Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 111 - ASOS Davos IV featuring Quinn Howard

Episode Date: December 11, 2020

Davos heads upwards and out of the dungeons, climbing the corporate ladder even higher only to find himself still standing on the precipice of hell: His king gazes into the fires and calls for the death of the "usurpers," while still carrying the ghosts of his brothers. Together with Quinn of Quinn's ideas, we talk magic, Melisandre, Davos, and Stannis.   Where to find Quinn:  Quinn's YouTube Channel: QUINN’S IDEAS Quinn's website: https://www.quinnhoward.net/ BUY YOUR COPY OF TADHYA: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/tadhya-graphic-novel#/ (Video) HP Lovecraft - True Horror of the Great Old Ones (Video) Where does Melisandre's Power Come From? (featuring guests, Girls Gone Canon)  --------   Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com   Intro by Anton Langhage; Narration background music:  Road to Hell by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/4297-road-to-hell License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/  

Hello and welcome to Heroes Gone Planet, A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 111, Davos 4 in a Storm of Swords, featuring our friend Quinn Howard of Quinn's Ideas and the author of Tadia. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. And yes, I'm so excited that Quinn is here to join us for our episode 111. Oh my god, 111. Hey, Quinn, thanks so much for coming on with us today. How are you? I'm doing pretty good. It's exciting to be here again. It's been a long time. How long has it been? Like two years? Yeah, it's been like two or three years. I don't know. I don't know how time works. Yeah, time is not a concept that I acknowledge. It's not real anymore. It's not, especially with the wait for stuff like Dune, as I know you and

I are very excited for. We're sitting here during quarantine waiting for Dune. It's next year, October. On our couches, though. I guess it's October. I don't know. I guess it's October. That's true. I feel like that might move it up.

Who knows? Who knows? The world is a weird place right now. Weird things are happening. Grayscale is on the loose. That's true. We can't tell for sure in our fires. Or we might just be misreading some of those signs. Yeah, all I see is snow, so I don't know about you guys.

Well, if you're not familiar with any of Quinn's work, you have to check out his YouTube channel. He covers a lot of stuff, anything from H.P. Lovecraft to Dune, lots of sci-fi. You're watching Star Wars right now. I'm watching Star Wars. This is the first time? For the first time, yeah, and it's really exciting. I've been surrounded by people that love Star Wars my whole life, and they've always been like, watch Star Wars, watch Star Wars. And I'm like, no, I like Dune.

But now I'm giving Star Wars a try, and it's really exciting, and it's fun to go back and watch all the movies, and I'm going to watch all the shows, too, and it's really exciting and it's fun to like go back and watch all the movies and i'm gonna watch all the shows too and it's gonna be fun and also like you mentioned a little bit like one of the more exciting things i'm doing right now for me is i'm covering more hp lovecraft and i did my halloween special call of cthulhu and i had a lot of fun with that and i got to dress up and you know play a bunch of cult members it was super exciting oh that's so fun i will definitely link that above i know that the true horror of the great old ones it was a really well produced video it was really fun i i love hp lovecraft and i always love whenever you dive into the deep ones well i guess the biggest thing and obviously i'm excited about you watching knockoff doom for the

first time that's always fun right the ancient jed Jedi text prepared you for it. But I'm really most excited about your graphic novel that you've been working on, Tadia. And what can you tell us the people about it? Tadia. So this is basically the most exciting thing that I've ever done in my life ever. I'm finally getting to tell this story about witches and persecution and horror that's kind of been in my mind for a really long time. And it's a graphic novel. It's going to be now 80 pages, which I like just kind of discovered. So that's exciting. It's beautifully drawn by Matthew Walden and colored by Jean-Francois Belliot.

I've got like two variant covers and it's still on sale right now, but it will only be for a couple more weeks before we finally have to cut it off and then we're moving into the production stage. It's almost completely finished being drawn and that's super exciting. But yeah, I'm just so incredibly excited. It's like a little bit of Lovecraft,

a little bit of George R.R. Martin in there, Neil Gaiman, and then a little bit of Wizard of Oz little bit of George R.R. Martin in there Neil Gaiman and then a little bit of Wizard of Oz and Alice in Wonderland all wrapped into one it's exciting yeah I'm super excited about it I've been looking forward to getting my copy and you know I will be patient

I'm used to waiting for the books that I anticipate and so it sounds like you were telling us behind the scenes a little bit inspired by The Sims. Absolutely. Because I love The Sims. I'm a Sims fanatic. I have a secret Sims YouTube channel that some people know about.

So I'm kind of a Sims fanatic. I love The Sims. And I play these witch storylines. And it's been really exciting ever since they came out with the magic pack. So I play little witch storylines and it's been really exciting ever since they came out with the magic pack so i like play like little witch storylines and tadia certain aspects of it were certainly born from my storytelling in the sense for sure you got to do your gardening in there absolutely it's fun little playground well we'll definitely be linking to your website, which is quinhoward.net, but also to the Indiegogo. If you search on Indiegogo for projects, you should find Tadia on there, and we'll leave some links in the description.

And hopefully you can still buy a quick copy of it just in time. Just in time. And that's T-A-D-H-Y-A for Tadia on Indiegogo. H-Y-A for Tadia on Indiegogo. Well, we're so excited to have you join us, Quinn. And we are going to talk really quickly about some housekeeping, our holiday schedule, and our Patreon episode. We'll be announcing that as well. So as we get near the holidays in December and quite a crazy month here in 2020, we have a little bit of a holiday schedule going on because look, we're going to be honest, we're putting out a lot of content right now and mom's got to take Christmas, you know, mom's got to have some Christmas time. So this will be our last Davos episode until 2021.

When we come back from the break, we will be announcing our next schedule for davos coming out and we'll get right back to it with the rest of his story in a storm of swords moving on to a dance with dragons and then of course to a brand new shiny pov that you will find out about soon enough in the meantime you will hear our weekly review episodes of his dark materials the tv series airing on bbc hbo you can check those out mostly on Mondays. We'll have a special guest for the finale, so stay tuned for that. We'll be announcing it soon. And, Eliana, why don't you tell them about our Patreon episode this month for patrons in the Stranger tier and above?

Yeah, so we are closing off the year in style over on Patreon. As you all know know we have episodes for our five dollar and up patrons and alternate between a song of ice and fire episodes and his dark materials episodes and this month is a historic materials episode and this time we're going to do an episode that is focused on the show and we are going to cover the music of his dark materials as you all know we love opening credits, but there's a lot of other amazing music, and we are going to be joined by Matt and Holly from The Dust

Podcast. Yay! Yeah, and they are experts on this, so I'm super excited to go through this with them, and we'll give you all a date on that, of course. Yes, to be announced for that. And we have one more fun Patreon activity where we are going to be announced for that. And we have one more

fun Patreon activity where we are going to be doing our Discord brunch and slash happy hour in which we are going to be doing, you know, we've decided we really liked the format last time of doing this sort of PowerPoint potluck, and this time we are going

to be inviting people to do that again, and this time around the theme of be inviting people to do uh that again and this time around the theme of the gift whatever people think the gift is you know maybe you think it's tyrian maybe you think it's mercy maybe you think it's that area very close to the wall right or anything else and this is open to our patrons who are in the thunder tier and above ten dollars and up patrons get access to the discord yeah and if you're not able to make it for brunch on the 19th on that Saturday, it'll be from 3 to 5 p.m. Eastern Time. If you're not able to make it, no sweat, but we would still love to have you as part of the server.

So feel free to come on over and hang out. We talk a lot about food and pets, lots of animal photos happening there. And I guess some stuff like A Song of Ice and Fire and His Dark Materials too, but the important stuff. Yes. So that's it for housekeeping. Yeah. And now we can get ready to jump into the episode with Quinn. Quinn, this is how it works here. We do a lightning round. It's a quick blip. Eliana loves them. They really surprise her. She does not read them on purpose because sometimes I give her the worst things to say and she goes, what the fuck, Chloe, halfway through. So keep that in mind. You are brave for reading them. This lightning round is a quick summary. We're going to skip

Arya, Sansa, and Sam. We'll come back to them another time. We're going to keep it brief and start off with Jon III and a Storm of Swords. Jon must part from Ghost to prove himself to the Free Folk and prove himself to Ygritte. Daenerys III. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back, and to touch the light, you must pass beneath the shadow. Jon IV. The expedition fails to find the Horn of Jormun. Jaime IV. Lost in his past, Jaime tries to save Brienne as best he can. They arrive at Harrenhal where they're presented to Bruce Bolton. Tyrion IV.

Tyrion makes arrangements for Simeon Silvertongue. Tywin commands Tyrion to serve his family legacy. Tyrion plays politics with the Night's Watch. Catelyn IV. Hoster Tully passes away. Between Duskendale and Winterfell's burning, King Robb's campaign loses a whole lot of hope in one night. That brings us into the overview of Davos IV in A Storm of Swords. Davos climbs the molten steps of Dragonstone until he reaches a lordship and is promoted with a handjob.

And I am so sorry because I am four. Axel Florent and four guardsmen come down to the dungeons and alistair is like celeste must have sent for me to be freed stan is sent for me but no they're not here for alistair florent they're here for davos davos asks axel if he means to burn him but all he says is that he was sent for through alistair we start setting the stage for what you know family owes one another and blood and the prospect of family turning against one another so fiercely because he's wondering here like will salise actually let me like rot here will she actually kill me but turns out uh it's his brother who's gonna end up doing it more

or less and this begins raising the questions that davos is afraid to bring to mind later as throughout this chapter as he wonders why stannis won't say Edric's name. I feel like there's a statement there that's being made about fanaticism. Like, you'll turn your back on your family. Like, if you truly believe in the power of this thing or in this god, you're willing to do horrible, horrible things. And I think that's the key theme or one of the key things surrounding Stannis's entire arc and also melisandre yeah absolutely especially when you look at axel here right because in the last chapter even melisandre who is so misunderstood as we have discussed in depth before with you but melisandre here even

had left that torch for davos and axel took the torch away he told the jailer take it away leave leave him in the darkness and bring Davos and we have Alistair just begging for mercy and he begs for mercy from the gods not not from god from the gods it reminds me of almost like Scientology like if you have like someone that escapes the cult their families will like turn their backs on them and be like really mean they do this thing where they're like kind of like excommunicate them and like so it reminds me so much of this it's like you know you deserve even worse uh because i'm taking the torch it's very cruel yeah especially for someone faithful what that says for them right because they believe in just light of the world and that shadows, you know, created from it are one thing, but the darkness, the Lord of Darkness is coming for you.

