Girls Gone Bible - Doubting God w/ Craig Groeschel | Girls Gone Bible

Episode Date: March 7, 2025

Hiiii GGB! In this episode, we sit down with Craig Groeschel and explore his book 'The Benefit of Doubt.'   "The strongest faith isn't a faith that never doubts," writes Groeschel. "Rather, it's a faith that grows through doubts." Written for individuals facing doubts about God and as an asset to reach loved ones struggling with doubts, each chapter of The Benefit of Doubt includes questions that lead readers to dive deeper into the reasons behind their doubt. Groeschel also provides resources at the end of the book for readers to re-engage their relationship with God as well as an appendix of encouraging scriptures for the days of doubt. A supplemental workbook will also release from Zondervan to complement The Benefit of Doubt. "I want you to know you can have both faith and questions at the same time. You can wrestle with God and embrace him," writes Groeschel. "While you will never have all your questions answered this side of Heaven, you can be sure of one thing. You can give God the benefit of the doubt." The Benefit of Doubt book and workbook release from Zondervan on February 18, 2025.   Some questions we go dive into, but certainly not limited to— -Can you explain what deconstruction is and if it's ever good to deconstruct? -You share honestly about your doubts throughout your Christian walk. What have you learned by working through those doubts? -What do you say to someone who starts to doubt God because their prayers weren't answered? -Many people turn away from God because of hypocritical Christians. What do you say to someone who walks away from God because of a hurt or wound? -Christians believe Jesus is the only way to Heaven. What's your response to people who say that's arrogant? -Some people start to doubt God because they don't feel His presence. What would you say to someone who doesn't always feel God? -What encouragement do you have for someone who is struggling with doubt?   All of Craig’s links: Website- https://www.craiggroeschel.com/ Benefit of Doubt book- Instagram https://www.instagram.com/craiggroeschel/ YouVersion Bible App- https://www.youversion.com/the-bible-app/ https://www.craiggroeschel.com/books/the-benefit-of-doubt Life Church- https://www.craiggroeschel.com/lifechurch   we love you SO much. Jesus loves you more. -Ang & Ari   JOIN US ON GGB+ 🥹❤️ https://ggb.supportingcast.fm WE ARE ON THE OFFICIAL GIRLS GONE BIBLE LIVE TOUR! www.girlsgonebible.com/tour for the first batch of cities we have locked in :) WE LOVE YOU AND CANNOT WAIT TO SEE YOU!

Hi, GGB. Before we get started on today's episode, we just have a few announcements. First, we want to tell you guys that we're on the Girls Gone Bible live tour. You can go to girlsgonebible.com slash tour to get your tickets and join us on these beautiful nights where we worship Jesus, we love on Jesus, and we preach the Word of God because nothing is as important as the Word of God. Secondly, you guys know that we have GGB+, where we have basically behind the scenes exclusive episodes and conversations that are so raw, real, more honest than we even get when we're sitting at this table, believe it or not. So you

can go to girlsgombible.com slash plus, and you can sign up and join GGB Plus. And last but not least, this is a new announcement. Ari and I have our 31-day devotional out of the wilderness that is released for pre-order, you guys. Ari and I literally, this is our heart on paper. This devotional that we wrote, we gave everything that we have into this devotional. We're so proud of it. We're so grateful that Jesus would, first of all, do what He did in our lives and then give us the opportunity to write it down, to give to people, to show them how He can step in and rewrite your story

as well. We'll put a QR code on the screen and then you can also go pre-order the book on girlsgonebible.com. Hi, guys. I'm Ange. And I'm Ari. And this is Girls Gone Bible, and you guys can tell we're in a really different space than we usually are, and that's always a good sign that we have somebody really special on the podcast. I'm just going to say it, it's Mr. Craig Groeschel.

Thank you, Jesus, for your life, Craig. Hey, thank you, for your life, Craig. Craig Thank you, Ange. And I am really, really excited to be with you guys. Your passion for Jesus shows in every single thing that you do. Ange That means the world coming from you, and we really mean that. You are the lead pastor of Life.Church. You guys have 45 different campuses. I just learned that you guys are actually the creators of the YouVersion Bible app.

What would we do without the Bible app? I can't believe that you guys started that. Thank you. That was Bobby Grunwald who came to me years ago and he said, he was really kind of upset at the lack of Bible engagement and a lot of it was, like he said, honestly, he said of himself. And so, his kind of driving question was, what can we do to make God's Word more accessible? Right. And so, that was kind of the beginning of the questions we asked that led to something, and what's really kind of hard to believe, but this year, we're going to celebrate the

Bible out being on a billion devices. So, that'll happen sometime around October, November this year. And so, it's an unbelievable honor to get to give that away. And it's a lot of donors and a lot of hardworking people here make it possible. And so, it's hopefully it'll serve you all well because you're kind of the Bible girls, right? Yeah. I mean, we are so grateful for the fact that so many billions of people around the world in countries where they probably can't even access physical Bibles. Do you understand what that means? The Bible is what saved our lives. We're not girls gone Bible for no reason. The Word of God is everything. We grew up in a context where we knew about Jesus, but we didn't know Him

because we didn't know the Word of God. You can't hold anything equal to the Word of God. It is the most incredible thing in the world with the power to save, heal, transform. It's just incredible. So thank you. We're so happy to have you here. You guys are amazing. We're in Oklahoma right now. We have never been here before. You were in Oklahoma when there was almost a tornado. Yes. And you didn't even know. That's how California you are.

That's really bad. Is it bad that I said I wish there was one? That's pretty bad. That is 100% bad, just so you'll know. Okay, you can guarantee I'll take that out, I'm so sorry. I don't want a tornado. So, Camberga over here was one of the most famous storm chasers, like for real.

No way. Like Emmys and stuff, like real, like Emmy awards. Emmy awards. Storm chaser, yes. What? Yes, so you're in the room with a guy that doesn't want a tornado coming your way. I'm just picturing you just,

you actually just chasing storms? Yeah, 100%. Wow, I gotta see a video of that. I'm trying to picture that in my head. You watched the movies with him in it, that was him. No way, you know I don't want a tornado, that. I'm trying to picture that in my head. You watched the movies with him in it. That was him. No way. You know I don't want a tornado, right?

I was just kidding. Okay. Everyone safe. Well, Craig, we adore you. We really do. You and your wife, Amy, you guys are such an incredibly powerful couple. You guys are pure. Every single person that we talk to about you literally go, they

are the real deal. They're pure. They're good. They love the Lord. Everything that they do points to Jesus. Thank you. And I was even talking to your team and I noticed that even about the Bible app, that you guys don't brand yourselves. You never, you don't even hear Life Church as this big branded thing. You don't see the Bible app as this branded thing. It's just this points to the Bible, we point to Jesus. And nothing about you guys is self-serving or self-promoting and I can personally really appreciate that.

