Girl on Guy with Aisha Tyler - girl on guy 211: taye diggs

Episode Date: January 23, 2016

join taye diggs of hedwig and the angry inch and murder in the first and aisha as they contemplate pursuing art, defying terror, embracing challenge, transcending change, and saying yes.  plus taye is a man about town. and then things go terribly wrong. girl on guy has to hit the head. 

This is Girl on Guy. Hey, everybody, welcome to Girl on Guy 211. Welcome to the show and welcome to 2016. Now, as many of you know, if you listen to episode 210, the awesome all listener question show for 2015, the nature of Girl on Guy is going to change. It's not going away, but it is going to diminish slightly because I'm just so overwhelmed with work, which is a good thing, right? It's a good thing that I'm so busy, but I kind of finally, and I imagine many of you were speculating, when is it? this bitch going to fall apart? Well, I did. I hit the breaking point sometime in late 2015 and had to figure out how to make my life a little less burdensome. And so girl and guys, the thing that is being modified. Now, originally I thought I was going to give the show up,

but I couldn't do so. I just love it so much. So the show is going to go from being a weekly episode show to be one episode a month, starting now and going forward. For those of you who have been premium subscribers and especially longtime premium subscribers, you may be frustrated because you think, well, I pay a little bit extra to get these extra. extra episodes and now the whole show is going behind a paywall. And what, what does that mean for me? Aisha, why are you doing this to me? Why are you ruining my life? Well, I hate that I'm going to be working some of your hearts. And so we've done something special. And this is for all of my long-time listeners, both premium and non-premium. From this point going forward, you can get three

free free months of growing guy subscriptions when you subscribe for six months. I wanted to just give everybody free, free months outright, but we couldn't figure out a way to make that work technically. I can't tell you how these things work. I'm not a Mr. Computer Man. But we were able to give everybody half off of a six-month subscription to Girl on Guy. And all you have to do is use the code, G-O-G-3-free. That's G-O-G, the number three, and the word free, all one word together. That will get you 50% off a six-month subscription,

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Because I pay for the show out of pocket and advertising defraise just a morsel of those costs, and I've always paid for the show out of pocket because I've loved to make it, but in order to keep the show going now that we're only doing one episode a month instead of four, this was a way to make sure we sustain the cost

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go farther afield. And so sadly, I can't do everything. I'm not superwoman, despite what the song says, but I want to thank all of you for your devotion to the show and your passion for it and all the kindness and all the letters and all the emails and tweets and everything that I've gotten, not just over the years, but especially over the past month as the show has evolved and people have come to me and said that they appreciate it and understand how difficult it's been for me to make. It's a baby. It's my baby. I love it so much. And so I just want to thank everybody out there for your support. You are fucking awesome. You can follow me online, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tumblr, where I post lots of photos and things about my travels.

I did get to go to Europe in December, and I had much fun as I could cram into a very abbreviated period. And it will be doing lots of exciting things this year, including returning to criminal minds. And we are starting a new season of Whose Line Is It Anyway, starts recording this week, and that will be coming to you soon as well. So many magical things on the horizon, and all those things are happening. Every day on the talk, every week on Criminal Minds on Wednesday, ads on CBS, a new season of Whose Lines premiering on CW in just a couple of months, and a brand new season of Archer. So stay tuned for news about that. And because this show's only going to be posting once a month now, it's even more critical that you follow me online if you want to know what's going on.

If you don't want to know what's going on, that's fine too. I'm not your mom and you know how to follow me. You can do whatever the fuck you want to do. I support you in your life choices, whatever they may be, unless you're hurting other people, in which case, get your shit together. All right. This episode is brought to you in part by Casper mattresses. And Casper is a long-time supporter of the show. The thing I'm going to do this year is just have one advertiser per show, and not two and not load them up. And so just my long-time supporters are the advertisers that I'm taking along with me on this new iteration of the show. And Casper is an obsessively engineered mattress at a shockingly fair price. Everybody that I know

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from lots and lots of things. He's done lots of things, including being an originating cast member of the Broadway musical Rent and also the film. He just starred in Hedwig and the Angry inch on Broadway and many, many movies. Still, I've got a group back, the best man, and the series Private Practice. He's currently starring on two shows right now, Murder in the First, and also Rosewood, and he's incredibly busy, busy guy. He is someone I've known for a long time, and I think he is so interesting and thoughtful and constantly challenging himself to be a better artist and a better person and this is such a great conversation about art and identity and race and pursuit of excellence and we'd really dig down deep and it's a really great conversation with a really a guy with a

really interesting mind who's also I think such a comprehensive talent I think I didn't even get a chance to see him in Hedwig in the Ang Range which I was really frustrated by but I did see that play with Neil Patrick Harris and it is one of the most difficult roles I've ever watched anybody play and he's a singer and he's a dancer and he's an actor and he's a writer and he's a really really great guy so enjoy this conversation um with the multi-talented actor singer dancer producer writer tay diggs coming at you straight out of the girl on guy bunker and ride into your face um i am doing this show because when i started to do it i was um we're starting so put that close to your mind.

Taye Diggs, welcome to my show. Taye just asked me why the fuck I do a podcast. That was what he was thinking. He asked it much more politely than that. You know, I started it when I wasn't as busy as I am now. I was just doing Archer. You're pretty busy now, yeah.

And I had been a guest on podcast, and I loved it. And I thought, let me just see if I like it. And I ended up doing a bunch of interviews at Comic Con, and I just loved it. So real quick, so right now you're answering this question. Are you changing, are you aware? Are you just answering this question

like you would answer if we weren't on the show? Or are you just a little bit pulled up because we're on the show? No, I try not to pull up because I'm on the show. I try to be, I feel like people who have listened to the show know that I typically don't pull up. But if there was any conservatism in that answer, it would be just around the fact that right now

I'm so busy that the show has become much more difficult to produce than it was when I first started. Okay. The only reason I was, I'm still doing it is because I love it so much. Like, oh, when I'm not, when I take a hiatus, I take a hiatus like every August and September. I'm like, ooh, it's so nice not to do that show. And then the minute I come back, I'm like, oh, shit, I love making a good show.

Yeah, it is like theater, right? Like theater, tell me about that, because it's so much work that when you're not doing it, are you like, thank God I'm not. You just came off a play. You just came out of Hedwick and the Angry End. I did, yeah. It was life changing all of that. Tell me about it. I want to hear about it.

It was almost hard. It was so much that it's almost difficult to relay. But, you know, it coincided with just what I was going through personally with this divorce and this kid. And, you know, feeling like I had lost my identity. I needed something to focus on. And then it was, you know, I also didn't realize that I just needed a swift and intense kick in the ass. because it was the hardest thing I had ever done. And I'm not, you know, like I realize that I'm talented,

but I'm also very lucky and up to now kind of, kind of not lazy, but I didn't have much, my ambition had a cap on it. And once I had reached, you know, like when I was a kid, I was like, I'm going to be famous. And then once I realized what I could do, I was like, okay, it's going to be through acting. and then I hustled, hustled. And then once I kind of, quote, unquote, made it,

once I found my flow, I kind of just chilled, you know what I mean? And I remember it was when I was doing private practice. I was getting paid the most I'd ever been paid in the ensemble. And during that time, I was due, you know, I bought a really nice house. I had a kid, which was cool. But just as far as my art personally, I was, paralyzed. I played basketball all day when I wasn't working.

This is so interesting. We're going to spend all our time here. It's so good. It's already so good. It's already so good. Because it's just like, you got into my cut. You put both your feet into the cut. Yeah, immediately. So good, good, good. Paralyzed meaning that. It was like I convinced myself, you know what? And this is how you can like fuck yourself up. I was like, you know what, I'm not going to do, if I don't feel comfortable. You know, I was going therapy and, you know, everything is, there was two-edged sword. So I was realizing, okay, there are times all my life I had been uncomfortable, trying to please, you know, trying to do this, trying to do that, trying to putting other people before myself.

And then you go to therapy and then they're like, you know what, you don't need to please. You should, you know, you're old, you're older, you have money, you're in a person. place where if you don't want to feel uncomfortable, you don't have to be. So you can voice yourself. You know, I don't feel comfortable with this. You know, I would rather not do this favor for you. So I was kind of on that track. And, you know, trying to kind of empower myself. But at the same time, it fucked with me because I got in my own quote unquote comfort zone and then didn't challenge myself. So whenever anybody asked me to do, you know, I hate I'm doing what are they called?

You know, will you come and sing for its benefit or for this? I was like, I'm not going to do those. I was afraid of like, you know, the idea of doing a one-man show, performing. I didn't like to sing. I never thought. You were done singing, huh? I never really thought I liked it. Oh, wow.

So I had always done it like as a means to an end. Musical theater, I loved being on stage and I love dancing. But I never really dug singing, especially by myself. Right. because I never thought I really had a good voice. I thought I could sing. So all of that stuff, people would throw with me, and I would say, no, how do I feel about this?

I feel uncomfortable. So I'm just not going to do it. And then I realized, this wasn't until afterwards. Yeah. I just hadn't done anything. Made all this money in the ensemble. I had, like, lowered my standard thinking, I don't need to be the lead of shit.

