeting a villain that's like, oh, God. Laffable. Like, yeah, it's, I remember watching Sexy Beast, which I think is still the best hifest movie I've ever seen in my life. And Ben Kingsley, have you ever seen a sexy beast? Yeah, but such a long time ago. Yeah, it's really great. But, like, Ray Winstone is basically a guy who's being roped back into a job for this

he's being roped back in by Ben Kingsley, who plays this ferocious, like little venomous, draconian little monster who's come back to recruit him. And he's saying, no, I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. And this guy ends up getting really violent, really scary. And he keeps talking about that he's got this boss beyond him that's like even even scarier

than him. Like he sees that, you know, and I'm like, all right, who's going to be fucking scarier than Ben Kingsley? Who's going to be scary than Ben Kingsley? Like, you're watching the movie. And I was like, you had me up into this point. Because if there's some super boss, and this doesn't involve a puppet, I almost wish it was a puppet. I was really scared when Ian fucking McShane turns up.

And Ian McShane turns up and just so this little smile on his face and sits opposite Ray Winstone in this little cafe to do the recruit. And in two minutes he does what Ben Kingsley couldn't do for the first 40 minutes of the film. And it's so terrifying. It's just like, it's just nothing at all. But anyway, why did I bring that up? I was just thinking about like bosses bleeding to bosses or... Or just, no, the devil unseen, right?

Yeah, the devil unseen. You know, the first nightmare in Elm Street, I thought, was really skilled, and that they kept a lot of Wes Grave and kept a lot of darkness on, Freddie, and you were kind of like, what is he? Your imagination's always worse than reality. It's so much worse, you know? I mean, like, people were up and arms about that Game of Thrones episode the other night where... Don't say anything.

Al-a-la-la. A-la. Moving on. Totally behind. I've read all the books, but I'm totally behind. I don't want to know. Okay, good. We're moving on.

We're talking about you. Okay. So, um, you, so, um, you're acting all through high school. And, um, I just want to hear about how you made the move back from New Zealand. Like, what, what prompted it and, and kind of how did you see your life at that point when you moved? I'd finished three years on this television show in New Zealand. So you got cast on a show in New Zealand?

Yeah, I got cast on a show in New Zealand. And you were still waiting tables. What kind of show was it? It was a law show, and I played, like, the sidekick of the main guy. It was called Street Legal. I don't know. I love it. It was like 21 Jump Street.

We were young, adorable lawyers. Yeah. I sort of looked like a girl, I suppose, and riding around on motorcycles. Oh, I love it. But it was so, it's not good stuff. My hair is, a little less said about anything that I was wearing fashion-wise. But, like, I ended up going to Australia after, I did a couple of, little American things that came to town.

I booked a few little jobs like here and there on American television shows that were filming there or whatever. I went to Australia and couldn't get a meeting with an agent and Australians are a little bit like Americans are towards Canadians, I think. I don't know what it was. Well, maybe I shouldn't say that. Dismissive a little bit? Americans employ lots of

Canadians. But America as a culture tends to be relatively dismissive of Canada. Yeah. And I think if you hear like some big stars Canadian where people are like, oh, I didn't know it's Canadian. No, no not. Yeah. Canadians sneak over and they pass. That's true But they're dominating, man

You know And And seemingly not admitting that they're Canadian Or it just sort of gets jettison They pass, yeah They just start acting American Yeah Went to Australia

Couldn't get a meeting with an agent Met a, went out with a gay couple Friends of mine That said to me One of them was Canadian Said, you know Oh man, if only you had your Canadian passport You know, you should go back

You'd go to Canada And I said, I have Canadian passport And he said, what are you doing here? And so And you're 20 of this time? I was 23, 24, I think. And I had like 1500 bucks left or something like that. And I, no, that's not true.

I was about to do, I can't remember. But I ended up booking a ticket to Canada. Just on bravery. Yeah, it was the last of my money, actually. It was the last of my money. I spent, I had, the ticket was 1,200 and I had $1,400. and I had $1,400 left, I think, or $1,500

bucks left. And so I bought a one-way ticket and I just stayed in hostels until I... You didn't know anyone? No, I didn't know anyone. I just, I went to Canada and I just... Toronto?

No, I went to Vancouver. Back then, Vancouver was the center. Now it's Toronto. And, uh, stayed in hostels and, um, waited tables and God, I feel so boring. No, it's... No, I mean, I think there's a...

Look, I think that there is this interesting, interesting bravery that also feels a little bit like recklessness. Yeah, it's reckless. I mean, because I ran out of money and of course, you know, I like very, very

quickly and ended up sleeping on the floors of apartments and things like that. But it makes you good. I think all that stuff makes you good. Like, I always feel like when I'm working with actors and I'm doing a scene with them, there's this unspoken, this sounds so pretentious. Let's do it.

I've got to stop, like, you know, giving these disclaimers before me. Just go for it. I feel like you can see in the eyes of another actor when they've been through some stuff. You can just can and you can feel it. And if they're not afraid of it and they use it,

they're really, they're often good. So that stuff that climb, I don't really believe that people who were given everything are ever really the movers and shakers and are. I feel like the ones who are the fighters. It doesn't mean you can't be famous young. I'm just saying that had I been given everything young, I definitely wouldn't have been any good.

Anyway, yes, survive, whatever. I ended up booking a bunch of stuff in Canada. I've knocked on doors and met with agents after I made some money and eventually got represented and I booked a bunch of things and I made enough money to... I remember thinking I was going to go down to pilot season and then as I was packing my car to go down,

It wasn't my car, it was my friend's car. I was hitching a ride, but then I remember he said to me, what's wrong? You look upset and I said, I said, we're not coming back. And I've never been back. Really? I've never been back to Vancouver, which is so weird. Wow. Yeah. You were driving down to L.A.?

