Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 110 - ASOS Davos III

Episode Date: December 4, 2020

While sitting in his dungeon cell, Davos is joined by unwanted companions.  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, episode 110, Davos 3, In a Storm of Swords. I am one of your hosts Chloe. I am another one of your hosts Eliana and holy shit 110 episodes. You looked really doubtful you guys you all cannot see Eliana but she had the most doubt. I was worried I said something wrong or that I messed up the episode count again. I don't know but you know am like Davos in this episode, full of doubt that we could have done this. And it's not just that we've

done 110 episodes, as many of you know. It's 110 A Song of Ice and Fire episodes, and we do of course have Patreon episodes for all of you. We recently released our November Patreon episode, which was about, finally, at long last, the Lysene Spring and the End of Regency

covering the reign of Aegon III and the last that we know of it in big detail from Fire and Blood. Yes, the Lysene Spring. It's actually a really thick part of the book. It's like 40 pages and I love it. I really

enjoy that part of it. I really enjoy learning about the Rojars or the Rojares or however you want to pronounce it. So if you want to learn all the different pronunciations that Eliana and I have provided for you, you can pick your favorite because we sure didn't. Were we consistent? You tell

us. Our patrons get a special episode every month. $5 per month. Stranger Tyrann up. It'll be either a Song of Ice and Fire or every other month, a His Dark Materials themed episode. So this December, we'll have a His Dark Materials themed episode for you. And we're going to have some special guests we'll be announcing next week. But we have another really exciting announcement about special guests. I think Eliana and I have been really excited about this one.

We have. We have been. We've been trying to keep it quiet, something that we've been working on. And next week, we are going to be joined by our good friend Quinn from Quinn's Ideas on YouTube. You might know Quinn from his extensive analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire, or even more thorough, his analysis of Dune. We had a really great opportunity to guest over on his channel on YouTube for an episode on Melisandre a while back, and we'll have to link that. It was very fun, and we're very excited to have him back. This is like a reunion, actually, right?

Because Melisandre is pretty significant in this chapter. But bigger than that, Quinn recently has written and is publishing Tadia, a 48-page horror fantasy graphic novel about a young girl who was born, well, created into a noble family of manipulative, powerful witches. I'm really excited to hear more about this. I know Eliana, I think you also chipped in on the campaign he did to get this going. And I can't wait for mine. I don't know which perk you chose, but I'm very excited. Yeah, I don't remember which one I chose. It was one of the ones I I hope Quinn signed it. That's what I think I picked. So maybe let me maybe we can ask him if he'll sign it next week. Oh, yeah, that would be fun on air but yeah so i'm

actually super excited from the first moment where he was like talking about putting this together i'm a big fan of comics i was really looking forward to the day that it would go on sale and i'm like you know quinn as you said covers a lot of these other fantasy and sci-fi series but he loves horror and and things like that and it's exciting to see him butt into his own creation and see what comes out of that from someone who loves this genre yeah and the story is actually a background of lore that he created right it's really distinct and he's influenced with it from like celt mythology, the Fomori of the other world, Nordic, African mythology, a ton of different fantasy elements. So I'm excited to get my copy. I have a I watched the video, and I've read some of the stuff he's put out, but I'm not spoiling

myself any further. I'm very excited for the experience. And I really hope that next week, he will be able to let us know. I don know maybe some insider info you know agreed like I've seen some of it but I'm also trying to like go into it like just fall into the story and the art looks amazing too like I mean that's a big draw right for a lot of comics someone who loves art and yeah yeah and really cool is the coven that representation he's bringing into it because he is an avid sims player as you may have noticed i play a good amount of the sims sims of the simulation you know fame from ea and maxis uh and we're both big sims 4 fans we talk about it pretty often we were pretty hyped about the new pack. So I'm sure we are going to ask him what his opinion was on the new expansion pack,

Snowy Escape from the Sims 4, because I am, I'm split on it. So we'll talk about that next week. But more importantly, we'll be talking about Davos 4 in A Storm of Swords with Quinn. Again, reuniting to talk about Stannis and melisandre and davos yeah and you know part of what's fun about this is as all of you know we are die hard stannis fans on this podcast and by that i mean we we are uh we are i think very justifiably critical of stannis on this podcast. And, you know, Quinn is also recorded with our friends Gray Area and Jeff

on a sort of judge, a trial of Stannis. So we thought, who better to come join us to be critical of Stannis? That's, I think, putting it lightly, what we're gonna do next week.

Quinn has the credentials that is for sure so next week Quinn will be your other other host a girl gone canon officially once you come on this you're officially a girl gone canon that is kind of the rule I was gonna say I don't make the rules but I literally

do so that being said the last piece of housekeeping we have for you all is that we will have an altered holiday schedule coming up in December here. We will have that out for patrons first, and you will hear about it next week on Davos 4. It'll be brief. Nothing crazy.

You're still getting episodes, but we're going to move some stuff around. So stay tuned for that. Yes. And part of that holiday schedule that we'll be talking about will include when you can anticipate the Discord Brunch slash Happy Hour. So sorry to Lenny, who recently commented

on Podbean, we read these, of being sad that they had missed the Brunch slash Happy Hour and the announcement for it, so we'll make sure to flag that this time around a little more prominently like are we

are we a little crazy right now with his dark materials which you'll be seeing episodes of those in your feed as well and with a swap yes yes we are and this is the way we like to live our life yes on the wire do we like it deb our life. Yes. Do we? On the wire. Do we like it?

Debatable. That said, we have a, like our holiday schedule, which is going to be slightly altered, we have a slightly altered lightning round again. In the past few weeks, I've been altering our lightning round,

where if you're new here, we tell you what happened real quick, get through it, chop, chop. But Davos has a lot of chapters in between his chapters. All the time. A lot. So I chose characters that are more isolated from the other point of views. Jaime, Catelyn, Dany, Bran, and the exception of course to this list is Tyrion, who is post-Blackwater politicking, which feels important.

We'll catch up with Arya, Jon, Sansa, and Sam another day, aka some of the other best POVs. Actually, they're all good. But that said, Eliana, will you read us in on Jaime 2? Jaime 2. Jaime, Brienne, and Klios arrive at the Kneeling Man Inn, where Jaime recalls some of the past traumas of working for King Aerres II Targaryen.

Tyrion too. Varys reveals some of the tricks of the trade, like having connections to the Citadel. Tyrion hopes to use Varys' connections to spend time with Shae, but he knows the facade cannot last forever. Catelyn too. Robb returns, and Catelyn is surprised to not be heavily chastised by her son until he introduces her to his new wife! Edmure is the one who gets berated for his failures in battle, although Robb broke the main alliance that they needed to win independence, but also at the same time, Walder Frey sucks, so, like, let's really just,

you know, stop pointing fingers. I thought that was a good centrist take on it all, truly. But also, Rob was projecting. He was like, yes. Oh, yeah. As boys are wont to do. As 16-year-old children do.