Thank you so much. Yeah. So, yeah, I think, what should we start with, R? Kick it off with how he found Jesus? Yeah. Just give us a little bit of how you got saved. So it's pretty cool. My story mirrors yours in some way. I was in college, I was an athlete, fraternity guy and fell into all the traditional stuff that is kind of rough and sinful. And so my fraternity got in big trouble. We had four guys commit grand larceny and we were in trouble at the school. And so I was a president at the time and decided to as part, partly like a PR move,

but partly because I was just really spiritually curious, I said, we're gonna start a Bible study. So you can imagine no Christians there, I mean, nobody. And I said, we're gonna, we're gonna, hey guys, we're gonna start a Bible study. And they were like, they said cuss words like, to bleep we are. I didn't know any better.

So I said, well, to bleep we are, we're gonna do a Bible study. And so I announced that on Tuesday, we're gonna have a Bible study. I didn't have a Bible. And so I was walking into a business class and I just thought, I don't have a Bible. Well, how amazing is this? I walked out and there was a guy

from the Gideons organization standing out there and he said, would you like a free Bible? And so he gave me a Bible. So I had my little New Testament Bible and started reading it with seven other non-Christian guys and we would read the Bible and then we'd pray and it's embarrassing, we didn't know how to pray. We would pray like, God, protect us as we party tonight, watch over us as we drink and drive God, we pray for Mitch's girlfriend, we pray she's not pregnant God.

Like we didn't know that we'd pray. And we started reading, I read Matthew, Mark, I got so excited, I read ahead, and it was in Ephesians chapter two that I read about the grace of Jesus that you could be saved by grace. And so when you say you were saved by reading the word, I was saved by reading the word.

It wasn't a sermon, it wasn't a song, it wasn't somebody witnessing to me, it was reading the Word. And so fast forward to this day, the fact that God would allow us to give away the Word in the form of the Uversion Bible. How crazy is that? The kid that was saved by a free Bible

now has the opportunity and the responsibility to steward that well? you talk about humbling. And it was like your story, Ari, you were saying you were saved right out of alcohol. Ari- Oh, that was me. Yeah, yeah. Pete No, that was your story. No, you were saved out of miraculous delivered. That was my story as well. My dad was an alcoholic and I couldn't stop and then met Jesus and stopped. And overnight went from being party guy

to being very, unfortunately, probably obnoxious about my faith, maybe not always in the wisest ways, but certainly with a pure heart, trying to be bold for Jesus and I felt like I was called to ministry the very first day I was saved. And I think because, probably because we all are, right? Wow. That's amazing.

That's amazing. I know you were just telling me how you are also literally supernaturally delivered. Yes. Like there's something in your genetic bloodline. You had a genetic predisposition to this issue and the same thing happened for me. and it's so comforting to know, because sometimes you don't even know how to put language to what happened because it's a miracle.

It is a miracle and it doesn't happen that way for everybody, but it did for me and I'm thankful for, there's so many miracles and still see them all the time. Yeah, I love it. I want to talk about your book. So, I have a story for you. We have been on tour. We came from St. Louis to here. And right before I got your book, The Day We Left For Tour,

I didn't even get a chance to look at it. I just put it in my bag. We were in a rush to go. After the St. Louis night, I got off stage really unwell. Like, I, when we did an altar call, you know, I'm just two years saved, I'm new to all this, I'm leading people while still trying to figure things out. You know, that's just the truth.

And so, I'm ministering to these girls and I have one girl in my arms who has a brain tumor and she's crying and she's looking in my eyes with such desperation. And I'm praying for her and I'm coming boldly to the throne of grace and I'm praying in faith, but I get off stage and I just felt so unwell. And I get back into my hotel room and I almost had a rage and anger in my heart, and I didn know what was going on and I didn't feel like I could even go to Jesus. I was like, I can't, in my head, he knows everything we're thinking, but in my mind I'm thinking, I can't call anyone right now because what will they think? I just talked about how Jesus saved my life, but I'm so angry at him right now. Why did that girl have to suffer?

Why do I have to watch at every single show how tormented these kids are? I am so sick of it. I'm pacing back and forth in my hotel room. I'm on the floor crying, being like, no, I'm not going to go to Him, because what will God think? He's probably going to be like, why are you questioning me? Why are you questioning me when I saved your life? So, all these thoughts are ruminating around my head and I'm just so unwell.

And I remember even somebody told me before, they were like, don't you ever question God? So, that was in my mind of like, okay, yeah, I can't. And so, I'm harboring all these feelings. I'm at the airport and I just can't stop thinking about this girl. I start crying again. I'm thinking, how can I even go interview him right now? I'm like, whatever, let me just start reading this book. I take the book out of my bag, The Benefit of Doubt.

I looked down, it was, you know, God moments, and it was one of those moments. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's what I'm going through right now, I'm doubting God. And the first thing I opened the book and it was a note from you, and this is why I love you so much. Like, you have been such an impact in my life because you have your realness and you just don't sugarcoat things. You are so real about anxiety and depression and what you go through. And I just want to let you know how much of an impact you've had on my life. Thank you so much. Thank you. And the first thing you wrote was,

I believe everyone, whether a long-term committed Christian or a long-term committed atheist, struggles with doubts. It seems more Christians today are struggling and questioning or deconstructing their faith. And I looked up and I said, thank you Jesus, I'm not alone. It's okay to have doubts. I felt I was like, I'm not a good Christian. I was beating myself up. So, and so then I started reading the book, I just felt complete, like Jesus, I felt like I could breathe again. I didn't feel alone.

I have a really hard time reading. I'm telling you, the whole plane ride home up until one in the morning, I read your whole book. I couldn't stop. Your book is one of the most incredible books I have ever read and I am so excited to dig in and talk about it. Pete Thank you. Anna Can we start off with the first chapter on doubt, please?

Pete Yes, yeah. Well, I think what you're saying is so true and so sad that so often in the church, we almost shame people out of being honest, right? And we think, you know think if we have doubts, then we must be a bad Christian. Well, if you have doubts, it doesn't make you a bad Christian, it makes you human. And if you look at the way Jesus handled people that doubted, He didn't shame them, He didn't push them away, He had grace for them. And if Jesus had grace... Martha doubted whenever Lazarus died and Jesus said, I'm the resurrection of the life and he healed. A guy questioned, could Jesus heal his son? And Jesus built his faith and healed his son. Peter walked on water and sank in the water.

