Girl on Guy with Aisha Tyler - girl on guy premium episode x36: peter mehlman

Episode Date: May 27, 2015

join seinfeld writer and producer peter mehlman and aisha as they skitter through nothing, everything, shrinkage, yada yada, extreme letter writing, meandering musings, inadequate ambition, the price of overreaction and spongeworthiness. girl on guy wants you to know the jerk store called.

This episode of Girl on Guy is special bonus content available only to Girl on Guy app users. Hey everybody, welcome to a very special episode of Girl on Guy just for my premium subscribers. You are the best and you know this about yourselves. I'm just reminding you in case you have forgotten. This episode is with the writer and television producer Peter Melman, who you would best know as being a writer-producer on the massive hit smash television series Seinfeld through almost his entire nine-year run from 1989 to 1998. He has such a complex and interesting background.

The way he came to be a writer on that show and everything that has happened since is so interesting. And I think you will love this conversation if you've ever wondered what it was like to be a part of a seminal show like Seinfeld, which was groundbreaking in every way and came together in an entirely unlikely fashion, almost didn't stay on the air.

Then you will love this conversation. Peter is hilarious because he's a comedy writer and stand-up and an all-around fascinating guy. And this show is coming at you right this minute. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a very special episode of Girl on Guy just for my premium subscribers with the television writer and producer, Peter Melman, now an author as well, and a journalist. You'll find out lots of exciting stuff, and it's coming at you,

straight out of the Girl and Guy Bunker and right into your face. All we can hope for is to try to lose less than $20,000 on the book. an adulterated ambition. Just an unapologetic, that ambition that you have. Peter Melman, welcome to my show. Thank you so much. Tell me the line that you just told me before I hit

the play, the one that you were telling your friend from your stand-up. I just came up with this new line that goes something like, once a day, I like to consider the possibility that I'm an idiot. I find What's funny is if you were in a club and I saw you say that,

I would be laughing kind of like with and at you. But in this context, I laugh because I'm trying to avoid reflecting on that person. Do you know what I mean? Just as laughter as deflection. I go for more of like, you know, self-nerviness than big laughs. I can make people feel really uncomfortable. I mean, there's a, you know, I've been doing stand-up a little bit dabbling.

How long now? I've done it about 10 times, maybe 9, 10 times. Yeah. And, you know, obviously I've been around a lot of comedians. Yeah. But, you know, it's interesting because it's like something where kind of widow little lines that you have lying around. You know, you could throw little concepts. You could just throw in to stand up.

Yeah. Like I'm so used to like, you know, coming up with stories and organizing everything. think so. It's kind of a pleasure. Right. And there is, right, you can be much more conceptual in stand-up, much more kind of like, hey, let's all explore this as a team without there necessarily even having to be a goal. I mean, nowadays, I think comedy is much less, you find your audience, but it doesn't have to be this kind of set-up punch, you know, three-laps a page thing. Right. Although it does feel to me that 99% of all the stand-up comics in L.A. went to the

same workshop. Interesting. I haven't seen stand-up. I stopped going to stand-up shows because I didn't want other people's material to bleed into mine. And so I'll see my friends occasionally, but it is so rare.

I have no idea what's happening. People like, do you know this person? I don't know anyone. Everybody's high-energy, totally observational, very personal. The very personal trend has been happening, and actually the high-energy thing has been happening for a while.

I'm super low-energy. fantastical and completely unobservation. You've seen nothing. Well, if I have observations, I try to throw them in within the context of a bigger story. You know, like I have a thing where I was talking about, you know, a woman I met who had a lot of tattoos. And, you know, it's a story that totally didn't happen.

But I did, you know, throw out this observation that it's, really good to date women with tattoos because then you know going in that you're with someone who's willing to make a huge mistake. And repeatedly, apparently, depending on how many tattoos. Yes. Repeatedly. Tell me something. Do you enjoy doing stand-up? I do. I don't find it difficult. You know how everybody says, oh my God, stand-up is the hardest thing just to get up there and try to make people left. Did you find that there's a lot of things that people are always saying is so hard? Right. Like people, why do they, you know, they believe in this mythology that things are hard.

You know, God, you know, why do you let that stop you? Right. Well, that, I mean, that's, I think, the salient question is why people for whom it's hard don't desire it enough to push through difficulty. They're so willing to buy in to the, you know, to the, you know, to how difficult it is. And, you know, I email Jerry Seinfeld recently and just said, you know, if you can write, it seems to me that stand-up is eminently doable. And he writes back. He writes back, he goes, gee, I didn't know that.

Such clarity from the mouths of comedy. Well, babes in this sense how long you've been doing it. But, you know, I asked you if you liked it because I always feel like. Like, you know, either you do comedy once and you're so, you're just seduced by it. And then it maybe is tough, but it's never as tough as the intensity with what you want to do it. Do you know what I mean? Or you do it once and it makes you miserable. And then you keep doing it like Larry David did for all those years.

And I think he was like infamously like a miserable comedian. He hated it. Yeah. He basically, if you didn't give him, not only did he want laughs, but it had to be the right kind of laugh. He would basically storm off the stage. If you laughed at the wrong point. Yeah. Yeah.

So exacting. And, you know, which is crazy because the one thing I've learned in this brief foray into comedy is that no two audiences laugh at the same joke the same way. No. And I also think that you're not really... I'm trying to think of like the right analogy. I mean, maybe you're a conductor, but the audience, if they're your orchestra, they all have a mind of their own. Yeah.

I think it's more exciting when you do a bit and people laugh at something you didn't expect and you discover something new about the material. You know, you're kind of, it is a dialogue. It's not a monologue. You're waiting for people to punctuate and they're not always going to punctuate the way you want to. It's utterly unpredictable, which, I mean, you know, you could look at that as being daunting or you could look at that as being fun. Right. It's a delightful. And I choose fun.

I choose fun too, Peter. Why? Why did you? But it is grueling or it can be. be grueling, I think, physically, and it can be very emotional for some people. Why did you decide to do stand-up at this point in your life? Actually, I was at a fundraiser, and I was talking to a girl at work there, and she did stand-up, and she was 23, and we were talking, and, you know, I didn't even tell her I was a writer. I don't even think. You know, we had a couple of laughs going between us,

and she said, you should try stand-up, and she was 23. So who says, you know, if you're who says no to a 23-year-old on anything. No one ever does. They know everything, by the way. They can get you to do anything. So I feel like... Persuasive. Amongst that everything that they could get you to do,

I worked out pretty well. Right, right. And you obviously were more than well-equipped. You know, it probably didn't hold the mystery for you that it would have held for somebody else because you were around comics of such a long time. I didn't have an open. I have to admit that for years

I had my own if I ever did stand up I had an opening line that I wanted to start it with So let's hear it I'm sorry that was such I hate when people ask me to do jokes But I'm just so curious

It was something you had in your pocket For such a long time You know everybody is I just come out and I said That I guess most of you know me As the guy who impregnated Roe from Roe v. Wade. I love

I love that for a variety of reasons I'm just going to... You know, and I go on to say that. I said to her, you know, look, you're pregnant, you don't want to have the baby, you don't have to make a federal case out of it. I don't know, that was just like

the first two lines I ever had it in my mind. So, you know, I figured, okay, I have a start. As urgent now, I said, ever been. Yeah, horrifyingly. Exactly. Let's go back to the beginning,

which I'd like to do on the show. Where are you from, Peter? Where were you born? Well, I was born on this very day. Really? Is today your birthday? Today is my birthday. How exciting. Happy birthday. Thank you.

I would have had cake. I should have had cake. The internet would have told me this if I was paying it proper. I'm so glad the internet failed us. I grew up in New York. in Queens. And, well, I always like this because I just feel like I think we all have a sense of like artists

and especially funny people as having some kind of commonality in their childhood experience, which I actually think is not true. Everybody's got their own set of injuries, but I think there's like this kind of universal attitude that all funny people had like really difficult childhoods or they were abandoned or whatever. Anyway, so that's one of the reasons

why I always love this question, but what was your family like? you know, very middle class, you know, very close. We lived kind of an apartment. You have siblings. Yeah, I have an older brother. My father was a general contractor in construction. My mother worked at PS-179.

Oh, nice. Right, just to feel like a very kind of regular childhood to you. Yeah, I, you know, I can't say, had any kind of, you know, Charlie Sheen kind of upbringing or something like that. You know, it was all pretty normal. Yeah. Were you, like, a really cerebral kid?

Your mom was a teacher. You know, I don't remember it real. I know that sounds weird, but I'm kind of, like, fascinated when anybody tells me what I was like as a kid. And, you know, with Facebook, all of a sudden, you're, you know, people you didn't see. since you were 10, you know, come out of the woodworks and they have these opinions on about you or these memories of you and you're like, really?

Yeah. You know, I think most of us, if we're honest, are more of a mystery to ourselves than we are to like those we're closest with, you know? It's yourself that is continually surprising in a weird way. Right. I just remember being really into the Knicks and basketball and, you know, playing best. basketball and I remember in my junior year of high school playing basketball one day in like November like I did after school every day and stopping in the middle of the game like

being suspended in motion for a second and looking around and thinking I got to get out of here okay wait but like like momentarily or extentionally no I mean like like, I think that was like my decision like I needed to go away to college. Like, you know, get out of, you know, go away. Yeah. And you were a junior in high school at this point? Yeah. Had you had that ambition prior to that?

