Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 124 — AGOT Catelyn VII featuring Clint of Learned Hands Pod & Laws of Ice and Fire

Episode Date: May 7, 2021

We're putting Tyrion on trial (by combat) with one of the resident Westeros lawyers, Clint of the Learned Hands podcast and the Laws of Ice and Fire blog. But as the trial approaches, evidence begins to surface for maybe some other culprits flouting justice. LINKS Clint's Twitter - https://twitter.com/clintw  Learned Hands Podcast - https://westerosbar.org/  Laws of Ice and Fire - http://www.lawsoficeandfire.com/  Learned Hands twitter - https://twitter.com/LearnedHandsPod  Laws of Ice & Fire twitter - https://twitter.com/WesterosLaw  --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl] Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon Reads A Song Of Ice And Fire Episode 124 Cattle In Seven In A Game Of Thrones of Thrones featuring very special guest Clint from the Learn Hands podcast and Laws of Ice and Fire. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. And yes, you know, we have more than just two hands on today's episode. We are more than just left and right. We are other direction

i always say i wish i had a hand that came out of my stomach like an extendable stomach folding hand and clint is now that hand clamp we're so glad you're here it's all i've ever wanted to be oh yes although that would make finding like sweaters really difficult i think true you could be like apom the pokemon who has like a hand on the end of his tail on the bottom no on the end of his tail or tail yeah that's cool same area yes well clint i know the uh pokemon is not really why we brought you here though we could talk about that too uh you guys might have heard us guest on Learned Hand's 15th episode, Rhaegar's very very horny trial

bonk bonk but Clint has actually written really extensively about the series from a law angle from a law lens about Westeros and the social contract going on in Westerosi society as well as you've done a great legal analysis

of the guest right contract and most of all, Tyrion Lannister's Westerosi criminal record. You've written quite a bit about that. I have, as a matter of fact, and I wrote a little bit about this trial on my blog, Laws of Ice and Fire. God, I want to say it was two and a half years ago. Congratulations. Congratulations. Yeah.

And then in the sort of intervening time, another former guest of yours, Maester Mary and I started the Learned Hands podcast. We're about to drop our 19th full episode. It's been a lot of fun, actually. We have been trying to find find and I think we've been mostly successful in finding like fun law things to talk about in A Song of Ice and Fire. And fun and law are not always synonymous. So it's been it's been great. And so I am really, really happy

to be on the Girls Gone Canon podcast, a podcast that i have been following since the beginning and is one of my absolute favorites i have always when i was growing up i always wanted to be in a riot girl band and i feel like i feel like this is the closest thing i will ever get wow guesting on the girls gone canon podcast well we're really excited to welcome you into the girls gone canon cinematic universe the whole learned hands crew we've collected them all no we're really excited to welcome you into the Girls Gone Canon Cinematic Universe. The whole Learned Hands crew, we've collected them all. No, we're so excited to have you on. This is great. It was a blast coming on for the trial.

And now it's complete. The circle's complete. I love it. Yes. Now you are here to join us. Yeah, the trial episode was like the most fun that we've had. Oh my God. It was a blast.

Recording that was such, especially because I saved a lot of the script for the week of and like i read my parts and i just like had to breeze through some of them with you guys so i got to hear it as you redid it and re-recorded it and it was just hysterical you were hysterical yeah well and both of you really helped take it over the top. Appreciate it. Eliana was ridiculous. I had the easiest part. It was great. I just had to go.

We are so excited to have you here, Clint. Do let everyone know here at the top where they can find you on the internet. Sure. You can find me on Twitter at ClintW or my website at lawsoficeandfire.com or you can find the Learned Hands podcast on any of your podcast platforms. You can also learn more about the podcast at our website, which is westerosbar.org. Yes, it's a fun time.

Everyone should join the Westerosi Bar Association. Yeah. It's cheaper than law school. It's much cheaper. I have learned just as much as I would have learned at law school. I think so. I think so. Same.

That's true. It's the same experience, but legally, I don't think we can say that. But thankfully, you know, Clint and Mary went through it, not us. Bless you. Yeah, don't go to law school. Join the West Jersey Bar Association instead. Maybe it's a step, you know, a gateway drug. Unfortunately, it could be a gateway drug.

Could be. Speaking of gateways, we're going to be entering a couple of different places soon on Patreon. Yeah, I'm so excited for our Patreon episode this month. Next week's episode of Catalan 8, I believe that we are going to announce what free city we're traveling to.

But yes, Eliana and I will be entering gateways to get over to a free city. We're getting slim on them, right? I think we're past the halfway mark or we're close. I think we're past the one-third mark, right? Yeah, for sure. We're for sure past the one-third mark. So this could happen. Our travels could come to an end eventually. Yes, but before you set off on your travels, we do of course have some fun.

Vacation-esque fun before the summer. It is our Patreon Discord brunch slash happy hour. This month we are going to be doing ours in late May and it is going to be on a Sunday May 23rd and this is open to all of our patrons who are on the Discord. $10 and up, Thunder tier and above.

Yeah, we've had a blast doing some reindeer games, right? Playing some Jackbox games. But this month, I think we are going to go with a Song of Ice and Fire potluck slideshow presentation theme. I think we have something cooking, and we will send out a notice to patrons soon on that.

So keep an eye out in your inbox. We've had a blast with those. We've just had fun. And we haven't done a slideshow presentation one in a while. And those are kind of a blast with those. We've just had fun. And we haven't done a slideshow presentation one in a while. And those are kind of a blast. Everyone just puts together a quick presentation on a topic. And if you're into drinking, everyone has a drink. Or if you're snacking or just hanging out or doodling or doing whatever, it's just a really relaxed, fun couple hours.

Unless you're playing Jackbox Games and you're playing Survive the Internet, in which it is not fun and you will get canceled. But it's still fun. You laugh, but you haven't been cancelled by the Girls Gone Canon Discord, Clint. I mean, the night is young. The night is indeed young. Well, and then of course, one more thing. As you all know,

we are not only covering one series here on Girls Gone Canon, we are also covering the His Dark Materials story, universe. So last month's Patreon episode did cover the television series. We talked about the bottle episode that was lost in season two that was never able to be filmed because, you know, as you all know we we live in unprecedented times and by that we mean the entire world like shut down last year i think you were all there for it with us if you've been listening to us for the past 60 episodes you might recall that there is a pandemic still ongoing 60 episodes later yes it happened during the jamie episodes so That's all I know about that. But along with that, there is another book series with His Dark Materials. We are covering those once a month as well.

Uh, it's kind of a sequel prequel sandwich trilogy. We like to call it and LaBelle Sauvage. We are nearing the end of our beautiful trip on the water. So come park the canoe with us. We're going to get, there's some dark stuff ahead in that book. Uh, that book's not young. It's it's the end of that book is a little dark. So we're excited about it and, uh, come check it out before we start up the amber spyglass sometime soon but then that brings us back here to a song of ice and fire and we did have some emails and tweets of note

actually we have two emails this time from the same person our good friend thunderclap messaged us asking what's the best female equipment of sorry ladies, I'm in the Night's Watch? There were some suggestions that Thunderclap volunteered, such as, for example, Sorry Gentlemen, I'm in the Silent Sisters. Sorry Gentlemen, I'm in the Maiden Vault. Sorry Gentlemen, I'm in the Dosh Colleen. Or, Sorry Gentlemen, I'm Craster's wife slash daughter. That was, like, escalating. Worse.

It's hard i like at first i was like ha and then i was like wait a second uh uh hello i'm a dead woman or a mother is a good one am i right because they're all dead i don't know it's fun for a moment like at first i was excited about the i'm in the night's watch slash king's guard but then I was like, oh, but they don't get murdered due to what they present their gender as. And then I remembered Brave Danny Flint, and I was like, this isn't fun anymore for me. So, I don't know. Interesting. They just get murdered for their bad opinions, which, honestly, could be better. Yeah.

Yeah, those are all really good points i was like the only one i could come up with is like i'm in the knots watch am i right ah did not a cast watch oh who are they who are they oh no i've heard of them well thunderclap had another email though that i liked. I was really excited about this one. I didn't answer right away and I actually wanted to email you back right away, Thunderclap, but I was saving it. I was, you know, edging till this moment.

God. Oh God, this pandemic has to end. My jokes get worse as it goes on uh chloe's like what is happening help this is a cry for help i can i can change that language if we want but maybe we should just keep it for authenticity yeah you should anyway thunderclap sent us an email and i'm going to just summarize it of this uh tradition that happens in the veil come winter where mord was explaining you know there's a there's an oxen that gets butchered and then they get thrown out you know onto like the floor of the veil for the val for

the falcons to eat right and then in the springtime when they all come back, they'll be like, okay, is the oxen still there? If the oxen froze and didn't spoil during the winter, which as we all know is very long, then they'll take that oxen and then they'll roast it and eat it as part of the spring feast. And Thunderclap wants to know if you would eat the oxen. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's just like, that's not even a question. Like, unequivocally, yes, I would eat the oxen and i yeah yeah exactly yeah it's just like that's not even a

question like unequivocally yes i would eat it i bet that's the best oxen you'll ever have that's some dry aged meat when you think about it yeah throw some barbecue sauce on that have a little oxtail oh my god we don't even have to put barbecue sauce you know like you just got to trim out the but that's the thing you know that thing is packed with salt right like you know they like you just got to trim out the... But that's the thing, you know that thing is packed with salt, right? Like you know they took salt and they just like caked it all over it, so you know you scrape that beautiful dry rub of salt off and that crap's beautiful.

Are you saying that they salted it for the falcons? Wow. Those birds are eating so well. Yeah, we should eat the falcons too. They're really into cholesterol and sodium, too they're really into cholesterol and sodium they're salty it's not a question I would eat the oxen that's it

oh absolutely I can't help who I am sustainably grown the good way in the veil probably not sustainably and you also know that the meat is tenderized because it was thrown out foot yeah door exactly that's listen if you're hungry and you don't get

to live up beautifully high in the veil like all the great lords maybe maybe it's all right i need some meat some street meat some veil street meat okay is what i'm trying to say it sounds like you can only have it once every few years. It's a delicacy for sure. Yeah. Families from all around gather for this day. Class disparity. Well, that brings us to, of course, our lightning round, which is where we check in real quick

on the chapters we missed between Catelyn VI and Catelyn VII in A Game of Thrones. Yes. So, to start us off, we have Eddard IX. Littlefinger! Leads Eddard part of the way to the truth, meeting an infant named Barra,

but his discovery is interrupted by Jaime Lannister, who is set to avenge his brother's capture. Boo. Also boo. A lot of booing there. Daenerys IV. The khalasar enters Faes Dothrak, and Daenerys tries to signal peace to her brother Viserys,

who wants none of the horse lord's peace. Bran V. After learning of Jaime's attack, Bran is captured as hostage by six free folk. Rob and Theon save the day, leaving only one survivor, the Occupational

Safety and Health Administration. I was thinking Osha. Osha's 11. Oh, sorry. You just had Osha. Sorry. I was just reading it as I know how. It's a long joke. That's the subtext, I believe.