Like, I had my own show. It was so much hard work. You know, as a black man trying to be elite, and you got to deal with all this other shit. Let me just be right here. I'm kind of in my groove. I'm cool. Like, kind of proud of myself.

Like, okay, this must be what being an adult is like. Like an equilibrium. Yeah, like you don't have to be Will Smith, but, you know, isn't it interesting how all of, you know, the most money I'm making is when I'm not really on my hustle. Oh, you know, thinking that I'm seeing this. And I was, you know, saw life differently. But then upon looking back,

I had really just atrophied. You know what I mean? And then I was looking at other cats that maybe weren't making as much money or weren't as known, and they were on their grind hustling. And I was like, oh, man, you're producing this? Oh, wow.

Oh, you directed that? Oh, you did this one man? And I'm like, wow, how is this cat doing it when I was like, okay, you need to re-re-up some stuff. So then I think it was when I turned 40, I said, okay, I'm going to say yes to everything. Just as an exercise. And then that year, that was when my first children's book was right on point.

And then I started just singing more. And then that's when I just started to find some ambition and start to just move. So all that is a long way of getting to. realizing that I had to kind of, I have to kind of kick my own ass in order to do things because naturally I lay back in the cut. You know, I have a certain amount of talent where I can just be cool and just between,

you and me and whoever's this thing. You know, I can just be cool and do what I do, but it's still, you know, it's still impressive to other people. That's the gift that we have. That's the gift. That's part of it. That's the gift. It's amazing, but it's lucky because,

I can impress folks by just being me. But then in order to impress myself and push myself, that's work. So I started to do that. And that's been great. It's been really cool. Work, but cool. So then I was going through all this personal shit with divorce and whatnot. And, you know, I'm a wist.

I like to hide away and just kind of, you know, I was feeling sorry for myself and whatnot. And then this, the opportunity of Hedwig came. And Hedwig was like the type of show where I saw and I never even, you know, even considered the idea or possibility of doing it. Just because of the nature. First of all, the character is an East German. I mean, just it's always been this very. specific. So specific. More than any other.

I'm always a guy that was like, oh, it would be cute if you could switch it up. But this was, it seemed impossible. Do you know what I mean? But when I would see other people do it, they were literally rock stars and I was like, okay, I need to find something like that for me

because, you know, after I turned 40 and I started really working at shit, I was thinking, what are all the things that, let me go back to that cat that was hustling when I was in high school. What are all the things that I feel like I can do that I haven't done to my, you know, highest ability? And that show was it. It had everything. Yeah. Everything.

Yeah. Like my name above Broadway, my name above, you know, the title, singing, you know, full tilt, acting full tilt, you know, trans being a trans a trans character acting physical as it's the whole it's the whole thing

yeah it's the whole thing I want to pause really quick because now just quickly I didn't mean to serve to you but what I really wanted to ask was that how did it come up did they approach you

I know how it's I don't know what it was like I personally see I shouldn't laugh because that means I'm but seriously I'm on an ever since the divorce I've been on a

a for real, for real spiritual journey. And I think I brought it to my, like the universe, just dropped it right there. But then literally, I don't know what happens on the other side of the curtain. Right. You know, I just, yes. I know that my agent called and said, and he almost scoffed him. He was like, I mean, you know, they want to know if you want to be headwig. I don't, and I said, as soon as he asked me the question, I got the feeling of discomfort in my stomach.

and there's a voice that you listen to and then there's a voice that you ignore. Yeah. Do you know me? So the voice that I'm supposed to ignore was like, no, you're going through this. You need time, you know, to just, to heal. And the last thing you need to do is,

is, you know, do the hardest project of your life. Just give yourself, just take your time, breathe, and an opportunity like this will come, you know, when you're a little bit more equipped. And then I know both voices. And I was like, fuck you. Yes. And I said, yes, I'll do it.

They said, all right, well, you know, I'll give you the weekend. No, don't give you the weekend. Call everybody now and tell them yes, because if I really think about it, I won't do it. Yeah. And he said, all right, all right. Well, I'll just check back on Monday. I said, on Monday it'll be yes, too. But yes.

I said, now listen, yes. That's very agency too. You know what I mean? And they want everybody to dangle a little bit and where's the money? It's Thursday afternoon. My day I'll call you. And we'll see if you're serious about it. No.

I'm saying, don't, I don't lose this. If this is a hard offer, I'm going to do it. And I'll fire you if I lose this. I'm saying yes now. Because, you know, once everybody, you know, once everybody gets in the mix, people, they can, you can get your job. And you can not, you can end up not getting a job. I don't know how many directors I've run.

into at a bar at a club where I'm like we came at you with this but then your people said da da da da da da and these were directors that I would have loved to have worked with so anyway so I told him that and then and then I started and it was you know the hardest thing I've ever had to do and once again I just I attributed to and I think I did all right you know I I think I did all right. I'm depressed, actually, that I didn't get to see you. I am too. Because you're somebody I would have liked to have seen it.

And I, you know, how there's times in your life when you have holes in you can travel. I just had one of those runs where I didn't have a hole. I totally get it. I remember reading about it on the paper and I think I tweeted it out right away. I was like, oh shit. This is so like whatever fear you felt or how is this going to work or whatever. I just remember thinking this is genius. Like this is the most delicious idea

Because what they needed was a comprehensive artist Black, white, whatever, as my father would say, Black, White, Yellow, Bejabre Brown. What they needed was someone who could do everything. And there aren't that many guys. No. That's why you came up. Like, color aside, who can do this?

There are only a handful of people that can do that role. Yes, yes, yes. And I think also to see you and how different you would have been from, like, say, Neil would have been really exciting. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, that's a cool thing. Yeah, I mean, I became, through that show, I became the kind of actor that I always hated. You know what I mean? Yeah, which was the type of cat that talks about the process. You know what I mean? The character, you know what I mean? Actors that talk about the character. I'm like, motherfucker, you, the characters are you just say you. But it was the first time I played a role where I really felt like I wasn't me. And shit would go on on stage. I wouldn't know where it came from or why. So, you know, I would hate when actors would talk about roles as if it was like a club, you know, headwiggy.

But once you play that, you know, once you see someone else that's played it, you know no one in the world has gone through that experience. And you just start just throwing up stuff about the role and parts in the show that were really difficult. and enjoying it, you know what I mean? So it was... What was the hardest part of that process for you? Because it wasn't just... The rehearsal period. Really?

Yeah. Yeah, because... And this is how I know I was forced to work unlike any other way. I was forced to work unlike the way I normally work, which is you know your strong points. You know, go home, do your homework. find your beats, find your little comic, and just plant it all out because I'm a Capricorn. And there just wasn't time to do that.

You know, it was so much of so much music, oh, I'm getting scared even like remembering. I was so petrified. Like, I've never been in a rehearsal process where I didn't know how this was going to happen. So I just had faith and would just try and just learn as much as I could. but it was a type of thing where normally you go to rehearsal you learn a bit you go home memorize what you learned

and then go back but there was so much to do there was no time for me to go home and learn what we had worked on so I would have to go home and memorize and try to memorize new shit and do it halfway oh it was so tough

so just naturally the process, I had to, that's one of those words I hate, I had to trust the process. And, you know, I had people in my ears, you know, for the first beginning performances of the songs. You know, I had the, I got all the, it's weird, usually the songs are the first things, the easiest things to memorize. But I didn't pay any attention to the songs. I was trying to get to choreography and the blocking and the acting beats. So the song, through, the last thing, you know, that I had to memorize. But, you know, just it was magical. Once, once I got up there, it just came together. And the one thing that I never thought I had, which was improvving skills, was the one thing that was, that was my backbone. So once I got in front of an audience, all of a sudden this bitch came out. And people were, and people were, were really, really laughing. And then that gave me the confidence to say, OK, now I have something.

I can base this character on this. And then slowly the rest of the show came around. But I didn't, I had no idea that that was going to happen. And for the whole rehearsal process, I was like, I don't know how this is, I don't know what I'm doing here. Right. I don't have time to work on the accent. I don't have time to.

But it all just came. It all just came. The other thing that's really interesting to me, this really dovetails with everything you kind of started talking about, is, and I think I know what you were saying about, knowing what your strengths are and a big part of your career playing to those strengths, right? Yeah, rehearsing it.

You know, you know your way in, and especially if you're doing like just regular old one-hour scripted television, right? You know you show up, you know your lines, you know what to do. It's rare that you're challenging. so much in that setting that you wake up with no ideas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for something like this where you...

Preparation. Yeah, yeah, you're prepared. And then you rely on the skills we've developed over years and you know they're going to kick in. You know you're going to be able to turn in something that you're proud of. To come into something when you're going through a transformational time in your life. There's that. And then you're having a transformational experience artistically.

I love that you get it. Like, it must have been both... exhilarating. And like you said, just now you were feeling fear. I guess I wonder if when you were thinking about your life prior to when this thing came along, the thing that was missing, the thing that had maybe allowed you to get comfortable was fear and that you really needed to do something creatively frightening. Oh yeah. Yeah. Lean into it. All of that stuff that I used to make fun of people, you know, I love, you know, when people on Instagram or, all this, when people send you those sayings, those corny. Oh, people love it. And now I, I love them.