Your buddy and actor as well. Yeah, I got a lift a bunch of shit up there. It sounds like a decade. I wonder what it was the first. It was really just a bed and some books. And did you feel melancholy in that moment? I felt, no, this is my life is changing. I felt safe and full of enchantment.

And I had, this sounds so fluffy and pathetic. But anyway, so no, that was, and then came to the States. Now, did the scene here, you know, considering you were coming up from pilots, is in the scene, that's not really the best language, but you know what I mean? Did it seem, did it make sense to it seem inscrutable? Because I always feel like the things we kind of, the terms we casually toss around, around as actors, you know, pilot season and upruns and pilots and blah, blah, blah, and testing, you know, when you first come here, feel so bewildering and overwhelming.

Yeah, I mean, I'd sort of, well, Canada had sort of trained me in another way, and that there was quite a bit of work up there then. So, like, even though it was 2001, so it was like, but I ended up just getting, and I was sort of inaugurated to the American system, you know, of auditioning and whatnot. And so when I came to here, like, I couldn't believe that I was going in for the leads of things. Like in New Zealand, we were hyenas. Like, we took the filthy scraps. Like, he was like, can I have that fucking dirty drumstick?

I'll take it. Like, but you couldn't ever be the lead. You couldn't ever be, you were just, you were fulfilling a quota for an American conglomerant anyway. But we, I just, I loved it. I got here. And I came with a buddy. is a very good-looking guy and the first thing I noticed

about the city was that the girls was so distractingly beautiful and I'd never been around that many pretty girls, you know, but my immediate knee-jerk reaction to that was no, no, no, fuck it. Like you have to work. Right. You have to work. Like you can celebrate once in but I just immediately like

it was like, you know, what are those shields that come down on a helmet? Oh yeah, like a sun visor, yeah. And I was like, that's it. And I just was, I was like, I'm not doing it. And my buddy got very, he got a lot of action, but he, you know, and he said he get distracted. He got distracted, but he came back and didn't get distracted. He came back and later on. But I ended up booking a pilot and being able to stay and then I booked little jobs.

And anyway. You've done quite a bit, but I think obviously people know you best for this role that started on one series and poured it over to a spinoff. when you play Elijah on right that's Elijah sometimes I'm worried I don't remember things properly don't worry about it okay good I just said Schlesinger before I'm not sure what I said

I feel like I've insulted this community one and one she's doing fine so you that you know this character Elijah got talk about the demon unseen got introduced on vampire diaries and then spun to the originals and was that just a traditional thing

where you went in and you read for it and yeah I mean I was broke because I'd done this other I need the money. I've done a movie. Oh God, this is so awful. It's funny, for those of you who don't know,

Aisha has a part of the podcast called Self-Inflicted Wounds. I feel like my whole story to you is like self-inflicted wounds. I'm like, I feel like this whole thing is like a series of... Look, life is a massive self-inflicted wound. Just a series of humiliation.

Yeah, well, I'd I went and made my own movie in 2008, in Broken Kingdom. Kingdom. Yeah. So because I'd done that, I'd put myself in massive, massive financial debt. So before we talk about Vampire Diaries,

let's talk about that process. I didn't mean to jump back. No, but it's good because for some reason I thought it'd happen in after. No, it's the reason I took to Vampire Diaries. The reason I took everything. I just, like, I remember coming out of that process in 2010,

and I had an actor for three years from 31 to 34. Just working on this film? Just doing my film. And people told me, that's, like, even at the time, everybody, my wife, not my wife, actually, she was the most supportive person, but like everybody in my world had told me, this is actor suicide, and it kind of was. So when I came back out again, I said to my manager who, God, bless him, stuck with me, he said, what do you want to go in for? Like, people are curious, like, and people have forgotten, you know, like that you're even around. People think you've left. And they said, what do you want to go in for?

and I said every fucking thing. Yeah. Just put me, like, I need, I need the money. Yeah. I was a couple of hundred thousand dollars in debt and just kind, and I had no source of income. Right. It was really terrifying.

Well, tell me, before I do, do that, about the process of, like, deciding to make that film and, and putting it together. I got, I hit third, I had written two or three scripts in my late 20s, and I thought I was becoming a decent writer. I was, I mean, I was terrible, but I could see something emerging that was a, a little bit of a voice, you know?

And I thought, and then I started sort of filming little films. And, like, I had a couple of little disastrous things that I shot. And then I got this big idea. I mean, it's really big now that I think back on it. I can't believe it. But I thought, at 30 years old, I thought, if I don't, it's so funny talking retrospectively about this,

because 30s is just, like, people tell you that it's fast. It's just so fast. But somebody told me, you know, this is where you sort of, to define who you are. Somebody told me, I can't even remember whom, like at the beginning, at the end of my 20s.

I remember taking that, I took the message to her, but I don't remember the person. But I thought, if I don't, before, for some reason I got into my head that if I didn't write and direct the film before I was 35,

that I would never be a filmmaker. I don't know why. So I, and I thought, so arrogant, I thought, well, I have a bit of money saved from some of the movies I've done

and I've got a little bit of cash. I can, and I can raise the capital. I can go and I can meet with people. Hey, I'm a gentleman guy. I can fucking get some water. What a douchebag.