Tyrion 3. Tyrion, 3. Tyrion says no to the dress, but Tywin says yes. Catelyn, 3. Rob must bring justice to men who commit treason against their kings. Interesting.

Jaime, 3. On the move from Maidenpool to Duskendale Jamie, Brienne, and Kleos are attacked Kleos dies, rip But Jamie and Brienne are captured And just like Stannis in this episode End up short a hand Heyo!

Haha, I still got it, folks Daenerys 2 Daenerys learns the subtleties of an unsullied army and begins to plan on how to acquire it. Also, some men talk at her. Mood. That could be any Dany chapter. Could be any Dany chapter. Just always saying things at her.

You know, just always saying stuff at her. Not to her, just at her. Around her. Ugh. Alright. It's natural I get this one. Of course. Brand two. all right it's natural i get this one of course and two are you sure you haven't heard this story before prince bran it's only the best chapter fucking best chapter and that brings us to this chapter a storm of swords davos three where davos is a prisoner beneath the molten rock of the island, and soon, he gets a new roommate.

The worst kind of roommate, I'm just gonna put that out there. The cell is dark, it's dank, it's full of rats, but at least it's warm. It turns out the stony passages beneath Dragonstone are always warm, they're warmer as you go down. He thinks, perhaps the old tales are true, Dragonstone was built warm. They're warmer as you go down. He thinks, perhaps the old tales are true. Dragonstone was built with the stones of hell. Man, Dragonstone really does seem like the underworld with its dour Hades figure in Stannis. And I really just, again,

cannot wait to hear the Dragonstone chapters from Dany's POV, where she's probably going to come to it and be like, this place is amazing. And even if Dragonstone is built on the stones of hell though seems like this is a place where davos is healing right now he came in quite sick when he was at the dungeon you know he was delusional and plotting a murder and moods bloody blisters andivers, and he thought he was going to die, but Maester Pylos came to take care of him with hot garlic broth and then milk of the poppy.

He is awakened to leech marks, realizing, oh, they leeched him as he slept to drain his blood, which sounds bad, but of course is actually an act of love and good. Yeah, love. Good. Good. He begins to eat heartier and his blisters vanish the cough leaves and then

he once more has his strength yeah one of his jailers porridge is broad and squat with an iron studded brigantine and he brings davos oat and porridge every day sometimes with honey or milk damn the other is lamprey old sallow wearing a doublet of white velvet with a ring of stars on the breast and he brings davos meat mash stews once even lamprey pie i can't believe my dragon stone tax dollars are paying for this like davos is down there eating like a king you know what i ate ate today? An English muffin until dinner. I'm just kidding.

That was my own problem. Jokes aside, something really cool here is that Lamprey, or the guard formerly known as Lamprey, is wearing Lord Sunglass's doublet. Yes, the doublet is seven golded seven point stars in a ring on white. So that is what is on this doublet so they likely stripped lord sunglass down into his shifter naked when they burnt him so i'm guessing lamprey probably snagged it interesting and i think we see that happen in some of the camps too but it becomes a pretty significant point actually in this chapter, which we'll come up to again. And so naturally, when this food is getting delivered by these guards, which they're both just wearing, I think it said this doublet is too short for him.

That's the other tip off, by the way. But as he's waiting, he starts to tell time through them, right? Because food is delivered at different times. But neither of these men will speak to him. And he starts trying to manipulate it and like specifically like tries to provoke them to get a rise out of them. And it completely reminded me of Ariane when she's trapped in the tower. Yeah, and how she tries to get information out of them.

And eventually she does, right? There's definitely, I think, some heavy shades of that Ariane chapter. And interestingly, some Princess in the Tower vibes, even though, you know, with Sansa's chapters, even though Davos is a smuggler in the dungeon. He's a princess to me. And there's also, I think, an aspect of it that really reminds me of some of those early Ned chapters in A Game of Thrones when he himself is also in prison. He's also quite ill, right? Because he's just suffered this injury and also has some fevers when he's down there.

He has his fever dream, of course, and gets a visit from someone. We'll talk about that in a bit. But somehow in the oblivion of the dungeons for Davos, it's kind of become a sort of welcome reprieve for him after everything that's happened in his life between, you know, the battle, losing his sons, right? It's a really healing providence where he gets great food. And it's better, of course, in the open air dungeon he kind of had when he was like stuck on that tiny rock. And we talked a lot about the movie Castaway, which I still haven't seen and he can just

kind of go through the motions right and and not have to deal with the world yet with his sons being dead other than really you know he knows two of the others are safe and asks for news about devon i do see the ned really strongly even more so this time rereading it and it's almost it's not a one-to-one but it has all the same exact themes right of protecting the children and doing things that he's not supposed to actually do in order to protect the children and of course being jailed for it and blah blah blah these are just the themes that revolve around Davos as we move forward in this so it's interesting bringing up the Ned chapters for sure yeah Davos marks the passage of days, as you said, by the food and the changing of torches. It's better than for Ned, who's like, I don't know when it is.

And Davos talks to them whenever they visit, again, asking about news about the war, if the king is well. He asks after Princess Shireen, his son, Devon, and Salador's son. No response comes to them, though for half a heartbeat, he thinks, maybe Porridge is gonna say something to me? He looks like he wants to say something. But Lamprey, you know, he's strong-willed, he's not so weak. Davos

thinks, I am not a man to him. Davos thought, only a stone that eats and shits and speaks. He's sounding mighty stone-hearted right now. He is, he is. What I want to kind of know is, like, is Lamprey, you know, sometimes they make it sound like it's not appetizing,

but here it's, like, because it's so rich, like, so is Lamprey actually, like, delicious? It seems like it's a kind of eel, right? They're terrifying-looking, if you ever look up Lamprey's, like, stuff and nightmares, but I'm just like, does it seems like it's a kind of eel right they're terrifying looking if you ever look up lampreys like stuff and nightmares but i'm just like does it taste like you know the preparation for like japanese like unagi which is also eel and is delicious and i just add lamprey to my list of food i gotta try one day yeah apparently it's in the super class of cyclostomatas it's a jawless fish is what it's technically called and it's actually inaccurate to call it an eel is what i have just learned

from my research aliana that i've done already in preparation for this podcast right this moment talking to you well so uh who even knows lampreys could taste truly like anything but apparently quite rich is lamprey delicious they have a different taste like squid okay i'd be into it i like squid yeah similar to squid i love squid i think there's a restaurant around here that does it nice and grilled, seared, and they sprinkle lemon on it. Amazing. Gotta have it. Yeah. Fucks with that.

He does throw this up, though, by the way. He throws up the lamprey pie that he gets because it's far too rich. So maybe no lamprey for me. I mean, it depends on the day, right? depends on the day right like it depends on if you've been starving and struggling with exposure for weeks on a deserted island and then tried to murder your king's advisor and then got imprisoned and was recovering from all of that infection in a dungeon maybe let's start with some rice you know what i mean the brat diet ever heard of that Yeah. Well, Davos likes porridge the best. Interesting.

