Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 125 — AGOT Catelyn VIII

Episode Date: May 14, 2021

Catelyn reunites with her firstborn to find that Robb has grown a beard... and an army. Even if she's unsure of her son's new role, she knows that he must be confident if he's going to have any chance of success.   ---   Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl] Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage

Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon Reads A Song Of Ice And Fire, Episode 125, Catelyn eight in a game of thrones i am one of your hosts chloe and i am another one of your hosts eliana and yes we have traveled very very far with catelyn it's only been a book it's only been eight chapters but we've gone a lot of places yeah as our lightning round will totally depict and we'll talk about it in a bit a lot happens between catalan 7 and catalan 8 we're in a whole new place with lots of action it's a fast-paced exposition full chapter with a lot of good decisions happening or bad decisions happening depending on how you view it yeah i mean would it be a catelyn chapter if we did not get the exposition on the story and the politics of westeros and the north you know there's a lot

happening in the chapters before this chapter that really inform it right like with ned sending out the brotherhood we'll talk about it all in a minute but first things first a little housekeeping this month we are doing a special patreon episode for patrons in the stranger tier the five dollar and above tier this month is going to be an episode on the free cities of a song of ice and fire and aliana i guess drumroll we have decided what what is the free city yeah caitlin's not the only one going a lot of places we're all going to pentos oh my god all inclusive yeah we actually go to that in this book too so it's it all works it all goes together we thought it was a perfect transition while we're revisiting a game of thrones and the early parts of the story and talk about some of the later parts, right, the influence Pentos will have to come. Yeah, and speaking of things to come,

we have our Discord brunch slash happy hour for May coming up later this month on Sunday, May 23rd, 2 to 4 p.m. EDT, Eastern Daylight Savings Time. And, you know that theme, right? That theme is a little bit about what's in the future. Kind of. Yes, our theme for our brunch is going to be dreams. Dreams of spring. Yeah.

We're actually doing our potluck presentation this month. So if you are on our discord, you are a thunder to your member of the Patreon or above. You're also probably a little crazy like we are because we're always posting weird stuff. There's like memes. There's so much canceling all the time. There's all the fun TV shows to talk about and books and just really good

conversation. So come on over check out that tier on patreon at patreon.com slash girls gone canon but our brunch usually every month we either play games or do a potluck presentation where people do three to five slides on a theme right which this month's theme is of course dreams of spring or dreams of whatever right i know a lot of us are dreaming of a future where we can do things uh so that will probably be a popular theme right yeah and as we said right you can interpret that theme as loosely as you want right it could be as you said just dreams and it happens to be spring now it could be a dream that you're having this spring. Right?

Like, I don't remember any of my dreams this spring. None of them were that noteworthy. And now I'm probably gonna have like a super weird dream tonight. And we'll report back next week. Yeah. Get a new dream of spring. Three slides on it. Oh my god.

It's a fun time brunch, right? right you can it's brunch slash happy hours you can sip a drink or have a snack and it's just games and there's some fun giveaways for fandom and community related kind of merchandise and get to know yous it's fun we have fun so come hang out this is fun look at all the fun we're having i feel like I've said that almost every episode so far. Well, it is Catelyn. It is Catelyn. And we did run into Tyrion. Some of the other places that we're going are actually other series, right?

We do not only cover A Song of Ice and Fire here. We also talk about His Dark Materials. Yes. And we are actually finishing a companion trilogy book that's right there are lots of books out for his dark materials if you're not familiar and we're reading a book from the companion trilogy which is kind of like a prequel sequel sandwich book you know it's weird but it's a great book and we're finishing it we're finishing it this month we're hoping to record with one of our friends uh it's semi-confir we're finishing it we're finishing it this month we're hoping to record

with one of our friends uh it's semi-confirmed that she's going to come on she's hoping to come on it's our friend holly hunt from the dust podcast so really excited to have her on if she can make it and excited to finish labelle sauvage not in a mean way just in a a good book ready for the final the climax the final confrontations of the story speaking of the dust podcast not only might Holly join us we actually recently caught up with Matt from the dust

aka double M or as he says also aka hey you and we joined Matt for their watch through right their re-watch of the his dark materials television show not just the books to get together you know you and watch his dark materials season one episode four armor and the format is pretty fun it's like you can watch the episode with us yeah it's really fun really fun. The timestamps and everything are there that you can start at the same

time as us, queue it up, and enjoy our hysterical if not misguided banter. I thought it was fun. I thought it was good. I know, I had fun. Yeah, I had a great time. So if you want to just sit back, relax, watch an

episode, it will be hard, I think, to listen to the episode, but whatever, you've probably already seen it. Get our great commentary and Matt's great commentary. And he like points out the music, which is super cool. As you're watching the episode. gonna go back and look at our episodes because we did cover series one and series two of the better adapted hbo book adaptation tv show his dark materials series um it's not tv it's hbo but we we did cover both of those series and i was going to go back to our notes and i decided not to and i went in and just like observed what my brain thought at the time at my now, you know, advanced past series one brain. And it was fun. I discussed some of the things I'm, you know, a very static character at times, you know, I grow, I'm also static, right?

The nature of our world, the contradictions and some things, some of you might recognize from our episodes when i bring them up but other ones such as the size of yorick bernison's nose that's new observation oh that was in the flash that was you know that was honestly that was improvised she did it live yeah absolutely well before we go live here eliana i do want to shout out this message we got from our patron our friend haven she messaged us and said hello ladies last week's episode with clint is my new favorite episode that you have done oh it has me wondering if we should see sansa and aria's relationship as a sort of foil to liysa and Catelyn's. What a thought.

I'm like, here's a ribbon. It is a brilliant thought. You should hold this ribbon forever. A great thought. Because especially when you consider that Arya and Sansa are likely going to have to reckon with their differences and their relationship with Littlefinger in their midst. Yes. Right?

They will have to complete this circle of trust and sew it back together. And I think that's so important because of that rift between Kat and Liza and coming to trust each other, maybe much like what Kat and Liza used to have as girls in their childhood back before, you know, when innocence was a high, you know? Yeah, and I love that you use that metaphor of sewing it back together because both of them you know have their ways of sewing right they both do that um they are both dancers of a sort as well there's a lot of things that connect their stories and i love this point that haven had brought up because you know in regards

to how sanza and aa are described it fits perfectly with some of the things we were talking about last chapter of Lysa being like the moon because Arya is literally described as the moon by Ned right and in a way like Arya is in constant but in a she's in constant very differently from Lysa right, just as the moon has many faces, that's used as a metaphor for Liza's moods, but Arya literally has many faces like the moon. A bag of them, if it's to be believed. Or at least, like, a room of them. A cellar. Oh, come into my wine cellar. Also, in the other room of my cellar are faces. I store them. My cellar of of face this is a vintage from 20 years ago oh my god i mean they would keep bast in the north eliana oh my god actually that's very true at least they won't rot do they put like formaldehyde do you think on those anyways um so i love that and also i'm

just excited for aria and sansa working together in the later books. That's something I'm super looking forward to. A reunion for sure. Absolutely. I wanted to call it one last thing. And I thank you so much, Haven, for telling us that that's your new favorite episode. I wanted to call out this tweet that we got that I thought was so funny from Archswath on Twitter. That they, going into the episode last week with clint we're expecting it to be about the law which it is but the reality of the episode is that clint joined us to talk

about fashion honestly i clint did all the marks you know like he hit every ring he was like and i brought a fashion hour i was like oh my god clint you brought me a fashion i know it was a little and you know beforehand you all didn't get to hear our beforehand but we kept joking it was a swath foreplay it was very smooth we had a lot of fun banter and i loved having clint on i can't wait to have him back again absolutely yes but until then back to catelyn there's a lot happening oh yeah this is this is a thunderstorm round i don't think it's a lightning round it's a derrick don darian round it's a derrick don darian round and don darian we go let's kick it off with john five the boys graduate the night's Watch training school to become

Night's Watch men, but Sam Tarly doesn't quite make the grade. John stands up for his friend, asking Maester Aemon to use Sam's skills and make him a steward. Tyrion 6. Tyrion befriends and negotiates a peace and an agreement with the mountain clans and the Vale. The Vale. Shows you what taking the high road does. Mm-hmm. Eddard XI. Eddard acts as king while Robert's out hunting. He strips Gregor Clegane of his lands and sends a force under Derek Donbarian to give the king's justice. Sansa III.

Sansa accidentally shows Eddard the light when he tells her that they must return to Winterfell Eddard 12 Ned corners Cersei in the godsblood but may have made a pretty big mistake in showing his hand too soon Daenerys 5 Daenerys eats a stallion heart

showing the khalasar not only her strength but her son's strength as well. Viserys is given the crown. Fit for a king. Eddard XIII. Robert, another king, dies. Ned Hope's little finger isn't a little fucker. Bad news.

Jon VI. Jon gets sorted into Hufflepuff. a little fucker. Bad news. John 6. John gets sorted into Hufflepuff. Ghost finds a hand in the snow. Is that foreshadowing? The Hufflepuff part? No, the hand. Ghost finding a hand and Ned is the hand.