So I thought, so I thought that this, this process would take minutes and it took eons, you know, like, but, fuck, I don't even know where to begin

when I talk about this one, but essentially I've written, I wrote this piece, which was, you know, and I'm not a dummy, I wrote myself a great role. Like, I wrote myself, like,

you know, a really cool role in a movie that I think is, I still, I still am really proud of. I think it's really pretty. But he speaks Spanish, for most of the movies. I'd never spoken Spanish

in my life. I mean, I speak pretty fluently now. Like I taught myself Spanish for the movie. For the movie. And that took, and it took as long as it took to raise the money, you know, so, which was a good thing. I, you know, so skinny. I told myself, I mean, I've got a little bit of a beard

now, but like I I say a little bit of one, you probably think that's kind of a healthy one. I say that because I was the fucking Unabomber before I, like I literally I had made this pact with myself I'm not cutting this off until my movie's made. I'm not getting this beer,

which is such a... I understand. It's weird. No, but people always do that things. I mean, people are always kind of doing these like weird, self-imposed, you know, trials and deadlines and, you know,

that make no sense. I mean, it's like baseball players having to wear the lucky socks or whatever. Right. You know, or, you know, after breakup, I did this when I was very young. After breakup, I was like, I'm not going to shower. That ended when I was hosed down on my roommates.

Yeah. Yeah, you know, but I mean, these things are like, what does that mean? It's meaningless. You know, these are meaningless. But they make sense in the context of what's happening to you. I'm going to stop the interview for just a second to point out that there's a book on the wall that says, I'm not a slut. Yes. Yeah, I wrote the foreword for that book. That is terrific. It's a book about slut shaming. I need, I need to read. I'm not a slut. I'm sorry. It's an affirmation. You say to itself every morning when you get up, I'm not a slut.

So, so neither of us are sluts. No. But we're sluts for our work. Yes. Very slutty when it comes to work. I had this thing and I wrote this piece that was very complicated that took place in the barrios of Colombia and the deepest, darkest, poorest parts of Colombia. And I started flying out there and I started going into these really dangerous areas where, you know, people were regularly murdered and police wouldn't go and stuff. And I taught myself Spanish and I ended up sticking signs on telephone poles around the neighborhoods to make auditions for children because this is a part of a little girl in the movie.

And now I look back on it, it just seems out of body. I can't believe that I, I can't believe I did it. I don't need to do that again. I don't need to punish myself that much again. But it's, and if I'm honest, I'm a little gun shy second time around. Like I'm writing the next one now. I'm so afraid because I do think I'm a little bit like you. And when I want something, like I will go out and I'll go and get it.

Like if I have to, it doesn't matter how long it takes me. Right. I'll just, like, for some reason, I'm just, I'm just, um, it's disgusting. I'm kind of like, um, you know, De Nereer and Raging Bull. Right. Just keep, you know, face fucked up. But I'll still, I keep, I keep getting up, you know, and, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, like, I, I'll be honest, I broke a couple of times. Like, I, you know, um, but. Broke how? Uh, it's tough to talk about, but it's, um, uh, I developed, because I just wasn't eating and I was

being foolish with my diet and other things. I, you know, I'd rather not talk about here, but that I, I developed like a severe anxiety disorder. Wow.

Which is interesting because I've never spoken about it before. But I, which I, which I've since sort of for some reason I personally remedied. I don't know how I how, I do know how it happened. I started exercising like crazy.

Right. And for some reason, it just, it all went away. Yeah. But I developed, I was having panic attacks and really serious. I feel so humor. It's so interesting. No, it's really interesting to me. You know, look, the, you know.

Never spoken to anybody about it. It's so. Hey, when there's a microphone in your face, let's talk about that. No, of course. This is really interesting. And I think, you know, like without, you know, turning it to something it's not, I think that's going after something

in such a one-pointed way and look, just hearing you talk about it, you probably couldn't have written a more difficult film to make, except for maybe it was like on the moon. I mean, this is like another country, a language you don't speak. It's your first film. Most people write a film about their family sitting around

and fucking kitchen table arguing about, you know, like... We shot it on the red, which had never been, you know, at that time was just not... Nobody tried it. Right. And we were shipping these things to, like, I was like, I'm going to shoot on digital. And people are like, what are you shooting on digital? Like Peter Jackson can. You can't. Yeah. You know, we were, it was all so sketchy and like I just, luckily people believed in me, you know, and that was the problem with having this weird manifesting disorder. Because I never took medication for it.

But I probably should have retrospectively, but like, looking at it as like, because I had to hide it because people needed to follow me. So I couldn't ever show any fear. Right. I would know and remember what you're going to say because I was going to say and adjunct to that is that something you don't I think ever realize about directing until you've done it when you're envisioning it and you're fantasizing about it and you're thinking about it and you're planning and you've got answers and you've got clarity and you've got a vision there's nothing like being on the set every day and having every single person need you to know what you want every minute of the day and there and then

there has to be a point, I think there's a point for everybody where you don't know if you have an answer for everybody every minute of the day or if you even have an answer for yourself and so of course you were going to be anxious. Well the most pleasurable part of it was the directing of it. The least pleasurable part of it was the raising of the money. You just met, I've never met more charlatans fucking deceitful, awful sharks and monsters.

Like I didn't believe, you know, you're going to tell me I'm incredibly naive because you came up sort of into the system through into where you are through a very different route. So you probably met some of these monsters a lot earlier than I did just through comedy. But the kind of parasites that I met when I was raising money, I didn't, I thought they existed in 80s movies. I thought they existed in Brad Easton-Alice novels.

I didn't think that they were actual people. And so it's weird. Like, I've never, you know, I mean, I went to a very religious school, the school I was talking about earlier. And I, and I, but I, you know, as a consequence, I was sort of an atheist by the time I was like, no, I don't, not an atheist. I, I, I, I believed in some sort of power, but like, what do you call that? Wait, is that agnostic?

