Girl on Guy with Aisha Tyler - girl on guy 200: kelly carlin

Episode Date: October 21, 2015

this is the 200th episode of girl on guy. it is with kelly carlin, the daughter of one of the greatest american comedians of all time. she is as thoughtful, funny, smart, bold, honest and unapologetic as you would think the daughter of george carlin would be. happy 200th birthday, army. 

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Squarespace, build it beautiful. This is Girl on Guy. Hey everybody, welcome to episode 200 of Girl on Guy. This is the 200th episode of the Girl on Guy podcast. If you do not include all of the many extra episodes, bonus episodes that you get, if you become a premium subscriber, and there's also a new exclusive episode uploading this week. But this is the official 200th episode of this show. And that's a milestone.

You know, a lot of television shows never make it to 100 episodes. And I've made it to two. so I'm feeling very good about that. I hope you are too. And it's a special episode with a very special guest that I'm very proud of and I'm excited about. I'm working so hard right now and I'm not complaining and I'm also not gloating. This is just a statement of fact. I am just in a constant kind of penny tasting like low-level gray flop sweat across my brow and dripping down my flanks because I am doing the talk and criminal minds and this podcast getting ready for season seven. Well, in the middle of making season seven actually of Archer, which debuts in January, and getting ready for season four,

whose line is in any way, which starts filming in January. Skittering hither and yon, working on my short film. Obviously, touring is put on hold, working on Courgidstone, which is proceeding apace, and will debut, make its gorgeous Kinsenera debut, although you shouldn't drink at your Kinsenera unless your parents are supervising you and then go to ship bananas. I'm not your mother in the spring of 2016. So lots going on, and that's why occasionally the show doesn't go up exactly as planned, but it is going to go up relatively on time this week,

and I'm excited about that. So just all those good things. You can always follow me and friend me online to find out what's going on with me and my many projects, of which I am both grateful, grateful, and also nominally proud, not because I think I'm awesome, just stoked to be busy, my friends,

just stoked to be working. Let's get the business out of the way quickly and move on to the fun stuff. This episode of Girl and Guy is brought to you in, part by our good friends, Warby Parker. Good old Warpy Parker, from whom I have purchased a beautiful and functional pair of guide glasses that I absolutely love. Warby Parker presents a brand new concept in eyewear, contemporary eye glasses that are incredibly affordable and fashion forward. And here's

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Go to Warby Parker.com slash Girl on Guy and begin your free home try-on experience today. Check that out. All right. This episode is with Kelly Carlin. And you say to yourself, Kelly Carlin, hmm, I recognize that name. Well, you recognize that name because she is the daughter of one of the greatest comedians of all time, George Carlin, who I think no one would argue with the idea that he is a legend, a bright, bright star in the constellation of great American

comedians. He was actually on a list number two, on the Comedy Central list of the 100 greatest stand-up comedians of all time, only behind Richard Pryor. He's made 14 stand-up comedy specials for HBO. He has appeared on dozens of television shows. He has been so influential on so many young comedians and he passed away in June of 2008 at the age of 71. He had an extraordinary and complex life and we are going to talk about that a lot in this conversation and also about that life and the evolution and the change and the dynamism and the self-destruction that went on in his life.

We're going to talk about how that affected his only daughter. This is a great conversation. I was lucky to get Kelly. She is smart and interesting and had so many extraordinary experiences that were both driven and influenced by and then also independent of her father. And it's just awesome. And I'm so proud and so thrilled to bring this to you as the 200th episode of Girl on Guy. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Girl on Guy number 200 with the lovely and all around delightful Kelly Carlin coming at you straight out of the brand new Girl on Guy Bunker and right into your face. I have a similar setup in my backyard studio also.

Good. Kelly Carly, welcome to my show. Oh my God. Thank you for having me. I'm a huge fan, by the way. And I have a girl crush on you. Oh, I am so flattered.

Thank you. We're just start off with that. Yay, okay, good. We already started off on both two good feet. Excellent. Now, before we started the beginning, which I think is critical with you, I do want to say that we were just starting, before he started, you were saying,

I don't know how you're finding time to do your show anymore. Truly. Like you have, you're not just doing one thing. You're doing amazing things, like 10 amazing things. Well, thank you.

And a podcast. And a podcast. And I wanted to, because you stopped. You have a podcast and you stopped doing it for a while. And I just couldn't, I didn't have enough bandwidth

inside of me. Because I do a lot of research for mine too. I do none, which makes this a little easier. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but it's what's interesting is it,

again, it's not, like I think for somebody maybe like an Adam Carolla or something like that. He just shows up and talks for three hours and he leaves, right? But for you, and even for me, because I don't have a team, it's so much more than the hour and a half of the show. And then, like you said, it's not just the physical bandwidth.

It's the mental bandwidth. It's the energy. Yeah. And that part is... And I want to do a good job. Yeah, you want to put crap out there. And I have authors on, so it's like, well, you've got to read their book.

This guy's written about, you know, asking big questions in the world. I want to know what these things are before I talk to him. So I've got to read it and gronk it and everything. Right. Yeah. I'm pausing really quick. Yeah. And I do think you want, like, it's rare that I hit a bump where I didn't research someone and then I lost something. Every once in a while. Because usually what happens, what's exciting is that because it's so much more about the person's life, I just want to hear about their life without knowing too much. I want to discover. Yeah.

Yeah. But occasionally I'll be like, oh, I wish I'd read about that. So I could have asked them about that. It's maybe only happened a couple of times. But it's so interesting because this issue, of the bandwidth issues really, really urgent for me. And I wonder, like, how, when did you come to the point where you were like, okay, I've got to put this on hold for a little while? Like, what was happening in your life? I just, I get, I start to get anxiety. I get this anxiety, and then I feel overwhelmed.

And then when I feel overwhelmed, I shut down. Right. And I go into shut down, like, self-destructive mode, shut down. Like, I'm really just going to give up on everything. On everything. I can't do anything, guys. I'm bathing. I can't even bathe to,

Sorry. You know, I've got a little bit of the depressive in me. So, and I've found I'm a type of person that has to have a pretty good work-life balance going on. I grew up with a lot of chaos in my house. And so I just, I've learned that I have to, I can do so much. And I've learned also that I can do way more than I ever thought. Right, right, right. I mean, that's happened to me a lot in the last few years.

But, you know, also with the podcast, like for me, my podcast was really about finding my voice. and talking out in public for the first time as a human being and having a voice out in public. And for four years, it really gave me that form. And it really helped me with that. And then, like, now with my solo show and the book and other things I'm doing, I have more comfort in that area.

I know who I am more. And so now I feel like I want to go back to the podcast, but I want to really kind of reinvent a little bit. Like, what is its purpose? for me everything has to have a little bit of a long-term goal purpose to it. I have to feel like it's like I'm progressing in some way. Yeah, it's pointing to something. It is.

It has to point to something. And because there's plenty of podcasts around there where people just don't just go in circles. Oh yeah, or just, they're just fucking around every week. I mean, which is fine. Yeah, totally fine. Absolutely. And people want to hear that stuff. Right.

But if I'm going to spend an hour and a half doing something and then maybe another three hours prepping for it, it needs to kind of feel. fit in my overall scheme thing. I get it. I get it. Yeah. I've been thinking, like I said, I've just been thinking about that exact thing because I think, like, for me, I find the podcast, I put the podcast on hiatus every year for like a month and a half. Like all of August, they're like a good chunk of September so that I don't.

It's very European of you. It is. Yes, I do. I take the Parisian holiday, the Parisian holiday the month of August. And to try to be human, right, because I don't have any life work balance. So I kind of shove it all into that one month, you know, try to go be a human being for a month. I'm going to go be a human now. What do humans do? enjoy themselves. That's what I'm using.

It looks like my arms are moving. I'm eating ice cream. I'm interacting with other socially. And when I come back to it, I realize how much. When I'm not doing it, I don't miss it. I'm like, fuck all that noise. When I come back to it, I'm like, oh. Because it is that one little slice where you can only do this thing.

Yes, yes. And it's so, you know, because I think a podcast and I wonder if it was like this for you, is such a specifically personal expression of you more than anything else. And there's no, hey, there's no hair and makeup. Yeah, thank God. Just there's that, first of all. But there's no need to be that. I mean, you know, you're on television in many different forms.

And no matter what, that TV thing that happens, you have to step into a persona to be a person in front of a camera, especially on mainstream television. And this space here, it's like your whole body can relax, every cell, you're just chill. chill and hear, and it's all about connection. Yes. Which, you know, on mainstream TV, connection is a very different concept. Well, even when it's done well, it's still manufactured. Absolutely. You know, it's still, like, managed and curated and manufactured and very limited.

You know, it's just, it's impossible to get something new out of somebody or compelling or interesting, or let's say it's very, very difficult. It's very rare. It's rare. In seven minutes, no way. Stephen Colbert seems to be trying to do that right now. He is. He's trying to have those interviews.

TV podcast or do, you know. It's kind of fascinating to watch. Yeah, what was the old? What was the guy? I have the worst memory. Who was the guy used to come on after Letterman with that crazy voice and the insane, he had that really deep voice and that laugh that was like, ho, ho, ho.

Literally, are the late show after Letterman? Yeah, it was way before. Like, I mean, we were kids. We weren't kids kids, but we were young. I'll think of it at a minute, or maybe I won't because I have a shitty fucking memory. I mean, it's gone. It's not even. It's shot.

I've stopped worrying about it. I'm like, this is a slow. dissent towards writing my name in poop on the wall, and I've just surrendered to it. And I'm okay with it. It's what's happening. It's what's coming. You know what I mean? I might not like it. It's the truth, though. Let's just embrace that it's me on the floor, you know, like, just making like

poop paintings, like smearing it around in circles. But anyway, it'll come to be like 50 minutes from now. But so, you know, and that is its own kind of form. But you're right. It's funny. Like, I don't know if you found this when you were doing your podcast, you know,

when you go back to doing it, that even some of my interviews, I didn't think I did a very good job at, and this is not tuning my own horn, when I went back and listened, I thought, oh, yeah, something happened there, just solely because of the intimacy and the amount of time you have to talk with somebody.