I don't think I had any ambition prior to that. I think that was like the first cogent thought I ever remember. 17 years old was when you had your first moment of self-wise. I actually skipped eighth grade, so I was. Yeah. I was 16. Yes. Well, that makes it much.

In New York, you could skip eighth grade if you tested highly enough. So do you remember why? Did you remember why you thought, oh, now I've got to get out of Queens? I've got to get out of here. I don't know what. I mean, I guess I felt like I was doing the same thing with the same people all the time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I was feeling stifled in a weird way. Yeah. How delightful, though, to have that sense of yourself at that. age that you needed something more dynamic in your life. I think a lot of people, especially when their teenagers, are just kind of bopping along, following instructions.

Yeah, I guess that is kind of, I never really thought of it that way, but yeah. Where did you, so do you, then did you, and were you a good student, or did you have to kind of like crack the whip and get your shit together? I was a pretty good student, not great. Mm-hmm. You know, I, um, I got, I went to the University of Maryland. Mm-hmm. It's good school.

Yeah, and it's really good now. I'd never get in now. You're an Ivy, aren't you? Yes. Yeah, I mean, but I was very nerdy. I mean, I was a very, like, bookish, you know, nerdy kid. Where did you grow up? San Francisco. Oh.

San Francisco, yeah. Okay. Intellectual. Now you can go back to the interview. Yeah, thank you. Sorry. You can conclude the sidebar. So, but, and again, I always feel like kids were on a kind of a kind of a

college track are on it from a very young age. I'm going to do this test and I'm going to do this test and I'm going to take these classes and I'm going to go to college. So the fact that you had this kind of realization relatively late in your high school life is interesting. Your mom was a teacher. So were you like, I'm going to go to college and now I've got to do these eight things? Was it just like a natural progression?

Like you picked a school and you got in? It was just a natural progression. I mean, I was always going to go to college. But the fear was that I was going to go to Queens College. Right. You know, which is a very good school, but it was actually four more stops on the Q-17 bus than I was already taking. Right. You know, I just, you know, like...

When you got to school, did you want, had you known right away that you wanted to be a writer? No, but in my second semester of my freshman year, I just magically walked over to the newspaper office one. day, the student newspaper. Uh-huh. You know, at that point, I was still kind of being the good son by being pre-med. Mm-hmm. But, you know, I went over to the newspaper office, and I don't know, I just, I just kind of knew right there. Right. Right.

You, have you, it seems like you keep having these kind of, like, crystallizing epiphanies where you're just like... I know. It's all luck, you know. It's really lucky. because obviously that was what you went on to do I mean we'll talk about your television life but you were a journalist that's before you were writing for TV

were you a funny journalist you know I was at you know I got out of at a college I got in at the Washington Post and I got in basically by writing a job letter I heard that they at the time they weren't hiring any white males.

It's a long time ago for that to be. It's a thing as I could know. Well, you know, and it was Washington, D.C., so they had to be extra special conscious of it because, you know, the city was, at the time, I think, 81% black. Yeah, yeah. So I wrote a letter as a woman

and used my friend's name, Faith Kates. Wow. Who, by the way, is now the president of next models. Oh. Okay. She started it. Wow. Anyway, so I used her name and I wrote a job letter as a really funny job letter as a woman.

Uh-huh. And they offered me this copy aid position with unbelievably awful hours. Right. You know, from 8 p.m. to 3 a.m. with Mondays and Tuesdays off. And they offered me this by mail. They sent me a letter back. We enjoyed your letter very much. Here's a job.

offer you but with horrible hours a negligible chance for advancement. And, you know, I was ready to jump for it, but they thought I was a woman. So that was a problem. Yes, I would imagine. So then I wrote another letter in closing the first letter and explaining why I wrote the first letter as a woman. And then I got to meet like every big editor. Except for Ben Bradley, I got to meet like all the big editors of the Washington Post. Wow. So I got in there. And no righteous indignation from anybody?

Because nowadays, they loved it. There's this kind of, so nowadays what's interesting is that I feel, and I wonder if you notice if this, everyone is just so outraged about everything at all times. And, you know, I mean, there's just no room for kind of like nuance. You know, everyone's a terrible person, a favorite, a phrase. on the internet is shame on you. And I imagine that like this thing that you did and you kind of explained why you did

it and you know, and contextually everybody enjoyed your writing and so they were interested in meeting you. That nowadays you would have been, oh, it was manipulative and, you know, dishonest and it's crazy. I'm shocked that not one person was like, oh, you know. It was amazing. I mean, they, like, I really got to, you know, I got to meet, I went in to meet with all these editors

and I remember, like, all I was wearing was like a white, boatneck sweater. I mean, I wasn't even like in a jacket and tie. I mean, that's how crazy it was. Oh, my God. And they just didn't know what to make of me. Well, I think they knew you were a brave man to be wearing a boatneck sweater. Yeah.

That's a brave statement. Yeah, it was a nice sweater. But, you know, Washington, D.C. is the least funny place on earth. I mean, it might be a little bit better now. I understand they have a bit of a comedy scene now. But as much as I love NPR, every time I hear somebody on NPR make a joke, I just want to say, stop.

You're not funny, and they're all in Washington, D.C. I love listening to Public Radio. It is uniquely unfunny. And even the things that are efforts at comedy are like the most gentle, like Prairie Home Companion. Whenever it comes on, it's just like comedy to nap by. You know what I mean? It's like the most soft.

soft lobs ever. And then they have like, wait, wait, don't tell me. And the promo for that show, every week that they write, you know, and the host does, the references are like three years old. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Minimum. Yeah. You know, they're probably right now just getting in, they'll, next week they'll be making a twerking record. It is, it's, I mean, there's got to be some philosophical thing there, just about, about, uh, I mean, Not even about offending or not offending, though. I imagine that. Like, that's a thing about, you know,

you can't offend one particular, one group of any kind, which, you know, if you're not willing to offend anybody, then you might as well just go home. But there's just this, you know, just this soothing,

gentle, you know, kind of, don't get too worked up. It'll be fine. Have your bowl of chia pudding or whatever it is that you're eating while you're listening.

But so you go there and it is an incredibly earnest culture. Yeah. And it's not funny at all. But very competitive. Mm. and tough. And did you feel that pretty keenly when you were there?

Yeah. But, you know, I kind of carved out my own areas, you know, because I wrote, I wrote slightly kind of different kinds of stories. And, you know, I mean, I did a lot of stories that, you know, like weren't assigned to me that just out of my own interest. And so. Okay, so what were you eventually hired as? I was hired as a copy aid, but I did immediately get a chance to write in, like,

different sections, some sports and some, you know, and then school boardy kind of stuff like that. Yeah, the stuff nobody wanted in the beginning anyway. Which I was thrilled. And then you would chase this. You just want to get your name in the paper. Oh, in any way possible, right? And then would you chase these other pieces? Would you have to pitch your editor?

Sometimes I would just chase them on my own to see if there was something there. And, you know, sometimes that got me in trouble, not in trouble with, you know, just a lot of wasted time. Right. But, you know, if I had a really good idea that I would just tell the editor here as an idea. And then, you know, I got to write some stuff for the travel section. So I was all over the place. And it was really great. And it was an exciting place to be.

Did you have, I mean, you're kind of doing what you had dreamed of, at least, since that crystallizing moment in college. But I always wonder, like, I think when you're young, especially you have a sense of how things will be. and it's usually never what you expected. But you kind of have this dream job. And I wonder if your expectations about what it was going to be like and the actual experience were similar at all or very different. I think my performance of the job was the unexpected part.

I drifted towards much more featurey kind of stuff. I wasn't doing like hard newsy kind of stuff like I thought I'd been trained for. But then I realized that I really like, you know, writing nice sentences and things like that. Yeah. You know. Being more prosaic. Yeah. You said it was really competitive.

How did that manifest? How did that manifest? How do you experience that? You know, people like trying to get their stories on the front pages of whatever section or people, you know, you know, you know, saying that they wanted this assignment over that assignment. And all that competition culminated with Janet Cook, you know, who famously wrote an article about a nine-year-old or eight-year-old heroin addict. And she won the Pulitzer Prize, and then it turned out that the story was completely fabricated.

Right. There have been a couple, I mean, Stephen, the first name, Stephen Glass? Yeah. I met a couple of those. That newspaper specifically. Yeah. Stephen is actually a really good friend. Oh, my gosh. I mean, we only met about five or six years ago.

But we became like really fast friends. And he's an incredibly great guy. You know, he made this one huge mistake as a very young guy. Right, as a young writer. Just haunts you forever. People don't give you and give him a break, you know. Well, I mean, it's interesting. This is obviously a sidebar.

but like, I mean, this also just happened with Brian Williams. Right. And what I think is so interesting about this, and because you are a journalist, maybe you have a real take on this, is I think there are so many other fields in which you can fabulate, you know, or confabulate, make stuff up.

And either, even if it's something where people don't expect to be like comedians, we get to make everything up. I mean, you know, like you said you can do a bit on stage, 17 minute put on stage and none of it happened to you. Right. People just will be fine with that. way or the other, even if you haven't uttered a disclaimer prior. But there is something so specific

about journalism that people are just, again, so outrage. Like Brian Williams will never, never recover from what happened with his career. I guess not. Never. I feel kind of bad about it. I do too, because to me it doesn't seem malicious. A lot of people really disagree with me and a lot of my journalist friends really do. To me, it didn't seem like an act of malice so much as an act of weakness. And I don't mean weakness like he's a bad person. I mean weakness like human beings are frail. We're just frail personalities. There's also kind of like a culture of never enough. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

You know, I actually wrote a story about this a few years ago in the Huffington Post because I met this guy who was, I met, he was a friend of a friend, and he had just thrown a wedding for his daughter. And all the out-of-town guests he put up at the four seasons. and the wedding was at the Beverly Hills Hotel. And this guy is a gazillionaire. Sounds like it. I was sitting by the pool, and I'm introduced to them.