I shall leave you to the great other. Yes. Gods, there is only one R'hllor and the other. Sir Axel gestured sharply and one of his guardsmen pulled the torch from its sconce and led the way to the stair. gestured sharply, and one of his guardsmen pulled the torch from its sconce and led the way to the stair. So now Davos is now a little worried, right? He asks if he's being taken to Melisandre, but turns out it's actually Stannis who's summoning him, and Davos absently touches the space where his finger bones would be, but those are now gone. He thinks that his fingers are still long enough to strangle Melisandre's slender throat. Real wholesome, real wholesome. And I think it's an interesting gesture for Davos to reach up and find those finger bones again. And that sets the stage for a lot of the other things that are going to come up in this chapter in regards to Stannis' justice and the price of duty. It's not just his fingers and his luck, but his sons who were burned.

Already getting slightly off the topic, but not really. I think it's super interesting that right as he reaches for his finger bones he thinks about melisandre because if you remember that melisandre chapter in dance she thinks to herself the things that she could use to glamour and one of the specific things that she says just randomly is a bag of finger bones and i think why does she say that you know what i mean we're being shown specifically that she has the power to glamour people using something that belongs to them and bones and blood are the most powerful and then we have davos who's mysteriously lost his bag of

finger bones after the green inferno my crackpot theory is that millisandra has those finger bones and that someone else might be walking around as Davos or something like that. But anyway. I could see where it could serve, you know what I mean? Especially in the camp because the thing is he is gone right now. He's not at camp in modern Aeswath where

we are at the most recent timeline. He's gone trying to find Rickon. And so Davos, what if and I don't know if i believe it'll happen right because george is supposed to get it done in the next two books we all know our beliefs on that but i don't know if we'll have time for it to happen but maybe stannis needs the push and maybe it's davos coming back but not actually him we've seen her do it with the lord of bones you could be honest i mean i feel like george r martin is super subtle so i always like

to pay attention when he like points to something over and over again i think finger bones melisandre and then melisandre thinks finger bones and i'm like hmm is there something there maybe not i know that um this is also slightly off topic but some people have said that they think it's a red herring and that they think it's about the dead man's boots and then mario will use it in regards to darian yeah the singer but i don't know george does love his red herrings he does he does so i think it could be any of those things and yeah the finger bones coming up again it seems like such a such a very unique object to not come back yeah and the fact that she references that directly and just instead of just saying or just random bones it's like whoa why'd you say that where

are those finger bones is the question yeah finger bones are not random interestingly enough there's other language here that's surprising to me because in the last chapter he talked about her slender fingers like he was paying attention to her fingers being slender in here he thinks about strangling her slender throat which i was like is every i mean i guess everything about her is slender right like she's very slim is her whole thing but it was just interesting to me that last chapter it was the fingers today it's the throat he's kind of alternating he's obsessed a little bit a little they climb upwards into dragon stone as they take davos up the stone is becoming cooler as they rise if you remember it was warmer in the last chapter and finally he comes to the surface but he's still not finding sunlight and last chapter we

kind of mentioned how davos 3 had a little bit of the underworld vibes, right? But a little odd. This climbing for Davos is both figurative and literal. After the hellfire of Blackwater, he found himself below the ground in the underworld in this warm, stony prison, recovering to be rebirthed. We have a lot of those Hades-Stanis vibes with infertility, right? Unable to bear an heir, and Robert kind of as Zeus as this thunderous, lightning, vengeance-filled god. But the Persephone parallel doesn't really work perfectly. We'll talk about it in a bit, but her daughter Melano does remind me a little bit of Melisandre. But back to Davos, he's climbing upwards in this chapter, as I said, both literally and figuratively to a new station. There's something in the way that below the ground, without responsibility, it was a warm place that nurtured Davos, a place that

healed him. But as he's leaving the underworld and going upstairs to accept this responsibility from Stannis, it's colder. He's coming to this cold world that isn't his nurturing without beautiful, gorgeous meals being brought to him and the warm stone healing his cough shouldn't being reborn as a great lord feel much warmer than this he was getting pretty good food i mean what's wrong here why does it feel so bad i don't know i don't know because stannis isn't the right one stannis is the blue-eyed king that casts no shadow for a reason no fruits will bear from his efforts. He will die and be forgotten.

That's the thing about Stannis. That's the tragedy of Stannis. And so Davos is feeling cold because he's marching towards nothing, essentially. That's what I think. That's the way I see that. No, absolutely. That's probably valid and the only correct way to look at the story. But, you know, it is what it is.

He's the one who closes his own line, too, right? There's no fruits because he's the one who he literally burns them all. He refuses to plant trees. Wow. Oh, he's burning the trees. That's the thing. So Melisandre has to hit a breaking point where she realizes that the way she sees the world isn't fully accurate. Stannis has never been able to adapt to anything.

You know, he's so rigid. And it's like, it's a perfect one of the lines from the show. When Dany says, what happens to things that don't break? Stannis, they snap. Exactly. He's not willing to bend. You know, it's like what rinley says and no one wants you for their king you're too rigid and you're too like set in your ways and you can't really see things as they really are because you're too blocked into your own vision of things

and that's the trap that melisandre has to free yourself from to free yourself from the trap of her own vision i mean sorry it'll be interesting for melisandre in that like i you know we don't really know how old she is so for her to free herself i mean that's not just like stannis being what 30 something right and then freeing himself from that vision that's like someone really really interrogating potentially centuries of of this belief system that they've been in. Absolutely. Wow, talk about an age gap, right?

No, I'm just kidding. Sorry, I just thought it would bring the tension. Oh my god. Do you think Melisandre is exploiting Stan? Actually, yeah, but we won't get into that. She doesn't know better. She thinks it is. Her fires say so and what she sees

she needs some contacts girl she's convinced i've always she's so convinced that i always wonder like did someone like tell her that stannis was the one why is she so convinced to the point where she's seeing the truth and not seeing it it's interesting various heard voices right yeah something speaks from the flames and we know that power can be transferred because she sees Bloodraven. I know I'm skipping several chapters ahead. But she sees Bloodraven and Bran. And it almost messes up her glamour. And she feels it.

And she shivers. And she starts bleeding that black blood that's smoking almost as though her power was faltering. And he looks up and she says he sees me she felt him see her so if he can affect her through the flame then i imagine that yeah other players can as well there comes another yeah well davos's legs are aching as he is brought to the stone drum where he is really living the scent of salt water suddenly filling his nostrils and wind in his lungs and he prays for strength from them the gods he believes in while the queen's men below dance and sing at their night fires axel pauses mid-bridge motioning his men to leave them to

privacy and he basically calls davos a traitor tells him if it was my way, you'd be burnt. So would Alistair. Davos is like, I would never betray King Stannis. Okay. But Alistair says he's seen it in his flames. Or sorry, Axel says that he's seen it in his flames. Stannis will sit the throne and I will become his hand. Not wrong. I mean, I'm just saying maybe Axel knows what he's going on here.

And Davos, in order to make this prophecy come true, says Axel, will go to Stannis and tell him as much. And the literal thought that Davos has, which I appreciate so much, is, will I? Davos said nothing. Will he though? Okay, I just want to say, screw you, George R. R. Martin, for all these A names. Right. I know. Why are you doing this to us?

He's just such a monster. It's like, I do sometimes confuse the Alistair and Axel. I'm like, wait, hold on. Which one's which? And Alistair's the hot one. I'm trying to remember Axel. I'm like, Axel's an asshole. Yeah.

Maybe if I do it like that, it'll stick. I love the way George plays with prophecy. An asshole. Yeah. Maybe if I do it like that, it'll stick. But... I love the way George plays with prophecy here. Yes. Like, it's so good. You will betray Stannis. I mean, I just love it. I love it.

Do you think that Axel can really see anything in the flames? I don't know. See, that's always the thing with George R.R. Martin. How much of it is like maybe to some extent i mean i don't know or maybe he's just taunting davos i don't know if i honestly just say i don't know i think it's one of those funny both things i see that character as a character that more so than anything just kind of like wants power. Cause Melisandre talks about seeing in the flames as an art and it takes practice.

I would assume that it's not like how it is in the fricking show where just like anybody can just look in the flame and just see a bunch of stuff. I, it takes skill to interpret what you're seeing. It's like any art. It's like really, it's like tarot or like tossing stones. It takes skill to,

to do divination. It takes practice to do accurate divination it takes practice to do accurate divination so maybe he's full of shit or maybe he just got like some latent ability and it's i don't know maybe he did see something i don't know anyone can see things it's interpreting like you said so absolutely i think he could totally see stuff and i think i mean as we've read a storm of swords a feast for crows a dance with dragons even cersei's right once in a i think i mean as we've read a storm of swords a feast for crows a dance with dragons even cersei's right once in a while so i mean what if this is just really ironically super right like what he was like you will betray stanis and he's not i'm gonna be his i'm gonna be his hand

he's king i'm gonna be his hand he is and i mean he is right and part of this. Yeah. Davos is away from him. Yeah. That is something that I wonder, you know, if it's like something that he's actually seeing because he wants to see it and is using it for his power. Because Axel absolutely seems like that. We see that in the later dance chapters that he's using religion, you know, as you were saying, fanaticism. But he's using it for his own purposes and power. you know as you're saying fanaticism but he's using it for his own purposes and power absolutely which is uh quite contrasted to an extent with alistair who's like what can i do so like everyone doesn't fucking die um even though he doesn't make like the right call obviously but uh that

and i'm just like or can because i wonder like if axel can see into the flames and that's like a sort of thing that's like just because you're a shitbag doesn't mean that you don't get some, like, magical power thing, too. You're wrong. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's dark wizards. Exactly. But Axel's, like, I don't know, not a wizard, just... He's just an asshole.