You eventually get there. You can't not get there. Absolutely. Yeah, which is so enjoyable. And I think really for people who listen to them, they're looking to be a fly on the wall. So that's really all you need to provide. It's just an authentic thing that's happening,

you know, and it doesn't have to be perfect and there's not a million eyeballs on you in the moment and something real will happen. Right. And that's all people I think really want ultimately is to remember that, oh, I'm human, they're human, that authentic thing is happening and we're safe.

Right, we feel safe right now. We feel safe. Like this is something that feels real, you know, if you can manage it. Yep. Okay, let's do it. We're doing it. We're going to start at the very beginning.

Because you already said, just when you sat down that you grew up in a very chaotic household. And I want to do a thing to start out. I'm going to say two things. And they may both be coming directly from the center of my asshole. So apologize if I sound like a dick. The one thing is like this almost half-hearted apology or explanation of like comedians and comedy. Like, just

Like, I'm not apologizing, but I'm just thinking about how, can you put your phone on an airplane? I think I hear it. Oh, really? Yeah. Sorry about that. No worries. That was definitely in.

I mean, I can't say what it's like to live with a comedian because I am one. You know what I can't know what that feels like. Right. So I don't know if I'm apologizing for comedians. I'm just saying that. I'm just saying like I can't possibly understand what that means, but I do know that we have an energy that has to, that has to be and had to have been so curious and unmanageable.

And then you lived with a very specific one. Yeah. Who was probably more curious and more unmanageable than most. It's so interesting because I've really never thought about it from the filter of the fact that he was a comedian and he was at, I mean, the chaos really came from drugs and alcohol that my parents did. But my dad was very driven as an individual artist human being. I mean, driven from like age 10.

Wow. I mean, he used to talk about at that age going to the movies and seeing Danny Kay and deciding right there and then that's what he's going to be. And he came up with a plan in his head. Like, I'm going to be a DJ, then I'm going to be a stand-up, and then I'm going to be a comedic actor. Wow. And so he had this plan.

This was the plan A. There was no plan B. There was no, you know. And so there was a kind of a bandwagon in our family. I'm an only child. And, you know, the one thing I have thought about around this is that we just all signed up for his dream. Right. We're going on that ride.

Right. Whatever it is. And it was the early 60s. I was born in 63. So my mom was, you know, the feminist movement. hadn't really happened. Hadn't really blossomed. Although she was a very independent type of woman,

but my dad was very traditional too and wanted her to be a stay-at-home mom. So interesting because nobody thinks about him as a traditionalist. Of course not. Even one human being thinks, oh yeah, George Carlin was like this. Right.

Even though people remember his early persona, the straight guy, I think people assume logically that that was an act. Oh, and even before that, though, which I don't know a lot about, but he talked about in his memoir last words. Before he met Jack Burns, he was a DJ.

He did end up being a DJ in the Air Force and then coming out and being a top 40 DJ. And then he met Jack Burns at a radio station and they became a comedy team together. Jack was very, very progressive politically. And at the time, my dad wasn't. Wow. He didn't really even think much about it all.

And his mom was a Republican, and he kind of grew up with like businessman, Republican, you know, kind of social, you know, social progressive but financial conservative kind of thinking. And Jack Burns like educated my dad about what the fuck was going on on the planet. Yeah. But the other side of that too is that my dad grew up in what he called White Harlem, which was right next to Black Harlem and Spanish Harlem. So he was very connected to the minority experience and being Irish too in New York. You're very connected to that. So he had very progressive working class roots in some way. But his

politics, he wasn't a radical in 1958, you know? It's like meeting Jack, that kind of shaped him, and certainly then, I think, getting exposed to Lenny Bruce and Mort Saul also really shaped him. But yeah, my dad was,

made my mom stay at home, you know, and be a mom with me. And my dad was a latchkey kid, too, and he didn't want me having to deal with that. So, but yeah, there was this, I mean, and I talk about him now in this way, which is like, necessarily comparing him to this person, but I kind of am. It's like, my dad was kind of like

Picasso. It's like when you're a person of that genius, which I think a lot of people would agree with me about that, in some ways you don't get in the way of that. Like, even as a family, and no one made a conscious decision about this or anything. There's no consciousness going on about this. But looking back on it now, I see, oh, yeah, we just all got on. the bandwagon of what his dream was because we so believed in him. I mean, I was a little kid, but my mother so believed in his vision and so believed in him and his talent that, you know, and A, there was no such thing as work-life balance in the 1960s. Yeah.

And as my dad said, as you know, if you're a touring comic out there, you have to go with the audiences. Right. And there's no, and there really back then would have been any other choice. No other choice. No. No other choice. I mean, there was TV.

He could do the Ed Sullivan. He did all the Carstons and he did all that kind of stuff. But to make a living, you have to go out and go to the audiences. And so that was his job. He was gone a lot, you know. And that set up for my family, part of the issue was that, well, dad's never home. He's doing the dad thing. And he's really never home because he's out of town for two or three weeks.

Right. It's not like he's at the office and coming home for dinner, but maybe a little remote or inaccessible. I mean, he's really not around. really not around. And that was frustrating for my mom because then when dad would come home, he was the other kid in the house. He wasn't the other parent. Right.

He needed to be, he needed to be parented as well and cared for. Yeah. And my mother already had alcoholic tendencies, and that kind of just started just escalating the resentment in the bitterness and all of that. And her loneliness. I mean, my mother went through a major identity crisis in the mid-60s because when they

first met, they were on the road together. They were like comrades in arms, starving artists. Right, right. And then we came to L.A. in 1966, and my dad's now on the John Davidson show and all these corny variety shows, and he's got agents and managers and things to do. And my mother now has nothing to do but chase around this toddler, me. Right.

You know, and she's like smart and creative and amazing, wise person. And she's feeling, she even said it to my dad, you know, I feel like a piece of furniture most of the time. And this, you know, fed her alcohol. which ended up, you know, getting to a point by 1975 where she almost died from it. Wow. She was down to 87 pounds. Oh, my God.

Yeah. And it was cocaine, alcohol, and Valium at that point. And by that point, my dad had been doing cocaine himself for about four years. I was going to make the most inappropriate. I just was going to go, we, like, it was like all of the things. Like, how many of the things, the up, the down, the middle, like every direction of, you know, intoxicants. So, yeah, I mean, yes. Yes.

so you name it. No matter what direction they were trying it and trying to balance it all out, you know. And being an only child, I was, became what they called, you know, the parentified child. Right, right. Okay, I'll be in charge if you people aren't going to be in charge.

Right. And I would get in the middle of their chaos because, you know, cocaine fuels arguing, alcohol fuses arguing. I mean, there was a lot of screaming and yelling in my household, a lot of that going on. on top of my mother, you know, alcohol really changes a personality. Whereas, my dad would do Coke and he would just organize nuts and bolts, you know.

He would redo the vinyl collection, you know, let's do it by alphabet, by genre tonight, you know. Right, just constant reorganizing. Oh my God, and he was OCD. So, you know, it was like fed completely into that part of his brain. So he always seemed like the more rational kind of one in the family, you know, even though it was strange. He had his own mania. Yeah, yeah. And then, and so add on top of that, it's now the early 70s, and my dad's gone from the straight, clean-cut guy, to the counterculture guy that people know. And, you know, if you remember America, 1970 to 75, a lot of tension in the air going on. A little bit. Yeah. You know, we got things like Vietnam War is still going on. We got Watergate brewing. Yeah. We got the big McGovern Nixon thing in 72. And it was the first time I think.

that modern Americans understood or really like encountered like in like a palpable way like true kind of criminal hypocrisy in government like I think yes even though there had been scandals like you know teapot dome or something like that it was the first time we were like oh these guys

we had this like false sense that anybody in public service was a good guy who intended the right thing and was doing their best thing and doing the right thing exactly and this was the first time you're like oh no they're awful it was completely shattered our trust I mean that yeah it was really shattered. And it was scary out there to be on the freak hippie side, you know? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

The drug laws, first of all, were to, my dad had a poster of, God, I'd never forget this, a poster at stating each state in what the drug laws were, like if you got caught with, I think it was probably weed. And I'm a little kid, and I know my dad's, you know, I've been watching my, I've been helping my dad clean weed, you know. since I was six and watching him roll weed since I was a baby. So there's weed in our household. And I know there's cocaine around.

I know what's going on and stuff like that. And here's this poster kind of, you know, explaining all of the drug laws in each state. And in my little head, you know, I'm going, oh dear. You know, because daddy could go away at any moment if he ever gets caught type of a thing. Right. And then on top of that, my dad had a bit of a habit of confronting straight white men.

who gave him dirty looks about his hair. You know, with, you know, what the fuck are you looking at, cop-sucker type of, you know, moment. Wee. Fun when you're eight standing next to dad, when that's happening. Oh, God. Trying not to make eye contact. Yeah.

So that's setting up a little tension also. So, yeah, a lot of chaos kind of everywhere. You know, in the household and then outside it felt dangerous. And, you know, and all the time I'm just trying to be a good kid and get straight A's in school and make. my parents laugh and maybe stop arguing for a little while. Was that an aspect of your parentification that you were always trying to referee and negotiate and talk everybody down?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There's a famous moment in our family where we go on a trip to Hawaii vacation. And I talk about it. I do a solo show and talk about some of these stories. And I say in the show, I say, this is when dad realized that something needed to change. for the family. No, we weren't going to family therapy. No, they weren't quitting drugs. No, we were going on a Hawaiian vacation. Somehow that made sense to dad. That's going to fix everything.

Oh, we'll be fine if we just go to Hawaii for two weeks. Oh, my God. And we went to Hawaii for two weeks. And the first day, we went to Maui. The first day we sat in a bar in Lahaina so dad could score. And mom and dad could score. Togetherness. Yes. Yeah, the family, you know, and they kept giving me money so I could go to the boutiques and go shopping and stuff, you know, which was fun. You know, here, go distract yourself. Okay, I'm going to go buy a new bikini. Right.