And Jesus said, why'd you doubt? It was funny as I always thought that was like an accusation, like, why'd you doubt you dumb guy? Where I always thought that was like an accusation, like why'd you doubt, you dumb guy? Where's, you have little faith, but when you think about it, Jesus was, he reached down, he pulled the guy out of the water. I think Jesus was saying like, why are you doubting me? I'm here, I'm helping you, you're walking on water, I love you, I'm pulling you out of water.

That he had grace for people to doubt it. So if he did, shouldn't we? And I found, it's crazy, but you know, but as a pastor, I've had seasons I could tell you about, very distinct seasons of doubt. And by talking about them, I found that other Christians are both relieved and then learn that doubt isn't the enemy of faith. In many ways, kind of like what you're doing, it's an invitation to a deeper faith. Yes.

You don't doubt because you don't love God, you doubt because you do love God and you don't understand, and God is big enough to handle your questions. I think He wants them, He embraces them, and you see all through the Bible, people going to God going, why? I don't understand, where are you? Why do the wicked prosper and the righteous suffer? And it's all over the word. So, if other people of God can go to God with questions, I think you can go to God with questions and I think He welcomes it and will

not push you away but help you grow through it. I know. And I love when you said in the Bible, they don't put the doubts in the Bible to convince you, like to convince you, they put it in the Bible to show you that the disciples all had doubts. That was so comforting to read that. So imagine this, and a lot of people miss this, Jesus has risen from the dead, He's about to ascend to heaven, He's up on a mountaintop, He's with the disciples, and Matthew says right before Jesus gives a great commission,

right before, he says, and they worshiped Him, and some doubted. That's what the Bible says, they they worshiped him and some doubted. That's what the Bible says, they worshiped him and some doubted. And Jesus said, go into all the world and preach the gospel. So he said, go into the world and do my work, doubts and all. Literally right there, they're looking at the risen Christ and they worshiped and some doubted.

That's me, like one day I'm worshiping and then sometimes I'm going, ah, is this really true? And he still sent them out to go into the Great Commission. That makes me feel seen, valued, loved, understood, inspired that it's okay to still go do ministry when I don't understand it all. But it's important to just not sit there in harbor

to come to him with your questions. He sees it, so. Yeah, and so when you did that, when you went to God and said, I don't understand, and talked to Him, what happens? I felt at peace, like I felt like it was okay, but when I harbor things in and I don't come to Him, when I always hide from Him, I always feel worse.

But when I come to Him with the question, He reveals. And it was funny because I love in your book you say, well, why? Like, what do you think the reason why? Like, you have to distinguish why you feel like this. And there's like four different things you have in the book, and mine is, because I see so much sickness. Yes, you see so much pain. And so then I question it.

You say diffuse your faith, diffuse your doubt by defining it. Can you walk us through that? Because there was multiple key ways of doubting. Yeah, so what's interesting is, is, you know, like you'll learn in counseling, like if you have fear or anxiety or whatever, and you talk about

it and kind of put skin on it, that in some ways diffuses it. And the same thing is true with doubt. So, I try to get people, and again, I'm not like a doubt evangelist. I'm not saying, hey, you should go doubt, ever. I'm saying that if you do, here's how to do it well, because you can doubt your way away from God or you can doubt your way closer to God. I would say define why do you doubt. Some people would say, it's like I come across something in the Bible that I don't understand it. And so it's a theological question. Some people would say, well, I can't reconcile what I see with who God says he is. You might see someone with a brain tumor and you're saying, God, I'm praying and I'm believing standing

on your word that you're going to heal and you haven't, so where are you? Some people it's because they've been hurt by Christians and then they'll often blame God for it or something, you know, someone in the church was mean to me or unkind and so all Christians suck, I'm mad at all Christians and God's not real, whatever it is. And so I found that if you just, if you really talk about what it is, I'm hurting, I'm disappointed, I'm mad at God, He didn't come through for me, I don't understand, they said one thing, they did something else, my pastor did this, now he lied about something or whatever, if you name it, you can take it to God. It's easier for

God to heal something when you know it needs healing. And so, don't be afraid to get specific about it and to take it to God. And I think sometimes the more specific we can be about, this is what I don't like, this is what I don't understand. When you read Habakkuk, this is what the guy did, the prophet, he's like, God, I don't understand. Why do you tolerate wrongdoing? And what's powerful

about His name, it's super cool if you read Him, His name, Habakkuk in Hebrew, it means to wrestle and it means to embrace. And that's what you do. Yeah. It's like you're wrestling with God going, I don't like it, I don't understand, where are you? And I'm not letting go. I'm trying to trust you and I'm not sure I trust you and I'm holding on. And I'm convinced God would rather have you come and yell at him than to walk away. And that's faith, right?

That's faith. It's faith that you're questioning him because you want to believe. It's not a lack of faith. Yeah, through your doubt you show up and you talk about that a lot with Thomas. I loved that you broke that down with doubting Thomas because I had a hard time understanding that.

Don't you get Thomas? Like Thomas probably, he went through some stuff. Yeah, yeah. He had some people let him down. Or he was the guy that had proved it to me. And Jesus did, right? Jesus gave Thomas what he needed. Thomas said, I need to touch, I need to see.

And Jesus said, here, touch and see. And that's encouraging to me. Jesus gave Thomas what he needed. He didn't get mad and say, why are you doubting? He said, okay, let me show you. What I love about what you do, Craig, is that you oftentimes give such a different perspective on scripture, a different interpretation.

Like even doubting Thomas, we all like, calling someone a doubting Thomas, we all like, calling someone a doubting Thomas is almost like an insult. It is. Like, you know? But he ended up with more faith. I mean, he's a guy, tradition tells us that he was preaching in India for years and he wouldn't deny Jesus and they ran a spear through him.

So he's the one who said, I need to see the spear mark in the side and then he died because he wouldn't deny his faith in Jesus. So, he gets a bad rap. And I love what you say, he gave him what he needed. You come to God with your doubts and He will give you what you need. He loves and you also said, He is not that fragile. He's not so fragile to take our questions and our doubts. It was a relationship, right? So, like, you know, and thank you for speaking highly of her. She is a gift beyond measure. And she's the one who taught me, if we get in kind of disagreement, I'll withdraw. And she's like, no, you won't. If you love me, we're

going to work this thing out. And I kind of think I had to learn that with God too, that if I am in a relationship with God and I don't understand, I might pull back. And I don't think he wants to pull back. You have to push in. And so that's one of the 50 million things I learned from Amy. Lauren Ruffin I love her by the way. She is a beautiful, beautiful woman. Pete Slauson She is as beautiful inside, I promise you, as she is on the outside. Lauren Ruffin Wow.