And my friend says, you know, about this guy, he goes, and this is his wife, blah, blah, and they've been together since sixth grade. They met in sixth grade. And the guy immediately says, yeah, but we broke up for a period. time during, you know, during our junior year of college, you know, as if to say, don't think that I, you know, wasn't swimming in girls. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, don't think that I didn't have a period where I was just, you know.

Going ape, shit, but that was. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I'm like, never enough. No, no, no, no. No, that, God, that's so interesting that there is. So, obviously, you have be straddle both worlds, your internalism and then, you know, also in entertainment. That's true of our culture. I think it's especially true of the entertainment business. And if you've encountered this where you're doing an interview or you're on the red carpet or whatever, some kind of contextual thing where people are asking what's going on.

And you could be on the red carpet at the Emmys with a nomination for Seinfeld, and people will be asking you what's next. And you're like, well, why don't we just talk about the thing that I'm doing here right now, which is, in my experience, pretty extraordinary. Like, you know, I feel pretty good about it. It's been a long road. You know, we've worked really hard. Never enough.

Never enough. Never enough. And, you know, and then, well, the funny thing about those kind of interviews, too, is if you actually do say anything, like, they go out of their minds, you know. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I took that a little far one year at the Emmy's oddly enough, you know, because the year that I wrote the Yada Yada episode, I was up for the writing Emmy. And, you know, then I was up as a producer of Seinfeld.

So writing-wise, we lost to Ellen's. I lost to Ellen's episode about when she came out of the closet. And then the show lost to Frasier. So I made a comment to a guy at the L.A. Times who was interviewing me about it. And I just, you know, I just said, you know, we lost, I lost to Ellen for coming out of the closet. And I lost for Frasier for never coming out of the closet. And, you know, like, you know, I mean, I lost. I got all the shit for it.

Oh, come on. It's so funny. It's just a joke. What's the difference? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, and, you know, like, nobody knows that Frazier's got this gigantic gay following. Right.

And then everything about the dynamic of the way those two characters were written him and Frasier and Niles, they were like a kind of a platonic gay couple. I mean, everything about them was incredibly a feat and affected and, you know, precious. You know, and it's, I don't know, it's also that same kind of like culture of outrage that's just gotten worse since then. People complain about, you know, political correctness. And then the second you're not totally politically correct, they go bad shit. They do. How did we get there on the never enough thing we were talking about? Oh, about being at the Washington Post and how competitive that was.

I mean, I wonder even with something like, what happened with Janet Cooker with Brian Williams that it is about it's not just enough about repertoire you've got to find the most extraordinary story and you've got to have the most extraordinary intimacy with your subject even so that

to the point where Brian is claiming that he was shot out of the sky because it wasn't enough just to say he was there. Right. You know? It's not, yeah, just never quite enough. How long were you at the post? Two and a half years. And then where did you

to watch you now. I moved to New York and I got a job working for Howard CoSell, the sportscaster at ABC Sports on a little sports journalism program that he did called Howard CoSell's sports beat. And that was another two and a half years and that was really, really, really fun. Yeah. But I wasn't really writing. I mean, I was writing, but you know, you're writing for Howard because sell it's not like. Right. Right. What was he like to work with? You know, for me, he was great. I thought he was great and it was, you know, you felt like you were in the center of the sports universe and at the same time, if you're somebody who is a sports fan, he kind of cynized you to everything about it. You know, he kind of like made you see all the hypocrisy

of sports. He made you see all the barbarity of fans. Right. Right. And, you know, for a while, Yeah. And, you know, you realize that, you know, everything you always heard was kind of like not true. And, you know, you grow up hearing, hey, you know, if you buy the tickets of the game, you have a right to do just about anything. And, you know, you'd say, you do not have a right to be yelling profanities at a player on the court. You do not have that right. There's a difference between liberty and license. And then I just, you know, like never look at sports the same way again. Right. He has, I mean, talk about intimacy with his subject. I mean, I don't know that there are many other. I mean, now obviously we've got a lot of athletes that work in that world, but he seemed to just be an outsider who was always on the inside. You know what I mean? Because he wasn't, he wasn't an ex-athlete.

And I think it's much more common. I think he, I think all the athletes knew that they would get a fair shake from it. That he loved that world. You know, he was very honest. Yeah. When you wrote for him, did he do everything verbatim? He always seemed like he was off the cuff. I mean, from what I can remember.

very off the cuff. And, you know, I mean, I produced a lot of pieces, too. And it was a very tiny staff, so I was doing Chiron and, you know, all that stuff. And, you know, he was, he had an incredible mind. You know, he could, he did a radio show every day where he wouldn't, you wouldn't even have to time it for him. He just had a clock in his head, right off the top of his head and he'd go, he'd close it off and would go two, one, and done. Wow. You know, just extraordinary stuff. And, you know, like when he used to do the halftime highlights of Monday night football,

he would look at the tape once and they'd say, you want to see it again, Howard? And he'd go, no, just tell me when to go. It was extraordinary. Wow. Yeah. That was interesting because then you're doing something that feels both like journalism and like television and, you know, all these different things at the same time. Did it change, did it kind of alter your path, career?

wise? No. I would say it was a detour. One great thing about it is that I got to work a lot with Arthur Ayesh. He was on the staff, so that was really tremendous. Is this post-retirement? Yes. Yes. He had already had one heart attack. But, you know, we traveled a lot. I did a lot of pieces with him on the road. And it was, you know, he's as like good of human beings ever walk the face of the earth. So that was really great. He told me, you know, he told me something that I was thinking I would like to tell Doc Rivers to tell the Clippers next season. You know, Arthur used to say, you should never give 100% in sports. You should only give maybe 95%. You got to allow

5% just for joy. Wow. And I feel like the Clippers had no joy, you know, the way they played the last few days. Wow. Anyway. That applies to pretty much every... Yeah. It's a good piece of advice. Yeah. And he was an incredible guy.

But, yeah, sports people was definitely a detour. And it was a good detour, but, you know, it wasn't really writing. So once the 84 Olympics were over and they spent such incredibly obscene sums of money on it, they had to start laying off people. And, you know, it was just such a job that everybody... wanted that I was one of the three last people that they had hired even though I had been there two and a half years so I was laid off which of they just worked their way back from they worked on a tenure basis kind of yeah and so I think like most times you're laid off it's

you know it's it's a blessing you know you could get so complacent you know it's good to get it's good to get back you know like it got me back on track as far as writing that's so interesting. I mean, I don't have children, but I imagine that it's easier. Well, no, even if you do have kids. I mean, I think, like you said, it's like you can really have a set of, that's not English, a set of expectations about how your life is going to go based on, you know, like you said, being comfortable in a certain context or situation.

Like, this is going to go great for me. And then you're not really pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone, you know, personally or skills-wise, although I imagine it must have been traumatic in the moment. Yeah. The funny thing is, I was laid off, you know, Howard calls me into his office, this is on a Saturday morning, before we're taping the show, and he says to me, Peter, this is the most difficult moment I've had on the show. You don't believe him. You know, I thought he was kidding because he was always, because, you know, the funny thing is over the years, he would always come into me. He'd like poke his head in my office and go, Peter, what are your plans? As if he were going to fire me any day.

He'd always say that. He didn't crack me up. So this time I thought that he was just kidding. Right. So anyway, I went to a party that night had a really good time. And the next morning I woke up in the room was spinning. Oh. I had an inner ear infection.

Oh, my gosh. And, you know, it's the kind of thing that. I just thought you had a hangover. No. Oh, my gosh. It was labyrinthitis, as they call it. Oh, wow. And it's the kind of, you know, it's the kind of virus that's probably in your system,

but all you need is like one little trauma to set it off. Yes, one hard night. I didn't think I was traumatized, but apparently I was. Oh, my gosh. And so you had this inner ear infection, and is it prolonged? It was a good like 10 days. So you're kind of flat on your back for a little bit after. Yeah.

Yeah. And we're walking to a doctor and literally like holding onto the wall along a long second avenue. Oh, wow. Wow. And you're young. You're young at this point. Yeah. Yeah, very young. You're still young now, but very young at that point. So, and again, what's interesting is if you choose to leave a job, obviously, you usually have a plan, but when you're asked to leave a job, you typically don't.

But you were saying that you felt like it was very free and kind of helped you refocus what you wanted to do. So what was that like? Did you all of a sudden wake up and going right back to hard journalism, or did you float for a little bit? I floated. and then one day I came up with this idea for an article I wanted to write called The We Just Broke Up Last Night Diet. I just wanted to write like a few thousand words on kind of like what you eat for the five days

after you've been dumped. And I wrote it and I sent it to somebody I got a contact at Mademoiselle magazine and they bought it. They paid me $750. And I was thinking, this is great. You know, I could just do this.

Yeah. And so for a, you know, for a good five years, that's what I did. Wow. But, you know, I branched out. I got to the New York Times and GQ and, you know, every woman's magazine. I never got into the New York. What a bunch of dicks.