Okay. But I, but I, so I, but I don't, like, I believe in nature and I believe in, you know, but, but, but because I'd, um, pushed away all of this stuff, oh, fuck my brain went into about 40 different directions there. And now, and I just completely. lost my train of thought. Anyway, no, no, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but what I was going to say was, I didn't believe, that, I just didn't believe that people were, were, were, were, I, were actually vicious, like, I, I, I think, I think, I think, I thought,

that people were, I think that, I, thought that, you know, people made mistakes, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, I, and, I have to learn that, you know, to be forgiving of that. But I didn't think people would, would willingly and knowingly kind of try and fuck you. Right. And that was what, and the worst person you can pray upon, and the last person on earth who should be prayed upon is an independent filmmaker who has a vision to tell a story that's a really pretty story. It's like, like, leave that person alone. Like, that person's actually trying to say something like kind to the world, like, go and pray on, you know, I don't know. I'm trying to think of somebody

who might also have like impure motives, but you know that's neither here nor there but it's that I lost something in that like I lost a little bit of faith in that place I don't know what that

God I sound dark when I talk about that stuff but it's true like I don't you know I don't the raising of money for people is what created so much chaos because I think something like seven times I thought I'd raise the money to make the movie. And different things happened.

There was the financial crash of 07. There was that property crisis was another one. A guy just said he was going to give us the money, didn't. There was another British guy who led us on for like two and a half years who just turned out. We eventually found out he had no money. But he was just wanting to go out for dinners with us. It was just so weird. It's just pathological.

I don't understand that. Anyway, I digress violently. Before we move into kind of like you finishing the movie, did you have a sense, because this is another thing, especially someone who's maybe like been extraordinarily kind of like emotionally healthy for most of their lives, when you were having all these panic attacks, do you see what was happening?

Did you know what was happening? Or were you just like, I'm dying? Did you have a sense of what was going on? Yeah, I mean, death is definitely like in your mind. Like the weird thing about being like, because before that I was sort of, I was like, I'm indomitable. Like nothing can get to me.

And I liked that feeling of like, I just didn't think anything could, touched me. I, you know, and then suddenly that got broken and shattered and, and fell away. What's weird, though, is after the film was finished and I went back to acting, I was better. I went back at like 34, I started again. And people are like, you're done, man.

Like, because, like, I mean, literally, many people said to me, from 31 to 34, and, like, I wasn't doing the greatest movies, but I was booking stuff and I was booking shows and whatnot. And to step away at that time, was a tough thing to do. Like, it was, it was looking back. You had some momentum and you let it go. Yeah, a little bit. Exactly.

Exactly. And that's all it was. And so coming back into it again, but I was different. I don't know. I was more, weirdly enough, I was more relaxed. Like, I was more, I had more, I was actually more fearless, which is fucking weird, because I was more afraid. Right.

Like, I don't know, maybe I just made peace of the fear. I don't know. I don't get it. I think anybody. who tells you that, you know, that they've got it under control, anybody who tells you, I fucking nailed it. They never nailed it. You never nailed it.

I never trusted any artist who says to me, fucking nailed that shit. Right, right. You didn't nail that shit. If you said you nailed that shit. Everybody was like, I don't know, did I? It's probably the guy or the girl that you're like, you just fucking tore that in your asshole.

Yeah, you killed it. Yeah, you killed. And you never, and I don't know. I mean, I don't know that it's ever helpful to creativity to walk and thinking you've got everything dialed because you need to also be prepared and open for, extremely unexpected things to happen and to be and to know that you don't know all the answers

like I said even though that's what everybody needs from you to know that your own work is going to surprise you they're going to walk in one day one moment and whatever plan you had is not going to execute to you know what I mean to your specifications yeah definitely did the film did the actual filming go the way that you wanted it to yeah it was so much better yeah it was just beautiful it was like like

that was the most fun part of it And that was when I was working 20 hours a day and just not sleeping and smoking 400 cigarettes. I was so skinny. But once we were filming, it was it. Like, I was like, oh, this is the thing I needed to do. Like, a lot of the fear was that was causing these attacks was that I was going to die before I was going to be able to say this thing. Oh, wow. Which is so weird, right?

That is weird. And it seems sort of like, that's sort of a delusion of grandeur, right? Like, and you sort of become cyclically afraid of the fear. Like that's the worst part. Well, the fear develops its own power. Exactly. It sort of became this thing. But that goes, that can be beaten.

Like I've discovered, I'm like a thank, thank God. I've discovered, you know, personally how to beat that. I don't know how anybody else deals with it. But it's terrifying, man. When you finish the film, you self-financed it. Sort of. I financed a lot of the post-production. and we put a lot of our own money into the shooting of the Los Angeles aspect.

No, sorry, the Bogota, the Colombian aspect of it. But the investors matched us and stuff. I mean, I made the whole thing for like, honestly, $500,000. That's incredible. Yeah, it's... It's incredible. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, look, and, you know, in Showtime, we're gracious enough to buy it,

and that was my, you know, and they wanted it. You know, I've got to give myself that they wanted it. They wanted it. They also met a doc. about the making of the film because I like the story is pretty not they not showtime but some friends of mine made a dark about it and they sold that to showtime as well which is which I think is I can't watch that and I won't watch that why it's too painful it's just dark it's a story of me like in pain and it's a lot of footage from me from that time and I just look

it's it hard of darkness yeah it is it is it's not that bad Jesus Christ that's the that's beautifully made and and and and the the problem with it is and it's, I sound like such a little brat, but like it's not even one one hundredth of the amount of difficulties that went down. People are like, I can't believe you survive them. I'm like, yeah, you don't know nothing. I feel like Dustin Hoffman and wagged the dog. You know, like, you think that's something?