Oh, in the snow! Ned, the snow! Snow! Etterd 14. Ned's household gets murder-trained by the Lannisters after Littlefinger betrays him. Arya 4.

No, I'm 30. Jesus! Why are you this way? Arya escapes her dancing lesson, having to kill her way out of King's Landing. Sansa IV After mistaking the queen for a sympathetic player, Sansa is brought to the council to send letters to her family, begging them to lay their swords aside and bend the knee. John VII. Bodies of Night's Watchmen are found, and in the night, John slays one of the reanimated corpses, saving Elsie Mormont. Bran VI. The northern hosts begin to arrive, and Robb prepares to march south.

Daenerys VI, unable to convince Khal Drogo to take the Seven Kingdoms, Dany goes to the market, where a poisoning attempt on the Khaleesi is made. This pushes Khal Drogo over the line, who promises to win Dany her very uncomfortable chair. I mean, it's true. It's in the speech. It is. We've arrived at Moat Cailin with Catelyn and the Blackfish to meet Rob's host. Catelyn and Rob realize they have no option. They must win or die.

Rob decides to bring his support to Riverrun. Yes, and so the chapter starts where Catelyn's trying to see into the distance, and she cannot make them out this far, but she already knows that the white banners approaching could only be the direwolf of House Stark. The gods were good. And as you can see from our lightning round and where we are this chapter,

a lot has happened for Catelyn since the last chapter, and now she has traveled very far frequent flyer miles that's good i just think that she's calling it too early on this whole good thing i think she should hold out just a few more chapters a bit yeah uh she reins her horse up bows her head and thanks and prepares to meet with Willis Manderly and the Blackfish. Wendell and Willis follow them as they trot briskly toward the banners. 1,500 men, 20-odd knights, just as many squires, 200 mounted lances, swordsmen, free riders, and the rest are foot

armed with spears, spikes, and tridents. Wyman had remained at white harbor strengthening the defenses if i had thought to see war again in my lifetime i should have eaten a few less eels he told catalan when he met her ship slapping his massive belly with both hands i'd love to revisit this and see the manderleys at the start of the story yeah especially after visiting with Davos, right? We were just there in the harbor with Wyman, learning from him that he did go ahead and do as he was told when he was in the north from Bran and from Catelyn and Eddard's call and their messages. I also think it's great to see the similar position that Davos took to Catelyn,

right, as she greets other great lords and learns of their rebellions and meets kings and constantly does this kind of diplomacy shtick we're going to get into like with Stannis and Renly. Absolutely. And yeah, as you said, it's great to see the Manderlys here again and find out, as you said, that they did all the things. And yeah, it's interesting. He says he didn't think to see war again in his lifetime that makes me sad it makes me sad for wyman you know he was like we did it there's gonna be peace now and happily ever after and as we know from these books that a lot of people don't have any happily ever afters but anyway some cold ending in the woods yeah and some of that is the case for members of

house manderley right for some of these boys that wyman sends his sons uh who are both older than caitlin interestingly and they take after their father caitlin pities the horses that they ride on and thinks of how they are not unlike their father and looks, but that their personalities are different from each other. And Willis is quiet, formal, and Wendell is loud and boisterous. And while they're messy, and I guess she's like, I guess they're not very good to look upon, not very pleasant on the eyes. Catelyn likes them well enough, and they got her to to rob and that was all that matters. And so this is one of those moments where we do get to see some of Cat's prejudices,

right? We've talked about her pragmatism previously and this is a little different from that. And she does learn to move past them, right? Because the Manderlys did do what she wanted, and she finds them competent. And I mean, I guess in her defense, I don't know if this is really in her defense, you know, a lot of people judge the Manderlys for their weight. And some of that, I guess, is intentional in the framing and the way that George writes it in these earlier chapters. It's in Bran's chapters as well. And it does sort of, it's sort of meant to mislead us a little about them for that setup

for, you know, as you were talking about, Chloe, those Davos chapters that we covered. Yeah, and I mean, I don't think it's targeted as much as like Doran, for example, me and the whole disability club, we're not going to call up and be like, George, when you ruin everything about Doran's life, including Doran, we'll be calling you, you know, like, I'm not about to do that no it is kind of interesting that catelyn is like well they're fat but they're all right i guess she's like they're okay for being fat that is the subtext okay catelyn but yeah i mean i get it she's a proper lady right like and interestingly enough as we see from their great wealth and prosperity, though, like, it does remind me of how, you know, back in the olden days, the old medieval times, you know, weight was also a class signifier.

They have great bounty and they grew up well. That's true. That's a great point. And they thought there was going to be peace. You know, they were optimists. Yeah. Good for them. And I'm glad that Kat got over it.

She was like, you know what? They're nice enough. They're here to do a job and they're also being pleasant and I'm being pleasant. She's just fine with them. And that's fine. Whatever. They're good at their job. That's all Katlyn asks of people. That's why she's like, give all those men silver.

They were good at their job you existed here's some money i wish someone would do that to me oh rob had sent riders to the east which she was happy to hear of of him being so careful even if the lannisters would be coming from the south. She can only half believe her son is leading a host to war. He was just a boy a year ago, and now she trails off in thought, and the outriders that Rob sent spot the blue-green banners of the Manderlys and hail them warmly, leading them to high, dry ground that's meant for camp. The men tend to the fires and the horses, and Catelyn and her uncle present Lord Tully's respects to the liege lord. The letters that Catalin sent at the Eyrie do seem to have paid off, right? The banners have been assembling the last few chapters. We see that in the last Bran chapter as they start to show up

and Rob leads them south, but it seems her letters got across. That they did. and the wagons are full of hard bread and salt beef they're making their way to the lord's pavilion and cat recognizes a couple of these banners including the brown and orange bull moose banners as the hornwoods she glimpses the walls and towers of moat kale and beyond and again exposition it's a catlin chapter introduction to the manderleys and here some of those other houses right we're gonna get a few of them later but these houses political significance comes forward a lot more in book two and yeah we were introduced to them in brand's chapters earlier but still exposition anyway and i think this is a more intimate look right of seeing kind of like from an adult's lens is the other thing.

Bran doesn't notice all of the interesting things about these men that Catelyn and Rob are about to notice for us. Yeah. She is like, oh, there's the towers, Moat Cailin, or I guess what's remained of them. They're described as immense blocks of scattered basalt laying in the boggy soil. And I like that word,gy and a curtain wall is destroyed the keep had rotted away a thousand years ago there's not even timber to mark where it stood and we have this description of all that was left of the great stronghold of the first men were three towers three where there had once been 20 if the tale tellers could be believed oh yes 20 good towers

oh yes the 20 tale tellers of the good towers yes 20 good men telling stories the 20 good towers I do love the description of this place it says like a child it looks like a child had

scattered building blocks around because it is made by the children of the forest yeah it definitely is a place and it's so early on that it's such a place of lore right like you feel this immense magical power and lore that's seeping into the story suddenly in catalan's plot again and we get a little more of a description of those three remaining towers. The gatehouse tower looks strong. The drunkard's tower leans like a man about to spew wine in the gutter, thus its name. And the slender children's tower had lost half its crown. And I love the description of that loss because it says it looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the

crenellations along the tower top and spit the rubble across the bog it's straight up dragon vibes right you're like wow do you think a great beast clawed its way up there and ate it like a dragon uh even though this was far before the conquest right like it's hinted at that this was a thousand years ago and i don't know there's a lot going on in these beautiful past couple chapters in prose especially in the previous danny chapter thinking of dragons and this is great it shows them entering these destroyed places and especially with cadillac later going to old stones there's a lot of that vibe to this, but this from Dany was great. The day was warm and cloudless, the sky a deep blue. When the wind blew, she could smell the rich scents of grass and earth.