He's annoying. Yes. Number one asshole. But, yeah. It's annoying. Yes. Number one asshole. But yeah, so while Davos is out, part of that asshole-ness is Axel drummed up support from Selyse and also from Salador. And he's like, you know, Davos, if you're loyal and devoted, you will join your voice to ours. And if he does so, he's like, Davos, I'm going to give you a brand new ship. That's what everyone wants, a company car ship. He's like, Davos, I'm going to give you a brand new ship.

That's what everyone wants, a company car ship. And Davos thinks, like, I think that this guy would rather give me to the pyre than give me a brand new ship. I think you're right, Davos. Maybe I'll do this thing. This is one thing for him. And there's this line here when Axel is describing how Stannis is right now that kind of reminds me of something that chloe called out in the last chapter about the language of worms and melisandre had asked davos if his heart was full of worms and axel described stannis as the defeat gnaws inside him a black worm in his soul which is interesting because chloe you were talking about robert as the king of worms yes that line about him what happens you know what happens when worms take over your soul

i don't know even robert succumbed i'm just saying i'm not saying but i'm saying black worm in his soul you know that just gives me symbols of corruption and decay and something that is dying you know all these stannis symbols it's just like he's going in the wrong direction he really is even if you think about black water how he just led all those people to their deaths anyone that follows stanis marches to their death everyone's in the snow just dying that's literally what's happening right now absolutely everyone could just put on some fucking snowshoes and like maybe they'd be okay but nope nope nope you know another part of it that feels really prominent now and maybe this is especially after fire and blood but it's the preacher in clash of kings that

is preaching about how joffrey is the spawn of evil and abomination and also the preacher in fire and blood right preaching about the targaryens being abominations and incest being abominations and uh it's funny because he put that call out about all the incest in king's landing but he still has that worm in his own soul you know it's not just incest it's not yeah this does turn to threats quickly right because if davos betrays axel floren axel may not be able to burn him but he'll definitely make sure that Davos has a quick fall you know a nice long trip if you will and the garrison is Axel's he's been castling here for a very long time he shoves Davos against the bridge forcing

his face out in the yard and is like do you hear me and Davos thinks can you dare name me a traitor eventually they reach the chamber of the painted table where Stannis is standing next to the carved map of Westeros an iron brazier lit glowing next to the king he wears a gray tunic a dark red mantle and a black leather belt sword and dagger that hangs at his side and his crown is red gold with flame-shaped points. It's atop his head, but he seems about a decade older than he was, right, when he was at Blackwater Bay right before he started the entire battle. He seems, like, think, like, Obama and George W. Bush after office. They looked really effing old.

Like, they looked old, but they looked old, you know, like. Yeah. That's not just stress. That is the toll of what melisandre is doing to him see here's the thing about melisandre is that she can do magic and she she has these skills but i don't know if she really fully understands what she's doing all the time you know it we we know that she's learned shadowbinding and ease and she's she's done all this stuff but i also especially from that dance of dragons chapter i get the sense that she's learned shadowbinding and she's done all this stuff.

But I also, especially from that Dance with Dragons chapter, I get the sense that she's just kind of like faking it most of the time. She's like, I kind of know what's up, but then I kind of don't. And I'm putting on an image as I'm more skilled than I really, really say I am. So here we have Melisandre taking the part of Stannis' soul to conjure a shadow that's going out and doing her bidding and taking lives. I can only imagine that that has a tremendous price. This is Stannis' shadow that she's conjuring and sending out into the night. So George R.R. Martin is usually very, he's always been very, very clear that magic is costly. So when I see Stannis looking like this withered aged king that's what i see i see someone that's being drained and i think of that scene from the show where she looks at him

and she says your fire is burned low my king and who has drained them oh but yeah there we go your fire's burned yeah that's just my little thing no that's a great point especially when you think about i mean when lady stoneheart comes back in full swing what happens death pays for life absolutely he looks like death like the bones move beneath his skin like spears fighting to cut free are the exact words about it and he's lost about 30 pounds his beard is graying yeah not great not great we can just like fuck ourselves to losing weight but um but yeah no i think it's absolutely it's it's what you're saying and what quinn's saying you

know melisandre seems to be taking on a sort of like channeling this idea of a succubus right in terms of uh what's happening to stannis. That is certainly the archetype. Yeah, and that's what Davos is seeing. We've raised questions about this in terms of Stannis' fires burning low. Are there men whose fires burn hotter? They have more to give in terms of giving shadows, and now the

mechanics of the male orgasm and circumstances around creating a shadow baby are a subject of study in our Discord. A deep study. and circumstances around creating a shadow baby are a subject of study uh in our in our discord so a deep study a really deep study if you know what i mean well it's like that it's like that old old pagan idea you know the point of orgasm is like when you're closest to god so that's why women are holy and the womb is holy because that's where god is so you have like the Christian interpretation, which like demonizes the woman and like she is the fall of everything. So it's like, yeah, that's interesting.

Yeah. The womb is magic is what I'm saying. Oh, it's something. They are doing that absolutely here. And that's part of why Davos is so afraid of Melisandre. And that hangs throughout this whole chapter. Stannis, though, he does smile faintly when Davos appears

saying that the sea has returned his night of fish and onions. He commands Davos to rise from his knee and says that he was in need of good counsel and he asks Davos the fucking trick questions the moment he comes in. He's like, what is the penalty for treason? Davos is like, shit. Really? It's this questions the moment he comes in he's like what is the penalty for treason that was like shit

really it's this kind of day are you not a traitor stanis right you killed your brother but whatever whatever though yeah he's kind of you know growing up i remember my mom used to tell me that you know my dad had selective hearing and i'm like it now. Stannis has some selective hearing and selective thinking. And the exact passage is actually really interesting, what Davos thinks. The word hung in the air. A frightful word, thought Davos. Was he being asked to condemn his cellmate? Or himself, perchance?

Kings know the penalty for treason better than any man. Right? They have it memorized! They literally make the rules. And this is kind of like you right? They have it memorized. They literally make the rules. And this is kind of like you, Chloe, you know, being like, I don't make the rules. And I'm like, but you do. What? You do.

That's the thing about Sted is he's like all about the rules. And then he's like, I'm king, but then rules. I'm like, what do you mean? You're king. That's the point, dude. Yeah, there's a lot of that because Davos here is like treason huh interesting and Stannis is like yes I'll define it for you and he says it's when you deny your king and seek to steal his rightful throne so Davos is like oh

yeah that one that's death you're talking about Alistair what he did and Stannis goes through this huge spiel and it's a little revisionist in its history. I'm just saying that this one was like a New York Post or maybe like Huffington, you know, like, I don't know. You could get it from some places. He's like, I'm not a cruel man. It's not my decree. Even before Aegon the Conqueror's Day.

And then he lists all these people that have committed treason, like Daemon Blackfyre, the Brothers Toyne, Vulture King, Grand Maester Harith, even Rhaenyra. And he says, and I quote, She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown. Interesting, because you just described the secession that it should have been instead of the Dance of Dragons. But I digress. The most hysterical part about all of that is, like, Rhaenyra's story, as we all know, closely mirrors Stannis' more than Aegon too. I know.

Straight down to his green brother. He's refusing to look at his own face. In this very chapter, he's like, well, you know, we have to follow this super old tradition. But also, don't worry davos i can make new lords which one is it homie pick one you know what i mean fucking pick one and like this is our first mention of damon blackfire and yes damon blackfire was a usurper i get it but and maybe this is my maturity and a swath at this point of my life but i'm like you know he might not have done an awful job

you know here's the dumb thing about stanis he thinks he's not a usurper because he feels like he has a right to the throne but every usurper feels like they have a right to the throne like what are you doing right now you're literally trying to usurp the throne committing treason against the crown that's different the red lady tells me i'm azor high so i'm different i'm special i'm the princess from so marsha marsha marsha oh the stand flake so yeah like thousands thousands gotta die you know burning up horrible deaths because i want to be king exactly exactly that's that's a great point he's like they're usurpers i'm not not me uh yeah and i just like i'm not convinced that you know for all his studying i'm like did stannis really pay attention

everyone that talks about how smart he is but i'm like i don't think he paid attention in his history lessons i've never gotten the stannis love ever i'm sorry if there's people out there that just really like stannis i've always just kind of thought this guy's kind of an idiot asshole that should kind of lighten up a little bit. I agree. Because he's like, as we said, you know, he doesn't seem to understand how he's maybe a bit more like Rhaenyra than Aegon II in this whole thing. And also, I'm just like, does he know that there was more than one vulture king he acts like oh yes the vulture king i'm like there were like fucking five of them and also the brother's toy and like the whole point i think is kind of like i don't know they weren't really

trying to steal like agan the fourth's throne they were trying to get revenge for his brother who was killed for sleeping with agan's mistress, not even his wife. Which is his fault? Yeah. He doesn't know history. I think he's just smart and rigid. He has certain tactical skills. People think, oh, that means he's really, really intelligent. But no, he's just kind of stoic and rigid.

He's not smart. I feel like Tywin Lannister is smart. He's also just bending it to his will. He's kind of like, yeah, this happened, which means I should be king. You know, like, it doesn't really actually matter what the moral of the real story was for Rhaenyra, which was, war is bad and the small folk are suffering and you have a

feudal contract to uphold that you have to help people because you get all the fucking riches of this country and you provide a feudal contract to uphold that you have to help people because you get all the fucking riches of this country and you provide all the innovation, all the production, you know, like you're the person in charge of this place and your bottom line is looking shitty right now and you don't care.

And like, that was the point. While the dragons dance burnt the land, like what about the people that died that had no part of it? Absolutely. That's why Stannis isn't Azor Ahai. Like, he's on Dragonstone, and it sucks. Like, I mean, and then he's like, everyone's dying, and it sucks.

He does not care one bit about the small folk at all. Yeah, he really doesn't. I mean, Dany goes and lays her hand on the sick and dying and washes them. Jon Snow lets the wildlings through the wall. What has Stannis done for the people? It's all about him. It's all about him and his own ego and his legacy. It's me, me, me, me, me.