I used to hate them and now I love them because I get it now. It all has come full circle. But like literally leaning into the pain, like, you know, it is life changing. It changed my life. And I had never, outside of my son, I hadn't had life changing moments. I just hadn't had them. And that was the beginning of something crazy. Well, I got that. Then the last thing you said made me want to go in three different directions. So the first direction is, did that?

The first direction is, did you come out of that play? Because the play was, the play was the direction, right? Choosing the play, choosing something frightening was the direction. Yes, yeah. Has it affected, not just personally, like in terms of your own artistic growth, has it affected how you're approaching your career since you left it? Totally. Okay.

Totally. And that approach is to just be open and that there are no rules. I'm a rule follower. I like to make rules. I don't like to take risks because I would much rather play it safe than, you know, put myself out there and then get fucked up. But that's not how you grow. I used to say, all right, well, my way is better because if you never really fail, You never, you know, have to worry about climbing back.

So if you don't need to be great, then I'll just win. I'll just be winning, especially from everybody else's perspective. But personally, you don't grow. You don't grow. And then being out on that stage and not knowing and being forced to be okay with it is so free. You know, I grew up like super, super nerdy and then slowly grew into some looks and then while I was nerdy,

I would look at all the cool people and register and be like, okay, so when I make it, this is how you are, this is how you talk, this is how you act. Because once I get there, no one's going to really fuck with me. I'm going to stay there. So then I followed all that. And then once I came into, you know, being acting,

I was like, okay, now I'm here. This is what I have to do to stay here. I'm not going to do anything to, you know, to make that waiver. And, you know, so I cared about what other people thought. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You're going to the club and you get, oh, okay, you get the bottle, then you get the tape. How does this look?

Yeah, yeah. Okay, this is, okay, cool. Because, you know, for the rest of the world, that's what works. Right. That's what makes sense. That's currency right now, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

They've arrived. Based on these five or six, a Kuchama, I see in this photo. This person has made it. Yes. Unfortunately. So then, but not caring what people think. And that's what I'm saying.

It was like the perfect storm because I'm 44 now. After a certain age, it doesn't really matter. You know what I mean? Like, I'm successful. And I don't have to really care. Like, I can say something. bullshit and because I am where I am, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. Right.

You know, I mean? Real fans are real fans and they'll stick with me. So all of that, coming to all of that, all of those realizations at the same time, this play brought all that to the surface. So that has just changed my entire perspective on how I look at the world personally and my career. Right. I mean, it also feels like the thing that flipped for you perceptually was the idea. And I know, I'm just speaking now from my own experience as well, is like very early on when you're hustling, like you said, your sense of what success looks like is very specific. But what you, when you arrive to a certain

place in your career and you feel like, okay, I've hit some of these points, what you realize is that it's also very constraining, it's very limiting, right? Yes. Like you lose artistic radicalism, right? You can't grow without radicalism. And you can't. It's just, there's no growth without. You agonizing change. For you. Yeah. For you personally. Yeah. And, and, you know, something you were talking about, I talk a lot on this show about

about the power of failure and like how that is actually what makes you strong. And when you're avoiding it, like you said, you hit a mid-level, but you can't actually, you can't have any breakthroughs, right? Because you just comfortable comfortable. Right, right, right. The things you were talking about, and this is a very traditional term, but it's going to work because I've been going through it.

What it seems like you were describing to me, and people used to use this term kind of negatively, but I actually don't think it is. You went through a mid-life crisis. You were looking around. Are you crazy? Like, if you knew, if you knew.

But, you know, I mean, the part, like, it buried in that, right, is like, is this who I want to be? Is this, am I headed where I want to go? What am I going to do with the next 40 years of my life? Is it going to be meaningful? or am I going to cruise? And people tend to dismiss the midlife price.

Oh, they're going to get a sports car and get a young girlfriend. But that's not what it is. What it is is, I have a finite amount of time. How am I going to use it? Leaving a mark. Yeah, leaving a mark. Leaving a mark for me too. Without and within, right?

100%. Like, is everything I'm doing meaningful to me, valuable to me? Because you can get up and jump, and I do it, jump in your sports car and drive to your studio, Someone brings you breakfast. Someone brings you clothes. Yeah.

Oh, don't get that twisted. I want all that too. I mean, it's fun. But, right. You know what I mean?

It can be soul deadening. Yes. Oh, if that's it. Right. If that's it. If that's it. And if you're a true,

I think if you're a true, true artist, it's not, it's not it. And then people, that's when some, some real shit starts to happen. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, you redirected it. But it's, the thing is when it's, happening, it's excruciating and painful. I mean, change is so fucking painful. Even when what's on

the other side of change is what you want or what you think you need or what you know you need, getting over there is like gut wrenching. Yeah, it's tough. Yeah. It's tough. It's really tough. And that role, you know, we closed it. And I wasn't any, you know, I wasn't anywhere near what I what I know I could have done with it. So that's how I know that I'm not done yet. That's exciting, though. That's an exciting place to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.

Yeah. So I'm still looking at them still, that wasn't it. You know what I mean? That was the most difficult, but there's still a lot more left. So now I got to figure that out. But that's also a discovery you made about yourself. Because I think in that process of saying to yourself, well, is this going to work?

Can I do this? Right. To discover not only can I do this. but I don't even think I left it all out there. There's more in me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

I always feel like as an artist, there's a fear that like, oh, maybe this is all I had, like, this is all I got in there. Right, right, right. You know what I mean? That's a terrifying thought. Right. To think, I've done it. This is where the vestiges of the old te, or whatever.

But, like, I would have almost looked at that as, instead of a fear, sitting back and be like, okay, having this a guy, I did it. Yeah. Now, now I have a reason to lay back. Do you know what I mean? Whereas before, the whole reason for me moving forward was, wait, you haven't done it. You haven't done it all.

I could easily sit back and say, all right, well, that was it. That was a hard. Now I, now I can lay back, but I can't. No. Because I know that there's more left. It's, like I said, I think it's, um, I hope, I mean, I'm, I hope. but I don't think it's ever going to.

If I stay on this path, it's never, that's never, that point is never going to come. No. Like, that's, I mean, you pray for that, right? Like, I think the worst thing to do would be to wake up one day and be like, oh, I've stopped growing. No, yeah. Or I can't think of one thing I want to do that I haven't done. Right, right. And that's when you go to Palm Springs and get fat.

Oh, sorry. That was a very weight of things. You know what I mean? That's when you moved to Paul Springs and start wearing like a moo-moo and, you know, and like getting up and drinking at night in the morning. Yeah. Yeah. and I've done both of those.

As have I. A well-placed drink earlier. Very effective. Very effective. Let's go back to the beginning. Okay. Where were you born? I'm really weird.

Oh, I talked to you about writing. Now I just started writing. That was another thing. That was actually hunkering down. That's exciting. I'm starting to write that. But I don't know. for a fact, but my mother says,

because my whole family's crazy, New Jersey, not East Orange, but Newark. Newark, New Jersey. That's what your mother tells you, but you have reason to be suspicious. Now I don't know what she's saying.

Stories have changed many times. But this is what she says. So she says, all right, so there's my father. my birth father, or I never really knew, but they were together, and then they were on and off, and then I was created. And then my mother went to this hospital in Newark to have me with her mother. My father wasn't there.

I was had. She didn't know what to name me. So my mother's maiden name was Barry. So on my little bracelet and my footprints, the name was Baby Barry. My mother left the hospital before they gave me a birth certificate. So I don't have a birth certificate. My mother called me, it's so crazy. My mother called me Andre, just because that was my birth father's name.

Then she left New Jersey. So right now I'm Andre Berry in the timeline. There's no, there's no documentation. Okay. Yeah. There's just baby Barry, which isn't really a person. Yeah, yeah. It's my mother's maiden name with the word baby in front of her.

So this is how crazy my family. Nobody thought to go back and get anything. So now I'm Andre Berry. They used to call me L.A. for sure, because that's where I was conceived. My mother left Jersey, moved to New York State, Rochester, started working at Kodak and met my stepfather. His name was Jeffreys. Jeffries Leo Diggs. Crazy, crazy cat, crazy. As eccentric as it gets. My mother moved in with him, the instant kind of family.

And she thought this would be a great opportunity for me to kind of lose the memory of my real father and kind of force myself into this new family situation. Now, at the same time, and tell me if you're not following, because I'll go back. I'm privited. My stepdad lived in a prodigal. I wrote a children's book called Chocolate Me about this moment. It was Greece, a suburb, Greece, New York. It was a predominantly white neighborhood, and there was one other black kid named Reggie. So I looked around me, and my name, Andre, didn't feel, at the time, white.

Yeah, yeah. But for me, it was just, my name didn't feel like all these other kids around me. Yeah, that you knew. It made fun of me. How old were you at this age? This was five. Okay. Yeah.

So out of nowhere, I came into the house and said, Mommy, I want, to change my name. And I remember thinking, I went through like Jimmy, Johnny, Jimmy, Johnny, Jason, all the names that seemed really, really white at the time. And I came up with Scott. So my mother had no idea why. Why I wanted to change my name. But she jumped on and was like, we can have a new, kind of a new beginning.

like relabel ourselves. So then from that point on, my name was Scott, which is the name I chose, and then Diggs, which was my stepfather's last name. Now, to this day, I don't know how, like, I have a social security card with that name, but I don't know how legally that worked. Right, you just took the name. And then magically, yes, and my mother doesn't remember, because when I needed a passport. You didn't have a birth certificate? No. So I literally, that was by the grace of God or whatever.