It's a joke. Tyrion V, a chapter also full of jokes. Captive in the sky cells, Tyrion manages to convince Lysa Arryn he deserves a trial by combat. Eddard X. Eddard faces another trial in his dreams of seven against three at a tower long torn down. When he wakes, he's reinstated as Robert's hand, perhaps a different nightmare. God, I love that chapter.

I know, right? That leads us to the chapter that we're on today which is catalan seven of the game of thrones birds have flown and the lannisters gather their armies at casterly rock uncle brindan resigns his post to join the war and tyrian lannister walks free at his trial braun having killed sir vardus egan rip sir vardus egan you tried it's so unfair i do feel bad about it he did actually try he's actually like the most noble dude there we're gonna talk about that for sure like he's the least asshole ish there yeah catelyn watches the sky break outside her window the pale mists rising off of alssa's tears. Catelyn could feel the faint touch of spray

on her face. Alyssa Arryn had seen her husband, her brothers, all her children slain, and yet in life she had never shed a tear. So in death the gods had decreed she would know no rest until her weeping watered the black earth of the Vale, where the menanger beginning to this chapter. Yes. So beautiful. And very subtle, subtle foreshadowing here subtle as a t-rex foreshadowing by by george i um i i love that um i also love that the that catalan's eventual story is sort of an inversion of alissa's like catalan loses her whole family and she basically cries her eyes out for the entire rest of her life but once she's dead

she will never shed another tear just blood like lots and lots of blood uh but no tears interesting that's a good point yeah it's uh it's pretty it's pretty hard especially the silenced woman kind of motif that we chatted about up top with Thunderclap's email, you know, bringing Catelyn all about to that. There's also that reference of pale mists rising in this. And I do want to point out, we've mentioned before, Bloodraven is usually about when pale mists are rising. So it makes you think, is Bloodraven watching the veil? Who knows? Who knows?

Is it Bloodraven? No one knows. Could be. I could see that. Could be. Here's our random question. so it makes you think is blood raven watching the veil who knows who knows is it blood raven no one knows it could be i could see that could be here's a random question do you think it's pronounced alissa or eliza in order to have a symmetry with liza erin i don't know not that it matters in my head it's always alissa but i don't know it's also so unfair right because then that brings up such a bigger conversation we'd have to have about lee's lice liza lisa i mean what do you really want here eliana i know and we we've had the conversation and our conversation was just to use all of the pronunciations yeah use what your heart feels that'll fix it covers all the bases what does your heart say roy detrice would probably

pronounce it like alisa something or something really weird i like that though sounds good it's kind of fantastical you know fits in well it's got good the room vibes speaking of crying you know things being torn apart um so a lot of the language here right it's the veil it's the veil of, which is reminiscent of that biblical term, right? Sometimes it's translated as the valley of tears, but I'm pretty sure a veil and a valley are kind of like the same thing, but one's fancier. Regarding the tribulations of life left behind after one goes to heaven. Interestingly, it's also a phrase that comes up amongst the many things that they go through. The four in

harlan ellison's short story i have no mouth and i must scream they go through it something that is called the veil of tears along with like i don't know the slough of despot or something like that a bunch of places and the short story just like harlan ellison is pretty racist and sexist and it's an interesting short story though as a lot of his stuff is and um you know he's one of the authors that influenced george and i i kind of think you know could the veil of tears be somewhat reminiscent of how cat's life is going to turn out clint you were talking about the the irony right the sort of inverse of cat's life compared to alssa Arryn and you know Kat's life right like Alyssa's is full of sorrows at the moment and as you said she cries a lot about it but in the context of

Allison's short story the narrator ends up like being I'm gonna just spoil the whole story all right it's not that long if people want to read it you can if you don't like again who fucking cares I mean there are people who care but whatever uh anyways the narrator ends up being like the very last human being alive and basically loses a lot of the things that you would identify with someone being human like very physically changed and it kind of reminds me a little of maybe cat's story and ending and i'm going to just read literally the end of this short story to all of you about that loss of humanity and her voice outwardly dumbly i shamble about a thing that could never have been known as human a thing whose shape is so alien a travesty that humanity becomes more obscene for the vague resemblance inwardly alone here living under the land under

the sea in the belly of am, whom we created because our time was badly spent, and we must have known unconsciously that he could do it better. At least the four of them are safe, at last. Am will be the matter for that. It makes me a little happier. And yet, Am has won. Simply, he has taken his revenge. I have no mouth, and I must scream. And Catelyn no longer has a voice. She don't speak, but she remembers. And she can't cry. She can't even express, as you said, the pain.

There's no way for her to express any of that. Right. I mean, I love that it's that that representation the afterlife of the pain and the struggles that she endured during life too right because she wasn't able to scream at the tears that happened to her as a young woman through adults of the things she had no control of either you know and like that idea of things manifesting through powers and through afterlife and through that religious reborn right of her being reborn in the flames as this fire white character uh you have to forge that right that has to be forged through the

pain that you endured honestly even in this chapter there are moments that like if i were catelyn i would scream like yeah some that's when yeah morton wade would like i would scream in those moments yeah if that man spoke to me if he breathed at me, I understand that, too. Yeah. The worst. We come back to our best friend, Sir Roger Cassell. He tells Catelyn the rest of it in the letter. The Kingslayer masses a host at Casterly Rock, and Edmure has sent riders to demand Tywin proclaim his intent.

mass as a host at casterly rock and edmure has sent riders to demand taiwan proclaim his intent lord vance and piper guard the past below the golden tooth and vow not to yield talia land without land is for blood so now we're getting a little bit of like caitlin hearing the price of that gamble that she took and hoping that it doesn't take a worse turn because of her sister yeah that's a great point that that had not to me, that, like, Catlin would be thinking that she did this. I think, you know, of course, we know that Tywin was probably going to march on the Riverlands eventually, regardless of what Catlin did. But Tywin saw that and used it as casus belli, and Cat probably doesn't know that. So she, like you point point out she probably feels extra responsible for this and must be extra terrified for her family and and her people yeah and the

guilt definitely like goes through to this next moment because she you know it's the letter came from edmure not from her father and that is a big red flag to her because Edmure to her is not the Lord of Riverrun. And she asks what her Lord father intends, but the messages make no mention of him. And she kind of immediately is like, shit, is he sick? Because that's the only reason he wouldn't be sending mail. Yeah, and he is sick, right? Like she correctly guesses, just showing how astute Catelyn is in general. I also love the bit about Edmure, like sort of pretending he knows what he's doing which is very cute and Edmure and I love him

I want to squeeze his cheeks it is very sweet but it's like the ultimate sweet Edmure move like he's obviously thinking of his people and he doesn't want to cause bloodshed but also he's sending five men to go like cautiously peek it out you know and be like hey tywin what you doing like uh-oh yeah tywin's tywin's like the mean old man you don't want to step on his lawn and he's gonna have armies standing on that lawn and now you're sending your best friends your bffs to go check in yeah i don't know it's an edmure move he's coming to like age during a difficult time as a lot of them did right like it's a difficult time and you're gonna make mistakes and it sucks because like he's taking on a new job and honestly the way that works is you gotta fake it till you make it

all right well he is faking it till he makes it that is for sure and that gets him in some trouble as we know later uh like and then continually later and it's funny though because the tollies like both of these siblings especially for catalan like you said this is an instance of catalan being right and whether you're a catalan fan or a catalan hater the bummer is that the more that catalan is right the less fun it gets that she's right you know like it's fun at first you're a catalan fan or a catalan hater the bummer is that the more that catalan is right the less fun it gets that she's right you know like it's fun at first you're like oh she was right oh she was right and then you're like oh no she was right uh and that's gonna start it's already starting here you know and she knows in her heart of hearts that she's right about some of these

intuitive things that she thinks right of her father being sick maybe of uh the war like she did already say like this is probably going to instigate lord tywin i gotta be on the lookout and here it is and she feels guilty and she knows in her heart of hearts she sped up that timeline just a little bit at the same time that timeline was already a full blast at king's landing thanks to cersei's machinations and whatever. So it is kind of what it is. I mean, everyone's fucking around in this book is what I'm trying to say. That's true.

They're all fucking around. They're all finding out. Ned, two chapters ago in Ned 9, he's sitting there and he's like, I gotta go. I gotta go. My bro is no longer my bro. I gotta go. I can't trust anyone here. And then like he gets his ass sat down by little finger calms down and is like all right you've got a lead let me check it out

and then robert sits his ass down i was like you can't go anywhere you're my best friend bro i love you bro and then he's like yeah you right and he sits down and he stays everybody's just fucking off in this book is what i'm saying so i can't judge anyone you know jamie's out there causing shit in the streets like a dick yeah can you believe we did those three years ago our three-year anniversary was recently oh that's true you pointed that out oh ned ned so dead well liza and catalan uh of course their their tepid relationship is brought back to the forefront because catalan realizes she was not awakened when the bird with this information from edmure arrived and roderick's like yeah well liza thought maybe you should

sleep that it would be better to speak with you after the combat. Which, of course, she thought that. Interesting. Liza withholding information? Never. Get right out of town. Liza still plans to go through with this mummer's farce. And Cat's like, Liza's being played.

And I want to go home to Winterfell. I want to leave. And Roderick,ick bless him he's not really keen on the idea of taking another ship if you remember last time he turned bright green so yeah poor roderick so cat buckles up for both his sake and to just get the damn thing over with and she thinks of her sister and thinks liza's policies varied with her moods and her moods changed hourly the shy girl she had known at Riverrun had grown into a woman who was by turns proud fearful cruel dreamy reckless

timid stubborn vain and above all inconstant yes so I love the description of Liza like this because we've talked about it a little in previous chapters but she is very much like the moon and I'm going to read aloud um a passage from Romeo and Juliet if you like Romeo and Juliet I'm sure you all know it that uses very much the similar language of oh we're not by the moon thin constant moon that changes monthly in her circle orb lest that thy love prove likewise variable and I, I mean, yeah. What they're saying is that Liza is as changeable as the moon, that every night has a different face on it,

and just as Kat has come to embody many of the Stark values, as we've talked about previously, Liza has also very much become the Arryn sigil. She's become the moon, though, and not the falcon who gets to feast on oxen. And Lysa's love has proven to be just as variable, also

very much inconstant, as is hinted in this chapter, that she was not loyal to Jon Arryn, and clearly doesn't even have a constant love for her own family. Everyone's like, Catelyn's like, Tyrion's playing you, and it it's like no all of you got played by liza erin it is some 4d chess though you gotta you gotta give liza that but the language also reminds me of how kevin kind of speaks about cersei right and i think it's during the epilogue in a dance

with dragons in a daubada affectionately but it reminds me of how he speaks of Cersei kind of and how she was as a young girl compared to now. And it does have, I think, for Catelyn these thoughts. There is almost that little bit of, I don't know, just that little bit of sadness for her sister tinge with like, a little bit of internalized, like, why was she this way and didn't do things the way i did and this is why she's here and has caused her to be there uh just a little bit in the way of how sisters i think see each other i wouldn't know specifically i don't have one i think this is all this is all hypothetical but it's just really interesting the the comparison to cersei and how the shrewd behavior and the very paranoid and fearful and cruel behavior gets highlighted in who they were as young girls versus now. Yeah, I have three sisters. So I have enough sisters for all of us here. Oh, good.