And that is not a hero. Yeah. He cares for one single small folk. Just one. Yeah. And that's because he he totally like fluffs up sanis's ego and i mean he he's trying to push that narrative here right now he's like you know it's established law not cruelty i would i would never and davos is like shit i really pity alistair my cellmate right now.

And he's like, but I'm pretty, pretty glad that it is not me right now. And he's like, I should probably shut up. But he speaks up anyway in defense of Alistair, saying that Alistair is a good man and that Florence didn't mean to commit treason. And Stannis tells him, well, you know what? Shireen's my only child. And he tried to sell my rights for a bowl of peas porridge. The king's voice was thick with anger. My brother had a gift for inspiring loyalty, even in his foes.

At Summerhall, he won three battles in a single day, and brought lords Grandesun and Carafen back to Storm's Inn as prisoners. He hung their banners in a hall as trophies. Carafen's white fawns were spotted with blood, and Grandison's sleeping lion was torn near in two, yet they would sit beneath those banners of a night, drinking and feasting with Robert. He even took them hunting. These men meant to deliver you as Ares to be burned. I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. You should not be putting axes in their hands, Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Carafan into the dungeon, but he turned them into friends. Lord Carafin died at

Ashford Castle, cut down by Randall Tarly whilst fighting for Robert. Lord Grandison was wounded on the trident and died of it a year after. My brother made them love him, but it would seem that I inspire only betrayal, even in mine own blood and kin, brother, grandfather, cousins, good uncle. He's so bitter. He's so mad. Little petty too, right? I know. Never forget to slight real or imagined.

That's true. Wait, that's Cersei shit. Let it go. I know. And, you know, he looks these men just thinking like treason. They've all committed treason against my brother. And Eliana, I just want to outline, these are the men that we've been mentioning that you and I always go about it. And I'm like, you don't remember them. And you're like, what guys? So I feel like if we didn't contribute to the bit today, it would be doing a dishonor. But yes, those are the guys that Robert brought up off their knees instead of, you know, like burning them alive. It's done in the name of the Lord of the Light. And let's talk about treason. This word is mentioned 180 times in the main five books in Dunkin' Egg and The World of Ice and Fire.

Donate to a search of Ice and Fire's PayPal. Maybe fire and blood will go up. Right. That would be pleasing for me. It would make my life so easy but it's also mentioned 39 times in fire and blood because spoiler alert fire and blood if you haven't read it has a lot of treason but by the time we lead up to this in a storm of swords we have such a great amount of treason going on barring cersei which she thinks everything is treason right she? She's like, give me more wine.

Ma'am, you're cut off. Treason. Treason. It's a little much, girl, you know. But a game of thrones leading up to where we are now. Ned's treason against Joffrey's claim to the throne. And then we have Barristan Selmy's display of treason in the throne room. That's what it's called when we get to Jon VIII.

In a clash of kings, Renly's treason and usurping Stannis, which Stannis does say he paid for his treason with his life. And we have Penrose's treason and not yielding the boy or the castle. Stannis accuses the Lannisters of incest and treason. I'll give him that one. And Tyrion arrests Pycelle for treason against the small council's plans in the hand of the king's plans. So those are the most prominent treasons we have leading up to a storm of swords. And okay, maybe like two of those are treason, right? Most of the people executed for treason or like punished for treason in the story up to this point were mostly wrongfully executed. So it really tickles me that Stannis is is like men who commit treason must pay the lawful

price and i have to uphold the price because those laws are made by men who arbitrarily pay attention to them for their own purposes and their own reasons and their own ambitions because the treasonous men are threats to revealing that the men trying to become lords suck and also stannis you are committing treason right now yeah i just i just gotta remind you that there is no dna test in westeros i'm sorry stannis stannis like has extreme like also middle child syndrome where he just like everyone in the family hates me and the black sheep i mean he kind of is because i bet he like sucks to be around too it's like oh my god stannis again it's a reinforcing cycle where he's like everyone hates me and it's like well if you keep complaining

about everyone hating you we're gonna get annoyed I know I mean you can't have saved your life and you chopped his fingers off I mean you're lucky that you have this guy he's an annoying little fuck holy shit hall monitor vibes he's like extreme hall monitor. Oh my god. Imagine a 21-year-old comes up to you right now and is like, I'm going to chop your fingers off. Thanks for the onions. They did kind of make it a hall monitor-esque, right? In School of Thrones, remember that? Yes.

It's like, why did I save you? If I was Talos, I'd be like, I should have just kept my onions and just stayed. Just rode on, you know? I would have still had all my fingers, you know? It is weird that he's like, yes, the cutting off of my fingers is what inspires loyalty in me. And, you know, Stannis just doesn't get what inspires loyalty in other people, right? Like, the entire chapter is kind of dancing around this idea a couple of times of what is it that makes people lay down their own lives and safety for others and it's not like duty but that's not inspiring it's not people being like i fucking deserve it because and then he just leaves a blank because like my brother died and therefore i deserve it and everyone's like uh and like the

reason people fought for robert is they believed in him he was someone that they actually got to know and understand as a person. He was someone to fight for. Or you could go the Tywin Lannister route and inspire fear in others. But either way, there's an emotional sort of stimulus that causes it. And Stannis inspires neither

in the people who fight for him. Granted, he does inspire fear for some on the other side. But it's not just that Robert had this incredible gift, I think. It's that he was really able to show who he was as a person to these people. And they could see something symbolized in his cause, right? He was threatened by Ares directly, who was like, I want that man's head. And they themselves were being oppressed by Ares's regime, right? And so they're all in the

same idea together fighting for the same vision of a more merciful future versus aries's terrifying one of like yes i think justice is um fire is my champion and everyone is treason yeah because what is stannis fighting for right i mean he he's causing the problems you know i mean i'm sure the small folk would like much rather just be like hey can you guys like stop fighting and like burning our villages and can you guys just like chill like you know some bread some health care he's not fighting to change the world to make it a better place because the because the i mean sure the leaders are awful but i mean they're not any more awful than they've been for like, as far as the small folk are concerned.

I mean, the bad thing that's been happening recently is the freaking wars. It's like, can everyone please chill? Stop fighting. Yeah, and it's obvious he's not very charismatic, right? We know this, obviously. Stannis is not very charismatic in that regard. He has his moments right like there is a moment in this chapter we'll talk about that i think is a very i don't want to say positive but it's above neutral of a moment for stannis for me it's like a moment where i'm like wow stannis you almost aren't awful here and we see that like having a little vulnerability with your people goes a very long way daenerys and her court are close right

like she regards them very closely ned yes ned feasts a different man all the time before he joined this. So, of course, people wanted to aid Robert's cause. Of course, they wanted to say, oh, yes, that gallant, nice young boy, Ned with the plain face, you know, he's a good boy. Of course. They were more than just, you know, just soldiers or servants to Robert and to the nearest.

These are humans, you know, she, she didn't see slaves. She saw people, enslaved people. So it's like, I don't know. Stannis just, I don't know. Stannis doesn't see anyone, doesn't see anything. He has no vision. Yeah. Daenerys turns around her, her entire campaign to be like, well, we're going to do this now.

For you. We're going to do this now. For you. We're going to free these people. Yeah. They do it for her. They're fighting for her. Like, Stannis' people are not fighting for him. No. They're fighting because they know where the spoils will be at the end of the war, whether they lose or win.

They'll find them. They'll change sides. Broken man. I mean, that's the whole point of the whole thing. The whole thing the whole the whole thing well we have lord axel florent dancing around stannis during this being like well give me the chance to lead boss and i'll be the best hand of the king in the universe but stannis shrugs him off and he's like i'm talking to davos and he tells him the losses he's like loyal men waste

their days drinking gambling licking their wounds. And Axel is, of course, over Stannis' shoulder saying, victory will cure their problem, King Stannis. And the king, his mouth twists. He's like, Axel, why don't you tell your plan to Davos? Tell the whole class what you plan to do. So Axel proposes

to use Salador's fleet and put the men who are still alive from the Blackwater, probably exhausted, out there to punish Lord Keltigar for his defection. Put his castle and his people to the torch, burn it down, and then the Lysene pirates will take loot from the castle because, of course, Claw Isle has beautiful famed loot from across the narrow seas. Cracking horn, baby. Right.

Euron's got that cracking horn. He's going to get it. I don't know. That's another one of my crack pottery theories because he said it that way. Yes. I don't think it's that crack pot. Cracking horn, baby. I think it's real.

I think it's real. Yeah. I do. I want it. Imagine the calamari also from that. Oh, delicious. Enorm could feed that could feed a lot of small folk yeah exactly slayed you won't be the hero he brought everyone cracking what's cracking that's what that's how they survive the winter

they'll just dry out the cracking meat that's That's actually a good idea. That's how they could feed Westeros. They could feed me. Oh my god. This is how we're gonna do it. Man, what if people did do that? That would be amazing. But instead, you know, we're going with the Axel and the Florence strategy, right? Where they're like,

yeah, we're gonna go punish small folk for no fucking reason, which is what delayed their assault on the Blackwater in the first place, because they were like, yeah, let's just harass the fisher folk for no fucking reason which is what delayed their assault on the black water in the first place because they were like yeah let's just harass the fisher folk for no fucking reason and also when they're in the north and trying to get to winterfell they're like let's just stop and burn people that sounds fun so ridiculous and i mean the saddest part about it is that the very beginning of the chapter dav Davos is like, I hope Salador didn't sell me out. But this is like, this is a little worse than selling Davos out. Not only did he not sell Davos out, but money pays for status. We know Salador is pissed because he has no money. He spent all his money on this stupid war where he's lost shit and gotten nothing. And he's not a native to Westeros, and that's inhibited him in many ways he's looked at as a vessel right his vessel his ships so of course he's going to try to find work to get the money back for what he's lost but working with Axel to get vengeance against some old man that's

a pretty shitty betrayal not just for Davos but for me I'm betrayed right like I'm like Salador man I thought we were cool i always knew what salad or was it's all about that money it's all about his money people are like that some people are like that sure i always knew he was a it was a cool color for do but i always knew at the end he'd be like you know where's my money there's something out there like water thinner than water yeah gold is thicker than water though there's that and thicker than blood Stannis tells Davos to speak truly then

of what he thinks about Axel's fantastic plan and Davos hesitates thinking of Sir Axel's threats and promises and then he decides you know what I'm going to tell the truth this plan is shit he calls it cowardice and Axel begins threats and promises and then he decides, you know what, I'm going to tell the truth. This plane is shit. He calls it cowardice. And Axel begins to shout at Davos and Stannis

silences him and he's like, Davos, go on. Davos tells him, well, there are no Lannisters on Claw Isle and Lord Celtigar is an old done man and he wants to end his days in the comforts of his castle as do all of us. And Lord Celtigar came when Stannis called when

you asked for his ships and swords and he stood with Stannis at Storm's End and then sailed on the Blackwater and I love this picture that Davos actually paints of the people of Claw Isle for Stannis and Axel because he's really telling his own story of what happened at the Blackwater in many ways. He says, His men fought for you, killed for you, burned for you. Claw Isle is weakly held, yes, held by women and children and old men. And why is that? Because their husbands and sons and fathers died on the Blackwater.