As her litter passed beneath the stolen monuments, she went from sunlight to shadow and back again. Dany swayed along, studying the faces of dead heroes and forgotten kings. She wondered if the gods of burned cities could still answer prayers. There's a lot of hints here that some of these historical questions George is trying to raise in prompt for us to think about in these worlds between the First Men and the Children and the Andals and the Targaryens and the dragon lords of valyria and these stories uh and the children of course are very much comparative to the crannog men right

of today as we get the introduction to the crannog men in this story very soon and uh the first men the stark's ancestors right and that impending idea of a Targaryen return of dragons in the book and then the idea of the munch of a dragon off of a building. But another thing that feels really significant here is that it feels like immense foreshadowing for Winterfell burning down and being destroyed across the next books, along with some of the Theon foreshadowing we're going to talk about. And of course, this next bit with vengeful spirits. Yes, there's quite a bit of things that uh talk about vengeful spirits or hinted it a little in this chapter but that's a great these are great analyses of the towers and what we're getting through them mine was stupid um mine i i don't know why the three towers maybe you were talking about the dragons think about them but in a different way right like the three heads of the dragon one bitten off and i was

like maybe the tree was sprouting randomly it's like bran but i'm pretty sure that what i just said is tinfoil and it's stretching it but and you know going through this again right now it also makes me think the children's tower lost half its crown and i know that there are people who have theorized i don't know how plausible this is or not right that's not one of the things that i'm strong at picking out or analyzing when it comes to this story i think just in terms of discussing will the children of the forest bring the hammer of the waters down at the neck as they did at the stepstones long long ago and if they did i mean you know brand obviously has connections with the children of the forest half the crown and that division at the end of westeros between the north and the rest of the kingdoms

manu manuclear bomb who has been on with us before to talk about the show and the pilot episode of the show actually he has a pretty immense theory of that that that is going to be the reason that Bran will probably actually be forced to do it or that Bran will do it with his mind and help bring the hammer down to make that separation and to kind of salvage some of the peace amongst the kingdoms right in the aftermath and end Game of Thrones. And I find that really interesting. And I do think that there's something about that half a crown representing kind of the children being enslaved, right,

by people that came after them and people that drove them out of their homes. And also that the only ones that were able to survive married right and kind of slowly watered down and traded downwards from uh the marsh king for example married off and to the starks and slowly gave it and formed this big new union and this big coalition of miniature states almost and it's interesting half a crown you know they were kings in their own right kings and queens yeah and their land was invaded and they were driven out yeah yeah what menu says makes sense right it makes sense thematically which i'm sure he's discussed um in terms of brand's first few lessons about the neck swinging the sword beheadings so oh yeah it's a metaphor i get it

yeah kaboom boom metaphors the sacrifice the things that you're giving away metaphors that's a metaphor that's symbolism thank you amy for those for those memes that you have made for us if you haven't seen it on our twitter our friend amy made some great illustrations to go along with last week's episode well the blackfish says that gods have mercy when he sees moat caitlin's rubble and caitlin's like well you know some call it a death trap uh but she does mention ned assured her this ruin is much more formidable than it looks the bogs are impenetrable full of quicksand suck holes teeming with snakes okay so two thoughts first this kind of plays in a little with the beginning of the chapters what

we were just talking about with the manderleys and not judging a book by its cover cat is telling brendan the same lesson and we know this because it's a reread, so we know that that happens. And also, though, I don't know. She said it's impenetrable, and every time someone says that, I'm like, that sounds like a lie to me now. When you say impenetrable, I'm like, that's a little...

Yeah. That's a little confident. I was thinking of the veil. Yeah. I was thinking of the veil, that she now has gone to the next impregnable fortress impregnable impenetrable i'm like stop jinxing everywhere everyone and it is made similarly right because to assault it right you'd have to have archers would be defending an arm you would have to wade through the muck cross the lizard lion scale the mossy

slimy walls and expose themselves to archers like it is impregnable it has the same battle plan as the eerie that they would rain down fire as they climb yeah it just it feels like something else it's always something around the around the corner and again goes back to as you were saying the news theory yeah there's got to be one more thing because maybe impenetrable it is in fact penetrable maybe maybe i mean i do love that because it's like a magical choice too right it's like the sad it's also like the idea of frodo being like i can't go back sam and lord of the rings i know that you don't know it but frodo being like i can't go back, Sam and Lord of the Rings. I know that you don't know it. But Frodo being like, I can't go back. I'm too scarred. It reminds me of some of Jon's

possible endgame, right, of that. This is the physical cutoff from the north to the south. So, like, for Jon, he'll never be able to go back either way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Even though, yeah, and that's sad. In a book series, that's like like we should start back

what if you can't what if you can't tears you know back in catalan's chapter catalan is also kind of grim right like she's just trying to keep her spirits high but she looks at her uncle gives him a grim smile and she's like when night falls there are said to be ghosts cold vengeful spirits of the north who hunger for southern blood i mean interestingly doesn't she kind of become this spirit in a way right like she does hunger for the southern blood of the people that betrayed the north yes absolutely and brend Brendan reacts to that by chuckling and is like, well, maybe remind me not to stay here that long. I'm Sotherin, Kat. And I think that what you've called out here is really interesting. And I'm going to ramble a bit because it speaks to something that's rubbed me the wrong way about the way that Kat is described sometimes by people. cat is described sometimes by people i love that you have pointed out that she is that cold vengeful spirit of the north because if brinton thinks that he's in danger because he's a southern and cat is just like yeah isn't that cool and fun and she becomes that vengeful spirit it speaks to

her not necessarily just being like a southerner anymore right and this is something that i've been working through since we've started these cat chapters and thinking through discussion of her character and we've been emphasizing over and over how cat has really internalized the northern legends and their beliefs in ways that ned himself again doesn't always get or he ignores. And yeah, sure, Cat feels a little bit at ease around the godswood. She doesn't really always get it. But I think in some ways that kind of shows that, yeah, she fears it, but she respects it. And that speaks again to her actually believing in its power. And a lot of Southerners don't believe that.

And that speaks to a Northern faith in its own kind of way. It's the same chapter where we get a better look at the Manderlys who migrated north, right? They were a southern house exiled by the Gardener Kings and where Cat thinks of her son later this chapter she's like, he looks like a Tully, she thought, yet he's still his father's son and Ned taught him well. And we see her also interact with the northern lords. They Lords. They show her respect, partially because they kind of have to, but whatever. But they also listen to her commands when she tells them to all get out of the room. And I say all this because I want to bring up how Catelyn is a

Stark and not just a name. She's both a Stark and a Tully. She's straddling between both of those worlds. And I emphasize that because in trying to figure out why it bothers me so much when people say like she's not really of the North or she's never going to really belong there, right, or whatever, I'm like, well, Catelyn's been in the North 15 years. She's done her duty. She's birthed the northern heirs she's kind of semi-running it right now in some ways right she can command the men and bring swords and the heirs that she's birthed can skin change and she was the one who told ned that the wolves are pretty important and tied to his northern house and it just bothers me when people say also along those same lines that Sansa is more Slytherin than her siblings because of her Tully looks. When we see that of all her siblings,

she's the most like Ned other than maybe Jon, right? And as pointed out here, Rob looks like a Tully, but he's a lot like Ned. And I have come to the realization that this bothers me, especially in this current moment in our real world, because it feels to me like no matter how much Kat has assimilated, people, and I say this including fans, don't see it as enough. Even though she reads the Northern Omens, right, it grates at me, right, that the feeling that she's not enough because it reminds me of like how no matter what I do, because I'm not white, I'm still never going to be considered American. Like I have family members who have been here since the 70s or the 80s who, like Katlyn, lives between two worlds and cultures, and they've done a lot to assimilate. And of course course something still seems

strange to us right things that but also things back from where they immigrated from are also strange and unfamiliar to them too right we see that happen in caitlin's chapters when she has to go to river run and things are different things have changed since she was a girl. Some of it is because of that assimilation. And I'm just like, do my family members not belong here in America too? Are we never going to be safe here? Are we never going to be seen as being American enough? Same as cats never going to be seen as Northern enough. My friends, I grew up in an immigrant community. A lot of my friends are immigrants or from immigrant families who came here for different reasons. Some of them, their parents are refugees. Do they not belong

here because they look different just because Kat looks different? And I don't, I'm not saying that Kat herself is written as an immigrant story. I don't think George was there. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna give George that much credit. And I'm not trying to be like, oh, you can't criticize Kat, right? You know, there's that in the discourse right now. You can criticize Kat. And I'm just saying that there are shades of things in her story that echo my life and the lives of people I love. And it took me a while to understand, like, why does that bother me? And I kind of want to encourage us to shift perspective on drawing such a hard line on Catlin's identity just because she started out as a Southerner or a Tully. Thank you for sharing your perspective on that with not just obviously me, but I assume other people who will hear this, you know, I'm

sure this may be heard by another person someday. Maybe i appreciate i really appreciate your perspective on this and i do think it feels unfair right those angles of a southerner a totally as these identifiers of her she does so much to embrace and preserve both of the cultures in her everyday life and respect them and i think that's really something significant especially here in this chapter right she seems to be kind of much more at home as we're going to see with these other northern lords she feels a little more familiar with people that she knows whether it's just because she can read them better than she was betrayed by reading her sister incorrectly or if it's just you know

like she she just knows how to treat with these people and i think that's really significantly drawn that's a great point yeah that you can see the difference between how she feels with them and their dynamics versus yeah southern house the power too the power shift is really obvious at liza's court she couldn't get a word in edgewise to her sister, didn't have any power or control in court, couldn't call for people to leave the room. In fact, Liza went against that on purpose. And here, she is confident and is able to step into a room and be like, I know you'll all forgive me when I say you have to leave the room now. When I say you have to leave the room now. Yeah. And as you said, it's because over the years, she's shown them respect so that they know to return that respect to her. Right.

And, of course, Ned has also shown a lot of them respect. And we can see that respect come through in her telling these stories to Brynden and being like, this is what the significance of this place is for the Northerners. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, not everyone is written like that right i think that there are ways that we can read that and probably we'll discuss that in some other characters and chapters and again i don't think cat's written with that in mind just it can be seen there and i'm just i'm always like i don't know but why not why can't she be why can't she be a Stark now, too? Anyway.