One of them in particular, reminds me a lot of Lysa, a lot of Lysa in a lot of different ways. Yeah, she and I are not close. I hope she doesn't listen to this. We're not close. Okay. But it's the same, kind of growing up with her, it was the same kind of stuff that Liza projects. And I recognize a lot of my own reactions to my sister

in Catelyn's sort of inner monologue about i've got to deal with this bullshit again from um i get that it it i can relate wow yeah okay and it's i think hard for cat because right she's like i gotta deal with this bullshit again but it's she's only feeling that again in this visit she's like what the fuck happened to my sister dick happened well and again there's so much of that robert and ned kind of parallel going on of like was i blind or did this actually happen when i wasn't looking or when did this happen uh but both of them kind of realized the whole time like oh this was happening the whole time yep oh i was blind yeah both of those are related to the veil too interesting

tyrian had sought to confess and liza wants to make a show of it again because she is playing everyone and then cat wants to remind liza that it again because she is playing everyone and then Kat wants to remind Liza that Tyrion is her prisoner Maester Coleman has already filled Brendan in on the raven from Riverrun Liza has refused to grant soldiers to her home including to her own uncle and then Brendan Tully hands in his resignation letter effective immediately he's like fuck your two weeks notice i quit now yeah god that must feel so good for brendan but like i do want to say i mean good luck getting a job reference from liza going forward it's going to be a problem i'm just saying i mean it's going to be a bigger problem when she's dead that's true that is a gap in your employment history sir

yeah kat thinks her uncle is going to have a very difficult time alone on the high road and she actually insists she and roger should accompany him promising 1 000 men for river run it's really sad i think for brendan it is sad right like this is a monumental moment for him that he stayed all these years in hopes that he could maybe help and protect liza but it turns out liza doesn't want anyone to help and protect her besides little finger uh and the close court she keeps that we're about to see the the mummer's farce of a court of men that are all just draping themselves over her for a chance at the veil it's sad it's very sad it's very empty for liza it is not what catalan or host or anyone would have wanted for their that beautiful young girl who was so hopeful and wistful and has become this yeah absolutely And as he was the one who actually did get to see that transformation.

He's the one who's. Not completely blindsided. Catelyn promising the thousand men for Riverrun. It's interesting to see her taking control of matters of how Stark in giving those men. Right. That she's the one who's able to give that order. And. Clint you were talking about

this earlier it kind of ties into what you were saying with the beginning of this chapter she's realizing what's happening to some extent cat you know she probably feels responsible for river run being at risk now in giving those men but also you know it's cat she's was the older one and like liza both of them were married off to seal an alliance during wartime but cat clearly understands what this alliance means it's decades later that alliance still is binding as this war is starting to ramp up and she wants to protect her home and clearly liza has other priorities yeah and it's it's like the sort of original southern ambitions alliance right yes they have to honor um and it's like kind of the core of it and i think that that goes to brendan's frustration is that this is this is a pact that has been sealed many times over and must be honored

and Liza is flaunting it he's like this is the point this is why you're even here in the veil right now Liza because you're supposed to help provide men to support the river run because it's the most vulnerable of all the locations in the seven kingdoms yeah i mean the subtext is this is why you married yeah like you married for these swords so for you and i mean that is you know the very much so the projection inward and outward we get from cadeline and liza right like cadeline is pissed because she's like we put up with all this for this reason this is what we suffered for Liza and you're just throwing it away but Liza's like fuck you I'm not suffering again for that shit yeah like I'm eating my cake now okay I already baked my cake for how many years now

I'm gonna eat it she's literally gonna eat cake uh-huh part of me is like really mad at Liza through all this right because of her insufferable behavior but also when I think of it this way I'm also like yeah girl you eat your cake good for her I think I it's hard I know I could get her not wanting

to support her own because of that but I'm also just like it is bullshit it's bullshit and especially because of all the other people who die unrelated to that and the whole war part yeah if it were you know if it were smaller stakes if it were smaller stakes you know you're just like mom and dad i'm not coming home for this holiday you know yeah i know i get it hey and some parents act like that is war. Okay. I just want to put that out there.

I agree. But this one's actually. This one's different. This is real war. Not fake war. Oh my gosh. Well. Well, they enter Liza's apartment and there's some interesting stuff going on.

First, how gaudy it is. Right. In her apartments, the text is constantly emphasizing Robert's childish laughter, and Liza is gathered around her small garden, once a godswood, but the eerie could not get weirwoods to grow from their infertile ground. Again, spoilers foreshadowing, you know, the future. So now it's got flowering shrubbery. This is where the wrestling match is going to take place today, right? And Liza is decked out.

She's wearing cream velvet with a necklace of sapphires and moonstones to really ring on in the Aaron look. Make sure everyone knows who the boss is to get real fashion hour on it real quick. She's surrounded by lords, knights, retainers over overlooking the wrestling ring, and many are courting her. Robert's got a high chair. He's watching a puppeteer with two wooden knights. That's probably symbolism. Hmm. That's symbolism.

The language also, though, is really pointed, right? They're emphasizing the foolish appearance of Robert in the high chair, and then it explicitly calls him not Robert or Sweet Robin. appearance of Robert in the high chair and then it explicitly calls him not Robert or Sweet Robin, it calls him the Lord of the Eerie as they show how childish he's being and like yeah, King Robert

Baratheon was like a little disrespectful and probably also very much manipulated when he was like, yeah I'm gonna remove Sweet Robin as Warden of the East, but like you look at this and you're like, I don't know! I don't know, can you really blame him? It kind of makes sense.

Yeah, he's weak. It's not great. Yeah. Well, would this be our podcast if we didn't mention food? We started with the oxen, now we're coming to the dessert, and this one probably is more like traditionally

appealing versus the years aged meat we have this passage pictures of thick cream and baskets of blackberries had been set out and the guests were sipping a sweet orange scented wine from engraved silver cups and you know i just recently got one of my like many food newsletters that i'm subscribed to i got the one from food 52 like today or yesterday about desserts and it was especially talking about blackberries and many of them had cream in them and i was like oh it's a sign oh i i love blackberries and cream but i can't eat it because I'm lactose intolerant. It's bad. Sorry. I'm so sorry.

There are non-dairy creams that I think will give you a similar... Yeah, you could whip up some cream. They're not... They're fine. They're not the same. I think coconut. I think coconut, like, creams and stuff with it could be good. Coconut cream whips up well, too. It froths well.

I've been real into frothing things lately for my coffee as eliana eliana knows this but very into frothing so i uh i actually made like a berry pie the other day and we had a little cream with it so i feel very veilish i was in the zone uh we've talked a lot about edward and robert compared to cat and liza the last couple episodes and this here has another thing they share in this book robert and liza never seem to be alone when eddard and cat really want to get them isolated and get truthful honest answers from them without people listening in they can't get intimate and get the the truth that they seek uh throughout the story people are always their body court is always surrounding them and i just it

really stuck out on this reread that's a great point and it's one of those things that um again had never occurred to me but absolutely as you're pointing out um the lack of the ability to sit people down and call people directly on their bullshit which you know as sisters or or biffles like like kat and liza and ned and robert are respectively like they could do that but you can't do that while everybody's watching because it undercuts their power it's a real problem we see robert doesn't obviously know uh it doesn't seem that he's cognizant, cognizant of all of it. He might be a bit, but Littlefinger kind of seems to be the player at his side, constantly keeping someone around Robert, keeping Ned from the truth, keeping Robert preoccupied

and very similarly keeping him preoccupied. Whereas for Kat, it's Liza is directly straying, right? Like she directly is making sure she's surrounded. She does not want to have to deal with giving her sister the truth. And the representation of the men too, they're just like the worst dudes. They're all just like assholes in very opposite ways we're about to discover. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, that is a big difference, right?

Liza's definitely doing it on purpose Brendan Tully thinks this whole thing though is a fool's festival and as you said she's surrounded by the worst dudes again men who would make me want to scream like in the worst way like get me the fuck out of here Liza's flirting with Lord Hunter and Lynn Corbray, which, eyes emoji. Side eyes emoji. Interesting that he's here showing that they are the ones that she favors most today.

Kat finds them both unsuitable for different reasons. True. True. It is. It's two very specific opposite reasons that I find so interesting the first thing is Eustace and Harlan

Hunter are names to remember Lord Ian Hunter here is dead he's done for he's gone if you're nice and caught up with the whole entire series and you're waiting and you're waiting for T. Wow like we are he's done. He was killed and it is suspected

that he probably got murdered by Harlan, the youngest son. And Gilwood Hunter is the current lord. He's the eldest. It's suspected the youngest Harlan killed their father. Gilwood won't be long if Harlan has his way.

And Eustace and Harlan are definitely of an age that we might see them in the Winds of Winter in the Tourney of the Winged Knights. It's going to go on. So it wouldn't surprise me if we had a little sun on sun action, maybe some hunter crimes go on in the Winds of Winter. So keep an eye out on them. And Lin Corbray's entrance in this chapter is great. Our first entrance we get of him really is Tyrion V, where we get this great view of the Vale Court from Tyrion's eyes first before Catelyn's eyes. Lady Arryn had summoned her knights and retainers to hear his confession as he had hoped. He saw Ser Brynden Tully's craggy face and Lord Nestor Royce's bluff one.

