Girl on Guy with Aisha Tyler - girl on guy 214: dave navarro

Episode Date: April 23, 2016

join iconic axe man dave navarro of jane's addiction and ink master and aisha as they drive through tragedy, transformation, trials and triumph, and the reunion of jane's addiction. plus dave finds strength and transcendence in facing down the events that changed his life forever in one terrible, violent night when he was young, in the documentary "mourning son." girl on guy is trying to avoid slow motion sickness.

Hey, everybody. For those of you who are a long-time girl-on guy listeners, you know that I've been talking about becoming a feature director for a long time. And I am so excited because that day has finally come. I'm going to be directing my very first feature film entitled Access this summer. And I'm going to do it in the most independent way possible. The same way that I've made this show for years now, I'm going to be kickstarting my movie. So you can check out my Kickstarter page. It's kickstarter.com slash access film. to learn more about the movie and how you can participate. I'm sure lots of you are already familiar with the Kickstarter platform, but if you're not, it makes perfect sense for the Girl and Guy Army because you can contribute at whatever level you're able in whatever way you want, and there's all kinds of awesome rewards. We're going to be giving away posters and T-shirts and books and trips and all kinds of opportunities for you to be a part of this endeavor.

I wanted to make my first movie, my own movie, the same way I've always made Girl on Guy, personal, independent, and utterly defiant of the system. and I want you guys to be a part of it. It's going to be such an incredible experience. I'm going to take you along every step of the way. So go check it out. It's kickstarter.com slash access film.

There's going to be all kinds of incredible ways to participate and benefit from this experience. And you guys can be a part of making my very first movie. You've been there with Girl and Guy from the start. You guys are awesome. You have been the reason why I keep making this show. And I hope that you'll be the reason why I make my very first film. So visit kickstarter.com slash access film and follow me on Twitter, Facebook, and Tumblr for

ongoing updates as I put my movie together and shoot it this summer. You guys are my army. You're a legion. This is Girl on Guy. Hey, everybody. This is episode 214 of Girl on Guy. Welcome to the show. I am talking to you from my lovely and capacious hotel room in New York, where I am here to go to the Superman versus Batman premiere. And if you don't think that I... My panties are in a damp and emotional wad over this. Well, then you are highly mistaken. I cannot wait.

I love shit like this. I'm stoked to be here. I hosted the Batman versus Superman panel at Comic Con last summer. And now I'm at the premiere. Well, I'm not at the premiere. I'm in my room. But in a minute, I'm going to leap up and put on a dress and run out the door and go to the premiere and plots, plots, plots, plots. That's what I'm going to do.

I am unabashed. I am unafraid to be emotional. I am unafraid to be enthusiastic. I do not mind, I do not, I do not mind nor object, well, not naivete, but, you know, ingenuousness. Why not? Life is short. Why not get stoked about stuff that you love? So that's what's happening in just a few minutes. But before that, I want to let you know that this episode of Girl on Guy is with Jane's addiction guitarist, Dave, and also solo artist and Red Hot Chili Pepper's guitarist.

Okay, he's just read on the whole, as a whole, Dave Navarro. And before I get into that conversation, I want to remind you that you can, A, see me in a variety of places, including every Wednesday night on criminal minds, every Thursday night on Archer on FX, and starting, I think, in May, on the new season of Whose Line Is In Anyway, and, of course, every single day on CBS on The Talk. So there are lots of ways to connect with me, even though Girl on Guy has become a monthly show and has stopping a weekly show, you still have lots of other opportunities to check. to check me out. So do that, and you can follow me on Facebook and Twitter to find out more about what's going on. This episode of Girl on Guy is brought to you by Audible. And Audible is a long time, an ongoing, an enthusiastic supporter of Girl on Guy, and I thank them for their ongoing support. It's great to have a company believe in the podcast as much as I do and as much as you do, so I thank them for that. And you know, when you avail yourself of these offers, you are letting these advertisers know that supporting Girl on Guy is a good choice for their company. You can go to audible.com slash Girl on Guy to get

free 30-day trial of Audible and go get an audiobook of your choosing to listen to and enjoy at your leisure. You know, I read my own audiobook for self-inflicted wounds. That is always an option for you and a great choice. I'm not going to dissuade you from that choice. That's your best choice. But there are lots of other choices on there, including several authors that have appeared on Girl on Guy in the past, such as Dave Eggers and Anthony Bourdain and Taye Diggs and Brad Nass. Meltzer, lots of opportunities, Kelly Carlin, lots of opportunities for you to avail yourself of writers that have appeared on this show by visiting audible.com slash girl on guide to get your free 30-day trial. I always recommend a book, but I'm not going to do that this year. I'm just going to encourage you to go to audible.com slash girl on guy and check out what is available to you there,

because there's so much awesome stuff on audible. Whatever writer you love, they probably have a version of their book. I think last month I was talking, or the last time I talked about Audible, I was talking about Neil Gaiman and his books. I've recommended Susan Cain's Quiet before on the show if you want to learn more about introverts and clinical introversion. But there's just so many cool things on there. And it's really, look, the world is your fucking oyster. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, what are you waiting for? Go get on there and get yours. Whatever you want to listen to in your car or on the beach or in the shower if you have some kind of waterproof apparatus for precisely such an occasion. You can do it. And all you have to do is go to audible.com

slash girl on guy to get your free 30-day trial courtesy of audible and yours truly. So check it out. They have been a long-time supporter of the show and they are great and you are great. And it seems utterly apparent to me that you should come together in Audible book deliciousness. So visit audible.com slash girl and guy for your free 30-day trial. Check that out. All right, as mentioned, this episode is with a guitarist, musician, filmmaker, and all-around, very, very compelling artist, Dave Navarro. He's got a new film out about a really, really traumatic experience that happened to him when he was young. And it's not a secret, but we talk about it in great detail. The film is called Morning Sun, and it is documentary about the murder of his mother when he was.

is 15. It is an incredibly compelling movie. You can see it now on iTunes, and I'll put links on the website. We talk about the film, and about the experience about what happened to him, about this terrible, traumatic, awful nightmare of an experience that happened to him, and it was a young person, and how he recovered from it, how it affected him, and lots of stuff about his life. But I encourage you to watch the movie, because this is really a companion to that. It doesn't supplant watching that film, which goes into what happened in great depth. And it's a very emotional film and really meaningful. So check that out. It's called Morning Sun. It's available now on a variety of platforms. I watched it on iTunes. But you probably know Dave Navarro as a guitarist singer-songwriter. He

was a founding member of the band James Addiction, which is back together now in touring, and also a former member of the Red Hot Chili Peppers and all kinds of other cool bands, including collaborations with nine-inch nails and Marilyn Manson, Guns and Roses, Dan & Jackson, lots of cool, cool stuff. Anyway, this is a great conversation, and he's very forthcoming and present, and it was really really an honor to sit down with him, and I loved having this conversation, and I know you're going to enjoy it. So here it comes, this is Girl and Guy, 214, with musician, guitarist, singer-songwriter, and actor, Dave Navarro, coming at you straight out of my hotel room in New York City and right into your face.

Rock and roll. Dave Navarro, welcome to my show. Good to see you. I'm really excited to have you here. And we're going to go back to the beginning, I think, but I want to say something about you that I find so compelling, because I feel like people obviously know you as a magician.

But looking at like everything you've done, especially like in the last decade, I feel like you're really like a polymathic. You're doing a lot of shit. I don't know how I fell into doing that, but yeah, I really do. just kind of go after what's interesting to me. And I think what I find is that doing one particular artistic endeavor or program or process kind of speaks to the other.

So, yes, I'm a musician and that's my whole thing and that's what I started off doing. But getting into filmmaking helps me look at music differently. Getting into television helps me look into filmmaking and music differently. And having a radio show helps me. stay in the moment. So there's, there's advantages to all that. The only disadvantage is that I have very, very little time to myself. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, there's so many interesting things about that approach to life. One of them is like, do you find that doing all those different things also activates different parts of your brain? Like, I imagine music cannot, not get boring, but if you have an incredible proficiency at it, maybe it doesn't challenge you as much as it might have

when you were younger. It becomes challenging on different levels. Like, it used to be technically, musically speaking, it was challenging. Then it became about the live performance and that became challenging.

Then it became about recording and that was challenging. And now sometimes it's just challenging to get on the bus. Yeah, exactly. Especially knowing that you're with the same people because it becomes a family. And in a lot of ways,

a band dynamic becomes a very dysfunctional family. So you love these people like brothers and siblings, but you have a very dysfunctional relationship with them. So you need each other to move forward, yet at times you can't stand each other. And that becomes more challenging on a human level rather than in terms of your profession. God, that's so interesting.