And then the next few days, you know, mom and dad are okay. But then the blow starts running low. And this was always a big bone of contention. You know, you're hiding the blow or you're not sharing or something. You know, because bogarting blow is pretty much, it's kind of the nature of the beast of that drug. Right. It's not a sharing drug. No, no, no, I mean, if there was ever anything like,

kind of ring, you know, like the relationship between a person and cocaine is like gallum and the ring. Like it's mine, mine, my precious. You know what I mean? They've none for you. They will, you know, they want it's precious, you know? So much. So, so so much. Because you're not just thinking about this line. You're like, I'm going to need more and I'm always going to need more. You're thinking about the next five, six, seven, eight, twelve hours of lines. Yes. Yes. So yeah, it's not a sharing drug. And so, yeah, so my parents, I don't know. They were a chaotic,

crazy moment. They're arguing with each other. They're, you know, they're kind of throwing, it's one of those arguments where every trespass of the last,

you know, 10 years of your life. And then you broke my bowl and then the time you changed the channel. And at some point, they're like, one of them picks up a kitchen knife and the other one, like,

picks up one like, fuck you, you're not going to do that to me. And I, this is, you know, before this, I was always trying to be like,

the calm, one and everything. And this is when I just lost it. I finally emotionally snapped. Like I, this little mind body can't handle this anymore. And I lose it, have a total meltdown. Of course, the knives get dropped. Everything calms down. And my parents are like, oh, this is, like, they knew this stuff was affecting me. They were in therapy. The therapist would always say to them, you know, this is affecting Kelly. But this is when it was like, oh, this is really, really happening. And my dad said even though they didn't get sober right away, like that moment, my dad was like, oh, we really need to get our shit together at some point. Like, I get it now. But what I did was I then sat them down after they calmed down and everything. And I wrote out a UN-style peace treaty. I took a piece of paper out. How old were you? It was probably about 10. Wow. And wrote, I, George slash Brenda Carlin will not drink alcohol or do drugs for the rest of this vacation. So it was just, it was like just a daytoned.

Just to get through fucking Hawaii. Just to ceasefire for the rest of the holiday. I didn't have any real hope that I would control the rest of their lives. This was like, I need a Hawaiian vacation. People, we're in Hawaii. Like, I want to go out and have some fun. Yeah. And I write out this thing and I write out the little lines with their names underneath it and they sign it.

And it's all good and it's all calm. and like, I don't know, 20, 30 minutes later, my dad goes into the bathroom, probably to go to the bathroom, locks the door, and mom's like, fuck you, you're in there doing the blow. I know it, and she just marches right back down to the bar and, you know, orders herself her drink.

And I spent the rest of that vacation, there was like a little, there's always like a little hut that rents all the scuba gear and all that, the snorkeling gear. I just hung out with the girl who did the rental thing, and I would just fill out the rental sheets. And I just hung with her all. day long. I stayed so far away from my parents for the rest of vacation. Yeah, yeah. I have thousands

of questions. So here's the first one. Did that persist in your life? Did you start to just try to get distance from your parents after that? No, no. We were, we were emashed, completely, the codependent textbook family, completely emashed. And no, I worshipped my dad and was very worried about my mother. And my dad and I were always trying to manage my mom's alcoholism because she was way sicker than my dad was in that area. And my mom did get sober when I was 12. And then, you know, when you're 12 and your adolescence, you do start to, you know, but I have to tell you, I mean, it's, it was well into my 30s that I started having some sense of an individual self outside of my parents. I mean, that's been my thing as kind of I disappear into relationships. I become of

service of the system and have no sense of self. And that's kind of what happened. I mean, that was, you know, I have like this arrested development late bloomer thing because I didn't, my sense of self was that, you know, was being of service, being the diplomat, being in the middle of it all, and not really figuring out what is it that I want and I need. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I think it's hard enough for women and girls in general, but then you add a whole family dynamic to it and that just, you know. Well, and all of your satisfaction and your value becomes, comes from like, oh, I was able to manage this situation today.

I was able to get everybody calmed down. We were able to get through this meal. I was able to make this person laugh, stop fighting, whatever it is. That becomes the reward, right? And a false sense of power. Right. Because really, at 10 years old, you really don't have the power to do that. Right.

Addiction is a huge fucking monster in the house. Yeah. You know, and these are adults who need to take personal responsibility. But you do, you get the. this kind of weird false sense of power that's kind of making up for the lack of identity. So it's like you think, oh, well, I, I, you know, I, I, I know more than I know about the world. And yet you really don't. Right, right, right. Completely naive.

And that can persist so intensely, because it also sounds to me like just hearing about, not just the addiction, but even just like the fact that you guys, like you said, you all signed up for his dream, right? Like everybody was essentially in the service of him, you know? And like of, as friends of mine say, they say in Ireland, of himself. Do you know what I mean? Like this, because there was the him that you knew, and then there was the himself that was this greater thing.

Yeah, yeah. You talked about the fact that alcohol really changes their personality, and I think that's something that if you've never been around a chronic alcoholic, it's impossible to understand. You know, people who are casual drinkers or even people who are binge drinkers who are and like rage on the weekends. It's different because you can, you know, when you know somebody like that,

or even if you do that, it's periodic. And it's, it's feeding. And it's kind of contained in this little thing here. It's ephemeral. Oh, yeah. But when someone's drinking like that all the time, and what I don't think people understand is how different they can become. Yeah.

I mean, my mother was, for sure, two different human beings. I mean, when my mother was sober and my dad was sober, our life was filled with so much joy and laughter and happiness and a deep bond. I mean, that's the lucky thing about our family was we had an incredible sense of love and loyalty with each other and we made it through all of this stuff ultimately because of that. And both of them, great people, just amazing people. But my mom, yeah, you know, she was, you know, a lot of bitterness and rage and a lot of anger and that.

So, you know, walking on eggshells, you know, it was my life, you know. And I was able to walk into my house after school and assess, okay, is she, has she been drinking all day? And she's going down further, or is she just waking up? Is she having coffee? Where is she at? Is Dad been up for three days?

Or has he rolled a joint and he's mellow? And have they been fighting, not fighting? I mean, it was like all these different things. things you have to read in the environment. But you shouldn't be having to think about as a kid. You should just be like going out and playing and stuff. And I was lucky too that I would like, hi, bye, okay.

I started being that person. I'm going to go out and play and always had friends and had that too. But thankfully, yeah, the personality switch thing is, it's really frightening to be around. And I think something that people don't understand because I think people have a sense of alcoholics as being kind of violent and outbursty, which they can be. But

chemically, alcohol is a depressant. And so if you're already depressed, it just like buries you. And then you have this dysphoria that comes when you're hung over, where you feel more depressed. So you feed that with depressants. Yes. It's insane.

It's just this like well that you go down. Yeah. And there's really and when you're in it, there's no way out. You don't feel like there is a way out, you know, and my mom was so funny once she got sober, she used to say, God, you know, if someone had just put a goddamn ginger ale in my hand every once in a while, you know, because part of it, too, is just the habit. Just the behavioral, yes.

Because of the social anxiety. I mean, I don't think people really understand that so much of drinking is just about handling social anxiety. Oh, my God, that's brilliant that you said that. It's just so, oh, God, I just, you know, I, you know, I, I, you know, I, you know, I, I think almost nobody has an encounter in an alcoholic. How intimately it's probably different for different people. Right.

But I think that there's something where people are like, well, they're just a drunk and they need it to pull it together. And they don't understand how much of that addiction is fueled by basic psychological and chemical makeup of that person. Absolutely. They're not just undisciplined. You know what I mean? They're not just a slob.

No, they're literally self-medicated. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, and that's, I mean, and I really understand that because by the time I was 14, even though my parent, my mom was sober now and my dad was certainly not doing Coke at home. He was, you know, on the road, doing stuff, but always smoking weed and stuff like that. But the Coke was not allowed in the house. The hard stuff wasn't allowed. And, but at 14, I start stealing roaches from my dad's stash. And I start experimenting with quayludes and things like that.

And people are always like, well, you saw your parents go through so much. How could you turn to drugs? And I was like, well, I hadn't metabolized any of the terror, trauma or fear. I mean, There was some really scary moments in my childhood. I watched my dad go through a bad acid trip once and, you know, arrests and all these sorts of things. A lot of trauma in my body, you know, just wasn't metabolized, was never expressed because I had to be the diplomat and the good girl. Right. And by the time, you know, adolescence, then you add hormones on top of that. And teens are just a mess anyway.

And you're just, yeah, you're crazy anyway. And I know that I turn to weed and all that stuff just. to change the feeling that was going on inside of me because I didn't know how to talk about it. I was afraid of my rage that I had, my natural rage about my parents, you know, what the fuck did you just do for five years, you know? And I know that it was like,

I just want to change this feeling. Yeah. And it is. And I think probably the majority of us reach for it. Just, you know, not as a social thing like, ha ha, this is nice, but change this fucking weird feeling going on inside of me. Yes, yeah, at least deaden it somewhat.

deaden it, yeah, do something. And maybe I can, I feel like I can't control it, but maybe if I drink this thing, I'll pretend I can control it. Well, but you feel like you're controlling it when you do that. I mean, that's the kind of the, God, what's the right word? Like the delusion that you're under,

which is that you're, you know, you're not fixing the problem, you're fixing the symptom, but that makes you think you're fixing the problem because you just don't feel it at that moment. I don't feel like shit. So I must be better. And then you're continually kind of chasing that feeling, which is, you know, harder and harder to get back. What was it, what was the thing that triggered your mom getting sober? Was there a moment? Was there an experience? She literally was dying. I mean, the doctor said to her,

you have three weeks to live. Oh my God. She'd already been in the hospital at least twice for malnutrition because she was so shaky with DTs. and was so skinny from cocaine that she wasn't eating. I mean, she was just not, her body was shutting down. Also, in a constant state of being hung over, you're nauseous. Yeah, and, you know, that real alcoholism where you're completely poisoned your body with alcohol. And, you know, Valium, God forbid.

I mean, Valium's got a half-life to it, so it's like, all this shit's in your bloodstream. And all these depressal, everything's depressing, depressing, depression, everything's depressing, yeah. And then she's doing Coke just to get back up. To get back up. Try to feel normal. But the last few months, I mean, she was, could, shaking so much, could not walk.

She would crawl. Oh, she wasn't eating. And I was, you know, dad would be on the road and I would be ordering cases of wine for her down at the liquor store to have them delivered because she's screaming for it. And I'm in the middle of all of this. And the doctor said, you're going to die. And my dad and I, we just begged and begged and begged for like two weeks. And she finally said, okay, I'll go in. And she, and this is before Betty Ford.

This is 75. There's no, I mean, there's like barely any rehab. There was a place at St. John's Hospital in Santa Monica. It was part of the mental ward at that time. Oh, dear. They had beds for detox, and they had the beginning of this thing called a chemical dependency center. But they didn't really know what to do with people with multiple dependencies and all of that. And she, you know, coming off of the volume, you can get seizures that can kill you.