I know. And you believe it. Yeah, because that's some outrage. I'm going to write a letter. But this is exciting. I will. I mean, I'll get right on, right on it. And it'll be easier to do because I'm just going to send it to the Internet.

I won't have to actually type out a letter, which I don't think I could even manage to do nowadays. They did reject several pieces that are. What jerks. But this is exciting because you're essentially just taking the issue. You're just writing pieces and submitting them for placement. Yeah. Great. Outrageous hubress.

I love it. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know that if you weren't a journalist or a young writer, you wouldn't even think that that was possible nowadays, just to send a piece sight unseen and. get it into a magazine. Yeah. And I don't even know if you couldn't, you know, and even if you did, you know, they don't pay anything. No, no, no, no. It's going to pay nothing. Yeah, good. Helping to Imposes, like, would you like to write? I'm like, I'm, I have to be independently wealthy,

like Peter Melman. Yeah, would you like to pay? No. No. Let's have more of a back and forth here. Yeah. So you did that for about five years, just writing pieces and submitting them. Were you making a living? Were you going to make a living? I was. I was making a living. Yeah. If you call it that, you know, in the late 80s, you know, like 1988, I was making maybe $18,000. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what I made back then, yeah. It's like, you know, you can get by.

You could live. You know, you could still go out to dinner every night. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, just about make your rent. Yeah. So, and now you're doing journalism, but it's more like kind of creative piece. and they're much more kind of like organically coming out of you. And are they funny?

I mean, because you're always funny, obviously. Yeah, I know that. Yeah. So what drove your, because I think if people had to guess about you and they didn't know, just based on your friends, people might have assumed that you were a stand-up. You know what I mean? Just because, obviously, because Larry and Jerry both were stand-ups. One joyful, one joyless.

So I just wonder how you made the transition from being this freelance writer to, getting into television writing. You know, I did one story for GQ. I very rarely did any personality profiles, but I did one on Gilbert Godfrey, the comedian. I found him

kind of fascinating and incredibly funny. He's a mystery. I find him mysterious. He's brilliant in his own way, you know? He's really funny. I saw him do like six sets in a weekend, you know, with Carolines. Yeah.

And through that, you know, I kind of met a lot of people at Carolines and things like that. So I was around some comedians and I met Larry David in New York. And like one day, you know, I had a summer house and a half share in the Hamptons, you know, so he was out there. And, you know, we got along pretty well in our one day. And then I saw him, I think, one other time. And then I started feeling like I needed like a little. little shake up in my life again and I moved to L.A., which after the 84 Olympics, I always thought I would. I really enjoyed it. Because you're out here with the show and kind of experiencing it. I mean,

I loved L.A. I always loved L.A. And, you know, I was still freelance magazine writing and doing pretty well, and then I bump into Larry, like a year later or so. And he says, you know, I'm doing this little show with Jerry Zinfeld. We've done two or three episodes already. Maybe you could write a script for us. Just like that. I think he just assumed he knew I was a writer, but he assumed that everybody who is a writer who writes dialogue, which I'd never really done. Right.

I mean, if you don't count all the quotes I made up in journalism. No, I'm just kidding. No, I'm just kidding. I know. And so I gave him this article that I wrote in the New York Times. It was an essay about a day I had spent in New York. after a breakup. Seems to be recurrently.

Yes. You know, where I didn't know what to do with myself on, you know, solo weekends anymore. Yeah. And I spent an entire day on a Saturday walking around the city until I spotted a celebrity. I wouldn't go home. Oh, how funny. Did it work?

You know, my friends and I have unbelievably, were so great at it. In the 80s, you know, the celebrities, it was interesting then. You'd see like, you know, Andy Warhol or, you know, Tom Wolfe. You know, the celebrities were really interesting. Right. Anyway, so I walked around all day until I spotted. And at the very end, as I was giving up, I was basically headed for home. I saw Edwin Newman, who was the big newscaster.

Oh, okay. Yeah. But that was just, you know, the skeleton of the story. It was basically a bunch of digressions about life and love in New York. And it was pretty funny and a little bit bit bit bit bittersweet, which is strange since, you know, bittersweetness was not a big Seinfeld. But I gave them that article and he passed it on to Jerry and he had given this offer to several other people,

and the only thing that Jerry responded to was that article. So I got a chance to write a script. I put in one clutch performance, and next thing you know, I'm loaded. Just like that. Unbelievable. So three things. The first thing is that you were saying that it was bittersweet

and that wasn't really the tip on the show, and you know the show obviously much better than I do. but I do think that the the comedy also always had a bitter aspect to it and I don't mean like sour I mean like

there was always a little bit of like tragedy and a little bit of sadness in that show right that nothing ever works out nothing ever works out and that even though these people were close there was always these like big spaces between them they were even in their closeness they always felt a little lonely and a little frustrated and obviously especially George

who just was never going to get his way. Yeah. You know. It was an interesting, French, they were interesting friendships because, you know, even though as a group they've considered themselves probably better than all the other groups that you see in New York. Right.

At the same time, they'd screw each other at the drop of a hat. Deep abiding contempt for one another. You know what I mean? It was just like, I'm in this friendship because I don't have the energy to make any new ones. You know. And a lot of that happened by accident, but a lot of it was basically the attitude of the show. Right.

What was the first script that you wrote? The first one I wrote was when Jerry unthinkingly tells Elaine that an elderly woman has died in his building and that an apartment has opened up. And all of a sudden he realizes, oh, my God, I'm going to have my ex-girlfriend living in my building. Right. I remember pitching the story and saying, you know, like,

you know, like he's going to lose the home bed advantage because he's going to have to have all his sex on the road. Right, right, exactly. You know. And so, yeah, that was the episode. I can also see why that article would have been so appealing because it was so kind of, and having not read it, just hearing you describe it, it sounds like it was very kind of meticulously, like, interior, right?

I always felt like the show could really parse a moment out and make it, you know. That's an interesting point. You know what I mean? Make it into 22 minutes. And this was a day where someone might have said nothing really happened to you and kind of nothing did. Right. Except for at the end you finally got your, you know. You know, and all these like reflections about New York were really helpful.

Mm-hmm. You know, just like I was talking about how like I almost got hit, you know, I was looking back and I almost, you know, got bumped off of somebody's fender. and I was talking about how like in everywhere else there's no right on red in New York, but straight on red is fine. Right. You know, and I was talking about how just the sheer effort to survive in New York would give most, would be like merit cult status almost anywhere else.

You know, you're just trying to die of natural causes. That's the whole goal. Right, right. And not just die of being hit or having an animal dropped on your head, but not to die from just despair. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

That could kill you just as easily. I always thought like the big way to, the good way to die in New York would be to have the ultimate snappy answer to somebody. You know, like to get to zing somebody so badly that they had no choice but to shoot you. You feel like there's a huge portion of people in New York who are walking away from a conversation doing that thing where they didn't have the comeback and they're muttering it all the way down. Oh, yeah.

I'm thinking about it a few days. Exactly. And it's just too late. It's never, I mean, that was obviously an episode of the show with George, with the shrimp. Which was my idea. I see that now. One of the ideas I gave away. It wasn't my script, but I gave away that idea.

But I read that there was no writers' room on this show. So how did you guys communicate with each other? How did you pitch? Smoke signals. No, we, you know, you just went into the room with Larry and Jerry into their office and said, okay, here are three ideas for Kramer. here are three ideas for George or, you know. Yeah.

And Larry would, or they'd say, you know, I like that Elaine story, that Jerry story, you know, and it was up to you to cobble it all together. Right. How did the shrimp, how did you end up giving the shrimp bit away? Well, that was in my last year of the show. That was after Larry left. So there was a lot more group activity then. Right.

Right. But, you know, there would be, they would be struggling. you know or like some george some script had you know a few good stories and george had nothing to do and i was always very prolific as far as ideas so i gave it away right and i imagine if you're prolific then you tend to be less precious you've got plenty of stuff coming out of you so yeah i mean i don't feel bad about giving that one away the only one i feel bad about giving away was um the english patient remind me of which one there's one there's one where elaine is like everyone loves the English patient so much

and Elaine hates the English patient and it ruins her whole life basically. I wanted it to like her. I wanted her to lose her job and her apartment and her boyfriend. Everybody hated her, right? Because she didn't like the movie. Yeah.

And you know. Doesn't she scream in the middle of the theater about it? Die already! You know? And the funny thing is, you know, like I was having this kind of elicit affair on the set at the time. Fun.

Oh, of course it was fun. How could it not be fun? The best. And I remember like I walked past her and she says, I saw the English patient last night. If you see it and you don't like it, I guess I think I'd have to rethink our entire relationship. And right there, I'm thinking, this is so brilliant.

This is perfect. I am totally using this. Right. Not only was it fun, but it was the source of material for the show. Of course, the funny thing is, you know, like, this could have, this isn't myself-inflicted, a horrible moment, but at the rap party, when the rap party was coming up, I started saying to people, look, I have to tell you, I'm going to be showing up with. Yes, this person.

This person. And they're all going, oh, yeah, we figured that. Ah, yes. No one ever has, that whole, this thing, we're, you think that people aren't like feeling whatever kind of crazy energy is coming off of you. It's just a delusion that you tell yourself. Yeah, it's unbelievable. That's so funny.

Tell me, I want to ask you a question about the first season, and then I want to ask you a little bit more about process, because I, as we were kind of alluding to, the process on that show was very unique for television. But I remember a story about season one, and that might be apocry, and I want to see if it's true or not, which is that you first, the first order was just, because you came out after two episodes, Two episodes? Three, I think. The order, first one was for six or four? I think the first one was four, three or four.