That's why. And I'm just like, yes, this is Davos literally describing what happened to his family and his sons that died for Stannis. And Axel's like, you know what, let's just destroy them even more so that some men can taste victory on what's left behind by those who have been defeated. Yeah, it kind of highlights what's so sad about Blackwater. You know, Stannis leading all those men to their deaths. And Melisandre at least saw some of it. You know, I feel like Melisandre could have been watching from the flame while it was happening, honestly. But yeah, it just highlights how sad it is.

Can you imagine when the chain comes up? They're all trying to go back. It's like, oh, we're fucked. The moment the chain comes up and you're like, fuck, we calculated this all wrong. And then you'll never see your family again yeah horrible davos says axel proposes that we want to sweep down rape their widows and put their children to the sword but the small folk they're no traitors and axel argues he's like some of them are not all the men who were slain but kelthgar's men met the knee exactly and that's exactly what they discuss he's like they had no choice and he says every man has choices they might have refused to kneel some

did some died for it yet they died true men and loyal davos says some men are stronger than others stanisbutt said and he's like not not objectively yes they have to die for their rightful king that is the whole thing and then he says which i think is an important note of the whole entire chapter even if the lord he serves proves false davos takes some notes there just in case right even if your lord proves false you're supposed to serve him loyally a little bit of hypocrisy which davos then calls him out for and he's like oh like you remain loyal to aries when robert raised his banners little messy stannis little messy yes he's he's a huge hypocrite and it takes davos pointing that out to him because he does hold people to different standards than he holds himself

anybody that's certain that's so like locked into into a certain mindset is going to be a hypocrite. Because you have to evolve for different situations. Every situation is different. So, you know, of course he's a hypocrite. Yeah, Axel is pissed about it, right? Because he's like, that's treason, what you're saying. That's treason. And Stannis is like, all right, get out of here, Axel.

Sends him away. And once Axel is gone, Stannis warns Davos, I can shorten your tongue. And Davos is like, it's your tongue to do with as you please, your grace. Okay. It's kind of lewd. Fifty shades of gray. Stannis Baratheon, the character. Yeah.

But it pleases Stannis for Davos to tell the truth, he says, as bitter as it is. It pleased him. Oh, yeah. Oh, I know. This is one of those things you take out of context. I'm like, what is this? What's happening here? What are they talking about?

Little two, a little different kind of hot going on in there. This is less sexy, though, talking about the ownership. Well, I don't know. It depends over Davos. Not going to talk about what people are into regarding that. But regarding the threats that Samus makes to Davos's body and his tongue, it brings to mind, of course, our friend Lo has been talking about Foucault a lot, but Foucault specifically book Discipline and Punish and the discussion about treason

being a crime against the sovereign body which could help explain, you know, why they're like, yeah, people have to die for this regardless of the spectrum, right, of where their crime falls or why tongues get cut out to quote, Besides its immediate victim, the crime

attacks the sovereign. It attacks him personally since the law represents the will of the sovereign. It attacks him physically, since the force of the law is the force of the prince. Then Foucault quotes Myard de Voulin, who is a legalist or something, law expert during the 1700s, who says, for a law to be enforced in this kingdom, it must necessarily have emanated directly from the sovereign or at least been confirmed by the seal of his authorship so foucault discusses the law as being an extension of the king's body so any violation of the law of any sort is therefore considered something sort of treasonous and therefore must be punished uh vengefully on

on the criminal's body and so part of what i think those who followed robert loved so much about him was that he wasn't like aries right aries cut out ill and pain's tongue for allegedly saying treasonous things he was just like tywin's the real power right tywin's doing a good job fuck you yeah yeah aries was like i don't like that i don't like people saying things like that and it's so it's interesting to me that sanis threatens to cut out davos's tongue but at least you know he does differ from aries and that he's like i would rather you tell me these hard truths though uh and and aries didn't i'm giving some cookies anything yes yeah but all of that has to kind of end though you know all of this cutting out tongue

stuff like i feel like anyone that's like constantly being like i'm gonna cut out your tongue it's like hey maybe like maybe you shouldn't be following this person like maybe you need to find someone better to serve yeah honestly i've never fully understood why davos just fought love stanis so much Has he seen something in this man that he's just holding on to? Because I feel like Stannis just has so many flaws that it's just like, oh God, him? And then what he does,

we know what he does after this, so it's like, whoa. So honestly, going back to what Axel or Alistair says, you will betray him. I think he will i didn't think that's what's gonna happen and we're gonna talk about that specifically at the end of davos's arc obviously because you can't give away your hand all at the front of the whole entire story but i think it's pretty obvious that davos has to deflect i mean he's given everything he can

and the only reason why in this chapter which he is sitting here kind of horrified by half and half of what's going on. He's like, all right, you're still kind of being a hypocrite boss. And here he kind of gets re-bolstered because Stannis comes out and he's like, we'll make new lords, you know, you're lord now. And it gives him a little inspiration. But as we get through this, the focal point of the end of the chapter is not on Davos becoming lord. And I think that says something. that is interesting yeah we set off on this monologue from stannis about how hard it was to choose between king aries the second his liege or of course his blood his brother robert and he talks about king scab a, and how that throne was murderous, right? Maegor was murdered by it.

And Stannis thinks, I don't know why my brothers wanted it so badly. Or you? Question mark? Also? Question mark. He gives us one of the biggest lines that everybody likes to run with to claim that he's not going to burn his daughter. It is not a question of wanting.

The throne is mine as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter unless Selyse could finally give me a son. Rhaenyra? Question mark? Rhaenyra? Question mark? Anyways, he says he needs to drain the swamp of all of the Westerosi scum that's been growing there, starting with Cersei and her abominations, and the conversation comes to Jaime. He says that Robert should have stripped the white cloak from jamie and set him to the wall as lord stark urged and he said that instead robert listened

to john erin and then he says my new favorite line of the entire series i was still at storm's end under siege and unconsulted i was under siege and unconsulted. Oh my god. Jesus, Stannis. Have some fucking self-respect. Fuck. Oh my goodness. Gross spine, kid. No one asked me. He acts like...

And it's just so obvious what he wants, right? And he can't say it. He doesn't know how to say it to even himself. Unconsulted. Unbelievable. He's so bitter and hurt by everything in the past. That's why it's just so rigid. It's almost like a Taiwan kind of rigidness,

but Taiwan is way less pathetic than Stannis, I feel like. kind of rigidness but like taiwan is way less pathetic than stannis i feel like um but he wasn't he didn't complain that no one respected him because he got respect like people respected taiwan i mean i feel like taiwan is kind of what stannis was trying to be he's trying to be like taiwan is what he wants to be like he wants to have that level of respect and fear and people just do what i say because i'm in charge of this but like no one ever respected him so he could never grab onto it and he definitely envied the way robert aspired loyalty and he was so bitter that rinley had was able to amass such a large army and that rinley had like this is he's like he's like this is mine really

why and that's why he's like he he feels bad about killing rinley but it's also that level where he's like, this is mine, Renly, why? And that's why he's like, he feels bad about killing Renly. But it's also that level where he's like, yeah, you were taken. It was my turn. Well, yeah. It's that bitterness. He has to justify it for himself because he can't live with it. And I think in this chapter, he is tempted to go Tywin route, right? With the claw isle plan.

That feels a little reminiscent of. Burn the villages burn the farm. It feels very reminiscent of those Lannister. Sorts of things. With what happened to House Rain. Oh yeah. But even though. Stannis is tempted to start going the fear route.

Which I think he. Every now and then he tries to do it. What he ultimately wants is that Robert route. With the love. Because I think that the speech is kind of like. His so many vows they make you swear and swear. he every now and then he tries to do it what he ultimately wants is that robert root with the with the love because i think that the speech is kind of like his so many vows they make you swear and swear especially in coming up with the whole like aries or robert which one did he end up picking and also like a jamie chapter comes right after this one so that's why it's really interesting that he's like robert should have stripped the cloak from Jamie. And it's a similar dilemma, right, that Jamie faced in that moment, too. It's simultaneously

his family, right, because Tywin's coming in, and he was told to bring Tywin's head and his duty. And also the question of the deaths of thousands versus the death of one man and his own honor when it comes to the Edric Storm stuff in a second. And I think it's also the same dilemma. It keeps coming up in the story right that amen faced and and tells john of what is honor compared to a man's love what is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms or the memory of a brother's smile and you know stannis keeps saying he doesn't want the throne but like nobody fucking tries that hard unless they really fucking want it he wants it does. He might not want power or kingship

in the way that someone like Axel does, but he wants it in that he wants someone to finally be like, yes, Stannis, good job. You did it. You deserved it. He wants to be seen. That's that middle child syndrome. That's what I think.

I've related to Stannis that I'm a middle child, so I feel like, oh, you're kind of invisible. But he wants to be seen, and he feels like this is the way that I can finally be seen. Like, I'm not, like, the big badass with the axe like Robert. And I'm not, like, the pretty boy like Rinley. But if I am king, then everyone has to do what I say and look at me and respect me and see me. Absolutely.