That's what you said. And porridge has, I know, porridge has a queer kindness, right? He also possibly feeds the rats, Davos has noticed. He thinks he hears porridge speaking to them like children, but he's not quite sure if it's that or if it's a fever dream. Again, very much so like Ned. And it is for real he's got to be talking to his rats i mean i talk to my cats all the time like children and they're literally glorified rats right i almost glossed past this in total it was just really funny to me that he's

just feeding the rats i'm like i love porridge i mean i don't know how i feel about it but it's in the dungeon so i guess you know he's like whatever they can be my friends here but yeah and other than that i kind of wonder if we're supposed to be getting some vibes about like the legend of the rat king from this oh especially like the lamprey can i mean yeah the the like you were talking about the water connotations right the merling spears yeah and I don't know that it's like channeling that exactly but there's something here that just kind of makes me think of that

and you know Stannis' folks right when they were under the siege they were reduced to eating rats there's just a lot of stuff about rats that makes me think of both cannibalism and guest right and things like that so especially when you have theon right uh getting in with ramsey soon and eventually reek as we come back to a dance with dragons and i think he does tie those themes

really strongly together there's also something that i've been thinking in the way that you know the the manderleys were southerners and you know they had to go north to start their new lives out of exile from the south got kicked out of the south yeah so there's something in that as well for the idea of like stannis isn't wanted in the south no one wants him and so he goes north and i really think there's something intrinsically linking how george wrote that together i like it a lot that is interesting and you know i haven't thought much about the manderleys but they are quite accepted like they don't feel like they're southerners you know yeah so there's something going on there

davos also wonders if there's something going on here his his life, if he's being kept alive. He's like, maybe the food's a tip off, you know, I'm being fanned out for the fires. But he kind of doesn't want to know the reason because he's just really hoping that it's not the same as for Lord Sunglass or Hubert of Rampton's sons who were given to the fire and everyone took their clothes. And I was like, fuck, I should have just drowned myself if I was gonna get burned anyway he thought he'd sooner feed the crabs and the flames and you know I've learned quite a little bit about how fire kills people especially in torturing situations from the burning God the last book of the Poppy War trilogy and there's a demonstration right of a, not demonstration

because it's written, but of a squirrel being burned and that it, you know, singes the fur and then the flesh etc. burned alive and that it really it's like the asphyxiation or something that kills it after a while, after all the oxygen burns off and, you know, everything's been

horrible because you're burning, so. Great, that's awful. Yeah. All right, so Davos is finishing his dinner. It's a couple days later. But suddenly he feels a flush. And there she is, shimmering in all of her red, scarlet glory. It's Melisandre.

It's one of those be careful what you wish for things. Because we have Davos, right? He's longing for the sound of another human voice as he talks to the rats and then suddenly he's like fuck why this one? Why me? They end up exchanging some small talk right like these little polite greetings

and she asks him do you lack for anything and he's like my kings, my sons, are you here to burn me? And she studies him through the bars telling him the dungeons are a foul place with no light sir davos or sorry she doesn't actually call him sir davos right she doesn't i find the way that they first greet one another very interesting they just call each other by their names in a way but it's not like he says

my lady or gives her any courtesies he just says mel Melisandre. So I wonder if that's meant to sort of be an equalizing thing or almost disrespectful by not calling her by any title. And then Melisandre just calls him Onion Knight. Like, imagine you just greet someone Onion Knight after not seeing them for a while. And she does call him Sir Davos at a couple of other times. And then there's some other times where she calls him Sir Onions. And no one else has called him that other than her, I think. I like that she's playing, like, as we know, when we get to her chapter, she's playing her own game. And she's completely not at all where any of us thought she was.

Even us that were like, I suspect Melisandre is deeper than she is. That chapter was such a mind blowing POV. No one was expecting it. It was like, whoa, Melisandre's deeper than she is. That chapter was such a mind-blowing POV. No one was expecting it. It was like, whoa, Melisandre, big deal. And it's almost as if she's playing her own fun little game here, obviously, because she's withholding all this info from him, and I really do like it. Yeah, I think-

She has the upper hand. She has the upper hand. She, you know, she's quite earnest in a lot of things but i also feel like you kind of see she has a sense of humor here i don't think of melisandre necessarily he's always having a sense of humor but and i don't know that it's like necessarily that mean-spirited it's like uh they're ribbing each other right she calls them sir onions yeah they're bantering they are they are and there's a lot but also also with the banter davos is like this really is not fun yeah he's like i don't want to be flirting she's like flirting he's like no please she's like you're my prisoner and we're gonna flirt

this is all that stands between you and the darkness, Onion Knight. This little fire, this gift of Verlore. Shall I put it out? No. He moved toward the bars. Please. He did not think he could bear that, to be left alone in utter blackness with no one but the rats for company. The red woman's lips curved upward in a smile.

So you have come to love the fire, would seem i need the torch his hands opened and closed i will not beg her i will not i think you really captured the desperation in his voice there from that moment which is great and i liked your playfulness in the second half, by the way. Thank you. Yeah, I thought that that seemed right. Apparently she smiles. And yeah, the desperation that Davos exhibits in that moment, it kind of really shows you this symbol for the torch, I think. It's that hope for him in this moment. But also I think it's something that we can think about throughout the story.

You know, without the torch, as he says, he's left in darkness and loneliness. All he'll have are the rats. And I think that we see what that hopelessness, not having a torch, being left alone does for a lot of characters throughout this book. It's one of Dany's fears, I think. We see that in some of her dreams during a Clash of Kings. It's kind of what happened to Tyrion. And Melisandre isn't great at explaining it to Davos, but I think that is what Valor is to her, this torch and this fire of hope. And I think that's especially in many ways what Stannis is to Melisandre. Royal, of course, I, really curious to see how Stannis' demise is going to affect Davos, but it's obviously going to affect Melisandre as well. We also see in this moment that Davos refuses to beg for the torch to be kept, even though it's of great importance to

him. And, you know, I think part of what keeps his hope alive is that pride that he has. And that that's, he's kind of standing opposite to melisandre that's where his pride is coming from in this moment yeah you know men like to be right eliana davos isn't sure if he's right or not yeah she explains that she is like the torch an instrument of her lore to keep darkness away he doesn't believe her. He calls her the mother of darkness with her actions on Storm's End, and she asks if he's so frightened of a passing shadow made by light. She admits Stannis can't make another son with her right now, or he may die, but says if Davos wants to serve the king's cause, he should come to her chamber, experience

immense pleasure, like out of his mind could never have this kind of orgasm with a plain woman like the wife who he refuses to talk to even though he murdered their children on accident and she would create something with davos's life fire sorry some of that was ad-libbed so davos is not into banging melisandre. He calls having sex with her and birthing a shadow baby a horror, saying that he wants no part of her or her god and prays to the seven. And so I wonder if there are people who are not like Stannis who have it in them to actually make more shadow babies than just two, like whose fires burn hotter and brighter. And I kind of wonder, like, yep, that's what I'm saying. That's how I'm saying it. And I wonder if Beric is one of those.