Like at the end of the day, there was a nice woman behind, you know, the window that was like, well, just bring in a really good friend. I had as much shit as I could. Like bills. Yeah. And then at the end, it was just a friend of mine that said, yes, he is who he says he is. And she just hooked me up. So it's crazy.

So I don't really, I mean, I exist, but then I don't, I kind of don't exist. I mean, there's a trail for you. Like, if you could go back to the hospital and then you would have records of babyberry being born in this hospital. But no, because what's this, when, when, when I was trying to get my passport, we're like, okay, we'll just go back, go back to the hospital and get your birth certificate. The hospital burned down. Oh my God. So there is no record. Wow.

Isn't that crazy? That's crazy. So you'll be able to trace me back to a certain point and then the shit will stop. It's incredible. If you don't know any of my history of baby barrier, I lost my footprints. Yeah. So now I don't even, you know what I mean? Yeah.

So now I just have, I have to start from the passport and my social security card. That point forward. So that's crazy. Did you have that? Okay. So you were talking about being the only black kid in this very white suburb. Yeah. And I had a similar experience.

And I know what it feels like to be very, very other, like very other. We need to come back because I got so much to say about this shit. It's, it's like, I think people could find, like could talk about it in some really traditional kind of like obvious dichotomy ways. Like the only by kid and you got T's and kids are racist and stuff, blah, blah, blah. Like push all that aside to just focus on the part of you that just doesn't feel like you belong. Sure. Do you know what I mean? That identity, like, who are you?

And then you, and then doubly compounded with the fact that you essentially adopted a whole new identity in an attempt to feel more a part of the world that you had joined. Exactly. Did you feel other your whole childhood? Did you find a way in? And also, how do you feel like your otherness may have, because I always feel like outsiders tend to be artists. I just feel you become a very good observer. But I wonder how that affected, how you feel that affected you.

You've written a book about it, obviously. Right, right. I mean, and for me, and this is another like a headwig moment where I went to this like trauma, trauma camp like a couple of months ago called OnSight, where, you know, for me, I looked at a bunch of stuff that was happening in my life that I didn't really dig. And I was like something this has to do with my past.

And I want to go somewhere where I can just get some intense work and have, just have shit beat out of me, do you know what I mean? So I can really get down to business and figure out, you know, want to be responsible for. And free yourself from the stuff you've been carrying around. But not even really knowing. So I didn't want any, I didn't want any excuses. So during, while I was.

you know in this intense therapy um this this uh just wonderful therapist like likened my whole life to it's just so corny but please bear with me uh headwigs life and it and it matched like you know like exactly wow was just with identity so i say that to say that i'm still dealing with that You know what I mean? Just wanting to fit in. Existing, realizing that you don't fit in, doing what you need to do to fit in, fitting in, but then realizing that there's somewhere else that you, you know, that, that, that, that, that you're feeling excluded.

And it's been, it has been a journey up to, you know, it's been a continuous or continual, whatever, journey. So I'm still Still dealing with it Yeah I mean Yeah Still

And like you said Like feeling like you've never arrived Which maybe feeling like you've arrived As a dangerous feeling as we discussed before Because you can really kind of stick But I feel like the other thing that I always carried around Was this thing of like well I've snuck in here And at any moment everyone's going to figure out

Totally And run me out Yeah Yeah And so there's that feeling of kind of like Not belonging anywhere you go Yeah Yeah

And it's easy, you know, pity. Pity and anger, I'm realizing. I mean, I don't know. I'm still figuring out. Pity, there's no room for. Anger, I guess, can sometimes propel you. But, you know, I'm trying to figure that out with this whole spiritual thing. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I guess there's a place for it, but I don't know. It can be a trap. I mean, like, say, it can propel you for it, but it can also be a trap. Yeah. Yeah. It can be a trap.

And for me, there's so much anger there, you know, just with my identity and with how I was treating, how I was treated, you know. Like for something as simple as, you know, and I know that you can relate to this, getting made fun of, you know, for talking white or studying. Doing homework. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, as soon as something happens where you do something. that is of note, then everybody crowds to claim you. Do you what I mean? When I'm like, y'all motherfuckers, you know what I mean?

Now, all of a sudden, you know, like, I want everybody that was like, Barack Obama, you know, he's the first black president. I'm like, y'all niggas, like, you know that you sat there and called him white and wouldn't let play you know what I mean? And now he's your first black and his ass is mixed like and I just sit

I sit on this you know and just and I just got a smile and you know just okay what this is oh my people my people we're putting it in the street now we're going to put it right into the street because I do this all the time

and then I get mad of myself for doing this tape but it's just how I feel and I'm not going to put anybody I'm not I feel like there's organization in this industry who don't want to claim you until you have something they want. So then all of a sudden they want to invite you to stuff and they want to lodge you. I'm like, you weren't fucking with me when I was doing talk soup. So I'm not interested in you now.

Exactly. I'm not interested in you now. But then people will say, well, that's just part of the process and you got to keep moving forward. So put all that behind you or else you're not. But then that leaves that, but then nobody takes care of us because then we're fucked up inside. Because at some point, that has to come out. I try to put it down. I mean, we're talking about anger, and I think the anger is such an interesting thing.

Like you said, it's a natural aspect of being human. You can't not get angry. I mean, it's involuntary a lot of the time. Yes. Yes, 100%. Right, yeah. And it can be based on very real experiences. I, my response when I get angry is just to go dead.

I'm like, I'm just not fucking with y'all no more. And that is the end of that. Yes. You know what I mean? That's the choice. And that's how I have handled it. And I don't care if it comes off as glib. It's that life is finite and I only have so much time for so many things.

I get it. You know? I get that. But you said it is involuntary. You can't control, you can't always control how you feel, whether, how your anger is going to express yourself. No, no, no. No.

But, yeah, but, you know, you can get, yeah, like you can get trapped by it, you know, because I don't, personally, I don't want it, I don't want it to paralyze me. you know, like, you know, like I, for instance, I don't know if you, I wrote a second children book called Mixed Me. Yeah. And this was after you had your son. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah.

So really focused on his experiences, which were going to be different than yours, obviously, in a lot of ways. Oh, my God. Totally. Totally. Well, already, you know, yeah, he's mixed. Yeah. And not just black and white, but his mom is Jewish, right?

His mom is Jewish. And are you raising him religious? I mean, these are all questions. Totally. Not yet. Not yet. But I want to, I want him to learn. I'm raising him spiritual, which is cool.

And have him make his own choices. Yeah, yeah. But there's a rich cultural history there that I don't. That's not just religious. Like you said, that's cultural. No, cultural. Yeah, and I don't want to take that away from him. So I probably, you know, I'll talk to his mother about this.

But I want him to know all of that. But he is mixed. His mom is Jewish and I'm black. So I wrote a book thinking that this was, you know, a positive thing, knowing that it's a positive thing. Yeah, absolutely. And I say, you know, this is for other people that may have similar backgrounds, whatever their history is, you know, self-empowerment and not being afraid to say and claim

who you are and to uplift yourself. And people have taken that for me to say, people have taken. that, thinking that I was saying that I don't want my son to call himself black. So, I mean,

so now, you know, now I, I, so, okay. So, the first emotion was like disgust. Right. Because anything that fucks with my kid,

I'm like, fuck, fuck you. Yeah. Fuck you. this is my child. Right. Don't even look my way. Don't even have his name come through your mouth. Unless it's all positive.

Yeah. So fuck you, fuck you. And then it was, all right, come on. Now, like, please be smart.

Yeah, be thinking, be a thinking person. Yeah. Be smart. Yeah. We're already, you know,

and a lot of these people are black. So it's like family. It's like, come on. This is self-defeating. Madness. Let's try to. I was disappointed. Try to look upwards. Yeah. Totally.

And then it was, so, so, so, so discuss, disappointment. And then anger, which just was like, I'm tired of this. Like, I'm tired all my life. I've had to just try to, you know, be the person that's trying to explain. Explain yourself. I understand. I understand why you feel like this. So let me just be the one to just, you know, spell it. I won't be angry. There's a reason why you feel this way. I understand your thoughts and we've been held down. and women and not feeling loved black women and I get and I was like I'm fucking tired of it I'm tired so fuck y'all figure it out I'm gonna do me and and fuck you and fuck you but then I said all right well the spiritual side was like this is an opportunity and it would be different if I hadn't written a book right but I was like okay this now forces me to have a platform to basically

just better explain what I'm talking about in this book. I didn't think I would have to fuck with grown-ass adults, but so be it. Do you know what I mean? Yes. So be it.

So bring it on. So now I'm going to do these talk shows and be on panels and shit and have to, you know, talk about something that I never... And also something that in a lot of ways feels like it doesn't need to be explained. Like it seems like you're having

a conversation that people should have been having 50 years ago. Like, why? But I'll do it. It makes me think of when Tiger Woods was talking about his ethnicity, and he called this of cablinasian. I think that was how. And people were mad at him because they were like, we're just fucking black, you don't want to be black.