That's what's happening, I think. And you didn't do what Stannis does. And that's why you're on this podcast and we like you. Unlike how no one likes Stannis. The stewing and the bitterness. Yeah. Despite being a middle child. Not an attractive trait at all.

Yeah. And, you know, like you said, he wanted people to see him and love him. And that's why, like, everything in the speech, he never lets up on the whole Robert thing, right? Because he wants, he's chasing Robert's love this whole time. That's why he's chasing Robert's chair. That's why he's like, oh, we can't say that. He keeps saying that Robert loved him little or that, like, he wants Beloved striked out of that letter. or that like he wants beloved striked out of that letter and he nurses those grievances right he thinks that Dragonstone was a dishonor and it wasn't Robert was just a jock and didn't really think about it he's like this is cool right you can have Dragonstone the old

Targaryen thing and really you get like storms in thing that we've been had for like Stannis you got the cooler castle dude I would have loved I know Dragonstone looks so crappy in the show but the book version of dragon stone with the dragon towers and all that stuff yeah agan's garden it looks cool when danny gets there it does it does look cool i love that bridge thing they gave in the show when she's like walking across it that was cool for sure but i miss all the dragon

towers and like the gargoyle the throne the freaking dragon throne dragon towers and the gargoyles. The throne. The freaking dragon throne. Yeah. And the room. All the rooms look actually super cool. Yeah. You're in a dragon's mouth and stuff. Yeah. But yeah, Stannis is chasing after the memory of her brother's smile.

And he doesn't know. No, he sure doesn't. Well, Stannis does want the truth for once. He never asks for the truth, but from Davos. And this time he wants the truth about Davos murdering Melisandre. And he's like, Davos, this is not her for once, lol. He's like, this is not her fault. She wasn't there, you know, curse the imp, the pyromancers, Imri.

Curse me, which Davos refuses to as we know but not melisandre because she remains faithful and davos is like hey you had a faithful servant once his name was maester crescent and melisandre killed him but again he's like no he killed him idiot which is actually true for once again stanis making points like davos you're pissed yeah no don't blame her. Don't at her. It's not okay. Stannis says she had no more part in it than I did.

And Davos is surprised. Stannis is like, all right, good. Well, now that you're settled on that, listen, the boy is sick. Pylos has been leeching him, which all sounds kind of good for a second. Davos is like, wait, is this Devon, my son? And Stannis says, no, no, no. Devon's a good boy. He's fine.

He has a lot of you, too much of you, actually, in him, Davos. But it's my brother's bastard. Robert's bastard. Edric Storm is sick. The boy, because he doesn't say his name, as we know. And Davos says, ah, I met him in Aegon's garden. And Stannis immediately sighs, and he's like, as she wished, as she saw, referring to Melisandre. He asks if Edric

charmed Davos, because he would have learned that gift from Robert, who Edric worshipped. Stannis says Edric forgets that he's bastard-born, growing up with the gifts of swords and cloaks and ponies and that very spider made sure to remind Robert of the boy's existence and birthday every year. Can you imagine saying such a thing? The boy forgets that he is bastard born.

Who the fuck cares, right? Bitch, who cares? I'm bastard born and I'm cool as fuck. Most of us are. Yeah! Shut the fuck up. He's so salty. He's like, how dare he have a birthday? How dare he? I didn't get birthdays.

He could have thrown his own birthdays if he wanted. You could have had awesome party standings with cake, balloons, whatever you wanted. You could have made it happen. You could have made your life into something beautiful what you just chose to stew in your own bitterness and then kill your own brother with dark magic.

So yeah, you deserve what's happening, kind of. You're a kinslayer. Now all you have are velour titties. And then he's still super bitter about it, right? He talks about how Renly was no better than Edric and that Edric was just raised by the castlings and the maesters and then santa says that they were victim to his charms and that penrose had rather died than give him up and i'm like hey it's robert's ghost but i'm just like maybe they just like actually loved edrick yeah victims to his charm he's not manipulative he's

just a boy and they loved him because he grew up there yeah yeah that's that's that means they liked him stan is victims oh my god it's like if we're reading another series historic materials and he's like i see him as like the lyra of and and storms and this jordan college oh my goodness oh it's just a boy shit and and that's reiterated right because then he goes you know what okay again i have to give stannis like one whole prop here because he says how could he think i would hurt the boy i chose robert did i not when that hard day came i chose blood over honor but davos thinks he does not use the boy's name Davos hopes that Edric is going to

recover uh and Stans is like yeah yeah it's a chill no more he coughs he shivers he has a fever he'll be fine Pylos will set him right and you know he by himself he's nothing but he does have my brother's blood as as she said, there's power in Kang's blood. And Davos knows who she is, and he knows who the boy is, right? He doesn't need these decodings. Stannis shows him the painted table, saying, Look at my realm. By rights, my Westeros.

Stannis calls the seven kingdoms folly, and he says, Even Aegon saw that as displayed in the table, because there are no borders. It's one realm, one king to rule them are no borders it's one realm one king to rule them all right davos says one king means peace and stannis says he'll bring justice to westeros which axel florent does not understand yeah he doesn't and i'm just like honestly if stannis gave this speech to people instead of being like it's your duty to follow me if he sold them a vision of peace that he sees and justice. Exactly.

People might actually want to follow him. That's what inspires people. And then, yeah, this hypocrisy in this next part, too. Stannis agrees that the Celtigar plan was evil and that Celtigar must still pay a price. And he's all like, every man shall reap what he has sown from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat and some will lose more than the tips off their fingers I promise you they have made my kingdom bleed and I do not forget that

you are making your how many people died for you yeah like the battle of black water was bloody bloody and you will yeah so I just I just like I just see pure hypocrisy there pure hypocrisy you're continuing to make the kingdom bleed everyone who is under you is suffering nobody is happy right now

yeah okie dokie Stannis I mean the Asha chapters are pretty damning they are just saying I mean the Northmen are kind of okay yeah they're They're like, whatever. We're fine. This is normal. Walking through the snow. Yeah. The numbers of the Southerners who followed him, those are decimated, though, right? Yeah, just dwindled. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah.

He's like, why does no one vote for me? Saying shit like this. Anyway. He commands Davos to his knees along with Odin his his tongue and um that he knighted davos once for his onions and fish and he's of a mind to make him lordly davos is smart because at first he's like no that's okay i'm all right without that lordship man i'm good i'm good i already lost all my kids you know what i mean i'm all right he's like being lordly is false and uh stannis actually says sorry stannis says that being lordly is false and uh stannis actually says sorry stannis says

that being lordly is false which is hysterical and he commands him to kneel and we get our first glimpse at light bringer which melisandre of course has told us the red sword of heroes drawn from the fires where seven gods were consumed the room seemed to grow brighter as the blade slid from its scabbard steel had a glow to it it, now orange, now yellow, now red. The air shimmered around it and no jewel had ever sparkled so brilliantly. But when Stannis touched it to Davos's shoulder, it felt no different than any other longsword. There is no heat. It's a glamour. It's a glamour.

It is. It's all fluff. It's nothing glamour. It's a glamour. It is. It's all fluff. It's nothing. It's not real. George R. R. Martin always tells us that it's not real. In this scene and in future scenes, he's always being like, it's pretty and shiny. It's not real. Yeah.

It's pretty cut and dry. The Baratheon brothers were chasing things that weren't real in general. Delusions. You are so right. Ghosts. You're 100% right. Like, Robert was chasing Lyanna, and then Renly was chasing this idea that he could be king, and now Stannis is chasing something. I don't even know.

I guess, whatever. Yeah, you're right. All just chasing delusions. They could have had something real if they looked around them at each other. But they didn't. It's the difference of the Starks, right? This is off topic, but the fact that Robert

thought that Liana would just be like this, I'm gonna be your wife. It's ridiculous. You would have been just as miserable. You were going to strip clubs every night, too. Come the fuck home. We'll make a house here. If you don't want to make a house with me what's the point honestly Liana might have killed him sooner

Liana might have slit his throat you know we could have had a better realm if he had his throat slit sooner oh a wolf tore his throat out I don't know who did it darn the series is over. That would have been cool. That would have been an interesting way

to say it. I would have loved that story. So, Stannis charges Davos of being true. His true and honest siege man, now and forever, serve him loyally, honest counsel, swift obedience, defend his rights.

Anyways. And his realm against all foes, he tells them to rise as Davos Seaworth, Lord of the Rainwood, Admiral of the Narrow Sea, and Hand of the King. He just sneaks that last job in there.

Davos is like, what? Excuse me? I was just in the dungeon. Bitch, what? I know. excuse me i was just in the dungeon bitch what i know you can't just give me that promotion and like he's like the the pay increase is not nearly enough the benefits are none too much responsibility for what i'm getting paid honey absolutely he tries to remind him i'm low. The lords won't obey me. And then Stannis says that line that everyone loves.

If then we will make new lords. And Davos is like, I'm couldn't qualify. Yeah. Davos is like, I can't read or write. And Stannis is like, it's fine. Maester Pylos will do these things for you. He's like, my last hand wrote a little just too much, and you know, this is a great job for you.

Great for your resume. Moving on up. Started in the bottom of Dragonstone now the whole team is fucking here. Eliana mentioned it earlier about the Jamie chapter, and I'm glad that she already broke the surface, because I didn't want to be shitposting on the podcast, but Jamie and Brienne get in the prefect's bathroom,

take a really hot bath, right? The prefect's bathroom. That's all I could think of. It feels like that. He looks at her bush. It's a whole thing. But the dynamic Davos and Stannis have, and the idea that Davos is down to serve DTS, down to serve Stannis, DTSS,

if you really want to go that far, and that he stays with that decision, even though he knows Stannis is a shit person and like has caused people to die and all this, reminds me a lot of Jaime and Brienne and the way Brienne kind of cares for Jaime, even though he's kind of a shitty person when she meets him, right? Even up to when he tells her in the next chapter, you swore a solemn vow. And even that tension, like, it does have a little sexual tension, as it does with Davos being like, yes, you own my whole fucking life now, Stannis.