You know, he was able to come back seven times. Oh, yeah, in many ways, actually. Oh, he is. I know it. I know it's big. I know it's big. And obviously, you know, god it it is that's that's clearly how the amount of shadow babies is measured but beyond that um i just know we have to talk beyond that uh sorry it's so hard to switch

between the different things now. We have to talk a little bit about Melisandre here in these chapters, of course, and we will. You know, Melisandre's character here challenges Davos on a lot of things and presents these huge philosophical questions about the world. And really, I think, sharpens her stance and therefore, in doing so, the stances of the characters around her. But I think that we are, of course, going to just want to preface that if we don't dive deep into Melisandre here, because we definitely will, of course,

one day in her own POV chapter, and we do have plans. Plans for when that chapter does eventually come out. Yeah, you know, I can't give too many secrets away, but it's going to sting like a red widow, I think. I'm hoping.

You know, you'll see. Wait it out. It's worth it. It's worth it. It's going to be a hot episode. Yeah, Melisandre asks, why does Davos cling to these false gods? As you know, they didn't save devout guns or sunglass, and Davos has worshipped

these gods, though, he says, his whole life. But Melisandre thinks he's being foolish. And, I mean, maybe he is, because after all, Davos has kind of been worshipping and serving a false god this whole time, in many ways, Stannis, and part of me wonders if that's why Mel thinks he's lying. It's true. Or lying to himself.

There's a lot of that, uh, this chapter. I'm's a lot of that uh this chapter i'm finding a lot of these little hypocrisies right of like oh well i believe this well doesn't that mean you're wrong melisandre or davos doesn't that mean one of you is wrong here everyone's wrong and everyone's right it is complex it's very complex very gray maybe it's not black and white, but let's see what Melisandre thinks it is. You have never feared to speak the truth to kings. Why do you lie to yourself? Open your eyes, Sir Knight.

What is it you would have me see? The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors. The day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice, there is fire. Hate and love, bitter and sweet, male and female.

Pain and pleasure, winter and summer. Evil and good. She took a step toward him death and life everywhere opposites everywhere the war she expands on that in a second she explains to davos there are two there are two onion night not seven not one not a hundred or a thousand, two. Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the lord of light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other, whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness,

the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life, darkness, or light. She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly, does your heart burn with the shining light of her lore, or is it black and cold and full of worms? shining light of R'hllor?

Or is it black and cold and full of worms? The way you read that last line was very beautiful, thank you. It was very, uh, like... And you can't do shit because you're literally behind these bars and I still have the torch. I'm not convinced she knows

actually titles now that I look at this, because she goes Sir Knight, Sir Davos that's something to think about no she might not actually yeah I'm being serious I mean she's like she's not from Westeros maybe

so I'm as far as we know it's adorable either way it is she lays her hand on Davos' chest to feel his truths or his chest and he tells her his heart is full of doubts melisandre sighs saying even now he's good and honest in darkness and says it's good he didn't lie to her because she would have known she says the other servants oft hide black hearts in a gaudy light so relore gives his priests the power to see I love this line because obviously it has a ton of imagery of the others right here.

Reminds me very much of the others and also some of this class consciousness that we're seeing Davos encounter throughout the story, including Alistair's ignorance about what Davos lost in the Blackwater right before Melisandre arrived. But yeah, Alistair Florent expected Davos to know about his life, right? Like a Wikipedia celebrity article. You know, like, who are you, Jared Kushner? Shut up, Alistair. That idea of gaudy light reflecting there, the hiding black hearts and gaudy light, even reminds you of the shiny tinny armor like Alistair's. It sounds gorgeous with those inlaid flowers, but as we learn in the Blackwater from countless other losses, impractical. Melisandre speaks of there being two gods, two higher powers, two sides, the great icy god of terror and darkness and the other or relore your heart has worms or it has light also if this is true doesn't that mean stannis's heart has worms i don't make

the rules anyways uh melisandre literally just made these rules out loud to us this becomes more literal in the story you hear robert later called the king of worms by sandor clegane against the brotherhood without banners. We see royalty play these vicious war games and they end up consumed by worms. Axel himself says in Davos 4, a black worm grows in Stannis' soul. And even Catelyn isn't denied the worm theme in A Storm of Swords, right? Slow red worms crawled along her arms and under her clothes. It tickles. Melisandre's monologue will come into play as we finish a storm of swords up in the next handful of weeks and as davos's heart is full of light in the actions he

takes like freeing edrick or in urging stannis to go north and protect the people but while davos's heart is full of light again what about that worm growing in stannis's soul we're talking about interesting just thoughts it's like uh almost almost makes me think that the fourth book could have been called a feast for worms i'm not really joking uh i mean it doesn't have the same ring to it as a feast for crows but it's a similar idea that's going on there right and i love that that call out of his older brother having been the king of worms give them all heartworm medicine like for dogs oh my god and what about runley he's now king of worms too or wait no he was king of shadow death oh that's true also you're next well

i came from the the worms that came out of stannis' other worm. So, you know, it's a fascinating chapter, right? Because we have a question of Davos' morality and he's doubting himself. He's in a vulnerable place right now after, you know, his sons have all died and he's been dehydrated

and infected and everything and as we know Davos has always kind of stood steadfast in believing in grayness and ambiguity, but part of that's exhibited now in how he feels. And that's a thing that I think is, interestingly, kind of in contrast to Ned. Ned feels a lot of guilt and doubt for himself in many ways, but he's pretty sure, he's very,

very sure that he's doing the right thing in standing up against Joffrey until Varys comes, and he's the one who actually shows him, you know, the thing that you think is right isn't the way that it is, right? And Melisandre, as opposed to Melisandre here, who is the one who's very sure in her morality. And I think davos doubting himself is something that we see in a lot of the other protagonists in this story a lot of our other pob chapters like john and danny but there are people who don't necessarily doubt themselves and i think we see that exhibited in some of the men in stannis's camp especially in asha's chapters and they're the ones who are truly terrifying you know the

ones who are so sure in their morality that they can justify whatever they're doing and there are other characters in this story those are some self-assured men they are they are very to have confidence like that truly where do i get that? And there are other characters in the story, right? Like Jojen, who argue against Melisandre's point of view that there is light and there is dark, good and evil, beyond just onions, right? Because Jojen has that line of if ice can burn, then love and hate can mate. And we see it arise throughout the story over and over and over where the two things that seem separate or opposite are in fact one in the same so in a way i think kind of what the faith of the seven is right it's seven different things that seem different but they're all one

whereas as opposed to two different opposed gods yeah it's a great point i definitely think the the whole black and white good or bad but if stannis's overarching story is going the way it's going then by melisandre's logic worms for brains and heart worms for heart. A wormst? A wormst? Melisandre asks Davos why he meant to kill her, and he says he'll tell her if she names his betrayer. He's praying it's not Salador, because Salador was obviously the one who could betray him. But it turns out Melisandre says she just knew. Man, she saw it in the fire.