Yeah, I mean, she spent half her life a Tully and the other half a Stark. When is it enough? Yeah, and it's something that we allow Theon a little, right? Because he, I mean, it was his childhood. He was forced to move, right? And he straddles between two familial identities. And I think that's just a big theme right of a song of ice and fire it doesn't necessarily matter always what your blood is or your name obviously that'll inform how you grow up and what you learn and how you're treated as we see with tyrian but that doesn't mean that you have to be a certain way i think it's important too that like have to be a certain way i think it's important too that like that doesn't mean that how you were born defines you exactly and i think that's a way better way i think we were feeling each other you know in that moment we were infinite eliana oh my god

back at back at moat cail, where they too are infinite, they gaze at the standards that have been raised atop the towers. The Stark standard is of course on all three, but from the Drunkard's Tower hangs the Karstark Sunburst and the Great John's Giant and Chains on the Children's Tower. The Gatehouse Tower had been made Rob's seat, and the Stark banner flies alone there. They make for the gatehouse, Brynden and Wendell behind her, and she finds Robb surrounded by his lord's bannermen,

a pile of maps and papers in front of him. He speaks intently with Roose and the Great Jon, and he doesn't notice his mother at first, but Greywyn does. Greywyn's golden eyes meet Catelyn's, and the lords fall silent, which causes Robb to look up. Mother, he said, his voice thick with emotion. Catelyn wanted to run to him, to kiss his sweet brow, to wrap him in her arms and hold him so tightly that he would never come to harm. But here in front of his lords, she dared not. He was playing a man's part now, and she would not take that away from him. She stays at the far end of the slab of stone they use as table, and his wolf pads across the room to her. I love this line, it seemed bigger than a wolf ought to be.

Because, of course direwolves are bigger, but Rob is bigger than he ought to be, right? Bigger than a wolf ought to be, Bigger than a house Stark wolf should be. He's a man too grown than he's supposed to be at this point. He's supposed to have a couple years left in her eyes, she had hoped. He's growing and he thinks he's more grown than he is, like most of us do at that age. But Kat's balance in this chapter of letting Rob make some of his own mistakes with some nudges in the

wrong and right directions is admirable. The intimacy she shares with him and letting him make these choices and letting him be the leader, the man, the Lord in his Lord's voice, stepping into his father's shoes, being the patriarch. It's hard. I'm not a mom. I'm not a sibling, disclaimers, but I am a blatant control freak with a reluctant leader streak. And maybe I can relate to Kat and Rob in that, right? And in seeing my own mother, also another blatant control freak with leadership issues, have to hold back and watch me make my own mistakes in life, right? Like that is, that reminds me so much of this.

And I don't know, Rob is really putting himself in some direct danger as we go through this chapter of him leading the command in some aspects and for cat to pull back and be like yes you stupid idiot i'm going to let you charge headfirst into battle with swords at your face i'm gonna just let you do it that takes a lot yeah that takes a lot i mean that's hard for a mom who's supposed to be like no don, don't go scrape your knee. Kids, stay with me forever and ever until we get old and die. Never. Like that's that's mom logic, man. Yeah, and the way that you describe that at the end is so important in the context of the chapters we just came from, where Liza won't let her son do anything. where Liza won't let her son do anything.

It is so directly contrasted of Liza refusing to let Sweet Robin grow at all. Yeah. Forced Arrested Development, where Catlin's like, all right, he wants to grow, I guess I gotta let him. And part of what she's letting him grow... I mean, she's gotta let him, I guess. You know, you gotta let people make their own mistakes. It sounds like it's okay. Rob was blessed a little. She comments on his new beard. I don't know

how it looks. It sounds like it looks fine, but I'm skeptical. You all know my views on teenage boys and beards. Everybody just wait a little, you know? Don't do it. It doesn't look good. But maybe, again, those genes have really worked out for him. The combo of northern and everybody just wait a little you know don't don't do it it doesn't look good but maybe again those genes have really worked out for him the combo of northern and southern because the hair in his chin

is redder than his own hair catelyn says that she likes it and maybe this is her being a mom this is her coddling him a little tells her it makes him look like her brother edmure can't tell if that's a backhanded compliment graywind nips at her fingers playfully and goes back to the fire. I mean, everything in these lines, I'm like, Greywyn is a good boy. Deserves treats. He does deserve treats. Sir Helman Tallheart is the first Northman to follow Greywyn's lead. He comes across the room and he pays his respects to Catelyn.

And he presses his head to Catelyn and he presses his head against her hand and says, Lady Catelyn, you are fair as ever, a welcome sight in troubled times. After Helman, the Glovers, Galbert and Robat, the Great John and the rest come one by one. The last to pay his respect is Theon, who says he had not looked to see her here. And she responds, she had not thought to be here until she had landed in White Harbor and learned from Wyman that Rob called the banners. Good on them for telling her the news. Also these Theon exchanges are interesting considering that we put Jon's chapters right after Theon's because we wanted to contrast them as teenage boys who

did feel like outsiders in Winterfell and at at this moment, as we'll see throughout some of these exchanges, Catelyn is cordial, trusts Theon enough. She is always, as we know, wary about him, but she does treat him differently from Jon, despite the threat that Theon in many ways represents to her family, which, as you all know, does end up actually becoming a thing. This is a reread, and which again, sheds some light on

her treatment of john being a little more personal than just feeling threatened about inheritance that's a really good point it's obviously something very deeply personal yeah because like theon's annoying but not the same treatment yeah exactly john's less annoying than theon john's less annoying but a bigger threat to her personally it's very sad it is it is she reintroduces wendell manderly and introduces her uncle and mentions he has left her sister's service for hearse rob thanks them both for coming to join them and asks if roderick would be joining them too because Robb misses him. But he has gone back north, now named Cassilin, and is tasked with holding Winterfell alongside Maester Luwin who is a wise counselor but unskilled in the arts of war. And there's a couple interesting things here.

It might just be an exposition drop, but Catelyn just gave a whole hell of a lot of information to Theon and Roose that they later will use to their advantage in taking Winterfell. Roderick is very sweet, but obviously not a warrior, so to speak. And Theon also is the last to leave the room, we're going to notice. So I do wonder if he was just absorbing as much information as possible so he can, you know, stay up on the gossip. just absorbing as much information as possible so he can, you know, stay up on the gossip. Roderick indeed has gone north to his later demise, and Rob here says he misses him, but it's sad because it's kind of that feeling of, like, Roderick couldn't be there. Roderick is one of those childhood facilities, right?

He, like all things innocence, have to die for Rob's new role of being experienced. No more time for missing your masters-at- play things with your wooden swords as we're going to visit in this chapter it's it's war now this is war that's a great point because he's rob's teacher and rob can't lean on him anymore he has to make his own decisions and i mean it's sad for me too roderick was in many ways also my teacher he was our bff caitlin's bff and i mean him not being here and knowing what happens to him i'm just like no roderick also i think theon i don't know if he wanted more information or theon was like i want to feel important yeah i think it could be both yeah it could be both uh i almost listen if i'm talking about theon there is always an underlying tone of theon wanting to feel important that's true

that is actually literally him and yeah anyway broderick anyways the great john promises that winterfell is safe and that they'll shove their swords up Tywin's bug hole soon enough. Ugh. The movie's seven. And then it's on to the Red Keep to free the Ned. Bruce Bolton finally asks about the elephant in the room, which is like, so, Tyrion Lannister, what happened to him? Is he here? And Catelyn admits, uh, uh no i do not have him anymore and that she's no more

pleased with the rest of them about this but the gods and her fool sister chicals are full uh saw it fit to free him catlin reflects on her leaving of the eerie which has prompted her somewhat negative attitude on her sister so far in the chapter publicly negative caitlin had offered to take sweet robin to foster at winterfell and liza's rage had been frightening to behold sister no she had replied if you try to steal my son you will leave by the moon door ah you might remember back in sansa when she was upset about Peter, Baelish, with Sansa and said, niece or no, you'll leave by the main door if you try to take him. So I love that George revisits that later in Sansa and reuses that language. She's projecting.

I mean, I get it. Right. They, I guess, look the same, but she's real projecting on Sansa. Well, and there's nothing to be said after that. The lords want to ask her more, but Catelyn raises a hand and she's like, nope, I am going to retire. My journey has exhausted me.

I need to speak to Rob alone and I know you will forgive me, my lords. And I love, I love this moment of Catelyn ordering everyone out of the room and setting those terms. One of my favorite moments of the chapter. And here's where I go in another rant. This one's smaller than the last, where I saw a conversation on one of the many social media platforms where people talk about a song of ice and fire. Someone had posed a question aimed at people who don't like Cat.