Where do you want me to put this tongue, Stannis? You know where. And Jamie, like, in detail describes in the next chapter that the people he swore to serve back in his days and swore to turn the other cheek and look away from, from their crimes, were mad for fire. There's a little something there. And I do think that there could even be an echo for Davos's plot, right? What does Jaime do for the woman with wildfire in her eyes in his plot, right? What does he do for Cersei? Abandons her.

Maybe Davos still has room to abandon Stannis. Yeah, I mean, Jaime does refuse that handjob, so. If only Davos had refused this hand job if only well he tries to deflect the title he does try you know and say maybe someone else should take this and stannis recants to him that all he has is bar emin old lord estermont a six-year-old valerian boy and also house sunglass left when, you know, I burned the other one. And he's like, I have

good people, but they're also, like, in places I need them to be, like Gilbert Farring, Lord Morrigan, the Nightsong's Bastard, Lord's Chittering, and Andrew Estermont remain. But Stannis is like, I want you and your honesty. And Davos decides to give him the honesty he craves, which is that his men cannot survive another battle against the Lannisters.

And then Melisandre makes her entrance in her silks and satin and has a covered dish in hand. Yeah, bon appetit. Stannis speaks of the great battle, how the great other gathered troops and of their doom to come. She placed the silver dish on the painted table. Unless true men find the courage to fight it, men whose hearts are fire, Stannis stared at the silver dish. She has shown it to me, Lord Davos, in the flames. You saw it, sire? It was not like Stannis Baratheon to lie about such a thing. saw it, sire? It was not like Stannis Baratheon to lie about such a thing. Yes, Stannis had seen the ashes drifting white in the fire, but they had turned to snow and a ring of torches circling. The cinders became men in black behind the torches, shapes in the snow. For all the heat of the fire, I felt a cold so terrible I shivered. And when I did, the sight was gone, the fire but a fire once again. But what I saw was

real. I'd stake my kingdom on it. And have, said Melisandre. The conviction in the king's voice frightened Davos to the core. So the first thing that Stannis actually mentions that he sees in this vision is snow with a capital S. Snow. It is the beginning of a sentence, so like that could mean anything. But it's pretty clear in Melisandre's chapter. It just really makes you think. It means a lot. I mean, Stannis is marching. Look, snow, winter, cold, death.

And then there's also Jon Snow on top of that. So it's like double meaning. She's looking for Stannis and she's seeing snow. Snow is death. Winter is death. Stannis, he's seeing a lot of snow. That's death. And it's also maybe Jon Snow.

So I think it's like dual meaning right there. Totally. Yes. Like Robert saying, kings popping up from beneath the snow. Kings, Ned. Kings out of the snow. Ned sweating bullets. He's like, that must be me.

What? Ned sweating bullets. He's like, that must be me. It's funny because it all really vaguely reminds me of the Fires of Pompeii episode from Doctor Who. Where you have some seeing into fires. Yeah, bringing it back. I figured you might know what I'm talking about. And the guy, Peter Picaldi, he comes back to play Doctor Who. And it's connected. They do connect. He's like, where did I see this face before?

They had this whole thing and I had totally forgotten it so they hit me like so good with that one i was like we fucking love fan service you know if you do it right good for you like do it right it's not that hard go on the internet doctor who's so good at it overall though i i think obviously the night's watch is pretty obvious and it also kind of reminds you of the others and even of as danny and a bit here before is getting her unsullied army right and i find melisandre's pushed have stannis be the one reading the fires and taking accountability interesting uh kind of making him read it and him take accountability for the decisions he's making not just so melisandre can be responsible for it as he reiterates in this chapter that it's not her

fault. He is the one choosing his way. And earlier I mentioned Melisandre kind of reminds me of Melano in Greek mythology. And Melano is a thonic nymph of the underworld cloaked in the hues of saffron, reminiscent of the east, of course, where the spice was first discovered. She's been a bit erased by mythos. She's been syncretized with Persephone, but she was the daughter of Persephone and Zeus. Zeus was disguised as Hades and raped Persephone to produce her because, of course, the infertility problems rose with Hades. So she was responsible for bringing nightmares and madness to people, buried in imagery not dissimilar to Hekare. This is kind of what Davos sees Melisandre as,

as this woman filling Hades' mind with madness and nightmares, but here, with him reading the fires instead of Melisandre, it forces Davos to kind of start to reckon with his god being responsible for his actions. We end up seeing Davos push Stannis to do the right thing through Storm, in that reckoning beginning to make schemes and cover-ups to do what he thinks is the correct thing for his god's regime, as we'll see with Edric moving forward and possibly with his decision to bring Rickon back or not later. Melina was born at the mouth of the Kakitas in the Underworld, where Hermes in the underworld aspect as a cycle pump was stationed.

According to him, she brings night terrors by manifesting in strange shadowy forms that are plain to the eye, then shadowy, then shining in the darkness and can drive mortals insane. So the purpose of her point in the hymn is showing Orphic initiate understanding, respecting her nature, thereby averting the harm she has the capacity for causing, just like Melisandre. Like, okay, i just want to make a comment on on melanone i don't i'm not familiar with her but yeah just an observation like all of the women in greek mythology have such sad stories i was just reading up on medusa for a video that i'm working on and medusa in the in the most terrible version of that myth she's she's raped by poseidon in athena's temple and then punished by athena because she got raped yeah and then she's turned into this

horrifying monster and then perseus comes and kills her for no reason when she's minding her own business so he can conquer his enemies it's like what like why yeah yeah no i agree she was so maligned yeah and i know that some people like to go with a more optimistic view that athena might have turned her to protect her but then i'm like i have heard that viewpoint but it's like what but then why did she help perseus and you turned her into a terror she can never feel she can never love she if she looks you in the eye, you turn to stone. So that's not a gift. It's obviously a curse.

Yeah. And the gods just love doing that. The gods suck. That's the moral. That was, I think, the moral of a lot of these. Davos attempts to puzzle out the meaning as we attempt to puzzle out the meaning of what happened to all the women in Greek mythology and Melisandre solves this one for him, it means that the battle has begun

and that man's hour on earth is near done Westeros must unite under her true king the prince that was promised, lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R'hllor, and Stannis thinks that R'hllor has chosen pretty strangely wondering why him and not his brothers

and interesting, Davos feels this way like a second ago, anyways, Stannis admits to seeing Renly and his peach in his dreams juice running from his mouth but blood from his throat and says that had Renly done his duty they could have defeated Tywin and it would

have been a victory and he's very clear that it's like a victory that even Robert would have been proud of like interesting and again don't get Stannis started on Robert who's also in his dreams who's laughing and drinking and boasting you know uh Stannis you also could have cooperated with Renly you know I know Renly was just like kind of in the wrong but honestly if everyone had just listened to Renly maybe things could have been better like Ned too like honestly when Renly had that

idea like we should just like get the fuck out of here I don't know he should have maybe listened but whatever yeah Renly was like shit's over dude you gotta go this is it take the TV and get out yeah bring the Tyrells in

you know I mean Ned was just like oh that's cute Renly likes this girl who looks like Leona they have the best of each other if they would have just joined up it would have gone okay right like you guys have the halves that the other is missing you have the military prowess you have the battle prowess

you have charisma. And neither of you has two brain cells to rub together. But I mean, we can try our best. We can decide who gets to be king afterwards. Let's do the thing. And then we decide afterwards who gets to be king. Then we kill each other. Exactly.

If it was that important and if it meant that much to uproot the Lannisters, you guys would have done it by now. That's the big thing. It's about pride. It's not about the Lannisters. It's not about helping the people. It's not about the kingdom leading. It's not about any of that. It's all ego.

Even beyond that, you know, like how he, if I go, if we go even back more, he could have stood by Robert Morin, but then he fled King's Landing when Jon Arryn died. Absolutely. Why weren't you there to protect your king? Your brother. Yeah. And then he has like the audacity to shit on ned which again another little jamie i know right because they both really have a hot

slash hate ned like they're like i would hate fuck him or get hate fucked by him i'm not sure which it depends on the scenario but yeah like they both really hate ned because of shit that they did yeah yeah so it's like what was my fault dude i don't know what to tell you well melisandre says that stannis is a righteous man and he's like no i'm a righteous man with leeches mel and she reiterates hey i said this earlier but this this is not the right way it could work but it isn't gonna really work and you know how to make it work give me the boy it's a surer way a better way and i can wake the stone dragon which sounds like a great idea for everyone involved and he says he is only one base-born boy against all the boys of westeros and all the girls

as well against all the children that might ever be born in all the kingdoms of the world i love that there's a lot of ambiguity in this line, right, just because they use the word boy as opposed to anyone's name, because it becomes, I think, just as much about Joffrey as it is Edric. Maybe even Rob, in some ways, he's not baseborn, right, but Stannis does hesitate

right before he says his name when he throws the leech in the fire. John! Oh, yeah. Also John. He's I. It's not like we did, spent months i don't know him who is he uh stannis says he's innocent that edric is innocent and melisandre's like the boy shamed you in your marriage bed and he's like no again stannis is actually like seeing almost clearly and it's really strange he's like robert did that and he says i won't burn the boy he's friendly with my daughter okay and he's my blood okay uh and then we launch into of course the beautiful passage that we cannot not

read your brother's blood melisandre said a king's blood only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon stannis ground his teeth I'll hear no more of this. The dragons are done. The Targaryens tried to bring them back half a dozen times and made fools of themselves or corpses. Patchface is the only fool we need on this godforsaken rock. You have the leeches. Do your work.

Melisandre bowed her head stiffly and said, As my king commands. Reaching up her left sleeve with her right hand, she flung a handful of powder into the brassiere. The coals roared. A pale flame writhed atop them. The red woman retrieved the silver dish and brought it to the king. Davos watched her lift the lid. Beneath were three large black leeches, fat with blood. The boy's blood, Davos knew. A king's blood. Stannis stretched forth a hand,

and his fingers closed to round one of the leeches. Say the name, Melisandre commanded. The leech was twisting in the king's grip, trying to attach itself to one of his fingers. The usurper, he said. Joffrey Baratheon. When he tossed the leech into the fire it curled up like an autumn leaf amidst the coals and burned. Stannis grasped the second. The usurper, he declared, louder this time. Balon Greyjoy! He flipped it lightly onto the brassiere, and its flesh split and cracked.