Melisandre says she just knew. Man, she saw it in the fire. Davos doesn't understand how she saw that in the fire, but didn't foresee their fate on the Blackwater and the loss of his sons, his ship, and his men. You know, interestingly, Melisandre in fact did see that moment in her

flames. She just read it wrong as a future to avoid but somehow actually made it happen. And in fact, Dav Davos you were there when Stannis and Melisandre told you about the time that they saw this moment in their flames you know there's another flames moment in the next chapter I'm really excited to talk

about it then but Axel Florent has some interesting flame stuff as well where he claims to see things and it's just interesting this whole camp is really messy right now is what I'm trying to tell you like they are drama loving messy bitches uh and they are that's but he also blames her right like so davos is then like well you did this it's all your fault you did this these were your flames and she's like those weren't my fires if i was there i would have saved the day onions

and the reality is that his grace she says was surrounded by unbelievers who pushed him to forget his faith in the face of pride and he was punished grievously for it and stannis learned from it okay but did he though i know did he though i mean i agree with the first half of what melisandre says here you you know? Did he learn a lesson? He was pushed by people to forget things and his pride. But did he learn anything from it? Debatable. I mean, I guess we learn right here that Jagurl is not letting him in the bed.

Right? I guess that's something. She's like, we can't make shadow babies. But I think you could fuck without making shadow babies. Right? No, I agree. It's just you can't. shadow baby but i think you could fuck without making shadow babies right no i agree it's just you can't you gotta pull out and i think that that's the rumors that are going on in the north they that's what they say right that they share a bed and they very well might and sanis

has just got to pull out hey it's not treason if you pull out we've been over this if you come on her back if you don't what was the exact side her you don't finish inside. It's not treason if you don't come inside her. You don't finish inside her. It's not treason if you don't finish inside her, Eliana. Oh my god. I can't believe I'm saying this to you, but I almost sometimes miss

Jamie chapters. That was a real line from the Asaga of Ice and Fire series. It's not treason if you don't finish inside her. You know, it's really sad because she calls it him forgetting his faith in the face of pride, but it's also like your seduction and your, you know, here's Azor Ahai, come again, didn't work for him in his military playground right like the men pushed him and they're like no that's not how you win this and she was left behind and

davos is like sitting in the cell and people just keep showing up and just like danny in that chapter we talked about earlier they're just talking at him right like davos is sitting here so traumatized and alistair is like going off like oh my life is so sad i guess my nephew died but you know what what what i'm missing my favorite armor and blah blah blah uh and melisandre comes in like ah onion knight you want to have sex like he could get back in the good graces with his graces if you have sex with me and the only thing davos can even think here and it's the saddest line is were my sons no more than a lesson for a king then davos felt his mouth tighten yeah it's a it's a great line that wonders about uh his place and his class here it's something

that he kind of has a gnawing at the back of his head as to where he belongs and fits into all this. But, you know, the line does for them to be a lesson for a king. It assumes that Stannis learned anything. And to repeat what you said earlier, Chloe, I mean, did he? Did he learn anything?

I don't think he did. I don't think he did. Maybe not yet. Not yet. But unfortunately, Davos, your sons died. Not as a lesson for a king, but out of a king's foolish pride, and he learned nothing from it. Melisandre goes on to explain to Davos that this war will not stop.

And even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze. Stannis is not a man, nor a king. He's the warrior of fire, Azor Ahai, as written in prophecy. When the red star bleeds and darkness gathers, Azor Ahai will be born amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons of stone. A couple of the lines here, such as an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze, I'm pretty sure that's just a different take on the line of a single grain of rice can tip the scale one man may be the difference between

victory and defeat from the Mulan animated movie in 1998 two years before a storm of swords just so you know it's possible and also about waking dragons from stone granted that came out I think that was in Clash but I'm just saying I'm just saying i i'm just

saying anyways uh there's many interesting things to discuss regarding again the many things that melisandre puts forth here one of the things she she asserts is that sinis is not a man as creston thinks he is nor just a king as davos thinks he is but that he is azor ahai and that's his role and i think that erases part of what the story again is saying about people that they are more than just one thing or aspect that sometimes men can cast different shadows based on where the light comes from and what kind of light that there isn't just one light as we discussed a few episodes ago and Stannis is a man and a king just as Ned was a father and a lord and a friend and a hand and just as Davos himself is also a father and a knight and a smuggler and a lord and a hand and even a traitor as he is now, and that Melisandre to some is the Red Woman, the Red Witch, a true queen, but also, as we're going to find out, she's also Melanie.

and Melisandre's presence in this chapter, again, what's interesting is it so strongly emphasizes Davos's doubt and his unsureness, especially after the defeat and the loss that he suffered, and I mean, that makes sense, right? Why he feels that way. How can he be so sure of his choices when it led to the deaths of his sons? They were real to him. They weren't lessons to him. when it led to the deaths of his sons. They were real to him. They weren't lessons to him. He loved them. And, but it's Melisandre in contrast,

her solidity in her positions that I think really brings that aspect of Davos into focus. And again, we'll discuss this more another day, but I think we'll see more of Melisandre's own doubts and dance. She does a great job of putting on a front of confidence and it will, I think think be this big emotional driver and wins with stannis's own fall as she starts to question her own faith alongside erin damp hair gray joy's own religious crisis which is also incredibly intense to so it's a very intense

religious crisis he's going through but anyway while sandra kind of does the opposite of what varies it does for ned in the cells again despite bearing similarities to it and she doesn't really force Stavos to take any specific action like Chloe you said with Dany being visited by people they dress all kind of common they're like here are some interesting thoughts Dany yeah

and are they interesting we don't know we just don't know well and something in this that really spoke to me I mean there are a lot of Daenerys similarities, which we're going to find because Dragonstone, Stannis, you know, Rightful Thrones, yada, yada. You've read the books. This is a reread podcast.

Love Interest of Jon Snow. Yeah, Love Interest. Oh, my God. This is a reread comedy podcast, as all know so the line before even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze screams of danny's dragons right i mean that is dead ass eggs that you just thought weren't gonna grow and then she throws them in the fire and boom a spark a great blaze um i think there's a lot going on there with that imagery yeah yeah her herself as well and her hair she seemed like she was her hair yeah she seemed like you know at the end of a game of thrones like it was on the verge of the end of their line

a stillbirth her brother dead uh and her feeling like the last sargerian and then here we are yeah a rebirth the bleeding star has come and gone and dragon stone is the place of smoke and salt stannis baratheon is azura high reborn is he though is he though is he davos is in big doubt of all this he's like we're lower schmallor and mel's like you'll serve him once more she leaves him in a swirl of skirts and that ambiguous vague ass phrase and just like goes but she leaves the torch and her scent lingers which i believe we know from john, it's cinnamony, like cinnamon, like autumn. Oh, that's right.