It was a civil conversation, as far as I remember, but I didn't stick around to see how it went. But asking people who don't like Kat why they don't like Kat and also asking if to them she has any redeeming qualities. And there was someone who was saying that Kat talks back to all these high lords throughout the first three books and just gets away with it. And at first I thought they were praising that because I mean, like, hell yeah, talk back to those high lords. Fuck them. And, you know, talk back to Stannis, talk back to Renly. Those men need to be put in their places. And I was, I mean, yeah, I love it. Right. And then I realized as I read it more and like the way that they feel, I was like, oh my God, this is something that they think is a blunder on Kat's part they don't like that about Kat and you know sometimes people just don't

jive with the character that's fine you are entitled to like or dislike characters you don't always have to like them but I will like depending on your rationale raise my eyebrows a little because here the rationale of like you don't like cat because she talks back to the high lords and is think she's gonna get away with it makes me think like oh so you just don't like when women talk back to you huh yeah it does seem it and you know something so interesting about that is yet they were just fine with the great john one minute ago being like i'm gonna rip my sword up tywin's bunghole right like that was fine but that's what you okay anyways you know what i mean like socially leave her alone let her say whatever she wants uh and she's right she is every time she's tired yeah every time she talks shit to one of these high lords, not just in this room, like later on also. She's right.

Also, they talk shit all day long to each other. Yeah, that's true. That's what I mean. Like, I just don't think it's, yeah, it's so silly. So Theon does linger here. He lingers behind and she reminds him that he is included in you know the rest of the people that she mentioned i love it i i do love all of this because catalyn the way she frames everything is beyond courtesy right like she's done she's exhausted and she thinks she's beyond courtesy so

in catalyn's mind she's dropping f-bombs every other word right now. Although what it actually translates to, right, is like her sitting up straight and being like, my sister Liza has been foolish and difficult. Thank you very much for listening. Like, that's what Catalin says, right? Yeah. She obviously is mad. She's obviously mad. But I do love the emphasis that she's beyond pissed about it.

Because Liza's lack of support in this war is a betrayal to everything their family stands for and the reason that both of them had to marry. Right. Like the whole goal was get your hands on the swords and now your hands are on the swords and you're not using them. And Brendan is pissed, obviously, too. I mean, he literally quit a job, no notice to leave and go get a new job. That's big. But I don't know. I love that Catelyn is just out there like, no, House Tully's new words are respect, respect, respect. And Liza has none. No respect. no respect right and like brendan didn't have a retirement plan lined up he was gonna go back to what the home of the brother that he hadn't spoken to in a long ass time because that's how she hadn't even sent out his hra information right no exit interview or anything but like you know speaking of liza's behavior and as we discussed last chapter it I think Adlin was right it was she feels bad about being discourteous but I think it was a smart move even

if she didn't mean to do it to publicly distance herself from Liza's decision regarding Tyrion because that was a shit show and I mean she took it way too far yeah she did yeah like Liza was off her rocker at the end, ready to go. She was like, oh, well, no one will hear you scream when I throw you out the moon door. So does it matter if you won, Tyrion? She had like, I don't know if she took it too far or that was where she meant to take it. She has her reasons, obviously, but they're shit reasons. Anyway.

It kind of felt like, I don't know, if i was in that point of murdering people like i was already one in on my ex-husband my dead husband i don't know maybe i'd want to just keep going and say you know what maybe another body's easier than dealing with this mess that my sister brought to my door that's true i mean she has a murder door she has a murder that's true she's like i haven't really used this enough have i i need to make it worth its while as an appliance why did we spend all this money thousands and thousands of years ago on this door if i'm not gonna use it it's an antique but it should be brought out at least for special circumstances festivals family get togethers get the wd-40 to open the doors. I bet

those hinges creak. Oh yeah. Well, I don't know. She's trying to get it to a point where they don't anymore. That's how much in use they are. Well. Finally alone, with just ale and cheese between them.

That's nice. Catlin sips her beer and studies Rob. This is nice. Heatelyn sips her beer and studies Rob. This is nice. He seems taller and a tiny bit older than when she'd left. Oh, and he was already starting to grow up a little at that time too, because he's like, Mom's not taking care of us at this moment. As said earlier,

Catelyn compares Rob's whiskers to Edmure's first whiskers. Edmure's first sprouted at 16. Again, cannot tell if this is backhanded. Rob declares that he's going to be 16 soon enough, and she reminds him he is 15 now, and he is leading a host to war. To be fair, Edmure

was her eldest son, you know. Her firstborn. I mean, she raised him that way. That was, so, I think it is fond. I think she's remembering the fond memories of watching edmure grow up as a child and like seeing his whiskers come in and see him pretend to be a lord you know and play with his wooden swords and try to copy their father she's watching rob copy his father and do the same kind of things and be a lord and lead that's such a great point

especially with the way that this chapter ends and the decision that cat makes and i'm just projecting i'm just projecting my own opinions you know it's everyone it's your body do what you want with it oh my god catalan asks if rob understands why she might maybe be afraid for his well-being and his look grows stubborn there was no one else he said catalan asks who the men that filled this room moments before were that he may have given his command to any of those lords even theon though that wouldn't be her first choice me neither i know like me either good call cat uh and rob responds that they are not starks that significance it i feel that in my heart they're not starks he has a duty catelyn argues they are men seasoned in battle and he was fighting with a wooden sword less than a year ago you know catelyn is right here in some extent

right especially until the part where rob fucks up everything uh and makes bad life choices based on the secondhand trauma of watching what happened to his brother john um anyway but the starks are in many ways very fortunate because yeah sure rob's not seasoned but aren't we all very lucky that our firstborn son is a battle planning prodigy? Yeah, out of nowhere, right? Right. Total sports nerd, truly. And even here, he caves.

He looks embarrassed and he's like, are you sending me home to Winterfell? Ironically, because, you know, later he tries to send her home to Winterfell. Oh, she sighs. Yeah. She sighs and she's like, I should, but I'm not going to Winterfell. Oh, she sighs. Yeah. She sighs and she's like, I should, but I'm not going to. Not now. Someday they'll see you as their liege.

And if I sent you home now, it would be like a child being sent to bed without his supper. They will remember and laugh about it in their cups. There's so much good stuff in this. This is obvious. I'm the King Joffrey vibes uh this is obvious i'm the king draw free vibes right like i'm the king a child being sent to bed without his supper they will remember and laugh about it

in their cups she thinks that she wants them to respect and fear him a little she tells him that laughter is poison to fear and she will not do that to him. I love that line. It's come back throughout the series in so many different ways that it's broken down, and it reminds me right now of two exact moments. One is Cersei's concept of poison that she shares with Sansa, right? Permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you. Love is poison, a sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same. And in comparison also, it reminds me of something from the prologue. It is hard to take orders from a man you laughed at in your cups, Will reflected as he sat shivering atop his gerund.

Gerund must have felt the same. You know, you think of Tido's Lannister, for example, who was never taken seriously again by his bannermen, and you compare that to the legacy tywin crafted and forged in blood because of it absolutely and i i think it's great that you've tied this to the lannisters right um cersei as you said tywin and joffrey it's so core to the way that their family has developed but also that's what happens to Joffrey, right?

During the Blackwater, Cersei pulls him from the field and sends him to bed like a child without his supper. And Lancel tries to tell her like, that's a bad decision. You cannot do that to us. Right. Cause he understands what it means it kills him and it

kills their family right it kills the respect for their family and their king nonetheless so it's such a it's such a great point and we get that lesson first through catlin well rob says that cat has his thanks for that and she touches his hair gazing upon him you are my firstborn rob i have only to look at you to remember the day you came into the world red faced and squalling i think oh i think maybe we don't know not a mom not a sister you know the conversation turns to ned as it inevitably was going to and cadeline asks if rob has had word from his sisters he scratches gray wind and then reveals the letter that he'd

been sitting on that came to winterfell one had been for him one for her this is the one she wrote me i never thought to bring yours something Something in Rob's tone troubled her. She smoothed out the paper and read. Concern gave way to disbelief, then to anger, and lastly, to fear. This is Cersei's letter, not your sister's, she said when she was done. The real message is in what Sansa does not say. All this about how kindly and gently the Lannisters are treating her I know the sound of a threat even whispered they have Sansa hostage and they mean to keep her well they both note there's no mention of Arya in the letter and Catelyn doesn't feel like puzzling that out she's like that's enough depression for the night Rob mentions. Originally, he had hoped that if they had the imp, they could trade hostages.

It's interesting that he didn't think to bring her letter. I mean, we know that they all say the same thing. But, right? Rob's like, I don't know. I didn't think to bring yours. It's a total kid thing now that you say it. Like, I don't know, mom. Yeah, I guess he also thought she was going back to Winterfell, but he's also like, shit.

The discussion, though, it is set up right this discussion of the imp as a hostage and it's brought up again earlier that chapter for catlin's last class chapter with jamie and the value of hostages yeah that's well spotted even later when we get into the war tactics of rob splitting his army which i guess now that you say that again, that hammer of the waters coming down that split Rob splitting his army, having one side on the other side of the river and one side on the other. fuck with Jaime Lannister specifically uh and Tywin but you know they that's how they end up doing it is from that split like had he not sent his armies in these separate directions they wouldn't have ended up getting Jaime absolutely and I also realize now it's interesting that in this moment when they're talking about Tyrion as a hostage they're also considering still trading Tyrion for Sansa and Ned I mean Ned of course is enough as it is but he's still willing to trade Tyrion to get Sansa back whereas later on when it's Jaime

Sansa is no longer valuable enough and I think that speaks to both uh the value for better for worse uh of girls right and women hostages being less valuable but also does it speak to tyrians like the way that they perceive tyrian's value as well as the not the king slayer and the youngest brother and uh yeah the imp yeah he's worth two girls damn and ned maybe no i mean they were hoping right and what's interesting is no one's mad at her here, right? For having done that. They honestly were all rooting for it. They're all like, yeah, get the imp, man.