I was just thinking about this the other day. So I want to ask you this. Does it feel, because obviously I feel like maybe some kind of monster was one of the first times where people really talked about like a ban being like a marriage and then being like a bad marriage or a failing marriage. Does it feel like that sometimes? Yes, and, you know, sometimes it doesn't.

I mean, it changes from day to day. I mean, the human condition obviously changes from moment to moment sometimes. And if you have two people in a marriage or in some kind of a close relationship, of course, that's going to vary and fluctuate from time to time. Now you're throwing four people in the mix, four or five people, and you have ego and creativity and all those other elements. So, yeah, for sure, it gets challenging in terms of, of, you know. working through that stuff and really being able to own what your part in all of it is. Because I also feel like people expect and, well, they tolerate and even expect for bands to fall apart. Well, we have many times.

Right, right. We've broken up quite a few times. Yeah. And gotten back together. I mean, it is a relationship in that way, right? Absolutely. I mean, it's been either drugs or it's been, you know, combustible relationships or whatever the case may be. and then of course we come back together

because it's what we do, it's who we are, it's what we know, kind of like staying together for the kids except this time the kids are your songs and the audience. Right, right. And, you know, let's be honest, you've got to make a living as well. Yeah. Do you find...

I mean, like, obviously you've done, you've worked with so many bands and you've also done a lot of solo work, but I think people know you best for Jane's Addiction. And I guess I wonder, whenever you guys get back together and money, not money issues, but like, you know, the fact that you have to make a living aside. Sure. When you guys come back together, is it feel like a relief or does it feel like a burden?

I think a little of both. A little of both. I think that now at this phase of our career, most of us have other avenues. Like I have the Inkmaster show and Perry Farrell has Lollapalooza. You know, so we have different things that we do. So it's a little bit more elective at this age. Do you know what I mean? Like we do it because we love it and we want to.

And ultimately it's better to be in the band than to have been in the band. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, seriously. And we all kind of came to terms with that. Like, we definitely were spent plenty of years not being in the band. Yeah. And it wasn't as great.

You know what I mean? Just wasn't as good. So I think we've come to terms of that. And I think that maybe even now we stay in it for more altruistic reasons because we do make a living somewhere else now. Yeah. So then it becomes a bit more joyful. It is more joyful because, you know,

our rent doesn't depend on shows. It's just we want to have a good time. There's something else that's happened. And I feel like for whatever reason, Jane's addiction always had this kind of mythological image or identity with fans and even with people who weren't like avid Jane's addiction fans. And I'm going to ask you about that in a minute. Well, it's funny you say that because I've been talking about the mythological

image today. Just today I was talking about that with how people don't have that anymore. No. I'll let you ask your question and then I'll comment on the whole thing overall. Okay. Because I was thinking about that. I was thinking like even if you weren't like even if you did have all of your albums, I feel like there was just, Jane's Addiction represented something very specific. Yes. Musically, culturally, everything. Yes. I wonder if the band breaking up augmented that mythological. Like it, you know, it's like loving Pink Floyd, like Pink Floyd's never getting back together. Right. So there's something of, so Jane's Addiction going away made people yearn for it more?

Absolutely. And even coming back together, we have a different lineup than we originally had. So even the new incarnation of Jane's Addiction doesn't have that mystique that the old Jane's Addiction had. But also you have to understand that we were on the, you know, within a number of bands that were on the

cusp of the alternative movement. We created Lollapalooza. We started the touring festival thing. You know, we were in a handful of bands that really kind of broke out of being, you know, underground and being, and so because of that, it became, yeah, there was a mystique. But even today, I was thinking about why is it that artists and musicians and actors even have less of a mystique attached to them? They may be hugely famous, but the mystique is something that's very different. Back in those days, you had the album, you had the art on the

album. You would stare at for hours. You had the picture of the band and the music, and that's it. And everything else in between you had to invent in your head, whereas now it's like, hey, getting on a plane to go to Chicago. See you there, kids. Seriously. You know what I mean? Everybody is updating everybody about every single move they make, which isn't very mystifying.

No. You know what I mean? Like, oh, they're waiting in the airport like everybody else. Right. You know, that's not a lot of mystique there. And if you're on the other side of that, if you're feeding that machine, you feel almost obligated to tell people about, like, these mundane details of your life. Like, anybody gives a fuck.

Well, now that's the whole thing. It's like, well, social is really important, and you're going to stay into it. But all it really is to me is, you know, now this Snapchat's the big thing. Are you doing that? No, and my assistant, I have like a 14-year-old assistant. He's like, you really need to start doing that. Everybody's telling me, you got to do it. I'm like, listen, I don't want to be that self-involved all day long multiple times a day.

Yes. Like I've got Facebook, I got Twitter, I got Instagram. Now there's some new thing and I just got to be all about Dave all the time. Right. I'm not interested. Yeah, I'm not that interested in me. No. We're becoming this person who's so turned inwards.

It's crazy. It's nuts. So I think that speaks to why the mystique is kind of dissolving and it's just becoming about famous. Right. And that's kind of not what I got into this whole thing for. So I think that's another reason why I like to challenge myself because I have found that, like I do a political talk show on KABC in Los Angeles. Tell me the name of it again. It's called Politics Fix.

That's cool. And what I like about it is that it's nerve-wracking. It's scary. It's moment to moment. You know, there's that energy that happens that I don't, to be honest, after 30 years of playing music, I don't have that when I step on stage. Shooting Inkmaster, knowing that we're filming it and editing it and putting it out. I'm not nervous and there's not that friction in the air. But when you're doing live radio, and it's also a brand new world for me to be speaking publicly about that kind of thing.

there's that electric fear-based thing that you want to overcome that's kind of exciting and kind of one of the things I became addicted to when I got into this world. Addicted is the best word for it, and I feel like certain people need an element of fear in their lives at all times. And I don't think that's necessarily negative. I feel like fear can spur growth. Well, fear is the umbrella word, but within fear is just, being anxious and nervous and excited and unsure.

I mean, it doesn't have to be this terrifying thing. You know, that's the umbrella word. And, yeah, I need to exist somewhere in the umbrella. Hopefully on the outside of it, not quite right underneath it. It's gripping. That's no good. I want to circle back to the word fear because I feel like that'll bring us into, I mean, that was like an overarching theme in the film.

Oh, sure, sure, sure. But before we get to that, you were talking about a little bit more about the mystique of Jane's addiction. And I guess the thing I wanted to ask you about was I really thought a lot about the name and then about kind of your public mistake, your personal mythology. So this is a stupid question. So I'm just going to, I'll just ask it because I sound like a 15-year-old. Like that name of that band invokes a very specific kind of narrative, right?

I think by design, yeah. Okay. So of course the question is, was it by design? Yeah. And then I guess the second question was. I mean, it certainly wasn't a double on top. And it wasn't like supposed to be subtle. She didn't get it.

It's like addiction like she's a drug addict or like she's a drug addict. Right. There's only one way to go with that. So secondarily, I wonder if, I wonder where in your own personal relationship with drugs and as a band where that came in. But also, did you or the band ever feel like you had to live up to that? No. No. Okay.

Never. I mean, I think the reality is that we were far worse than anybody could have possibly imagined. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. No, there was never, I mean, you know, we're in a different time, you know, we came up at a time and certainly in today's culture, it's not necessarily a cool thing to be destroying your life. Right. You know what I mean? Thankfully, that's not the way it is anymore. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact like we're talking about, like the artistry and just personalities are so open these days that they're, you know, we don't as fans fill in the void anymore in our mental imagery.

We can see exactly what everybody's doing in between. And you can see the aftermath, right? Yeah, for sure. There's the idea of the myth of the party, but you can see what happens the next day. Yeah, for sure. And no, I mean, listen, when you're strapped with a drug addiction, you don't have to live up to anything because it's got you. And you're coming along whether you like it or not.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. In my case, it was a full-blown drug. addiction and I there was no choosing in a matter right I couldn't you know I couldn't I couldn't inflated it I couldn't deflated it it it dictated what my life was going to be I've with my experience with people in my life who had addiction and um you know things I've read and things I've studied I do I wonder and I even a little bit of what was addressed in morning sun it felt um like that became the structure that became the structure of the day like everyone who I know

who is working through addiction is like the structure was about that. Oh yeah. I got high in between the cracks. Full-time job. Full-time job. Stuff that's stuck in between the cracks of getting high. Work was in between. Life was in between.