Beside Nestor stood a younger man with fierce black side whiskers who could only be his heir, Sir Elber. Most of the principal houses of the Vale were represented. Tyrion noted Sir Lynn Corbray, slender as a sword, Lord Hunter with his gouty legs, the widowed Lady Wainwood surrounded by her sons,

others sported sigils he didn't know, broken lance, green viper, burningper burning tower wing chalice uh and later on those are revealed as house widman house linderly house grafton and house hersey so lynn spends his time on page mostly threatening people the first few times we see him we see him uh like straight up and that's pretty much just his persona he's usually threatening people or whatever yeah it's just his personality he's v gruff but in tyrian 5 he literally has this line where he's like i vote we behead tyrian and they're like okay well he has to have a trial first he's like fine i vote he loses his trial and we behead him it's so funny which is not exactly due process lynn like that's the thing this whole thing is not yeah yeah i want to point out that i think the text says that lynn as cat walks in like lynn is literally like feeding liza blackberries on the point of his dagger here which is very saucy

i think it is and it's very underworldy i know Eliana has some mythos she'll want to talk about in a bit, but the Vale has some major underworld kind of vibes when they discuss going up the seven layers of hell to get up there. True. Interesting. Yeah. These are interesting men to highlight as the contrast. It's very devil and angel on the shoulder by her right

now both of these men lord hunter and lynn are eager right like most of them veil men to stick out their swords to fight for liza so to speak and serve artist egan is actually the only one to give a damn about respecting the sanctity of human life and as we know he's about to die so he doesn't matter but he we have this line in tyrian five where he's like sir vardus had been singularly silent my lady he said gravely sinking to one knee pray give this burden to another i have no taste for it the man is no warrior look at him a dwarf half dwarf, half my size, lame in the legs. It would be shameful to slaughter such a man and call it justice. Yes. So like, you know, not also like, obviously, that's a normal human position to take on

fighting Tyrion. Like it would feel probably wrong. And obviously, he's not fighting him. He's fighting Bronn now. So there's a couple concessions in here. But there's very separate approaches from these men in the veil and it kind of seems like vardus egan which i'm sure we'll get into is being punished for not for dissenting from the way the men treat liza there every man there was like let's kill tyrian yeah let's kill him this will be fun

and vardus egan the only true knight among them was like I'm sorry my lady but this kind of sounds fucked up yeah I I feel so bad for Vardis Egan in so many different ways I I often have sad about Vardis Egan thoughts and times because like and I'll talk about this a little bit more i i think knights are very similar to lawyers and i feel like he just got like sent the worst possible client and it ends up it ends up being bad and it's i just feel bad for him yeah i mean his client isn't she's not great right she's we've already established that a few times throughout this chapter um and she kind of reminds me a little bit of a character who is portrayed as good, but with a twist. Penelope, Odysseus' wife in the Odyssey. But again, with that twist, Penelope waits for like 20 years for Odysseus to return from his travels.

And I think Lysa is very much like that, right? She's waiting for her Odysseus, and we don't realize that we don't know that yet uh who is littlefinger which is you know that that'll send your brain for a spin if you think about that too hard but while the odyssey shows that penelope hated the suitors and she was stalling so that she wouldn't have to marry any of them because she didn't like any of them right especially because they are taking it out on her by just consuming all of her resources until she has no choice but to give in uh liza actually really enjoys the attention she's she's feeling herself finally stepping out of her sister's shadow and she like you know as you pointed out she's eating blackberries off of men's daggers like she must enjoy that i don't think she is feeling herself she is yeah feeling herself

and you know herodysseus does eventually return he accomplishes and climbs up the ladder right proves himself in in that sort of heroic way right where odysseus does it by like shooting an arrow through all the axes i guess he does it by going all the way around collecting a bunch of different titles and that is like congratulations to me i'm lord of the riverlands now which was her childhood home but he also again don't think about it too don't think about little fingers Odysseus was played in the canonical Benioff vehicle Troy he was played by Sean Bean oh interesting yeah so it just all comes back full circle wow I think they planned that they're geniuses yeah the show that the books are based on. Indeed. Indeed. Actually, it is a little very much inspired by Troy,

but not Troy, but the Iliad. Right. Oh, the Iliad. That's what Troy inspired. I should definitely go around saying that fucking the books were inspired by the movie Troy. Oh my God. I should say that. Fuck. Fuck.

Well, you know, Liza is feeling herself so hard that she greets Kat super warmly. She's like, sister, hello, come on in. The orgy's great. And she invites her to start drinking.

Which is very, that's how my family greets each other too. So that's fine. Yeah, mine too. Mine doesn't. Yeah, I feel that. Kat is like, we need to talk. And Liza's like, no, I don't really want to. And Kat's like, no, bitch, now.

And she tries to explain the stakes. She's like, Tyrion is more valuable alive he's useless dead and we're probably going to be in a lot of trouble if we kill him and she's also like also his champion's pretty hardcore and if his champion prevails we have no prisoner because prisoners are useless when they're not prisoners anymore lord hunter is like oh it's gonna be fine it's gonna be fine miss catalan it'll be absolutely fine and spoiler it was not fine catalan is like not a gambling woman but she's sitting there thinking bron's pretty good he's a pretty good bet against vardus egan especially having survived the high road on the way here that's kind of a sign

yes and we're not gonna put this entire scene here but i would have loved to but it's like long but go back and reread this because it is a masterpiece of a scene it's well written you can really see georgia's screenwriting background come through it moves the entire like it moves the story forward and that plot and while setting the context for things through the dialogue and people speaking to one another. Very well done. One of those people, it's Sir Morton Weedwood, my favorite character. He says, women understand little of these things.

And then mansplains how Sir Vardis is an amazing knight and sellswords are stupid and cowards. So this is the part where I talk about how knights are like lawyers. And this is kind of the reason why I wanted to come on for this particular episode. And so everybody's like, come on, Clint, just you want to be a knight and like lawyers are not that cool. And I get it. And I stipulate to that. And that's fine. But here's here's the argument is that knights and lawyers both are their main job is to kind of stand in for the litigants for the for the people on the field of battle so like when lawyers appear in court a judge will ask like

if i'm there on behalf of the defendant the judge will ask me like how does the defendant view this particular argument and i will speak on behalf of the defendant it's very similar to what you know champions do in these trials by combat here that we see throughout the series and also as we've talked about on learned hands a few times both knights and lawyers have like ethical codes and duties and oaths that they are supposed to uphold and often fail to uphold in the course of their duties. And so I love this whole scene because it's very similar to how everybody thinks that when you get really expensive lawyers, that those expensive lawyers are better than the small firm lawyers or the solo practitioners or the public defenders and whatnot.

And sometimes that is true. Sometimes those lawyers are very good and they know what they're doing, but it's not always true. And there are a lot of great lawyers who are not like super high priced. And you also, when you go to trial, you just never know how a case is going to go. And it's the same thing that happens with a duel. I've had cases that I thought were absolute slam fucking dunks. And this is going to make tons of money. And it's going to be super easy. And then lost those cases. And I've also had cases where I thought we had no chance and no choice.

And we were going to get absolutely creamed and then won. And I've also had everything in between. And so it just sort of highlights the sort of uncertainty of these things that are designed to create justice or find a just result. But in many ways are just actual games of chance. And we see the result of that here. I love that. chance and we see the result of that here i love that that's a really really great argument in comparison between the two and i think it's also you know you're hoping each one can make the best case and by that you mean body right and some of it is it's up to chance as you said right like

who fights better or like who's on the jury that day who's who's the judge things like that yeah Vardis Egan is absolutely the expensive lawyer here and as you said he's not necessarily a bad one right he's a good lawyer and he's a good he's a good knight and he does a really good job I think under very difficult circumstances that we're going to talk about but like he still loses and that that just happens sometimes yeah it was a really big risk too i mean something that really stood out and just in some of the ideas you've had clint i tried to consider that a lot more this episode and kind of look at it from that angle and like god i feel really bad for vardas like he he is playing a different game the game he's playing by the classic rules. And I mean, that's something that's happening across this whole entire book right now.

As we said, people are just fucking up. And he and Catalin and Ned and all these people are playing the game by very specific honorable rules and losing. Yep. Yep. Same game everyone else is playing. But then you have Lynn Corbray standing there with his dagger and blackberries and Lord Ian Hunter with this ho ho ho lady lizes. And here's Vardis Egan dying. What is he doing wrong? He's playing by the rules with honor. Right. And I think, like you said, it's something that's going on across these books. And I think it's especially poignant coming through in Catelyn's chapters, right? We've been talking about how this is exactly what's happening in Catelyn's chapters. She thought that the system was going to work and everything, you know, but Vardis Egan is made of different stuff than those other people, right? He is pretty different from Lin Corbray and Lord Hunter. I think Lin Corbray, he clearly doesn't have a good sense of justice. He's the kind of person who I think, you know, if we're keeping with this analogy, yeah, I think Lin Corbray could hold his own in a fight.

I think he could kill, he could take on Vardis Egan. I think that he could probably take on Bronn pretty well too, but he doesn't care about it. Lin Corbray seems like someone who would also pay off the judge. But, yeah, for sure. He doesn't give a shit i mean we've all read these books we know how lynn corbray is and i mean i i'm fine with that because i'm not fine

with that but i think that that's his character right it makes sense for him and i don't know i think a lot of people would have a harder time if their justice system if our lawyers had to fight each other instead of with their fists instead of their minds but believe me there have been times when i really wanted to i guess here you know like if if the defendant here loses two people die instead of just one if you think about it whereas if the prosecution right loses only one person dies as far as we can tell prosecution right loses only one person dies as far as we can tell the better really you think about it the least it's a better outcome by one justice um anyway speaking of other things that are frustrating morton wayne wood he he himself he's just frustrating and his words also set the stage for something that comes up

in caitlin's chapters especially as he talks of sellswords and the lower classes as disposable when the rest of the realm is now like at the brink of war emphasized again by the start of this chapter and we don't actually know i think how old sir morton weanwood is and we don't actually know exactly how old sir anya weanwood is it's but he might not have any combat experience at all that's entirely possible and yet he is so sure of his perspective on all of this i'm like martin wayne would have you even lived through a war i don't know he might not have even been that old or alive during robert's rebellion no idea and kat and her contemporaries survived it right they saw the damage of it like literally her husband is a war hero and like he knows more about this he doesn't hold those same ideas when it comes to

class and ability when it comes to fighting and like the veil knights and their lords are very much in their ivory tower i think that not a cast at a great breakdown of a lot of that um so i'm not going to retread all of it but morton's words here do set the stage for how we're going to see this come up a lot in Kat's chapter specifically especially in Clash of these naive men who think that they know about war because they have been taught heroism and chivalry through the songs but are really just boys of summer and that's something that Kat will note later among the Tyrells yeah it's a going to the eerie was not a positive move in the end like she left feeling very disheartened and rightfully so i think rightfully so yeah it's a hard truth to swallow if there's anywhere that would be fun to scream off of though it would be the eerie through the window

yeah liking uh the garden state when they're standing on the thing yelling yup i guess it's just like that that's exactly how it would be it would be just like the garden state why are you guys laughing it's not funny it's true is what it is speaking of true say you have the truth of it then, Catelyn sighed with a courtesy that made her mouth ache. I feel that one. I know. I'm like, oh my god. What a mood.