Yeah, three plus the pilot. The pilot plus three. And then the second season was 13. The first order was like the lowest order that like, maybe Enion Network, but definitely NBC had ever placed for a show. They have very little confidence in that. Of course. Yeah.

And then I thought that I read that like the network wrote either Larry or Jerry like this letter about all the reasons why the show was such a piece of shit and why it would never work. Did you ever hear that story? I didn't, I mean, I heard something like that. Yeah, I never saw the letter. Just about like, it was essentially like a notes letter.

You know what I mean? Just about like everything that was wrong with the show and all the reasons why. And that he hung it over, it might have been Larry that he hung it over his toilet. But if you've never seen it, maybe it's apocry. I don't know. It's a good story.

That's a good story. Yeah. There's no reason not to pass it off as total fact. Absolutely. I will from that. now on. Yeah, that happened. That happened.

How could it not have? I have a picture about on my phone. But there were a couple of things that happened once the show got very successful, which is that, first of all, the show is, you know, most shows for people out there don't know. It's like a room of guys. You pitch out the story. Everybody agrees on the story arc and the beats and everything, and then a writer will go away and write it. But in this particular case, there was no writer's room.

You guys would just go pitch Larry and Jerry. You'd write and you'd do all the rewrites on your own with no input from other writers? Well, you know, you would talk to other writers about things, you know, or, you know, if you were stuck on something. And basically, you'd rewrite once and then Larry and Jerry would kind of take it over. And they would just take it and rewrite it. It would never come back to you. Right. Interesting. Did you ever have a script that either was many times? Just monumentally altered? Yes. Unrecognizable? Yes. They were at least, I would say on at least four scripts, I did an incredibly shitty job. But I mean, I think that's probably everybody in any job at some point.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you're always going to do a shitty job. I mean, you were talking about, you know, not being a parent and I'm not a parent either, but, you know, one thing I was always thinking about is like how people say being a parent is the hardest job there is. well, if it's so hard, aren't a lot of people

going to suck at it? Exactly. And yet, if you're a bad parent, it doesn't matter if you're like Gandhi. If you're a bad parent, that's what you are. You're a bad human being. You're a bad human being. And also, there's no, look, people feel free to write in,

but with every other job, there's some kind of set of evaluating criteria to figure out whether you're qualified to fly a plate or operating human beings. But there isn't. No one says, like, let's just talk. about your childhood and see whether you even have the basic tools required to parent somebody else. People just procreate like fucking don't ever, you know, and then whoops, maybe this wasn't

the job for me. Too late. There's a person here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not too late. Yeah. Too late for him or her. Her or her now. And then and the magical golden braid continues. You know, unless you turn out to be like, you know, Don Draper's daughter. Right. Who just was like self-parenting. Yeah. And did a remarkable job of it. Right. Right. Exactly. Just a unique human. being. But so did you ever have a script that you turned and then that went, essentially went to

camera untouched, or relatively? Yeah. Two of them that were, I mean, you know, and the one with the implant with Terry Hatcher. Yes. Oh, the one they're real and they're incredible. Yeah, spectacular. That one like I feel really good about it. Like, I feel like I did a great job on that. Yeah. You know, and Yada Yada

it was pretty smooth too. Yeah. And that's a word that I, it's just, or of a phrase anyway, that even if it was in some subset of like the American, like it's just everywhere. Like there's so many things from that show that just have become kind of a fabric of popular culture. Yeah. So thank you, Svengali. Thank you. Sven Jali. Sven Jali. I'm always amazed at all these shows that are on and super popular. And yet they don't occupy even like an inch of the American cultural world.

landscape. That's so, but I also think it's just because the audience is so fragmented now. You know, I mean, I mean, think about when Seinfeld was on, or something like Friends,

I mean, the shows were getting like 20, 23 million viewers. Yeah. You know, a show was a hit now if it's three million viewers. It's just a different time, you know? And then if something gets in the teens,

everybody is like losing their minds, you know, if you get 13 million, I mean, people are falling out, you know? I mean, you know, the finale of Seinfeld was like the finale of MASH,

right? Like, everybody saw it. Yeah. There's nothing like that anymore. I wonder how many people watched the finale of Mad Men last night. You know what's so interesting about Mad Men? Everybody kind of refers to it

in these, like, lot of torontoes. I don't watch the show. My husband loves it. But what I do know is that that show gets like sub-3 million viewers. And then another show on that same network, The Walking Dead, gets like 17 million viewers. And for a long...

And the whole thing that happened with Walking Dead was The reason that, well, one of the reasons that the original, the guy who created the show was named him, not Robert Kirkman, but Frank Darabot left was because they were just throwing, flinging money at Mad Men. And they ran out of, like, they ran out of money. Really? Yeah. I mean, it was like they were just trying to save Mad Men and keep Mad Men. And I think because it was getting nominated for a lot of things with these other shows.

Like, this is a huge hit. And they didn't want to give, they cut their budget in their second season. So, I don't know. That's neither here nor there, but I don't think very many people watch Mad Men last night. you know, the amazing, I don't even get the whole economics. I think it's all made up. Of like what's profitable and what's not? You know, like Mad Men, like they have two million viewers, you know, on a good week.

Right, yeah, exactly. On an average, like a really good week, they have two million viewers. And they have commercials. And the commercial, I guess they sell the commercials because, you know, it's considered such a high-end audience. Right, right. Yet if they're such a high-end audience, they all have TiVo and they're skipping. over your commercials. And yet they make up this thing like if you even have an image of the commercial as you're

flying past it, that counts. Right. That's meaningful. You know, it's a total made-up economy. Oh, absolutely. And I think that like, you know, again, you know, in contrast to when Seinfeld was on the air and, you know, people were, you know, slavishly devoted to a show and, you know, watched it every week when it came on. Although I imagine even back then people would get up to go pee or make a sandwich on commercial

breaks. it's like the technology or the culture is like lagging far. No, the culture's lagging far behind the technology. Nobody's watching ads right now. Nobody's watching them. But they don't, no one's figured out what to do about that. But they kid themselves. Well, there's nothing.

What else do we do? We don't know how else to operate. So we're just going to keep doing it this way because we can't figure out a better way to do it. But all economies are made up, aren't they? Right. This is just a series of agreements, right? Yeah. I mean, I agree that this paper is worth what it says on it and isn't just a piece of paper.

It's fun when you go to other countries and you get their money, you know, and you have to kind of suspend disbelief. Like, is this actual money? Like, you go to Canada. What are they kidding with this?

Yeah, there's fucking birds on this. What's this going to do? Yeah. I'm going to buy products with a picture of a loon. Yes, exactly. Are you kidding me? Two mallards and a swan.

What does that get me? You know? And maple syrup jar. Exactly. And the $50 bill, and this is true, everyone out there. The maple,

the $50 bill, the Canadian $50 dollar bill, it smells, is infused with maple syrup smell. Someone told me that at a comedy show to stand-up show, and I berated them with profanity about how they were lying and manipulating me. And then at the airport, I got one,

and it is infused with maple, like artificial maple syrup smell. That just shows you what a whimsical people that Canadians are. They've got plenty of free time. They've just got free time. There's no wars or anything bad. Everyone's fed. They've got medical care.

There's nothing to fight about. Right. So they're just making, you know, smelly money. Yeah. Must be nice. Peaceful. Right? Yeah.

You were obviously. the show essentially from the very beginning and then when Larry left did you take over what because the architecture were there is so unusual did you take over his job? No I mean you know I had a

big title but yeah nobody really took over his job you was kind of like just group kind of thing did the dynamic change the way that you guys yeah was that something that you guys craved it was just because you worked in a different way I just think that Larry had so much editorial control over the show that once he was gone, you know, it had to change.

Right. Everybody kind of had to pitch in. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like your leading score, you know, goes down, you know. Kobe hurts a knee, then like eight other people have to score five more points again. Right. Right.

Because, you know, I could see in your eyes that you were just dying for sports analogy. I was. I was waiting. Yeah. It was perfectly put us. Very elegant. Was that transition difficult for you? It was very difficult for me.

I was almost a little tired at that point anyway. You know, it's exhausting. It was an exhausting show. Physically and just creatively. And, you know, it's not a healthy environment in a way. You know, being on a set. You know, there's too much food around. There's too much.

You're indoors. You're all indoor kids, right? You're just like cuddled. You know, there's just coffee and cookies. You know, it's just So, yeah, I was a little bit wiped out by then anyway. Yeah. I wonder again, because it wasn't like you were a guy,

and I don't even think really Larry was, I guess. I mean, it was Jerry. And that's probably why it wasn't run in a traditional way, but none of you would really come out of kind of the mill of television writing. We're like, this is how it's done. This is not a break of story. Right. You know, that's why there was no room.

That's why they could hire somebody based on an article in the New York Times. Right, right. It was very whimsical. But gut-driven, like this, we just sense that this person's going to do something interesting. They were gut-driven, which is, you know, you're not even allowed to be gut-driven anymore. Oh, no, there's no good. I mean, all the writers are, like, approved by the networks as if they know something. Right, and, yeah, exactly.

And also, well, there's this thing of, like, it's not, it can't be gut. It can't be like, oh, we just find this person appealing. It's like, what is this person done? What's their cue score? what's, you know, and there isn't any kind of like alchemy to it anymore. It's like... Do you know what your cue score is? I don't.