And I just remember thinking he is, but you're asking him to deny half. His mother, his mother, the woman who birthed him, you're asking him to deny one half of who he is. Yes. And so to run around saying, oh, you're trying to. trying to say you have Asian, but you're just, you're just, well, you know how that I'm not even, you're just black and you need to stop denying your blackness is just bullshit.

Because half of his identity, the food he ate growing up, the woman who wiped his ass, is not black. And it's, it's not, I mean, to say you're more than one thing is not a denial of that one thing. No, it's very simple, but it's, to me, excuse me, it's very simple to me. It seems very clear. Yes. but, you know, fear is a fucked up thing. And I think for me, you know, I'm really hoping to speak to, you know, a very kind of, what is the word cogent? Cogent means to, like a cogent argument is a well. A person can be cogent, but more typically an argument or a discussion or a point is cogent. You're making a point that is well constructed to the point.

You can speak cogently. Okay. to someone who speaks coaching me. You're smart. I'm a nerd. Hey, whatever. I'm off for. Who, you know, has similar beliefs as these people that are kind of coming at me.

And I really want to know where they're coming from. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, you want to understand it because it seems so small-minded. There's got to be something behind it, right? Yes, yes, yes. because when I think about it, I know that there has to, you know, because there's ethnicity

and then there's identity. But for me, I don't understand why, you know, like you said, you can't have both. So that simplistic construct was put on us. Yes. It was placed on us. And so why are we then taking it on ourselves? Why not say, I mean,

the great leap forward for people of color, in this country for black people specifically is we are not a monolith. We do not all feel the same thing. We do not all have the same experiences. We do not all eat the same food and we cannot all play fucking basketball. Why are we, when you hear a black person come to you, and I remember this is a story

for a friend of mine whose name just fell out of my head because I can't remember shit. Warren. Warren Hutchison. It was a comedian and a writer. And he was writing on a show, like a black sitcom, The Parenthood or something like that. And he was at like the crafty table and he was eating a bagel.

And another, a black writer come up and said, man, black people don't eat bagels. And he was like, black people don't eat bread with a hole in it? What the fuck are you talking about? Like, that's the kind of thing. That's the thing that it's just beyond comprehension. Blackish. Because they deal with a lot of that.

They deal with like, and I'm, you know, that's the funny thing about it is, like, I want my son to identify with being black. Like I want, I want him, this is my own weakness, and I'm just admitting,

I want him to call himself a black man. But that doesn't mean it's right, and that doesn't mean, and that's not, and far be it from me, to put that on him. Right. Do you know what I mean?

I'm a human just like everybody else, and when I ask myself, why is it that I want to make sure I speak a certain amount of slang or my son, just to make sure he, you know, because I grew up not knowing any of the hip shit.

Right. And I would look at other people and be like, oh, man, how come he just comes so naturally? And then I see his parents. And so I was like, all right, well, I want my son. I don't want my son to have to, I want my son to always feel like he fits in. So I want to make sure he knows, he knows how to speak properly. But then he knows this and the that and how to do. So I last my chain of thought.

It was about you want him to, you want him to define him. You want to say he's a black man. I think you're going to say, and this is why, but maybe you're going in a different direction. Right, right. It's coming. It is going to come back to you. But, okay, so, right. So, but so then when I ask myself, why, why am I doing this?

It all comes from a place of fear that who we are, I'll just speak, you know, to myself, who I am will will fade away. Right. Like I want my mark to be left on him. And that's a fear. Like what happens if, you know, as black people, we have worked so hard. We have come so far to the point where we're now, we can actually, you know, we can be proud. We've done so much.

But. And it's that name. Like, I am black. that means something. Everybody knows, I am black. I came from this, and now I'm this. Who are you? I am black. But if you take black away,

it feels like then we have nothing. Do you know what I mean? It can easily feel that way as opposed to this is me. What's interesting is that that's probably where people who come at you from the other side, that's a place of fear they're operating from.

Sure. And now that's why I want to talk to one of these people and see if I'm on the right track. But the other side of that, interestingly enough, and I've thought about that, I think my mother was in SNCC and was like a big activist in college and, you know, like a real, you know. Yeah. She wasn't a panther, but, you know, she was on that tip. Yeah. That they feel like, oh, these are all the sacrifices we made, right? This is all, this is the fight that we, you know, my mom went to school with segregated bathrooms.

You know what I mean? It wasn't three generations ago. my mom. But I think that the nuanced aspect of the flip of that fight is, you work so hard so that I can define myself. I don't need to be defined by somebody else. We've been defined for so long from the outside. Hopefully we get to a place where we have the freedom to define ourselves however we want.

And that may mean that some of us fall away from whatever, whatever large kind of monolithic definition we've made about black. But wouldn't it be nice to have the same freedom than every other ethnic group has to define themselves in whatever fucking way they want to? Yes. You know, as an artist, you know, you feel like, oh, is this choice I make as a black actor going to reflect badly on my people? No other actors walking around thinking if they take a role as a junkie or a hooker, it's going to say something bad about their ethnic group. We're the only ones. Right, right, right.

And it's a burden. I mean, it's totally can be, yep. I think it's... It's extra shit that you don't... It's this extra shit. You can't just be a fucking artist. Right. Right?

Like, let me just do my shit and tell my stories. I've got to think about how this looks all the time. You know, and no judgment on people who take stuff that's stereotypical and they make a lot of money. And God bless them, they do their shit. Do you get out there and make your money. There's that side of it too. Mm-hmm.

But it's... It's, I think the goal for me, and I think that's the conversation that you have with these people that feel this way is, have we work this hard so that we can. be everything. We want to be. Not just the things that you think define us as a group. Because we just have never... You go over to Africa and the African dude in that village thinks the African dude in that village who, to our eyes,

look exactly the fucking same, he's completely alien. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, we think of ourselves as one thing. But we were made this way. It is limiting. It is limiting. At the same time, I'm utterly proud to be a black woman, but it's not everything I am. No, it isn't.

But we are, yes, we are, if you don't say that, people will be offended. Mm-hmm. Because, because I feel like others didn't have the choice. We have more of a choice. Yeah. And then others didn't because that's, like that's what people will say. Like with my son, you know, if he chooses to call himself mixed, it's cool. But then there'll be another cat that says the rest of the world is going to look at your son and see a black man.

Like regardless of what you think or what you want to say. He doesn't have white skin and he doesn't have blonde hair, blue eyes. The rest of the world thinks he's a nigga. You know what I mean? Yeah. Which, you know, I guess both things are true. But in the end, if we let the world define us, we wouldn't have fucking gotten here in the first place, my name.

That's what is so frustrating. Or it's like, don't. And that's where I just, you know, that's where my patience has to come in. Your work. Your work cut out for you. Fucking, don't claim me then. Yeah. Don't claim me.

Don't come and claim me when it's convenient. Don't. When I win my Oscar, when I'm the first, this, don't fucking claim me if you're going to be silly like this. But I can't say that. I would have to smile on stage and go to a bunch of luncheons. You know what I mean? I always have to keep myself from saying that. I'll call, I'll tell my public says, call them and tell them they didn't want me before.

They can't have me now. She's like, I can't do that. You know? But you kind of can, though. You kind of could if you wanted to. In college, I couldn't get any of the cute little black girls. They did not want to fuck with me. No.

And then I went out with white girls because they liked me. And then the moment that happens, all of a sudden, I don't love black women. Ridiculous. I've had actually somebody tweeted me once, oh, why do you hate black men? I was like, I don't even know what the fuck you are. talking about right now. I was like, my father who raised me is one of the greatest black men, in my opinion, in the world. I talk about him all the time adoringly. He literally formed me out of clay with his bare fucking hands. Don't tell me I don't love black men. And then you're,

and then you're reduced to the like, my best friends of black shit, which is just like a bunch of bullshit anyway. But why am I going to sit here and try to justify myself to you? Like, it's, I mean, you know, crime me with her, but it's what we, yeah, it's real. And it stays. And it stays. with you. Yeah, it does. All that shit stays with you. You know what I mean? It doesn't go away. I thought after I had a little bit of fame, I was like, all right, well, I'm just, I'll just be me. But it's, it stays with you. And those cats on the other side, you know, whatever their issue is, they don't go away. You know what I mean, there's always going to be something that someone's going to come at you, you know. You also just have this blessing and this burden, which is that you are so prominent. You have had so much success,

incredibly diverse success, commercial success. Right, right. To a certain extent. You know, I mean, there's so much more ahead for you, but, you know, I mean, I always tell people this, I don't do a lot of research because I always want to learn about people, even with people I know, I want to learn about them in the moment. I don't want to be like, I understand, you know, you want to blah, blah, and you've done this, you know, because I hate what people do that to me. You know what I mean? I'm like, no, my favorite color is not purple, motherfucker. Stop reading Wikipedia. But you have had like this really broad kind of success.

Like in, you know, in like very commercial television shows and very commercial films. And what even would, you know, I mean, I was thinking of like roles you've played that felt like, I don't have better language for this. Something like as a traditional is like go or something like that. You know what I mean? Like these roles that feel alternative. Yeah. You know what I mean? But you are a comm.