We would have had a token, Catelyn. Ah, shit, you don't have the imp? Which is so funny because it's such like a controversial thing in the fandom of like, was it a good thing that Cat took Tyrion? It doesn't matter because all of the lords of the north here are like shit sure wish you still had that imp we're in a precarious position um that's a good point yeah like they're fine none of them are mad in fact obviously we know why they're mad with jamie it's very inflamed there were you know maybe some violent acts

between parties it's a crazy time and things are obviously more inflamed but i do think there's something interesting in rob i know i mentioned it already but rob in the beginning you know he's all gung-ho oh mom don't send me home but by the end of the chapter he's been gassed up a little bit all right like she gassed him up pretty good being all like you're being a great commander, Rob. You're making the right choices. Even if I just had to verbally guide you to him, you're a great commander. And I do think there's kind of that,

that tension raised of like right now, these hostages to them are equal value, but later the price of a hostage changes drastically for Rob. Yeah. And what he considers the exchange rate yeah because even even in a bit they're like well we need the kingslayer if we're gonna get sunset and maybe it's because ned's not on the table anymore he's on a spike um he's off the table anyway so that there's a lot going on but i think that's an interesting point that the lords were never

like catelyn why the fuck did you do that they're like shit we could have done something with that right i thought that was something interesting this time around for sure they i mean they're all gung-ho they just want to kill lannisters yeah a lot of them do be honest and gonna be honest. That happens later on. Yeah. That becomes a huge plot point. Yeah. They want to just shove swords up

Lannister bungholes. It's not a bung. It's not a bung. It's a different bung. A different bung. It's so sad. There's this line. He took Sansa's letter and crumpled it in his fist and she could tell from the way he did it that it was not the first time i appreciate that cadeline has the right of it from the jump that this message is in what sansa does not say that it's cersei's words

in her hand especially because later she hears rob speak with the Lord's words in his voice. So I love that she calls it out as that and then she thinks it again later. To bring us back to Bran's last chapter where Rob first reads the message. When the raven came bearing a letter marked with father's own seal and written in Sansa's hand, the cruel truth seemed no less incredible. Bran would never forget the look on Rob's face as he stared at their sister's words. She says father conspired at treason with the king's brothers. King Robert is dead and mother and I are summoned to the Red Keep to swear fealty to Joffrey. She says we must be loyal and when she marries Joffrey she'll plead with him to spare our lord father's life. His

fingers closed into a fist crushing Sansa's letter between them. And she says nothing of Arya, nothing, not so much as a word. Damn her. What's wrong with the girl? So I love that the first take of the letter, Rob is automatically like, what is she saying? Like, how could she write me this? How could Sansa say this? And the second take of the letter, of course, Catelyn says, wow, I can't believe cersei made her write this and realizes immediately that it might be her hand but it is not her word and that's again catelyn reading things well right

she read the omens and she's reading this letter and just as she read the subtext even though i mean it was kind of wrong uh liza's letter li Liza's letter was all lies. But, I mean, how could she know that? Yeah. But there's all these different things, and Catelyn's very good at getting to the underlying just like she read the magnifying glass, right? She's like, oh, that means we gotta look closer.

Exactly. No, exactly. Rob asks if Aunt Liza has plans to help help and if the banners have been called and the Knights of the Veil but alas only one of them the Blackfish but he was a Tully first and yeah yeah Liza as we've said

so Rob's pretty perturbed about this says mother what are we going to do I brought this whole army together 18,000 men but I don't I'm not certain he looked to her his eyes shining the proud young lord

melted away in an instant and quick as that he was a child again a 15 year old boy looking to his mother for answers it would not do it would not do his attitude it wouldn't but I mean that's being 15 right who i could not do all this at 15

i very much could not i can't even do this at 29 i know right there's you know we've talked a little bit about various discussions and have stressed that yeah these characters are young right they're doing dumb shit because they're young and i saw this comment on thredit that i thought was pretty funny um and interestingly it's in the context of a thread that says it's adorable that sansa thinks 22 year old barrick is awfully old which is awfully rude to me but anyway and people pointed out right that a historicalness of george r martin's way of writing a lot of the ages and this user the thistle in the burr uh brings up an interesting point that george uh is inspired by tuchman's a distant mirror which is one of um and one of the central theses of this book is that the character of the 14th century europe was in quotes essentially adolescent and the reason why is because there

were a lot of teenagers in positions of power or influence which again probably not a good idea but that's just how things happen i guess when people when people keep dying. And not that there, to continue from what the user says, not that there were never any more mature people around making decisions, but, and again, quoting Tuckman, the flower of French chivalry was often around 18 years old and therefore tends to be incredibly reckless and hot-headed. So people, people you know they fault a lot of these characters for making dumb decisions but like that's what people do at that age and that's what happened in real life you get you get a hot-headed century and really fucked up politics when you have teenagers running it yeah that is tough to navigate with especially in this

and i don't find it like i guess especially for sansa because she's like a 12 year old that's like wow 22 that's so old yeah i actually think there's a good amount of that that we find in these books right and i think it is interesting because you have characters and you have historical figures uh like ann boleyn she seems to always be depicted as being so young but when she gets the old chap chap she's like 30 ish somewhere in her 30s you know uh and kitty howard for example she's super young when she dies she's 15 16 when she gets the old chap chap um it's the historical the historical way to to talk about their deaths, the chop chop. Yes.

So it's interesting because I'm like, I see the arguments for people that get annoyed about the ages. And sometimes I do. Sometimes it is like, all right, this isn't very, there's no way, George. You did this to yourself. Oh, absolutely. But at the same time, I guess it just doesn't matter. I think that for me, the most egregious is the flaws that happen when the five year gap is scrapped. I'm just saying that like when characters do dumb shit, like the Sark children, it's because they're children.

As Marcella says, we're children. We're supposed to be childish. Yeah. And I mean, obviously, I obviously I love Bran, but even like in not not loving Bran, I do find Bran's chapters fine. I know George sometimes says they're difficult or they're just his harder chapters to write, but I do love them. I think he captures the whimsy and some of the conflict for Bran as a young man or a young boy pretty well. Yeah, I think they might be harder for him, but he should feel proud

of what he has written in Bran. And I like the Bran chapters. We've discussed this before. I was surprised people don't like the Bran chapters. I love the Bran chapters. Yeah. Obviously. Well, people who love Bran,

Catelyn Stark, Cat gently asks Rob what he is afraid of. And Rob says, even if they win, the Lannisters will kill Sansa and father, won't they? And Catelyn says, I don't know, but I do know one thing, and it's that you have no choice. If you swear fealty at King's Landing, then like Rob's never going to be allowed to leave. if you swear fealty at king's landing then like rob's never going to be allowed to leave if he retreats to the north his vassals will lose all respect for him and some might even just end up going to the lannisters because of that so with that much less to fear if uh those lords defect then the queen can do whatever she likes with her prisoners so caitlyn says that their only hope is to defeat the foe in the field and capture lord tywin or the king slayer in hopes to trade for their family back

and i'm just like wow you know he's he's young you know we've been talking about how he's young but damn rob is the definition of just like understood the assignment yeah i mean uh i i Yeah, I mean, I love that when we get this breakdown soon of the actual war plan, he comes to that conclusion, right? He explains to her, this is my weak spot, this is where I'm screwed, and it pretty much matches up exactly with what she says here. Mm-hmm. Rob finally asks, what if the fighting goes against us, and Kat takes his hand? She says, if you lose, there's no hope for any of us. She reminds him of the fate of Rhaegar's children and sees the fear and the strength in his eyes from this. This on reread stood out so much. The fate of Rhaegar's children.

I mean, how about the fate of Rob and his mom? Throw in the river naked stuffing gray wind on his head uh the horror it's horrific it is horrific how they're treated and it does show up as a horrific crime the lannisters have committed well not the lannisters but you know what i mean they were basically involved in in ruse's passing but showing those people behind these egregious wars and burning down the riverside. And it's, this is a whole nother rebellion, right? Like this is rebellion too.

Let's go again. It's everything they fought for before. And the way this is worded, of course, hits the nail right on the head. Is it a metaphor? Is it an analogy? We don't know. They say there is not,

but stone at the heart of casterly rock remember the fate of rhaegar's children this was also kind of brought up thematically in danny's chapter prior daenerys almost poisoned by the wine merchant thinks of rhaegar and thinks how now she is the last of the dragons that she can never let the dash khalin and face dothrak be her home in fact she thinks about how muchinvased Dothrak be her home. In fact, she thinks about how much she would love to let it be her home, but then thinks, with Viserys gone, Daenerys was the last, the very last. She was the seed of kings and conquerors, and so too the child inside her. She must not forget. The chapter ends, of course, with Khal

Drogo swearing to avenge her family, wronged by the current usurpers on the throne, claiming what is hers, coming off of, of course, her having to defend herself from her brother, thinking of his death. Liza, in a way, is now dead to Catelyn, and if not now dead, will be very soon dead. And I don't know, it's just interesting. There are times Catelyn and Rob's story do feel like a similar dynamic alternate timeline Dany and Rhaego, maybe with no dragons. Interesting.