She smells like autumn. Yes, she smells like pumpkin spice. Oh my god. He returns to the sound of his rats thinking ice and fire and of all the duality that Melisandre spoke of and that he can't deny R'hllor's power, not after seeing what crawled from her womb

or the knowledge that she's learned in the flames. He's especially glad Salador didn't sell him out, but mouth spying on him freaks him out a little, and the concept of serving R'hllor a little more than that. Yeah, he stares into the torch's flames, unblinking, unyielding, trying to see something but only sees flames, and exhausted, he goes to bed. Three days later, he gets a new roommate. It's Sir Alistair Florent, yelling, MADNESS, and just making a total scene. He's being dragged by guards in velour garb, and his brother, Axel, is trailing behind him, watching. He was an older man, tall and slender, with silvery-gray hair, a pointed beard, and a long, elegant face twisted in fear.

Where is Selyse? Where is the queen I demand to see her? The others take you all! Release me! The guards paid no mind to his outcries. Yeah, Porridge opens the cell for him, and Davos thinks for an instant that, ooh, I should rush them and escape, but then he's like, that's ridiculous. Alistair is then plopped into Davos' cell to enjoy a fellow traitor's company, while screeching that he is no traitor! He did not come inside! Um, Davos notes his speech as being highborn, and thinks that his birth will not serve him here. And then Davos catches Alistair as he is charged into the cell forcefully, but then he wrenches away, staggering to the closing door and shouting, nooooo, that he is the king's hand. Anyway, so the way that the jailers are here, that's definitely true. It's kind of fascinating here that the cells kind of become a very equalizing place.

We talked a little bit before about how the names and the way that Davos and Melisandre refer to one another serve to be a sort of like power or dynamic sort of play. And I think that the cells kind of wipe that slate for a lot of people and maybe the cells are this underneath area beneath dragon stone is a place of rebirth in a as well it's the womb of the earth in dragon stone and i mean davos is later reborn right well as in no longer ill and eventually climbs to a higher position yeah absolutely and literally in the next chapter that's what he does right like he quite literally climbs up the stairs like you were saying earlier it's very underworld right it's very he was below the ground and he

climbs up and he comes to the surface and you get this whole kind of thing in davos four of him seeing no light no light no light, no light, no light and then finally he sees light and he gets to the storm's drum and it's really well written compared to this where he's just been shut down here. But did this not read like

first DUI for Alistair Florent, right? Like rich person's first time in jail. He's like, do you know who rich person's first time in jail he's like do you know who i am yeah and i love that he's like all like i'm not a traitor and then davos as we're about to get to is like so what'd you do and he's like everything a traitor would do but not coming inside again hey it's not treason if you don't finish inside, everyone. Yep. And yeah, it's absolutely that. And Alistair's kind of fun down here.

He's an interesting character because he's not as obnoxious as Axel or as weaselly as Axel, but he's just more privileged. And that's also obnoxious and very like, I don't know, just like an heir of a rich dude that is worried about his ships and worried about his house yeah his many houses yeah pretty much but he's interesting down here especially compared to davos yeah and davos knows who he is almost immediately he like like, at first he's like, who? Oh, it's Alistair. And Alistair at first is the same way. He's like, who are?

Oh, Onion Knight. He accuses Davos of trying to kill Melisandre, which Davos does not deny. Instead, he kind of reacts surprised at his appearance to see how the mighty have fallen, exclaiming, wow, last time I saw you, you wore red gold armor with inlay lapis flowers on the breastplate at Storm's End. Alistair apologizes for his appearance and explains,

I lost most of my goods when the Lannisters overran my camp. He says he escaped with the mail on his back and the rings on his fingers. We get a quote, he still wears those rings, noted Davos, who had lacked even all of his fingers. No doubt some cook's boy or groom is prancing around King's Landing just now in my slashed velvet doublet and jeweled cloak, Lord Alistair went on, oblivious,

but war has its own horrors, as all men know. No doubt you suffered your own losses my ship said davos all my men four of my sons may uh may may the lord of light lead them through the darkness to a better world the other man said may the father judge them justly and the mother grant them mercy davos thought but he kept his prayer to himself. The seven had no place on Dragonstone now. I love that hesitation from Alistair for a split second when he's about to give this sort of blessing to Davos. It's almost like he's about to say the exact same prayer that Davos says like two seconds later in his head and then remembers, oh wait, no, that's right, I converted publicly. He does this in the next chapter, actually,

to his brother, I'm pretty sure, too. He actually slips up to his brother when he's again crying about being a traitor, yadda yadda. Yeah, the people, they love calling each other on that shit in Stannis' camp. Again, they are messy, dramatic

motherfuckers. They are. You know, earlier we talked about the Lamprey Guard taking the doublet off of Lord Sunglass, and something that really stuck out in this passage is when Alistair complained about his slashed velvet doublet and

his jeweled cloak. So, because it is, you know, a passion project of mine, I took the time to see what I could find about doublets and cloaks in chapters surrounding this in King's Landing. And I think I found a match, Eliana, for this doublet and cloak. It might not be real, but I think symbolically, like, it makes sense. So stick with me here. A Storm of Swords, Tyrion V.

Bronn, tell the boy what you see. Bronn looked very much the knight today in his new doublet and cloak, the flaming chain across his chest. Are there descriptors of that new doublet and cloak? No. That's it. That's all I get. But in my opinion, because these chapters are so close in proximity to each other, and because literally he says, oh, someone's probably wearing it. Not only that, but Bronn's also kind of this perfect person to pick up this cloak and doublet, because as we see Bronn, he starts off as this tiny character, just a sellsword, and then he begins to get more responsibility by hiring the 800 sellswords for Tyrion for the Blackwater, and then moving upward from there, gaining the system and becoming Ser Bronn of the Blackwater. Him taking the armor is representative of how easily you see things like Brightwater keep

that was originally Alistair's given over to Garland Tyrell. And the dark side of Stannis in Davos IV, when he says, we'll make new lords, yeah, that's great, but, uh, there's the opposite side to that. You can just make new lords whenever. They can make more of them, anytime. Bronn is knighted after the Blackwater, and he ends up marrying into the Stokeworth family,

exploiting and murdering part of the family, which then makes him and Tanda lord and lady of Stokeworth. Regarding Davos' interiority on religion, it also really is reminding me of Sansa in King's Landing as you mentioned with the princess and the tower vibes, like her having to watch her every move in King's Landing lest she say something wrong and lose her head, but yet at the same time thinking all the snarky things that they really wish they could be saying. Oh yeah, that's a great point. Here, in the cells, Davos can say whatever the fuck he wants, kinda. Alistair's still kinda watching himself, but yeah, I think that's a great point to point out, the doublet, Yeah, I think that's a great point to point out, the doublet, and I realize now that's why Davos is like, it's interesting that Lord Alistair would say some cook's boy or groom is prancing around in his now-slash-doublet and jeweled cloak and is oblivious because, I mean, there's someone here, right, who's prancing around in someone else's old doublet. And he's like, well, you better hope that that actually doesn't really happen to you, Alistair, because then that might mean you'll get burned, which he does.