Camelians, maybe not even the right word. I just think you pass to the eye. You pass easily from world to world. You can do something like best man or the wood, and then you can do something like private practice and you can do something like Go. And then you're doing Broadway. You have a certain facility

that makes you emblematic, which makes you a target. Right. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. People do hold you up. They do see you up there, and they aspire,

and anytime someone as aspirational, they become a target. Yeah. There's probably no way around that. No, not if, yeah, not if you... I mean, you are going to be the first black blop-de-blop, and people are going to claim you. You know what I mean? There's no way around any of that.

And, you know, I will be, don't get it twisted. I'm also proud of all that stuff. But like you said, that other stuff doesn't go away, you know, so I can't act like, like I'm... I haven't, like I don't remember. Right. You know what I mean? Right.

Do you also feel like now that you have a son, you think about this stuff more or less? Totally. More. Okay. More, okay. A gift is that with him, you know, he teaches me to be in the moment. Mm-hmm. Because right before it was born, just like I told you before, I thought I could plan everything out.

but, you know, once you have kids, you realize there's no time. You are forced to be right there in the moment and who you are as a person comes out. And I'm thankful that I, that person is a good father. I'm thankful for that because, you know, the first shit that comes out, usually to me I'm comfortable with. And he's turning out okay. So when I think of him, I almost have no control over, you know, oh, let me make sure he's raised this way. But then when other people bring themselves into my, you know, my arena, then it forces me to think more about it. Do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah. If this shit didn't come to me with, with, you know, identity and whatnot, I've never thought about Walker's identity before this. It was just mixed. And I just wanted to write a book for kids, you know, like him. All of my mixed friends would tell me how they were forced to choose. And it was just a book about, you know, self-esteem. But now that this conversation has come up, you know, now. it's constantly on my mind. So I wouldn't have thought of that naturally. But now because of my son and because people have brought it to me, it is the fuck on my mind. Yeah, absolutely. And having been a young boy moving through the world and having those experiences shaping a certain way, you think, can I make this easier?

Can I frame it differently for him? Yeah, just being aware. I want to be just aware. And now I'm curious, you know, the other day I asked him, because he's very aware now, you know, who's black and who's white. And I said, you know, this is something I wouldn't have thought of, but I wanted to ask him. And then I thought, I said, okay, well, is this okay to ask? And I said, well, Walker, what do you, what do you think of yourself? And he said, I'm mixed, just like that.

So then, you know, that's when I took a deep breath. Because I never told him he was mixed. Right. I never told him that. I never used, you know, that vocabulary. He just arrived at that. And I'm cool with that, you know. That is accurate to me.

Yeah. And that was, and it was honest. I wasn't disappointed that he didn't say black. And I know, you know, that's going to upset some people. But I wasn't. I'm cool with that. Now, would I have been disappointed if he had said, white, yes, I would have. I would have for more than the obvious reasons. You know what I mean?

And that's, you know, that's just, that's just life, you know, I have pride and I was raised a certain way and, you know, I'd be cool with it. I would have to be, but there would be a little, you know, a little part of me that was, you know, kind of saddened. But he didn't, you know what I mean? And that other person, I can still. you know, I can deal with that. I can deal with that later. You know what I mean? I can still try to work on that. And his identity is going to continue to form. 100%.

Constant. 100%. Forming as the rest of his life. Can I, before we run out of time, you know, this is a question that I'm sure you've been asked thousands and thousands of times in your career. So like a little bit above average is what people say. A little bit above average.

Impressive. and then you throw in all the skills and it's like life changing. Exactly. All right. So the second most common question you've been asked, I guess is, I did read a little bit about you. And, you know, so the first quick question is actually not that question. It's when did you know that you wanted to be an actor?

College. College, although I knew it. When I knew it, I knew I was good at it in high school. But then I went to Syracuse University for vocal performance. And then was bored. And then I saw a bunch of people rehearsing in the dorm and they were part of the music theater program. And then I transferred. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to ride this out.

Right. Because you had almost, I mean, you couldn't have known when it was happening, but looking back. You know, you had this kind of like an almost, like a series of almost perfect events. You know what I mean? Rent. And then, and did Stella come before or after rent? After rent. So like, you had like these two like really seminal projects happen for you.

Yeah. And I guess I wonder if, like when rent was happening, if you knew that it was special when you were doing it. How can I say this? I'm hyperware, but then at the same time, I can be very flighty. So I knew that, no, I didn't know how special rent was going to be. I was just having a really good time. Then once it started, once it really hit, then I started to realize.

But I came late to the realization how special it was. It didn't really, really hit me until years later. Just what the show truly represented. At the time, I was just very thankful and I thought it was going to be a great springboard. You know what I mean? And I knew that it was, you know, changing people

but it didn't hit me the way it was supposed to until years later. Right. I mean, I think moments like that typically don't. Like, you know, you look back now and you're like, oh, my God. I mean, this seminal play, this seminal cast, so many of whom have gone on to extraordinary things. And it was a play that kind of captured a moment in time culturally for America and what was happening with, you know, youth and AIDS.

Like, all these things that were just so specific. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then you get Stella, and I imagine that must have been much more of like an, okay, this is about to be a big deal. Yeah, yeah. That was, yeah. And, you know, I was, because I, because I speak to young people now. And, you know, like, people just approach me in, like, the middle of, in the parking lot, you know, with my kid and, you know, car full of gross.

He's going to be like, yo, brother, just, I mean, like, like, for real, like, how'd you, like, how'd you make it? How did you? I'm like, for real, like right now, I'm going to tell you. How did you know, like, did you have an... Oh, God. It's an impossible question. Oh, my Lord. In the middle of the day, with groceries and my kid on my hip.

But for me, it was confidence. You know what I mean? I truly believe, like, when you ask not to liking myself to the Oprah's and the... But all those people, like, did you know you were going to make it? Did you... Everyone who's made it, they knew. whether they had talent or not. Right.

But inherent in that knowing, it's like a two-pronged approach, right? One is I know it, and then two is I'm going to execute and continue to execute. Yes. Oh, totally. Like relentlessly. Yeah. Yeah. And for me, it wasn't even, to me, it went hand in hand.

So the work wasn't even work. It was just, this is what I have to do. Yeah. Because I know it was common sense in order to put myself in a room. Like, I knew that somebody wasn't just going to come down from heaven. I knew I had to be in the right room with the right person. Which is how most people imagine it happens is that you're sitting at a diner and someone comes up and says they're going to make you famous. No.

No. I want to be that person that does it for someone else. Somebody else. Yeah. But I knew what I needed to do. So, you know, that confidence pushed me through. And then, but there were moments like rent, you know, where in my life, in my head, I was supposed to, I was supposed to be the lead. Do you know what I mean? I wasn't the lead.

So I was like, okay, it's not my time now. And then the play blew up and I was like, okay, this is going to put me in a position where I'm going to be the next thing. And I was the last person to pop from rent. Everybody else, you know, Edina got a record deal. Adam got a record deal. Daphne got two movies. You know, Jesse got a big TV show. And I was like at the time, I was like, wait, what's it supposed to? I'm a cat. So I just had to wait. and, you know, still stay the course and not, because that can get in your head. Oh, self-defeating totally. Yeah. It can really get in your head. But I just stayed the course and then I got Stella. Did you audition for that?

Yeah, and I auditioned not thinking that I was going to get it just because the description was like a tall, you know, Jamaican dude with dreads. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I was like, let me just go in. put myself down just so they have me. Because, you know, back then I looked at every audition as like an opportunity to

show people who I was. So I did it and then I got a call back and then I don't know if the movie lost money or something. They put it on hold so then I just released it. And then it came back months later. They had a screen test

and then I booked it. And even then, even then, I was like, I made it, I made it. And then the day after it opened, I expected. Because, you know, you read all these magazines. You see what paparazzi is. And I didn't understand what all of that actually was. I thought that after the movie opened, I would come home and that my doors would be just surrounded.

Tay, Tay, Tay, Tay, T. And I walked home on the premiere. You know, there's nobody there. I was like, okay, my banking cow was still the same. I was like, okay, this is interesting. So, you know, it was a learning curve. Oh, I love it. It was a trip.

Yeah, I mean, the one thing about that, the one thing about that film that I remember vividly, because I remember seeing in the theater with my mother and my grandmother, you know. Of course. And every other black woman in the world is that it was so much about you as a sex symbol. Like, that's what that movie was. You know what I mean? I mean, it had this romantic. at core and it was very much about, you know,

Stella's awakening, but like you were, you were like a sex symbol. You were like this hot dude in the movie. And when, after that movie, did that translate for you into people seeing you that way as an actor, like, and pulling you in for those kind of rules? I don't think so. I mean, I had to like take my shirt off at times, but like, for auditions and stuff?

No, no. Just at the supermarket. At the supermarket. Hey, hey, man. Should you take a shirt off? It was, I don't know. I mean, after that was, you know, gold came out and, and I'm the wood and the best man. So it wasn't like I was like the hunky guy for any of those, you know what I mean?

The interesting thing was I was waiting for. for that, but on a universal level. Like, I was so ignorant. I remember I was with CIA, and I didn't know, I didn't realize just the racism that was, let me know if we were, no, we're good. That's perfect.