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Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Girls Gone Bible today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Girl's Gone Bible. Can we talk about, why should I believe God is good? I love this chapter. Can you speak on that? Well, it's a real, people ask questions all the time.

So, you know, you said I'll look at things differently. I think I came to the Bible without Bible history knowledge. So I looked at it, I tried to look objectively. And so people will say, why do bad things happen to good people? We see it all the time. And when you take a step back, let's just ask some questions like,

what does the Bible say our heart is? Without Jesus, what is our heart? It's deceitful, right? And is anyone righteous? No one's righteous, and so we've all sinned. So technically speaking, we're not good people. And so bad things don't really happen to good people, bad things happen to bad sinful people, right?

And so the only time something bad happened to someone good was when Jesus paid the price for us. So if we look another way at it, I actually deserve the penalty of my sins. And so when I don't get that, that's the most amazing display of grace ever, is that I actually deserve the wrath of God, and He doesn't give it to me, He gives me grace.

And so that changes the narrative, and so the evidence of God's goodness isn't just if I get a raise or have a job with benefits or have good friends or get to go on nice vacations, the evidence of God's goodness is His character and His grace for me. And it doesn't mean I don't get disappointed if one of my daughters is sick and she is and still is and hasn't been healed. Yes, I'm disappointed,'t mean I don't get disappointed if one of my daughters is sick and she is

and still is and hasn't been healed. Yes, I'm disappointed. Yes, I don't understand. Yes, I'm frustrated. Yes, I get angry. And yes, God is still drawing us closer and she's closer to Him than ever before. And we see His faithfulness and goodness. And so it's both. It's not, the evidence of God's goodness is not the quality of my life. The evidence of God's goodness is His character and His nature. Yeah, because I mean, even especially where I grew up, we just see so many people, why should I believe God? Look at what I went through.

Why should I believe God? Look at all these hypocritical Christians. I hear that so much. And good thing our faith isn't in Christians, right? Right, that's a really good point. You talk about church hurt and just wounded in your book a lot. And it's, can you just talk about that a little bit because that's why so many people walk away from faith and it's always a good reminder that we follow Jesus, not people.

Well, church hurt is real. But what's interesting too, and I really, I don't ever want to pick at it because, you know, I've been around a long time and I've seen a lot of things that are really heartbreaking to God, the way Christians can act. But it is interesting. People get hurt in college and they don't have college hurt. Right? People go to a restaurant and have bad service and they don't say, you know, Olive Garden, I hate their breadsticks, I'm never going back to restaurant, they don't do that. So I think that to, you know, you don't hear about church hurt, you know, I don't have, you know, I don't have job hurt, I'm never going to work a job again. So I think there's this little bit of a spiritual attack that

our enemy wants to separate people from the support that God intended them to have. So when you look at it objectively like that, it doesn't, I don't want to ever belittle the fact that people are devastated by Christians, and this horrible one is always wrong. But just because one Christian or five Christians are ungodly doesn't mean that God's body isn't still important. And so I want to try to separate what someone does from who God is. And that can be a little bit difficult, but the other thing is, think about this, if we do get hurt by Christians, what are we called to do? Love them.

And forgive, right? Yeah. And so, to be a part of a church, we probably are going to have to endure some hurt. Yeah. 100%. 100%. Yeah. And Jesus kind of promises us that, right? In this world, you're going to have trouble.

If you follow me, you will be persecuted. There is going to be spiritual opposition and the opposition can come from within the church or without the church. So I would just say pastorally to someone, my brother-in-law was sexually abused by a pastoral figure in the church. That's wrong, it's horrific, it's a nightmare, it's always wrong, it's demonic, it's horrible. And the church is still the bride of Christ and Jesus is coming back for his church and the church is still important. And so, yes, we have to name it and call it what it is, demonic, horrific, wrong, a nightmare, tragic, and still see that the Holy Spirit works through people

in the church. Yeah. And it's all, God is still good and he's good. And then I could tell you all the stories about what happened to David through, he went in a bad place and then he rediscovered Jesus because of the church. And so you still see the hand of God in the pain because God is sovereign and he is working in all things,

even the things that we hate. Yeah. We see a lot, like on TikTok and on Instagram Reels, there's a lot of content around deconstructing faith. And so, can you just speak to people and tell them what deconstructing is and how it can actually lead to greater faith? So, great question. And so, deconstruction, depending on who you ask, there's a lot of opinions about it. So, some of my peers as pastors would

say deconstruction is always bad. And the reason is they would say that is because they have a limited view of what they've heard about it of people that might be really hurting, genuinely hurting and get with a group of people that basically says, forget all churches, I hate God, all Christians are bad. And they flip off God in the church and walk away. And so that does happen. But I would say that deconstruction done well can actually be a form of discipleship. Meaning that when you look at what Jesus did,

when he came, and you see five different times, he said in the Sermon on the Mount, he said, you have heard it said, but I say to you, you've heard that your whole life, you've been taught this, but I'm going to tell you that's either incomplete or it's not true and let me tell you what is true. So in a sense, what was he doing? He was kind of deconstructing. And so if there, here's the thing, the problem is we all read the Bible with a bias. As much as we want to read it purely, we come to it with our own hurts, our own family backgrounds,

from what country we're from, what type of church we're raised in. I could preach the same text, another preacher could preach the very same text, and we preach it with a different tone. I see I'm preaching on the love of God in the text, he's preaching on the judgment of God. And God is loving and he's judged, he's both. And so there's different emphasis. So sometimes I tell people that everything you believe about God may not be true, and you just have to start there. That you might have grown up in a church that was too legalistic, or a church that was too full of grace, or a church that only talked about the judgment of God, or a church that only talked about the grace of God. And so, what we have to do is,

in a real, I would say, in a community, look at what we believe that there's something that's untrue, something that's hurtful, we unbelieve it. We say that's actually not consistent with God's Word. And we deconstruct that. Then we reconstruct it with what is true. How do we do that? I just always tell people, start with the Gospels, like start with Jesus. Read everything through Jesus.

I have four daughters, six kids total, four daughters, and the four of them were raised in two rooms that had really bad mold. And I was so dumb, like, what's that black stuff? Like, dumb. And so it was not good for them. So when we found out, we didn't tear down our whole house, we tore down, we took the mold out.

