Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 123 - AGOT Catelyn VI

Episode Date: April 16, 2021

//apologies for the missing audio before—episode is updated and audio added --- Tits out for Lysa Arryn  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl] Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, Read A Song Of Ice And Fire, Episode 123, Catalan 6 in A Game Of Thrones. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. This is so exciting. You know, we always pay attention to the number just a little and it is 123. Isn't that fun? That's very fun. Very quaint. I didn't even think of it. So what a nice sprinkle of fun on our episode Eliana I love it it's the first time I think we've ever really been

able to do this episode 12 just like it's not exciting to be like yeah 1, 2 whatever so it requires thinking you know like equals 3 it's too much and listen this episode is more than just 1, 2, three to me.

It's the one, two, threes, the ABCs, the basics of the veil. Yes, because we lied last week. You may remember toward the end of our episode, we were like, we're going to Winterfell. I'm so excited. We're going back to Winterfell. She's taking Tyrion to Winterfell. Here we go. We're going with, wefell. She's taking Tyrion to Winterfell. Here we go. We're going with- We lied. We are in the Vale.

Yeah. Sorry. We lied. We said it loudly so that everyone would know, and now our enemies are heading to Winterfell, but we are in the Vale. Good for my infant sons. Whatever. Whatever.

They'll find out eventually. They'll be like, shit, we're in the wrong place. Well, the North is very vast, and I can see that ending poorly for a less seasoned traveler. Well, we are, you know, getting much more seasoned as travelers, right? We have a few things for this journey. For example, we have Patreon episodes this month for all of our patrons, $5 and up, stranger tier and above, which is named after a horse and essential for any trip. Yes, you'll need a horse for these adventures. This adventure this month is going to be to another world, right?

Every other month we do in A Song of Ice and Fire special patron episode. And every other other month we do a His Dark Materials or other story themed episode. So this month is His Dark Materials themed month. And we are going to be talking about the TV show the serial happening on bbc hbo depending on where you're watching from which country this month we'll be discussing a bottle episode that uh basically the missing episode right his dark materials season two had an episode that was supposed to happen and didn't because of the dreaded pandemic we're gonna break that down for you yes we are but other things that are happening right well one of them's already happened alas

was our patreon discord brunch slash happy hour that already happened last weekend but next month's date will be announced soon enough this is open to our patrons in the thunder tier and above ten dollars and up where as you all know we have our discord where people come hang out and when we get together we sometimes do games such as jackbox games and giveaways and get to know yous yeah we blast. You know, we talked last time about the game we played last month, Survive the Internet, which we all came back to again this month. I was cancelled.

I did not survive the internet in this fun party game we played. It was very sad. I was framed. I was honestly framed, just like Tyrion Lannister, good Tyrion Lannister in this chapter. Tyrion is framed. Yeah, so come to our Discord brunch.

You can cancel me there. I guess. That's a thing. That's a thing that's happened. Hopefully next month I don't get cancelled. Someone else playing the game gets cancelled. Well, something else is, as we have told you all, this part was not a misdirection. Unlike going to the north

this month we are not going to be putting out your regular weekly scheduled episode the last week of April this month we are going to be sharing our La Belle Sauvage episode next week and it will be La Belle Sauvage with we are so

excited to bring on our friend and special guest from the socialists of media zzzz Labelle Sauvage with, we are so excited to bring on our friend and special guest from the Socialistist of Media Zizzes Warren aka The Hedge Knight to help us out with some of the lore and legends

and really breaking that down in Labelle Sauvage. Yeah, if you haven't read the His Dark Materials series, you gotta. Eliana got me onto it. It's really fun. It's good, you know, in these times to read other books. I have to remind myself that sometimes it's a new thing, right?

So Eliana got me hooked. There are three main books. Then there's a companion trilogy of three other books. Two right now. One is impending. Someday we'll get it. We'll see. We're always waiting. You and me.

Eliana. I mean, that one's dependable. That one's coming out. Yes. Can't wait for that someday. The third, Book of Dust from Philip Pullman. So they aren't, uh, sometimes they aren't as faceted as this. They do have a lot of great, deep, different connections and they're all fun to get together and we're finishing La Belle Sauvage soon. So we're

excited to have our friend Warren on but we do have a Song of Ice and Fire episode after our swift break because as Eliana said there will be no episode in your feed the last Friday of April here 2021, no episode

but we will be back next month with a Catelyn episode. Catelyn 7 in a Game of Thrones featuring another special guest, our friend Clint from the Learned Hands podcast, Laws of Ice and Fire. He is the perfect judicial guest to have on to bring justice, justice to the trial about to happen in the Vale veil so we are excited to come back to you in may and hit the ground running with clint and cat cat and clint until then we will talk about

one email we received just one i want to pop it off with one from our friend scott a good friend of ours that hangs out at the Patreon Discord with us and always has some great insights. He's writing an essay about Cat and Lady Stoneheart and a lot of the themes we're actually talking about. It's pretty good. I hope he does release it someday, but no pressure.

But he did send us a great email that can kind of give you a glimpse of his lens on the series and what he sees in Cat, our friend scott says a greeting and also that scott is enjoying how the most controversial opinions on cat are about daddy malister and hair pulling i didn't think those were controversial i thought that those were objectively accepted by everyone so far from all the responses that we got we're just very controversial and brave we're bold we're forging a path that people

are afraid to say these things you know i think i mean they seem to be widely agreed upon every time we say they sell scott also says something i find interesting about the infamous in at the crossroads arrest is that it's the first of several actions Catelyn takes, but the consequences are faced not by her, but by her family. When Cat arrests Tyrion, Ned takes responsibility for her actions, and his entourage is slaughtered. In Catelyn's home region, the Riverlands is raided. When Catelyn releases Jaime in Clash, she volunteers to be placed in a dungeon, but is instead confined to her father's rooms. Jaime's release is the catalyst for the tension between Robb and Lord Karstark, whom

Robb eventually executes. Kat's actions are not seen as hers, but rather as an extension of the men in her lives. Even during the Red Wedding, Kat meets her demise, not because she kept her promise for Jingle Bell, but rather because she committed the great sin of being a screaming woman! What a sin

it is. This is a significant part of Kat's chapters, because she committed the great sin of being a screaming woman. What a sin it is. This is a significant part of Kat's chapters because she's the first and most prominent look we get into the challenges faced by women in Westerosi politics. This also plays a huge role in the arcs of Erienne, Asha, Brienne, and Cersei when they are introduced after the Red Wedding. The limitations that Katlyn feels as a noblewoman help tie the story in part to Dany's eventual campaign for Westeros, where the Dragon Queen may defy every convention for women and do little to correct her already concerning reputation. For Catelyn, we see this limitation again in her very next chapter, where she cannot find a polite way to refuse Bronn's request to join her and Tyrion at the Eyrie.

Every instinct Catelyn has tells her to leave the sellsword behind, but she's too bound by proper courtesies to do anything other than acquiesce, and leads to a tactical blow for the Stark family and their allies. Thank you, Scott. Scott is excited for the next half a year of Cat.

The Cat summer. Yeah, we've got like six to seven months I uh we're in our third our first catmester yes our first of the cat's lives

soon enough we'll get the second of her life yes not much else to say again just let them do the podcast god there's a lot brought into this chapter specifically of women leading women ruling what makes a woman leader and who's able to be a leader that we're going to get into today so i'm excited to come back to some of what scott talked about yeah i love that lens of this is the time that those consequences don't just affect cat but those around her and i think it's a perfect way to set up the rest of this chapter

yes because oh boy do consequences come and we're going to talk about them but first let's jump into our lightning round and check out what we missed from Catelyn V through Catelyn VI. In Sansa 2, Sansa attends her very first tourney, but the magic by day's end has faded when her prince charming turns into a dog? Eddard VII. Ned has his own tourney experience after trying to convince his king not to attend the Theristan. Lateristan later varies reveals to ned that robert was meant to die tyrian for tyrian arrives not in winterfell where he thought he was being taken but in the veil in the veil in the veil he attempts to convince catalan of his innocence but

is interrupted by the mountain men of the moon attacking and of course eliana wants to remix it old school style and read a quote here so we'll we'll pause the storm and take it away eliana yeah remember back then our lightning round sometimes we would interject quotes and stuff from the chapters that we wanted to call out that pertain to this one this one i just love this line you know whenever people say that they find Cat to be really dumb and unintelligent, I always come back to this line from Tyrion 4 in A Game of Thrones

This is the high road! He gasped, looking at Lady Stark with accusation The eastern road! You said we were riding for Winterfell! Catelyn Stark favored him with the faintest of smiles Often and loudly she agreed. No doubt your friends will You said we were riding for Winterfell! Catelyn Stark favored him with the faintest of smiles. Often and loudly, she agreed. No doubt your friends will ride that way when they come after us.

I wish them good speed. Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage. All his life, Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him and yet this seven times damned she-wolf catelyn stark had outwitted him at every turn i love it i love it and that is like the original the omega quote about it because of course later we get the slightly lesser but still good version from cersei right calling sansa who escaped her as she-wolf and uh it seems that is a lannister a lannister problem these days right wolves outwitting lions hmm it does seem so here

catelyn is not thought of as a tully but as a she-wolf which is interesting considering a line that you'll think of later later this chapter but speaking of other she-wolves we have aria three aria chases cats past the royal children all the way into the dungeons where she overhears two men plot to remove another hand and we go to that hand in eddard 8 ned and robert argue about the targaryen princess across the sea ned resigns in protest of his king's decision to murder her as ned packs for winterfell littlefinger arrives with last minute hints hidden in a brothel and that brings us to cat 6 in a game of thrones It's been two weeks of riding. And I think Catlin even murdered a man back there. But Catlin and her party finally reach the Bloody Gate,

where they meet players such as Donald Wainwood, Maya Stone, and of course, the long-awaited Brendan the Blackfish Tully! But things have changed in the Vale, and after a dangerous ride to the top, Catlin worries that she'll feel the chill of the eerie's icy walls. Liza's icy nipples. That's why they're so hard all the time.

Because it's so cold in that altitude. It's quite nipply up there in the eerie. Sir Donald Waynewood declares they would have sent an escort had they known Catelyn planned to take the High Road to the Eyrie yeah I love that at the start of this chapter Catelyn is warned that the High Road

isn't safe anymore but the High Road is all that Catelyn and Ned have been raised to take right it's that family duty honor. It's the thing that you're supposed to do as a well-bred high lord and lady. Catlin hasn't learned that the players and even those close to her haven't been taking the high road for years with Peter and Liza, you know, doing underhanded shit

like orchestrating John Aaron's death and Ned's new job. But how is Cat to know that the games changed since her girlhood and that the road she's always taken is no longer safe? Ned also ends up on the unsafe high road, and of course Katlyn learns to take the low road, but a bit too late, becoming later one of the forces that ends up actually making those literal high roads unsafe later on. This is

great because we actually do have Ned finally choosing to take the low road too late, right? When it comes to Littlefinger, that same road that he leaves the city that Littlefinger tells him, go, go out of this area of the city and you can get out and go see

this child I'm talking of and sansa is smuggled the same way out later in a storm of swords right she follows the same path her father did as she leaves the city to go to the port and get on that ship or that boat i should say before the ship and of course this grapples with some of the big themes that we see as an issue both catalan and liza in this chapter have quite obviously quite a bit of pride in quite a bit of different manners that we're going to talk about and approach yes of course catalan learns everything that you're speaking about like taking the low road instead of the high road the hard way right at the hands of the clansmen out in the mountains. We get a passage of her kind of discussing this grief.