Friends were in between. I mean, it's a full-time job. And, you know, it becomes a coping mechanism. But even more so than that, if there is traumatic, if there's a traumatic experience that you can point to, that experience becomes an excuse. Right. You know, because I had this tragic.

event happened when I was a kid, and I became a drug addict. And while I'm a drug addict, I can say, you know what, what do you expect? This tragic thing happened. Between you and me and whoever's listening, I was well on my way to being a drug addict prior to any tragic event. Not to mention, it would be unfair to the millions of people who suffer trauma that don't become drug addicts out there. Tragedy doesn't equal drug addict, but in a lot of cases, it does equal an excuse to get away with pretty much anything you want to do. Right. framed within the right, you know, in the right way. You know, it's manipulation.

Yeah. Yeah. And which is kind of a big aspect of the addiction paradigm, which is like, how can I make all this work for me and my addiction? No doubt in my mind, do I believe that it is a disease and there is a, you know, that component to addiction for sure. So I'm not saying that I just use drugs freely and then said, oh, what do you expect? I mean, there was definitely a genetic predispensate. position there in place. I think that once, for me, once I had anything I could point to and say, leave me alone,

which it worked for many years, leave me alone because what do you expect me to do? I think that that may have kind of escalated the using quite a bit. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that. Is that okay if we talk about that traumatic experience? Whatever you want to talk about. Okay, good. So, you know, I was so, this isn't the right word, Dave, but just, I guess, touched by the bravery of your film.

And I feel like, you know, like one of the things you said in the film was, you know, like, I just need to look at this clearly. I need to, like, be in it. I need to stop hiding it, stop bearing it. I think a lot of people would do all of those things. And not just because of trauma or pain or anguish, but even because of, I don't know, shame. or a lot of other stuff that you shouldn't be feeling about something like this that happened in your life. But, and I'm going to encourage right now everybody to go watch this film because I feel like it's so emotionally intricate.

It is. But I don't think this conversation will be a companion to that. So would you like to, could we talk about like what happened to you? So you were a teenager when, and your parents had divorced when you were a kid. Well, I didn't realize you were going to go that personal. Oh, it's too much, too much. No, I'm kidding. Tell me about Inkmaster.

And your mom, your prince was divorced and your mom was dating a guy who ended up being very violent. Yeah. And he ended up killing your mom and killing her best friend. Yes. And you talked in the movie about it, but I guess the thing that I wanted to ask you about was, like, how much is what's happened since colored your? memory of that time? Like, do you have a pure memory of what that was like when it was... Of the crime itself? Of finding out about it. Yeah, it doesn't take a whole lot for that kind of recall to come back. In fact,

finding out about that kind of crime, in my case, and I think in a lot of cases, is that what we're dealing with really is trauma, you know? So it was a terribly traumatic event, but if you're talking specifically finding out, that day? Is that what you're asking? Yeah, yeah. Since then? It's in that window of time. Which window are you talking about? The window of being at your dad's house and hearing about your mom being killed and that narrow window of kind of something, I feel like something that terrible, maybe isn't real for a little while.

It was pretty real. Yeah? I mean, I guess everybody processes it differently. Like, you know, Well, I mean, in that case, it was pretty impossible for that to not feel real. I mean, this is my mother, for starters. It was the place that I lived. It was all my friends changed. It was her boyfriend who did it. I lost my aunt. There was a funeral.

I had to move. I mean, I can't tell you the domino effect of things. Multiple traumas happen to you. Multiple trauma. So, like, for that to not feel real, like, there's, at that point, there's really no, like, denial. Like, I would love to, you know, I think back, I wish to. denial kicked in a little bit, you know, but there was no room for denial. It's like, you know, fight and, you know, get through it. I mean, or death. I mean, those are the only two choices.

At least it feels that way. But in terms of where it went from there, I mean, the trauma of being a young teenager, losing my mother in such an incredibly violent way, to finding out about it, to knowing that her killer is still on the loose for years afterwards. And then every tiny piece of my familiarity is totally shot. And now I'm, you know, in a new home, they don't have my friends. Like, you know, it's school. And like people who might identify with this other survivors, like every little piece of your life is different from that day forward.

Right. You go back to school. When you finally go back to school, your friends, they're kind of looking at you and whispering, there's the guy who's, you know, that's the guy who this bomb was good. Like, all the way down the line, there's some little nuance of trauma that seeps into your existence. And so part of the process for me in making this film and telling this story was to put all those things in a narrative. You know, we talk about in filmmaking, of course, you want to have a cohesive narrative. But I think also in terms of overcoming trauma, you want to have a narrative and put things together in a way that can be looked at and understood so that they aren't these just really horrific ideas rolling around in your head, carefree, doing what they want to do, hitting you when they want to.

You know what I'm saying? Just unmanageable. It's highly unmanageable. So when you put it in a narrative like that, it's easier to make sense of as hard as that is to understand. maybe for someone hasn't been through it, it takes a while to make linear sense of a situation like that.

We talked about multiple traumas, but earlier I was talking about fear, and you talked about fear in the film, and I think there was this thing that you actually were able to summarize or breakdown really beautifully, which is that you have the fear of the actual

event, right? They're just kind of natural fear that was generated of such a traumatic thing happening. And also knowing that you were supposed to be home that night. Sure, sure. And it was just by chance. A miracle. That you weren't there. But then the fear of knowing this guy was alive.

So there was this ongoing concern that he might show back up. I mean, obviously you want him to be brought to justice. But I mean, the flip side of that as this guy is running rampant and he should show up here and try to me. And that was a part of your life for a good part of your youth. I think maybe a good eight years. after the murders, he wasn't caught. I mean, he was just on the run. At large.

At large. So we didn't know, is this guy doing everything in hand to get as far away from here in some other country, or is he plotting the return to finish everybody off? You know, you don't know. Especially when you deal with somebody who is clearly violent and clearly irrational, then you can't make sense of what their next move is going to be. Yeah, you can't analyze him. We sure didn't see that last move coming.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I have no idea what his next one is, but of course we were on our toes for a long time. And that was, you know, that added to the whole traumatic element of this whole thing. So, I mean, the more I think about that, I'm amazed we got through it as well as we did. A lot of times when someone is living in a state of fear for whatever reason, They try to run through it or a manufacturer way to run through it, right?

You talked in the film about not just drugs and alcohol, but that you were cutting, that you were doing other stuff. Like a way, I'm afraid of something terrible happened to me, so I'm going to do something terrible to myself. Maybe as a way to like...

I don't know about that. Because that sounds like, I mean, there is shame. That seems super self-aware. Yeah, it's not quite like that. And there are experiences of shame that we go through, you know, why didn't I do? something. How could I let myself get into a situation like this? You know, so we had, you know,

there was shame all throughout the family about the situation. But those things that you're talking about, I think was, was me finding a comfortable place at the emotional bottom, being used to it, being that, I can't get blindsided by life because I'm already living down here. Right, right. You know what I mean? Nothing, nothing worse than this can happen. Right. So like, we had this murder. this happens. So instead of like trying to run to the light and then get crushed again hit by a bus that I'm not looking for, you know, just kind of hover down at the bottom of the whole thing. And that way, when the next parent dies or when, you know, the girlfriend leaves you, you're already in a pretty, you know, warm, comfortable depression anyway. So you're not falling that far. Yeah. Yeah. And it's fun to laugh about now. That really is like the weird rationality behind it. I mean, you said, you said, that in the film as well. Like there's this idea, okay, well, now it's been revealed to me that that the world is a terrible place. Yeah. So fuck it. Like, let's go. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. And I will say, you know, between you and me and, uh, what, like six or seven people listening to this?

60 million. You know, between all of us, uh, you know, and they weren't all bad times. Yeah, I think that's fair too. I think that's fucking fair. I mean, there's something very human about embracing every aspect of being alive. Yeah. Yeah. And I still do. I don't do drugs anymore, but I'm still like very drawn to the darkness and, you know, the dingy elements of life and our human condition. And I love it and it's fascinating to me. And I still watch investigation discovery, you know, like 12 out of 24 hours a day. And I still watch crime documentaries and I collect art done by serial killer,

stuff that you would think I would be, have an aversion to. Yeah. And, you know, so, but. I think that as long as I have a good foot in the light and, you know, an interest in healing and in moving forward and getting through stuff, like, it's fine.

Like, and that's why in the film, as dark of a subject as it is, we tried to focus a little bit on humor. Mm-hmm. Because what's the point, man? If you're not laughing,

why even try? Right, right. Because that's... You can't find a sliver of humor and... And not even that. It's just a release valve. Like, it's pressure, pressure,

pressure, intense. sadness, darkness. Like, if you can't release that valve at one point or another, you're gonna, you know, I would have been joining my mom a long time ago. Right. And it's your,

but it's also, it's your story to process as you will. You know what I mean? Like, you should be able to feel however the fuck you want to feel about it because it's yours. Well, as a filmmaker, I'll tell you this.