You know? Not such an interesting point. I haven't thought about that. Because that is what she envisioned for her son. Mm-hmm. Now she's gonna do it herself raise the countryside all over again life's hard the phrasing of um this exchange is interesting we've been talking about tywin a little bit right and obviously he's rob's big foe on the battlefield

and actually later on in the books we see he's one of the big bads. But with the way that we opened on the Lannister twins in this book itself, and what allegedly happened to Jon Arryn, according to Liza's letter, it's interesting that throughout this, Rob and Kat are framing, and they see Cersei as the very big villain, the one who will gut them if they show any weakness. And I guess that does happen to be the case right for ned's storyline at least there's also a line that you called out that i love especially in the context of the of alissa erin's tears that we've been talking about

the past two chapters of rob i will not soften the truth for you. If you lose, there is no hope for any of us. They say there is not but stone at the heart of Casterly Rock and I'm just going to repeat that. Not but stone at the heart of Casterly Rock. Stone, Ned.

Stone. Heart. And I'm just like interesting Catlin are you sure that's not you not Casterly Rock it will be not necessarily Casterly but

cast into the river Casterly Rock I drew that once on a sticky note aww that's beautiful we connect through this yeah that's all a cat you know cast really rocked with a cat head cat ned cat he vows not to lose this war and she quizzes him on the fighting in the riverlands he tells her a battle was fought below the golden tooth but Uncle Edmure sent Lord Vance and Piper to hold the pass. But the Kingslayer descended and put them to fight,

Lord Vance was slain, and Piper fell back to join Edmure and the Bannermen at Riverrun. All that time the Kingslayer had kept them busy, Tywin brought a second army from the south, even larger than Jaime's host. You know, this sticks out. In killing Lord Vance, they've solidified the Riverlands participating in this rebellion. Hmm. Now it's personal. That's so interesting. Father must have known that because he sent out some men to oppose them under the King's Own Banner.

He gave the command to some southern lordling, Lord Eric? Or Derek? Or something like that but sir raymond derry rode with him and the letter said there were other knights as well and a force of father's own guardsmen only it was a trap so when lord derrick crossed the red fork the landisters fell on him and gregor took him in the rear and then lord derrick and his men may have escaped but sir raymond and the men from winterfell were killed tywin closed off the king's road and now he marches north to harrenhal burning as he goes as tywin do oh yeah major tywin energy and i love this right love the difference between the unofficial news and official news.

And that Rob's understanding here is that Ned sent Lord Derek out for Winterfell's war against Tywin, right? Like, obviously he knows it was King's justice, but the way he's speaking about it seems that he thinks that Ned is playing into their plan somehow, or he's out there trying to help them. When in reality, net is just sending the king's justice right to bring gregor to person not necessarily stop tywin because as we just experienced in edit 11 that's the exact opposite he does not want to instigate he is trying very hard to navigate between this very very weird rock and small place here of Tywin Lannister being, you know, the dad-in-law of his BFF. Very hard, very difficult.

Politically a little awkward with the Lannisters and Starks here. Of course, Rob gets Lord Derrick Dondarrion's name wrong, right? Beric Dondarrion. He was close. Beric actually comes back in the next chapter in passing because he continues to steal and raid from Tywin's supply lines. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Go, Deric. There's a great emphasis here on how Tywin isn't actually behind these things,

but Robb sees right through that he is. That Tywin is amassing the armies, and he's bringing that second load of people up to mess their shit up. This isn't just the assets Tywin sacrifices, right? Like later Tywin will sacrifice the mummers and Gregor to clean his hands easily. This is Tywin himself. This is his way of war. And I do think that it's an interesting thought here. It kind of lends credence to the idea of independence.

It's an interesting thought here. It kind of lends credence to the idea of independence. Rob is already thinking of the North as an independent place, not a North living under the crown. That's an interesting point. And that shows, you know, the direction that they're going in. I wonder what those Lords have been saying to him on the way down. And yeah, they just do not want to live under Lannister rule.

Duh. Yeah. And, you know, speaking of Derek, that's my other favorite part in this chapter. It's a great lead-in towards the end of the chapter. As it nears close, it shows that Robb doesn't really know yet the nobles across the Seven Kingdoms not super well as Catelyn coaches him through his vassals for different duties. But also also it just kills me it just kills me when he calls him Derek and he just like fucking stuck with that it makes me think of Derek from The Good Place every time maximum Derek Derek and oh my god oh my god

the best part of the chapter anyway i think that's why jane was so in love with him right because he has wind chimes in his oh you're right that is that is his allure and he does come back over and over again derek oh i think this is real. Anyway. If Tywin does venture that far north, Robb means to meet him here. If the Lannisters come up the neck, Howland Reed at Greywater Watch will bleed them dry. But Lord Glover... But Lord Glover and Bolton think that Tywin is too smart for that

and that he will stay close to the Trident, taking the Riverrun castles one by one until Riverrun stands alone so he is forcing them to come south to meet them it's like chess, George R. R. Martin is really into chess not that I actually know chess but it feels like it

alright Queen's Gambit, settle down thank you I love that we get our Crayonog mention the Crayonog men continue to hold this garrison up until a feast for crows we last hear of howland and his people actually in jamie for a feast for crows possibly hiding and possibly housing lady stoneheart and her band of merry men which i think is very interesting that she went toward Mote Cailin and she disappeared, right? So Theon resolves the siege of Mote Cailin,

and Roose sends a decoy in to avoid an assassination attempt later in week two in Adabada. So we'll see. I think we might come back to these bogs in Tiwaur in A Dream of Spring. Yep. Chihuahua in A Dream of Spring. Yep. Well, Catelyn is scared, understandably, wondering what 15-year-old could battle commanders like Jaime and Tywin. She second-guesses him and says that he's strongly placed at Moot Cailin. The old kings in the north would stand at Cailin and throw back hosts ten times their own.

But the food stores are running low, he reveals, and the land is not easy to live off of. Now that the Manderlys joined their strength, they must march. Yes, and this is where Catelyn is hearing the Lord's voice, right? But not just the Lord's voice like Ned, she's hearing all of the Lords that were just in this room speaking through her son's confused mouth. And I think there's such a distinction of like rob being a 15 year old here absolutely and like catelyn knows that and can hear those other lords voices because she's hosted many of these lords this plays into again this later part of this chapter and she's learned what sort of men that they each are She wonders if Rob knows as well. And I'm like, the answer is no, because he's 15, right?

Like, I don't pay attention to that shit as a child. And like, fuck, I wish I knew what sort of people people were like when I was 15. And I sometimes wish that I knew that now. And maybe when I'm Catelyn's age, like two years i will be that wise i mean she's been watching her husband drink with them for 15 years you know they drank ale and joked together for 15 years worth of dinners on and off and uh there's definitely sense in what the lord's told her son right like she respects those angles most of the host that rob has is accustomed to maintenance they're not like the armies you would go buy over in the free cities most of these people are small

folk crofters field hands fishermen sheep herders the sons of in keeps and traders and tanners leavened with a smattering of sell swords and free riders hungry for plunder when their lords called they came but not forever learning about these armies and who the people of his nation really are feels significant here right especially as he joins to the riverlands in strength and it stays really conscient like really cognizant in the next chapter where we see tyrian also interfacing with the veil clans and with the people that he's brought from the Vale. I think this is such a clever training and exposition sequence overall for Rob in kind of cutting Warcraft and in diplomacy, not just stick

them with the pointy end Warcraft. And I think that's important for Rob as he goes forward and he starts to kind of get a little smarter about these things. Yes, it really is. And Catelyn tells Rob that marching is all well, but what do you mean to do? The Greyjohn would have them surprise Tywin in the field. The Glovers and Karstarks think that they should join up with Edmure against the Kingslayer. But Rob's not certain what's the better route. And Catlin's like, you must be certain or else just go home and take the wooden sword up again. That Rob cannot afford to be indecisive with these men. They are his bannermen and not his friends.

She reminds him that he named himself Battle Commander. Tells him, command. So she asks him again, what do you mean to do do and there's definitely a deeper discussion to be had about cat's parenting that will probably happen more in later chapters and we discussed this a bit in the first few ones in regards to her relationship with rob but i do think she is doing a great job of mentoring the heir to the north in this and how to lead and you know and later he's gonna have to rule a kingdom in terms of letting him think things through on his own and come to his own conclusions it's not just that like she she did this little in that earlier chapter with rob but she's prompting him on his rationale which gives rob practice at justifying his decisions especially doing it

aloud and thinking also through his actions rather than just going with his gut or what other people tell him to do. And we'll see towards the end of Rob's plan, Kat asks a question, and it could seem like a criticism, right? She pushes back a little, but rather than, but it's not. It allows Rob to actually explain the advantage of putting a river between, yes, his own armies, but also between the Lannister's armies. putting a river between, yes, his own armies, but also between the Lannister's armies. And I would add that Cat is a master at a certain craft in this chapter that most of you may know, but some of you might not, and I might be blowing a lot of covers right now, but it's what we like to call planting the seed.