That's nothing. Wow. Anyway, but once I came out of that, then I desperately needed to make money. And that was around the time that I booked like a handful of shows and one of which was the vampire virus. When you came, you're saying, you felt like you came back a better actor. And I wonder if a part of that,

yeah, I mean, kind of what all this, you were carrying all this fear around, right? And it was affecting you in really like, visceral, like, palpable ways, like actual visible ways. But then you actually did what you set out to do. And so I wonder if some of that fearlessness

or that fear-driven fearlessness, whatever it was that kind of gave you this, like, new, this new way of thinking, about yourself as an actor came from just living through something that could have killed you. Yeah. You know? It did minimize like the importance of like doing well in addition. Also, also made me riskier too. Like I mean, have you ever edited your own stuff? I have. I'm not a feature but a lot of shorts and I always edit them. Yeah, I always do it myself. Yeah. It's the most fun thing of all time and it makes you, I think every actor should do it. Like I, I,

when you edit your own stuff, you're like, take more chances. Right. Be riskier. That's fail more. Push harder. Fail more. Like, fuck you. Like, fail more. Like, if you're not failing, it's that Ira Glass is this beautiful thing on YouTube.

He does this four-part thing called storytelling. It's just storytelling with Ira Glass. Go look it up on YouTube now. It's awesome. But wait, but finish the show. But then after that. I am not a slut. But you should check it out because, like, he says this beautiful thing, you know, at one point.

He says, you know, when you begin any artistic pursuit, you know, at the beginning, a lot of people begin in an artistic sort of quest to sound a little pretentious because they have taste. And he says, the ravine between that which you are doing and that which you aspire to doing

is kind of great in the beginning. It's enormous. It feels like it can never be, you know, it can never be narrower. And yet, you know, that's the Gladwell 10,000 steps, 10,000 hours or whatever. And he insists that at that point, you must continue.

He goes, that's where most artists quit, you know. But he also says, if you're not failing regularly at what you love to do, you're not really living, you're not succeeding. And I think you sort of said that on actually on your Chris Rock podcast, so you said you said something akin to that, which I thought was, it really resonated with me. And listening to, I thought what you said was really beautiful. And I wish I could quote you on it, but you sort of said something akin to that. The thing about success, not being the absence of failure, but persistence through that. Yeah, and just, and kind of like embracing failure and loving it. And like, you know, there's this weird idea like that we, and we had at New Zealand too that like, you know, you should only succeed and you should only be glorious and you should only be triumphant.

But give me that fucking guy or girl who's just like falling on their face constantly like, you know, I remember a few years ago somebody pulling up this YouTube thing for me and saying, check, check this, check out. She's so, she's so funny. She's so funny. She's, I think she's really like this. Now, it was this woman giving this weird film review online of the Santa Claus. too and she was just like this bizarre creature sort of eating um doritos and stuff and through the interview it was Melissa McCaffee and as Melissa like and what's amazing about that person is like she was just doing stuff and kind of pleasing us she's now the biggest comedy actor in the world like you know she's and she's so funny and so talented and I was just watching like I remember

like falling in love with him we me and my friends were desperately trying to find other things of her online like other because she would do these film reviews and they were just so funny anyway but but i i love i love um you know watching i think comedians are a good example like will feral is constantly doing stuff just do the stuff and and some of it actually doesn't work even though he's probably the funniest dude on the face of the earth but it's like but it's what's amazing is this that like he's constantly i feel like comedians almost are more i mean heroic to me in that sense that they they're constantly willing to just sort of lay down like ideas and be bad and tell bad jokes in order to find the gold, which I just think is so, it's so splendid. We, you know,

we have a weird, anyway, I'm on a weird tangent. No, I mean, it just, we were just talking about kind of creative bravery because, you know, part of you came back and you were really being really prepared. Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right. I'm going to go out for everything. I'm going to take everything. Yeah. I'm going to go out for everything because I have to. And the, and the edit sort of taught me when I was watching the edit. And that's why I asked you, when you're watching the edit, you're like, oh, just, just, just take more chances. It's okay. Be, be, like, you know, know when Brian Cranston was talking about like how he eventually booked, you know, some some really magnificent stuff in his 40s and stuff. He was saying, people said, what changed for you?

And he said, I'm just going to go in and have the most fun I can possibly have in and my auditions. And I think that that is something that we forget to do. Like, we're so busy trying to get it right. Right. Like, just fuck it. Like just be bad, but be your, be your train wreck. Right, right. I'm a lot of slut. I'm going to be a trip. I am my own beautiful train wreck. my own beautiful train wrecks love. I, I, I, you, um, you get one of the, a bunch, you book a bunch of things and then one of the things that you book is vampire diaries.

And the character that you play is this, um, kind of dreaded, you know, nemesis for the characters on the show who turns out when you meet him to be utterly delightful, which wasn't really interesting. I mean, I, that's how I remember it. I actually do watch the show and I do remember thinking, like, we feared him, but he was this kind of,

like benign benignly evil force I wonder if that was it I wonder how much of that was the way that the character was written how much of that was the way that you chose to play him I mean I remember getting the audition ready for my you know with my friend and then I showed the audition to my wife and I said

here's what I'm gonna here's what I think he is and I showed her the version of that I thought he was and then I said here's what I think is going to me the role. And Rachel said, the second one, you know, she goes, that's going to get you the role. You're right. And she goes, the first one's better. So I ended up doing it, doing it that way, which is weird. I've never done it like that. I remember thinking, okay, yeah, okay, if I play it a little bit more like this, then it's a bit more. That seems to discredit, like, the whole casting system. I don't want to sound irreverent, but I do think that people want to see things a little bit more