And that's what deconstruction is, is that we're identifying what's not consistent with God's word, what is not true, what doesn't reflect Jesus. And we say, okay, that's not true, we deconstruct it, but we don't burn the whole house down. We take that away and then we rebuild it with what is true. And again, if you wanna start with truth,

there's no better place to start with Jesus and interpret everything through the lens of what did Jesus say about this? I even love how you broke it down with Peter, how he needed to deconstruct Peter. He did. I love how you broke it down. So Peter kind of thought Jesus was gonna be

like a reigning king, a conquering, you know, with the sword. Peter wanted, you know, he brought the sword fight to the garden, you know, he wanted to fight and Jesus said, I'm going to lead with love. And so whenever Peter argued against the way Jesus was going to save the world, Jesus called him Satan. He said, get behind me, Satan. Like, that's not true.

And deconstructed those beliefs and then reconstructed them. The same thing when Peter denied Jesus three times, what did Jesus do in John 21? He kind of reconstructed. He said, hey, do you still love me? Then feed my sheep. So here's what I want you to do. He's rebuilding his faith. And then, I mean, when you think about it, did Peter deny Jesus three times? Like literally you could say, you could say he deconstructed and walked away from Jesus. Kind of, I mean, we could make that argument. Who did God choose to be the guest speaker

on the day of Pentecost? Peter, the guy who didn't believe, the guy that doubted and fell in the water, the guy that denied him, because doubt isn't always the enemy of faith. Sometimes it's an invitation to a deeper faith. Kirsten I'm trying not to be too vocal, wow, because we're on a podcast and my mic is on. Craig Just go, just do your stuff.

Kirsten You're so good. You're so good. Craig You're so kind, thank you. Kirsten You're so good, Craig. What do you say to people, because this is something that we see a lot, what do you say to people who read the Bible specifically in the Old Testament? And there's some funny stuff in there. There's some crazy stuff in the Old Testament. And we're supposed to, and like, this is coming from someone who unfortunately, or not unfortunately, fortunately, I take the Bible at face value.

Literally, I could read the most insane thing in the Bible and I go, I know it happened. Like, that's just how my brain works, that's how my heart is. What do you say to people though that read, you know, Jonah being swallowed by a whale, just all of the stuff that's in the Old Testament and how we have to believe it as truth? truth. So, good question. I believe Jonah was swallowed by a whale and vomited back out. Yeah. Do I technically have to believe that the Bible doesn't say believe in your heart that Jonah was swallowed by a whale and was vomited back out? So, the Bible says you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and was saved.. So I'm going to start with what we really, really have to believe and the gospel, that my righteousness is not enough, that Jesus was the Lamb of God who was slain for my sins.

He didn't just die for me, He died instead of me and by believing in His perfect death, I'm forgiven. So that's where I'm going to start. Then we can debate everything else. I personally believe that the Word of God is inspired. I also believe there's some, not just weird like miracles, but there's just like, you get Leviticus and there's like that weird stuff in there. And so we have to say, what is the New Testament? The New Testament is a fulfillment of the fullness of who God is. And so that yes, our foundation is built on the Old Testament and God is the God of the Old Testament and the fullness of who God is is manifest through Jesus.

Jesus came to fulfill the law. And so I'm always gonna go to Jesus, but then let's talk about everything back there. If God could create us, he could probably, the guy could live in the belly of a whale for three days, three nights. So, if you want to get hung up there, I'm not going to sit there and debate that for days, as much as I'm going to point to Jesus, but I'm also going to say that we serve a God with whom all things are possible. And so, I would rather err on the side of believing all of what God's Word says than

me saying I'm smart enough to pick it apart. And in the end, if I'm wrong, I'm going to be wrong on the side of trying to have faith rather than trying to be smarter than as putting above my pay grade. Beautiful. I love that. What does being a woman of faith mean to you? Is it maybe embracing the unique journey, growth, challenges, and strength that come with being a Christian woman? What about

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and they've been praying for that child or praying for their husband to get better, and then they just don't get better, and then you see somebody else that probably isn't doing the best thing, and they're getting everything, it seems, right? I want to just read a little bit. Do you mind if I read what you wrote? It's just this little part I love. You said, Even though I know spiritually that life is about God's glory, God's will and God's plan, not my own,

my prayers don't always reflect that truth. When I'm honest about many of my prayers, I have to admit that a lot of my praying is an attempt to control God. I tell Him what I want, what is best, and what He needs to do. But that's not the purpose of prayer. We need to embrace the reality that God is the star of the story. He does not exist to serve us. We exist to serve Him. The truth is displayed in the life of Jesus throughout the Gospels. When we come to terms with that, we understand that the purpose of prayer is not going to get God to do our will. The purpose of prayer is to know God so we can do His will."

I love that because so many of us miss that. We do. Can you talk about prayer? I would love to talk about prayer for days. And the reason is because I always felt like I was not a good prayer. We do. Can you talk about prayer? I would love to talk about prayer for days. Yes. And the reason is because I always felt like I was not a good prayer. Yeah. So, Amy is like, she wants to pray for a long time and loves it.

And it even takes her a long time to get started. She's like, let's pray. And then she'll be breathing. I'm like, God's waiting, I'm waiting, let's go. And then she starts and she just genuinely will tell God how good he is for a long time and then pray about everything. And my mind's wandering.

I'm like a pastor and I suck at prayer. So I had to learn a lot about prayer. What I've discovered is we all have different personalities, right? And so I got six kids and I relate to them differently. My oldest one, she likes to write, and if we're writing, we can connect. My second one is face-to-face talk.

My third one, I'm going through three. My third one is during activities. My fourth one is on the phone. My fifth one is only if we're playing catch. We gotta be doing something. And my sixth one is she's an extra, anything and everything all the time, whatever. So six different kids, six different ways of relating.

You're gonna relate to God in prayer different than somebody else. Some people are gonna wanna talk to him for an hour. For me, what I've discovered is that I never pray for a long time, but I never go a long time without praying. And so when you talk about praying without ceasing, to me, it's prayer is as much not just talking to God,

but it's an awareness that he's with us always. So all through the day, I'm like, give me wisdom, God. Okay, God, am I supposed to encourage that person? God, am I supposed to pray for that person? Am I supposed to give something? So it's like ongoing awareness of God. And then one of the big questions in the doubt book is like, why didn't God answer my prayer?

Right? And His words said this and I prayed for this. And so we got, there are actually a lot of reasons in the Bible why He doesn't always answer prayer. And like sometimes literally it's like, there's a verse that says, you know, if you're disrespectful to your wife, your prayers are hindered.