So look at the clothes of the people around you. Davos has his fashion hour. just not like maybe you just shouldn't be judging people on their clothes when you're literally in a fucking dungeon however many feet below the earth or the westeros earth whatever you want to call it yeah davos kind of does a little though but only just to troll well but also he has to be aware of those situations because these are people that could have him jailed for looking at them the wrong way i mean it's different when you have to case people just in case you're gonna be you know yeah for him it's self-preservation exactly so alistair didn't lose his son necessarily but he did lose sir imri our favorite person from the black water his brother's son imri was the guy that led them very blindly up the rush and did not even pay attention to the towers and davos that davos then thinks davos was not like to forget him this is like having a conversation with one of your corporate overlords who's never set foot in the warehouse in his entire life by

the way like it's just literally mindless you're getting nowhere davos asks if his son merrick who was the oar master on imri's ship was was found, but no survivors were found on Firi. Both Imri and Merrick were lost, says Alistair, in the war too. Wow, Davos is still, you know, he's still holding out that hope, right? He's still got that torch for if any of his sons were found. But here, you know, Alistair, there's a moment where Davos thinks that Alistair looks defeated. but here you know Alistair there's a moment where Davos thinks that Alistair looks defeated and he's in a way the way that Alistair's acting he's I think a broken man or starts leading us up into the idea of that and I think that perhaps a sort of version of why the north believes that

you need to behead deserters of the watch you know Ned's like they're dangerous they're willing to do anything in order to preserve themselves that's kind of alistair here right he does seem willing to do anything he's going to solid his king you know another thing here is that it almost feels like a test right like davos is saying what about my son merrick he was the oar master on emory's ship that's a pretty prestigious role right that's a higher role for someone of davos's birth son and he's very proud that his sons got as far up as they did and if you're the oar master on a ship it's likely you're going to be talking to the supervisors right on the floor and possibly even talking to the bigwigs once in a while so it also kind of feels like an asshole test of like you know my son merrick do you do you

know it also uh when you put it like that, reminds me a little of when Dunk, you know, the sort of way that we characterize who sucks and who doesn't in the Dunkin' Egg novellas during the Hedge Knight, where Dunk's like, did you know Sir Arlen of Pennytree? And people are like,

I don't give a shit about Sir Arlen of Pennytree. And Baylor Bricksphere's like, yes, I loved him. Well, he didn't say it like that, but he was like, I remembered him. Look, we all read the books. He said it like that. No, but it is.

It's like the, are there no true knights among you? Like, that's how Davos is. He's totally sitting here like, there's no true lords. None of it's fucking real. Just before, you know, next chapter when he's like, oh, well, I guess it's real now uh just before you know next chapter when he's like oh well i guess it's real now it's me i will be the real one uh but yeah again alistair seems pretty defeated and davos recalls again what melisandre said of embers and the ashes igniting great blazes and he's just like

see how alistair ended up here davos says says Stannis will never yield, and Alistair calls it folly. Stannis Baratheon will never sit the Iron Throne? Is it treason, to say the truth? Is it? A bitter truth, but no less true for that. His fleet is gone, save for the Lysenean. Salador San will flee at the first sight of a Lannister's sail. Most of the lords who supported Stannis have gone over to Joffrey or died.

I thought that Stannis' men loved him and loved following him. Listen, Eliana, all the king's horses and all the queen's men couldn't put Stannis back together again. You know, similar vibes to that is, Aster saying these bitter truths about Stannis, I think, quite has shades of Jorah and Daenerys admitting finally that Viserys is never going to take the Iron Throne, that he doesn't have it in him.

And I think it's interesting that Alistair talks about these truths that one needs to admit to themselves because it's the kind of truth that Davos isn't admitting yet about Stannis and the Iron Throne. And Stannis certainly isn't admitting it aloud to anyone. admitting yet about Stannis and the Iron Throne. And Stannis certainly isn't admitting it aloud to anyone.

I'm sure Stannis has his doubts and wonders if he can do it. But we don't have his POV. Though I don't know that Davos... I'm not sure if Davos truly believes that Stannis will never sit the Iron Throne, so much as he just hasn't admitted to himself that it doesn't matter if stannis does to him or not he has this fierce loyalty for stannis that goes beyond whether or not he's on the throne he truly believes in his heart that stannis is the king that's where he believes power resides does for him yeah i don't know uh what he'll have to do till he finally gets burnt with it right because

he got burnt with it already. How many more sons can you lose, man? You gotta go home to make some more first. Lord Celtigar was captured and bent the knee. Monfrid Valerian died with his ship. Sunglass was burnt. Lord Bar-Emmon is fat,

fifteen, and feeble. Those are now the lords of the Narrow Sea, with House Florence supplying its power against four of the kingdoms. Alistair tried to forge a peace, he says, to salvage it. That was why he was put in the dungeons. He meant to save lives. Salador had promised to get his terms to King's Landing, to Lord Tywin, who, sidebar, Alistair calls him a man of reason interesting davos continues

to ask what the terms are because alistair like refuses to tell him he gets distracted by the shit bucket the scent of it it's just a pale in the corner and he's used to the privies you know yeah and i actually kind of like there's a bit of wordplay here i think because davos is trying to goad uh alistair into divulging what he did this terrible crime it's kind of a secret kind of not but in this moment it says in this quote the pale said davos gesturing we have no privy here what terms and again davos is nudging for those terms to be disclosed because there is no privy here, right? There's no place to just... There's no cool place where you can go pee or poo.

But also, there's a wordplay with privy in terms of no sharing of secret knowledge, none of that sort of privilege, none of that privacy. There are just no secrets down here in the dungeons and both of them down here, they're both traitors and therefore equals and only the rats are really the ones interested in interacting with them. To be fair, the rats are the rats are better than some of the lords. Rats are better than people. Pretty much something I don't remember all the words from that song in prison.

Me either. Alistair Florent finally divulges it. Lord Stannis will give up his claim and retract what he said of Joffrey's bastardy in the condition he's accepted back into the King's Peace as Lord of Dragonstone and Storm's End. He vowed the same

for Brightwater Keep and the Florent Lands, and he sealed the deal with a nice bow, Shireen Wedding Tommen, and he thought these were excellent terms. He's like, even you can see that these are good terms, Davos. Damn. Really, really, read the room, Alistair.

Even you. Without even me. Davos is just like, okay. He's okay he's like yes said davos even me unless stanis should father a son such a marriage would mean that dragonstone and storm's end would one day pass to tommen which would doubtless please lord tywin meanwhile the lannisters would have shireen as hostage to make certain Stannis raised no new rebellions. you know i'd feel a lot sadder about all of this for alistair if a he wasn't a florent because fuck the florents uh and b if those weren't like giving away the entire everything like the kitchen and the sink like the bathroom too how about you throw in the fucking dining room throw in a two or three bedrooms while you're at it like what the hell man

that's everything that's literally everything no wonder you're down here he like left basically no pride there was no pride there and pride is important to Stannis if nothing else you know there's a lot of treason going around

these days in A Song of Ice and Fire right there's a lot of treason and Alistair Fl A Song of Ice and Fire. Right? There's a lot of treason. And Alistair Florence treason is not the only treason that we see in this series. I know you're surprised. Definitely not. Bear with me now, everyone. You know who I'm going to compare this to? You might be a little surprised.