Hot inception. Yes, if you plant the seed and make them think it was their idea they might go for it right it might be selling later subconsciously this leader decides to choose that plan because of your planting of the seed so i'm just saying cat master at that master craft seed planter absolutely yeah i i don't know that that's necessarily here but because i don't she's not like a battle commander right that's not her thing all the time but yeah no but she uses the same psychology of okay i can't tell him directly that he shouldn't do that stupid ass decision so she plants a seed for him to change it on his own yeah rob draws out an old ragged leather map and he weighs it down with his dagger he breaks down that if they swing around tywin's host they

risk being caught between both armies if they attack him they might lose because he has stronger numbers and armored horse the great john thinks they can catch him with his breeches down, but Robb thinks Tywin is too seasoned to be surprised in that way. Catelyn hears the echoes of Ned in Robb's voice and gives him her approval, asking him to keep going. He thinks he'll leave a force to hold Moat Cailin, archers, and march down the causeway, but he plans to split a host in two south of the neck. The foot can go down the King's Road while their horsemen cross the Green Fork at the Twins. The plan here is when Tywin hears that they've come south, he'll march north to engage the first host,

while the rest of the riders hurry to Riverrun. And speaking of some of those similarities between the way that Catelyn, you know, and Rob think, this is Rob's plan, right? He came up with this, but it reminds me a little, this misdirection is exactly what Catlin did when she told everyone, yes, we are going north!

We are going north, everyone! That is exactly what I thought, too. I thought it was so Catlin reminiscent of her split plan. Absolutely. So, learn a couple of things. He doesn't only think

like Ned, but Rob doesn't dare smile. He doesn't want to seem too boyish, but he does seem very pleased with his plan and is hungry for Catelyn's praise. She questions the plan, saying, well, you'd be separating your armies with a river between them.

And Rob's like, yeah, but we're also separating Jaime and Tywin. And now Rob allows himself a little victory smile while bringing out the next part of his plan. And he knows that they won't be able to cross unless they cross at the twins. So we're going to need Lord Freyay her father's bannerman to cross oh now you need your mom yeah yeah and i mean he's not this isn't like yeah lord fray we all we all got thoughts about him oh yeah oh yeah and you know what this is of course the big big entrance of the lord fray and cat's plot again to bring us back to him the late lord fray cadeline thought he is she admitted but my

father has never trusted him nor should you rob promises not to trust him in return and asks what she thinks of this plan despite herself she's impressed's impressed. He looks like a Tully, but he is his father's son. Ned taught him well. I love that Rob is like, yeah, I promise I won't trust that guy. And then, like, Rob forgets his promise. Yeah. Decides to trust Walder Frey. Yeah.

Yeah. Or decides, like, it'll be fine. He forgets his own promise, not just... He forgets a lot of promises. He forgets the promise to not trust Lord Frey. Also, that promise that he made to Lord Frey. Rob, what's a promise? I don't know. Good thing Lyanna didn't ask rob to keep her promises but

i guess maybe ned might not have kept it i don't know it's up in the air had a lot of promises yep catalan asks rob which force he plans to command and he answers immediately horse just like his father would have she thinks taking the dangerous task himself she asks who will lead the other force and he begins to think the great john should lead and take the honor of smashing tywin but this this is definitely a misstep in catalan's eyes she tries to choose her words very carefully hoping not to wound his newfound confidence and she goes about it in that smart way that we mentioned she leads that great john is so fearless and you know your father is not necessarily fearless but you know he is brave and rob thinks on that he's like huh only the eastern hosts will stand between tywin and winterfell i don't want fearless i want

cold cunning they both come to the same result they They say Bruce Bolton. They agree he's scary and hope that he will scare Tywin as well. I'll give the commands and assemble an escort to take you home to Winterfell. Catelyn fought to keep herself strong for Ned's sake and for this stubborn, brave son of theirs. She had put despair and fear aside as if they were garments she did not choose to wear but now she saw she had donned them after all i am not going to winterfell she heard herself say surprised at the sudden rush of tears that blurred her vision my father may be dying behind the walls of riverrun my brother is surrounded by foes i must go to them once moreatelyn avoids going home to Winterfell. Interesting.

A recurring theme we are about to see. A recurring theme. Yeah. Well, you know, I think the big question of this chapter is, who was the better choice to lead, right? Like, Bruce obviously was maybe not the best choice to put in that powerful position. I kind of think Gelbertbert glover or rebecca glover might have been the best or better choice for leading that command

a man to get the job done to follow the directions from their liege lord and men who know the area and know a little bit about the land yeah i don't know necessarily who was a better choice to lead i just know why ruse wasn't you know we all kind of know um but again it's another one of those examples of the audience like having more information than cat and like that's true especially upon review read right like it's not even given to us that early on in these books um and it comes back to that idea of Kat had grown up believing that the rules of the world that she was taught worked even though there are untrustworthy

vassals, she calls it out and knows that Walder Frey is one of them and she thinks that they're exceptions and that they'll probably maybe come through in the end like he did that one time but it's not sure, it is a gamble and she knows that and obviously know obviously in hindsight as you said you know galbert glover's a better choice and probably even the gray john's like a better choice like they're not just willing to get the job done

they like actually want this job and roost is like i don't know doing weird weird things. And I mean, George himself has said that Roose didn't make his decision to defect until later in Storm. So it's not like as early as here, but we do see that this plan that Rob has kind of gives the potential for that meeting or opportunity for that meeting for Roose and Tywin. And when we're discussing political context, the Bones and the Starks haven't always been copacetic and especially starting next book like that that becomes really

clear towards the end of clash but i think that again when it comes to like both walder and bruce cat and i think to be fair everyone else was surprised too because that's why they were like, wow, I can't believe that shit happened when it came to the Red Wedding in Westeros. But Kat believed a little too hard in that feudal contract, so she was like, it'll be fine sending the Boltons, even though he's kind of spooky.

And I think the problem with that though is Rob's plan is already taking a risk on one potentially untrustworthy vassal. That's Lord Frey. And that one Kat knows for sure is suspect. So you want to like lessen the amount of suspect people that you trust as much as possible. You know, Bruce, I guess they just didn't see him as that, right?

They didn't read him as that. He's just like creepy. But there's like a bunch of fucking creepy people. And the problem is you gambled on two elements within the same game you know and one of the elements they knew much less right catelyn does not have a ton of personal experience with ruse of those two people she knows lord fray much more than she knows ruse and rob unfortunately doesn't either i mean ruse doesn't just like come hang out all the time

on weekends in winterfell you know he obviously is a fair weather lord that does not come often does not have a ton of interaction with ned just enough so i can't really hold that against them they didn't know him uh they just knew of his reputation and they trusted the wrong thing yeah and they're going off of what they have right like it seems clear that ruse probably held with them during robert's rebellion so they're like well he'll probably do so again here that has happened before but i mean yeah as you said that she's not she doesn't have a good read on ruse and ned probably doesn't either and like who does i mean like i don't want to hang out with ruse bolton all right he doesn't want to hang out with them and they don't want to hang out with him and

like that's fear i ruse bolton does not you know in the reality like tv star show way he did not come here to make friends no most definitely did not come here to make friends and that unfortunately is something that our friend rob stark is going to learn throughout our time in these chapters and our other friend our best friend roderick oh that's horrible because it's horribly true and roderick does learn it he learns it so hard that he too dies from the knowledge of it from the boltons yep well eliana thanks for giving me a happy note to end our episode on you're welcome i think we're gonna end on a really happy note these catlin chapters yeah it's only going to get happier from here folks so if you're not already make sure that you're subscribed to us and follow us over on

social media right you could tweet us your thoughts about the episode about the chapter about how sad if you're not already make sure that you're subscribed to us and follow us over on social media right you could tweet us your thoughts about the episode about the chapter about how sad you are about the cattle and tully stark episodes because they're sad for us too there are there are a lot of sadness every week but we're doing it god damn it uh girls gone canon c-a-n-o-n on twitter or send us an email girlsgonecanon at gmail.com you can keep up with us and our journey towards Kat's very happy ending by subscribing to our

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Pentos, so pack up, get on the ship, all aboard. Get on the ship. Get on the dragon maybe. And of course, you know, while you're maybe in Pentos, perhaps you would like to enjoy the local festivities for example our discord brunch happy hour on may 23rd

yeah can't wait two to four et two to four eastern daily savings time and it's gonna be fun i'm excited for this month we're gonna do a slideshow potluck presentation style slideshow again with everyone so uh look for details on our patreon soon on that yeah we haven't done one of those in a while so i think it'll be fun change pace creative indeed dreams of spring as always i have been one of your hosts Chloe and I have been another one of your hosts Eliana see you next week they're so gonna die