Like, you know, I'm the subject of the film, but I'm also a producer and actually started off as a co-director and then gave those reins to my partner, Todd Newman, because I was like, you know what man?

Just direct this on your own because I can't, I can't be in this and watch it and directed because it's just too much. I might as well get a Snapchat account. Exactly. But, you know, as the filmmaker, I wasn't aware that there would be elements of this thing

that could speak to others and help others until we were towards the end of the process. And we were like, wow, you know, this could actually be beneficial to other people, drug addicts, trauma survivors, domestic violence, what have you. But I left in the humor section and the drug section and the different elements of learning to cope and trying things and moving on because I wanted to speak to other people that may or may not have shame about those coping mechanisms.

Like, wow, see, maybe I'm not alone. Right. Maybe it's okay that I laugh here and there. Maybe it's okay that, you know, I've tried some, I made some stupid choices. You know, there's no blueprint for life and like, and certainly no blueprint for something like this. Right. Right. And, you know, to put it like, really simply, look at this person who's successful and has had all these experiences and has had all of this exposure to the world. And he's still dealing with the same shit that I'm dealing with. Yeah. He's going through the same stuff. But I mean, hopefully to say, you know, it is surmountable. Yeah. It is. Yeah. So I think that's what the, there's a multitude of messages that I wanted to contain. One is that, yes, you can move on and have a happy life. Two, is there's a warning signs. There's a warning signs. There's a.

warning sign within the domestically violent situation that you can look for, take action about. But I didn't want it to be preachy. Right, right. You know? Yeah, I mean, it's personal. And then... It's an art film. It's a crime film that's got a message put together in an artistic framework that I, you know,

at least that some people would say is art damaged to a degree. But that's what we wanted it to be. In the movie, you do something very brave, speaking. of fear and bravery, which is that you go and you eventually meet with the man who killed your mother. And I, you weren't allowed to film it. And I felt like I wanted to know more about that conversation after I watched the film. Of course. Did you keep it out because you didn't want to share it?

Legally in California, if someone is on death row, you can't bring any cameras or recording devices. It's in California. But also, and I understand that that's something that people would want to see. My first answer to people who wanted to see that is, haven't I shown you enough? Number one. You greedy bastard. Jesus. Number two, you legally can't do it in California.

And number three, if you, just out of respect to my family, respect to other sufferers of domestic violence, I am not interested in turning this guy into a folk hero. Right. I am not interested in putting this guy in camera and creating it. scenario where he's getting fan mail now. Right, right. Or when he's going to get a marriage proposal or a movement to, you know, to, you know what I mean? That's not what this is about. And if you look at any, like, true crime television show, they focus in on the complexity of the killer. And there's plenty of that out there. And these guys are becoming, you know, they're becoming famous, for lack of better words. And I'm not interested in that. I was interested in exposing and the going to the San Quentin

to visit this guy was all about my journey. Yeah. It's not his journey. But, and, and to pursue into that, I just wanted to know about you. I wanted to know about what you said to him. I wanted to know about what you got from the experience. I was just so curious about. I went over it in the film, but I'll give you a quick synopsis of it.

It was very awkward. He didn't expect me. We didn't call ahead. We just sat down. I knew that he was not going to take any responsibility, so I didn't look for it. In fact, my intention was to go and sit in the same room with this guy, look him in the eye, and leave, only to have the experience of walking into the prison, seeing him in place 30 years later, and then know that I'm walking out, he's not. And there was something empowering about that. The specific conversation was so deluded and not full of accusation or not full of accusation or,

tears or rage or anything like that. And I got to tell you, when I left the prison, I was, I judged myself. Like, why, why didn't I have an angry reaction? Why didn't I condemn this guy? Why didn't I, you know, start screaming at him? And the reality is, and in hindsight, luckily, I can see this, the experience that I had was not rageful because I didn't want to have, because only person that hurts is me. Yes. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes, I do.

Because it's not, he's not going to like all of a sudden feel bad. You know what I mean? We're dealing with a psychopath here. So if I could hold myself and walk into the prison and look this guy in the eye and walk out and have dignity and grace and look at it as an exercise and a healing exercise, I'm the one who's going to prosper in that scenario. Yeah. If I went in there with accusations and anger, I could have walked out of there more traumatized.

Yeah. And that's a danger I didn't even consider until after the whole thing. Right. That's so beautifully put. Because you, and I think for anybody who is listening who has gone through something traumatic, it really should be about like the victim finding a way to heal. So if that was meaningful to you to see, did you feel like it was the last? The last hurdle?

Yeah, like the last thing you had last fire you had to walk through. You think that, you know, I think going in there, I thought that. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's a murder is just so hard to get over. I will tell you what did happen, though, is, you know, because like I say in the film, there's never a day where you're all okay with it. Right, there's no closure when you do someone to, yeah, yeah. It doesn't suck anymore all of a sudden. Like, that doesn't happen.

But what I will say is that having gone through this process, process has really opened up, you know, a lot of my memory of my experience with my mom prior to all of this when I was a kid. Because I think that to deal with the trauma, like, you know, there's an element where we protect ourselves. We shut down. We don't think about the event. We don't want to think about the killing. We don't want to think about the pain. But along with that is all the good stuff because you don't want to be vulnerable to being brought back into the pain. So I think that I had shut down a lot of the really beautiful stuff. And so after this experience, a lot of that stuff came back into my heart, which is really an objective that I didn't know I was looking for.

I didn't know that I'd shut anything out. It just presented itself, which was, and I will say that, and I don't recommend everybody make a movie about their most horrific event, you know what I mean? But this is my story. And for me, the gifts are still showing themselves. I mean, it's the amount of beauty that has come as a result of doing this film that has come back to my life is, you know, immeasurable. That's awesome. Do you find, this is the most wide open question. And then I want to talk a little bit about how you become a musician.

Okay. Do you, how do you find, this is a shitty question. question everybody, don't judge me. How do you find yourself as an artist now? And what I mean is like, um, we're about the same age. Okay. And that's her way of saying that I'm older. No, that's just, that's my way of saying that I'm older. Give her take a decade. No, we're, I mean, we're, we're, we're, we're close in the same age. And I've, I've really changed. Like, my approach to my work has really changed a lot, especially like in the last, let's say, five years, like what I want for myself, how I want to see the world, how I want to express myself as really altered dramatically.

Of course. Oh, me too. Without a doubt. Yeah. And you were just talking about all this beauty that came into your life for making this film. But I guess with that as a part of this, I just wonder, you know, when you're young, you have all this energy, right? And it's kind of blind. I don't have that energy anymore. You know what I mean? But it can be very one-pointed, right? I just feel like your scope gets so much wider. And I just wonder, it's why I say it's a bad question because it's not really like a pointed question it's just how do you how do you how do you see yourself as an artist now versus maybe when you were like 25 and like in the midst of being like a white hot rock star like how is it different for you

it's such a wide it's such an open-ended yeah i don't i think a lot about this shit i think a lot about um i i can say that you know in the in the public sense you know i will always been a true creative person privately, certainly in the studio and in the rehearsal room and whatever the case may be, musically speaking. But once the song's recorded and the record's out and you let go of that, like, it's all about the heart. Everything else becomes about the perception. Right. So I think when I was a lot younger, the perception was more important to me than it is now. You know, how does this look to people? How am I coming across to people? Now, I mean, you know, I still care, of course.

We all do. But I mean, like, it's not the number one end-all be-all thing. Whereas back in those days it was. And I think that also for me, I am, I've just got my hands in so many different areas that I think that what's exciting for me is to remain. This sounds corny, cornyer than your question. I like to remain teachable in all my areas. You know what I mean? So just to know that, you know, I haven't, quote, unquote,

quote, arrived anywhere. Right. Because I've been looking for that finish line for 20 years. Right. And I do think when you're 25, you think you figured everything out. Oh, yeah. And it's literally like a, you start to age backwards in terms of your sense of how competent you are.

And I just mean like, oh, God, there's still so much shit to do and learn. Well, I, yes, I agree. And part of me is like that. And the other part of me just wants to stop doing anything and just watch TV all day long and never do anything ever again. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. There is a part of me that looks for that never-ending finish line of life.

Right. Where I've made enough money. I have the right relationship. I don't have to fill my car with gas. I don't have to, like, whatever the daily hurdles that we go over until we die, I just want at some point for it to be finished. Right. And then I can just coast for the rest of my life.

But that's never going to happen. No, never going to happen. Just as an observer, because looking at you, you have a complex mind and you need to do a lot of shit. I mean, I think you can want to be a simpler person. You have no idea how many daydreams I have about moving to Cape Cod and having a home with a lighthouse. That's adorable. A lighthouse, right?