Racism in Hollywood. Yeah. So I thought, okay, I got this movie that was somewhat universal. A lot of white people saw how Stella. It did incredibly well across the board. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, okay, I got my ticket. I wanted the roles,

that Matt Damon and shit, you know what I mean? So then I left CAA. Because you felt like they weren't pulling that stuff for you. Exactly, exactly. And at the time, CAA was, I don't know where they are today, but they were like the biggest and the baddest agency. And, you know, I was with a smaller agency when I got Stella. And then CAA came after me.

And of course, I was like, oh, this is how it's supposed to. to happen. The biggest and the baddest. So I signed with them. It was really, really hyped and thought I was cute, you know, like in my head envisioning. This is the type of career I want to have. And, you know, Denzel did this and that. But then I was just getting, you know, and at the time, I was very grateful.

But I was like, okay, when is my, what was it? You know, Matt Damon did this big lawyer film. Oh, I'm thinking. of rounders, but, but, rainmaker. Something like that. Yeah, yeah. The Wend's mind coming. And then I was like, okay, well, I got to go with, I got to be the agency that knows what they're doing. And I didn't realize that it was, that just wasn't happening. Right. Do you know what I mean? It didn't matter what agency I was with.

I don't feel like it started happening into like a couple of years ago. Oh, and we'll see, you know, hopefully it'll stay, but it's a trend. Yeah. Right. Well, just because Hollywood is like a school of fish, right? It swims to whatever sparkly. And the same people that would say to you five years ago, oh, black movies don't. Like, I mean, I just remember, like, reading about straight out of Compton, and all the studios that were like,

this movie's not going to make any money. You know, it's definitely not going to make any money overseas. We're only going to spend this much money on it. And then it was just like this massive fucking juggernaut. And then right after that, some other, like, all black cast movie just opened like crazy. But, like you said, it's a trend, but I still think Hollywood will go back and, well, like,

that only works because it was this. Oh, totally. That's what will make it a trend. They won't, yeah. These people. But it's just, it's so, it's so. These people. Well, and just the idea that like our stories aren't American stories, right?

Like a black story is just a black story. It's not an American story. So it's not a universal story. I think that's the thing that everybody is so stuck in here. And, yeah. You can't. I mean, if you, I try, it can really, it's a drag. And it can really bring you down.

It's almost. So, you know, that's been. my challenge slash struggle is being aware enough. Because when I was a kid, I was like, ignorance is bliss. So don't bring me down. Don't come to me. When I was doing well and I started out, I literally said, you know, don't come to me with, you know, black roles and how come we can't.

Like I said, I'm doing well. So stop complaining. Get up off your ass and let's do. Let's get down to business. If I can do it, you can do it. And then I gained, you know, then I opened my eyes a bit and was like, okay, shit isn't, like, it's not just about hard work, um, um, or complaining. This shit is skewed and we need to do something about it. Um, but then you can't, you know, you don't want to be

that dude where you walk in a room and all the white people are like, oh, here we come. I'm going to feel bad about myself. I love it. You don't want to be that cat either. You know what I mean? He's going to come and make a statement and, um, so, you know, you kind of, you kind of got a, you know, figure out, you know, getting where you fit in. So I'm aware, I'm very aware, and I'm going to speak my mind, whether, you know, people want to hear it or not. You know, and people are like, oh, it's so great. I mean, it's for minorities, all the television shows, and it's the best time. What do you call this, you know, what do they call it? Like a renaissance of sorts. And I'm like, it's cute. It's cute now.

You know what I mean? But, you know, your best man, too, wouldn't have come along if, if, if, uh, how to,

how to, how to, how to, oh, um, the, not the one about, uh,

your, think like a man, how to think like a man. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That didn't do so well. As soon as that did well,

the, our movie got, you know, they signed off on it. Right. And then as soon as Best Man 2 did really well, they signed off on Best Man 3. Then some time passed There haven't been any black movies that have done so so great in that in that genre

So now all of a sudden Nobody's in a rush right I mean interesting With what is it what's the big TV show with Scandal The before that I mean after that How to get away with murder? No it's more Empire

Oh Empire yeah empire empire Empire came out and is doing crazy. And it's so, so, so black. And now it's like, you know, I have white friends that are like, like now my white people can't get work. Oh, now they're all going in for the sarcastic sidekick. Exactly.

Hey, Reggie. And I'm like, I'm not going to feel bad for you. You just wait, you know, a few more months and this shit will come back around. So don't, you know. Don't get it twisted. So, you know, and I'm a say I'll say that. I will say that. I will say if, you know, if Empire hadn't done so well.

Because you can get away, you know, the Shonda Rhyme stuff. She plays it. I don't know if she does it on purpose, whatever. I'm in no way knocking her hustle. But you can easily say that those shows aren't, quote-unquote, black. You know, I mean, you can easily. She's found the way. She's found the way to make, I mean, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to,

to silence all the naysayers that have said, well, you know, white people won't watch a show with a black lead. By writing a show that is universal and lead happens to be black. That's what she's done. She's done it masterfully. And then they're so populated with so many different people that there's something for everybody. And there's specific types of black people in those shows. Empire is a black show. You cannot.

I mean, I love it. It's a great show. But white people are watching it. I mean, it wouldn't be a hit if white people weren't watching it. There's not enough black people to make that show. So that's what made people say, okay, well, since this is doing well, then we'll try all this other stuff. So we'll see how long that lasts. But, you know, we're fighting a good fight.

You know, like I said, I think the thing that you've done, if I can analyze you, Chris, the thing that you've done, and I think some of it just comes from your experiences, you know, you have this talent that you were born with, and then you have what you've done with it. But the thing that has, I think the tool, like the set of tools that you got, which may have felt painful when you were a kid, have made you successful as a grown up.

100%. It's being able to sail through any setting, any context, and be comfortable in any context. And I think as an artist, especially if you're an artist of color, you know if you're I mean I don't want to parse it out by race but just because of the way the world works

and because of Hollywood works you have to be more versatile if you want to work if you're a black actor you just have to have versatility in a way that a white actor doesn't have to be yeah if you if you yeah you know what I mean it's just for me you know I just think that

you know I mean the empire may change that right that there may be like more diversity in black roles but for so long it was like if you want to work, you've got to be able to slide into this context. You know what I mean? And play this guy and be this guy in a way that some other guys can't do. I just think your versatility has given your stool like 11 legs.

Yeah, yeah. I feel very, very fortunate. But then again, you know, I fall in between the cracks. You think? Oh, I know for a fact, only because, you know, there'll be people out there that know, that know me and know what I can do and are friends of mine that are in the business and in positions where they can give me the lead of this or that. But they'll say, okay, I'm going to keep it real with you. You know, there's the lead and then there's the second lead that is the lead's best friend. So if we got, I've literally had people tell me this.

If we got such and such white actor, they don't want you to be the lead because they feel like if you're the lead, it'll be a black movie or that the movie won't do well overseas. And we can't make you the best friend because you're so good looking, we don't want people to say. Exactly. We need to have like a kind of a corny looking dude or whatever. Right. Right. Because you're going to undermine the romantic storyline and whatever. So normally I'd be like, okay, well, it's a white dude lead.

I'll be the black best friend. Yeah. But they're like, well, you're not really the black best friend. And that's where the racism is. I see. Because it's like normally if you're black, you already are on a different level than the white star. But they're like, you're above that. You're not really black because you're so good looking.

Do you know what I mean? So you're not really the black guy because the black guy wouldn't be seen as as good looking as the white. Oh my God. It's crazy. It's nuts. It's crazy. And some people know it and then some people don't. Some people say it and they don't realize this is coming out of the mouth.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Well, you're too sophisticated or you're just, yeah, yeah. And then the more ingenuous way would be to say, well, you're a leading man. You are a leading man. We can't put you in the B role because you're not a B. You're not the B guy.

You're the A guy. Very easy for you. them to say that. Yeah. And then, but, you know, but then I have to, that's when I have to take, you know, take control of my own situation and create. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, sometimes when people don't know what to do with you, you have to tell them. 100, 100% and make it, make it happen. Yeah. Make it happen. Before we do self-inflicted wounds, you're writing, you're writing your life. You're writing about your life. Yeah, slowly. I just want to know how, I know that you were thinking about it for a long time and you're just starting to do it. Yeah.

How is it feeling to you? Cool. I kind of get it now. Yeah, one thing that I'm telling myself, no. I'm trying to, okay, I'm trying to not tell myself that I'm not a such and such, because I used to say I'm not a writer. And it starts, it starts with that, as corny as it is. Because I can be.

I've proven it. You've written and published two books, so of course you are. Yes, there's that. Yeah, I didn't even think about that, but yeah. But it was just how this dude, I wonder if I can say his name. Let's say his first name? David, yeah, this cat, David. He said, you know, just write down some thoughts on an email.

He would stick with it because it was like, just, I'll write you something, and you just respond in an email and then just send it off to me. So then already it's not like, writing. It's just just an email email. And I started with that. And then it felt good. You know, it was just on my phone. And, you know, I used to say, I don't know how to type.