The blood burst from it, hissing and smoking. The last was in the king's hand. This one he studied a moment as it writhed between his fingers. The usurper, he said at last, robbed Stark and threw it into the flames. Fire. Straight fire. And blood. So creepy.

God, the way he describes the black leeches full of blood writhing and trying to attach itself. I know. I wouldn't have even been able to. So disgusting. Leeches, I have to say, one of the most terrifying insect, parasite, animal type things. Like, oh my God. Horrifying. I have had one on me and it's horrifying.

It's gross. Oh no. Yeah, it's just thinking i used to go to the lake a lot when i was a kid i had family that had like a lake house and so we would go there i remember when i was really young and i just remember one time getting out of the lake and having these black things on me and leeches yeah that happens if you got that's why i'd never anytime we're like let's go in the creek. No, because I've seen that like, yeah, it's disgusting. You're like, I know what happened last time with leeches. Okay, I know.

King's blood. And to think that Roose Bolton is into this and does this all the time. It's like his favorite activity. What a freak. Like when we see him in Heron Hall, oh my God. How creepy. Yeah. And leeches aren't used today i did some googling on some modern medicine for us all and they're used to help heal skin grafts and for treating

burns wow yeah so like yeah maybe leeches could have helped shireen's face i don't know maybe but no thanks i'd rather just be disfigured People use maggots and stuff too Okay, no, that's enough, Eliana That's enough of that Okay, that is enough of that Any, like, wormy, crawly things That fire and blood chapter With the snakes with hands and faces

Like, no Snakes with hands, yeah Area, or not area, other one It was area Oh, but the twin yeah but they switched yeah so it wasn't yeah it was rayella it was rayella technically right yeah oh so sad gross interesting for someone who has a black worm around his heart though stannis with his black worm black worm black leech yeah yeah you're brilliant look at the black exactly that's totally georgia martin

is totally trying to call attention to that i think black exactly that's totally georgia martin is totally trying to call attention to that i think for sure that's why he talks about the black worm and it's trying to attach itself to him and there's a bunch of leeches around him right like axel i i axel florence definitely a leech exactly and then stan is he's being sucked dry too like he's like withering like as though a leech is sucking him and draining him. That's a really good point, yeah. That's true. There's a lot going on.

Why have I not thought about these leeches more? It's funny. Well, I guess my big final thought about the episode is about this whole handjob for Davos, right? And how it is positioned in the story. for Davos, right, and how it is positioned in the story, it's kind of damning because as I mentioned earlier, becoming a lord was not the focal point of

this story, this chapter. The climax was the leeches. So Davos now has said yes. He has to stand there complicit and watch as Stannis does this as well as everything else. Like, this was a trick. Stannis was like, hey, you want to be lord? Cool, stand there and watch some cool shit real quick.

And then he does this leech bullshittery. And so that is the actual climax. Is the leeches. Davos isn't even involved. He's watching quietly. He's stunned. He has no agency in the moment. What is he going to do?

Say my king don't do it. No. Because he just watched Axel get thrown out. For the same goddamn thing so he has to stand quietly and watch in horror as they burn these leeches and say the names of the usurpers which as we know yes balin grayjoy sucks but like rob rob's not a bad guy he's just a kid doing what he can so davos can only hope that this is just like some bullshit he's just a kid doing what he can. So Davos can only hope that this is just like some bullshit. He's just hoping that like, oh, yeah. So you ladies probably remember this because you've been doing the chapter by chapter.

This is before or after the Ghost of High Heart prophecy with Arya. It's Arya 4 and Arya 8. So this would be after that? Arya 4 and that's the first meeting of her. And Arya 8, I believe, is more of that. And also the Edric Dane chapter. And you're going to Shara Dayne backstory, not that I know that for any reason.

Yeah, so this is before. Interesting. Interesting. So I was just wondering about the succession of magic, so Melisandre does this spell, sends it out, and the ghost high heart, she picks up on it somewhere out there in the ether, and there's magic things happening.

Because I look at magic and prophecy in A Song of Ice and Fire as though, like, there's information, there's things out there in the ether that there's magic things happening because i look at magic and prophecy in a song of ice and fire as though like there's information there's things out there in the ether just like kind of floating around and there's different methods that people use to like view it so there's fire there's the wherewood net or whatever there's the green dreams they're all just pulling onto things that are out there just somewhere you know at least that's how i see it if we're thinking about this more in like a esoteric way yeah let's agree yeah i think i i hold a similar philosophy that it's like are they necessarily different sources of magic or maybe maybe not but it's like all looking into the same and that's why like you have some of the same

symbols right overrunning like with the forsaken absolutely chapters and the and the imagery granted it is shade of the evening but the imagery that danny sees in the house of the undying even like i said we talked about earlier with milicentra looking through the flames and blood raven seeing her through the flames it's like his stuff is connected to her like it's almost like the streams got crossed i know we just went way off topic but yeah it's almost like the stream got crossed. I know we just went way off topic, but yeah, it's almost like the stream. Well, it's not really because we're talking about the leeches,

but it's like the streams got crossed almost. And it's like, whoa, what is that? Now I was thinking about the magic in A Song of Ice and Fire. It's generally like elemental. It's all like nature-based fire, blood, just very like kind of primal things. So it's like all tied into nature.

Even like the children of the forest, they talk about when they die they go into the trees and the earth and become a part of everything and then even like we see very realistic skins like later he like goes into the werewood tree and becomes like a part of like the all or whatever it is he's everything at once so it seems like there's this great source that's at the center of everything at the core of their reality of world. And then there's different ways that they can pull from it. And it's all about learning the way to do it. And that's what the skill is.

Those are all the different skills. I think that's interesting what you're saying, because I know that there's a debate as to whether or not Melisandre, right, like her throwing the leeches in the fire, whether or not she causes the deaths of these kings, or whether she's already seen it in her fires and is putting on this show. And you brought up the ghost of High Heart. And we also, again, have the House of the Undying prophecy before this and a bit ago, Patchface making reference also to the Red Wedding in Adabo's chapter. also to the red wedding um in a in the in adavos chapter so like it kind of gives credence to the idea of what you're saying of like she might have just through the fires already just tapped into a

vision of all this considering that everyone is already talking about this event especially around rob absolutely well melisandre is one of my all-time favorite characters as you ladies know like she's so awesome and cool but i wonder about her her, though. Like, I still, I know we're going to get that final moment where we're like, okay, here is, we get a tap of that, like, way later on. But, like, yeah, I'm waiting for the moment when shit hits the fan. Because I know there's a specific reason why she's so convinced that Stannis is the one. There has to be. Like, because she's so certain. And I wonder about that.

But here, yeah, I tend to back to the leeches just for one second. If it comes to whether or not she saw them or whether or not she did it. If I had to choose, I guess I would say that she probably saw it beforehand and then threw them in because she's telling Stannis that it's not going to work. She's like, this isn't this isn't what we need to do. Yada, yada, yada. And she does it just to be like, OK, I'll say to him them so it makes a lot more sense if this isn't like a real spell it's just like yeah i know they're gonna die so this will look convincing so well that's that's part of her trick chapter we get that reveal of the smoke and mirrors and how i mean that's the

thing is like you said i don't know she's gonna have to do some stuff but I think like Melisandre yes absolutely is a gray character which is so funny since she doesn't believe so right like she thinks she's just like no no I'm white I am good there's only good and bad as we can move forward we'll see the onion scene with the chopping of the onion right and some rot of the onion falling off and guess what the onion is still good beneath that rot so i think that stannis is going to be a really big learning point for her as well because she's going to realize oh i fucked up oops oops yeah she's going to be a really interesting one for those povs i mean as you said we learn a lot in that and she does bust out like those powders to put on more of a show here in this very moment the ones when she talks about as you said those smoke and mirrors and it's so interesting to see behind the mirror and and what we're going to get in wins as like more

things you know test her faith that's one of the things that the show kind of did right towards the end when they have mila sandra kind of realizing the mistake and she just becomes dejected and you just kind of see like the illusion fade for like a little bit. And you get the sense that this is a very tired person. This is the person that's been working hard for a really long time and is like just so convinced and, you know, they just kind of want to rest. And I get it because Mila Sondra, we don't have to talk, we don't have to, we can get into a whole thing about Milaandre but yeah we did yeah

we did we'll link it below we absolutely did Quinn it has been a pleasure to have you on thank you so much for joining us for Davos it was a fun reunion about mostly Melisandre right again please tell everyone once more where they can find you

on the internet and check out all your stuff and by Tadia absolutely guys well Quinn's ID is all over the place i'm on twitter all the time setting fires and pissing people off and on youtube uh is the main place you can find me quinn's ideas check out my dune content and other sci-fi and definitely have a gigantic backlog of the Song of Ice and Fire content going back years and years. So thank you girls for having me. It's been awesome. It's been awesome to go canon. Thanks for coming on.

You officially are a girl gone canon now. Yay. Oh my God. I'm so excited. Yeah. Check out Quinn's Dune content. My therapist is a big fan. I think you told me that last time.

That's not a joke. That's so hilarious. As always, you can find us online and check out our social media as well, at Girls Gone Canon on Twitter C-A-N-O-N, or shoot us an email if you have questions, comments, concerns, theories, pet pictures.

We recently got a great set of pet photos from our friend Sarah, and that is at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com yes or be sure to subscribe to us on many of the other different ways maybe these are kind of like different elements that you can see the girlsgonecanon stream

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All of the cast. If you're looking for one more place to throw the podcast into your feed, you can check out our Patreon over at patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon where we also produce extra content. We will have a new patron only episode for patrons in the stranger tier and above this month that is a his dark material

themed episode look out for that as always i have been one of your hosts chloe and i have been another one of your hosts eliana and i've been your guest host no no you are you're another another one of our hosts he has been another one of your hosts indeed who are you you have to see your name again i'm quinn hi guys oh i'm willing the podcast to quinn when we die so amazing i'll still be alive for sure right oh wow oh maybe oh coming back how many times at least nine at least nine cats out of the bag

absolutely all right