Isn't that sound awesome? Super cute. And then just like, you know, just existing and being, I would go out of mine fucking mind. You'd lose it. I would lose it. I can't sit still for 45 minutes. Today I was like, I got in before you came and I was like, I'm going to do some research and think about what I want to talk about with Dave.

and then I'm going to read a magazine. And I read a magazine for like six minutes. I was like, who the fuck reads magazines? No, no, no, no. Like wasting, you know, wasting time. Unless it's a story about you, who cares. Indeed. I just looked at my Snapchat feed.

Knowing your, knowing the Dave Navarro mythology, I think people would feel like the two things were forged together, right? Like you became a rock star and then you started doing drugs. But you were a musician from a very young age. Yeah, yeah. What was the moment that cataloged? that for you? Like, what was the moment where you decided that you wanted to be musician? There really, honestly, was no moment. I think that, you know, when I was very, very young,

maybe six years old, I took piano lessons. And really around seven or eight, I decided to quit piano. I told my parents, I'm not going to play piano anymore. I'm going to play guitar. And I think as long as I had some after-school activity, they were cool with it. Yeah, whatever, as long as you're busy after school. Yeah, play away. phone kid. I don't know if they would have been as happy if I chose the drums. Right, right. And then from that day on, I was just, I'm a guitar player, that's it.

And there was really just no option. I had no backup plan. In fact, you know, the word rock star gets thrown around pretty loosely these days. And when I was younger and I was influenced by Jimmy Hendricks and the Stones and the Beatles and Pink Floyd and Led Zephyr. They were my favorites. And again, this is before internet, before really MTV, anything like that. I just loved music.

I didn't understand at that age that there were quote-unquote perks. I didn't understand that girls like musicians. I didn't understand that they're rich. I didn't understand that they're famous. I didn't understand any of those things that like now people chase after whatever goal it is to achieve those things. I got into it not knowing that those things were available because I was like nine. Right. You know what I mean?

Yeah. It was meaningless to you at that age. Yeah, I didn't even think I liked them then. Seriously. But, you know, and so that's when I got into it. And then at a certain age, my dad, I think this was after my mom's death. My dad asked me, you know, what I wanted to do. And I said, this is it.

I'm doing it. And he just kind of accepted that. And I don't know how it happened, but I just, that's, I didn't have. have an option and it never really occurred to me to worry that it wouldn't happen. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's exciting to know, even if it's just intuitive, like, oh, this is who I am

at an age that young because that's rare. Yeah. And I think that I understand, you know, I probably, I'd be doing this the way I'm doing it now or I'd be doing it at home alone. Like, you know, whether there's an audience or not, I'd be. would have been creating and playing music. And I think that, and that's a lot of upcoming artists ask me for advice. And I always tell them the same thing.

Make sure that you love this because it's a lot of work and it is very, very rare that you're going to make it to anywhere you want to go. That's why my theory is one of the reasons why there's so many musicians and actors and artists that become drug addicts is because we all think, we all, first of all, we're all extroverted because we need attention, right? And we all think a certain level of success is going to fix us and fix that insecurity. And then a lot of us get that level of success and realize, holy shit, it's not fixing anything. I still feel like an empty insecure, and that's why we turn to drugs. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? Like, now what? I'm already here. Like,

I'm supposed to feel better. The hole is still there. What happens? The hole is still here. I really think that there's an element of that to a lot of people anyway, not everybody, but certainly if you look at some of the artists that have passed, you know, I lost Scott Weiland, recently a good friend of mine who was an exceptional talent, you know, so many friends. I was thinking about that. I was thinking about also the fact that, so this is the thing when I was talking about how you see yourself as an artist now. Oh, I probably didn't answer it all.

No, no, no, everything you said was brilliant. It was about like a creation and destruction, right? Like, and not to make it about me, but I want to tell you what I was thinking about so it'll help kind of frame how I was thinking about you. Because I had like a very, really, like comparatively anyway to you, like a pretty straight-laced run like from, you know, when I was younger to now. I was a fan of yours since the dating show. Oh, I was the fifth wheel. Yes, you know what?

Me and my ex-wife, Carmen. We used to watch that religiously. Thank you. were the, honey, it's starting. Oh my God, I love it. That was a fun show to do because I just told them, I was like, I'm not going to say people are falling in love. I was like, you know, people are super slutty. That was my take, and it was a bunch of very steady people. It was the best. I loved it. But so, but I started to find as I got a little older,

like, am I going to be an interesting artist if I'm not having interesting experiences? Like, is this kind of getting up and having a kale salad and driving my electric car to the lot every day going to generate the kinds of experiences that are going to fuel creativity? Like, I didn't feel that way. I felt like I was leaving kind of a creatively dead life. So I started to break stuff. I was breaking a lot of stuff. You did a lot of breaking very young.

For sure. And then putting things back together in a different way in different shapes, you know, later in your life. And that was what I guess I meant about how do you find yourself as an artist now? Like what's my process now? Yeah. Or just did the destruction, was there anything about that destruction in your early life that was meaningful to you as an artist? and comparatively, what do you do now maybe to fill that aspect of your life? I don't know, but I really believe that I've done enough destruction for a lifetime.

You know what I mean? And those experiences, you know, thankfully are well behind me, but that does not mean that I can't continue to draw on them. Right. You know what I mean? Because there was some dark, dark times. And, you know, in weird ways, I miss them. I miss them a lot.

That's fair. I don't, I feel like that's fair to say. say. It is fair to say. I feel badly or... Oh, I loved it. Yeah. I mean, I just didn't, I just don't want to die from it. Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. Like, I, I, I really did have some really great experiences. The sad part was that my family and friends were devastated and I was killing myself. So that's not working. Right. Right. Right. But I can still draw upon those. And what keeps me inspired now is, you know, other artists, you know, I'm a huge, I'm an art

collector and I'm, you know, I'll go over to the Whitney here in New York City. and I'll spend the day there and that's going to drive me. Right. You know, or, you know, sitting down talking to you, this is not a conversation or a pairing that one would think is, you know, likely to happen. You know what I mean? But to notice those things as being what this is all about, you know, and I will, you know, you and I talking and sharing openly like this is part of my process now.

You also, you know, I mean, to talk about Inkmaster in a kind of a, small way, but like you in a larger way. I mean, Inkmaster, like, it makes sense that you would, that this would be your show. But it's not like your creation of them. This is, Inkmaster is like something is a derivative of you. Well, what I love about Inkmaster is that it ain't got nothing to do with me. But it is. I host it. I say, hey, guys, here's the rules. Carry on, you know, get to it. Like, it's all about the artists. Right. And it's fun for me because these are tattoo artists that are, you know, the best in their field, and they're competing. And they're creative. And I get to be inspired by their

creativity and it really has nothing to do with mine. And I don't really have to be creative. I get to be a fan, you know? So that's a lot of fun for me. Can I get you to explain things to me about the nature of like an inked person? Like everybody in my family has tattoos but me. Yeah. Because I'm a pussy.

Literally my mother is. Well, no, actually now you're just kind of swimming against the stream. You're the revolutionary. Yeah, you are. My mother and my sister both have full sleeves. Really? My sister's whole back. My sister's got one full sleeve, one half sleeve, her whole back.

My mom, full sleeve, a full, like, Yakuza style, full-color style. Wow, that's crazy. Out of control. I'm the only person of my family with no tattoos. But I always wonder about someone who, like, commits their entire body to ink. Like, what is... Are you trying to find out why I would do something like that? Yeah, like, what drives it?

Like, what drives the part where you say, okay, it's not one tattoo or one sleeve, but I really am going to dedicate almost every exposed to a part. of my body too. And you have all, and you're ornamented in lots of ways. You know, your piercings and you have this cool cool thing under your skin and your ear. Yeah, that's an implant. Right. And the two artists that were in your film had some stuff in their arms, like implants of their arms,

which I think is a relatively, like at least in modern times, kind of a relatively new thing. Yeah, well, body modification people are going to keep pushing the boundaries. You know, the more people like your mom who get tattooed, the weirder stuff you're going to see. Yeah, my mom is 70, by the way. Yeah, you know what I mean? She's just getting her sleeve finished now. I mean, that's cool, but so what are you trying to understand the mentality?

Yeah, I guess, yeah, like what, just what drives it? You're really trying to find out what's wrong with me. No, no, no, no, I'm not. It's okay. It's so many people close to me are super judgmental. Why are you, you're never going to be buried in a Jewish cemetery? It's, it's, because I have somebody who close to me to do it, I understand it from an artistic perspective,

but when someone goes full ink, I'm just always like, what's the desire behind it? Well, for me, it's just been a culmination of 30 years of getting tattooed. I didn't aim to do this. And I think it's just, you know, people either fall in love with, it's a culture. There's a culture to it. So people either fall in love with it or they don't, you know, and I happen to have fallen in love with it. My first tattoo, I was 17 years old. It was, I believe, in the 80s.