delineated and pronounced. And, you know, I do think they want to it. In the beginning, they want to know. And then once I'm, who's bad? Who's good? How should I feel? Right, exactly. And then once I got in there, I, for some reason, I haven't gone through all this terrible stuff. And then now I'm at a period where I'm sort of conquering my anxiety through, weirdly enough. And it was an accident that I found it. Like I started doing fighting stuff. Like I never fought in my life. I was like most guys, I thought I could, you know, and I ended up doing this moitai. and learning about MMA, which I just didn't, I didn't, I wasn't interested in before. Now I'm just a huge, like, love, love like MMA stuff. But, you know, I started training and really hard, sometimes twice a day, like 90 minutes a day. I was just, I just liked learning about boxing and kicking an elbowing and knees and all that shit. And for some reason, then that anxiety had gone and it was around that time that I sort of booked Elijah. And I think, I think I was bringing a sort of a confidence into it.

And I remember seeing certain fighters in the gym who were just so frightening because they just didn't do anything. And they were just so still. And they reminded me of my uncles who were farmers in New Zealand, like my mother's brothers who were all these, they were just men. And these guys were fucking dudes. And they just didn't do anything. They were just so small. Am I put you to sleep? No.

I'm so tired right now. I've slept like four hours and last two days, but you're fascinating me. So don't think I'm falling asleep because you're boring. I just realized that I I slept three hours two nights ago and four hours last night This is this is the byproduct of the person who works all the time Is that I don't sleep

But don't know don't nope stop because I I'm like I'm not regulating my facial expressions from You don't need to regulate shit like I feel like I've got a Yeah No it's me totally I'm a father of two two babies under two like my voice should be soothing Yeah You know it is Anyway, so I ended up emulating some of the fighters that I had seen. And you were doing all this fighting right before you got this role.

Yeah, about a year before, about the last eight or nine months before. And I was doing it so hardcore because I'd found this thing that meant that my anxiety had gone away. Was it magical, though? You just decided. Magical. Okay. Fucking like, it just felt like the world was just, it was so, I thought I'm not. not going to be committed to a hospital.

Right. Wow. And I'm not going to have to take drugs. And you were casting, were you casting about for solution at that point? Because you didn't go to therapy and you didn't get medication. You're just sucking it up. I was sucking it up because I just didn't want people to, it's so dumb. You didn't want people to know. Yeah, I didn't want people to know. I was humiliated. I felt, I felt embarrassed about it. Wow. Isn't it stupid? But it was just, it was just, and actually, I think that's

maybe one of the reasons why I felt like okay when it came up earlier and I went left at the junction to go and talk about it because I thought, well, you know, it's, like if I could just be, if I can be honest, that might be something that I can bring to this. Because I'm not Sam Rockwell, I'm not Chris Rock, but like, and I'm not, you know, even remotely as interesting as those guys, but what, but what, but if you, if it, but it's like that, God, I know I go all over the place. No, it's good, it's good, it's good. There's this beautiful, beautiful Charlie Kaufman, um, speech. You have to listen to it.

He's speaking to the, the, to these folks at Basta, the Bafter, the Bafter hall. And it's like about two or three year old. It's like a SoundCloud podcast. And it's the most beautiful speech I've ever heard delivered by a human being. It's just like he talks about art. He's never given a public speech before. And he just says this beautiful thing in the middle of it. He says about 10 or 15 minutes.

And he says, you know, just say who you are. Right. Just really stand. You plant your feet on the ground and say who you are. Because you might only help like a handful of people. You might help 100. You might have 100,000. It might help people in five years.

It might help people in 50 years. But it'll mean something. It has real currency because I believe that there's something that's missing in you. And there's something that's missing in me. And we're all trying to sort of fill it with what we're doing with art. And it's like, and it's just like a slice of how this beautiful speech. Anyway. But you know, the other thing is also when you say who you are, I mean,

I wonder if you found this even previous times in your life or even right now, that a lot of times these keeps, God, this is going to sound like some kind of like soap opera platitude. But I really mean it. have this thing that you have been keeping a secret. And when you keep something a secret, you're keeping it a secret from yourself as well, right, on some level. There's something very freeing about just, like, saying who you are, like, all of the parts of you, not just the parts that you feel most proud of, or the parts that you think are most presentable. There's like this kind of an interior strength in saying, like, here was when I was frail, here is when I

triumph. Here is where I failed. You know, because they cease to be puncture points. You know, they cease to be weaknesses once you put them in the light. So true. It's like when you go to therapy, yeah, I did that. It's like when you go to therapy and you're terrified of talking about this one thing or whatever. And you talk about the thing. And the shrink couldn't look any less interested or any more boy. They kind of look like you do right now.

Right. No, no. I remember saying things in therapy and I was like, and then this happened and I'm a terrible person. And the therapist is like, whatever. Whatever. They're like just looking at their watch, just scratching as nuts. Yeah, exactly. God, yeah.

You and 17 other guys way worse than you just came in. That guy came with blood, like, you know, in his teeth. Yeah, you and your little thing that you were talking about. They've heard it all. Yeah.

But, I mean, even again, this thing, these things that make you human are what make you, are what make you an interesting artist and what make, also what make you interested, in art, they would make you curious, right?

Like, you're telling the story that you told in Broken Kingdom where you're trying to decide how you're going to play a character. Like, you're not playing them in perfection. I mean, it's the divots, it's the frailties that make them interesting, right? But then you can't tolerate those same frailties

in yourself. Yeah, I've never looked at it like that. That's so funny. Yeah, because I adore the flawed characters and the shitty parts of people. I love that people are are kind of monsters. I love it about them, actually.