I mean, I've seen it in the past, but it's like, it's like looking inside. It's like looking at, like, a doctor sticking a scope into your guts and you looking at your own, like, colon. Like, I don't want to see. That's not, I shouldn't know these things about myself. I know. You know, I don't even Google my... I Google myself every once in a while just to make sure no one that has a picture, be, like, through, like, a telephone lens, like, through my bedroom window.

But otherwise, I don't want to know. You know what I mean? And even that I wouldn't want to know, but I would want to know. Because if I felt like people were looking at me strangely, I'd just, you know, everyone's the way you think, was everybody looking at me and they know some I don't know. So everyone's when I Google to make sure. You put the shades down. Maybe that might be a good way to go.

I'm tempting fate every time. It's always in a hotel in New York. But I think how no one's looking. This is a huge city. Why would anybody be looking into my room? Yeah. Or I assume that the windows of that hotel have been like made, you know, opaque or something. And of course, they're not at all.

They're not, of course. They actually expand the image. They magnifying. Like that magnifying sticker. She's stacked. What the size of a human car. The human, there's no such thing as a human car. You guys, that was, I just had a stroke.

So how, so you were saying that year was difficult for you. I just, I wonder because also, like, then you just didn't just get to be a creative person. You had to be a manager. Yeah. I mean, you know, like I was, I mean, I had to work in a group. Yeah. It wasn't your thing with people. You know, I'm not really a team player.

You know, I mean, I had a few writing experience. You know, I wrote the backwards episode with Dave Mandel. Actually, after I left, I came back to write one episode because I had this idea about doing an episode that all goes backwards. And that was, you know, that we got along. We always wrote well together and got along great. But, you know, I don't really want to work with people. Right. You didn't become a writer to collaborate.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. This whole collaboration thing. Was it, was it that Larry left and then he came back for the last season? He came back for the last episode. Last episode. And where were you?

I should have the femurized, but I don't. Had you left at that point? At that point I was, the morning after the final episode of Seinfeld was shot, I had the table read for my own pilot. Ah, yes, how exciting. So you were on to new things. Yes. I read, again, and this is so interesting just in light of everything we've talked about,

that you're, and I've had this experience so I know what it's like, that your experience on your next show was very, very different, that you would almost been, and maybe this language is too strong, spoiled by the lack of networking interference. That language is exactly on point. And, you know, and so unprepared for how intrusive and controlling and creativity killing the process of network notes can be. Was it a shock to you?

Everything was a shock to me. I can't tell you the number of shocks, but the first time they gave me a note, like after the table read, which went very well. After the first table read, they had a note about a certain plot point, and I flipped through the script, and I looked at it, and I just said,

no, I think it's pretty good the way it is, else you got and they looked at me as if i had just you know spoken out in favor of incest oh my god i mean it was unbelievable right here's and you know even before oh f no before that here was another here was a self-inflicted moment by the way this might qualify okay there was i could not have picked the word a worse network for my show i picked a bc and i don't even know why I didn't pick NBC because I didn't want to like, you know, feel. I wanted to separate myself from Seinfeld as much as possible. Yeah.

I should have gone with Fox, but at that time they didn't feel like Big League to me. They were still relatively new. Yeah. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. And CBS, you know, they could depress a pack of lottery winners, those people. But, you know, so the head of Kat, I was with DreamWorks. And so the head of DreamWorks was Jeffrey Katzenberg, and the head of ABC was Michael Eisner.

They hated each other. The head of the TV department of DreamWorks used to be married to Jamie, had been married to Jamie Tarses. They were divorced. Running ABC. It was running ABC. Yeah, it wasn't going to work. So, I mean, there was all this stuff going on over my head. Right.

Of all this hatred. So I shoot the pilot and they pick me up. They call up from New York at the up front and they call and they say, Peter, this is like three network executives on the phone at once. They go, they all call and they go, Peter, congratulations, you've been picked up as a mid-season replacement. I had known this. I heard already. And so I say, oh, and I'm supposed to be happy about that? they're calling to congratulate me,

and I'm outraged that I'm not on the fall schedule. I'm supposed to be happy that I'm a fall replacement. When you guys got two girls, a guy in a pizza place on the schedule, I mean, I'm supposed to be happy about that. I said that like three years. I'm supposed to be happy about that. You know, these people were expecting me to like be out of my mind.

Yeah, exactly. Hilarious. I hang up the phone, and of course, like, you know, they call my agent and they said, you better get the client and line, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the funny thing is, this becomes kind of a brouhaha, and I get a call from Bob Iger. Oh, wow.

Who I know from ABC Sports. Oh, my gosh. From when I worked at ABC Sports. Yes. Wow. Wow. So now. That's a pretty high-level call you're getting.

Yeah. And so he says, he's going, and he's laughing about it. And he goes, you know what, come to New York for the up front. And is Bob I'm the head of the network or the head of the corporation at this point? He's the head of... He's the second in the corporation. Eisner is run as the CEO and he's like second. Yes.

Okay. So I go to New York and Eisner comes into the meeting. And he's got a few notes on the script and Iger was like, I told you I didn't want you to come in. Oh, my God. And he's coming in with notes? He's coming in with... He gives me the first note and I say, no, the reason that's wrong is because A, B, C, and D. Right.

And he goes, he backs off like immediately. He goes, look, I have six notes. If any of them are useful to you, I'll be thrilled. That's nice. And, yeah, so that was good. And then Iger says, hey, let's grab lunch in the executive dining room. So I'm in the executive dining room of ABC, Disney. Oh, my God.

With Iger. And all of those executives who are on the phone with me come in. Oh, that's delicious. Oh, that is so tasty. God. I'm like the head of a corporation. I just, I can't. I mean, I imagine you'd just be slurping your noodles as loudly as possible

or something equally defiant. Yeah, that's pretty great. Yeah, garso. Garso. Yeah. Get those kids, to see those people at the other table, get them, but get them a drink. Right, exactly. Send them some snapple.

Yeah. It's on me. Oh, how funny. I mean, there is just so much weird politics in that world that have nothing to do with the quality of a show. And I think that's something that you don't, you only realize. Quality is like job 10.

It really is, unfortunately. It really is job 10. In fact, they, I always said that, you know, network people, they spend most of their day wondering how can we get around this quality problem. And they found ways, you know, reality TV. They found the way, found a way. Right.

I mean, I also wonder if, there's just everybody has to put their mark on something right this so it's it's very it's not just hard or confusing but like literally impossible for any executive to just say it's great the way it is right because their job is to they think themselves as a as a coach right and so you know uh you know you come in and you're you're saying bolt and you're just naturally fast and there's really nothing i can tell you but if i don't coach you i'm not doing my jobs i've just got to give you know you You're saying, I don't know, hold your head up higher or point your fingers pointily. You know, your shoes should be gold, not silver, whatever it is, you know.

Right, exactly. And they all feel like they do know exactly what people want. And if you don't give them that, then they feel like they're not, they feel lack of creative ownership. Right, right. And then if they're not invested in it, if they don't feel like they, then they don't protect it. I know. And I always want to say to them, you know, if you'd like to be creatively involved, invested, maybe you should have thought twice about becoming an executive.

But this is a do, this is like those who can't do kind of thing, isn't it? The people that love art want to be around it but can't actually do it. You know, I kind of always like the position because, you know, if you're on the creative side, it's like being in the anti-war movement. You know, the executives are like the Joint Chiefs of Staff. You just get to show up, you know, you never wear a tie. You can be a little shitty to everybody. And then they'll write it all.

You know, artists are quirky. Lunch and all that. free lunch It also has to be You were talking about all the shocks you had It just has to be difficult Not difficult, interesting Experientially

To have your first show in TV Be such a seminal show I mean literally like that experience Regardless of everything that might happen Afterwards You cannot be reproduced Right Irreplicable

And so But you may not be aware of that In the moment Because you have nothing to compare it to. Right. And so I wonder if there was, you know, and then of course, the other thing about Hollywood is we like here like to copy everything so you come off of Seinfeld and everybody wants

what you just did with slight variations so that they don't get sued. And you kind of want to go do your thing. You want to write what you want to write and maybe you want to do whatever you weren't able to do at Seinfeld, but you're getting, you know, a set of notes that I think are colored by everybody's expectations of you coming off of that show. Well, the interesting thing about that is you're a little bit wrong on that. Yes, tell me why. Because the other shocking thing I learned is they hated Seinbaum.

Interesting. They might have liked it as fans, but it broke so many of their roles that they resented it. you know, the likeability stuff and like that. You know, I was casting for parts, and, you know, I would have somebody I really liked, and they'd go, he's kind of glib. And I said, yeah, because I gave him this direction that he should be glib. Right.

And they hate that. I mean, they still, nothing changed. Right. The characters had to be likable. This had to be, you know. So they really, and, you know, friends had to be good to each. other. They really hated it.

They considered it kind of, you know, an outlier. Like an anomaly, yeah. Like successful in spite of itself. What's so funny is how you look at television and, well, I mean, there aren't even that many successful half hour shows on the air anymore, but the ones that are, have plenty of unlikable people. And I mean, you know, I mean, you know, I like girls. Yeah, yeah, like girls, you know, I mean, you know, you know, I mean, you

Which I enjoy in a weird way. Which I resisted it for a very long time, but I find it delightful and incredibly brave. And she's, I just remember there was one episode where she goes, she meets that doctor because she's putting her trash from a coffee shop and is, and then they end up having all this, like, awesome sex. He's way, like, super hot. And, you know, like, it's amazing. And then I just let him just stop fucking talking. You are ruining everything. Like, you're just furious with her.