Like, oh, that's in there. Like crazy verse. Right. Like. Crazy verse. Crazy verse. Can you just break that one down a little bit for the people so people remember why. Well, okay, so if I am to love the Lord God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength, and if I'm to love my bride as Christ loved the church,

and if I'm being a jerk to her, imagine I've got two kids and they're fighting and hitting each other and say, dad, will you take us to get doughnuts? Like, no, you're being a jerk to each other. You gotta be nice to your brother. Okay, so if I am a stronger physical being and I am using my power, my influence to be unkind to my bride, God says that hinders your prayers.

Crazy. Somebody needed to hear that. Thank you so much. That's in the Bible. Yeah. Right? There are other reasons. If you're praying for something that's not God's will,

like literally a lot of times, I'm praying for my will. Yeah. If you're praying with the wrong motives. Like when I was a new Christian, there was a really pretty girl that was really far from God, and I was like praying with the wrong motives. When I was a new Christian, there was a really pretty girl that was really far from God and I was like, praying that she gets saved. I didn't care about her salvation, I just wanted to date her. That's not praying with the right

motives. And a lot of times we pray with the wrong motives. And so there's a lot, like we may have, the Bible says this, that the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. And that means if I am unrighteous, meaning maybe I've got unconfessed sin, or I'm just, maybe I'm living with an ongoing problem and saying, well, that's okay, God, just deal with it, then that may be actually a hindrance to my prayer. The Bible says God honors your faith.

So if I have no faith at all, then that may hinder my prayer. So all that to say, those are just some little things to look at when we're praying and there's more. And yet the beautiful thing is God says that if you have faith like a mustard seed, like just a little bit of faith, that it'll hear your prayer. And so through a lot of praying, a lot of searching scripture, a lot of miracles where God has answered prayers like unbelievably miraculous and other times devastatingly, he didn't. And I knew he would. I have discovered that kind of what you just said, that prayer does not exist for God to do what I want him to do. Prayer exists to conform my heart to his heart so that I'm actually doing

his will. And so now, more than just coming to him with my wish list, I often go to him with a blank page and says, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So your will be done in my life. God help me know your heart and your will. So beautiful. And it doesn't mean that I don't get frustrated when he doesn't do it. It doesn't mean that I'm not asking him to do it. There's so many times I don't get frustrated when he doesn't do it, doesn't mean that I'm not asking him to do it. There's so many times I don't understand and his ways are higher than my ways and I only see in part in one day, you know, we'll see in full when we're with him.

I think what's so encouraging about all of this is that even a pastor at your caliber who's been in ministry for as long as you have, you still are aware that there are mysteries in the way that God works. Frustrating mysteries, meaning like I am frustrated with God now, at this moment, as we're speaking. And I love Him and I trust Him, and I don't understand Him, all at the same time. I mean, I got sick daughters and I'm like going,

I mean, it just sounds pitiful, it is. Like, God, do you know what I'm doing for you? Can't you do this for me? Where are you, God? And I talked about it transparently in a message, like I literally don't want to pray for sick people to be healed because I'd rather Amy do it.

Because she just prays with, she believes God will do it. I believe he can. I know he can, but I haven't seen him in a while. And so it frustrates me. And not only does she believe he can, she believes he will when she prays. And so I'm always like, you pray. And she's like, no, no, you gotta work through it.

So it's like, I'm just blabbing, but it's just, it's just, it's just, it's, the father whose boy was demon possessed said, Jesus, I believe you can, but help me overcome my unbelief. That's a real good prayer. I believe you can, I know you're real. And there's part of me that's still very human and broken and needs more help. Help me where I doubt.

Help me where I have questions. Help me where I'm frustrated. That's a good prayer. It's an honest prayer. Can I ask you a question? So something that I deal with quite often, so we have sick people who we really, really need saved, healed, delivered and freed. And you probably are in a similar position as we are where we hear countless testimonies from our ministry, our videos,

our episodes, our live tour. I mean, like hundreds and hundreds of testimonies of people, salvations, people being freed from addictions and mental illnesses and all of these things. And there is such a bitter sweetness to it because I'm like, how do I have so much power through my ministry and I can't bring that same power home? And you, it's not that you don't want to see these, you know, people beings, of course you do, but there's such a, like, weird tension of being like, okay, but I'm seeing you do this for so many people, but like, I'll give it all away if you'll do it, just do it for this one person. You know what I mean?

And they want to have faith as little as a mustard seed, but some people are so mentally ill, they can't have the faith as small as a mustard seed. So it's like, what do you do in that case? I think that's the question Angela and I are constantly wrestling with. Some people just can't get there. Yeah, I'm gonna talk to your family first because I just feel the angst, I feel your pain

and your emotions and for me, that was my dad for a long time. So I would say a couple of things. One is sometimes you're a prophet without honor, so you're the one too close to them, and so they don't listen to you. And it is not your job to save them. It's your job to reflect the love of Jesus. And you do that, you pray, and God cares about their salvation even more than you do. And He's patient. And so, sometimes when they get worse and worse, sometimes they actually have to get so low that they have nowhere else to look but to call on Him.

And then what I found, and just doing this for a long time, is that there are other people that God may be setting up to cross paths with those people that you love. And He is so good. And obviously, you guys are younger and have been walking with God five years, two years ish. And it seems like forever and God is a patient God. I've seen those miracles sometimes after 25 years, 30

years. And when you feel like there's no hope, sometimes a person that seems the farthest from God is actually closer than you think. So don't lose faith. When you were saved, the people around you never would have thought you'd be doing that. And so, as big of a miracle as you were, I believe that you'll see that for many of the people in your life. Thank you. I love the chapter where you talk about Jesus is the only way, but some people can be so arrogant to that. And there's so many different cultures. And you know, you hear people all the time say, oh, well, we'll all get into the same God. You talk about that so much in the book. And I just love how you broke that down. And so I would love for you to talk about that.

Well, first of all, I would say that, you know, let's just start and recognize we live in a really big world with a lot of different traditions, faith, backgrounds, families. And so for someone else to say, hey, I've been exposed to a different belief system, that's just really, really normal. So we don't want to judge that. We don't want to be arrogant. But what we have to do is we have to investigate every kind of faith belief and say, who's the main player here? What does he say about himself or what does his witnesses say about him. And so for Christianity, we're going to start with Jesus and say, let's consider who Jesus is.