In fact, when I just said that, I made sure to paste a smile on my face because, you know, I should smile more. Catelyn asks, so what's the point of Tyrion's death? You know, whether the Lannisters, especially Jaime, cares that Tyrion got a trial is one thing. And Lann Corbray again starts in with the beheading. He's like, well, we should just kill him now then, if it doesn't matter.

He just doesn't care. She's like, that's not what I was implying. We shouldn't just kill him now. But Lysa refuses. She's like, no, my son would like to see this this man fly through the moon door and i would like to give him that show so that's why we're doing this and also tyrian wanted a trial by combat yes that's what he wanted i'm sure yeah well he demanded it he he filed a westerosi writ of habeas corpus and oh my god claimed his his right

as a noble for for due process this is what you get when you invite me on your podcast uh but it's this is like a feature of westerosi due process or procedural due process is that nobles and knights get the right to demand a trial by combat and it's like the only sort of unbad feature of westeros process it's like not good but it's not like it's not actively bad and so i don't know i just want to note that i like yeah it is what they have like it's this is it this is the one loophole the saving tyrian's life and it's medium i think it's important it literally is the medium place like just warm beer one warm beer uh and god while we're here we may as well call out tyrian's charges from tyrian five because in tyrian five liza literally announces this is Tyrion the Imp of House Lannister who murdered your father.

He slew the Hand of the King. What? Did he? Wow. Wow. But, like, that's literally pretty much the main charge here that they're trying to find him guilty on. Like, and then it became he killed Bran was what Catelyn was, like, trying to figure out. She's like, well well you killed bran but then obviously that dissolves and liza just takes on the train that

tyrian killed john aaron uh and and she has all the power it's a total power play right that she's saying that's a charge at all but right it's really weird to see that because in tyrian's chapter he comments on how he sees catalan versus li, versus Lysa's crazy ass fucking shenanigans. And he says Catelyn might take a man prisoner, but she'd never stoop to rob him in the sky cells when he's trying to bargain with his gold with Mord. And he thinks that wouldn't be honorable. wouldn't be honorable so even through this whole interaction even though cattling kind of dragged his ass to the eerie and did kind of place him toward this predicament by trusting the the variable that was her sister he still sees cattling as semi-honorable through all this and like she's doing this by the books uh and he sees kind of that liza's crazy motherfucking shenanigating this one and I find

that very interesting because Liza's out here just laying all these charges at his feet that he's like I didn't even do that one didn't do it I want to ask Clint about that tell us about what that means can you just whip out random charges from anywhere switching up

the charges in a trial so in a regular trial no you gotta you cannot do that generally this is not a regular trial though it's not a regular trial but like the so like the the other major feature of the westerosi criminal justice system is that the lord has the right to pit and gallows it's like specifically retained in westerosi governance by agon the conqueror himself and so like as the lord or the representative of the lord here catalan is charging tyrian with you know trying to kill bran and liza is charging tyrian with killing john erin so like it's definitely weird and super suspicious. And like, this is all kind of bullshit, ad hoc nonsense, but like, it works there.

I mean, it is ridiculous, right? Because it's just like this big area and they're like, well, we're gonna have a big death duel and then whoever loses is gonna get thrown out the moon door. Hooray! It's like, it's kind of Alice in Wonderland-esque, right? Like when they get to the tea party. It's very tea party-esque. You've got all the weird, the blackberries and the knife

and the craziness. And even later when she makes Zanza's favorite food, favorite dessert and then she's like, good, now that I've had you nice and happy and in a place of security with your favorite lemon cakes, I'm gonna dangle your ass at the moon door and beat you up.

Yes, the best part of family gatherings now that i think about you were talking about like retaining certain rights i guess had tyrian lost he could have always tried to plead the black and take the black yeah he could have tried um i think i think that's right but i don't know if Liza allowed it. She would have been like, sure. You will go out the moon door and then you can join the black. Yeah, at night when it's dark out. It's just as high. Same thing.

Well, you know what? Lord Hunter also wants to get it on the mansplaining. He says that Liza had to accept this trial because it's honorable. And Cat just ignores the men. To remind Liza that Tyrion is her prisoner. And Liza, in what must, honestly, I'm just going to say, it must be an Oscar-winning performance.

She reminds Catelyn that Tyrion poisoned her husband. And she says it with a straight face. And then turns around Tyrion poisoned her husband. Oh my god. And she says it with a straight face and then turns around, whips her hair, draws her skirts behind her and is like, we're going. She doesn't say it. You know, she says it with her body. It's just so ice cold. It's dramatic lighting. It is.

And then everyone leaves with her. And I'm just like, that's very suspicious. But like, give her the oscar give her bafta you know they got that pussy on a pedestal for sure that pussy is on a pedestal but not cat no not cat because pussy it, because pussycat. Yeah, because wrong pussy. Oh. Things move fast here, Clint. Things move fast here. Got it.

I get it. Well, Roderick, who, of course, Catlin's BFF, our BFF, he picks up on all this and notices things are kind of odd. And he's like, so, Cat, do you think Tyrion did it? And Cat's like, it was the Lannisters, but I don't know how or who was involved. Lysa implicated Cersei in the letter, not Tyrion. And then Catelyn thinks, Catelyn almost wished she had burned her sister's letter

before reading it. So Lysa named Cersei in the letter she sent to Winterfell, but now she seemed certain that tyrian was the killer cat is like she obviously knows something's up this is a sign and she sees it it's a sign and in tyrian 5 uh i was reminded of tyrian thinks if cersei kept her wits about her she would insist the king sit in judgment of Tyrion himself uh he's sitting there thinking that while Lysa is kind of assigning this whole trial situation to him and that line stood out to me because in a storm of swords in Tyrion's next

trial Cersei does make sure the guy who's basically king is judging him, Tywin, but not, like, to his advantage. Poor Tyrion. This doesn't stop for him. It keeps going. Life sucks. Yeah. I mean, Tyrion is an absolute shit in a lot of different ways. But, like, he didn't do this.

You know, like, he's getting fucking railroaded. Left and right. He never did this shit. So, yeah. that's a great catch that is a great catch i don't know what it's gonna be but i think he's gonna have a third trial by combat and i'm gonna come back i think thing you know things happen in threes yeah he's gonna have a third one with something even more escalating maybe he'll actually be guilty that time oh that would be good maybe yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of speculation with the bad show and how it lines up and if anything was real or if it was all just made up and nothing mattered.

And I do think that, like, his plot has a similar direction probably as the show. He probably will be really gung-ho to support Danny and and then maybe uh kind of do some some plotting that maybe he shouldn't and get in trouble for it and maybe his ass gets saved from being dragon food at some point you know maybe maybe she's ready to do him in finally maybe danny's like i'm sick of his mouth i think we're all sick of his mouth a little right now not enough to kill him but he's he's got a lot happens in his story yeah so roger suggests that the imp could have poisoned somebody but then he says hmm it is said that poison is a woman's weapon that's my roger i love it and also it's obviously not jamie's style to poison somebody jamie would just like stab them in the back or slit their throat and leave them lying in front of the Iron Throne.

And so like Roderick, great instincts here. He's a very good detective, even if some of the rationale behind using poison is, you know, misogynist and sexist and also wrong. so wrong um but like who who who really is behind it all when you think about it is you know he's doing a good job at sort of piecing this together also asking you know whether it really was poison and catalan's like you know quite rightly she's like well yeah how else are they going to make it look natural which is a really good point and i guess like you probably could like smother him with a pillow or something like that not that i've thought about ways to kill somebody he's a lawyer to make it look natural natural oh my god this man wow law so much law happening here so much this is not law this is not legal advice at all this is i think this is breaking the law i mean to that extent i will say like i don't know john aaron was old there's a lot of ways to make it look

natural okay just cough down too hard like push him down i don't know yeah they all thought he looked pretty healthy though i don't know it's interesting that the concepts of poison and women's weapons are tied closely together and I think it's definitely implying something here in this section with the rest of this chapter and everything else that happens in this chapter right it is Liza to an extent also it's Littlefinger he is a definite modus operandi

of like also using women to poison people right Liza to John Sansa and Olenna for Joffrey and arguably maybe you could say Sansa to Sweet Robin but I think that Sansa will wiseenna for Joffrey. And arguably, maybe you could say Sansa, Sweet Robin, but I think that Sansa will wise up to that, as we've discussed, I don't know, two years ago now.

But, again, I think things happen in threes. I wonder if there might be a third, more explicit one. Hmm. Interesting. The way there was for, like, Lysa, you know, more clear of that causal thing. i do respect that i think this definitely influenced tyrian and later when he poisoned cersei right uh thinking of what's

an easy thing to do that no one's gonna notice when he poisons his sister to put her out for a day yeah that's by giving her diarrhea yeah and i, he does do it also with Yezen, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true. He starts doing it more and... He has picked up poisoning a little bit, eh? And we'll see more poisoning in King's Landing when Tyene's there, obviously, probably in the background

and people will probably die of poison quietly. She is a woman, so they do poison, I hear i hear i'll just heard i learned it from her dad who's not i learned it from watching you oh my god you know back to that letter it's interesting because cat's you know surveying the thought of the letter that she got from Liza. And there are so many different significant letters that have kind of been like, you know, the kaboom, the big fire that lights up and just boom, here goes Westeros. And this is one of them. But it reminds me of another letter that we get in some plot that kind of some plot points that kind of coincide here. And that's Jamie's letter from Cersei, right?

Which Kat's letter from Liza, she she thinks i wish i had just burned it i wish i had thrown it away i wish i'd never read it and she did burn another letter in her life without looking at it right little fingers letter after brandon had died little finger sent her a letter and she didn't open it she threw it straight out and jamie throwing cersei's letter out after reading it has these kind of vibes as well right of cadeline having fallen for her sister's ploys her innocence being fooled having drawn her on this goose chase this journey out to the veil where now a man cadeline doesn't even think is guilty anymore is pretty badly stacked, oddwise,

in a fight, right? And I can't believe I'm defending Lannisters today. But as we get to the conversation of the duel here soon, and we talk about Brandon and Little Fingers' duel, it does bring up that letter she burned. She has a big contrast in that she knew to throw out Littlefinger's letter, right? Like, in her heart, she knew, don't even open it, throw it out. But of course, her hesitation in the face of her familial bonds to her sister, how she was raised, how she was conditioned to honor her family and to help family. It makes sense that she trusted Liza and that she's here now because those are the values she was kind of imbued with.