But, you know, so much more authentic. you know, most people are continually ruining everything. She is so audacious. I just love her. Oh, that's a perfect word for her. She is so audacious. And, you know, and here I find myself being in the position

of rooting for a young girl to, for once, don't take your clothes off. I don't want to see it anymore. I don't need that. It's a very confusing way to feel about, no, I don't, leave your shirt on. Audacious is a good word, very brave. I mean, she just could literally not give a show.

By the way, I really think if Brian Williams had, back to Brian Williams for a second, if he had just said, look, I know I did the wrong thing, but I just got very outled brain from seeing my daughter getting it from behind on that Sunday nights. Like he probably, everybody would have said, Oh, yeah. You know what? We're going to cut you some slack. Right.

Yes. I've got posturatic stress disorder because I just watched my daughter get her salad tossed. And so I feel like I just need, I need a minute. Yeah. It would be very compassionate. Yeah. He probably said, you know, you could have helped if you would have gone full frontal like the other girls. But no, not you.

You always have to outdo everybody. So competitive. Did your experiences after, because you created, it's like, you know, and then I can't remember you did a series after that. Did you find yourself disillusioned by the entertainment business? Because a lot of people just keep kind of running at it. You know what I mean? You know, the business itself is, you know, it's hard to be disillusioned with it because it's hard to be allusioned in the first place.

But, you know, I mean, I can't say I was ever disillusioned. I mean, I got to feel like I have had the most, you know, a completely lucky experience of all time. You know, there are things that, you know, they're disillusioning things. There are problems. There are a lot of people and there's a lot of money at stake. And, you know, it's rough.

And the worst thing is to not be able to fulfill some kind of creative vision. Right, right. You know, and there were really times where I had things I loved and nobody would let me do them. Right. But what's interesting about that is that because you didn't come from this world, I wonder if, and that is so frustrating when you feel like it's something, not just that you think is a great idea, but that you feel right. People always use this word in LA passionate about, but let's just say like it feels very much like something that's like, you know, integral to your creative life and you really need to express it and you can't.

But because you didn't come from this world, I wonder if you felt like, well, I'm just going to go do other writing. I can always write what I want to write because I think. That's what I was doing before. Right. Some guys can't do that. Some guys don't have that option. You know, it's this or nothing. Right.

And, you know, I said before that, working at ABC Sports was like a detour. Well, I feel the same way about Seinfeld. You know, that that was kind of a detour because, you know, the road that I should be on is writing full sentences. And, you know, I had two dreamworks deals, you know, after something. Seinfeld, you know, a deal and then they pick me up. You know, so I did get money thrown at me, which is going to influence your life. You know, which is going to influence what you do. And so, you know, I tried to make the best of it and just try to be as do the most fulfilling

creative projects I could think of. And, you know, they didn't work out. But at the same time, you know, I like to. some of the stuff I did. Well, in the end, artistically, that's, I mean, for me anyway, I talked about that on the show, that has to be the only litmus test. I mean, you have to satisfy yourself. Yeah.

And, you know, once you better enjoy the work because once you, once you hit send on your computer, you know, it's like driving a new car off the lot. You know, it devalues by 50% immediately. Right, right, exactly. And in the end, you know, because it's, you know, because it's, such a capricious business, the show could go or not go for a thousand reasons. So at least if you've made the thing you want to make, because the worst things were still on to go,

and then you didn't even make the show you wanted. That's heartbreaking. But at least if you swung for the fences, and then it didn't get picked up, you can feel creatively satisfied that you did what you wanted to do. And, you know, Jeffrey Katzenberg, you know, God bless him, he encouraged me to swing for the fences. Yeah.

You know, after my, after it's like, you know, got canceled after a couple of seasons, You know, he was telling me to swing for the fences. And, you know, that's when I went, I did this kind of David Lynchian slash airplane. I called it sitcom noir about like the last good, truly good person on earth who does nothing but good deeds. And by the end of the first episodes, he's in the wrong place, the wrong time gets arrested for murder. Oh, wow. And it was going to be a serialized dark comedy, and I just absolutely loved it. and ABC, of all places, was just about to do it.

And then they called me in for a meeting and they go, what do you think is going to happen around, say, episode 18? I'm like, I don't know what's going to happen around episode three. Exactly. You know, I know it's got to continue to be funny and interesting. Right. Not good enough. That would reassure me.

Funny and interesting is plenty. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that was really disappointing. Yeah. And then I pitched another show about a young girl who, you know, like a young girl from a white trash family who knows for a fact that she happens that in a previous life she was Freud.

And everybody loved it. It was, I tried to talk to the networks in their language by saying it was like my favorite Martian except with a really hot girl. Right, right. And they didn't really believe that the audience would know who Freud is. Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Yeah, that's when I pretty much said. check please. Was it? Did you have a moment

where you thought I just am not in the way. Well I think emotionally I think I emotionally kind of checked out there. Yeah. I get it. I mean there's I think that there's a certain kind of personality who has an appetite for going through that over and over and over again

you know and and I don't know I'm not quite sure exactly what that personality type is. You know I know just relatedly that I was so grateful that it started as a stand-up

because I always felt like no matter what I could always be creative. You know, I didn't, I could do a shitty coffee shop, I could write like whatever, I always had this outlet. The most frustrating thing is to see like the hole you want to put your art through which can't get to it because there are all these people in the way.

And I imagine like you said that's just like you're weighing like, do I still have the appetite to go through this kind of bring my baby. That is the nice thing about stand-up. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, the only thing I, you know, the only thing that creeps me out a little bit about stand-up is, you know, hustling for stage time. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how to do that, really. Oh, it's a pain in the ass. Yeah. Yeah.

Are you still doing it? I do. I took this year off, just not totally off, like I just did a set last weekend, but like I stopped. I was like, I wanted a year without touring because it was just, I had like no, I, like, my creative life had diminished because I was just always doing and I wasn't really, like, ever sitting or thinking or having any experiences that were human. It's like hard to write material when you're actually not a person, you know. But yeah, no, I mean, this would be like my 21st, 22nd year doing stand-up.

And I, super, super-super-super-siber short. I did stand-up like just this last weekend. And I hadn't done it since November. And I had a really, and I rarely panic around static because I've been doing it so long. But I was like, oh, God, like, what if I forgotten how to do this? but I didn't and Chris Rock was telling me he's like well the nice thing about when you do a variety of things

like you know you're a writer and you're a novelist now you and you're an essay as you all these are things you stand up that like they all tend to kind of feed the same muscle in different ways and so it's easier to just get up there and kind of be the person that you always are whether it's in writing or spoken your mind still works the same way

you know yeah I was wondering about you know like if you haven't done it in a while I've been doing it so long now that I think finally the muscle is pretty well placed but when I was younger if I would take a lot of time off I would wrap like flop sweat panic attacks

and just I know I'm clear that I'm about to fall off this panic attacks are always part of the equation oh absolutely have you had a panic attack? Yeah I mean I had I wrote an article

you know I had an essay collection and it's in there like at an incredibly peaceful, great time in my life, all of a sudden I had this rash of panic attacks out of nowhere, like I'd be on the road

or any place else where I could potentially die. Right, so pretty much everywhere. Yeah, I'm just like all of a sudden my heart would start racing and things like that. So I wrote, of course, you know, like right in the midst of it, I wrote about it for Esquire. Yes, of course you did. I mean, that's the wonderful thing about having a writer's mind

or even a comedian's mind. It's like the worst thing is happening to it all. You can think is this is going to make a great bit. Yeah. I mean, at the absolute worst moment of all, you know, like in the worst period when I was in the throes of these panic attacks, I had this like sentence come into my head. You know, the account, this account of a sudden and inexplicable surge of panic attacks should be told in the first person, but he can't face up.

So I told the whole story in the second person. Oh, my God. Like it wasn't quite me. Right, right. And it was really, it was really, you know, it was a great piece to write. Was it cathartic? It would help you resolve what was going on? No.

Did you ever figure out what was going on? I think basically it was kind of a serotonin thing. Chemical imbalance. Yeah. Yeah. You know it's another really funny thing that? It's like, you know how anybody says they're on any kind of medication? They always go, but the minimum.

dose. Yeah, exactly. You know, like that's okay. Right, right. And I do it too. Yeah. Like I am on, you know, like Zoloft cured my panic attacks, but I am like down to like the minimum dose.

Yeah. Yes, I'd like to be your pilot today and I'm on the minimum dose of that psychosis medication. So, you know. I'm taking lithium. I'm taking lithium, but like just a tiny amount. It's like, guys, it's almost not even. Yeah.

I don't even notice it anymore. I mean, like, you know, I put the plan on autopilot. I take this tiny pill. Right. There's another guy in here, by the way. Everything's going to be fine. I don't think he's on lithium. At least we haven't discussed it.

He might be taking something else, but the minimum of that was for him as well. Yeah. Yeah. Captain Cobain. Oh, no. Are you on anything? Oh, my God.