Sometimes she felt as though her heart had turned to stone. Six brave men had died to bring her this far, and she could not even find it in her to weep for them. Even their names were fading. Oh yes, heart had turned to stone. Earhorns! Pew pew pew pew! were fading oh yes heart had turned to stone ear horns yeah i mean obviously we have to bring this up this is we know what it means what does it mean it is what does it mean it isn't that deep eliana no i'm just kidding beyond the obvious foreshadowing. I think it is notable here, this passage, she thinks of Tyrion serving

men as part of the six, right? So the six people that are left, that's including both of their parties, because when the mountain clans came down on them, they did join together in the previous chapter. She is unsure on her feelings around Tyrion. In the last chapter, part of her did kind of seem to look at him in a way that he was like yeah look we're almost at an understanding I'm not a bad guy and here she questions it later on for even a moment in here and the next chapter but this shows a little bit of good faith right that she's counting this men these men as part of her party the whole party in totality even if as we discuss moving forward she really isn't into bron's demeanor yeah it shows this responsibility that she feels towards

them right because and i think that's why it stands out that the names of the men who accompany tyrian are fading that shows us the changes that are happening in catelyn who as we've seen in the past few chapters usually does value the service i mean the meta reason is I'm pretty sure George is like, I don't feel like coming up with more names. But within the story, right, we know that Ned knew the names of the men who served him. We saw him warning them in the attack that they sustained in King's Landing as a result of these actions. And a few chapters ago, we saw that when Catelyn was at Winterfell and she was shirking her duties while grieving Bran, it's pointed out that she also knows every single person in her household, which is why she

recognized, she's like, I don't know this strange stable man who is trying to kill my son. And this is the same Catelyn who two chapters ago made a point of personally paying each man who rode her to King's Landing his silver. So there's definitely, I think, a sort of grief and shame, right? When Catelyn finds herself failing to remember these men who died for her and to mourn them and respect them because, as you're pointing out, she feels responsibility towards them. But that sort of mourning and remembering the people who served you, that's something that people on the high road do. And that high road, as we've said, is disappearing. Those lines are blurring for Kat. And we will be spending a lot of time moving forward in the next two books with her

as her grief kind of piles up, right? And you can kind of see it's hard for her at this time to do both things, right? She's trying to do her best, but she's kind of on it's hard for her at this time to do both things right she's trying to do her best but she's kind of on fumes they just survived an attack and she can't even think and this is kind of her state of being for the rest of her life or lives two lives oh my god am i gonna be anxious until i die probably holy shit okay feels bad man right as the men of the veil approach she thinks we're doomed but then they had realized it was the sky blue and white moon and falcon of house erin there to save them yes i wonder if this is something that sort of hints at us that one day we'll find that the banners of House Arryn

appearing over the horizon right will be a welcome surprise once more oh like in the Battle of the Bastards hmm kind of similar vibes but not exactly that okay do you think they misread it

though in that book reading the world of Ice and Fire. Sam's a POV. Which part, Chloe? Could you be more specific, Chloe? No, they were like, Battle of Seven Stars, Battle of the Bastards. Close enough. No, I'm just kidding.

We are good homies, me and D&D. Anyways, no, I'm thrilled. I am... All right, we have to talk about the Falcon in the room. You know me. I'm over here like the only person that cares about Vale history and our posse. I love the Vale. I just think it's glorious.

And I think George loves it. And I think that shows the Vale is like his perfect little, you know, palace, palace in the clouds. And I love that. He's actually said the Eyrie is based on neuschwanstein which is in germany it's near the austrian border by south bavaria it's a 19th century historicist palace on a rugged hill above a village and it's actually called the sleeping beauty castle it is a huge tourist attraction and it is the castle disney world and disneyland based

sleeping beauty's castle on it is perfect to help us envision this idea of the castle on a cloud with these close tight-knit little towers you know with princess stories originating in germany like snow white cinderella looking at you sansa stark and your missing shoe and of course sleeping beauty looking at you sansa stark and your missing shoe and of course sleeping beauty yeah absolutely all of the stories coming together here that castle in the sky and as you said regarding central there's a moment here in this chapter where trine's like well i'm not a pumpkin and i was like huh so that's that's a great veal history lesson for all of us. Donald is 20 and stocky with brown hair. He notes that the clans have grown bolder since Lord

John died, and word up to him, Donald would take a hundred men into the mountain to teach them sharp lessons. Not twenty good men, a hundred. But Lady Liza had forbidden that, along with forbidding the knights from participating in the hands tourney. She has been keeping the knights home, the swords in the veil for defense.

Against what, he says, no one knows. Shadows, some say. Ah, of course, that wonderful, wonderful idea of shadows on the wall. And politicking, coming to play, showing what's to come for the veil and their role in the future possibly right and as we go into a clash of kings there's proof that literal shadows are scary which i think is the funniest thing about it that this of course ties in so strongly with tyrian's plot with the politicking but literal shadows that you know could kill you could kill a king oh that's true that is in fact in this in the next book donnell hopes he hasn't spoken out of turn and caitlin offers that frank conversation does

not offend her which again caitlin's more about business than about niceties caitlin thinks that she knows what these shadows are they're lannisters she glances back at Tyrion and Bronn she's like did they notice my sub tweet in my head who had grown very close on the journey Tyrion is more clever than she liked he entered the Vale her captive but now look at him he's armored

he's unchained he's riding with a dirk and axe strapped to his saddle and he's laughing so am I man i mean i i have to give it up for him twice in this chapter here's one time i'll say it you know like good for you tyrian you're funny he cracks me up you know you can't not laugh a little at him he is a uh an easily likable antagonist and i love that i i love this line here that he's armored in not just the battle remains right like he's riding with what he's won from his battle but also the loyalty of these men true true he's been able to sort of get on the same level with them and as you were

discussing earlier regarding shadows right and as we've pressed throughout this character read of catlin the landisters were falsely maligned in all of this but there is though something to shadows being associated with the landisters as you said there's some of the those metaphors around shadows and power but also it reminds me of in a dance with dragons bakoro describing his vision of tyrian to tyrian and says and you a small man with a big shadow snarling in the midst of it all and and that line haunts me constantly it's interesting to consider when at this part of the story though right here at the very beginning because tyrian again is among the falsely accused well tyrian has done nothing wrong

within the confines of these chapters so far at this point. And it's interesting to compare Tyrion's time as a captive to Jaime being a captive on the road. Freed this time by Catelyn, kind of. Tyrion succeeds in getting his chains off, where Jaime doesn't.

But for both, when it comes to their traveling companions, Cat and Brienne, respectively, begin to question their assumptions about their captives. Yeah, I actually almost forgot about that beautiful, juicy content that we're going to have of Jaime and his chains later. So thank you, Eliana. Katlyn had to get rid of him because she was like, mm, it's too hot.

Katlyn was like, this is a moment too precious to happen in this timeline. She's like, I'm busy mourning my husband. I can't have Jason Malister and you here at the same time. I mean, why not? Okay, anyways. Tyrion shows no hint of fear though he is surrounded

by most of her men and her sister's men. Could I be wrong? Catelyan wondered not for the first time could he be innocent after all of bran and john aaron and all the rest and if he was what did that make her six men had died to bring him here resolute she pushed her doubts away ah this line is really interesting because this whole passage is interesting it reminds me how ned and catalan are both alike in their thinking and the way that they orient themselves in accomplishing certain tasks right as well as their doubt in their journeys their

doubt is so parallel ned having just killed lady wondering if he did the wrong thing, and Catelyn right now doubting what she's doing for her family, and later realizing, just like Ned in Sansa, for example, of, oh, we told her there'd be songs, but not like this. Which feels a little on-the-nose right with Marillion later. The guilt they bear at having to act as lord or lady in times like these meaning men dying for them it is immense and it does show yeah and and the way that they shoulder that guilt right and that line of thinking though all where she wonders the cost if they don't fulfill the mission slash if she ends up being wrong about tyrian it It reminds me a little bit of Quentyn's journey, thinking that he can't turn around and go home now. He can't give up on his mission because of all of the people that they've lost on this journey,

what they've gone through, that sort of sunk cost fallacy. And I imagine that it's something we're going to end up seeing of Daenerys too, right? That reluctance to give up, knowing how many gave up their lives to get here and everything that she herself has had to give up damn yeah there's kind of this unbending unyielding quality right uh in not sacrificing like it's too important of a mission to give up it means too much just like you said Catelyn requests Donald to send for Maester Coleman when they reach the keep, as Roderick's wounds on the road have led to him becoming feverish. He could scarcely sit his horse, and Bronn was like to let him die, so she commands Merillion instead to watch over him.

There's a little bit of foreshadowing here, right, as far as A Game of Thrones goes, because this isn't the only time in A Game of Thrones we hear that a man is ill and not able to stay on his horse, right? Specifically, we see this later with Khal Drogo and Dany, so bringing in a little bit more of that leadership quality of that unyielding with Daenerys and Catelyn as well with having their companion in this uh this slow and steady race of battle and building the the tensions of war there's a little bit of that parallel coming in with Khal Drogo there it's just Roderick I mean

it's not that deep but yeah yeah but no there is that and i think that really stands out on a reread that that parallel imagery it kind of highlights the difference culturally between westeros and the dothraki but also coming back to something that you've said before like she's not gonna just let roger say they're they're bffs now they've been through a lot they are ride or die and that's what's literally happening here ride or die she's like's like, Roderick, you're gonna do it. But I also am like, shit, she put Merillion in charge of him and in charge of watching him. And I'm like, I would be really mad if, like, I were already feeling shitty and sick and someone put Merillion in charge of me. I'm like, shit, I would just die.

I would die out of spite instead of enduring that. Yeah, I mean, he'd rather have Bronn watch over him, right? that yeah i mean he'd rather have braun watch over him right in the last chapter with him he literally says like why would any man decide to be a singer and not take up a sword he personally would probably rather braun in this moment i mean there are some singers that i'd be like sure that's fine but like really indefinitely definitely not i mean if i'm dying you know come on i guess but again just let me die maybe donnell hesitates before he answers and then donnell tells her that liza commanded maester coleman to remain at the eerie at all times for lord robert but a septent the gate contend to

the wounded oh big red flag right big red flag right here she's yes that's like a uh-oh what do you mean the maester can't come to me i fucking came all the way into the ear catalan has much more faith in a maester right than a septant's prayers and she's about to say as much but then she gets a look at the large battlements ahead of them and the stony mountainside surrounding them yes and catlin would prefer the maester's healing to the septon's prayers because catlin unlike liza is not an anti-vaxxer yeah she believes in science apparently bro yes she does it's poetry and motion as they finally make it to the top a knight rides out to meet them

his horse is armored in grey but his cloak ripples the blue and red of Riverrun with a shiny black golden obsidian fish pinning the cloak to his shoulder who would pass the bloody gate calls Brendan Tully calls Sir Brendan Tully.

Excuse me. It's almost very rude there for a second. And Donald Wainwood announces them. The knight of the gate lifted his visor. I thought the lady looked familiar. You are far from home, little cat. And you, uncle, she said, smiling despite all she had been through bah his smoky voice takes her back two decades to being a child at river run

brendan her uncle says his home is at the back of the erie and catalan tells, Your home is in my heart. It was so smooth. That was so sweet, Kat. It was just so sweet and heartfelt, and it's so apparent that as much as Liza has fallen from grace right later, Brendan still sees something good in both of these girls, something worth protecting, and especially Liza here, where Hoster was emotionally distant in

many aspects to his children busying himself with rule brendan was always there to try to bring what little fairness and equality and justice he could to their silly petty problems and games and provided a fair adult perspective to them and they needed that outlet right they didn't have another parent as they grew up after minissa passed they didn't have that parent right to to balance out things and they needed that perspective where liza probably felt very isolated with hoster especially as catalan kind of took most of that attention it's likely Brynden made her and Catelyn and Edmure feel so safe and not judged throughout the years and that's a very special connection yeah and he even you know extends that same affection right to Littlefinger as a child

it sounds like and and not just to the Tully children it really shows what a what a compassionate adult Uncle Brendan is and it also proves on that same note that nothing could have saved Littlefinger from being the way he is yeah only he could have saved himself and he's like no but what if I chose this but what about a 13 year old girl I don't remember where it was. I was reading and someone was like, yo, this man's just so stuck on the opinion of a 13-year-old girl. Yeah, I just can't imagine it, personally, as a person of Littlefinger's age. I aim a little higher.