Coming off alcohol, you can get seizures that can kill you. And they weren't sure how, how much. well she was going to do. And she thought she was going there to die. She was pretty sure. She was like, well, at least there'll be medical teams around me and I will die. But she didn't. She stayed there a month and she came out like the Brenda, my mom was Brenda Florence Carlin, the Brenda that she was, which was this powerful, wise, adventurous, great sense of humor person got to like find herself. And she came out of it. you know, going to 25 A.A. meetings a week and, you know, because she had to learn to survive.

Yeah, because, I mean, that kind of alcoholism, that kind of ongoing all day, every day, crutch, that's not something you just occasionally have to exercise willpower over. You know what I mean? That's like, you need a lot of support. Yeah, you got to get into surrender big time around this one. And she had a great sponsor who was this really funny guy who taught her that she's going to have fun again. Like, you don't need to be drunk to have fun and all of that. And she just, blossomed, you know, and that was amazing to see, but what was so weird about it was, and it's the way I talk about it in my book, it's like, it's like for years, this like nasty witch had put in a curse over the village of the Carlins, and then one day, like, someone

kills the witch, and the curse is lifted, and you come home, and I'm pretty sure I must have had PTSD for a few years, because I would walk into the house wrenched inside of me, waiting for that shoe to drop, waiting for the arguing to start. I remember the first of my parents had an argument once they were all sober, and they had to explain to me that adults have arguments every once in a while, because I was like... This is the beginning of going back to... I was in like DefCon, you know, whatever, you know? And, but it was so hard for me to trust anything. It took a few years to trust that this was really sticking and that mom was back, you know. It was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, weird and scary in its own way.

And plus, like I said, I was then adolescent time for me. Right. Going to your own shit. Yeah. Were you, this is a crazy question. Were you angry at her that she hadn't gotten sober sooner?

Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, you know, I had been angry with her for a while because she, there was an emotional abandonment that had happened. And so I had a lot of that rage.

And we had a lot of difficulty, and really until my mid-20s, when we really got to heal that, But she was really there for me in my teenage years. I mean, I got pregnant a couple of times, and she was there for me. Like, she was this great mom right by my side. But, you know, there was, I didn't trust her. I just didn't trust her.

And that took time to heal. Yeah, because she had never been reliable. Yeah, yeah. And I was lucky that, like, probably up to age six, she had been reliable. So I had a good foundation, you know. You had a memory of her when she was reliable. memory and also like, you know, in psychology they talk about attachment theory, like this really important time, those first 18 to 24 months where you're really attaching to your main caregiver

and that you trust that thing is there to mirror you. I had that. You know, so I have a real sense of self, you know, not a lot, you know, some people don't get that. They don't ever get it. And they don't. And they, you know, and they end up having a lot of mental health issues because of that. I had anxiety and depression and stuff, but I had that, you know. So mom was back, but at the same time, it was like, yeah, and I don't trust you as far as I could throw you, mom. Right, right. And, you know, and like you said, always on the same kind of eggshells, right? Because, you know, there's a mine in here somewhere. And eventually I'm going to step on it and blow myself up like it's happening. Yeah. And so I have to be completely aware.

Right. And it's really interesting, like getting to write, you know, to do my life story, whether in solo show or in book form, you really get to kind of look back at it all and everything. And I really see now how, and a lot of people do this. It's like the chaos died down at home. And so I had to go out looking for chaos. Yes. And that was exactly what I wanted to ask you about because you, you, you, you know, you. you won, you won a person, gets so attuned to managing chaos.

Yes. And it becomes, and I don't mean rewarding like, I did it, but I do mean like there is a reward. Sure. There is this kind of chemical brain reward, like I've handled it, I've handled it, I've handled it, and it gives you purpose. It gives you an intense purpose. If I can change this person, I've created some meaning in my life. Yeah.

I have value. Yes. I can be of service, right? So all of a sudden, it's like people who keep going in through like crazy relationships. Absolutely. They're like they only understand that the relationship is meaningful if there's just madness at all times. And just somebody who's nice to you and shows up and fucking says, hey, do you want to get a pizza? You know what I mean?

Like, what's that? That's not interesting. And it usually is just a replication of the inner life of the family system. It really is. And so that's what I did is I went out and found the craziest kids to hang out with and do drugs with and the craziest boys who, you know, weren't really. there for me and it was all available to you in the same way that your parents hadn't been available to you. Yeah. Emotionally unavailable. I'm going to chase, chase, chase, chase and I'm fix, fix, you know, and they were all exciting and charismatic and, you know, that stuff that my dad had,

you know, funny, smart, charismatic, you know, that guy. And unavailable. And unavailable. Totally. I remember those days. Me too. Me too. I'm lucky. I've been in a great marriage for 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. Through my, through my teens and 20s, that's was my MO was like, let's find the craziest boy in the room. Right. And, you know, it was so funny. I remember with my second, with my first husband in my 20s, I ended up going to Al-Anon and stuff like that.

And I remember someone talking about, like, how the codependent works. This is how the codependent person works, the rescuer. They walk into a room, and there are going to be 500 people in that room. And what they will do, they will scan the room, and somehow they will find the sickest motherfucker in the room and be completely sexually attracted to that. Right, right. I have to have that.

Drawn towards them, right? Yeah, like gravitational pull of the sun drawn. Like laser beams. Yes, exactly. And when I heard that, I was like, oh, fuck, yeah. Okay, that's it. That's totally it. It was interesting because he said people said to you things like, which I find so naive,

although maybe we're getting more sophisticated in the way that we understand addiction and experience. Hopefully. But people sing to you, well, you saw so many terrible things happened to your parents. How could you do drugs? I mean, I don't, like, that person, is that Ned Flanders asking that question? Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Alex P. Keaton? Exactly.

How could you do drugs when you saw how bad it was? Like, shut up. And it's like, Jean, I don't have any genetics of it. No, no, no. I'm not an addictive bone in my body. Genetically predisposed to it, culturally predisposed to it. That's all I saw around me. Yeah.

Like, you know, it's crazy to me. I mean, I know from reading a little bit about you that you, that you had the your own, you know, you went through your own experience with addiction. Right. But if I hadn't read that, that would have been the very next thing I asked you was, of course you would have gone through that on your own. Of course that would have been the next thing that happened to you. And, you know, I mean, without putting to find a point on it, like, I, be, people, again, people always want to do the thing where they're like, well, you just need to, like, be more disciplined. Yes. But, like, I really do believe, and I'm not a scientist,

and this is not scientific. I'm not, I'm not, this is, I've not, this. You may play a scientist someday. Someday. I have and I'm very persuasive. But this is not a statistically significant sample that I'm reaching from. It's my own experience. I have tried things and then I have not done them again. Do you know what I mean?

I've been able, like it just wasn't that. Right. People say you do Coke once. You're going to do it. No, I tried it. It was interesting. You're one of those lucky people. I can't afford that shit. My husband was like that too.

Yeah. I'm like, really? You had a half a gram in your house for a month? Just sat like in the freezer. You're pushing it aside constantly for peas. Like, no, not even, and then you're like, oh, oh, I guess there is coke in there. You know, like that, right? And to an attic, they're like, what?

Impossible. Look at it. I could see it through the door of the fridge with my x-ray cocaine vision. So I just think some people are born with this set of genetic triggers, and some people aren't. And the people that aren't are so blind when they say, something like, can't you just stop? Yeah, can't you just walk away? Yeah, you know, just put it down.

Yeah. It would be so nice. You know what I mean? Yeah. Just say no. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I party occasionally. I've done Coke. It's no big deal. Don't fuck yourself. That's just not even a real thing you're saying. Exactly. You know what I mean? Like, it's not even, things are coming out of your mouth that make no sense. Yeah.

When you started experimenting, you know, at an age that I think is probably right about the time when kids start experimenting. Yeah. People say, oh, that's early. I don't think, I don't know, my experience. I grew up in San Francisco. Yeah. It was not early. I mean, maybe these days, I think kids are a little more sheltered and parents are helicoptersing a lot more around kids.

They're more aware. I think parents back then would be like, of course my parenting. Yeah. I just had parents who just were like, there was just no rules. Right. I grew up on West Side of L.A., you know. Well, they couldn't concentrate on you. In Hollywood-ish circumstances.

Right, right. You know, don't, don't die. Who's a birthright to do Coke at 15? Have fun at school. And please don't die. That's all we ask. Exactly. Yeah.

And then also, this is. a place where kids have many more resources. Oh, yeah. We had money and cars and no rules. Right. And none of us were made. None of us had to work. Right. No parent was saying you have to get a job. Right. Right. We were very privileged living the white privileged Hollywood life. Man, less than zero. Yeah. And pretty much when that book came out, it was like, yeah, except for the murder part. Right. Pretty much 100% there. Did you, when was it in your own life that you had a sense that

Maybe it was too much? Yeah. You know, I was lucky, and maybe this is what my parents gave me. But I always had like a governor inside me somewhere. Like I always had a not there. Like never did heroin. Not going to do that. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Did you see that movie, Christian F? Do you remember that movie? You're a little older than me, but it came out like when I was a kid and it was a movie about a girl who became a heroin addict. And I was like, well, I'm not doing that one. I mean, I just remember like so vividly. Like, it was. It was like a German art house film.

It wasn't like a hey kids, drugs are bad. It was like a really well-done movie. And I was like, that seems really bad. Yeah, that's nothing. That doesn't look fun. Yeah, apparently psychedelic's not a problem. But the heroin, too far, too far. Yeah, like, you know, I had weird lines I drew.

So no heroin, no valium, because my mom had been addicted to it. For some reason, pills didn't really attract me. I took a little speed in high school to get through finals and stuff. Pills don't seem fun. Pills don't seem like a fun drug. Although quayludes, back in the day, the quailudes were fun. I have to tell you people, I'm very sorry we don't have Kualooleu still, because you're missing out.

I love your honesty. Like, that was awesome. There was a good time. There was nothing wrong about the Kualo. You wouldn't want to be driving a car, but if you want to be laughing and fucking, it was perfect. Who, I ask you, Kelly Carlin, doesn't want to be laughing and fine. Nobody.

Nobody. This is the perfect experience of life. I guess that's why ecstasy is so popular now. Yeah, probably. And that's something I've never done. kind of like after that came in once I was kind of sober and all that stuff. But, uh, but yeah, so I did, so I didn't do heroin, wouldn't do, uh, the, most of the pills. It wouldn't do volume. Mm-hmm. Uh, would not do acid because I did watch my dad go through a horrific acid

trip once, but I did do mushrooms. Right, right. You know, these parsing lines are always, we have, we have, we love, we make logic where it do, where it, this is me in control. It fits our plan. Yes. But I'm fine. I'm not an addict because I don't do acid. Yeah, and I'm lucky alcohol was never really attractive to me. I mean, like I yet have a beer at parties and stuff like that, but I hated the feeling of being hung over and really like, and I never wanted to seem out of control. Yes.

My mother wasn't out of control drunk, fall down, sloppy drunk. No, no, no, no, no. Never going to happen here. That's not attractive. Not going to happen. So stayed away from that. But I was lucky I did have a bit of something inside me that would say, okay, that's, we're not going there.

But then at 18 I met a gentleman who was older than me who was doing a lot of coke. And that's a drug that really snapped into my addiction thing. And he was ADHD, kind of undiagnosed back in those days. And with people who have that kind of stuff, they give them speed in order to slow them down. The chemicals do the reverse thing on the brain. So he could do coke and he could eat and sleep and function on it. Whereas I would do coke and there was no eating, there was no sleeping. And after three days there was certainly no functioning.

And so I got into a really, I walked pretty far into it with him. And it ended up just creating a whole set of problems for me. I think I probably had a lot of anxiety issues before that, but it ended up creating a panic attack disorder in me that just, fed and just took over my life for about 10 years. Really? Yeah. Yeah. If it's not too difficult to talk about, how did that manifest? Like, what did that mean for your life, having that? Well, what happens with it is, if anyone's out there, understands this. If you, have you ever

had a panic attack? I have, not like an extreme one, but I have had what, I think... So you think you're dying. Yeah, you're having, like, your heart is racing. Your heart is racing. You can't really get a breath, but there's this incredible sense of doom. like you are dying. I used to say to people, you know, God himself could come down and say, you know what? You're having a panic attack.

And you would say, fuck you, I'm dying. I mean, that's how much you feel like you're dying. And what happens with it is wherever you have one of these, the brain, the mind, tries to make sense of it and says, well, let's not do that again.

So where were we when that happened? Right. And you start to associate place and time and all sorts of things with it that might not have anything to do with it. And I started associated being in my car with having panic attacks. And then what would happen is, because the first one I had was in a car. I wasn't driving, but it was in a car. And then I just started feeling very unsafe. And then I would be in a car and I would have a panic attack

driving, which is a terrifying moment. And you're pulling over and you don't even know what to do because you don't know what to do. There's like, oh, this adrenaline pumping through your body. And so then it was like, oh, well, I can't really drive anymore because that makes that happen, but I do have to drive to certain places to function sort of and look like a functioning adult because I wasn't telling a lot of people that this was going on in my life because I didn't want to like tell to my parents, oh, I really fucked up being with this guy who's, you know, crazy. Right, and the co-keed and now I feel like I'm going crazy too, because I imagine a big part of this is you start to feel like you're going crazy. You totally feel like you're going crazy because you kind of are. You kind of are going

crazy. And so my life just got smaller and smaller and smaller. And then I would have like, I could go to my mom's house. I could go to the shrink's house. I could go to the market. But I had only certain roads I could drive on. I mean, this is where the crazy part comes in. It's like, oh, I can drive up 26th Street, but I can't drive up Bundy, you know, for some reason. Very, you know. Bundy is a terrifying street. I don't blame you. It's big and there's a lot of cars on it. It's very trafficking. It's just really traffic. I don't want to drive up Bundy now. Yes, yes. And that whole feeling of being trapped too in traffic was on. So it, it, that came to visit me and it became a big kind of part of the landscape of my life in my 20s and really

shrunk my life down. And, but also got me off of cocaine because it was like, oh, this shit's triggering my heart racing. Right. Like it's already racing when I'm having these attacks. I imagine having cocaine is not going to help. No, does not help at all, you know. And nor does that thing where you've been up for two days and it's five, am and the birds are chirping and you look out your levelers and people are like dressed and going to work and taking their kids to school and you're like I have no life I hate myself you know that that creates a lot of anxiety too you know so and so I did have this rational reasonable part of myself even though I was having these panic attacks that was like you know we need to not do the cocaine anymore and so I ended up walking away from it before my husband at that time ended up walking away from it and And so how long had you been doing it seriously? I really walked away. We got married in 85 and I was, I would walk away for months at a time and then it would

lower me back in for a few weeks and then I would walk away for six months and it would lower me back in. So it was a lot of that dancing back and forth and stuff. But then by like 87, 88, I was. done, completely done, and basically told my husband that if he wasn't done, I was leaving. And he ended up going to rehab, thankfully. But yeah, and I ended up, and this whole time, like, I didn't even, I mean, this is before it kind of all started before I met him. But at, you know, at 18, I went, I was enrolled to go to UCLA, and I show up my first week. And I think I probably had a panic attack

that week. Because I went to Crossroads, which is a very small high school. I have 32 people in my graduating class. Wow, that is small. And I show up at UCLA. And, There's like 40,000 people on campus. Another place I don't want to go. Yeah. Even now. It's very, very... Massive.

Populated and massive. And my first week there, I think I sat in a lecture. There was 300 people and I'm thinking, this is about the size of my high school. Right. And I got overwhelmed and I ended up dropping out. So at 25, when I got sober and everything, I went back to school. And I knew ultimately that that had to be my escape route from my husband. I mean, my relationship with my husband is very complicated.

And I write about it. in my book, but he was also very possessive and controlling. He was older than you. He was 11 years older than me. He was a gun freak. Oh, my God. He was full of chaos. He was chaos personified.

He was the embodiment of everything that you had experienced growing up. The externalization of all of my chaos that I wanted to wrangle and then finally realized, oh, I can't. Right. And it's not my job. Yeah. Like, it's too big. Like I finally was like, oh, I get it now.

It's not my job. It really is his. And that was a huge turning point in my life when I figured that. I'm like, oh, I see. I'm not in charge of other people. Yes. And like not only at that, but I have got to like make some boundaries for myself. Yeah.

So that I can care for myself. Like, and I knew I was full of creativity and talent. And, you know, I mean, I wanted to be Lily Tomlin and Carol Burnett. I mean, that's who I wanted to be. And I had done nothing about those dreams because I was in a house snorting coke or, you know, stuck with a panic attack. And I dabbled a little bit in some things. and, you know, and got to act

and a pilot my dad did for HBO and had a great time and was really great at it, but hated myself. I mean, like, felt so unqualified and undeserving for it all, which, you know. That feeling never goes away. Yeah. I know, trust me.

But it was like 25, Kelly, time to get your fucking shit together. Yeah. You know, and it was just that part of me that was like, you know, come on. Yeah. And, you know, you've got an amazing life. And a lot of potency.

potential and opportunity, and you're pissing it away doing this game, you know, seven years later after meeting this guy. Right. So, yeah, it was a light at the end of the tunnel for me, you know, just marching forward to save myself. And there is that thing with addiction where that becomes your job, right? Oh, yeah. That's all your energy is getting it and doing it. Oh, yeah, yo, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, it is. It becomes a full-time job. It really does. Yeah, there isn't. Yeah. You had this vision for yourself, this creative vision for yourself, and I, you know, I always wonder about when you are the child of someone.

Yeah. And I don't, I'm going to not say famous because I mean like, I wonder if you were the daughter of a neurosurgeon or the daughter of a great author, whatever it is. How much of your, what's the right question for this, how much of their influence on you, drives your desire to do this, but also was there some aspect of who your father was that might have kept you from pursuing it? Yeah. You know what I mean? Oh yeah, for sure. I think sometimes

because people go into the company business in every walk of life. Exactly. Do you know what I mean? For sure. It's not like my dad was a road salesman. Yeah. You're kind of fall into Hollywood because of your dad. Yeah. And you know, my father's parents and my mother too, for my father's parents, both had an incredible gift to the gab. I mean, we're Irish, both sides of my family. We're communicators. It's what we do.

I was verbal, very young, and was reading by the time I was four. I mean, you know, it's clearly this is part of my hardwiring also. And so it was really a double-edged sword for me. Part of it was, yeah, making people laugh was wonderful, and joyous, making my dad laugh was fantastic, you know. I can imagine that would feel really great. Yeah, it feels really great. As you know, you hang out with comics,

and you make a room full of comics laugh. You just like, oh, yeah. Exactly, the toughest audience in the world. Yeah, it's fantastic. But, you know, and I never saw what my dad did. I never thought to myself, oh, I want to do stand-up comedy. There wasn't a lot of female stand-ups around back there. Phyllis Diller and Joan Rivers and moms Mabley.

I mean, you know, that was about it, pretty much. But, you know, there was Carol Burnett and Lucille Ball and Lily Tomlin and laugh. in and those people. And then during high school, of course, there was SNL and SCTV and all that stuff. And that was always more like, like, oh, I'd like to play characters and do that kind of thing. But what happened to me was in high school, I was never part of the drama department or theater department. I never felt qualified for any of that. I always, there was some part of me that just was like, I'll never be good enough. I'll never be good enough. And now I understand it.

I mean, I've really done a lot of therapy around this, but there is something about when I, I mean, I had an experience backstage where my dad was at Carnegie Hall in 1972, and, you know, thousands of people are chanting his name. And when he goes out on the stage, there's this roar, rock and roll roar happening. And I just put in my head that if that doesn't happen, then it's failure. Right. And so I would dabble in things and try some things, but didn't understand and was never, no one ever explained to me that to learn your craft, you have to fail 10,000 times.

Constant sustained failure. Yes. And I had no tolerance for failure. I was a perfectionist. I wanted to be seen as a good girl. I wanted to have a pristine reputation, especially when it came to my father. I wanted to be perfect. And so any, I could, I didn't even know how to tolerate.

tolerate failure. Could not do it. So in my 20s... You never saw him fail. No. By the time you were aware of what he was doing, you were just seeing... Even though now I know he did, because I've actually heard some of his interviews where he talks about it and actually read his posthumous memoir and was like, oh, look, he had all

these doubts and all these failures at certain places. But yeah, in my mind, rocket ship. Right. He just pointed a direction and he went there. And he did. he went from like successful to really successful to legend. Yeah. You know?

And so for me, it's like, oh, it's just this straight arrow that goes up. I didn't, you know, and like around acting, like, you know, I said this Danny Kaye plan that he had as a kid. He wanted to be a comedic actor. In the 60s, he tried acting, failed at it and realized he had to stick with stand-up. And luckily he was really good at it. And it was truly his art form, I believe. But he had failed at that.

And he couldn't tolerate the failure around that either. I mean, he was a perfectionist. I was literally, if you hadn't said it, I would have been just listening to you talk about him, that he was OCD, that he was constantly organizing, and the precision with which he wrote. And yes, look at his work. I mean, yeah, it's just so, so precise in a way that really,

I mean, every comedian knows about how, what a precise writer he was. And how he was a writer first. Yes. And he would perfect it on the page and then perfected on the stage through performance, you know, really working out the timing and the language and stuff like that.

But yes. Perfectionist. Right. So that's hovering there. You know, and even if my dad, and my dad always said to me, I unconditionally love you, you're fantastic, you're talented, you can do whatever you want. But in my, I had like internalized his perfectionist voice in me, which was like, this is not going to be good enough.

You can't do this. And so failure really terrified me really until about 10 years ago. Wow. When I finally started figuring out that, oh, if I really want to do something, I need And learning how to survive it. The minute you fail, like the walls don't cave in on you. Yes. And people still unconditionally love you.

Yes. And you learn things. Yeah, and you grow and you pivot constantly. And you get tough. And you get resilient. Yes. Resilient. And I don't know if you've had this experience as a performer, but like I, you know, early on as a baby comic, like, you know, first when I was bomb like it was painful.

And then I was like, God, nobody left. It would be so funny to me when I would have a sad. It was so fucking silent. Like I would just be laughing and stare at me about how badly did I go. Oh my God. I got this set a fucking out of washing, at a laundromat. And I couldn't even get the fucking dryers to make noise. Like I just, it was so funny to me.

And that was what carried me through. You know, it's just, and it's never enjoyable, but it, you only learn. Yes. When you're failing. When you're winning, you're just like, follow that motherfucker. You throw the mic down. Yeah. Growth in that.

Yeah. And you really don't even know. when you are successful at it or you're in the flow, most likely it's because there's so many things coming together in the moment that you're really not in charge of the moment when that success flow moment happens because it's really a surrender and a letting go ultimately in that moment. But, yeah, I mean, I've been lucky doing this solo show

over the last four years. I had no state, I mean, I had very little stage time. I was doing like 10-minute personal essays around town. Like, that was it. And that was like once every other month. Right, right, right, right, right. Which, by the way, it had to be anxiety producing every single time because you were never kind of getting to the point where it felt casual to you.

Right, exactly. And then, you know, it started to, like, started to be able to breathe on stage, but it's usually those personal essay things you're reading. Yeah, you don't have to make eye contact too much. And then I started to know the rooms and the people, and I started becoming part of community, and that helps too. But when I started my solo show, and it's a 90-minute show, and it's fully memorized, and there's video,

and it's a lot of cues and everything and there's no ad-libbing or anything. And the first year I did it, I have no memory of being on stage. I don't even think I was anywhere near my body. I had no concept that I was breathing or anything. But when moments would happen where I would go up on a line,

that was always my biggest fear is, you know, not knowing my lines. And I would go up on something or I would like blank something. it's happened a few times, blank on stage. And it was so amazing to learn that I would like go, oh, okay, so where am I? And I would like to start talking to the audience. I was in the 80s.

So if I'm in the 80s and I went, oh, yeah, I know where I am. And of course, everyone thinks it's like the most lovely human moment ever. They're all so happy this happened. You know, and I like, and that happened a couple times. It was like, oh, oh, the earth didn't open and I didn't fall through an abyss somewhere. And then as I got more and more stage time, learn to breathe on stage, learn to think on stage, learn to play with comedic timing now.

And to not fear silence. Oh, yeah, in my show, I don't fear silence because I make people cry. So I love a really tuned room. I mean, when I know there's a joke and they should be laughing, that's a moment where you're like, oh, really, you're not laughing at that tonight? Sometimes they're listening.

I get that. But then when I got a chance last February to do a five-week run of the show at the Falcon Theater here in Toluca Lake, and I did 25 shows in five weeks. And it was exhausting and terrifying and very hard, but also, oh, my God, I got to learn to live on stage. And so I, you know, it's a thing where you want to, like when they always say, if you could write a letter to your 15-year-old self, man, if I could, it would be Kelly, find every opportunity to fall hard on your face. with mud and shit and everything

because, you know, it just, it shows you your humanity, your resilience, and you learn where your power is from those experiences, you know? And the fear of, and people know, because this is like such a big theme on the show and I wrote a whole book about it, that the fear of failure keeps you from living fully. Yes.

It just keeps you inside, looking out your levelers at other people. Yes. I mean, you know, it's, and so, you know, and I've said this a million times when people come up to me, they're like, well, I want to be a writer, but I'm afraid I'm a failure. I want to be a comic. I'm afraid I'm afraid I'm failing. I'm like, you are. You are going to fail. Like, let's all just stipulate to that right now. It's not going to go your way. It is not going to go your way hundreds of times in a row, and then it will. Yeah. You know what I mean? If you stick with it and you're passionate and you

commit to it, it will eventually go your way. But just be ready for to suck and for everything to suck. Yeah. And like embrace it. And like you said, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's It's really the only moment where you're getting a feedback from the audience or the environment in some way where then you can adjust, which means not sacrificing your vision or your art or something. But if you're not communicating something that's having, you're not having the impact you want to be having, you've got to change your communication. It's just as simple as that. And so it's about learning how to do that, you know? And about 10 years ago, I started working with someone who, a life coach who was like, his, motto was, you know, fail big.

Yeah, go crazy. Yeah, like fail as big as possible because your learning is going to be as big as possible in that moment. That's good. Yeah. I like that a lot. Yeah, it's juicy. Yeah, it is. It's like savory, right? Yeah. Because, I mean, again, it's like those inhibiting, like, whatever that

fantasy, not fantasy, but like that dreaded fantasy, right? That hyper fear, right? Yours was going up on a line. Then that happened and you didn't die. You know what I mean? And you're like, okay. I've slain that, That's never going to be frightening for me again. And you have to go as big as possible in order to slay your biggest dragons.

You know what I mean? In order to encounter them and then realize that they don't have any power over you. Absolutely. And, you know, if you really believe you just have one precious life. God, you got to go. You just got to fucking do it. Yeah. You got to go big.

You got to just put it out there and let the chips fall where they may, you know, and either celebrate or, you know, you're going to learn or celebrate or both, all of that, you know, celebrate the failure, celebrate the learning, whatever it is, celebrate the wins also. But, you know, at some point, it's like, oh, yeah, I just, I just got to go for it. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I read a few things, and I want to ask you about them because, you know, people's

perception of your dad was, I think, that he was like, at least, no, wait, let me ask, people. me, my perception of your dad, okay? I know, I was like putting it off on other people. Let me not be a pussy here. Is that your dad was like really, like, mentally tough and emotionally tough. Like, he just, he had, he seemed to me to have a toughness to him. And I don't mean unkind. I just mean Teflon, like, just kind of unassailable.

And so it was interesting to me to read that he was uncomfortable with some of your autobiographical work. Yeah. Was it the show? Was it your book? What was it that he had? It was my very first show in 99. My mom died in 97 of liver cancer. And when she died, you know, I was out of the crazy marriage and I was with my husband now. But I was still discovering who I was. But when she died, it was like that thing of like shit to get off the pot. Like there is really one only precious life. Like I get it now. And if I want to, and Spalding Gray was a huge, huge influence in my life.

And so I knew I wanted to do autobiographical work. And I knew I had a great survivor story to tell because I had survived the chaos and the panic and all that. And I'd found my way. And I'd had this incredible, my mom's death handed me an incredible spiritual awakening is what happened around it. Did it feel, please don't forget what you were going to say, but did your mom's death feel this is going to sound crass? Inevitable to you? No. I mean, not in the grand scheme of inevitability because everybody's parents not.

is inevitable. But had you lived with the fear of her dying for such a long time as a child that when it happened, it was something that you expected? It was very interesting what happened because, yes, terrified from very young age that mommy was going to be dying any moment because she kept trying to do that. Right. And then she'd gotten breast cancer when I was in my 20s, survived that, no problem. So I really thought that when she died, that my whole world would crumble. She and I were very close. And I really thought like UCLA psych ward straight jacket drugs. Like I thought that. And what happened was the complete opposite. This incredible infusion of strength and perspective entered my being days after she died. And like a calmness like I've never had before.

and it's such a surreal experience losing a parent because that thing, that conversation, I mean, even if you've lost a grandparent or even a friend or whatever, but something about a parent, and I think it is because we kind of do fear our parents dying so much and then it happens

that it was, it's like, oh, this thing called death is not an idea. It really happens. And it landed on me in so, a profound way. And it feels like there is a veil that gets ripped open between here and over there. And I don't even believe in over there. I don't even know what that means. But there is this veil that is lifted. And you don't feel like you're living in the living anymore because of this death has visited you. And that lasted for about a good year and a half, two years for me where I really felt

this strange, numinous experience in my life that I was living beyond the veil and yet I was in life and yet I was beyond it and it gave me access to a lot of personal power and strength

and which led me to like oh I've been hiding in my house for all these years with perfectionism and not sharing these parts of me that I want to share as an artist and that's when I decided all right I'm just going to I'm going to write my life story down

and I'm going to like figure out a way to do what Julia Sweeney does and Spalding Gray and Sandra Singlo and all these people in L.A. too, that had really inspired me and had really, like, made me feel safe and human because they put their insanity up on a stage. And they put their chaos up there and said, this is what I've done and this is what I've lived through. And so I did a show called Driven to Distraction, which was, my thesis was, there's a few things that have been distracting me from my real self my whole life. And then my mother died and here it was. So it was really kind of a show

about the spiritual awakening around my mother and the five weeks before she died. But then I put in the stories of a couple of chaos stories from my parents, my teenage years, my 20s, and talked about it

and kind of tied it all up. Now, I wrote this thing and I had my therapist vetted and I had all my friends vet it because I'm like, hey, I don't want a pity party. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm taking full responsibility

for my chaos and all of that. And I sent the script to my dad And part of it in the script was that when my mom got sick with the liver cancer, my dad had to go on the road. And so it was like a replication of being seven years old again and my mother's alcoholism and I'm at home stuck taking care of my mother and my dad's kind of gets off scot-free and gets to go on the road. Although that's not quite the way the world, the way it really is, but that's the way it felt to my inner little girl. and I, being the good girl and being at the time, was like, well, of course, Dad, you're going on the road because they had some IRS issues, some financial contract, blah, blah, blah.