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's always so scary when something starts to happen to you that feels totally inexplicable. You're like, why is this happening? me. It's terrible. That makes me even more frightened than the actual kind of experience of having the panic attack. Yeah. It was the worst. Oh, yeah, and you feel like you're going to die. Yeah, and you feel like you're going to

losing your shit. Yeah, yeah. And then there's this, and then there's that added kind of like especially around other people like, are they noticing this? You know, it's very frightening. It's very frightening. I remember being at something and I bumped into Mary Kay Place

and I told her about it and, you know, in all her incredible wisdom she says, Peter, for what we do, panic attacks, it's just a ride of passage. I was like, oh,

thank you. You know, like, you just want somebody to tell you that you're not, that it's okay. That you're not crazy. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I had, I had one series where I was, I had to rewrite my whole, like, rewriting my act from scratch

and I was just, I was just bombing every night and it hadn't really ever had that experience. I mean, just sustained, prolonged, ongoing, bombing. and I would get like these

just cataclysmic flop sweats. Like I wasn't just sweaty. I mean like something crazy was happening with my body, you know. I'd have to like put three shirts on and change. That was so weird. And a stand-up comedian who, I don't know if he's still around right now with this suit guy, Harley Williams. He goes, eh, you just haven't grown pains.

And I mean, it immediately soothes me. It didn't stop the flop sweats, but at least I didn't think that I was dying. How long had you been doing it when you, had to write out, like, like. When you had to write a whole new act. I mean, I would say seven or eight years in, I just, my act wasn't, well, we talked about this at the beginning, it wasn't personal enough. It was too outside of me.

And so I was just kind of disconnected from the material. I was just kind of doing bits, but it just didn't have any urgency to it. And I, and I really started to doubt that I could write. So a big part of it was like, you have to, like, you have to figure out who you are and it can't be like an idea of what you think you should be. Or people are telling you you should you are based on your look you know what i mean like a lot of people like oh because look like this this is how you should package yourself that was what was happening and i had to like throw all that away and like really start over and they just talk about shit that i found interesting you know and i think that's always i don't necessarily know that things have to be observational or high energy or personal but

they just have to be something that you give a shit about when you get up there because if you don't care then the audience isn't going to care yeah i i don't know where i am with that yeah caring Yeah, as far as like, you know, I mean, I'm just trying to do things that I kind of think are funny and weird. But I think that that's it. Do you know what I mean? You're just getting up there and pleasing yourself. Yeah. You know, like I had this whole bit about going to a Michael Jackson concert and having front row tickets and then getting down to my front row and Rosa Parks is sitting in my seat. And, you know, it's such a bizarre. The desert story. It is.

And the thing I love most about it is. That's a dilemma. You have a dilemma there. Yes. You really do. After the story, I say, you know, like in the interests of, you know, full disclosure, I want to say that parts of the story I just told you were fictional. You know, I mean, it's such an absurd story.

Right. I just love that stuff. You know, I'm, sometimes I worry that it's a little bit technical, but it's funny. Yeah. And I mean, again, like I said, I think artistically, and especially with stand-up, you just have to please yourself. The nice thing about it is eventually the people that like what you do will find you, you know what I mean, which is better than trying to figure out what people want from you and deliver that. That's a waste of your time. It's really still an incredible thrill when you see

somebody who's so good. Yeah. Like there's this young kid, Gerard Carmichael? Yeah, Gerard Carmichael, yes, yes. He's really good. Yeah. Yeah. He's like really fun. It's a thrill. It's a thrill. It's a thrill. It's like in, what's the right word? It's invigorating, but that's not it, but just like delightful. Yeah. Yeah. When you kind of feel like you discovered something. I think I want to talk, although I'll put lots of links to everybody up for Peter's new book.

Is this your first piece of fiction? Well, other than tougher television, obviously. Yes. What made you want to write a note? I don't exactly know. I was 30 pages into it before I knew I was doing it. Really? Yeah.

So just something in you that had to come out? Yeah. You know, I was just kind of outraged by something. I had dinner with an old friend that his parents were in town and his mother told me that this community on Long Island had become so kind of

overrun with, that's probably the wrong word, but with Orthodox Jews that you know, like if you had a business in town and you were open on the Sabbath, on the Jewish Sabbath, they would economically freeze you out. Jesus.

Like they were kind of imposing their religious feelings. you know, they're religious principles on you, whether you believed, you were, you know, orthodox or not, yeah. Or not even Jewish or not. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don't know.

I just found that so outrageous that, I don't know, somehow it just clicked off this thing and I started writing and it was, I don't know, I just, I got into this little philosophy of trying to make a little progress every day. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I wrote about this suburban guy, he's a podiatrist, and it's very deep in his head. and he tells the entire story to his college roommate who happens to be in a coma. Oh, wow.

You know, because I was thinking like, so few people really get the floor in their life. Yes, yes, exactly. Truly get the floor. Yeah. Yes. And here, you know, you tell somebody who's in a coma, they're not going to interrupt you. And that's what I really wanted. Wow.

And there's this moment where he kind of, I don't want to give it away, but there's like this kind of like catalytic or instigating moment where he does something that triggers a bunch of other. He does, he does, he commits a little act of vandalism. And he's about 51 years old and he's lived an incredibly, you know,

straight and narrow life in a wife and kids, good father, good provider. And this one time he committed. it's this act of vandalism and something in him, as he's just about to call the police and own up, he just says no. And walks away. He just walks away.

And, you know, it's what happens to him. You know, the vandalized, the building that was vandalized was owned, the window is owned by a prominent Orthodox Jew. so it's considered like this anti-Semitic act. Right. And, you know, he's like, he's a reformed Jew. Right.

So it seems like the perfect crime. I can't believe I'm going to say this out loud. I apologize in advance, but it was a Jew on Jew crime is what's happening here. Yes, it's Jew on Jew and Jew crime. Which people don't understand is absolutely out of control in certain parts of the country. Yeah, especially Long Island. It's mainly just Long Island. But also, and what's so interesting about it is that it doesn't just change things in the community as they kind of try to figure out what happened and everyone gets really outraged about it, but it changes things in him.

He changes as a person. Yeah. He kind of, he kind of gets radicalized a little bit. Yeah, all of a sudden, you know, he's, you know, there's a certain high you get from like you've committed to. Breaking the rules. Yeah, you've gone out. You've become a bit of an outlaw and there's a high from it. And it changes him in good ways in certain ways.

He's more forthright with his opinions all of a sudden. Because, you know, one other thing about the book is that this main character is hopelessly in love with his wife of 24 years. I mean, and they have a great marriage. You know, it's like a whole new area. I think it's a new genre. It is a new genre. You know, the really, the marriage that works. Right, right.

Who writes about that? Yeah. So, yeah, you know, I really liked writing about, I loved writing about, you know, of all these things that I'm not. You know, a father, old husband, you know, kids, a podiatrist. You know, that whole thing about write what you know bugs me. You know, everybody's a write what you know. How about making something up?

It's fiction. You know, how about making it up? Yeah. You know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It's garbage. Right.

Well, I think people write what they know when they don't have an imagination. Right. You know, make sense. something up. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don't know. Let's do self-inflicted wounds.

Did you, unless, what was the story that you told earlier? I had the memory of an infant. If you feel like the phone call. Although it ended really well for you, though. It ended with lunch with Bob Eiger. Yeah, it ended really well. Even my self-inflicted wounds. Here's my, the one that I can remember that set me back.

at the Washington Post a little bit. It's not that outrageous. I mean, you know, it has nothing to do with, you know, defecation or anything. I know it's going to be great. But I was, at the time, I was like, I was at the Washington Post. I was trying to get my name into the paper any way possible. I'd take any stories. At the same time, I was kind of like, I had this girlfriend and she was coming in from New York.

and I was in Washington and she was coming in for the weekend and on a Saturday night I couldn't be with her because I had to cover a bowling tournament. Oh God. A duck pin bowling tournament.

Now I'm from New York so I don't know. I figured this is Washington they probably just call bowling duck pin bowling. So I go to this I go cover it. I go to this bowling alley.

and I'm covering this tournament that's going on there and it's like an article like it would be like four paragraphs right right so I write the article I zip back I turn it into the post I zip back and I'm in bed with my girlfriend and the phone rings

and it's the night editor and he goes Peter how big were the pins at the bowling tournament. I said, what are you talking about? How big were the pins? He goes, well, were they like 18 inches high or were they like, say,

eight inches high? I don't know. They were like 18 inches high. You know, normal bowling pins. He goes, that's not duck pin bowling. I said, what? He goes, you covered the wrong bowling tournament. Oh, no.

Not only that, you covered a bowling tournament of some tiny little league that, like, every bowling alley in America has the same league. And for some reason, we have the Washington Post was covering their tournament. I go, oh, my God. And I became known as Moonman for a while. Oh, no. And it really said, but the worst part of it, like, I. hang up the phone, I go, you're not going to believe this.

I covered the wrong bowling tournament. And she rolls over and goes, you're an idiot. So I guess that comes to the full circle. I'm an idiot. Right. It's just irrefutable evidence. From the considering you're an idiot to you are an idiot. Confirmation.

Independent confirmation. Yes. Peter, this was such a delight. This was so much fun. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Thank you. That was Peter Melman.

That was such a thoughtful, interesting conversation, and I think it also shows you, me, all of us listening, how circuitous and roundabout and strangely serpentine one's life path can be because this is a man who started out as a beat journalist and moved from newspaper writing to magazine writing to television writing and now is back doing all kinds of other exciting writing including his brand new book, which is out now entitled, as I mentioned during the show. It won't always be this great, a novel, which was really, really well reviewed, and I'll make sure to put a link on the website so you can check that out. And see what all of the critics are so rapturous about. So, yeah, thanks for listening to this show. Thanks for subscribing. You know what to do. Come in a rate and write me and comment on the show on iTunes, keep girl and guy on top.

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