And so he claimed he's the son of God. He claimed he is the way, the truth, and the life. He claimed that he would die and be raised from the dead. And so when you look at the resurrection, you're going to find there's really strong, historic evidence that the disciples died for Him. Would they have died for a lie? That there were people that were converted, that were skeptics, that saw Him at the tomb. There's ongoing evidence that the resurrection is real. If Jesus claimed to be that, then what is He? It was C.S. Lewis who said, if he claimed to be the son of God,

then he's either full blown crazy, like just he's a lunatic or he's a liar or he's Lord. And so we have to acknowledge which one is he? He might be crazy, could be, maybe he just made it all up. And then his disciples were willing to die for it. Maybe he was a liar or maybe he was Lord. And so just really look at what the disciples said, look at the transformed lives,

look at what God's word says, talk to him, ask him. If you're real, prove it to me. And so I would just say pursue Jesus, read Jesus, look at Jesus and base your decision on what you can discover about Jesus. And then look at others if you want to. But I think if you look objectively and honestly, you're gonna see that who makes up a God that becomes flesh,

born of a virgin, and then is born in poverty, and serves and loves the sinners and the broken. And like, you can't make up something that beautiful, and serves and loves the sinners and the broken. You can't make up something that beautiful, that powerful, that life transformative. Look at your testimony. Look at you, you're dead in your life. You're lost and you're found.

You're in bondage and you're free. It's like, I always, the gospel makes sense. You put the gospel up against any other religion, you put Jesus up against any other God, and it just makes sense. There is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood. There's only one way, only one name under heaven by which men can be saved.

You call on the name of Jesus, everything changes. And you see the 700 prophecies, 700 prophecies. He'd been born of a virgin, he would suffer. He would, you know, you look at the Passover in the Old Testament, the temporary, you take a lamb and you shed its blood and you put some on the top of a door post and some blood on the sides and then death passes over you.

You look at that, what happens when you put blood on the top of a door, it falls to the bottom. You look in, I think it's Exodus 12, and what do you see? You see on the door, you see the cross in the Old Testament. You see it right there in the Old Testament, foreshadowing Jesus. You see Jesus all over the Old Testament and everything points toward him.

The gospel is the good news, it's the best news, it changes lives. And then you doubt sometimes and you don't understand. And so you go back to that, you go to Jesus and you hang on to Him, who He is. And that's the thing I go to all the time, is the moment when I knelt down alone in a softball field and called on His name.

It was one person when I knelt down and I was a new person when I stood up. And that I hold on to when I knelt down and I was a new person when I stood up. And that I hold on to when I don't understand. So beautiful. Can we talk a little bit, Craig, about just the sensationalism around the presence of God? This is coming from someone who I am like a presence person. I really like was discipled by African prophets in these little 10 person meetings where just- You've got a crazy story.

I have, you have no idea, my mom, I like get saved, me and my mom go to these little African meetings. The Catholic girl that gets saved in the war, mentioned by African prophets, who gets freed from alcohol. I have, we would have pastors in Pakistan that would pray for us. I don't know anybody like you. I don't, yeah, it's insane. That's why I have a very well-rounded faith. We would have pastors in Pakistan that would pray for us. I don't know anybody like you. I don't, yeah, it's insane.

That's why I have a very well-rounded faith. And so, I'm like a big presence person. I started encountering the Spirit of God in my bedroom in Hollywood when I was 25 years old. I would literally leave my house to go to the gym and I would miss Jesus so much that I'd go back home because I wanted to be in the presence of God. I'd open my Bible and I just, I felt it. I felt the glory of God fall into my bedroom. And then I experienced what you talk about in the book, where there is a honeymoon stage in your faith. With people, there's a honeymoon stage with Jesus where you're so on fire, and then

with relationships with people, you have to work at it. Because that like, whatever is released in that beginning stages, there's like a spiritual high that you experience. And so first I want to ask you the presence of God, it's not about feelings. And so I can tell sometimes even when I don't get there, where I don't experience the presence, this like insane encounter with Jesus where I start to think, oh my gosh, what do I have to repent encounter with Jesus where I start to think, oh my gosh, what do I have to repent for? What did I do? What's wrong? Can you speak to that? So, there's so much I want to say to it because I've been there. Like my honeymoon stage as

a new Christian, I mean, I was out of control, witnessing, crying out to God, praying for everybody, sensing His presence, feeling it. I got saved out of what was like kind of the church I went to was like a no expression into a very charismatic, vibrant, God's everywhere. And it's a little bit like with Amy, we were madly in love. We didn't have a fight for three years when we were married until we had our first kid and then we made it for lost time. I was dumb. And, but then now we're 33, almost 34 years into it. And the, like the new goosebumps thing isn't there all the time,

but the depth of intimacy is a thousand times what it was before. Like legitimately, anyone who says a godly marriage isn't possible, talk to Amy. Well, it is very, very possible. And the same is true with God, that I think, and it's just a theory, and there's, doesn't say this in the Word,

but I think God gives you a little extra when you're a new Christian. Kind of like a baby needs a little more care. You need to burp so much, you need to change your diaper, you know, goo goo gaga. I think when you're a baby Christian, I think God gives you a little bit extra sometimes and just shows himself to you in other ways.

And then after a while, without faith it's impossible to please God. Sometimes you have to pursue him without feelings and just faith, like literally faith pleases God. And so why don't I always feel the presence of God? Again, the Bible gives us some clues. Sometimes I think we're over sensationalizing it. Jesus said, hey, everybody's looking for a sign.

Everybody wants a feeling. And so I don't want a sign, I want what the sign points to, and the sign points to Jesus. So we're not looking for a sign, we're actually looking for the sign points to Jesus. So we're not looking for a sign, we're actually looking for the sign pointed to Jesus. So we wanna keep our eye on Jesus. Another thing too would be this,

that we know that sin does separate us from God, right? So if you were in Oklahoma a month ago and it's really, really cold, negative two degrees one day, if you put on a lot of clothes, the clothes will separate you from the cold. It won't feel as cold. You'll be separated. If you sin a lot, ongoing sin, it doesn't mean like, you know, you did something wrong so God doesn't love you. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you're cheating on your wife and you're

not repenting. You're living in pornography and you don't care. You're doing drugs on the side and you're keeping a secret. You're living in ongoing sin. That might block some of your intimacy with God. If I am not being truthful to Amy or hiding something from her, I'm not gonna be as intimate with her because sin separates. And so it could be that it's not that God has moved away,

but you've put up some kind of a barrier. It could be that sometimes God just wants you to draw close. Maybe he's not, I don't feel him because he wants me to draw closer to him and spend more time with him and be intimate. And so what I do want to do is I want to enjoy the presence of God in this very, very real. And I think there are people in this room that are working behind the scenes that would say, I feel the presence of God in this, very real. And I think there are people in this room that are working behind the scenes that would say, I feel the presence of God in this place right now. And then there might be one person in the room, but I don't. And that doesn't mean He's not here. And

it doesn't mean necessarily you've done something wrong. Enjoy Him when He does and pursue Him always, always. Yeah. And I love what you said too. You said in your book, you were like, and honestly, in ministry, my whole life is connecting to God. And you've probably had, what was it, nine? Oh, I've had a few supernatural experiences where if I told you two or three,

people would probably stop listening because I thought that guy's weird. Oh, I wanna hear. Well, I mean, like, genuinely. So at my salvation point, yeah, it does sound super weird. I physically couldn't get up for a while. There's just, I couldn't get up.