So, you know, there was no Instagram to see who's a good artist. Right, right, you just went to your local dude. Yeah, I was like a tattoo, sir. And it was scary. Hula lady. Yeah, it was scary. I'm telling you, like, you would think, at that age, I thought it's drug dealers and hell's angels and convicts. Yeah, seriously.

Criminals. Yeah. And then here comes this little tour of 17 years old in Hollywood. But, um... I went with my dad when I was like eight or nine. He has his whole lower torso tattooed. That is painful. Yeah, super painful.

And, uh, and I'm, you know, so it's... I even remember then, I was like, I get it artistically, but I always wonder what the internal drive is with that... I don't know. I mean, I think it's different for everybody. It's very personal for everybody. For me, at this point, it's become just about collecting from different artists that I admire at this point. I started off. Every tattoo meant something.

Had to have some deep meaning. You know, this represents blah, blah, blah. Now I don't care. I'm like, yeah, go ahead. If I, you know, I'm with somebody who's got a machine out and we have a few extra minutes, put a skull or something on there. Right, right. And it's just, it's, you know, there's a camaraderie to it.

There's artistic creativity, ability, technical skills. there's something that's some people say that there's something that's really like there's empowering about quote unquote owning my own body and making my own choices and you know my stepmother once asked me about it and like aren't I worried about changing my appearance and this and that and this you know a lot of those and I'm like but tell me that You and your country club friends don't get Botox or implants or dye your hair or pick out the dress that you like the best. I'm not saying she does, but whoever. People.

Modifying their bodies. People modify all the time. So, you know, get your teeth bleached, whatever it is. You know, this is just what we do. And I have never regretted it. I think maybe I could have had better ones done. Everybody feels that way about it. Sometimes I feel like that fuels the next one.

Oh, I don't love this one. I'm going to get another one. But if you think about it, if you go back to the dawn of man, human beings have been altering, modifying, and decorating their bodies since we can figure out. Since, you know, cave dwelling days. They, you know, and even today, and tribes. So I don't know. I think there's something for me that's, it's fun, it's empowering.

It's all those different things. But at the onset, I wasn't like, okay, I'm going to do my whole body. Right. If the 17-year-old me could see the 48-year-old me, you know, the guy I am now would scare the 17-year-old. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally. It made me also think of the fact that you had this incredibly traumatic thing happen

at a young age and that was there ever subconsciously or consciously in your mind, life is short. I really have to put both feet in every fucking thing all the time. Absolutely. Life is short. I'm going to do everything I want to do when I want to do it. Now I, you know, there's a caveat to that, which is, unless it's going to hurt me or others. Right.

But apart, you know, I didn't have that back then. Right, right. And, yeah, I mean, like, just do what I want to do because it's, you know, it could be over very quickly and tragically, unbeknownst to us. Or, you know, 90 years isn't really that long anymore. No. No, it really isn't. Yeah. I mean, to be fair.

That becomes much more apparent to you the closer you get to that. Oh, believe me, I'm well aware of it. They're like, wait a minute, I have no time left at all. Every time there's a celebrity death, I start adding on my fingers. Okay, that's, I don't know, I had 12 years. What's the difference? Twelve years ago, yeah, totally, totally. You know what I mean?

So those, I really have come to learn that, like, you know, make the best of it. That's really what I try and do. And I try and do things that would otherwise be scary for me, like we talked about in the film or, you know, like I said, doing the radio show. It's scary. So it's fun. Yeah. And I'm not going to shy away from something because I'm afraid of it anymore. Right.

Right, right. I mean, I run headlong. Oh, that scares me. Then I should do it. Exactly. Exactly. As soon as, okay, there was a show called, um, Sons of Anarchy. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. And I'm not an actor. And Kurt, uh, what's I? Oh, God. What's my name? Uh, shit. The internet will tell us, but I know. I know to come to us in a minute.

Yeah. Yeah. Sutter. Kurt Sutter. Said, hey, do you want to be on the, the show. Mm-hmm. And my first instinct was like, oh, my God, I can't do it.

And then I was like, fuck. Yeah. I had that thought of fear. Now I have to go. I have to do it. I have to do it. Yeah. Because I would rather, I would rather fail than live with the shame of running.

Yes. Wouldn't you? You know what I mean? And I can see, and I said this, I can see myself on my deathbed. And I, the last thing I was my, why didn't I do sons of heroin? Why? Yeah. That's what I be thinking.

You fucking pussy. Why didn't you do it? You know what I mean? Like I would mention by it. Like, why, I try that. And I sucked. Then to be like, oh, I should have gone for it. Because what's the point?

You're not going to get to go back and do any of this again. That's right. And I think that, I think that we were talking about this, like, going to see my mom's killer in the prison, was one of those walking through fear exercises where it's like, well, I've pretty much already done the most uncomfortable, awkward, scary thing I can do. So stepping out in front of a festival audience in England isn't really that big a deal. Yeah. Or walking on a set where I can do 15 takes if I want to, isn't that scary.

Or sitting down with Aisha isn't scary, although, you know, I was a little nervous coming in. Were you? Yeah, a little bit. Oh, come on. Of course. Well, I was a little nervous to me as well, so there you go. Or to sit down with you anyway to talk with you this way. That fearlessness, too, it does.

It translates into everything where you embrace something terrifying to, even if it's on a small scale, it dampens that fear everywhere. Because, you know, the worst things happen. I've done the scariest thing I could possibly. But my brain can figure out a way to make it still scary. Yeah, well, that was just you and him in jail. This isn't for millions of people. They're going to judge you. Oh, fuck.

Can I ask you, like, another really silly question, but I feel like it will be meaningful to people that are listening. Yeah. It sounds like a meeting question. Like a what question? Like a meeting question. Like, it's not a rock bottom question. It's, if you were a guy or a woman,

and I'm speaking about people that I know, people that I don't know people that I've related to. If you're just a person who has like a family and a job and you have a drinking problem or you have a drug problem, um, it's, it's hard for you, I think,

to like keep your addiction going because there's so many factors that will constrain you. You've got to get your kids to school. You've got to put food on the table. You'd be surprised. Yeah. And people can do it for a very long time. Oh yeah. And then they fall apart.

Yeah. Hopefully they fall apart. And hopefully, hopefully, and then that triggers a change, right? But if you're in a band, I imagine you've got a much longer runway before you, hit a spot where you're like, this is unmanageable for me, because people are constantly going to

make your life easy enough so that you can just get on stage, get to the show, get to the studio. Is that not true? I wish it were. Okay. You know, because I'd be still getting high. Well, tell me about what that was like, and specifically when you came to a realization, like, you couldn't do it anymore. Well, put it this way. Like, for me, it wasn't anybody getting me to the studio or getting me to the show, like, all that stuff, you know. The scene from the wall that I just... Well, I mean, I know that scene is very accurate, but... Okay, for me, it was that I had money. Yeah.

I had a home. I had a career. I had a car. Everything was paid for. I had food in the fridge. Like, what are you going to say? Right. You're killing your...

Yeah. You're ruining your life. Hey, you're ruining your life. Like, really, take a look at it because it looks better than yours. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, that was... So is it... Wait.

But that's the fast-track to death right there. You know what I mean? That's why I say hopefully everything will fall apart because so, you know, I lost a lot of friends as a result of that time. I've gotten them back since. But at that time, it was like, well, we can't help you. You're on your own. Good luck.

We can't help you. You won't accept our help. And I can't watch you do this to yourself. But there's something to be said for that because I really think that a lot of people do need to bottom out on their own and find their own place of where they go, you know what, this isn't working. If I had to flashback and tell you when I had that, moment, I wouldn't be able to. I don't know what that was. I was very lucky. I was very, very

lucky. I just decided one day, I was getting high, and I contacted a treatment facility, and I sent them an email, and it's like, I'm going to come in in eight days. Like, who does that? You know what I mean? On their own? Yeah, yeah. An email. So please have a room ready for me and da-da-da-da, and then eight days came, and I went. And you actually went, yeah, because people threaten to do it all the time. I'm going to do it in a week. I'm going to do it on Monday. And, you know, so I really feel like there was some divine intervention there for me. But, you know, I think it just, it had to just get pain, you know, once it gets painful enough. Yeah.

We do something about it. Yeah. Because sometimes losing everything isn't enough. Right. You know, because we can continue, we can, drug addicts and alcoholics, we can put up with losing quite a bit. You know, we're. It feels really good at the point out. We're pretty okay with it, right, honey.