So in my head, a writer sits, you know, at a computer and types. And I was thinking, I don't want to have to take so much time. But I'm familiar enough with my phone that I can kind of move. And I was like, oh, okay, this isn't, this isn't bad. chapter by chat and if I've you know just kind of you know take it one step at a time and just re you know recount because I also thought you know I don't I'm not this cat that has a way with language and but he said um just write down what you remember and I've been doing that and it's kind of it's cool and it's fun um finding it therapeutic at all probably I'm a cat that

doesn't feel it in the moment. I don't feel much in the moment. Stuff happens. And then and then it hits me a little bit later. But I'm sure it is. I guess how can it not be? Right. But it's, uh, I'm excited now to see, to see what it's, what it's going to come out with. Now I have to just get over, okay, well, I need, you know, I really need some time to sit down and have writing time. You can't wait for you, you just got to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And then do the thing that you, probably are better at doing in your other artistic endeavors, which is to not be doing a lot of, like, self-judging.

100%. Which is, I think, of all the art forms of the most crippling when you're writing. Yeah. Yeah. Because I know what I enjoy reading. Mm-hmm. And you think, oh, is this as good as that? Yes.

Is this even valid instead of just saying, like, this is the story. Yeah. And I'll let other people kind of deal with that. Yeah. It's pride. A lot of pride. You know, I want them to just look at it and be like, it's amazing already. Perfect.

You don't need any editing and you have such a voice. Never read anything. It's Pulitzer. I've only read six pages, but I smell Pulitzer. Evocative. I feel like it was there. Exactly. I taste it.

Now, do you have a self-inflicted wound story? I saw you just curse. I know. I'm just going to say this. Okay. All right. I'm not going to judge myself. No.

I am, but I'm going to try out. No, you don't do it. So it's Christmas. It's Christmas time. and I'm in New York City and I got just enough money where I can go do some Christmas shopping. How old are you?

30 something. 30 something. Early in my career of being somewhat known because I remember I was on the Upper West Side. I wasn't married yet. So I'm going downtown. I love shopping downtown

because I was like where I thought the rich people shopped, Soho, you know, taking cabs, treating myself to cabs with all the shopping bags, you know. It's all about, you know, checking off all these dreams. Yeah. So it's evening time and I love being in New York around Christmas and all the crowds, very, very close to Christmas, have all these bags. And I'm going, picking up something and I know I have to go to the bathroom.

But I'm like, you know, and I'll just hold it. let me get home. So I go outside. I can't get a cab. That's a whole other thing. A whole other thing. Finally get a cab. I'm in Soho

and I'm all the way on like a 100, 100th Street on the west side. Oh, you have the other end of the island. Yeah, yeah. So for anybody, it's not from New York. It's an easy, yeah. In, you know, it's right of like seven, 738 so that's still rush hour Christmas season

so now I'm in the cab and I have to I'm really having to go to the bathroom and I have all these bags or else I would have just stopped the cab and said just dropped me out for the subway but I had all these fucking bags so I'm holding it

and you know when you have to go to the bathroom so bad that like for a dude it's like the peak comes right up right up to the tip the tip tip tip it's not even it's past the muscles

you can't keep it it's like yeah and it's like you know just doing breathing exercises and squeezing like squeezing the tip so it doesn't come out so finally he pulls up to the

to the crib and I got out of the bags and I throw him you know a $20 bill run up run up run up the stairs run up the elevator and it's to the point where you're stomping and you feel like if you stop stomping, then, and I had sweatpants

that had a tie, a drawstring. So I dropped my, um, I dropped the bags and I'm fuddling with the keys. I get the door open and I'm trying to undo my sweatpants and I just get the tip of my shit. It's tied in a knot in my head. Once I knew it was in the knot, like my body just gave out. So just the tip of my shit is coming out of the sweatpants, and I just explode. And I'm literally peeing in my face in the hallway of my house. Going, oh, nope, nope, nope, nope.

And I couldn't. I peed on myself all in my face. to the point where when I finally got to the toilet, I hadn't... You were done. It was awful. But so awful that it was funny.

That is the best story. Oh, good. Does that, then that's... Okay, good. I didn't know if that was... It must have prepared. You're preparing it too. Oh, my Lord.

Boy babies are always peeing. And then it's kind of cute, but when it's your own... I was like, I can't believe this is happening. As it's happening. It's happening. Oh, that is the best.

Very humbling, those moments. That is such a good story. And I like that it happened at the end of a day where you're just famous. Of course. You're in so-ho with your bags. I'll catch a, I'll just, I'll catch a taxi. Uptown, please. In the Upper West Side.

There's money in it. There's a handsome tip of it. If you hit the gas, fine, sir. Oh, that's so. 100th Street, sir. That's so good. That really was a fucking great story. Oh, good, good, good, good.

I could talk to you forever, and I'm so, so, so happy that we found... This was great, yeah, no doubt. I'm so proud of you. I'm very, very proud of you. Oh. I don't know what, yeah, you're just doing, but you're doing so much, and you're very inspiring. Oh, my God. And good.

You're good at what you do and inspiring, so please continue. I could say all of them, and will say all those things about you, seriously. It's always nice to watch somebody else and think, oh, I want to emulate that person. I'm legitimately joyful for everything that is happening for them. And I also want to copy. No, you don't need to copy me. You know, when you want to emulate somebody,

you just think, okay, this person's just making great moves. They're doing things that I admire. And I told you when they announced, when they announced Hedwick, I just thought, fuck, yes, Tay. I think that's probably what I tweeted. I just thought, but I'd be like, Not even in a way, like, I got to do that. I was just like, yeah, like, this is exactly right.

This is exactly the right guy. He has, like, all of the bullets in his arsenal. And I just see that, you know? And I see, I see you. Yeah. I just see you. I want to. It's wonderful.

We have to work together on something. That would be amazing. Yeah, it was a long time ago. It was some movie that you're attached to. It was about a girl, I forget. But there was a moment. I don't know if you were attached to it, but that's what I was told. Yeah.

And there was talk, but we got to do something. We should figure it out. And you're so good at this talk show thing that I want to consider that. Yeah. I want to talk about stuff. We'll chat off line. Thanks for doing my show. Yay.

That was Tay Diggs. And I really enjoyed that conversation. And you can see him now on this show, Rosewood, and upcoming on his series Murder in the First. And I'm sure in lots and lots of other places, he's a very busy guy. They are in the middle of shooting the third season of Murder in the First Now. I'm not sure when it's going to premiere, mainly because I don't know stuff generally. But it is coming out soon. And you can check that out.

And you can obviously also watch him on Rosewood. All right. No apaloja. I don't know if there's going to be. We're going to see how many app. I don't know if I'm going to, I don't know if I did this in the Apolojet in the last episode, but if not, I'll do it now. For those of you who are heartbroken about Girl and Guy becoming a monthly show instead of a weekly show, just know that it was a very painful decision for me to make. I'm going through this. I'm in a very interesting period of my life. Not that it's all about me, but let's just make it about me for 60 seconds, where I am doing lots and lots of things, and I'm worried that I'm not doing all of them as well as I could be doing them. And I also have some creative goals.

that I'm set for myself for down the line, that I want to start to take steps towards, and I realize there was no time in my life to take those steps because my path was so occupied with other tasks. I'm very lucky. I don't take any of what I'm doing right now for granted. It's extraordinary for one actor to be on four series at one time, and I know it's not going to last forever, and I know that a lot of it just came together in a perfect storm of good luck and being in the right place at the right time. But what I do want to make sure, is that I do my best work in all of those things. And this show, which I love,

and has been a passion project of mine from the very beginning in which I already miss. I already miss it, even though it's not gone away. I had to find the hammock in my life, the one thing that was maybe a low-hanging fruit, the thing that I could pluck and clear a bit of space for myself personally, and unfortunately, Girl and Guy was it. But I want you to know that I love this show,

and I love you, your enthusiasm for a girl and guy, your passion, your letters, your words, your tweets, your Facebook posts, your kindness through this last few weeks when I announced that the show was going to be monthly and some people were pissing and moaning about the fact that the, you know, the archive was subscription only now and pissing and moaning about the fact that they couldn't get access to those episodes, that almost everybody was like, hey, we understand why you're doing this and where you're coming from. And so I just want to thank you for taking the time out to reach out to me. You know, nothing lasts forever.

and I'm trying to do the best I can at everything that I'm doing. But do know that I'm not letting the show go because I don't love it. I'm letting it diminish slightly so that I can pursue some other artistic pursuits. And I only have one run. We all only have one run on this planet, one life. And we have to constantly be recalibrating as to where we want to put our energy and what dreams we want to pursue. And it was clear to me if I wanted to start to move in some of these other directions

that I was just going to have to make a hole. So that's what happened. That's what's going on. And I encourage all of you in the time that you have available to you to pursue your own dreams. I don't want to turn into a greeting card now, but that's been an ongoing theme of this show, is the pursuit of personal satisfaction and whatever that area may be. I encourage you not to wait. I encourage you to look around at what is keeping you from chasing your dreams and pursuing your goals

and eliminate those things and clear a run-wise. for your dreams. Clear the runway for your own joy because no one is going to do that for you. You guys are awesome. You are my army. You are the greatest. Welcome to 2016. Let's all get out in the street and kick massive fucking ass. And I'll touch you on the next one. Late. Girl on Guy is a production of Hot Machine, blowing shit up since 2009.