Dad did have to go on the road. But I was like, but mom's really dying, and isn't this a chance where we really don't go on the road finally at this? And I think if I said those words to my dad, like, you can't leave, he would have stayed home. But I was the good girl, and I'm going to just swallow my feelings and pretend, but I had a lot of anger and a lot of resentment about that. Didn't share it until I wrote this show where I talk,

I kind of do it in journal entries and I talk about it. So I send the script to my dad and I don't really hear anything from him. And of course, he's the one who's the ultimate judge in my head. And I'm like, oh, fuck. Like I'm not getting the feedback. Call him finally. I'm like, so, dad, have you read the script? He's like, yeah, we need to talk at your therapy.

therapist's office. At your therapist. And under supervision. We need to have a supervised conversation. You're going to fall apart. So we better have your therapist on call. And I'm like, I've never done anything my entire life to, to, to individuate myself from my father emotionally. I've only buried my feelings in order to make our relationship perfect. And, you know, what ended up happening was he said, you know, he felt betrayed by it. And what he felt betrayed was, was that I was willing to tell a room full of fucking strangers about my discomfort about my dad going on the road,

but I hadn't had this personal conversation with him yet. Right, right. Fair. Totally fair point, dad. Right. And yet, at the same time, if you are familiar with my dad's work, he doesn't talk about his life. No, it's so interesting

because as you were saying that, I was scanning everything I've ever heard him say. Yeah. Because comedians typically mind the show, shit out of our lives. And nothing is personal. Right. And our loved ones are like, what the fuck? That just happened last night, you prick. It would have been nice if you said something. And that's the thing about most comics, and that's kind of like where I think, you know, I feel like I'm more like Richard Pryor that I'm like willing to go out on stage and like work shit out there, you know, in front of a

room full of strangers and get it off my chest. But going one on one with someone way too intimate. Can't do that. Because the thing about working something out on stage is that because you're on stage, there is this otherness. There is a magical otherness. Yes. Of course it's personal. Of course it's real. Of course it's true.

But it's also being performed. Yes. And so you're presenting it. You're presenting it. So it's like it's in front of you. You know what I mean? There's like an astraly projected you. Yes.

Absolutely. It's like you know, you're talking about your husband, but he's your husband in quotation marks. Absolutely. And even writing a memoir, as you know, you wrote a book. I mean, even that eye in the book, is slightly adjacent to yourself. I mean, even though everything is raw and real

and all of that. And truthful, sure. And completely truthful, yes. But it's, everything is a construction ultimately. So, yeah, so, yeah, dad was, but he blessed his heart, said to me, you know, I'm an artist and you're an artist

and I would never ask you to change a single word of it, but I can't go. I can't sit in the audience and watch this. It's too painful. Okay. And that's what's so interesting to me. me because that was what I was saying, thinking about him as being just so, like, just like, titanium.

My idea of him is that he's just like bulletproof. Well, and because his only regret in life was what happened to me during those chaotic drug years. Right. You know, like he really got that there was some damage done. Right. And that it slowed my progress as an adult on some level, you know, and luckily, good, good, DNA, you know, basically, you know, felt the love anyway, made it through.

but he did. He felt bad that I had so much on my little shoulders at such a young age. He couldn't do it. And he only went, came to one personal essay show and watched me do one essay once. He only saw me perform once. And so for him, it was just, it was too much. You know, he, he wasn't Richard Pryor. Right. He, he, he, his perfectionism, I think, created for him, I mean, and this is me psychoanalyzing him after he's gone, but I do have a a master's in psychology. And I have thought about it a little bit. But, you know, his reputation was important to him.

And there was something about, he could deal with like general human fallibility or even the observational humor fallibility. And he loved talking about the fallibility of the species. I mean, that was his real thing that he was so good at. But his own personal fallibility was harder for him, you know. And it might have been generation. too. I mean, you know, although he was of the generation that created the divulgent comedy. I mean, he was of the generation who created personal comedy prior and, well, you know,

he helps you, the Voldemort of comedy, Bill Cosby. But, you know what I mean? There's a man who completely only mind his complete life for his material. Absolutely. Exactly. And no one had been doing that prior to that moment. That is very true. Bruce and Pryor and Cosby. There was a permission that happened. for sure where suddenly we could talk about anything.

Right. But dad's radar just always went that way. He was an observer, right? He was a critical observer. Even though he was a very soulful man. And to your point about him, the Teflon thing, did you ever get a chance to meet him ever? You know, what's so funny is that I've also been racking my brain about that

because I feel like I've met almost everybody. Some of the times the meetings were so fleeting. I can't be like, you know, I mean, I met Richard prior, like, in a comedy club, but he was in a wheelchair at the point. I never really got to have an interaction with him. Right. But I don't think I ever met your dad. He used to work out a lot, I feel like, before he passed away in the Bay Area.

He would talk about him coming in up there. He actually worked out in the Comedy Magic Club down in Hermosa Beach. He worked out a lot down there. And the comedy store. But the thing that people have had encounters with him comics and non-comics, too, discovered about my dad was that he was extremely present. extremely generous with his time to the point where after he died

I had no idea that he would call like open mic comics that he would meet like college journalist kids are like yeah I'm doing open mics too and he'd be like hey give me your email and he would call them six months later like how you're open mics going how's the material going. Jeez that's awesome. Yeah and he was also a very sentimental man he kept everything from his life. I have these archives

right now people if you're in L.A., go down to the Grammy Museum there's an exhibit down there that I picked some stuff. Cool. It's not a lot, but it's some of the George Carlin stuff. He kept everything.

And he also was so sentimental. After my mom died in 97, about a year and a half later, he met someone else, a woman named Sally Wade. He wrote her a love note every single day. They were together for 10 years.

Wow. Every single day. I have like old calendars of his from like he'd have like his road trips and everything. And then you would see notes like Kelly's first day in her first half.

house. Stuff that you thought he probably wasn't even noticing about you. Yeah, I mean, but, but, you know, but also knowing that I knew he was that man, I knew he was the most generous sentimental of spirit man. And that person on stage, that especially like those, the last 15 years of him, that sharp critical eye, George Carlin, was his stage persona. Yeah. You know, and yes, he had that in him, obviously.

That's who he was also. But if you recall, he would go into something and be really aimed. angry and rageful and really kicking our ass as a species and then turn around and do fart jokes for 10 minutes too. You know, so he never let go of the goofy side, you know. But he had an enormous heart. That's so lovely here. And that's why he had so much difficulty listening to talk about that part of his life. Yes, and why our family in general, I think we were so cared so much about each other that we took care of each other's feelings so much.

that we weren't learning even how to survive those conversations, you know? I mean, it's kind of like that failure talk. It's like if you can learn to have big, important conversations with your loved ones, your life will change. There's a freedom that happens from that. Because you're not carrying around this carefulness and this preciousness. And protecting them from the truth in a way that really isn't protecting them at all. Right.

And that maybe they don't even want to be protected from. Right. Who knows? Yeah. You know? Yeah. Oh, you're so interesting to talk to, Kelly. Come on.

And we're going to have to do self-inflicted wounds. You have this life now that is filled with these creative pursuits that you always envisioned for yourself. Still want to do the sketch comedy. Haven't done that yet. But you know what's interesting is like in a lot of ways you had to figure out what kind of an artist you were. And I'm what kind of artist you wanted to be. Oh, honey, you just said the last. last line of my solo show. Really? Yeah. Oh, I'm like, I'm psychic. Yeah. But you know what I mean?

Yeah, you have to give up on ideas. What I say, you have to give up on the, because my dad had to give up on his Danny Kay idea in order to become who he was meant to be. Yeah. And that is so true. Yeah. And you have this idea in your head when you're young. Yes. Because you don't fully know yourself. No. And you just see examples of things out in the world that you want to move towards. Exactly. Yeah. And then you have to find this way to break through whatever your inhibitions are and inhabit who you really are. And that just takes time.

Yeah, and when my dad died, I mean, it was such a weird thing. A, I didn't know any, a bunch of comedians came into my life. I didn't, we didn't hang out with comedians. My dad was a loner, he was a writer. There was not these Hollywood parties going on my house. My dad was basically an introvert on many, many levels because he was a writer.

He was a lone writer guy. But when... That also makes sense that he would then transform into this version of himself on stage. He loved getting their approval of the audience through the other stuff too, but he also loved his alone time writing. But when my dad died, one of the things that kind of just intuitively came to me was, I just want to say yes to everything.

I just want to try everything on and see where it takes me. Because these ideas we have of ourselves are too small for ourselves, and we don't really find our own path. And I just started saying yes to things. And it's, you know, seven years later, it's led me to some really interesting cool shit, you know, and I'm really grateful for that. Yeah. Yeah. That makes me happy. Yeah. Cool. So before we do stuff with the wounds, I guess I wanted to ask you a question that is it, is another, it's a crazy question. And I'm going to sound naive when I ask it. So I have not. I have not. lost either of my parents yet. My husband has lost both in different ways. Like his father just

dropped and his mom died from an extended illness. Wow. Both impossible situations. Nothing's better. Neither one's better. And sometimes we think about it. We're like, was it better to just have it be quick and he didn't suffer? Was it better to get to say goodbye to this person and tell him you? I mean, who knows? Who knows? Loss is a individual last act of life. Sophie's choice. Yeah. And there's no way none of us are getting out of her of life. Yeah. We're all going to have to live through it. I wonder, you know, you talked about the way that you thought your mom's death would affect you and how it actually affected you. What was their experience with losing your dad other than this thing of saying yes and embracing everything? Did losing your mom first put you in a different head space?

I did feel I had a little experience around it, at least. I knew the grief territory, but I knew it was going to be a very different kind of grief. Being a woman losing your mother, very different than losing your father. And then I think the thing that I wasn't prepared for with my dad was that it was a public event. Yes, and maybe much larger scale than you were. Yeah, that I didn't realize. I was in Hawaii when my dad died. I was not by my dad's side when he died.