How has it been? I mean, in the interest of full disclosure, people out there who are TVD slash original fans, I am, I have, I do watch Vampire Diaries, but I wasn't able to jump fully into originals, mainly because I don't have fucking time on this TV, this face that you're making.

I know, I'm like the most, and this is going to have been an intolerable hour for you. Are you kidding me? I've just destroyed. I've destroyed you. No, it's so great. But, you know, you play a villain who has these increasingly redeemable qualities. And I just, you know, and look, if you've never seen these shows, I think you could dismiss them as being like a lot of really attractive people walking around in, like, nice clothes.

And I don't think that's a fair assessment, although there are a lot of really attractive people walking around in very nice clothes on these shows. But I wonder now that you've played, it's true, it's a lot of hot people. very hot shows. I wonder for you, now that you've gotten to play this character

for several years and in a variety of contexts, how... My favorite was in Third Rock from the Sun. Elijah was amazing.

Oh, it was so good of that one. Totally out of context. He's lived a long time that guy. Sorry, sorry. Is he a different

person to you now? Do you play him differently? I keep trying to find him. I keep trying to, that sounds so pretentious, but I'm going to stop doing the disclaims. No, stop disclaiming in this song.

I just, I keep trying to find him. Like, every time I'm doing that role. And that is one advantage that you have when you do play a character for a while, because I'm not going to be playing him forever, nor do I desire to play him forever. Right. I don't think anybody wants to play any character forever. Disagree. There are some people, like Matt Hastings, who's

one of the producers on our show, his father was on, I think it was one life to live or General Hospital. One of those ones. He is the world record hot. Like, he's play, and a lot of people in soaps play those characters for 20, 30, and 40 years. Wow. They have no problem. And, you know, they call it the golden handcuffs.

Right. But I think, I think that's not a fair little metaphor. I think that some people, like, really just enjoy, like, playing that character and exploring it. And they've got it, you know, to quote Leonez and the special set of skills. Right. Yeah. But, you know, which is amazing. They do, like, 30 pages a day.

Oh, yeah, they're crank. I mean. Amazing. You know, you're on, like, a scripted show. We've on the scripted show where you're like, we did 11 pages. And you go on in a film and they're like, we did two-thirds of a page today. Yeah. We kicked its ass.

You didn't do anything. I'm sorry. You're saying you're continuing to try to kind of figure out who Elijah is. Yeah. It's like, because I feel like I, the piece doesn't land itself, the being the show, doesn't lend itself to naturalism. So for two years in there, for three years in there, I was doing another show called Saving Hope, which I was number two on that call sheet and number two on the, I don't know what

that says about. People on you. I'm a number two, I guess. Oh shit. So basically, so essentially, third act. So essentially I had to go between Canada and the States. I was doing, I was, for the last two or three years, I've been doing 40 to 42, 43 episodes of one hour television a year. So I never stopped.

I was always on a plane. Sometimes I'd be in a plane and I'd forget, like, am I going to the States or am I going to Canada? Right. Like, you know, so, and I was a doctor on this other show, which I thought was a really great show. actually NBC played it for its first season and then we got shit canned and then we had to and then we did two further seasons which Ion then picked up and oh that's great but um well the um but the um but what's I love that show I love the actors on that show and the writing on that show and those and it was um but he was super naturalistic so I was playing this guy who was just I could scratch myself I could

I could say a line like you know I could stutter through it whatever but Elijah was this pristine uh you know eloquent no stuttering like if I if I fucked the line, I had to start again. I mean, you listen to me speak. I started a lot. But I mean, I had to, it was so weird, those polarities, because I would be filming one and then going and filming the other. And it was just like this weird, super naturalistic doctor guy

to this kind of magic realism. Like a few days a week, it was a good discipline for me. I don't recommend it. Like I think I've done something like in the last three years, I think I've done 140 something, episodes of one hour. Like, I, I was dead. I'm on a hiatus right now, which is my first break of longer than 10 days in three and a half years. How does that feel? Amazing. Like, I have two, two children who I could love more. They're just little. Like, my son who's like, um, nine weeks,

and I have a daughter who's, uh, 20 months. And I, they are like, well, Irish twin action going up. Yeah, a little bit of Irish twin action. They, uh, the, yeah, second guy was, was the second guy, second person that was not planned. Yeah. Holy shit. Rock and roll. Yeah, yeah, like I needed any more complication.

Champ. You know, he's a little, whatever. I like the way you say champ. So, so you're, you know, but again, someone who's constantly moving, and then we'll do self-inflicted wounds, someone like you who seems to me, observationally, to be constantly moving,

you know, coming out of this film and kind of really like immersing yourself back work and then spending almost three years going nonstop, sometimes it can be really disorienting to stop. Well, I had the, my North Star was payback this money, which I did, you know, I did it in a year and a half, you know, and I'm proud of that, you know, because we were in a ditch, you know, like I really, I really dug us out. And I'm, I'm doing okay now, you know, which is really lovely.

It's a, I'm so privileged to be able to sit in front of you and say, I'm doing okay now. I'm house shopping and stuff now, and not many people can say that, you know, and they have the luxury of being able to say that. Like, I don't know. Anyway, I'm sorry, I took us off. It's all been excellent. It's all been excellent.

And I think it's time for self-inflicted wounds, but you have a very specific approach to this. Oh, yes. So Aisha wanted me to come up with my humiliating story. And I feel, well, two things sort of struck me when I ended up looking at self-inflicted all this stuff. it was that just how much humiliation I had accrued and accumulated over the course years and that it was all just one sort of you know massive coalescing sort of humiliation after humiliation

this is just you know it's it's we I saw I ended up saying to Aisha like I almost think that like there's no one resounding story the funny thing about humiliating stories is they're almost over before they begin. So quite a lot of the humiliating stories, like the great ones that you ever hear are these ones that have, and then this happen, and then this happen, and then this.