And it felt like I had to surrender. My prayer was not what I'd call like a real technical salvation prayer, because I didn't know how to. But I was like, okay, God, if this is you and this is real, then I give it all to you. I surrender. And then the weight removed and I was able to get up. So physically, I felt like I was under the presence of God in a way that I just couldn't. Another time where that His presence was so real, I stayed in a place praying, and again, I don't pray for a long time, until well into the night, it got really dark and

I was out in the woods, and I got scared because I had to walk back through the woods and I was really scared of animals. But his presence was so, so real and I forgot where I was going with it. Oh, but then I'm preparing to preach and I'm faithfully studying the Word and I'm getting up there going, I don't feel anything right now. You know, and that's happened too. So, it's not a formula. It's not, it's like a relationship with anybody. There are times when you feel more and there are times when you have to pursue more and all those times are meaningful. It's a part of a relationship.

Yeah. And thank you, Jesus, for the word of God that gives us the promise that we'll always come to pass that He does not leave. He's there regardless of how we feel, regardless. I mean, we've dealt with this so much where we're like, oh my gosh, I don't feel like what's happening. And it's such a comforting feeling to think back to the word.

He is there. He's here. He lives right here. He can't be far because he's in here. He's in my heart. And he's right here in the Bible. You can always find him in the Word. Yeah. It's so helpful. So I just want to compliment you and tell your community, I think one of the reasons why God's bringing a favor to you is just because you're pointing people to the Word.

That is so... You could talk about anything. You could be about, hey, let's talk about relationships. Let's talk about all about mental health. Let's talk about how to be your best you. Let's talk about fitness. But when you point people to the Word, the Word is living, it's active. The Word directs, it guides, it corrects us.

And so I just applaud what you're doing. It's the most important thing you could do. Well, like you said, we discovered Jesus through the Word. I'll never forget, I opened John 1 and I, for the first time, understood the Trinity Godhead. I understood that Jesus is alive in this very moment, just from John 1, and it changed my entire life in an instance. And then I just think that like, with the Bible, regardless of how you're feeling, the presence of God, that euphoric feeling, the goosebumps, the crying, all that thing, it might not come because that's not the promise.

However, you do have the word that every single time you open it, you can guarantee that you are receiving Jesus himself because He is the Word made flesh. And so I read those words and He's right here. I don't have to search. I don't have to go anywhere. And sometimes I'm reading and I'm rocking back and forth and I'm freaking out because it's like this whole spiritual encounter that's happening.

And sometimes I'm simply reading and I'm trusting that I am being fed. This is my daily bread. I'm being nourished and it's all good regardless of how I'm trusting that I am being fed. This is my daily bread. I'm being nourished. And it's all good, regardless of how I'm feeling. And then you realize you're not alone, because David, all throughout the Psalms, was doing that. God, where are you? It's like you feel less alone, because this is what his disciples went through too. Yeah, the Bible saved our lives. It's been a roadmap to how to live. It's cured our mental health. It's insane.

For someone who was told that they'll never be cured of anxiety and depression, and his words started feeling in my mind. It's renewed your mind. It's made your mind new. New. It's insane. Washed in the Word.

Yeah. Thank you, Jesus. For my mentorship. Yeah. I think we're coming to a close in a second, but one thing that we wanted to ask you about, if you don't mind, is you did a series on mental health. And so you guys, Craig has, we'll put everything in the description, but he has, you have a

talk on everything. You have a talk on- What that means is that I've been doing this a long time. Someone said the other day, goes, you're really seasoned. I'm like, okay, call it what it is. You're really, really, really good at what you do. It's interesting that there just seems to be a real spiritual attack on mental health today and you can kind of, like all the reasons why are super interesting to study and there are a lot of theories and such. But I would say like that, where

do you go? Turn to Jesus, turn to His word right now and anxiety, cast all your anxiety on Him because He cares for you. What a beautiful thing to do. And unfortunately, I had to walk through some of that 29 years in the ministry, didn't expect it, didn't see it coming, but kind of hit a wall. And so I've got a lot more compassion for people going through that as well. And did some work in counseling and want to say that asking for help

is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of wisdom. I love that. Counseling has literally changed my life. The Holy Spirit's a counselor, right? Yes. And so you can go to God and then God can speak through people and can be so helpful.

It's so helpful. I ask her every day, hey, how's your heart? You good? And it's just driving her nuts. We do heart check-ins every day. So I want to ask you guys this just for the heck of it before we wrap it up, because I want your community here too. How can we pray for you?

Oh, that's so kind. Wow, that is really, really kind. I think something that would be really helpful is just praying for us, praying for protection over our minds, protection against sickness. I've been getting sick a lot recently and I've never gotten sick like this in my life. Specifically when it comes to tour, we were going to ask them this anyways, actually, so this is incredible, but we have our tour schedule out, obviously. If people could intercede on the days where we have a tour night, that would change our entire lives. We need covering on the nights that we have a tour night, so that would be the most helpful

thing if you could intercede those days just for protection. Yeah. And I would say to your community, please do that because people look on and go, wow, God's hands on you and you're traveling and you're talking about Jesus and you're on airplane and it's so much fun and it's just hard, hard and the opposition is real. And as you are being really bold for Jesus, that just invites spiritual attack. And so, I will get your tour list and your dates and I'll get that to Amy and I would just ask your community to take that seriously because that's really important. That really means a lot to us. Thank you.

Thank you so much, Craig. Of course. Man, Jesus bless you, Craig. We mean that. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for your entire team, everybody here. Thank you guys so much, Craig. Man, Jesus bless you, Craig. We mean that. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for your entire team, everybody here. This is, I asked, do you guys have a position? Like we want to come hang out here.

Can we get a little... Don't offer that because we'll take you up on that. I'm about to come here and feel safe. Mad Dog take you on a storm chasing trip. Mad Dog, imagine us chasing storms. Please. That'd be really sad. Okay. Guys, we love you so much. May the Lord bless you and keep you.

May He make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. May He turn His face towards you and give you peace. We love you so much. Shalom, shalom. We said it once, we can't stop saying it. Perfect peace. We're going to put the can't stop saying it. Perfect peace. We're going to put the book in the description. It is going to bless you and change your life, I will tell you, because it blessed me so much.

Amen. you