And I'm glad of that because I was by my mom's side. And I really didn't need to be there. It's not fun sometimes. It's not like the movies with candles and Enya playing. and some breeze wiping slowly through the... Sometimes it doesn't like to begin to work that way. Gossipes. But I was in the airport trying to get home

and walking around avoiding televisions because I didn't want to see the ticker underneath CNN because I knew it would be there. And that's when it hit me, oh, this isn't my... I don't get to have this experience alone. I don't get to have a private experience. Now, I could have.

I mean, I, it is, there is a choice in there on some level. But being the only child and being a person who I felt wanted to make sure that my dad was, his legacy was taken care of in a certain way. And he, I just knew that there was something I was going to step in, I just knew instantly that I was going to have to step forward into a role. And, and it was okay because it kept me busy for a few years. It really did. And plus, it really lifted me up. having the comics and the comedy world and the fans come to me, it kept my head above water.

I don't know if I would have done okay without that. I think it would have been really hard for me. And what's really interesting now is having now written this book, which I've been trying to write for 10 years, and I talked to my dad about it when he's like, and I'll put it away and all that kind of stuff. But having finally written this and something that I've been working on for more than 10 years,

like 15 years when I started writing my stories, I feel like I'm done with something here. And I'm done. I mean, I'll always be the protector of my dad's legacy and everything like that. But I'm done needing to have the conversation, you know, now. And now I get to go and play in a much bigger, different way. So, and I feel like I get my private relationship with my dad back.

I hear exactly what you're saying. It's, you've processed it all the way through. Yeah. And I watch. through the fire. I didn't walk around it. I didn't avoid it. I mean, Paul Prevends is my director of my show and he's like, part of our conversation was, what do you really want to do this? Because, and I said, yeah, I feel like I need to walk through this daughter of blah, blah, blah thing to really know that when I've walked through it, I really can just let it go. And I know I've done the work around it. And that's where I'm at almost right now. I mean, I'm still talking about it. I'm obviously promoting my book right now and stuff like that.

and still be doing my solo show a little bit next year. But internally, I feel like I get to have a relationship with my dad finally. Right. Yeah. And so I'm excited about that. Yeah. You know. Okay.

It's time for self-inflicted mood. Okay. So, I mean, I have a couple of stories. I'll just tell one of my funnier ones. I mean, one of them which really is, I mean, if I were to just describe my first husband to you. and that's kind of what popped into my head. And I talked about him a little bit, but I just want to...

So I'm 18 years old, and I've just gotten out of myself an emotionally, slightly physically abusive relationship with a boy that I was with in high school, that I kept secret the abuse and everything. So this was the chaos that I was coming from. And so I, on and off with the boy, you know, like could not cut the ties. kind of a thing. And the boy has my car one day and shows up at a Chevron station at the corner of Wilshire and Barrington. And this guy comes out and says, oh, I fixed these cars. It was a 3.0 BMW was my dad's. It was a hammy down to me. I fix these cars if you ever need any. He gets this

car to whatever. And like three months later, I go in and I need my car fix. So I give the car to this guy for two weeks or whatever. And I come back after two weeks. And he's a car mechanic. I mean, I'm like the West L.A. Disco Queen girl. You know, I was, you know, dating a boy whose mom was an Academy Award-winning actor. You know, I was like, I was part of that world. So here's this guy I meet, and he's older, he's not that good-looking. He's working at the Chevron station. He's a car mechanic.

And he says to me, hey, you know, if you ever want to hang out and party, you know, I'd love, you know, I feel like I kind of know you know. I was listening to your cassettes, you know, and I'm like, oh, okay. And some part of me thought, yeah. And I'd already dropped out of UCLA too, but yeah, this is like, this is the right move for me. I'm going to be, you know, all my friends are going off to college and everything. I need to change it up in my life. I'm going to go party with an older man and see what that's like. Like, this is my big adult move.

So, so here's how I describe him to people. And I do this in my show. So I was looking for someone, and what I found was Andrew Sutton, a 29-year-old car mechanic who dealt cocaine and who was also on probation for a federal weapons charge for designing and manufacturing silencers for AR-15s.

And he was married and had a toddler. Oh, dear Lord. That's changing it up. Yeah. We sat, snorted a lot of cocaine together one day, poured our hearts out to each other, and I felt like I had met my soulmate.

And of course, he was waiting to turn 30, because he was getting his trust fund, because he ended up being a Brentwood kid after all, who was a fuck up, but he was a mechanical genius and loved fixing cars, and was waiting to get his trust fund so he could divorce his wife, which he did. Within three months, he was living with me in my bedroom, in my parents' house. Oh, my God. My parents never said to me, hey, what's going? on here. Right. Because he could fix everything. My dad was suddenly like, hey, could you fix the

garage door thing? And Andrew be like, yeah, I could totally fix that. And dad's thinking, this is kind of handy. This guy is useful all around. Useful on a variety of levels. So it, and I've told you some of the chaos, but what ended up escalating, so that was at 18, at 25, no, at 20, I stayed with him 11 years until I was 29. and married him, even though, but knew I never should have his child. At least you knew that. I did. I had some sort of female intuition about that.

And then thinking back on it leers later, gee, if you don't want a person to be the father of your child, why the fuck are you married to him? Right, right, exactly. You know, that was good logic, Kelly. But ended up at a situation where I tried to, he had started doing Coke again, and I caught him at it, and it was just all too much for me. And I got up to walk out and he pulled a gun on me. Oh, my God.

And I peed in my pants because your body does that. And even though it was the end in that moment, it still took me four years to get out of that relationship. A, because I was terrified, because I thought, he might be one of those people that shoots everybody, like the whole family and then kills himself. But that's how fucking ameshed I was, was like, I couldn't even just, like, I couldn't even just, get in my car and drive away forever. And so it's like, it's a big kind of broad, you know, crazy story fitting in your category a little bit. But, I mean, that's like the biggest, like, I own it.

Like, I fucking stayed in it. And I was there. And yeah, codependent and all that kind of stuff. But I kept signing up. Like the writing kept being on the wall every fucking two months. And I kept going, oh, yeah, where am I signing for two more months of this shit? I mean, truly. Right.

Truly, and it's just amazing to me that... But human beings are a mystery. We are. We are even unto ourselves. We are a total mystery. And there is something very specific. Like, even putting aside like the easiest explanations about needing to fix someone and pursuing chaos. There's another thing there, which is the thing, there's the fear of change.

Yes. Just huge. The devil you know. Beautiful. Well said. And then there's the other thing that I think is, is equally crippling and interesting,

which is the unwillingness to admit that you've been duped. That was probably the main thing. Like to have to go to my parents and say, okay, I know you people have been fucking talking about this for 10 years. And I'm just now figuring it out. Well, yeah.

Or at least I'm just now admitting that I figured this out. Because before we got married, I was 25 when we got married. And that's when I said to him, you know, let's not do cocaine anymore. You know, let's not do this anymore. And he's like, great, great idea. So we go off to St. Martin to get married in the Caribbean. I opened up the suitcase. Full of coke. Eighth of ounce fucking cocaine.

Yeah, of course. And we'd already legally gotten married in Vegas. So I couldn't go to my parents and say annulment, whatever it was. It was like, oh, all right, I guess I made this bed. I'm going to have to line it. Right. Right. I've already bought this cow. I've already bought this. Yeah. And I'm just going to have to pretend that it's okay and I'm going to have to figure out how to pretzel shape myself into this. And you're smart. And I think if you're a smart person, there's a part of you that's like, I chose this. And now I, you know what I mean? Like, I chose this. I knew this. I saw this. So I'm just going to double down. You know what I mean? Because otherwise I'm just admitting I'm an idiot and I'm not an idiot. So there must be something I need in this. There must be something I want.

Like, I chose this, you know. And you know. And you know, because otherwise I'm just admitting I'm an idiot. And I'm not an idiot. And I'm not. And God forbid we say that we've made a mistake. I mean, I didn't know how to do that. Yeah. It's taken me a long time to be able to admit that. Yeah. Yeah, it's messy. It is.

But what it taught me was what I don't want in a relationship, and that was really, really important information. And now I've been with my husband for 23 years, and we have an amazing, an amazing relationship. That's so great. Yeah. So it can turn around. Things can change in the relationship department.

Yeah. Yeah. You can. How fucked up your past is, isn't it? Yeah, like you are not doomed to repeat your past. You are not doomed. It does take a lot of consciousness and work. You got to really work it, and you can't fling all your shit on your new partner.

Right. You can't be like, save me. Yeah, you got to learn to take care of that shit. You've been flinging around. And people, I think this is a many people don't understand. I mean, everybody in every relationship, you know, we're just so frail. We're always trying to save or be saved rather than realizing that you've just got to save yourself. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You don't get to nitpick and fix the other person. No, you just got to buy them. Yeah. Then work on your own shit. Absolutely. Right.

Yeah. I mean, I could talk to you forever. Come on. This is ridiculous. I loved this conversation. Thank you. I loved it too. I loved it.

Thank you for doing my show. Oh, truly an honor. Real pleasure. Real pleasure. Thank you. You're welcome. That was Kelly Carlin. I encourage you to get this book.

She's a brilliant mind and a great writer. obviously she's got a degree in psychology, so she's thoughtful and introspective and analytical and perceptive, and she's obviously funny and present, and I will put links to the book and her podcast and everything on my website, girl and guy.net, for you to visit and avail yourself of at your leisure. But if you want to learn a lot about the man behind the extraordinary myth and his family, and about Kelly, I would encourage you to read the book. I love for this conversation. I wish it had gone on for much longer. You guys know what to do. Come follow me and friend me online, come say hi on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tumblr, MySpace, well, you know, that's

up to you, my friend. Google Plus, all of those different things. Come say hi, come write me a letter. Come go to Growling Guy.com. Send me a question for the awesome all-listener question show that is going to be barreling down upon us very soon. It's almost the end of October. And that show comes to at the end of the year. And I think it's important that you reach out to me now, make sure your question gets answered at the end of the year. I try to answer every question that comes in. It's never too early. But it can definitely be too late. So send me your question now just go to girl on guy dot net click on the little envelope and send me a note uh you guys are the greatest uh and i love bringing the show to you every week uh through the the thick fog of

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