It's another chapter that's pretty recent, actually. We talked about it in our lightning round. Oh. To Catelyn. pretty recent actually we talked about it in our lightning round oh to catalan uh alistair florence treason in comparison to both rickard carstark and i guess catalan uh next chapter we'll talk a lot more about stannis and his judgment of treason in comparison to some of the other kings spoiler i actually almost agree with stannis until you know he does eventually let alistair be burnt but uh stannis is not as harsh

on his treasonous motherfucker right away as Robb is on his, so we will talk about that with Quinn, but Davos III and IV have strong parallels to those Catelyn chapters occurring around. In both situations, Alistair and Rickard, and even Catelyn to an extent, spoke with the king's tongue and crossed a line while their king was still deliberating on what their choice or the right thing was to do. There's even a little Catelyn in this, in her giving Jaime away in hopes of freeing the girls, or even beforehand, before any of this went down, in forging relationships with the Freys in exchange for passage, right? Just like Shireen and Tommen. Alistair is reported as burnt as a sacrifice in a feast for

crows rob sentences both ricard's men and ricard to death we may pick more of these treason parallels up as we go along with catalan's plot and freeing jamie and davos freeing edrick interesting and i think that's that's a great point, and giving us that insight, because I think that at least Davos speaking with Alistair here gives him some good insight for when he has to talk to Stannis next chapter and be like, so this is what the people think. does what she does versus Alistair but it seems that Alistair as you said he he might have given Tywin maybe too sweet of a deal but he could have felt a little pushed up against the wall too we'll see we'll see how that plays out at towards ends of this chapter and I mean what did his grace say to Alistair regarding all this and Alististair remarks that, well, Stannis is always with the Red Woman, and he's just not in his right mind. He speaks of a stone dragon and warns of this.

He says, did we learn nothing from Arian Brightflame? From the nine mages? From the alchemists? Did we learn nothing from Summerhall? No good has ever come from these dreams of dragons. I told Axel as much. And it's just here, me. I'm like, interesting, thinking of the

impending second dance that we will one day get. The Doom of King's Landing. Or a lot of places, Tumble... TumbleTin? I mean, TumbleTin was never rebuilt but what will be the next tumble tin you know maybe the reach is gonna be a thing again we'll see we'll see

dorn probably i mean tayor talland says as much i saw them dancing everywhere they went people died just gonna sit my tea for a second hold on alistair says that Stannis gave him his seal, his leave to rule. The hand speaks with the king's voice, but even Davos knows, not in this, buddy, you went too far. Davos says Stannis won't yield when his claim is still just, and he won't unsay the words against Joffrey because he thinks they're true. He would never marry Shireen to Tommen because he's born of incest. Davos says his grace would sooner

see Shireen dead than wed to such. Oh. Interesting. Oop. He what? Interesting line, sorry. And then Davos says Stannis will choose to die a king. He what? Well, you know, that might be truer. Yep. Yep.

And then Davos says, Stannis will choose to die a king. Yeah, this is in response to Alistair saying, like, he has no other choice. And Davos is like, he does. This is his other choice. And it's, I think, a really fascinating exchange here at the end with Alistair. You know, he, of course, as as i said perceives that stanis has no choice because in that stanis might in fact choose to die a king would choose to see shireen die than wed as such in regards to tom and i think i mean stanis is really very intent in general on giving people shit choices that's like, like, what he does.

He's like, all of you free folk gotta convert so you can cross the wall, or you can just die out there where the others are. Or, for example, in two chapters or so, right, when he thinks that, you know, Lord Keltigar's men could have chosen to die instead of bend the knee to Joffrey. Or also, like also Melisandre who's under Stannis' employ who's really big on people making a choice on their side

in this war only two sides it's a story overall, people with difficult choices choosing has always been hard like Jon and Aemon and it's just interesting right because there's people like that but there's also a lot of people who are so committed to

their path that they see no choice like for example brienne at the end of the crossroads who as the new hound attacks uh sees that there is no chance and no choice in her eyes yes and i think the break before he bends is the most significant thing right and it's exemplified in what davos just said i think davos knows stannis and understands men like stannis probably a lot better than most people including you listener or me or eliana uh but i personally am going to choose to trust davos in this in this whole manner he seems like he has his head on maybe not straight right now but he has his head on he does he knows he's getting it on much straighter than it was before after after the blackwater, and we had the chapter with this exchange

about what it means for Stannis to die as a king and us with him. Is that what you desire, Onion Knight? No, but I am the king's man, and I will make no peace without his leave. Lord Alistair stared at him helplessly for a long moment and then began to weep well

that's it for this chapter it ends on this helpless note for Lord Alistair it's actually I think fairly a brief chapter there's a lot in it but it's I think a lot of things that are introducing us and transitioning us into the

next one, and it's written very well, and you can tell that George put a lot of thought into a lot of these Davos chapters, and the questions put forth in them. Yeah, it really makes you think. You know, it really makes you think mostly about Stannis, and

often. I do like the Davos, but I'm excited to get a reprieve, right? I'm excited for dance and I'm excited to see him go on some more adventure into some torrential, treacherous waters. So excited to kick some ass with Quinn next week on Davos 4. And we'll be back in the new year probably with the rest. Get ready. Yeah. And again, you know, we will be releasing in the new year probably with the rest. Get ready. Yeah. And again, you know, we will be releasing more of that holiday schedule and what you can all expect next week as well.

As always, thank you so much for listening. You can check us out on social media. We're over on Twitter at Girls Gone Canon or at Gmail, girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. If you want to send us a quick message about the episode or any thoughts you want to share, theories, just say, hey, send pictures of your dog or your cat or your animals, birds. We're down with whatever. Yeah.

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It's really fun come on over and you can also check out special patreon episodes right we release bonus episodes every month every other month is a song of ice and fire themed and last month's was on agan the third and his regency and this month december will be on his dark materials so look out for that at patreon.com slash girls gone canon yeah and you know speaking of this month's patreon episode being about the historic materials television series probably just uh i'm giving away secrets here but we are of course covering weekly the historic materials television show uh that is currently airing on bbc. And, you know, we are really excited.

It's another book series that we are reading through here on this podcast. So check those out if you're watching them. It's nice to see a book adaptation get some, you know, actual real love and respect from the people doing it. Yeah, I don't have any issues with my favorite adaptation of a favorite book series. It's pretty good on HBO and BBC. I don't have any issues with my favorite adaptation of a favorite book series. It's pretty good on HBO and BBC. I don't have any issues. Yeah, I've never been, you know, burned before. Never.

Never. Well, here's to not being burnt in the future. Fingers crossed that this HBO adaptation, BBC adaptation continues being the best because it is. It's being great. Tune in next week. We'll see you with Quinn as always I'm Chloe and I'm Eliana goodbye bye