I'm just on the other end of the movie 13 going on 30. It's not right. it's pretty fucked up sigh well Catelyn asks her uncle to remove his helm so that she can look on his face and he says the years haven't improved it but he takes it off all the same and Cat thinks he lied

his features are lined and weathered and the auburn tully hair has turned to ash, but his smile and deep blue eyes are the same. He asks if Liza knew that they were coming, and she explains that there is no time, and she fears that they ride before the storm. Donald asks for their entrance to the Vale, and the Wainwoods, who are ever the ones for ceremony. And Brynden allows it. I too am one for ceremony house wayne woods so i get it no i i love this again calling out that the wayne woods are ceremonial we see them moving forward and honestly they seem very traditional right we meet anya and she is a little I don't know if uptight's the word just more severe than some of the characters that we've met you know not as jolly not like a hardy lady she's

very serious because she has a lot of serious work to do as a lady of the veil and I don't know if any of you have heard our the winds of winter Elaine episode with some really fun, fun spoiler episode. Basically, if you have read that sample chapter from The Winds of Winter, I don't know, I'm going to talk about The Winds of Winter for a hot second. If you don't want to hear about it, skip ahead for a minute. We don't get complaints about it. So, I mean, if you want me to not talk about it. I actually assume that most of our listeners right have probably read more winds of winter chapters than i have so at this point i mean i just want to say like it i'm not one to ever say

it's been a while but it's definitely been a while so if you're like me you've consumed them if you're like eliana you're crazy but if you're like me you've consumed them i'm a little crazy but also i'm kind of saving myself now for like i think it'll be fun for our listeners when it's like my first reactions kind of well in the winds of winter elaine we learn that there is going to be a tournament thrown sanza has actually kind of given the theme of the tournament, which is the winged knights, coming from some of the fun Vale lore that George has written lots about. And she wants to choose a Kingsguard, basically, a King of Mountain and Vale type guard of eight winged knights. Similar to what you'd see for a king with his Kingsguard, right?

But for the Lord of the eerie and sansa definitely in these chapters is erecting something ceremonial here she has a giant's lance that is made of sugar right a giant sugar spun giant's lance and of course little finger brings in lemons for lemon cakes for her to keep her you know as an accomplice without her really realizing realizing yeah anyways uh but more traditions are happening like this becomes very much so a big tournament built on veil traditions and ceremony regarding the lord of the veil and kind of like hyping up gassing up robert aaron lord of the veil hype squad and this sort of tradition and ceremony it's obvious that little fingers interest in the veil

is shallow right and monetary aligned because sansa in the little time and her education as a child stories from her family and her time in the veil under little fingers to religion observing as robert's playmate here she has learned so much of what these people might appreciate to see at attorney and what might not turn them off and actually make them go ah a beautiful tournament in the vale today with all sorts of fun vale activities going on that's the sort of tradition the wayne woods will love being honored by having a knight protect robert aaron of their, kind of amping that up, especially in the face of Harry the

Heir, which is so big. That Elaine planned all these minute events and details in this tourney based on these traditions, it should be meaningful, I think, especially to the likes of Nestor and Bronzio and Royce as well. Yeah, I mean, they're a proud people,

right? And as you you said they're proud of their traditions and and the ceremonies so that's i think that's a great call out and it also speaks back to i mean something that catelyn has done well too right in her time in the north that though she was felt alone and uncomfortable right among these new people and in a different culture we see throughout all of her chapters so far how she's come to even though some of it like still feels weird to her in some ways feel at home and has accepted and absorbed those cultures those beliefs those values and she believes some of the omens right more than ned does yeah well we get this line that gives us a peek into some of that ceremony in the name of robert aaron lord of

the eerie defender of the veil true warden of the east i bid you enter freely and charge you to keep his peace sir brendan replied come true warden of the east i just wanted to emphasize it again re-emphasize true warden of the east again they all look over at tyrian and did they catch that subtweet this time catlin rides behind him beneath the bloody gate which we get this little tidbit of the history where a dozen armies had dashed themselves to pieces in the age of heroes the mountains open up beyond to green fields

blue skies and snow-capped mountains it's like the Alps probably exactly it's very fairytale and beautiful and full of life. I think that's so apparent. So much life in these chapters. Oh, Agat. Oh, a Game of Thrones. You were so vivid, so beautiful, and all the color's gone now, and everything's bloody and sad.

Well, there's still colors. The colors are just red. Terrible and red. colors are just red. Terrible and red. I love that both Tyrion and Cat's chapters in this little realm of happenstance, they open up with lines alluding

to history. For Catelyn, she gets to showcase the age of heroes, letting George work up to his great Vale world building that he so obviously loves over the next few books. Tyrion has the reference as well in his chapter that he opens up his chapter to a pre-dawn chill. As I mentioned before during our little spill of

the winds of winter, the Vale's history is extremely rich and built up in George's outer works as well as in the story moving ahead. Sansa brings us right back into its icy halls in A Storm of Swords and A Feast for Crows, but it seems George had a huge boom of inspiration with the veil after this book. Most of his So Spake Martins from 1998 to 2003 are rich with ideas that he seems to be pondering. Some are prompted by questions, some are just kind of his little headcanon of his world as he works on it, right? So in 2000, we had a few things pop up from So Spank Martins. Ronzio and Royce wants to join Rob's campaign, or wanted to join Rob's campaign, pardon me.

And this is from February, before the fall when the book came out. Some of the Vale Lords would be disposed to Ned or to be supportive of the Starks but some of them would be more disposed to choose House Baratheon interesting others however want no part of the war and some even favor the other contenders also interesting so those were just a few ideas from 2000 that George had on how he was expanding the Vale in the books coming out or in a storm of swords to come and he also said in 2002 which i just think is so important to reiterate that little finger is lord of the riverlands and de facto in charge of the eerie now but we need to remember for all his power little finger has no army so big facts big facts rolling around that shows george was definitely starting to work

on this story more and more from 1998 through 2002 he would have been finalizing a storm of swords during the time of those so his plans for politicking in the veil had been fleshed out and it seems he was really waiting for the right time to bring a POV back into the fold, via Sansa, for example. We'll talk a bit later and bring back Ronald Arryn into this, but some of the implications in Fire and Blood and the World of Ice and Fire are really interesting compared to what we know here. It's interesting to note the story of Ronald Arryn was not really published or talked about until the World of Ice and Fire. And as of May 2005, George actually didn't really have a story figured out for Ron L. Arryn. He basically said nothing happened to the Kings of the Mountain.

They just became the Lords of the Vale and became normal House Arryn when the Targaryens came. When the Targaryens came. But as of July 2007. He did answer a question. On how the king of mountain and vale. Came to bend the knees to the Targs. This was put forth by Elio Garcia. Actually and he said. Keep reading.

Which implies he was inspired. To get some new backstory going. Right around there. 2005 nothing. But 2007 it began. By at shy con 7 george read a bit of what he was working on with ronald aaron's backstory of him begging his mother to let him fly with the senya and her dragon and the rest was history of ice and fire and its world and uh i think it's an interesting progression that 2005 nada but by 2013 he was cooking so exciting to see him play with that sandbox yeah and i think there's a few more

that you point out might have grown in the telling when it comes to the veil um that you're gonna talk about later this episode but i think that's that's so interesting because you know just seeing the veil now in this chapter it feels really it feels really thought out and fleshed out so that there's more that gets built into it especially i he probably had to think about it more because it's going to be more important for the plot later yeah which you know is part of like you know that first look that we get of the veil of air and it's in this morning light they've got rich black soil right wide moving rivers hundreds of lakes that shine like mirrors and they've got a lot of wheat they've got a lot of

corn barley growing in the fields and the biggest pumpkins and fruit known to westeros and that rich imagery of all this food and abundance in the Vale, we've talked about it a bit in those Sansa chapters, but it really highlights how much they withheld from the realm during the war in terms of these resources and food. There's a line in there that it's enough to rival Highgarden, so it really, again, highlights how pivotal they're going to be to the later story. Kat and her crew start in the west end of the valley,

and they must follow along to the bottomlands two miles below. It gets narrow, it's about a half a day ride, and above them and the valley floor looms a giant slant, which is a mountain that even the other mountains look up to. And of course, the ghostly waterfowl of Alyssa's Tears cascades down the lance. And, you know, many people have pointed out many times before Alyssa's Tears and how it intersects with Kat's story. We're not going to rehash that right now. We will talk about it more at another time. But notably, I think, is that the mountain, that giant's lance, the head of the mountain is lost.

And I wonder if it could be a double meaning with the mountain, a.k.a. Gregor Clegane, losing his head, but also coming back to the sigil of House Baelish, right, being just the head of a stone giant. about gregor as much there uh with the loss of his head and of course there are all those sorts of fun theories of what what could really be under there what if it's not his head but what if they have another head what if it's dario it's you it's dario me it's me these are all surprises that it could be i mean truly i don't know that i've ever actually heard both of those as a suggestion. I mean, you heard it here first, but it comes to be canon in... None of us know. But I do think there's something to be said of Littlefinger, right? Of House Baelish's sigil being the stone giant and the giant's lance lingering over the eerie just waiting to fall right uh

i i find that fascinating imagery especially with liza and he worms his way in over time into the veil and john gives him spots and spots and boosts him up and then it's beautiful really good good work eliana the higher i'm glad you times the harder he'll fall hopefully oh keep going little finger not that much more though like stop stop a little more stop building your career we talked about this recently uh no more jobs no more jobs stop getting a job we're new people now new views we'll circle back to this employment discussion later, but you know, the jobs are for people like Rickon, okay? The veil feels so

truly magical, right? Besides this whole scary giant slants thing. It does feel magical, but I hate to disappoint everyone because George has said magic was not used to build it. It is just a normal, natural hard work. Hard hard slow work and natural

resources making it beautiful george said this back in 2010 at assi con 4 and we'll go through all the bits of the veil right in this chapter we get to travel through all of it i have a fantastic diagram put together in ms paint i don't know, maybe I'll release it as patron content. It's on Discord right now. It's beautiful. I worked very hard on it. It's part of the artistic process while working on the podcast. So I spent like two and a half hours making a great, several

dimensional MS Paint veil. You all have to see it. But we're gonna start at the Bloody Gate, take a stroll down the valley get to the gates of the moon hop a mule start winding up the giant's lance and then get to the way castles snow stone sky finally we're gonna hop in a winch ride up with some turnips and get to the castle with its seven narrow kind of congregated together towers we are it's going to be a whole

thing and i mean you know in a way the slow natural beauty that's kind of magic of its own the magic yeah like like you said coming upon a fairy tale castle in the woods out of nowhere it appears out of nowhere amidst mountains and brush and shrubbery and all of a sudden wow, look at this castle. Where did this come from? It's amazing. Brendan slows to point out the eerie

to Kat while on his horse and she surveys it herself, seeing those seven towers that Ned had told her about which are described like white daggers thrust into the belly of the sky interesting it is a little heavy-handed huh uh white dagger red wedding when of course seven towers right like the gods they were raised to worship and the gods the eerie did as well well when when the andals took over but real talk

white dagger red wedding it's total little stabs of foreshadowing happening in this chapter it feels notable she killed a man back in the last tyrian chapter right here stabbing is on her mind i can't stop thinking about anchorman when they're like Brick killed a man with a trident Catelyn killed a man with a trident back there that's on the mind though right that she just stabbed a man so that language of white daggers thrust into the belly of the sky feels

really really on the nose and it's interesting because coming here leads her farther down the perilous road this so reads as foreshadowing for the grief we're going to experience together in a storm of swords. And it also brings back the memories for Rob and John, right? He thrust his longsword through her son's heart and twisted. Although Catelyn and John aren't exactly friendly connected, their arcs have so many connections,

and this reminds me absolutely of john's stabbing as well john fell to his knees he found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free in the cold night air the wound was smoking lots of stabbing going on in these books in connection to catalan and of course there's the brilliant cinematic parallel to the show, the originator of all of this content, where Arya Stark is stabbed in Bravo. Oh, I'm so, so sorry. Wrong podcast. Anyways. Yeah, I mean, like,

who knows how that's going to be adapted into these books, right? But great discussion on the imagery of the daggers. Stab. Stabby stab. it does feel prominent i'm like why are they stabbing and thrust upward yeah into a belly nonetheless there is a lot of stabbing in the story i'm sure we'll see much more i am too it's not like that's the book series or anything whatever brendan says that they'll be at the mountain by evenfall but it'll take another day to reach the castle rogic speaks up as well mentioning well you know he can't really go much further without just dying rogic's having a hard time understandably and cat is like

yes understandably excuses him on this and says that they can rest here and donald agrees i want to be donald being like yeah fuck that i'm staying down here uh but caitlin and tyrian will go on to the eyrie with the blackfish her party besides roderick uh has dwindled down to bron willis wode and marillion marillion strides forward to beg to come with them to the castle and Catlin in her head is like, you know what, fuck it. Braver men have died and somehow this guy survived this journey so you may as well come along

with them. I will say, Marillion in his quest for adventure, right, because she sees a spark in him, a determination it's maybe also a little bit like Quentin, who's going to be our next POV, hoping to live like a song and Marillion though doesn't realize that his song

isn't going to be heroic, it's going to be a sad one as he's hung out to dry though maybe Catelyn would be pleased to learn that Marillion is hung out to dry for her daughter though, I don't know it is connected, she probably wouldn't, she'd probably feel guilty but it's connected.

It is. No, it is a connection. We'll dive into this actually more in a minute here. It's interesting, the whole idea of the green boy from the Vale, or the green boy going to the Vale, Merillion, is going to be a different guy on the other side of this

and then he's going to be dead. It's real different when you're dead. Real different people. Catelyn knows that one eventually. That she do. Well, Catelyn does herself in here because then after she says yes, fine, you can come. Bronn is like

I'll come too. She's like, ah, fuck. She may not have reached the veil without bron so she's like great sure you're courageous you have a sword but you also have a major attitude problem and she doesn't really love that she doesn't also like the sudden companionship he has with tyrian that feels like a power imbalance don't like that so she says as you wish noting bron didn't really ask her permission he just kind of said he was coming he was like oh nope i will be there i find this interesting in a way because as you just mentioned cat doesn't know the future like we do and what happens with merillion

and that she basically led merillion to the eerie led him to the water to drink we've talked a little bit about cat's kind of glass ceiling with class consciousness right and being raised in the society and nourished in it and her belief being that it would always provide for a woman her of her stature if she sacrificed to it she did what she was told right so it should provide. She's definitely more likely to be distrustful of Bronn in this situation. After having dealt with, you know, the assassin and the cat's paw dagger, Bronn is a sellsword who would switch his sword at the sound of a good coin drop, as he recently has done. Especially in the face of that assassination,

she's got to be feeling weary of men that can wield that kind of power physically we the rereader have foreknowledge that merillion is bad bron also bad but in like a roguish i guess if you stand him whatever way uh he's not great but he's not as bad as merillion in some of his shitty moments. Here, Cat finds Marillion, this clean, pompous singer, a less scary choice than Bronn, who is this gruff, mean, possibly murderous sellsword. Which, from a skin-deep level, and as a person who has to worry about being preyed on by stronger people in this world, I would probably have a similar thought. If I was next to Marillion or Bronn,'d be like i can handle that one braun don't know don't know if i could take that one but merillion i have a shot interestingly enough we have the parallel of sansa just a few chapters

ago being taken back from her beautiful golden day of magic at a tourney where actually it ends in bloodshed and a veil guy of young veil knight does die but she ends up with sandor being taken back to her chambers by him who was a gruff man with a vulgar mouth who would kill a kid if you paid him enough sansan has learns to trust him in some aspects and learns from him right and learns kind of to uh be able to mask some of the painful situations at king's landing because of him and because of his own experiences cadeline however would choose the singer as we learn later we know when sansa gets there she's very disillusioned with songs uh when merlion attempts to assault her she gets lucky in the end that she gets out of it but she already was disillusioned with him and his

attitude so it's interesting that aria later as well she she befriends jack and hagar who is also kind of you know a little rough around the edges so to speak a little odd little off the beaten path maybe not the high road the low road right uh it's interesting that the start girls take a chance on these gruff people and aria too later with sandor and kind of get to know them and find uses for them this kind of limits cat in these ways you know and not being able to take a chance on the sellsword. Absolutely, and we'll probably talk a little bit more about Bronn's role next chapter, but maybe it was good for her. Maybe it was good for her that Tyrion

won that. All things considered. I mean, you can't keep up with that competitive pay. That's true. I mean, he's only, I mean, if there's anyone who's doing great in his career, literally Bronn. Literally, that man got a job and is excelling at it. Sir Willis Wode and Roderick stay behind with the septon and their horses, and Donnel vows to send birds ahead to announce their entrance.

Fresh mounts come from the stables, and they set off once more. Catelyn rides behind her uncle, behind her uncle then braun tyrian marillion and six of brendan's men once they are out of earshot brendan asks her to explain this whole like coming storm of hers and she tells the tale of liza's letter brand's fall the dagger littlefinger and tyrian lannister and honestly how didn't she just hand them and she's like here just read the first five chapters uncle brendan god he listens and had always listened to anyone and everyone except for lord hoster his younger brother by five years when caitlin was eight she remembered them quarreling and hoster had called brindan the black goat of the tully flock which laughing brindan had corrected he is the black fish and so he took that as his emblem from that day forward I do love the uh the older sibling younger sibling dynamic and in some ways how

Brendan tries in this chapter to get Kat to understand you know like you don't understand how your younger sister's feeling younger siblings change you know I don't have as we know no siblings on this podcast only child cast but i imagine i imagine yeah i imagine that's something that he's he's thinking of as well yes and i can't help but think about our cohort episodes over on our patreon special episodes we talked about a lot about the Black Goat, right? So for some religious believe in the seven gods, new gods people, damn, that's gotta be a big insult.

Black Goat of the Tully Flock, excuse me? That's heavy for some Catholics to go saying that. It is. It is quite heavy. And I mean, that's an intense God, you know, for people to just be throwing around. So no wonder there's bad blood between the two brothers. But there's clearly some love.

Thankfully, that sibling war was ended when Catelyn and Lysa were both wed. Brynden announced that he would be leaving Revrand to serve Lysa and her husband. And Lord Hoster had not uttered his brother's name since. Damn. It's cold yeah nonetheless during all those years of catalan's girlhood it had been brinden the blackfish to whom lord hoster's children had run with their tears and tails when father was too busy and mother too ill cat liza admiran, even Peter. Their father's ward, he had listened to them all patiently as he listened now, laughing at their triumphs, sympathizing with their childish misfortunes. After she tells her story, Brindon is silent. He finally says that they must tell her father.

Riverrun lies in the Lannister's path. Exactly the fear that Catelyn had in the last chapter, right? She says she'll ask Maester Coleman to send a bird when they reach the Eyrie, and actually several birds, because she also has commands to raise Ned's banners. Brynden reveals the mood in the Vale has been angry. Jon was very loved, and when King Robert named Jaime Lannister Warden of the East, as mentioned earlier, it was a pretty big insult. So the true warden,

you know, the Arryns, they held that role for 300 years almost. It is an enormous insult. Which I will say, now that I think about it, it goes to show that Robert didn't really mean anything as an insult when he gave Stannis anything. He was just like, I don't know, whatever, fine.

Fuck it. Agreed. You know what, in in ck2 when you play ck2 you straight up can like play the agot mod and you can assign lords and ladies to be your shit you're like you're cupbearer you're this i don't know you're this like i don't know what i'm doing in that game and that's what i imagine robert's doing yeah robert actually he is like i don't know what i'm doing in this game probably also thinks with the term game how do i get the cheat codes yeah and it's interesting the the sentiment within the veil right now because you know that they cannot all say for sure that john was murdered is part of what is keeping the veil just on the edge of peaceful and not violent because i imagine you know that those who suspect foul play inside right they're as angry as the people of doran when their beloved prince oberyn died right we saw

how furious they were and the people of dorne could say for sure right because everyone kind of knew and there were a lot of witnesses that Oberyn was murdered I mean granted he went into it of his own volition but whatever and Dorne had just barely kept what was going on in Dorne from bubbling over so I'm sure that if it were known that Jon had been murdered and allegedly by the Lannisters right not not Lysa but Lysa there's no way Lysa would have been able to keep it together especially not as a Tully not as their actual like not as an actual person

of house Aaron and it's obvious that Lysa was getting close to just like saying fuck it all let's move somewhere else don't even have to see these bitches ever again my son who needs him? We can make another.

Let's just leave him here and go, Petey. You know, like Petey Pablo. Let's go east. Let's get over there to Essos, you know? I could just see her saying, fuck it all. We don't even need to be lords and ladies. And she was getting to that level of where Littlefinger was like, oh, you are a big problem.

Like, you are a big problem like you were a big problem to my master 40 chess plan and that alone would have pushed the lords over the edge right i mean we don't really see her getting to rule the lords or see a lot of the way she acts around more than the lords in the next few chapters uh it's unfortunately a pretty swift demise for her in asos when we come back to her right like it's like uh you get a couple chapters we don't really get her holding court making a lot of decisions and we don't see a lot of these politics until feast when peter installs himself and is like hello i'm the boss now and i run things and that to an extent is like he was making business trips on the weekend

beforehand right he was already kind of starting to stir the pot but we just don't get to see that and i think that there's a certain amount of grieving that the veil has been denied right kind of like with cat not getting the bones for a little bit of ned and when she does get the bones and sends them north and now the bones have still not gone home uh that theme of being denied grieving and denied justice and the liege seeming to hesitate in the face of what is obviously grievously just like insulting and like spitting on the graves of these people that fought for this land and for doran it's something out of obvious reasons why uh as a reader but with liza it becomes befuddling in this right like this is when you're starting to realize something is up something is very very up yeah absolutely

especially because people are like well what the fuck is she doing in the eerie then we need a lord who got a child and we don't trust her to run things like which which we'll get into in a bit and even worse we get this reveal that she had commanded everyone to call him this like that when brindan opened and said the true warden of the east that is because liysa had commanded it. So we do get that first kind of feel of any man that must say they're the true. But no one is fooled at this, right? She's not the only one who thinks Jon's death was foul play. No one's going to say the M word.

But everyone's like, yeah, that guy, he was, it rhymes with shmurdered. He was done for. Yeah. And it's a huge, huge insult. Like, Ned argued with Robert about this. As you said, like, Robert was like, no, it'll be fine. It's not a problem. But, like, they named this kid after you.

This kid is named Robert after Robert Baratheon, not Robin. His nickname, Sweet Robin, that is a nickname. That is not his name. Yeah, and it was a really interesting choice for George to make it Robert after other Robert in these book adaptations. Oh my god. Truly it is, though, because you see Rob, who is likely named more after Robert as well,

and his success as a king building a coalition in rebellion for justice, right? You know, those beautiful parallels we'll get into eventually of the rebellion. And for sweet Robin, I mean, he's going to build himself up into a fit by noon today. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it's really strong, right? That his name, as you said, he's named after the king, he's named after Robert. Robert doesn't do anything.

He doesn't do anything for, in a way, right? This kid is, in a way, his brother. Yeah. And, fails him. I mean, Robert fails a lot of kids, though. Yeah, I mean, this is just, add another one to the pile. Yeah, what's one more? What's one more

bastard child against? No, I'm just kidding. And, you know, that is the frosting on the cake, right? That's what he comes to last. Brendan is like, listen, there's a lot you're not thinking about, and he's trying to feed it to

her softly like Kat do you see what I'm saying things are whack right now things are really whack things are out out of tune uh the stars are not aligning in the eerie and he says he comes to the boy and he actually calls it the boy so for a a moment, I'm sure Catelyn had to turn, you know, for a moment, I'm sure she's like, excuse me, the boy, what boy? He means Robert Arryn, of course. I find this so interesting, just the language of it, especially because in A Clash of Kings, George kind of uses the boy, and in A Game of Thrones, he uses it to reference the bastards. Not always Jon, for Catelyn, when she hears the boy, it a game of thrones he uses it to reference the bastards not always john for catalan when she hears the boy it's about john however it comes up with gendry right uh gendry

is called the boy throughout the first novel to ned before he's given a name and later for edrick when they're taking away his identity to lessen the impending sacrifice of him stannis refers to him as the boy as well. So this is interesting because we have Catelyn stepping upon Maia Stone in just a bit. It does turn out good in the end, as we'll discuss. It does have a resolution.

It starts off a little tense, but I don't know. Maybe Cat could have come to terms with Jon's existence down the road after taking this journey if she had gone home. I don't know about that. Let me be optimistic and let me think about her going home, okay?

Yeah, going home. Just let me have it. Well, of course, when they talk about the boy, as you said, they are talking about Lord Robert, six years old, sickly, and weeps when you take his dolls away. This is John Aaron's true-born heir. I kind of wonder if Brynden is using the term the boy in the same way that others,

you were talking about the way other people use the term as a way to distance himself from Robert, feel a little less affectionate, because some are saying that Robert is too weak to rule. Like the high steward Nestor Royce, who ruled while Jon was in King's Landing for 14 years. And you know, he's not the only Robert I would say is too weak to rule. But anyways, some are saying that Lysa must marry again and soon. And Catelyn should have expected that, of course, because Lysa's young and the veil does make a handsome wedding gift.

Brynden says that, you know, Lysa says she's open to taking a husband as long as she finds a man who suits her but Liza's already rejected Lord Nestor and a dozen others Catlin says that Brendan well you of all people can't fault her for wanting to wait because you're unmarried

she doesn't say but she's thinking it and he responds that he doesn't fault her but he also feels that liza is playing at courtship and enjoying the sport and he thinks that liza maybe intends to rule herself until her boy is old enough to be lord in truth ah but maybe there's a bird chirping in her ear you just don't realize 40 chess she's waiting for that 40 chirping her ear chirping in her pussy oh my god a woman can rule as wisely as a man catalan said the right woman can her uncle said

with a sideways glance make no mistake cat liza is not you he is not wrong there but something about this line really stands out on read through it reminds me a bit of Queen Alysanne in Fire and Blood right before the second quarrel when she said to Jaehaerys a ruler needs a good head and a true heart

a cock is not essential if your grace truly believes that women lack the wit to rule plainly you have no further need of me it fits well especially with some of the beats in sansa's arc and her connection and entrance in the veil as she learns its lords and players as well better than its recent rulers even it just feels so significant right the right woman can the right woman can encapsulate so much of this story and of what our friend Scott was

saying earlier during the email that we read about Ariane, Asha, Brienne, Cersei, Daenerys, their struggles in leading as women, right? And Dany and Kat obviously really lead that in the first book. What does the right woman actually mean, right? The right woman leading? Is it the same as saying the female perspective i don't know who were the right men who ruled in a song of ice and fire right uh who were right anise magor artist aaron baylor uh olf the white who who was a good ruler and what is that scale for that that's what i'd like to

understand and i know not that uh this is all just tangential this is just so representative though of the the female leaders we see and their struggles in this story and kind of these walls they come up against because of these limitations i don't think that's tangential at all right i think that comes to a large part of what's at the heart of these books, especially as the story progresses. And I agree with everything that you're saying here in terms of, you know, what, well, whatully's credit you know i think he would cast judgment on any man who was unfit to rule as well as we can see from how he's describing robert aaron but i do think that that line is loaded when you're saying that like you're only making the qualifier that the right woman can rule as wisely as any man and it seems as though it's saying that a woman must be exceptional to be fit to rule where men such as the ones that you listed just now, right, they don't need

to be wise, right, they don't need to be right, they just have the right. And what Kat said was true, without alterations or any clarifications from Brendan. A woman can rule as wisely as any man. As men are often unwise, same as women, same as any person, people come in many different layers of wisdom, many different layers of cleverness even, and even the right women are denied the ability to rule in preference for unwise, wrong wrong men as we see almost happen to rohan weber as we're going to see happen to i mean likely denarius yeah there is something and i'm not sure if it's just the the onslaught of the southern politics right most of our southern female povs or the insights that we receive most heavily come from players like Catalin, later Cersei, and of course in Targaryen history, that closer lens of Rhaenyra I think that Rhaenyra has quite a few parallels with Catelyn as we go through this

she reminds me of her a bit there are a couple Lysa parallels as well you can even see the split of both of them in her attending their fathers as heir for Rhaenyra and cat dead children rage and vengeance growing within them at it. Obviously, there's an analog George is playing with for Rhaenyra that we see a lot of Cersei and Daenerys split between her, but I think there's merit in some of these recurring themes of being groomed

as heir and denied birthright. For Catelyn, it's not really being denied birthright so much as it becomes her birth's right, her children's right. Right? Right. Yeah. Right, right? Right. denied birthright so much as it becomes her birth's right her children's right right right yeah right right right i don't know even even in some aspects right we see a lot of that with danny as well and with her loss of her son which before losing her son and as we see from this alternate idea of seeing him burning down cities in the house of the undying and the vision i mean she

would have become a cadillan character to him through the years right to lead him in his journey and getting back his throne or like diana targaryen with damon likely was the damon blackfire but even as we get to the tower we see some of those parallels for rhaenyra and liza the years have been unkind as justice consumes them right i do really hate george's whole shtick right of the whole make her ugly or fat or hairy or ugly woman ugly personality not to harp on it whatever but just get a new one george get a new one it's fine i'll get over it i don't know maybe this is just how george writes women yeah i mean it is something that he's i wonder if he started veering away from it it does seem so

a little but i'm not sure entirely but it's something he really does like to lean on and we pointed it out especially with solis but you know brendan hesitates and then tells caitlin he fears she may not find her sister as helpful as she thinks she'll be because the woman who came back is not the same girl who went south when her husband was named hand and while lord aaron was kind and dutiful their marriage was born from politics not love and caitlin's like whoa hashtag not all marriages uh because her ending had been much happier than liza's which you know for now for now uh her still has the potential to go a lot worse but for liza two of her children were born stillborn and she's had twice as many miscarriages and her husband's death but turns out that one was actually like really exciting for her but

we don't know that yet that was a solution that one she was like yes anyway team liza but the other parts i will say besides the other parts about liza's life that again we'll get into more uh with this and probably some of the other books and chapters especially when we encounter Hoster going through what Liza did isn't that easy that's at the very least during her marriage

just during the time of her marriage seven pregnancies in the past 15 years and though I'm sure that Liza has mixed feelings on wanting to be a mother to john aaron's children it's what's expected of her as a wife right as to a high lord and she did perhaps want a child to the extent of at least fulfilling that duty and i think that's really stressful trying to try to pop out a kid and sons because it's expected of you as opposed to even

like you just both of it is hard both of it is hard right and we see that in her protectiveness of sweet robin right that there's more to it than just duty she clearly loves this child in some twisted way and unfortunately it comes off as this sheltering possessiveness of him and you know i i just think of this because like i'm at a stage where i have friends you know i have contemporaries who are going through this right where they're going through multiple miscarriages right uh maybe some of them having stillbirths and it's not easy emotionally or physically like these are emotionally devastating for people and the toll that it takes physically, like all of it mentally

like I can't and to do it repeatedly repeatedly and feeling obligated to do it and then feeling like a failure as a wife, right? If you can't do it I think there's a lot

of uh we see a lot of that humanity seep through for Cersei throughout A Clash of Kings with Sansa. Not great humanity, but still humanity of her kind of implying It's understandable. I'd be bitter about her. It is. Yeah, but of having nothing

of being isolated, alone being beaten, being hurt and that the only thing you had was this piece of joy of yourself that you got to look at that yes it held a little bit of what you hated within it but to to be able to hold that bundle of just like of pure just love whether or not it's a healthy relationship you have with those bundles later on and whether or not you see them as an extension of yourself, which may or may not be happy and healthy, but I digress.

Like, Cersei and what she says to Sansa and what she implies is something here that we see for Lysa, who is so isolated and so alone, and Brynden even continues to say that, like, Lysa was so upset and isolated and scared about her husband's death, again, we knew that there was something else going on there, Liza was so upset and isolated and scared about her husband's death,

again, we knew that there was something else going on there, that she fled King's Landing in the night with her son. And he makes it really dramatic. He says, snatching him from the lion's mouth, and now you've brought the lion to her door. Yeah. Catelyn's like, but in chains. And her uncle glances back

and reminds her well yeah but also he has an axe on his saddle and a dirk in his belt and he's got his own soul sword it's like but not chains she's like damn it I was really hoping no one was gonna realize that

you're very clever uncle no it is unfair right because we open on the chapter and she literally thinks i cannot believe this motherfucker got unchained somehow he got himself out of his chains now he has weapons yeah yeah he helped save my life for a hot second but it all got away from her it's all out of her control which is kind of the gist of everything moving forward it uh it all snowballs right everything snowballs and gets away from her and chains her no she says he is her prisoner and liza will want him to answer for his crimes as her lord husband was murdered by the Lannisters. Brynden gave her a weary smile.

I hope you are right, child. He sighed in tones that said she was wrong. Yeah. The sun was to the west by the time that the slope starts to flatten, and as the path straightens, Catelyn sees wildflowers and grass.

The going becomes faster on the valley floor, and we get some really gorgeous prose that we're not gonna not talk about. We have this line, cantering through feridun, greenwoods, and sleepy little hamlets, past orchards and golden wheat fields, splashing across a dozen sunlit streams.

He's just having fun, and I really like that for George. Good for you. Sunlit streams. It's also notable, my name actually means Verdant. I didn't know that. I actually never knew that. Well, now you know. Now you know.

Brynden sends a standard bearer ahead, and they reach the gates of the moon at full dark lord nestor was expecting them and at first all cattle and seas are stones and trees in the dark but then she sees the fire of torches and towers and windows above them the lights like orange eyes staring down at her from above there's that staring eye motif once more right we had the weirwood eyes and the lights and king's landing and now the lights in the eerie she watches the higher more distant tears of glowing windows and follows up to the moon where she sees falcons soaring a flash of light beneath the sky. She gets a little vertigo, and she hears Marillion whisper,

The Eerie, in awe. It is beautiful. It's a beautiful moment. It's one of those rare moments we actually see George lay it on thick with the house sigil in the wild. He does that less and less in the books as going forward. I'm sure he was like, ooh, maybe it's a little cheesy all right but how could you not have some falcons flying at the top it's kind of funny but it is also like like my high school team was the wild cats but there were no wild cats in the town i grew up in

you know yeah absolutely settle down with your sigils westos the wild cats you mean like the stray cat over on the other end of the street those are cute though feral cats my favorite team cats the musical Tyrian cat Tyrian Lannister however

he's not impressed at any of this he's not impressed at your high school Chloe and he's not impressed at any of this. He's not impressed at your high school, Chloe. And he's not impressed at the Eyrie. He comments that, yeah, I guess the Arons must not like company if they're going to climb the mountain in the dark. And he's like, if we're going to do that, just kill me now. I'm not going to go. And, of course, this is just baby town Follix because they are, of course, going to spend the night here, reveals Brynden. And they're going to just ride the mules the next day.

It's going to be fine. And Catelyn tells him, you know, it's fine. There are steps carved into the mountain as well. She learned about it from Ned, who talked about his youth with Jon, Arryn, and Robert often. The mules will take them to the way to Castle Sky. And beyond that, they would just climb by foot. Unless, you know, you want to take a basket up to the Eyrie located in the mountain above and i'm just like oh interesting so catelyn just really never visited her sister in the veil i guess if she saw her it would just be in king's landing well this is what's

weird because it's kind of a weird timeline she says later she hasn't seen her for five years so that implies that maybe when Sweet Robin was born she went to King's Landing to visit Liza and see the baby maybe with someone as a companion but then Eddard acts like he hasn't seen her and the kids in a while

but also then says he hasn't been to King's Landing in how long yeah it's weird maybe they went to Winterf fell which is also possible huh maybe i don't know i think it's just one of those details that george pruned with his shears he's like oh that went nowhere whoops uh but it's an interesting detail you know george forgot the iron fleet is what i'm saying well tyrian thinks that's funny also Tyrion laughs and says well actually he thinks that the idea of him

in a basket is funny not you sorry liar we're going to the north Tyrion says would that I were a pumpkin alas my lord father would no doubt be most chagrined if his son of Lannister went to his fate like a load of turnips. If you ascend on foot, I fear I must do the same.

We Lannisters have a certain pride. You know, Tyrion's getting a little smug, right? He's a little, he's feeling a little good because he has Bronn. But also he's getting a little anxious too because he's like, I only have brawn and i'm about to be in a land of hurt uh his imprisonment in the sky cells humbles him but wrongful wrongful he is just cracking them left and right you know you gotta love to see it there would be no fun and no conflict in these chapters without him you have to have our favorite instigator here otherwise you don't have to hand it to him on a normal day folks like you do not have to hand it to him

but there is that little instigator inside of me that loves his chaos and his whole like sarcastic remarks you know having the gall to just be out there and say whatever you want and he doesn't really have much to lose as he's going to highlight later he's like this is a fun trip hope I survive it cause no one knows where I am or what's gonna happen to me especially me least of all me I least of all know what's gonna happen to me

hope I don't have to you know fun trip to the eerie hope I don't have to wait until next fall as in fall from the moon door yeah and even catelyn's like i don't know what's gonna happen to this man sorry to that no one knows total wild card now i know that i like tyrian's smugness here but you know who doesn't catelyn she snaps dude she's like he is being pretty pretty out there he's being a little

sarcastic and she snaps and she's like oh that's funny because i would call it arrogance avarice and a lust for power yeah tyrian doesn't deny any of this he responds well okay just to be clear my brother is arrogant my father has avarice my sister Cersei lusts for power with her every waking breath. And he's like, but I am an innocent little lamb. And he even offers to bleed. I also handle anxiety with humor, so I get it, Tyrion. Yeah, it's so funny because it's he's not wrong i mean he's like actually that's cersei and jamie that you're talking about i'm perfect i have done nothing wrong at this moment which is true

it is cersei and jamie they they uh they hurt bran bro this is all interrupted by the drawbridge it comes down the portcullis is drawn up and they're led across to meet nester the high steward of the veil the keeper of the gates of the moon surrounded by knights who bows clumsily as he addresses lady stark catalan knew him by reputation only previously he's a lesser branch of house royce bronzio's cousin but a formidable lord in his own right and i do think it's interesting george had not come up with miranda yet here there's no mention of anything else for nester she does not show up until a storm of swords she is mentioned that is interesting great gardening yes ketlyn begs the hospitality of Nestor's roof and he returns that his roof is hers

but your sister wants to see you at once so the rest of the party can stay and be sent at first light and he's like you gotta send the darkness Katlin yeah I thought this really stuck out significantly almost

like underworld kind of imagery with the eerie rite of the darkness and that she must scale the impregnable eerie in the dark and utter dark and come up into the lit castle in the night. It felt apt, felt underworld-y, entering a whole new land it is it is and i will say though like it was a shitty it was a shitty request on caitlin's part like my understanding again only child podcast here but my understanding of sibling relationships tells me that caitlin could have been like yo that bitch has got to wait like i'm not i'm not going up there i would have told her to wait oh yeah it's like an obvious dig like a very petty thing a sister would do to another like oh no you'll need to come especially because she gets there and they're like oh let me go wake Liza yeah and it like sucks because I guess

she can't really refuse because then she's like well then Nessar is gonna get in trouble, I guess. But it's like, I would have told her to wait. Yeah. Anyway. Well, a new character appears, a wiry girl of 17 or 18, who says the mules know the way. It's Maya Stone.

She has dark cropped hair. She wears riding leathers with light ring mail. She bows to Catelyn more gracefully than Nestor, by the way, and promises no harm will come to her if she takes the mule. Yeah, she says, I've made the dark climb a hundred times. Michael says my father must have been a goat. She sounded so cocky that Catelyn had to smile. Do you have a name, child?

Maya Stone, if it please you, my lady, the girl said. It did not please her. It was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard's name in the Vale, as Snow was in the North. And Flowers in Highgarden, in each of the Seven Kingdoms kingdoms custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own catalan had nothing against this girl but suddenly she could not help but think of ned's bastard on the wall and the thought made her angry and guilty both at once she struggled to find words for a reply first all, thank you for that woven in info dump, George,

about the bachelor names. But I will say, I can't help but remark on this again, right? Like that call out about Jon. Because I know that people turn to and they want to justify and excuse Catelyn's feelings towards Jon as fearfulness for her

children's inheritance. But as we discussed in Cat 2, it is more more than that i don't think we can reduce it just to that to do so would be to remove some of the complexity from these characters and this encounter shows us that as john shows up like he's just here living in cat's head rent free for a completely unrelated bastard i mean there there is a relation it is thematic and catelyn wouldn't know this of course it's related in that both are royal bastards so interesting that once more they are tied together as ned ties john's thoughts of john with a royal bastard um thoughts of rhaegar with a royal bastard but he sees bara robert's infant daughter but anyways cat feels prejudiced for a

moment towards this like poor innocent girl and like forgets her courtesy entirely leading to an awkward silence it's actually very quite rude like for all that cat and tyrian joke of the lannister's pride like here we see a glimpse of cat's own stubborn pride but she does swallow it to do what must be done same as she's done for years uh with ned's secrets that he won't share and that she doesn't know about yeah she's definitely you know reluctance here is key she does not want to but she will do it to get the night over with and you know as we've said in previous episodes for cat the seat is strong is such a pivotal theme for a game of thrones for everything you know it anchors it and going forward for edrick uh and for what is one bastard child you

know against the realm thousands of people that are going to die it becomes even more important and it becomes kind of the crux of the story when the reveal eventually comes that you know there was a secret baby it was not agan blackfire whatever you want to call him whoever this pretender is it was not him there was a secret targaryen baby and it was john and his birth was know, coded in sacrifice and love and sadness. And it's interesting that even here in Catalin's chapters, he's between the lines, between the pages, not just as her worry at the bastard in her head and thinking of him irrationally and guilty. She feels guilty. I think that's a big step for her.

I think that is. I think a lot of what happens here, the resolution with her and Maya, that is a big step for her I think a lot of what happens here the resolution with her and Maya that is a big step I am serious that maybe if she had come home after her journey she could have maybe changed a little you know maybe she could have tried it would have hurt but maybe she could have I don't know that it would have been enormous but the guilt does show

at the very least when Ned reproaches her in the chapter it shows that katlin knew it was wrong and i mean obviously maya grows on her right like my grows on everyone um yeah and that is the thing that i think is like another big step for her that at least she's thinking uh she does come to a resolution on maya that you know like oh sweet girl and also like she reminds her of sansa even by the end of oh you're sweet and innocent and you're just a girl and and she feels guilty about how she acts

towards her and that she can't change her ways and i think that's a step without having ned reproach her i think that's a really big step yeah and i mean we can see why right because nester fills the silence he's like maya is clever maya is going to keep you safe and that she hasn't failed him yet so caitlin says you know sure she will put herself in my stone's hands and charges nester to keep a close guard on her prisoner tyrian who is as sardonic as ever and charges them to bring the prisoner wine and a crisped capon before he dies of hunger adding that a girl would be, but it's probably too much to ask. Bronn thinks this is hilarious, laughs aloud. Nestor ignores his banter.

I will say, if I were Tyrion, I don't think I would ask for a girl, but I would shoot my shot in asking for the wine and for the crisped capon. Yeah. I would do it. Hell yeah. You might die.

Yeah, you want a good meal. Hey, better men have died going to the Vale. I'm just saying. Yeah. You know? Nestor has Tyrion seen to a tower cell, and he's given meat and mead so he doesn't go hungry or thirsty. Catelyn takes leave of her uncle,

following Maia through the castle and to two mules. She mounts hearse, and they head through the postern gate. Maia says some find it easier to close their eyes on the trip, and she warns her don't hold too tight to the mule if you get frightened or dizzy. They don't like that. Catelyn, of course, says, I was born a Tully and wed to a Stark. I do not frighten easy.

I love that, especially with later lines in the Vale of Sansa taking strength from being a Tully and strength from being a Stark. It just feels so nice to come back to. Catelyn relying, though, here on her identity, right, on her names in the face of being exhausted and of the experiences she has had in embracing those names and being those names, right, in being a Tully, in being a stark and the things that she has done and that she has given in those scared of the howling wolf winds here and she's exhausted and and of course she's paired with this john snow maya stone cosplayer right uh having to be with a dark brunette haired wayfish slim bastard who's light on their feet i mean i'm just saying maya has to be uh in the dark probably looks like john maybe i mean like white is slim yeah wearing leathers john is a little uh a little

willowy yeah climbing high structures oh bran oh i was thinking john in the wall the wall yeah yeah it definitely feels like she's uh stuck on a trip to the wall with another of him but that does change right like because she she asks maya they start to get close eventually she first she's like are we gonna light a torch and maya's like oh you really don't know anything the moon and the stars are strong enough michael keeps saying that i have the eyes of an owl we're gonna be fine lady stark catalan's like all right i'll budge who's michael come on girl spill it michael is bookshelf stud michael red bookshelf fort stud uh michael redfort she explains is who she's in love with he squires for lynn corbray they would wed when he became a knight next year the year after katelyn thinks she sounded so like sansa so happy and innocent with her dreams katelyn smiled but the smile was

sadness the redforts were an old name in the she knew, with the blood of the First Men in their veins. His love she might be, but no Redford would ever wed a bastard. Poor Maya, because later on, as we know, Horton forces Michael to marry a who? I mean,

Horton forces Michael to marry Ysilla Royce, and to make a royal enough match for the Vale to go moving on with their lives. The irony, of course, yada yada yada, if only they knew the bastard girls under their roof were actually royals.

I digress. I do want to point out the Redforts and the Royces were on the same side back in the Battle of the Seven Stars, which was introduced in 2014's the world of ice and fire so george who has been stewing on this veil stuff and how to resolve it since 2005 in the driving license acquired book a feast for crows yes it's 16 years 2011's adobada yeah dude it bad. But this is a great echo

that the Redforts and Royces were actually kind of on the same side, but not a great echo is that later Redfort in the Battle of the Seven Stars was slayed by Torgold Talet. So, Michael Redfort, maybe you should have gone with

Maya Stone, because I don't know. I don't know. Stay safe, Michael. I'm just kidding. Love and respect to Michael Redfort, but fuck Horton. Yeah, I mean, like, again, as you said, love and respect to Michael Redfort. Obviously Maya Stone has got her heart broken,

but she's a smart girl. I think she'll move on. That's what smart, wise people do. They move on. I hope so. I i hope so i do hope so i mean she's got her mules she's she's gonna be happy and i mean there's clearly other people interested in her yeah and catalan again she guesses correctly because in this moment she thinks his family will probably marry him to a corbray a waynewood or a royce or some daughter of some great outside house of the Vale.

And if he laid with this girl, she thinks it would be on the wrong side of the sheet. This aside, they go up the mountain, and it's easier than she hoped. Maya and the mules are great at their jobs, and she fights sleep, dozing off for a moment right as they arrive to the

first way castle on their way, Stone. The gate swings open, and the first way castle on their way, Stone. The gate swings open and the portly knight greets Maya, offering them meat and onions hot from the spit. And this is great. They eat standing in the yard and she's so hungry she doesn't give a damn. Hot juices run down her hands and her cheeks, dripping into her cloak, but she doesn't care. Yeah, typical Catelyn, but actually though. Also, sounds amazing.

Yeah, it sounds so good right now. I'm hungry again. Give me the kebabs! The bale kebabs! We're so close. But that sounds good. The onions. Oh god, just grabbing a little pearl onion. Amazing.

They pop back up on their mules and off they trot down a steeper worn trail maya ends up stopping to move rocks and break up logs several times noting to cat you don't want your mule to break a leg up here yeah so i want to point out like we don't actually have a number or an estimate for how high the entirety of the area is like including all three of the sections what this trek that caitlin has gone through is like the area is 600 feet up from i think like the stable located in the sky third of this fucking structure and like i know that a lot of the men in a song of ice and fire within the story are like yo caitlin stark is fit but i want you to know that like c of the men in A Song of Ice and Fire within the story are like, yo, Catelyn Stark is fit.

But I want you to know that, like, Catelyn Stark really is fit. All right. Like, she went on this, like, enormous day-long journey. She survived the High Road, killed a man, and she is not taking a break. She's not been allowed to take a break and has to climb all the way up this high-ass castle. And she's like, yeah, on the mules, which also is its own kind of physical labor. And then she has to go on the steps herself

to climb up them and get her ass up all the way in the dark and the cold. I'm telling you all, Catelyn Stark is fit. She could crush our heads in between her thighs. And just the strength and the stamina of this woman to be doing this trip right now. I mean, so is Maya Stone.

Maya Stone's also very strong. Oh yeah, thick as hell. This is nothing for her. Those thighs, they have to be muscled. But like, that's the thing, you have to grip. Porcelain, ivory, steel, that's what it meant Sansa had to get her mule muscles.

Wow. The trees become sparser after porcelain ivory steel. That's what it meant Sansa had to get her mule muscles. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow. The trees become sparser after this. The winds blow harder, and once in a while, she can even see a huge space below. Ugh. Stone. Then the gates of the moon. Snow is

smaller than stone, one tower nestled into the giant's lance, commanding the stone stair above the way castle. Any enemy would have to fight his way up from stone, step by step. Stone's commander was a pockmarked, anxious young knight who offers food and fire, but they decline because they have to keep going. They get fresh mules, Katz is white and named Whitey and very sure of foot. Maya warns, though, that he will kick if he doesn't like her. Thankfully, he likes her well enough.

No kicking. And they continue. There's also no ice. They're super grateful for that. And Maya regales Katz with a story. A story her mom once told her. Snow had begun here in this spot in the Vale, is why it's called snow the way castle it's always white above and the ice never melted maya doesn't remember seeing snow and ice this far down

the mountain though until now she thinks maybe once it was that way this language is so interesting the snow starting to drift lower and lower in the eerie and even later as we see them uh kind of escape from the eerie in the winter interesting it's that global climate change creeping down the others here's winter it's coming it is though it is and and that change that's going on i think that is interesting and that it gets called out and catelyn notes it too right because she thinks that maya is just so young wondering if she herself was ever like that maya had lived half her life in the summer and that's all she knew winter is coming we have this line of winter is coming she wanted to tell her she almost said them perhaps she was becoming

a stark at last and i just love that cat's first instinct is to say this to maya because in many ways yeah i mean cat has absorbed a lot of northern culture and values and also you know how she can't tell like if she was also like that she probably was from our understanding right just shows like not even that like she thinks of like how maya grew up half in summer probably spent half her life in summer. It makes you think of that, like, springtime of youth, right? Those kinds of things, as Catelyn is faster than she would know entering the winter of her life because she's going to die soon. Jesus.

That is another parallel that Catelyn has, yes. Jesus. That is another parallel that Catlin has, yes. The wind hobbles above like a wolf in the waste, then goes out, luring them into complacency against the bright stars and horned moon. Cat finds it easier to look up than down, and they eventually reach a high saddle between two spires of rock. Maya dismounts and says it's better to lead the mules across the 20-foot-long path due to the scary winds. Maya steps across first, and Kat is paralyzed. She goes second,

though fear is caught in her jaw. She could feel the emptiness, the vast black gulfs of air that yawned around her. She stopped, trembling, afraid to move. The wind screamed at her and wrenched her cloak, trying to pull her over the edge. Catelyn edged her foot backward, the most timid of steps, but the mule was behind her, and she could not retreat. I am going to die here, she thought.

She could feel cold sweat trickling down her back. That's a mood. Maya, though, brings Catelyn out of her fear, calling and asking if she's well, and Catelyn says she cannot do this. Maya says she can, and tells her, look at how wide the path is. Catelyn can't move, though.

Maya comes back to help her across. They go step by step together onto the next way castle. Sky, a high, crescent shaped wall of unmortared stone into the mountain and i i mean this is the moment right like the way that maya just builds up cat's confidence to make it across like the way that she's just so gentle about it she's like you've got it you're doing it it just wins my heart every time like maya stone deserves the world she's the embodiment of like what sansa is thinking of when she thinks of the term bastard brave that's i mean also obviously john but also maya yeah she absolutely is and even in the face of catalan who

at first was cold and maybe not as uh kind and warm you know and meeting her due to her bastardy and that she still shows her utter kindness and helps her and comes back for her and isn't gonna let her stand there and think she's gonna die amazing what grace like that's that's just like incredible grace on her part yes the snow crowns which are beautiful begin here their stones rimmed with frost and spears of ice, dawn breaking in the east. The guards let them through. Maya mentions the stables and barracks are at this castle and that they'll go into the mountain now

and climb through a sort of chimney with a stone ladder and then they'll be there in about an hour. The Eyrie couldn't be more than 600 feet above them, a small white honeycomb. Catelyn remembers the discussion of the baskets that bring produce and feed up and down, and she's like, uh, can we get that service?

Because Tyrion Lannister? That guy? The Lannisters might have their pride, but I have sense. The Tullys have their sense. I'll ride with turnips. I'm exhausted. And, again, at each turn, gonna call it out,

Catelyn delivers what needs to be done over what is proper. Yeah, it's apparent. Yeah, over and over. She gets maligned as being too proper of a lady, but for her, proper is what gets shit done. She killed a man with a trident. Move over, Howland Reed.

Catelyn Stark is Ned Stark's new best friend. Stocky and silver-haired, cloaked in Arryn garb, Ser Vardis Egan escorts Catelyn out of her basket, and Maester Coleman, trailing behind him, they have sent word to Liza, who was to be awakened the moment Cat arrived. I hope she had a good night's rest, Catlin said with a certain bite in her tone that seemed to go unnoticed.

Veil humor there, by the way. A certain bite? Ah? Like the bite? Ah? The body of water? Ah? I want to reiterate i again i wouldn't have done with cat linden i would have gone up like that's cat's sense of family and duty maybe not honor but that's family and duty for you yeah especially knowing that she didn't wait up too like if at

the least liza had waited up for her and she didn't even know what awaited her on the other end, okay? Like, I just want to put it out there that we know what awaits her, and it's not worth it. It's not worth it! She should have slept instead! God. As she goes up, she lands. They escort her up a spiral stair. The Eyrie is small compared to other castles. It's seven white towers, no stables, no smithies, no kennels, but

they have a granary that's as large as Winterfell. I love this because it gets built on later with them leaving the Eyrie, right, for the winter because some of the resources are actually inaccessible during the colder, harsh months of the winter, and they're useless for them outside of what they bring from the

granary, so I find that really interesting. This seems deserted, though, in this castle, Catelyn thinks as she goes through the halls, and she ends up in her sister's solar. Liza is clad in bedrobes, her auburn hair tumbling down her bare shoulders, and a maid is brushing out her hair. She rises, greeting her sweet sister and wrapping her arms around Kat, murmuring, oh how long it has been, how long. It's been five years, five cruel years for Liza. Liza was two years younger, but now she looked older than Katalin.

Shorter than her, she's thick of body, pale, puffy of face with pale watery blue eyes hasn't she been punished enough george yeah i will say now that i think about it well i guess robert rob sweet robin was born then but like if catlin's change if liza's changed a lot since catlin saw her last did liza have like a bunch of those a majority of those miscarriages in Silberth during those five years. Hmm. Maybe. Which is a lot for that time span. It could be.

I don't know. How lovely and full of hope she had been in the sept at Riverrun. Yet all that remained of that girl was thick auburn hair caitlin tells liza that she looks well but tired and liza sends everyone away to speak to caitlin alone and as soon as they leave her face changes instantly like the sun disappearing behind a cloud and i will point out it's because liza is not the sun but a moon she's inconstant she's mercurial

changing from moment to moment oh that's the sun and the moon with catelyn and liza instead of aria and sansa yeah yeah but like in a dark horrible mirror a bit sad yeah liza immediately asks if catelyn has lost her mind to drag the eerie into her quarrels with the Lannisters, and Catelyn's like, hold on, hold on. She's like, excuse me, who dragged whom, whomst, dragged whomst into what? Because what

the fuck? You sent me a coded-ass letter. Like, I had to get out my fucking cereal box ring. And then I remembered that we had this language, and she's like, you said that they murdered your husband okay and liza's like no she meant to warn her not to for catlin to go fight them and i'm like this is a bullshit because yeah sure maybe cat doesn't know her sister anymore but it does make you think like did liza just really not know her sister that much right because like

okay first of all we all know this is obviously a lie because the letter could never have been meant to keep Kat out of the war right it draw it's meant to draw the Starks out because as we see Catelyn's first instinct upon reading the letter isn't like oh no let's not do anything it's very incendiary right like her first instinct upon reading it is like ned you have to go to king's landing you got to get to the bottom of this this is ridiculous it's only after bran's fall that catlin changes her mind and realizes everything's different and sees that danger more clearly and is like we can't go but that next threat the dagger and the cat's paw right it pushes cat back into action

it brings her back into the fold of of the politicking in westeros and i think it really highlights how liza and catelyn differ because when liza senses danger towards her family she goes on the defensive we see that she retreats she flees that's what she did in king's landing even though you know technically she's the danger but whatever uh when kat senses danger towards her family though she moves forward not back we see it here and we'll see it in how differently the two women react to the deaths of their husbands again ignoring the part where liza murders hers but whatever liza refuses to get involved in the war Liza refuses to get involved in the war while Catelyn and her son marshal forces immediately to free Ned when he's taken captive and then for independence upon Ned's death it's markedly different at this moment but these are small steps that point us uh into the direction that

Cat's going to take that path of vengeance and again that path of action rather than passiveness because cat is a very active character not a passive one that's why she's able to move the story forward and that's again why a lot of the plot is buoyed by her point of view chapters yeah it's so resonant even back to what brendan was saying right of you know you don't know her cadeline these five years and these years in general she had a very different marriage than you there's this broad theme of these old relationships once forged in wartime and what they thought was steel right they thought it was forged steel and it was forged with blood and sword and grief and

weddings. And it turns out that some of these relationships strengthened. Some of it was sheer idiotic luck, right? Ned and Catelyn were lucky. They put in enough work. They were close enough in age and upbringing and values that it worked out just right. Catelyn wasn't sold to a man that was brought up in a whole different generation, on different morals, with different ways of treating their wives, their people, on children. Jon and Lysa didn't bond through their losses from the rebellion, right? Lysa was, again, isolated, alone, easily manipulated from Littlefinger who was there to give her solace. I think there's just so many points being made of

especially for Kat with the progression of Liza and Kat and Littlefinger and Kat and of course Kat and later Walder Frey. As well as looking across the aisle to Ned and Robert, Ned and Littlefinger and of course everyone and the wildcard Joffrey.

The wildcard Joffrey. The wildcard.ffrey. The wild card. Yes. Absolutely. They are interrupted by a small voice, crying, Mother! It's Robert Arryn!

At long last, lord of the Eyrie, true warden of the north, clutching a- East? Oh, sorry. True warden of the North, clutching a- Oh, sorry. True warden of the East. Sorry, I was busy misleading people. I was too worried we were. Clutching a ragged doll, painfully thin and small

for his age. Liza glares daggers at Catelyn and reintroduces Robert to his aunt, Catelyn, and who he thinks that maybe he remembers, and she's like I doubt it, you were less than one years old. Like, whatever. Liar. She doesn't say that.

But, Liza calls him over, fussing with him, and rhetorically asks Catlin, isn't he beautiful and strong? This is such a- I mean, I've seen this scene played out in so many pieces of media. Right? Like, this is like the fighting

sisters having a conversation over the shoulder while nursing a child at the same time and it's so second hand their nature of how like they're doing something in the background she has Robert over her shoulder and she's trying

to do both situations I love it. I think it's a really cool scene that you can just imagine being there and seeing them snip back and forth to each other. And, uh, the, the talking over the shoulder while fussing with him at the same time.

It's really well imaged. George is great here. John knew the seat is strong. He told me His last words. He kept saying Robert's name and he grabbed my arm so hard he left marks. Tell them, the seed is strong. His seed. He wanted everyone to know what a good, strong boy my baby was gonna be.

I don't know, I don't think people really just go around being like, yo, my jizz is so strong. So strong, bro. My semen. I will say, though, for Sweet Robin's sake, though, I do hope that the seed is somewhat strong. I hope that he's strong and he makes it, but as we discussed in Ned's chapters,

Jon Arryn was, of course, talking about the son that he chose, and it's interesting that this exact same hint, right, it's dangled in front of both Catelyn and Ned and that both of them are trapped in this like nightmare noir story. chapter i don't know that i really paid attention to it as much until now but maya being that's true almost exactly parallel to the brothel it's definitely i mean that's a definite that's a great important note yeah yeah the structure the structure jordan the structure the catlin the catlin chapter so far they've all been very well structured the The timing, the structure, did you hear he fucked her? Wise poets have said. Catelyn attempts to open this conversation back up about the Lannisters, but Liza is like,

not in front of the baby. He has a delicate temper. Cat is so annoyed. She's like, he's the Lord of the Eerie, Liza. There's no time for delicacy. Ned thinks is gonna come to war Liza is like again she snaps at her she's like don't scare the boy and the boy Robert peeks at Kat over Liza's shoulder

and he starts to tremble ah this reading of this was so interesting to me because it almost seemed for a moment with how George worded it he wanted us to really think that Liza and the shaking that Sweet Robin has kind of acquired seems to be connected like almost that he looked over his shoulder waited a second stared at Kat and then went here's my fit

uh almost like he's throwing the fit because it's what he's been coaxed and talked into doing constantly like it's a the fit because it's what he's been coaxed and talked into doing constantly. Like it's a behavior that's been reinforced by Liza over time. This is just totally spitballing. It literally is that he looks over his shoulder at Catelyn, then he starts to tremble. And I don't know, given that we come back in one to two years,

I'm guessing that the trauma from his family dying, you know, so young, has definitely had to impact this whole trembling thing. And Sansa does try to help coax him out of this behavior in some ways. And we do see him brave across the bridge with her, right? He gets across the bridge. He holds it together. He does it for her obviously and she talks him up and gases him up uh but yeah maybe maybe liza and john and little finger really did just fuck this kid up with trauma i i mean maybe he will outgrow this i

really think he could i think he could too i mean if you think about it i i just thought about this this is mildly unrelated sweet robin's described like a chihuahua with the shit fuck okay go on i'm intrigued is it wrong just a shaking okay okay he's small and he shakes anyway oh and she does treat him like her little pet oh yeah you're right that's true anyway sweet all that being said but i i think you're right i think that there's something like i think he could grow out of it right with the right and that's that's part of what it seems like people are saying like if lives weren't there and sweet robin were allowed to grow on his own without being coddled

what would he be like and it is some of that nature versus nurture right yeah but i and i'm not saying robert was the right fucking move to sign and keep him in king's landing because look at how robert's kids quote unquote turned out but hopefully not rip in advance to this king of mountain and veil. Okay, lord. Lord of the eerie. Although, right now, shit's getting weird. Liza is comforting him because he's upset, right? With her titty.

Tits out. Tits out. Last chapter, as we coined, was Knives Out, but our friends over at Discord, like our friend rohan has pointed out this is tits out yeah i mean this is this is where we really live up to where you know some of some of what our name our podcast name is riffing oh my god liza liza's out here she's girls gone wild oh yeah she's wild and it is a vision to be holding right it's very graphic

uh young young robert is sucking her nipple eagerly and she's stroking his hair and cadeline is like this kid is five years old rick and would never he's out there getting a job and paying rent no wonder the veil is fucked up right now and restless. Absolutely. She's so confused. She's like, what is happening? Also, why is it happening? And just still has to come back to what is happening.

This is what gets her, though, also. This is my favorite thing. She stabbed a man. Right. She doesn't really think about that at all. She was just doing what she had to do, which is typical Catelyn behavior, right? She's doing what she has to do. And she's, you know, for the first

time, Catelyn suddenly understands. She's like, I see now why the king tried to take Robert away to foster. We were told that it was insidious, but maybe it was benevolent. Yeah, but I don't know i don't know uh well we close out this chapter of course with the passage between liza and cat and sweet robin we're safe here,' Liza was saying, whether to her or to the boy. Catelyn was not sure.

"'Don't be a fool,' Catelyn said. The anger was rising in her. "'No one is safe. If you think hiding here will make the Lannisters forget you, you are sadly mistaken.' Liza covered her boy's ear with her hand. "'Even if they could bring an army through the mountains and past the bloody gate, the Eyrie is impregnable. You saw for yourself no enemy would ever reach us up here.

Catelyn wanted to slap her. Uncle Brynden had tried to warn her, she realized. No castle is impregnable. This one is, Liza insisted. Everyone says so. The only thing is, what am I to do with this imp you have brought me?' "'Is he a bad man?' "'The Lord of the Eerie asked, his mother's breast popping from his mouth,

"'the nipple wet and red. "'A very bad man,' Liza told him as she covered herself. "'But mother won't let him harm my little baby. Make him fly! Robert said eagerly. Liza stroked her son's hair. Perhaps we will, she murmured. Perhaps that is just what we will do.

Okay, I do want to call out... Stop thinking about my big red wet nipple, God. I want to call out... Stop thinking about my big red wet nipple, God. I want to call out that the way this passage and chapter ends, perhaps we will, she murmured, perhaps that is just what we will do, is the same way Catelyn's earlier chapter ends with, and then we will see what we will see. The Tullys just have a flair for the dramatic yeah i don't know if that

was intentional or if that was accidental but it's fun it feels similar right yeah that makes sense for there to be like a similar structure right because george is setting up these these chapters of cats to be very cohesive it's interesting that Kat and Ned are kind of the extreme on their children, right? Like, grow up, Rickon. Get a job. While Liza is quite obviously far too the other way of, like, coddling and get your five-year-old a new oral fixation, maybe.

I'm no sibling specialist, but they just both could take a page or two from each other and meet, not in the middle, but, like, you know, a little off-center. little little off center little off center yeah yeah i agree and you know the situation that robert aaron is in right he's a child lord he's completely unprepared and this is actually i think literally cat in its biggest nightmare for their children and as you called out this is why they're so far on that extreme

side especially because of their own childhoods. And so they're just like, our kids got to be ready now. All of them. And unfortunately, their kids do end up in a similar position, right? We see Bran not much older than Robert Arryn, respectively. Bran's the acting Lord of Winterfell, eventually. Yeah, we kind of see how better prepared they are for that responsibility in some aspects,

but also how ill-prepared they are in those aspects. On reread, calling out the impregnable bits of the veil, of course, an additional euphemism at liza's secret that we'll learn later we did get a hint earlier on in the chapter on the veil's defenses and that you'd have to fight your way up i'm curious to see if that comes back later on in the veil with dragons specifically we did do a bit of talking of the world of Ice and Fire earlier, and there are two major foreshadowing hints that always come to my mind, and I'm always just like, is this George having a sandbox moment, right? Like, we love a sandbox moment for a king, yes? Or is it something

he wants to bring back into the story later, right? Like, are these elements he wants to play with? wants to bring back into the story later right like are these elements he wants to play with i think i found some of them we'll talk about them here but shara erin is known as the flower of the mountain she was queen regent of the kingdom of mountain and veil ruling in name of her son boy king ronald erin during westeros invasion of agen one she bends the knee to visenya who takes ronald for a quick spin on her dragon, and Ronald becomes Warden of the East, the true defender of the Vale, right? Later on in Ronald's life, Rhaenys ends up arranging a betrothal between Ronald and Torrin Stark's daughter to make a peace. Ronald ends up dying a violent death at the hands of his brother, Jonos the Kinslayer, but the line continues through a kinsman. There are tons of plot points

here that we can see kind of remixed and distributed among different plots. I don't know if all of them are things that would be one-to-one parallels or things that are to come, but they just stick out so much to me. Maybe Dany could try to make a peace, right, between the Lord of the Vale when she returns

to Westeros, marrying him into her realm. A marriage between Sansa and Sweet Robin obviously isn't off the table. It's been brought up in the story, but I kind of think it's played out. I don't see it happening again. And listen, let's get crazy if we're speculating. What if Jon ends up taking a Catelyn role as King in the North, right? And is brokering deals with Dany while ending up bending the knee to her? What if Jon ends up taking a Catelyn role as Kang in the North, right? And is brokering deals with Dany while ending up bending the knee to her? What if?

I mean, what if he gambles Arya's hand away? Her fray was last seen as cupbearer for Roose at Harrenhal, and we don't know anything about where he is. So it's presumed Elmer's in the South. He might not be living long. He might be off during, you know during Red Wedding 2.0. It's an idea. It's a concept. Whatever one you want to subscribe to

there, who knows? That is interesting, though, because you pointed out earlier in this episode that there are connections between Catelyn and Jon's storyline, even though obviously not one-to-one, and obviously they are on different sides of their own conflict their own personal conflict mostly on catlin's side but they do

have those things right they're both probably going to be brought back to life so seeing him take on a catlin-esque role in that is interesting yeah and again i don't know if that would actually happen but i could actually see that moving the plot along, right? Arya is quite obviously, we know Arya is not looking to marry anytime soon. She's not really looking to settle down. She's got a little PTSD to deal with and she wants to work on herself for a while. Good for her. Yeah, and her hands will be open at the time, but they won't be john's to give necessarily right that could add a really awkward familial dynamic to the family now that well let's put it out there

now that king john the bastard whether or not we know about his parentage at this point when ari is home uh he decrees that a true-born daughter of house Stark is going to marry someone. That's an interesting tension to add to this family dynamic. And Jonos the Kinslayer kind of stands out here, right? We already have that in the form of the possibility of Sweet Robin dying, or Harry the Air dying, even, in The Wind's Winter. We all know I'm in camp, Sweet Robin lives, let some of these kids live. But it could be kind of a remix on that a remix on for example my superior theorizing that harry will die in the tournament for sweet robin

like that young knight we see in the veil from the veil die in sansa's chapters earlier in the tournament and the older one we see die for cat and Liza's trial soon. Yeah, I do hope, same as you, and I think that this is something that I've changed my mind on over the years, right? I do hope that Sweet Robin lives. I think that it would be interesting if he does. I think that for a long time it just seemed so obvious. Like, it seemed like there was so much going against him. But the idea that he could grow stronger, I think, would fit. going against him but the idea that he could grow stronger i think would fit the idea that people can change is something that fits within the story and to say that a child cannot change right it feels so pessimistic and so against i think the spirit of a song of ice and fire yeah like that's

our time like that's that that's the time to change yeah and i mean like obviously right there's some for whom that time is stolen but it would be nice to have a child that gets that time afforded to them yeah sweet robin's one aria is another right aria and bran and rick and they're all still very young sansa's also still a child honestly they're all children john's a fucking child danny's a child they're all children and i do think there's something in that duality of like the idea of robert having been fostered in king's landing versus taken to the veil and that both of those childhoods as we see from how joffrey was raised both of those childhoods of someone being told they're the true lord the true king and how they turn out and how those parents parented them didn't work well neither of them did neither robert nor liza did a great job here yeah on a different note in terms of the conflict

that we'll see in the later books or the political powers and factions i couldn't help but like think i'm kind of just like are stone snow and sky are these some of the big players that we're gonna get i mean yeah and the winds of winter but mostly probably in a some of the big players that we're gonna get i mean yeah and the winds of winter but mostly probably in a dream of spring based on what we've heard of george saying that danny and tyrian won't meet up until the end of winds i'm thinking like you know stone snow and sky elaine stone john snow and denarii is in the sky with her dragons. No, I actually think you're onto something. And originally I felt it with the stone of Maia Stone, right, in this chapter. But it does feel prominent, especially with the lines about the Eyrie and how it opens up down in the Vale of Arryn and how you'd have to fight your way up.

Eren and how you'd have to fight your way up. You know, there were these leaks back when the bad show was on that said that they were going to retreat during the zombie attack in the bad show. They were going to retreat to the Eyrie. This did not happen in the show. I was excited. I was like,

I don't know how they're going to get there in time, but I love it. Like, are they going to take a quick boat? The Iron Fleet that we forgot about? Weird. Yeah, I don't know. It was a cool leak that didn't love it like are they gonna take a quick boat the iron fleet that we forgot about weird um yeah i don't know it was a cool leak that didn't happen so i'm kind of bummed but that has always been in my mind it's like a interesting thing of taking you know taking people back that way actually it makes absolutely no sense as we see during the winter it's not as inhabitable and they're going south to kind of get to a better place to live during the winter but uh interesting it's a thought yeah if you have dragons anything's possible i guess

that's true i mean that's why it's like shut the fuck up about impregnable you're throwing that word around i don't know that you know what it means in this circumstance right now it's not great yeah well that's a lot to come to the veil that is a lot for our first visit to the veil with catalan our only visit i guess uh a couple chapters of it and then we're on the road it we are we are and you know we've got a lot of things coming up on the road but we took the high road we did not go north and here we are if you want to stay and find out what happens

in the eerie in May please feel free to subscribe to us on social media or let us know what you thought if you have any thoughts you can find us at girlsgonecanon on twitter or shoot us an email

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episode. Yes, to be announced soon. As always, I have been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I have been another one of your hosts, Eliana. We'll see you next time in the Vale with our friend Clint from Learned Hands Podcast.

I had to think about it. I was like, will we be in the veil? Yes, I'm not lying this time. We're not lying. And yes, so this is episode 123. Saying goodbye in 3, 2, 1.