Yeah, great point. Family duty honor. It's great point. Family duty honor. It's not Littlefinger duty honor. It's family duty honor, damn it. Well, someone should tell Liza that. Right. Because that's all she wants to do is Littlefinger. In many ways, yes.

Gross. She's like, what if all the words were Littlefinger? Family duty honor. honor little finger booty honor pretty much she barely succeeded last one later on um cat critiques sweet robin not not to liza's face of course thinking that he must be taken away from liza to grow and then maester coleman joins the conversation because he was also joining in the brunch to Liza's face, of course, thinking that he must be taken away from Liza to grow. And then Maester Coleman joins the conversation because he was also joining in the brunch drinking and just, like, happened over here and then volunteering.

You know what? You know what? Jon Arryn agreed with that idea. Yes, he was planning to send the boy to Dragonstone for fostering, you know. Oh, but I'm speaking out of turn.' The apple of his throat bobbed anxiously beneath the loosed maester's chain. "'I fear I've had too much of Lord Hunter's excellent wine. The prospect of bloodshed has my nerves.

They're all a fray.' "'You are mistaken, maester, Catelyn said. It was Casterly Rock, not Dragonstone, and those arrangements were made after the hand's death, without my sister's consent. The maester's head jerked so vigorously at the end of his absurdly long neck that he looked half a puppet himself.

No, begging your forgiveness, my lady, but it was Lord John who a bell told loudly below them high lords and serving girls alike broke off what they were doing and moved to the balustrade that's a info dump right there a that tells us something is afoot that was more like air horns sirens yeah red flags holy shit throwing some red flags ref caught in the lies liza liza and arbor if that is your real name um this is a great highlight because i'm not sure but it seems her own maester has betrayed her lies do we know this is a question and i don't know the answer and maybe you two do do we know if liza was lying here or whether she was in fact being manipulated by

little finger or like some mix of both because i could totally see bailish telling her oh yeah the plan is to send them to the lannisters and then having lisa believe that and then use it as cause of spell I for killing John. So do we know? We don't really have that answer, right? I agree that Littlefinger is definitely manipulating her in one manner or another here. Like he has to be involved in this. But when I read it, I definitely thought it implied John planned to have him hosted with Stannis. And maybe publicly people were trying to say it was Lannister.

But Pycelle also tells Ned Robert was supposed to go to Dragonstone. Right? In that last couple Ned chapters, we learned this. So even though they're all told at the start of the book by various people, Lysa fled because she was afraid of the Lannisters taking her child. We're learning otherwise from other people. So either Littlefinger tells her to plant the Lannister lie or manipulates her into believing the Lannister lie. I kind of opt for her planting the lie and maybe Littlefinger manipulating her into planting that lie and telling Kat that lie.

to planting that lie and telling Kat that lie, because there's kind of something so intimate about Liza's manipulations and betrayals and lies to her sister, like how this has been a total gaudy show, right? Like how there's, you know, Lynn Corbray juggling daggers and blackberries into her mouth, and you got Eon Hunter presenting wine to everyone, and oh, yes, enjoy the show, lads. Quiet Liza, it seems, watched her sister all those years and learned exactly enough to manipulate and seduce her into this shit and it just seems like again siblingless it seems there is a way someone close to you in a familial sense could push your buttons so much more than someone else and i mean she also has the Marsha, Marsha, Marsha syndrome, you know, like Catelyn, Catelyn, Catelyn.

It was always Cat with her beautiful hair and her beautiful body and her stark husband. It's always ever Cat. All I got was this old gross man. I don't know. It just felt like a very intimate manipulation to me. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah, I feel I feel the same that it's like, especially because I think Coleman knew if Coleman knows and other people in the Vale know Especially because I think Coleman knew. If Coleman knows and other people in the Vale know,

then I think Liza knew where he was supposed to go. And I think this is among one of those points of evidence, there's so much of it in this chapter that's being pointed to Liza slash not the Lannisters,

right, for being guilty for a lot of things perhaps partially because George is making it clear that Tyrion is innocent I mean we kind of already like got the sense of it we got the feel for that but it is interesting that the reveal for who is the real killer of Jon Arryn right you're given a red herring at the end of this book but same as the Red Wedding which was also supposed to be in the first book, both of those reveals and big plot points get pushed to

the third book because of George's gardening. Well, enter Tyrion Lannister, man of the hour, still a prisoner. Robert Aaron giggles and asks again if he can make Tyrion fly.

Lin Corbray reminds us, though, of how justice works. Clint, will you take the honors as our lawyer? Trial first, drawled Sir Lin Corbray. Then, execution. Oh my god, we are sending that to Mary and we're going to have her put you on trial for that accent that's bad it's bad no i'm just kidding i had to laugh it was beautiful it was a good draw i can't really draw very well i could do a little rogue you know like i just gotta copy x-men animated series but i can't do southern that's hard uh oh lynn corbray he is really out for blood these last couple chapters a uh he is out for blood and you know i do like this as a concept only in one situation

for a certain unemployed man in the veil i'm shitting on the illegitimacy here of this trial casually because it really is just so illegitimate. But at the same time, feels kind of like a trial that's going to be given to Littlefinger by Sansa. I mean, he doesn't really deserve guest right for all the trouble and machinations that he's been scheming and plotting and, you know, ruining of lives and family and economy and trafficking. He doesn't deserve the fairness of a trial right but i don't know well we you know we all deserve a trial everybody deserves sorry um but i do wonder if uh if little finger will like sort of demand a trial by combat or instead will sort of think that the fix is in and then like actually submit to the

judgment of the Lord or the lady. That's when Sansa turns on it. I could see it happening that way. Girl boss, gaslight, gatekeep. Can't wait. Night of the gate. The moon gatekeep. The moon gatekeep yeah can't wait night of the gate

the moon gatekeep oh my god uh both of the champions appear from opposite sides of the garden serve artist egan is wearing a very nice heavy set of armor cream and blue wow idiot uh that's not gonna be fun to move in with the sigil of house erin and a really sick helmet with wings and a beak this is a trial by combat sir braun on the other hand is lightly armored with some armor in key places so i want to talk a little bit about lawyer suits again because so like they talk about the contrast between servardus who has like this sick like super expensive suit of armor and then braun is just like showing up in a shirt and i don't know flip-flops or something so lawyer suits it's it's a thing that i think about a lot even though i haven't had to wear a suit in a long

time because of you know the pandemic but like the the way that suits like business suits or lawyer suits that everybody can picture in their head, the actual cut of those suits grew out of, evolved out of sort of martial and military uniforms in the medieval, post-medieval period. This is why business suits or lawyer suits, they seem so formal. It's also why they're sort of designed to make your chest and shoulders look bigger, is that it grew out of sort of military armament. And it's also why some more fancy suits like on Savile Row, which is like the London tailoring area, tend to have sort of a flare

on the tails or the skirting of the jacket. And that's because the style comes from a cavalry dress, like when you're like sitting on a horse, that's how it's supposed to be the jacket. And that's because the style comes from a cavalry dress, like when you're like sitting on a horse, that's how it's supposed to be that way. And so anyway, like, when I got my very first lawyer job, I took my first lawyer job paycheck and bought a very, very fancy spendy suit with all the bells and whistles and like monogram shirts and all this, you know, really nice stuff, because I thought that's what lawyers were supposed to do. Looked good. It was also a Savile Row style, as a matter of fact. And then when I did my first jury trial, which is what I thought I was buying the suit for, my boss told me I couldn't wear the good suit, because it made me look too fancy. And the jury wouldn't like it. And

because we were the plaintiff's lawyers, we don't want to piss off the jury. We don't want to look like we're, you know, too fancy. That's why I would have to wear the ugly men's warehouse suits that I had had for years. And that made me look all boxy and bad. And this is all to say that I love this detail about bronze armor looking shitty, because it solidifies him as the sort of scrappy underdog in everybody's eyes, like in the reader's eyes. They're like, oh, he's the underdog. And moreover, as we'll see, it will actually, his suit, his poor suit, will actually save his life, whereas Vardis' fancy suit of armor arguably costs him his in the end.

That was a fantastic fashion hour. Yeah, I was just going to say thank you for providing was a fantastic fashion hour yeah i was just gonna say thank you for providing us with a fashion hour and it makes so much sense like anytime in this story someone is wearing the excessive metal rain mints right you know that they're probably going down like we've seen it happen already this is just a redux of the tourney where we watched a veil boy in beautiful armor die right um this is what the veil knights do you guys they wear fancy armor and then yeah like you gotta give them that i guess and i love that cat calls all this right like the whole time she's watching this she's's like, look, it's not really what I wanted, but yeah, that guy's going to die.

Bronn is taller than this guy. He's bigger, more formidable, and younger. He's 15 years younger. He has longer reach. He's like 30 to 34 years old, maybe even younger than that. So womp, womp, womp. Kat calls him as she sees him she's good football wife you know

the septon is doing some really cool rainbow shit and he's singing a prayer and then he quickly leaves blessing you know the big trial that's about to happen Tyrion makes a joke to Bronn Egan gets a shield Bronn refuses a shield and

we admire Bronn's beard for a bit through Catelyn's eyes and that his sword is very sharp. Interesting, Catelyn. She has some fantasies brewing here, doesn't she? She does. She's like, I don't know. Would I fuck him? I'm not sure. Yeah, I love the whole part with the septon blessing the trial and like handing it over to the gods.