What's tough is a lot of them are just this happened. Right. And it doesn't really go far beyond that. It's like when somebody tells you, oh, this really funny thing happened and they repeat it. It's quite often not funny. Right.

Usually because the tellers not. That kind of you had to be their thing. Yeah, of course. But that it didn't have like, I like kind of, I like it to really spiral into like a Larry David type, like afternoon anyway. But I ended up writing down a bunch of stuff because I was just, I'm going to brainstorm Faisha and I'm going to see what I come up with.

And what ended up amusing me the most was the titles of all the stories. Of the stories. And I kind of want you just to, because I feel like the stories that you might conjure in your minds might actually be far more fascinating and humiliating and embarrassing than No, they'll be No, these are pretty bad Some of them sound like I'm name dropping But I'm really just trying to

Like I've had some humiliating experiences with With notable people Like I'm looking at one right now that says Elbowing Lou Reed in the stomach Oh my God I mean just just take that That was a total accident Now I want to preface this with

Please don't make me tell any of these stories I won't just read the list It's going to be good It's going to be like your set list This is like, oh God, I'm going to read you some selected ones, which I think are funny. When you just read the story, when you just read the log line. Oh, fuck me. I can't even read it without laughing.

Offering seven bucks to what I thought was a homeless guy who was actually just a scruffy carpenter enjoying his lunch beneath the shady tree. It's so dumb. But these moments hurt me. Like I don't, I don't believe in the summary of you. like, four pounds of marijuana cake equals not the recommended dosage for an actor playing Huckleberry Finn in Big River. Skabies, part one and two. Oh, dear Lord. I didn't hold back.

I wrote down this. Unrecipricated wink to Johnny Depp at the table read. Because the best part of that sentence is at the table read. On the street, fine, but you're in a work. condition and he doesn't wing back. That's so awful. That story is just so, that story's dark. It's, it's, but

I was stepping in for someone to fuck him. Yeah. But he's also, he's also was super charming and really, really lovely. I have to say that, not just to be politically correct, but he ended up being really sweet. Okay, I'll read you some more of these. Oh, God, I've bought on this producing partner to help me at one

dire point in making the movie, and I've written here. My producing partner, thinks that saying Sieghale to a table of German investors is a great icebreaker. He did that. No, he fucking did that. He thought it was a great... I thought I just pitched it to you. We actually did it.

He did it. He thought it was a great idea. He did it to a table of German men. One of whom was like this ferocious looking boxer. And I was just like, he's going to murder us all. He's going to eat us all. When you're a breakdancing eagle selling pizzas, few people will offer you basic human dignity. I mean, there was just

in New Zealand. Oh, God. I can't bring myself to read you that one just in case you ask me what it means. No, read it, read it, read it. Randomly joking about child abduction to a guy whose ex-wife actually stole his kid away to Japan.

Oh, God. So that was classy. The worst part was we were doing a scene in a Japanese embassy too. And so he was surrounded by sorrow. There was just nothing I could do. So I was like, How could you have known?

I didn't know, but I was like, I kind of like, you know, I looked at the heavens. I was like, what are you? What is that mean? Why is this happening? Because I really plucked that from the ether. I was like, oh, I can't even imagine, you know, anyway. I don't know if I'm, these are just, it's just going to keep getting worse. I don't know.

I'm getting into a knight's costume for a girl that, oh, that was no, let's not do that one. They're all just like, I'm sort of a bad person. No. So there's so much. The other thing that's really interesting about, I'm closing the book now, is that there's a real concentrated period of time where you make sort of some of your most mistakes.

And I was really honest about writing those down. I did go in and I thought, I'm just going to. And it's horrific. Like there's a period of time. But in a way, it's sort of your greatest periods of growth. They're sort of like where your greatest moments in life where, but it was, they're hard to go back to like, when I finish doing this for you,

you, I felt terrible. I felt like texting you and saying, I think I did, didn't I? Right. You did. This is horrible. This is really horrible. Yeah. And confronting and, um. But freeing on some level. I mean, looking at these things that terrify you. Again, we talked about it earlier. We're talking about the stuff that you're going through on your film. You know, there are these dark recesses in your life that also in your mind that almost looking at them metaphorically makes you shudder. You have to look at them. You have to do it. You know, I mean, you're giving, you're giving it more power. over you than it deserves. And, and embracing your humanity, right? Like, I'm just this frail,

kind of naked, terrified, occasionally transcendent animal. Just seeing that clearly, you just free yourself from all those moments when this darkness is too powerful. That's beautiful. Too powerful. If nothing else, what you just said came out of this interview. Oh, the whole thing has been a delight. It's been awesome. Thank you so much. I love talking with you. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was Daniel Gillies. Wasn't that a great conversation? Just smart, thoughtful.

Big, big conversation, big ideas. Big ideas on girl and guy. That's how we get down. We traffic in big ideas. I would give you an apology for today, but I don't feel apologetic. Also, I'm racing out to see The Martian. Because you know what?

Even I occasionally have to be a human being. I really want to see this movie. It's been really well reviewed. So that's what I'm doing today. If you want to know what I do on my spare time, I work in my spare time. But occasionally I punch a hole through the concrete wall that is my workload

to go be a human being. So I'm about to go fuck up a giant bucket of popcorn and watch The Martian, and I encourage you to do the same or some variation thereof. You guys are the greatest, you are my army, you are relentless, you are luminous, you are badass, you are Legion. I'll touch you in the next one. Late.

Girl on Guy is a production of Hot Machine, blowing shit up since 2009.