Take care. You take the kids. I'll see them on the weekends. Right. And now I can drink on my own. I'll get the apartment. Yeah. Yeah.

Xbox and a six-pack, I'm ready to go. Right. Take care. Right. So, you know, we lose a lot of things. That's, you know, the threat of loss isn't what gets us clean. It's the way we feel. Mm-hmm.

And sooner or later, if there's no chemical or a drink in the world that's going to make you feel better. Right. And it stops working. Right. And if we don't die before we get to that point, you know, know, we have hope. It's interesting that whole, it's interesting to talk about in the public space, you know, because it's a dangerous thing to talk about in terms of how to get help and where to get help from. There's a reason why a lot of groups are anonymous. Yeah. And the main reason,

or one of them, the reason we don't like to do things on radio or on film is because there shouldn't be a spokesperson about a certain self-help environment. It's like one way to do this. Well, put it this way. You have somebody who comes out and says, I tried that thing and it doesn't work and it's terrible and it's, they brainwash you. Well,

the world doesn't know how much that guy tried. Right. We just know your sick, drug addict take on it. Yeah. And if that keeps other people from going to try it, well, he said it was terrible. so I'm not doing that and then they die.

It's a heavy responsibility. Yeah, I hear you. You know what I mean? Like who can't? And here's the other thing. They always talk about certain things being like a brain, well, I don't want to be brainwashed. Really? Well, then enjoy being dead.

Right, right, right. You're brainwashed in another way right now, right? Because the brain that you got needs some cleaning. I'll tell you that much. Seriously. God, that's well put. I understand that better. I just, I always feel like so many people feel like I'm the only person.

ever gone through this. You know what I mean? And to hear somebody say, look, this is what I did. And this is what worked for me. Sure. You know, just do something. Just something. If it works for you, great.

Like, just do anything. Right. But it's, it's important to point out that there's a multitude of different resources out there. Yeah. Different ways. You know, I find, personally, I find that the 12-step ones are the best. They have the highest success race. But, you know, you have to apply yourself to, you know.

And showing up and having a cup of coffee is not applying yourself. Right, right. And that's not being specific on any particular group. So I can speak in generalizations like that. But, you know, it's work. It's an inside job for sure. Are you a religious person? I'm on the fence about it.

You know, I have certain days where I'm a scientist and certain days where I'm a philosopher. Right, right. You know, but I think that for me, I do have a, a reference. relatively spiritual outlook. My religious thing is like, I don't really have a religion per se. I have a sense of connectedness, a sense of the universe, a sense of things being the way they're supposed to be. And I also kind of decided that human brains probably can't understand what's at work anyway. So I'm not going to try and look for proof of it, you know.

Right. To try to comprehend the incomprehensible. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, when coincidence presents itself, do I think it's the universe? Maybe, you know, when, and other times I'm like, you know, hardcore science and that's the way it is and physics and blah, blah, blah. And, like, you know, that's the, I don't know, how about you? I am an atheist, and it's pretty hard to say out loud. But it's the truth.

I'm working on, like, being, like, living in the truth. But I, but I guess I'm, maybe I'm agnostic. Agnostic, I was going to say. You know what I mean? I'm just open. Like, I'm very open-minded and I'm so curious about... If you're open to it, that's agnostic. Yeah, yeah, I'm open. I'm an open-minded person. I feel like, I feel like I pretty much am in the place where I like, we cannot... It's hard for the human mind to comprehend and comprehend. That's what I... Yeah, it's exactly what I feel. And, you know, as far as religion goes, like this, I have...

The way, because I study religions, you know? I went to Catholic school. I'm a huge fanatic of the Bible and biblical history and theology. And you use a lot of religion. just imagery, which is why I asked you. You know what I mean? In your dress and obviously, you know, like in your music. And so I was just curious about it. Well, all of that stuff is super significant in terms of just, you know, mankind and history and culture and mortality and life and death.

And, you know, it just recalls so much just whether you're religious or not. It brings up a lot. And, but I am fanatic. about politics. I'm a fanatic about religions. But what I don't, what I think is dangerous and what I don't like is when other religious groups come at people telling them what they should or shouldn't be thinking. Yeah. Like if you're a Christian and you're happy and you have your set of guidelines and your life is fulfilled and you're happy, cool. Yeah. I'm super happy for you. If you're Muslim, same thing, you know. but as soon as you knock on my door on a Sunday morning telling me that I'm going to die

or go to hell if I don't think like you, we have problems. You know what I mean? Number one, you should be stoked that there's going to be more room in heaven without me in it. You know what I mean? Like, why are you trying to bring me? Exactly. You know what I mean? This afterlife.

Like, I'm the undesirable. Yeah, you know what I mean? But if I'm undesirable, why are you trying to convince me to come with you to forever? Yeah, exactly. So I always bring that up to them. They're like, oh, okay. But, you know, so I feel like that's true. dangerous when we start, you know, I'm more about attraction, not promotion.

So if I'm living my life the way I am and someone is drawn to it and says, hey, man, how are you doing that? I'm happy to tell them. Yeah. But I'm not going to come at someone and say, you need to do this or else. And I think that's a major problem with, with a lot of what's going on in the world today. Yeah. Yeah.

Because people trying to force everybody else to conform. Because the bottom line is, I don't really care what you think. You know what I mean? Like, really, I don't. Yeah. Like, as long as you're not hurting. me or flying a plane into the buildings of the city I live in, go ahead. We're cool.

Think that. You know, and well, I mean, there's some dark realities to what's going on in certain. Yeah, I mean, but that, but that, that philosophy applied on a more minute scale is the same thing, which is like, think what you think just don't hurt people with it. Right. So philosophically, that makes sense. But then if it comes to, like, you know, female castration, I got a problem with it. You're stoning your, you're stoning your 13-year-old daughter because some creep in the

neighborhood looked at her weird. Yes, yes. You know what I mean? Like, come on. Like, it's her. fault. Like it's her fault. Yeah, that's, I mean, yes. That's the stuff that just drives me crazy. And I just don't understand why, I just don't understand how it's gotten to that, or how, why it's always been like that, I guess. It hasn't become that way. It's always been that way. And I just don't understand what's so hard about, you think that thing, I think this thing, it's cool. I mean, we're in the middle of this election cycle right now. It's the most polarizing election cycle we've ever had, the craziest. And the level of anger.

It's insane. That's going on. I just want to shake everybody by the neck and just say, listen, the fact that you disagree is what's supposed to be great about America. Yeah. Is that we're free to think these things? And have a dialogue. Yes. Not a screaming match that ends in me trying to beat you up.

And that's why I think that a lot of these candidates are losing me because they're missing all these opportunities. It's a disappointing field for sure. It's terrible. Yeah. I mean, also when the frontrunner can barely form a sentence. it's alarming. And so there are two questions for you. One, I want to know how and why you got into politics.

Like what made you, I know you're saying it was because we were afraid of it, but like how did it come? They're just not politics, but like hosting the show and kind of diving into it in such an active way. Well, I'm saying that fear is what makes it exciting. Yeah, yeah, I'm not afraid of it, but like, okay, this is something that's new for me or maybe not an area in which I've had. Yeah, well, here's the thing is I'm just, I'm super invested in it. I don't speak from a position from the right.

of the left. I don't take a position publicly because I feel that's irresponsible. I feel that I have my finger on the pulse of whatever my fan base is, right? And so I could say, come out and support so and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I could probably garner a lot of votes for that person. You know what I mean? Maybe use my influence to do that, which I guess, you know, a lot of people do. However, my fan base doesn't know my personal lifestyle. They don't know my tax bracket. They don't know what my secret interests are. So I'm just going to go speak, hey, everybody, come do this thing that I want.

Right, right. That's just not fair. Everybody should be making up, be informed and making up their own minds. But I've always been interested in history and United States government history for many, many years. At a certain point, I started realizing that what I'm studying, like studying the Nixon White House or studying the Kennedy White House or those different administrations,

I would be stunning those things. And then at one point I realized, yeah, but 20 years from now, some kids are going to be studying the Obama White House. Why not just, like, start studying this one? You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I got into it as a fan of history in the present,

like to look at what's happening now as a present tense history. Right. Through that lens of analysis. You know what I mean? And I think that's just how it happened. It's cool. It's cool and it's unusual. It is. It's very hard to not take a political stand on a public platform. I can't do it.

Yeah, I mean, also, sometimes you feel impelled to because it's just a situation is so alarming. You feel like you need to say something because... It's just, I mean, I don't know. What the hell? Yeah. I mean, and we're in such a dark time. I really don't. I honestly don't know.

What's going to happen? I mean, it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it is unspeakably frightening because you think as a rational human being, there's just no way we could be where we are right now. How are we here? You're looking at the protests at the Donald Trump rallies, right? And you got this one candidate who's speaking in very broad terms, not being specific on any policy.

Not one thing. And also insisting he doesn't have to be specific. Doesn't have to be. Don't worry about it. owe you that. I'm running for president, but I don't owe you an explanation. Okay, so you have you know, radical left protesting, which is, you know, part of America, you know, people allowed to protest. It gets, it gets violent here and there and it gets really heated. But if I was a member of that, that wing, you know, if I was a member of one of those protesters, I would say, guys,

don't worry, the GOP is trying to crush them too. Anyway. Yeah, anyway, they're doing your job for you. Yeah. Go home and watch house. a car. They'd take it down their own, dude, anyway. Right, exactly. They don't need your help. They're doing just fine on their own. Yeah, and they're just as freaked out as you are, by the way. I mean, everybody is freaked out. It's just, but what are the options? So you have, you have Hillary, really, I mean, because Bernie is probably not going to make it. Unfortunately, I think for everybody that's excited about him, he's just too progressive for the general election. He's great for the base, but he's just an adorable old hippie. I know. I would love to have more for Thanksgiving.

Yeah, exactly. Wait. Come on all. Talk about politics. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. And same thing for John Kasich on the other side. He's probably the guy. The reasonable, thoughtful, moderate. So these are the guys with the two best hearts.

Probably in the right place. Never don't have a chance. No way. So we have Hillary. Who knows what's going on there. There's a lot of scandal around her. She's an establishment candidate, like everybody else who's been in politics for whole life.

Email scandal. There's a bunch of other stuff. And people are talking about indictment, whatever. At least that word's being thrown around about a presidential candidate. Right. So there's that. Then you have the other side. where the frontrunner is, you know, what we just outlined.

A prick. Okay, there you go. My political opinion, in my... The most divisive candidate that we've probably ever seen in our lifetimes. Yeah, our lifetimes, for sure. And then we have the secret GOP meetings, like, what does that mean? It's like, there's either going to be a third choice, which is some guy that we've never heard of yet.

Right, right. Or it's going to be Cruz, which... He's not great either. I don't know if that's better or worse, then, you know what I mean? I mean, it's so like... I mean, look... But either way, if the GOP rallies around cruising gets him as the nomination, that's cheating. That is cheating.

So we have indictment or bully or cheater. Right. And one of those three is going to be our president. Oh, God. There you go. Yeah. It's interesting because on that side, like you said, it's cheating to kind of circumvent their own nomination process. At the same time, it's like all of the gates at the prison were thrown open and the inmates

got to vote on who was going to, you know what I mean? You look around and like, no, the, and then that's actually anti-democratic to say, wait a minute, these crazy people came in and took over the party and they don't get to choose. That's what I'm saying. That's why it's so difficult to comprehend and to make peace with because the people, right? It is we the people. Yeah. They've chosen or they are choosing who they want their frontrunner to be.

Yeah. That's the way it's supposed to be. Now, whether you and I are, you and I like that or not. Right. isn't, you know, that's the majority of the people. However, the GOP is saying, and you know, you and I are probably not going to fight them on this, this one time you can go against a democratic process. But what they're doing is saying the choices in the hands of the people,

unless you choose that, and then it's not in your hands anymore. We're going to take it from here. But these are also the people that we voted into office anyway. Anyway. I mean, it's just a... I don't know what we're going to do. It's a mystery. I mean, I guess it's interesting to observe as a person.

political observer just to go like what's going to happen. Yeah, I know. I'm excited. Well, the crazy, I know we're wrapping up, but the crazy thing is once the election is over, it's just going to be like a calm, still lake. Right. Everything is just so ferocious right now and 24-hour news cycle and people are freaking out and losing their minds. And it's just going to be like a big sigh of like, oh, that's who won?

Okay. Right, right. And then back to your regularly scheduled. Back to your regularly scheduled graft and corruption. This is What is this? This is the last question. Oh, and there are two questions every time.

The first one is, I don't know why I've been asking you such general questions today, but I think it's because you're such a well-rounded person, and I feel like you have good shit in your brain. You have, you had like, you've had a dark life, and you've embraced darkness in your life, but you strike me as a hopeful person. Yeah? Do you think you're naturally hopeful,

or was that something you had to choose for yourself? I definitely had to learn. to be hopeful, I think. I think that, you know, outlooks like that, like hope, like change, like, you know, it's like a muscle. If you want to go to the gym and you want to be strong,

you got to keep going to the gym. There's no day that, like, you go to the gym and like, okay, I look great, and then that's it, and you never go back again. So in terms of having, like, a hopeful attitude, I think there's a daily kind of a house cleaning that goes along with maintaining that. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. And I guess pursuant to that, you have all these things that you're doing right now, but I wonder what is the thing that's still resting out there, like just outside of your grasp that you want to do? Well, I just launched a production company, and we did Morning Sun. The documentary is our first endeavor, and I'm really excited about getting into scripted film and filmmaking.

And that's where I want to go, because I'm, you know, I'm grateful, listen, I'm not complaining by any means, but I'm grateful for the work I have and what I do and the things that I'm, you know, in right now. But I'm looking forward to telling stories that I'm not in, that I have nothing, you know, I'm not, I'm not the subject of any of these things anymore. I don't want to be in everything anymore. So I'm looking forward to being able to be a part of that process. If that's what you mean professionally. Yeah, just, I mean, whatever it is, whatever the thing is that, you know, like, when I was saying we're close in age,

I feel like this is a time when you start to really think about, what's the shit I have to get done before I depart the planet? Yeah, but if I start thinking about departing the planet, I'm like, well, what's the point of doing anybody? You know what I mean? I just feel like, I'm like, there's an egg timer ticking. I have to like. I know what you mean.

I know you mean, but like, I mean, how you think about this legacy to leave behind, but if I die and I don't get to see how that legacy affected anybody anyway. Like who gives a shit? Yeah. Like, you know, I won't be able to be there. Yeah. Like, I don't know. It's, it's such a mind, a mind screwing element to think about. But, you know, I don't have any like, like, are you saying, like, do I want to, you know. Climb Everest? Yeah, that's what I was thinking about. Is that what you're asking me? No, I just, you know, because you accomplish so much creatively in your life.

Yeah. You know, it's a different, you know, most people are thinking, yeah, how. Hopefully, I don't know, I'll get to go to Bermuda or all, but for you, because you've done so much. I think going into it's a different framework. Space. Yeah? I kind of always wanted to go into space. Does that make sense?

You kind of a nerdy. I mean, I was a nerdy kid. I'm a full on science nerd. I mean, come on. It's like my whole jam. Yeah. I mean, I want to go either into orbit or to the moon or to whatever. If they said it's leaving tomorrow and there's not a, you know, there's a chance you're not coming back, I'd probably go.

Wow. You know, we don't know if this thing's really going to work. Right. But, you know, you can get on this thing now. And, you know, I don't know, I've always, to me, that's like the next level. Because to me, there is an element when it comes to space and space travel and just, you know, just our solar system, let alone the universe, there's something that puts you into the palm of whatever spiritual divinity there is. Mm-hmm. to me as far as being in this body, that's as close to being in the great, I don't know, the largest part of, you know, what's next?

I don't know how to put it. Yeah, I do. Just having a sense of touching something that is more expansive than this plane. And then also being aware to look back down on the earth and see just how insignificant every single one of my problems are from that. vantage point. Yeah. You know? Yeah, I see it. Thank you so much for fucking to me. I loved it. Yay. That was Dave Navarro. We didn't do a self-inflicted wound, but I feel like that was laced all the way through our conversation. Multiple self-inflicted wounds are varying types, and I think you can see more of those in action if you watch this film Morning Sun. And there is no, there hasn't been an appellation for a while

other than I'm going to bounce the hell out of this intro, this intro, because I'm getting ready to go to a premiere. So don't forget to check out my Kickstarter page for my new feature access by going to kickstarter.com slash access film. That's kickstarter.com slash a x-is-f-I-L-M to find out more about my film and how you can participate. This is going to be an incredible experience and I want to take you guys with me every step of the way. The page goes live, the first week of April. So follow me on Twitter and Facebook at Aisha Tyler to find out more and come along on this incredible ride with me. I hope you guys will join me. It's going to be Unbelievable.

You guys are great. You are my army. You are Legion. Come follow me, friend me online. Come send me a letter. Come say hello. It's never too early for the all listener question show. So do that now.

And find me online and say hello and tweet me, Facebook me. You know how I get down. You guys are the greatest. You are my Army. You are Legion. Can't wait to talk you on the next one. Late. Girl on Guy is a production of Hot Machine.

Blowing shit up since 2009.