Because it's very similar again to handing a trial over to a jury at the end. It's like you tell them, okay, we've put on this show and it's yours now. And you just like with a jury, when you hand a trial over to the gods, really really really never know what they're gonna do yeah yeah and i think there's something really really poignant in that it's in the god's wood which we know from this chapter the soil is too thin and from tyrian five and as we hear from sansa a god's wood without gods as godless as me there may be a septon blessing this infertile holy ground that is you know i mean it's been ripped up from the roots but it's just kind of insulting right you're hosting this trial here in a godless godswood there are no gods here for justice that's the point you're handing over the

contest to the gods but there are none they've been rooted out yes liza has given cervartis a sword with a falcon head and a cross guard of wings originally she had a maid for john aaron when he acted in robert's stead she says i thought it only fitting that our champion avenged john with his own blade and i'm like wow damn she really jinxed him huh she really said that about all this and bafta uh the swords are also that that's those are metaphors for the men right where servardus egan is talked about as like all this flash he's decked out like john aaron's sword but a lot of it is mostly ornamental and as you said unwieldy right whereas bronze sword it looks really sharp there's a line that describes it as looking like it had been honed every day for hours which likely is the

case for braun and his skill right he actually has real experience and has honed his skills whereas bard is he can's like i don't know he's honed his sword daily for hours yes absolutely we're not all thinking you can look at the menu but you can't you gotta go home to the oatmeal chloe oh my god just because i'm on a diet doesn't mean i can't look at the menu is is right the fact of it but that is what catelyn's thinking and also that's probably uh why she's she's thinking about degrassi no that's probably why Catelyn is also kind of eyeballing Bronn right now, because

let's face it, Bronn is kind of described other than his darker behavior and skills, he's described as kind of a plain brunette man that plays with his sword all day, every day for hours, and Ned constantly is sharpening

his sword and the gods would quietly to himself to dissociate and stare at trees and shit i'm sure that you know bron is maybe reminding her of that maybe she's just like oh interesting a netta type she loves played brunettes now exactly girl's got a type um you know you can love mud is what we've discussed in this story yeah throughout all this varus egan is definitely the one that is getting some right because he's getting fucked here he's getting fucked got him um katalin's like maybe he should have used the sword that he's used to wielding instead of this ornamental special sword but whatever and i have to say reading this portion of the book in

the passages and liza's like actions you really gotta hand it to both katie dickie and lady gwynn from radio westeros for their canonical performances in The Chair Show and our podcast as Liza Arryn. When I read these books, I hear either of them in their shrill, you know, tones, just very commanding and shrill and this whole passage is just foolish and silly. Liza is making

a beautiful display of a mummer's farce, all this pageantry, right? Like, it's very she has become this great ruler look at me now big sister from my throne but she's doing it wrong catalan is suffering here in silence she's regretting the trip more and more as she goes along there's this great line of the engraved silver blade was beautiful beyond a doubt but it seemed to catalan serve artists might have been more comfortable with his own sword yet she said nothing she was weary of futile arguments with her sister and i can relate i have often been weary of futile arguments with

all of my sisters um but this is this is like just so bananas from liza that she would make him use the sword um it's it's wild but at the same time i really feel like vardis should have insisted like look if you're gonna make me do this you got to give me my own sword of all the people here he has to know that even though everyone else didn't think so, Bronn has a shot to kill him. So keep your own sword, dummy. Or just, like, I don't know, pick it up and then, like, have somebody hand you the other sword. Like, don't, like, go into battle that could cost you your life

with a sword that you don't know. Yeah. Don't die for this gallantry, the chivalry of the Vale, you know? The Vale and those green boys of summer that they'd rather die with a sword in their hands chivalrously than save their asses.

Which is the opposite as we see for Tyrion later, as he's like, I don't care how I look anymore, please get me out of this fucking crazy house. Yeah. He should have known better. He's had experience, right? Yeah, damn that lannister pride oh my god it's all that fault well sweet robin screams for them to fight he's like let's fight

egan does a battle cry everyone is super awkward until liza reminds sweet Robin, they're waiting for you to command, darling. So he goes, fight! And they do. Clank, swing, swing. Bronn dances away from Vardis. Egan swings. Lord Hunter and the other Veil Lords jeer out. You should fight, Vardis.

But Roderick thinks Bronn's strategy is smart. The weight of Vardis' armor will tire him out. Yes. We see that the strategy that Bronn has comes up a few other times throughout these books, too. And honestly, when Roderick remarks upon it, he doesn't seem to have a problem with it. Yeah, and knowing that Gurm is a man of a certain age and a massive sports fan, this is almost certainly a reference to the rope-a-dope strategy that was made famous by muhammad ali in the 1974 rumble in the jungle against george foreman who is like george foreman was a lot bigger than muhammad ali and so the idea was like he allowed george foreman to just like punch himself out punch himself until he was tired keep punching and he just kept running and running and running and then he turned around and whipped his ass very it's almost the same thing that happens with

with braun and so yeah i love that connection i i think that's definitely could be an inspiration and i mean it's an iconic right it's an iconic fight right and i mean this is also an iconic fight in this series lord hunter and the veil lords have come for a show though right and they're like this is not a show because to them they're expecting this to be kind of like a tourney right but men especially from the veil turns out tend to die in tourneys as we learned in sansa's chapters and it shows that along with not caring they like they don't give a fuck about Vardis Egan right fighting or as already

established they do not give a fuck about Bronn or Tyrion and they're not even thinking about the consequences of all of this you're just like I don't know whatever it'd be kind of cool if Tyrion died and I'm like well do you not care about the fact that everyone knows that Tywin

Lannister is mustering strength maybe they don't know right the the raven just came in and lies trying to maybe keep it hush hush right there's no war in Ba Sing Se but somehow no one gives any shits about the consequences like they have to know right they can't all be so stupid to not realize like if Tyrion Lannister dies then Tywin and like the only person that I will excuse for all of this is like Lin Corbray not caring because he just doesn't care that's just his thing it's a personality trait yeah that's just who he is but the others other lords and stuff they like just really think that their shit don't stink lynn corbray knows that he's like that dude the others don't yeah and like all of the declarant that are there that are just like

seeking the power right looking for the the scraps the crows that are awaiting on the corpse and just trying to grab any little bit of power it's a it's definitely kind of a shit show like watching it you're just like this isn't how you run one of the the seven kingdoms this is a joke this is a farce ithaca is lost i mean like robert's courts were funny but this is like really funny you know like this is like what the fuck is this like a circus what is happening here yeah yeah she had seen men practice at their sword play near every day of her life had viewed half a hundred tourneys in her time but this was something different and deadlier a dance where the smallest misstep meant death and as she watched the memory of another duel in another time came back to

catelyn stark as vivid as if it had been yesterday so cat then remembers the duel between brandon stark and peter bailish when peter begged her favor but she gave it to her betrothed brandon pleading with brandon to spare her childhood friend and brandon promised her he would and yeah i know and the fight was over that fight was over very fast because peter sucks and brandon didn't and like brandon was yelling at peter to yield but little finger like a dumb shit wouldn't and then the fight finally ended in the river because he little finger was pushed back so far and brandon who was probably pretty frustrated by then delivered a cut so deep the cat thought it was mortal peter murmured cat like the shittiest

version of rhaegar dying on the Trident. And then it was done. And then that was the last time she had seen Peter until that time a few chapters ago that you guys covered so nicely. Yeah, it is shitty Rhaegar, right? He looked at her as he fell and murmured, cat, as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers keep her name out of your mouth yeah right god talk shit get hit little finger you should just sat there and ate your green beans i feel bad for a child little finger but

i don't know so there's a lot of language here that is straight up rebellion parallels, right? Who would have thought? Eddard 10 preceding this chapter literally begins framed in language and dreams of the rebellion. And it ends with Ned accepting that badge back from Robert, who he shouldn't be trusting, even if Robert had semi good intentions, but mostly ascetic. intentions but mostly acetic robert's presence still lingers in this chapter right robert didn't get liana even though he won brandon didn't get cat even though he won the language with little finger falling to his knees is absolutely like rhaegar and the trident rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name romantic if not like poor man's rhaegar and of course in ned 10 we have robert disclosing his wistful wasted dreams to ned rhaegar won damn him i killed him ned i drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart and he died at my feet they made up songs about it yet somehow he still won he has liana now and i have her of course uh had robert been as ambitious

and goal-oriented as little finger robert would have turned into the villain too right like that's the point little finger was this but he actually got off his ass and snorted an Adderall and did something about it. He doesn't have Cat, right? Brandon now has Cat in hell. Or wherever they are, I don't know. I guess not, because Cat's back on Earth. Never mind.

Yeah, I mean, if she went down, she'd be joining Ned. Yeah, but I don't know. Maybe they'd fight over her. It could be good. Yeah, but she could choose Mud. Brother thing, you know but i don't know maybe they'd fight over her it could be good yeah but she could choose mud brother thing you know i don't know yeah probably yeah and like robert does in some ways you know to cersei's story he is the villain right it's where you look at it from he had he did become the villain without being motivated and it's because he wasn't motivated to become better to move on right the same way that little finger couldn't figure out how to move on that he does become a villain and in a way he while not exactly a villain he is part of what allows the kingdom

to fall into the state that it's going to be in doesn't notice what little finger is doing i don't know if he could have gotten to liana in time or not but she was always going to be dead right by that time but they're two they're two different sides of yeah a coin or leaf or something well while little finger recovered for a fortnight cat Cat was forbidden to see him, but Liza helped nurse him back to health, and we might talk about that another time. It's not good. Not a good scene. Liza was softer and shyer in those days. Littlefinger shooed Edmure away, not forgiving Edmure acting as Brandon Squire. way not forgiving edmure acting as brandon squire which is like just such a big poor loser weenie move on little fingers part yeah like everyone told you to don't do it and edmure's still being nice to you like no one else is being nice to you dude you do not have friends here anymore

edmure i think would have if little finger had gotten to move on he and edmure, I think, would have, if Littlefinger had gotten to move on, he and Edmure could have stayed friends. But maybe. But anyway, soon after Peter recovered, he was sent away. And the sounds of the fight draw Kat out of her memory, where Bronn is still doing great. Good for him. But apparently all of this is very boring to Sweet Robin. Many of the lords also are just drinking, not paying like i don't know a baseball game uh but tyrian is concentrating on the match vardis attempts to block a blow but does poorly and ends up with a gash in his arm

he crashes into elisa's statue rocking her and then braun goes for his sword arm which is so good like he takes out braun takes out the most dangerous part of his opponent, and that allows him to win. Yes. Yeah. Thinking back to what you said, Eliana, about how we kind of see a lot of these similar elements in this fight later, obviously the Oberyn and the Mountain

fight really recalls some of these moves, in my opinion. I just like, very similar, but opposite effect. The underdog in the fight does not win haha for other reasons and that's also tyrian's trial by combat exactly interesting does not turn out the same and you know i love this move it's it's a professional move i used to do it on my dab when we would play lightsaber battle when we ate cereal in the morning yeah it was very important uh today is may the 4th as we record this so you know let's get it out there i mean

my dad and i you know once you cut something with the spoon you hit the arm with the spoon you can't use that arm in the lightsaber battle anymore it's over yeah yeah you have to move to the other arm your bad sword arm and lightsaber with that arm until you get really killed damn yeah high stakes high stakes uh lightsaber fights and you know what you were saying about the fight between the viper and the mountain right obrin and the mountain is yes it's also tyrian's fight i think obrin could have won it you know that's that's what's sad about it he almost won it but the problem is clinta please correct me if i'm wrong which i probably am the problem is you know obrin is tyrian's lawyer but then all of a

sudden he switches things up and starts trying to get a confession for a different case that many have considered is cold and it's like whoa whoa whoa whoa that's not who's on that's not what he's on trial for here right now and that does him in yep sure does sure does good call roderick who is of course a knight and being a detective in this chapter and also a best friend and also he has a side hustle as an esports commentator eliana would like us to know uh while he's watching this he's like vardus egan is hurt what can't the man do Kat can see it on her own though yeah he is he's a red socks man

he's straight up a dude watching the Super Bowl right now you know he's like oh no no he's hurt oh no this doesn't look good yeah he's like and it's very obvious right like it's just one of those things where it's like when somebody hits a home run and then the guy in a stand goes oh that's a home run it's like no fucking shit well we wouldn't know as the readers right cat can see it but roger's doing it for us

you know yeah absolutely he's streaming live he is you don't have to. It's your boy, Roderick, in places I shouldn't be. Or he's doing it as a radio program. NPR. I don't understand even sports commentating. Roderick does, though, and he comments that it seems Vardis is slowing down, but Bronn seems to be getting stronger, moving like a cat, according to the text. Thinking face emoji. Hmm.

And then, of course, the moon and falcon Rondal gets sheared in half. That's symbolism. Probably. Yes. Yeah. That's it. Blind with arrogance as they were, even the knights and lords of the vale could see what was happening below them yet her sister could not enough servardus lady liza called down finish him now my baby is growing tired yikes yikes uh servardus gives it a good effort to follow commands but it all goes

awry his sword breaks on the statue of Alyssa, then Bronn shoves the weeping woman onto Vardis. Vardis is trapped by Alyssa Arryn and Bronn delivers the killing blow. That's a metaphor. Two blinded by grief and by Liza's

machinations, both of the grieving mothers have doomed Vardis to his gallant veil death rip sir vardus egan you never wanted this gig and then like a lot of lawyers with shitty clients the job ended up killing you you tried yeah i mean i don't know that lies is grieving but yeah allegedly right I mean she has some deep seeded scarring in her soul that she's probably grieving from

in my opinion in her own way in a way well it's quiet now and Bronn spits out a tooth is it over mother? the lord of the eerie asked no Catelyn wanted to tell him.

It's only now beginning. Yes, Lysa said glumly, her voice as cold and dead as the captain of her guard. Ah, comparing again with our Ned chapter. The rebellion language is here. No, Ned said with sadness in his voice. Now it ends. But here for Kat? No, she thinks.

It's only now beginning. We've been bringing up these elements of trial, injustice, and rebellion, and, you know, we haven't actually chatted about the big event that sparked the rebellion, which we're now kind of seeing a redux of here in the Vale in this ridiculous trial. which we're now kind of seeing a redux of here in the Vale in this ridiculous trial. How fitting that some 15, 20 years ago, Jon Arryn protected his wards in the Vale as Aerys called for them to answer for a trial by fire which was seemingly and wildly unfair and uncalled for. He put both Brandon and Rickard through this trial, and now Lysa's recreating her own version of this affair right just as horrifying the prospect is that if Tyrion's found guilty by this rando's sword movements he's going out the

moon door for funsies and dying yes it's a fantastic connection and yes the language absolutely parallels one another and I think it's meant to right like i mean caitlin's right she knows how all the pieces are moving now and that this is it and that tyrian whether he escapes or dies there's like this is not how probability works but and i'm gonna just say it that there were like two out of three chances and this was one of them and now it begins the other one is she keeps him as prisoner and then they're able to figure shit out right but liza couldn't take that chance so she's like i gotta get rid of tyrian one of two ways lord robert is all like can i make the little man fly now and tyrian is like not this one happy to leave in the turnip basket now honor be damned

i love that because it was called out before that he did not want to ride in it because he's like i don't think lord tywin would want his son riding with turnips and now he's just like yeah fuck it we're going down with the turnips done with this shit and eliza is about to protest when tyrian reminds her of the honor of house erin's words in regards to the outcome of this trial and i'm just like was liza like really just about to deny tyrian justice yes for a moment uh the whole time i totally think that she would have um because you know she's not she's obviously not above extrajudicial judicial killing given that she murdered her husband true the problem the problem for her is that she like went out of her way to make this big fucking show and gather everyone here for the big match and if she hadn't done that if she had

just done it like had a trial like in the morning with just her and there wasn't anybody else to see the fight afterwards if it's the same result she probably throws tyrian and braun out the moon door and just tells everyone that well vardis won but whoops he died of his wounds right afterwards so sad anyway bye it's over that's it that's what she would have done i think yeah i don't know if she could have gotten away with it though every time anyone's like a trial by combat everyone whispers and like oh my god a child by combat exciting exciting everyone wants to go it becomes like this big deal yeah that's true and this is like bloodlust for the veil right like these men are also hankering for some battle for anything for like a breath of blood to hit their nostrils

because they've been denied it this whole time yeah it reminds me of the original karate kid movie i don't know if this is before it probably is but like there's that scene where everybody thinks danny larusso is not gonna fight and then there's like a whisper that look wait danny larusso's gonna fight and then the next person's like danny larusso's gonna fight and then everybody's like danny larusso is gonna fight? And then everybody's like, Danny LaRusso is gonna fight! And that's kind of like how Trials by Combat are. It is like that. It is like that. And everyone's gonna show up there.

Everyone's gonna be there, watch that go down. There is also, I think you're right, Liza would have done it if Tyrion... Tyrion's smart enough. He's a smart guy. He could be his own lawyer with the the kinds with the cloth suits probably he could have gone i could see tyrian going to law school oh totally but there is irony like maybe the point isn't that in terms of the house erin words as high

as honor honor maybe isn't that high maybe it isn't something to aspire to. The books show us a lot of different kinds of honor, right? And that the honor from the social norms of Westeros is maybe amongst the basis. It's like maybe the lowest form of like any standard to measure yourself by. And that we see a lot of people who dishonor themselves for a greater good, right?

And that ends up in some ways being the greatest honor right like ned dishonoring himself to save john and later sanza and the errands may seem like they have put honor first but in practice as we see it kind of feels like a farce and arguably perhaps it runs contrary to house tully um because i think there's a reason why in the tully house words they put honor last it's family first then duty then honor and that's also what ned did and it is clearly not what liza did yeah honor was the only thing she like just barely kind of held on to but the purest veneer of it never learned that word liza missed out on that one i got through family i got to the duty part but i tuned out at the honor part i'm so sorry

so sorry and again sweet robin is not exactly inheriting the best features right uh from his mother he begins to throw a tantrum because he doesn't get to make the little man fly big chaotic energy over here huge chaotic energy oh my god so much i i love all of the veil chapters so much if only because they hammer home that i made the right call when i decided not to have kids if If my kid was Sweet Robin, I don't know. That's a gamble. If your kid is Sweet Robin, that's on you

as a parent. As we're seeing with Liza, that was on her. That's true. It is a lot on her. I think your kids would be better than that. Maybe. Let's not risk it. We won't see.

No risking it for this bisking it no way um yeah big chaotic energy across the whole veil thing in general i know and liza finally comes to right she agrees to release tyrian and bron that the gods have seen fit to proclaim him innocent probably because he is innocent and she commands their release with supplies weapons the whole shebang wait for it to the high road Kat and Tyrion

have already been on it what a death sentence right a second death sentence but Tyrion is great he does not miss a beat here and he recovers it with his mocking wit take it away clint the high road tyrian lannister said liza allowed herself a faint satisfied smile it was another sort of death sentence catalan realized tyrian lannister must know that well yet the dwarf favored lady erin with a mocking bow as you command my lady

he said i believe we know the way boom you know he comes out of it with his own mini veil army you may not like him but you gotta admit he has style I find myself increasingly fond again of Tyrion in these chapters. Right? Right, yeah. It's hard because you're supposed to be. I mean, it's George's fave. Of course you want to like Tyrion. It's one of the best.

It's one of the faves. He's clever and sharp and hysterical. And yeah, he's shitty as he goes along, but everyone's got a little bit of Tyrion in them, right? In our hearts, that little bit of tyrian in them right in our hearts that little bit of bullied nerd that uh wants to just be mocking and sarcastic and biting all the time and i don't know i really appreciate him in these chapters i think that part of the reason why he's george's favorite character is the parts where he thinks you're supposed to like dislike

him later on where he becomes shitty and and those darker parts and he's excited i think where he's going to take tyrian's character and really dive into that but yeah i mean like at the beginning he's portrayed like so fun right and we've been seeing him through catlin's eyes and catlin's like i don't know tyrian might be legit yeah yeah i i mean it's just such a great ending for a chapter and i like i imagine tyrian sort of winking at the camera and then the deal with its sunglasses come down over his face as he walks out and then like there's a random explosion behind him for no reason um it's just such like a fuck you ending that i i i can't get over how good it is the explosion is robert aaron in the

background that's the explosion yeah absolutely and like it does feel you know it's it's a great mic drop as he exits and he does it so well and i mean i kind of wonder right you we've been talking about the godless gods would maybe the gods really did show Tyrian's innocence, though obviously it's a bit of luck and a lot of bronze skill, because clearly he doesn't survive the next trial, but whatever. He is given his sentence, right? His sentencing happens literally right after his trial, which doesn't always happen.

Very, very efficient system here. Tyrian does survive the High Road high road though coming back to this metaphor of the high road versus the low road right uh that we discussed before and tyrian has in many ways taken the high road throughout his entire debacle in the veil at the eerie he has tried to keep it above board done everything by the law because he knows that he has to. And, you know, it's when he's on the high road, the literal high road this time, that he starts to wander off the metaphorical one as he starts to promise revenge to gain that mini Vale army and promising the Vale of Arryn to them. Yeah, that's a good point. in promising the Vale of Arryn to them.

Yeah, that's a good point. We definitely will have a return of Tyrion to something with the Vale, maybe not to the Vale necessarily, but especially with Sansa being so closely connected now to it. If they do reunite, I imagine the Vale may be a topic that comes up between the two of them. Maybe he will offer her some of his own thoughts about how he would like to see the veil progress.

Perhaps. Perhaps. Well, I think that about wraps up our episode for Catalan 7. Clint, I was so excited to have you on to get this lawful perspective from you, and you did not disappoint me. Thank you for providing us with your fashion hour as well as some really really really intensive speculation about you know the the knight to lawyer idea is just so good and i think it does inform the plot a little bit here

this this trial was bullshit so i we couldn't have done it without you no i i really appreciate it and thank you so much for having me on as i, it is an honor and a privilege to be a girl gone canon. Oh my God, it's official. A family duty honor. Oh my God. Well, again, very blessed to have you on. And please tell us all where we can find you on the internet one last time. You can find me on Twitter at ClintW on Twitter.

You can also find my blog at LawsofIceandFire.com. But I especially invite you to check out the Learn to Hand podcast. We have had a lot of fun talking a lot about these issues. We had an episode with Stanford Frazier last year about Tyrion's trials in general. And then we've had lots of episodes about all of your favorite characters and some of your least favorite characters and how they invoke these sorts of legal and ethical and, I don't know, good government dilemmas

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For your sakes. Guns out, sons out. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye.