Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 128 - ACOK Catelyn I

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

A new book begins and the players have been reshuffled. The King in the North makes demands that may never be met.   ---   Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl] Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage  

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon Reads A Song Of Ice And fire episode 129 catalan one in a clash of kings i am one of your hosts chloe and i am another one of your hosts eliana and yes we are starting a new book new chapter i love a clash of kings i not to wax on my love for it but I feel like it is an underrated book in a mess of pacing issues from the rest of the series I just feel like everyone loves Storm because it's like so come at you like pa pa pa the Catalina wine mixer and then they're like no boo feast bad and I'm like feast just has pacing issues and dance has pacing issues with catalina wine mixer issues at the end and i think clash is just very pleasantly sad depressing and a little exciting at some points but mostly sad yeah i mean i'm one of those people who underrates clash so i

feel that i get i get what you're saying it's real the phenomenon is real but these are these are like this is fucking it you know when it comes to cat's chapters we're getting into it and this is an exposition heavy chapter right like this is like this is some setup there's lots of fun stuff that's gonna lead off in this book to bigger stuff that we'll talk about as we go along but there's lots of, lots of meat to chew on up in here. It's set up and there's like every now and then like mild reminding of like, this is this person because, you know, it's a new book. But yeah, yeah, it's a it's like a review.

It's getting it's being like, here are all the pieces ready now for the plot. Well, let's grab into some housekeeping real quick. Patreon episode this month is going to be a his dark materials episode the collectors it is a mini novella it's only ebook and audiobook right now we're gonna read it before it comes out in an official physical form so that's this month right if you're not a big his dark materials person if you haven't tried it highly suggest it if not next month our special episode for patrons in the five dollar and above tier the stranger tier after our one of our favorite horses uh we'll get another episode on a song of ice and fire

you'll hear about it soon yeah and this is a standalone story more or less the collectors so even if you are not a big historic materials fan you could tune into it but we are going to be analyzing it heavily through that lens so yes next we do have for not our stranger tier but another tier the thunder tier and above as you all know has access to our discord And that also includes our brunches and happy hours, brunch slash happy hour that we do once a month. And there we have games and giveaways and get to know yous. And this month we are going to be doing brunch slash happy hour on June 26th. And it will be a pride themed brunch.

Yes, I'm very excited. If you are, you'll probably have heard about it by now if you're hearing this episode on Fridays when we release these episodes. But the Thunder tier can access our Discord. It is a fun place, and I'm very excited for brunch and happy hour this month. Because, I don't know, after these cat chapters mama needs a drink not just cat chapters you know a lot of our friends such as yogi and rowan have been putting out some great lgbtq analysis um as of late and uh a lot of other ones of our friends too right um through that lens, such as Lo on Nauticast, Gasting,

and also Yogi and everyone. Yeah, absolutely. I'm really loving all of the wonderful theme content coming out for Pride Month and I'm loving, I know Nauticast has a few great episodes that have come out and are coming out. I can't say much there. I will not spoil it. Let it be known, I will not

spoil it. They've tried to get it out of me but you'll have to wait and listen or you can pop over to their patreon and probably hear about it early too so check that out but i'm excited to see what comes up at brunch i know we're gonna have some wonderful thoughtful and colorful presentations and i'm sure there's going to be some hysterical uh very funny presentations i'm sure i'm sure some A-Swap shenanigans might happen because that happens and Jackbox games especially with cunnilingus discourse

happening as of late yeah I dipped my tongue into that myself I did so at the time of recording this we are one day out

what it's the day after the internet decided does Batman or does Batman not go down on women I guess it feels really topical I know a lot of people feel like this is like some historian stuff going on

in our episodes first the pandemic now pussy cheating discourse feel like this is like some historian stuff going on in our episodes first the pandemic now pussy shooting discourse yeah yeah this is this is historical historical moment really an homage to be laid at our feet anyways

we'll talk about homages later but in actually a very different way a completely different way yes well we're here you know we're here at a clash of kings and you know we used to do there were i think a lot of great responses and emails and tweets of note but i was too lazy to grab any of them this week but we saw them and we appreciated them you know i think this week uh we've had a lot of pressure lately you know some big chapters at the end of a game of thrones yeah no pressure no pressure this week just vibes vibes all around we're just gonna get into the nitty-gritty kingship going on here yeah we will come back to

them you know i mean it was a lot of work playing raven last last chapter you know shuffling emails over publicly to different people so which blueberry excited though about our new our new fan friend service dm like tina's fan friend fiction oh my god but yeah so as you all know we are now starting a clash of kings for Catelyn and um we used to do book overviews I guess of the

character arc but we've been talking about these I think overall and I mean it all Catelyn's arc it all goes together you all know the themes from a game of thrones you've seen the show the books were based upon what is the theme of Catelyn in a game of thrones

suffering? I tried to love a motherless child oh my god, okay, well I think the theme for Catelyn is uh I don't know family, I think the theme for Catalin is I don't know family

I think family was a Game of Thrones and this book is duty and the third book is breaking honor yeah the horse oh I mean maybe so there was an animal sound that I was like

we gotta oh it was the dragon sounds. Dragons. Well, I've added my own horse noise. Yeah, I think last book was about family for Kat, right? Justice for Bran, then later justice for Ned. But now it's about duty, duty to the kingdom over duty to your family, as we're going to explore in this chapter, I think specifically. I think that's a great point considering that i mean that's the big thing right at the end of the book

with all the vows they make you swear and swear that's essentially the argument of like within what the fuck is duty yeah i mean even rob himself has his own redux of that right when he comes distressed his mother saying i thought i was gonna do better than this and i guess i can't i guess it's impossible because this chapter itself feels like check baits it feels like uh it's unfair right like it just feels like every you're up against a wall everywhere you look and there's no answer and it turns out mood that's war baby that's war, baby. That's war. It is. No, we've got a lot to slide through. This is what, the seventh?

Cha-cha slide through. This is the seventh chapter in A Clash of Kings, I think. So we've got to hit that last and nearest chapter. Let's hit our lightning round and get into A Clash of Kings. Yeah. So, as you all know, A Game of Thrones, again, again backtracking a game of thrones there's one more chapter at the end of it right after cats which is denarius 10 and so from denarius 10 we're just going to quote the band stars and the song your ex lover's dead when there's nothing nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire yeah i thought that was appropriate and that's

that's it that's the ultimate right the ultimate chapter on to a clash of kings the prologue what the fuck that is the title i mean like that is what happens your ex-lover's dead your ex-lover is dead i told you yeah oh i'm sorry i'm slow on the uptake today so it took me that work is masterful elliot there's layers there's layers is this a davos chapter because you got no no thank you you. That takes us into A Clash of Kings, the prologue. Maester Cressen hopes to save the realm by sacrificing himself and poisoning a red priestess. But in the end, Melisandre remains. My heart. Arya won.

Arya heads north with Yoren, disguised as a boy. Arya heads north with Yoren disguised as a boy she gets into it with hot pie and is punished before learning her father should have been allowed to take the black already dealing in secrets oh Sansa won

Sansa attends Joffrey's birthday party Dantos arrives shit-faced and naked and Sansa saves his life in making him a professional fool. Hashtag infrastructure. Hashtag jobs are coming back under Sansa. Thank you. I will be taking

no further criticisms on that. Nope. Tyrion won. Tyrion Lannister returns to take his job. Courtesy of Sansa. As the end of the king, meeting with the council and discussing the state of the city with Cersei. Later, he heads to the Broken Anvil, and Varys reveals he's discovered Shae. Some jobs come with thorns, okay?

Foreshadowing. Bran I. come with thorns okay foreshadowing bran one bran contemplates the comet and laments having to lock his wolves up for the phrase it's a metaphor he tells maester lewin of his wolf dreams and lewin gives him a sleeping drought but bran still dreams through summer's eyes aria too aa and the group heading north stop at an inn encountering Jok and Hagar they're confronted by gold cloaks but Euron sends them off for now oh

Jon won Jon finds Sam reading maps in the library cellar they watch new recruits train and Jon talks to Donald Noy Jaor reveals Aemon's past. And that brings us here to A Clash of Kings, Catlin I. The North presents a united front, as King Rob holds court, giving a messenger terms to present to the Queen. Once court is dismissed, though, Catlin and Rob don't quite see eye to eye. Catelyn's uncle returns, and they discuss what must be done. So we open the chapter with,

Her son's crown was fresh from the forge, and it seemed to Catelyn that the weight of it pressed heavy on Robb's head. The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it, no man could say. Lord Hoster Smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark Kings of old. An open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the first men,

surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none. Bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold. Thank you for reading such a beautiful passage it felt very important and cinematic for you to do so for me why i just i'm passionate for this crown i have to tell you i am very

passionate about this crown and uh the image that's being presented here is of course bold they wait in river run for their prisoner to be presented to them, and Rob's crown is falling slightly off his head. He adjusts it, and Catelyn thinks it is no easy thing to wear a crown. And I love that this is our very first entrance into seeing this crown that they hadn't

made, right? It's a crown made in the south for a northern king in a way, so I think that's kind of really beautiful that it presents that unity with the Riverlands in the north for a northern king in a way so i think that's kind of kind of really beautiful that it presents that unity with the riverlands in the north in a way and putting it straight against joffrey's crown a crown of gold crusted with rubies and black diamonds immediately we see the contrast of gold silver gemstones it had none joffrey's crown is a targaryen copycat piece right overcompensating and i do love that about the northern crown it's not beautiful necessarily but it's simple and it's

strong and symbolic it's metaphorical it's got meanings it's got meaning it means stuff i mean i don't think it's the last we've seen of it. We last talked about this when it kind of disappeared, right, in the Jamie chapters. And I know that when we come across that epilogue eventually, I think, right? Is it an epilogue that we come across it again soon?

I can't remember. I haven't thought about that in so long. This is my first time reading the story. This is, in fact, not a reread podcast we're just spoiling chloe the every every chapter wow gee golly no i think there's just something uh very simple and stated well about it and there's something interesting about the nine swords i was trying to look through different things with nine in them. And I think there's something kind of interesting with House Templeton, who's married into House Royce and also wanted to support Lord Royce in joining the Starks in war.

Literally, nine stars is where they live, right? Of nine stars, their sigil has the stars. It made me wonder. I was like, is that something? There's a lot of like random,'s like nine people left and none have come back. And, you know,

just like nine, this, the free cities, the nine free cities. But there's also the nine weird words that John sees. So game of Thrones, the weird ones that John takes his vows in front of nine weird woods grew in a rough circle.

John drew in a breath and he saw sam tarly staring so nine weirwoods for where he took his vows and then we see it again the same place in a storm of swords john three before he's about to bang out egret he remembers the weirwood grove where he set his vows with the nine great white trees in a circle faces watching listening it just feels so symbolic and northern to have the nine swords in this aspect but it doesn't feel like george has come back to it yet so i wonder if it will have meaning maybe we'll break into nine kingdoms instead of seven that's interesting i mean it kind of it already isn't even seven, right? Because back then it was the kingdom of the River and Isles, which is now two anyway.

So it's like what? It would be, hold on, let me make sure I have this right and count it out. So it would be Dorne, the Riverlands, the Reach, the Vale, the Crownlands, The Reach, The Veil, The Crownlands, The Stormlands, The North, The Iron Islands,

The Westerlands. Oh, the Westerlands. No one likes them. So, okay. It is actually nine, right? So maybe the nine Weirwoods are symbolic of the literal nine kingdoms maybe i just can't see them all going independent they need each other to be like hey in some ways i think there's gonna be we just had this big conversation that i do think there's you know manuclear bomb has a great theory manu who's been on before has talked about uh the the neck and possibly severing from the south and like I think that

really holds true for a lot of things I don't know exactly how it all works out as we've said but I just am curious what will it look like what will it look like a post this bullshit Westeros beheaded dead I mean if you if you slice it at the neck we've seen what happens at the end of one book right dad no but the last thing that i feel is significant about the crown is the runes on it right yeah especially with lord royce being kind of a first men veil house and their support of the starks and wanting to have joined rob and you know their words are we remember that's ominous enough but there's a user on reddit knowing nate his name is who pointed out this is the royce rune pattern on bronzio's cloak in the show and armor in the books and he posted the photo of it uh it's one of the

graphics that's been made as semi-canon. And he said, a few years ago, as something to do, I taught myself the runic alphabet for Old English. Starting at the top right corner, going clockwise. I know, I'm like, I want to do this. It seems to say in modern English, written phonetically in runes,

run before your blood runs. That sounds cool and ominous. I don't know that it's what I would put on a crown. Yeah. I don't know that this would have it, obviously, but that's interesting, and I wonder if, you know, maybe

that those runes, I don't know, I feel like they're connected, feels important. I don't know how. That's not my job. That's George's job. Don't come to me. Or, like, rune before your blood runs. Oh, my God. Okay. Okay. job that's george's job don't come to me we're like ruined before your blood roots oh my god okay okay so let's get back to that crown right and rob wearing it yeah so there's a lot of

language in here and i'm sure other people have talked about it and so we're not going to spend too much time on it of course but talking about the weight of it pressing heavy on rob's head um and how it's no easy thing to wear a crown. But it's very reminiscent of that line from Shakespeare's play, Henry IV, part two of the cha-cha slide. And the line is, Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown, but it's often misquoted as heavy is the head that wears the crown. But anyway, I mean, it's a very, I think, explicit, straightforward reference.

We know George likes Shakespeare and he's sort of weaving that in there. the crown but anyway i mean it's a very i think explicit straightforward reference we know george likes shakespeare and he's sort of weaving that in there and we're gonna see that right throughout this chapter the way that kingship really you know puts a huge burden on rob's shoulders and how it's difficult and i i would say you know the way that the crown is the the discomfort that he shows wearing it kind of reminds me a little bit of denarius right there rob's own floppy ears and he's performing right he's putting on his lords but not lords anymore his king's face and catelyn notes that throughout this chapter right that that rob no longer sounds like the boy that she knew and he doesn't quite have the iciness in his voice that ned does but he's close and i mean ned had a couple years of experience

like i don't doubt that like ned probably stood by himself sometimes was like practicing the voice and was like is this icy enough is this is this scary enough and he i mean that's awesome shit too you know he saw a lot of shit to get him to that point but yeah yeah it the daenerys comparison is great because that'd be literally those chapters are juxtaposed to each other right next in line right the penultimate then the ultimate on purpose yep that rise to rulership in that moment of getting you know after suffering bullshit that little bit of triumph that glimpse of. And I think that rings true a lot in, you know, that end of Feast. It's kind of a quiet triumph for the Starks and a quiet triumph for the Martells in some aspects that they do have a master plan going on here. And same for dance.

But it's in the opposite way, right? Like John gets stabbed. Quentin dies. It's not great then for Martell and Stark. It feels like it's about to be great, like you're really on to something. And that's where that book really gets you, really stabs you there. And I love that Thrones has that same uprising, like that, that small sense of little victories, little triumphs. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, there's, there's so many comparisons. And

I kind of wonder i still wonder every now and then what dance would have been like had it ended the way that i guess george meant it actually probably would have still gone to shit he was gonna end with some battles and he would have been like oh this is different this is different but anyway here right as you said we're ending on some high notes actually it's kind of like you end on a high note for danny and you think like everything's gonna go well then she's like oh surprise i'm in the desert and everything sucks i have no power anymore what do i do and for rob though he's like all right so i'm in this big position i gotta keep it and so he's putting on this display oliver fray his squire brings rob

his sword and rob lays it flat upon his knee which is a clear threat and actually the last time we saw rob do this if i'm if i'm not mistaken like or it was really called out was with a lannister with tyrian over in winterfell yes absolutely though i do remember this i do remember this it is when he comes and he acts all tough as the boy lord because ned's obviously in the south and he's like why are you here to kill my brother again? And she's like no I brought a gift. I brought him a

saddle. Ew. Ew. That's why he became the true monster. Yeah. Yeah that's a great thought though. I didn't realize that. It's, again, a Lannister thing.

I mean, their parents just really raised them. Like, you know, we were talking about last chapter, joking. We were like, yeah, but Ned and Catelyn talk about Jaime Lannister when they're in bed. They're like, Jaime Lannister, how he glittered. And I'm like, what? Do they, like, overcompensate in front of their kids just to hide it they're like i hate jamie lannister in front of them oh my god robin reiger captain of

the house toly guard presents the captive to his king theon yells kneel before the king lannister and sir robin forces him down and this is a great fake out right because it's leading you in this moment to think that this is going to be Jamie. Because everyone's like, yeah, we don't like fucking Lannisters here. Fucking Lannister. But then when you think it's going to be Jamie, it's Cleos? Question mark? Cleos Frey, even.

Question mark. Yeah. And Catelyn doesn't think this man looks quite like a lion. And she reflects that his mother was Tywin's sister, Jenna, but he had none of the fabled Lannister beauty. Stringy brown hair, weak chin, looked like his father, Walder's second son, Eamon Frey. And Rob tells Cleos to rise.

Catelyn's like, nope, his voice isn isn't icy enough it's not as icy as ned's would have been and then she's like but you know he doesn't sound like a boy either so that's good she's kind of pageant momming it a little bit here judging little pageant like rob sit up straight wave a little harder be a little meaner i'm fucking red cleo spray here too i was like damn damn that man's a captive chill yeah we're i think we stand cleos now we're gonna talk about it do i think that war had made a man of rob before his time she thinks and i love that i love that especially coming right off of john's first chapter. So we end Jon's first chapter with Jeor Mormont talking to him, telling him, you know, revealing Aemon's true identity as

a Targaryen. And they kind of both sit there mind blown, right? And they're like, wow, could have been a king. And he's like, yeah, man, a king. Dude was like, nah, can't do that so they talk about it and then he gives john this monologue where he's like a lord's one thing a king's another i'm sure that will come back they will garb your brother rob in silks satins and velvets of a hundred different colors while you live and die in black ring mail he will wed some beautiful princess and father's sons on her. You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Rob will rule. You will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him, they'll call your grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does while your greatest deeds all go unsung tell me that none of this troubles you

john i'll name you a liar and i know i have the truth of it john drew himself up and then john says and if it did trouble me what might i do bastard as i am what will you do mormont asked bastard as you are be troubled and keep my vows. So, we talked about family versus duty. I hate you so much. Chloe, you did this to yourself. You didn't have to throw in a John line. Alright, I'm gonna victim blame Joey. I'm gonna

victim blame Chloe. I never wanted it. I almost called you Joey, combining I guess John into your name. As we come off of talking about these themes that a Game of Thrones, Catelyn's arc was chasing family, right, and trying to keep and

hold family, and that a Clash of Kings is the Clash of Duty versus that family, and here Jon is dealing with that directly. Mormont is telling him are you really going to be happy man because it kind of sucks you can say it sucks we all know this sucks we all know what you have made to give up you've already taken your vows so what the fuck else are you going to do uh and vows feel very significant right we're hearing a lot of vows going on. Soon we'll have Rob

making Cleos swear a vow on his honor. I'm like, Rob, you better settle down because every time you point and make someone swear a vow, there are four, three fingers pointing back at you. I can't count. He's got some fingers pointing back at him. John also,

you know, ends up dying. What? After breaking a vow, vow kind of ish or planning to break a vow right and uh in those very black and white terms and i don't know i think it's interesting that he also will come back and likely be kinged as we know thanks to the hit tv experience hbo drama game of thr Thrones that John will likely the White Wolf, the King in the North yeah, a lord's one thing, a king's another

and John's gonna get both of those experiences it seems though he never wanted it and Rob is now in the midst of one of them, it's not easy no, it's not and with puberty and having been already killed once you know yeah i don't think it's uh it's anyone's cup of tea especially not

kleos's the sword on rob's lap right make it doesn't make him anxious, but the dire wolf does, because the dire wolf is now as big as an elk hound. Grey Wind is smoke dark, with eyes of molten gold. He's just sniffing around Kleos, and you know, I think things being of molten gold doesn't really bode well for anyone. Boo.

No. Boo. Oh no. I didn't think of that. It might be meant to be. they're both like older brothers i don't know but we like one of them cleos had seen the wolf take out half a dozen throats in the whispering wood and he scrambles away from the wolf while the northmen laugh then rob brings in his dog and by dog we mean wolf and and Cleo thinks, his lord, but Lord Umber reminds him that it's your grace. Everyone's just out here just yelling shit

like Theon's like, Bury your king! And Lord Umber's like, Your grace! Everyone's very, very into correcting each other right now. It's like Twitter. They're forcing the respect. Like, it's like, you have to respect. It's just kind of like, alright, we get it. He's king now. Chill. have to respect. It's just kind of like, all right, we get it.

He's king now. Chill. Chill, guys. They're just really trying to suck up, I guess. I don't know. It is kind of like the same uncouth energy that Catelyn was like, hey, please stop, you know, just talking about our plans out loud in front of the Freys. They're not stupid. They can hear you as you berate their intelligence in front of them.

Right. Right. stupid they can hear you as you berate their intelligence in front of them right right yeah even though internally internally you know as as you were saying earlier right so cleos does correct himself says your grace and catelyn thinks he's more afraid than lannister but again you don't say that shit out loud and that the kingslayer would be a much different captive and says that you know or thinks that jamie would have never bowed to saying your grace which is probably true which is true you know jamie's jamie's got that pride and also i mean if you want to see something close to that again scads whispering would fantastic um rob has arranged for kleos who is relieved to travel under a peace banner with 30 men, not 20 good men, 30 men, to escort him to King's Landing, where he'll bring Rob's terms to Cersei Lannister, and Rob wants him to understand that he is not being given freedom. His grandfather's support is crucial, but Cleos rode against them at the Whispering Wood, and that makes him a Lannister and not a Frey. and not a fray.

Yeah. What a great back and forth. How Rob sees Cleos compared to how Catalin sees Cleos feels so significant and a huge part of their individual and total downfalls in the story, right? Cat sees Cleos as a fray

because Lannisters are big, bad, bold, brave, evil, big dick energy people, right? She's like, you're not a Lannister. Lannisters are big, bad, bold, brave, evil, big dick energy people. Right? Like, she's like, you're not a Lannister. Lannisters are sassy and saucy. And beautiful. Yeah, they're good looking and manipulative. You're just, you're a weasley fray.

But Rob sees him as a Lannister because he fought for the Lannister's cause. Right? Realistically, he just lived in the wrong place at the wrong time, right? I mean, you can't control how you're born into that family. They just keep making them. I mean, those models just keep coming out. They're like iPhones, but phrase just keep going is all I'm saying. But like Cleo's couldn't help that he was born realistically.

And I think this brings up that brand's first chapter that we talked about briefly in the lightning round introduces that lord of the crossing mayhaps game going on with the walders uh up in the north with brand and how you know it just really illustrates that back and forth of who's on whose side playing around with cat and Rob with the Frey ideas. Yeah, it does. And, you know, we have joked about, but we are going to talk about Cleos like a little bit in this chapter. And I find him interesting, right? You were talking about one person sees him as a landowner,

one person sees him as a Frey. And I think he really embodies that theme of like, all right, so what makes you your family? That's a big question that the books ask and that the war has ended up pitting him against his own family right if he's fighting for the layman's side then he's fighting against a lot of the frays and so how does he choose which side to pick right and i think it's something that we're going to see in john's storyline uh since you brought john up right and? And, you know, the choice is what makes. Aemon had to choose not to, right, get involved in the Targaryen cause. Jon's being asked to do that now, but he's

not fighting against the Starks, but at some point he'll be like, all right, so what do I support, the Stark cause or the Targaryen cause? And it also speaks a little bit to something that Cleos' cousin, right, Jaime talks about later on of so many vows they make you swear and swear so where does kleos's where should his loyalty lie right his father's father has sworn to one king and then his mother is related to the other and then you get into the idea of resources of it all right like also you guys are working to clinch the lannister supply lines which is you know that's war so that's fine you're doing a war thing but like guy's got to eat guy has to fight for someone he was also just on the wrong side of the river

yeah you know at the wrong time i mean he was hanging out in the west and they were like get your ass in the saddle we're going to war kid uh i mean not kid but you know it's just like i don't know kleos is we're gonna talk about him more again kleos semi-stan account i just feel bad for the guy because i'm like i don't know you can't help again lots of kids born into these families lately all right i do feel bad for him could have been anyone I don't like support him but I'm just like damn you drew a shit straw he really takes and eats shit

this whole journey too that we see him go through he just eats shit he dies on it after eating shit it sucks if you've got a water, a beer, a pot pour it out for kleos right now yeah he might be like uptight and kind of squirrely but i mean that's like on the better side of some of these phrase okay anyway he's no godrey faring you know

yeah he could be worse he could be godrey farting okay the standard is the bar is low fuck rob makes kleos pledge on his honor as a knight he'll deliver the message and return with the reply from the queen as well as resume his captivity edmure warns every man in the hall has heard your vow and if you don't return the whole realm will know your betrayal he stiffly vows and he asks what he's going to present to the queen rob declares terms of peace long sword in hand meanwhile in the back of the hall cadillan sees karstark angrily shoved through a rank of guards and go out the door all of our hands rob has written list who blows that off if the queen regent meets rob's terms he'll sheath his sword and make an end to the war first she must release sansa and aria fuck providing transport

from king's landing to white harbor sansa's betrothal to joffrey will end cersei's cousins will be released willem and tion once sansa and aria are confirmed return to winterfell eddard's bones will be returned anda are confirmed, return to Winterfell. Eddard's bones will be returned, and he will be interred into Winterfell with his siblings. The men of House Stark who died in Ned's service must also be returned. Catelyn thinks living men had gone south, and cold bones would return. Ned had the truth of it. His place was at Winterfell. He said as much, but would I hear him?

No. Go, I told him. You must be Robert's hand. For the good of our house. For the sake of our children. My doing. Mine. No other. So we've said this before, right, during the Game of Thrones chapters, and something that we were talking about last chapter was caitlin sort of taking on the guilt and internalizing things that weren't necessarily her fault maybe maybe to feel some control over it but i do want to remind everyone that yes caitlin did at first tell ned you're gonna take this job but she was also the one who fiercely advocated after Bran's injury and kind of seemed like things seem different now that Ned not go south.

Yeah, maybe you don't take this new job and you stay with the fam real quick and you keep everyone here to heal. Yeah. Well, rip. Literally. So, Robb continues on.

You think there's just one demand. No, there are many, alright. Eddard's sword must be delivered to Riverrun, and then the queen will command her father to release the Stark captives from the Green Fork, and that in return, Robb will return the captives he had, except for Jaime, who will remain hostage for his father's

good behavior and then catelyn watches theon's sly smile that's how you know this was not a good idea wondering what the young man was thinking because she thinks that theon had a way of looking like he knew a secret joke that everyone else didn't and cat never liked that look so we're starting to get a lot of setup for theon here right right? For the Theon chapters, which you can all go listen to, because we covered those before. The final demand is a pretty big one. King Joffrey and the Queen Regent must then renounce all claims to the North, and henceforth the North is no longer part of the realm but free and independent

and shall include the Starklands north of the Neck, as well as the lands watered by the river trident and its vassal streams the great john is also the ultimate hype man the great john is the ultimate hype man he is out there going up and down the lines microphone in hand right he's like the king in the north stark stark the king in the north and he's just like yeah getting the crowd riled anger translating for rob north. And he's just like, yeah, getting the crowd riled. Anger translating for Rob every five seconds. He's like, brr, brr. And everyone's like, all right, just settle down, Great John. And Rob rolls up his parchment and he tells Cleos,

I'll get you a new map from Maester Vyman. You should take this as canon. Give it to the queen. Tywin has to start respecting these borders and must stop raiding burning and pillaging them and then finally he says no taxes incomes or service can be claimed from the north all lords and knights will be freed from their oaths and pledges and debts owed to the iron throne house baratheon and house lannister and then he's like pps the lannisters will also need to deliver 10

mutually agreed upon highborn hostages as a pledge of peace. They'll be treated as honored guests. PVPS, two will be released annually as long as the terms are kept. PPPS, if she doesn't meet the terms, he's not going to give her peace. And then he whistles beckoning Greywind forward, who is snarling. He has not eaten this afternoon. Rob's, you know, in meetings all day. who is snarling he has not eaten this afternoon robs you know in meetings all day and he's like i'll give her another whispering wood if she rejects my offer and gray one's like and you

know it's a whole thing it is this is a big demand as you kind of mentioned this is a big ask as we're going to talk about and none of these things happen right none of these things really come to pass in full whether it is the storytelling retribution to rob's oath breaking right as a device to create tension for the later story i mean cersei can't return both girls as we know she doesn't return sansa sansa escapes sansa actually gets married off to tyrian instead of joffrey got him on that one ice gets melted down into two lannister swords the independent north and riverlands does not go down as ruse and walder take over the respective roles and ned's bones really haven't made it home home yet to our knowledge and obviously barbary is

gonna be like interesting nice bones you have there i'm the bone collector this makes me think that from like the meta point of rob being betrayed in general and all of these checkmates that we're talking about and how there's really no good answer to war and kingship and everything happening in this chapter the narrative point all of these independent things not coming to pass, I feel like that means we have to see most of them completed by the end of the story by various members of House Stark

and other people in the plot in various ways, like Ned's bones being interred by the family, as we've talked about, would be a very emotional and resonant moment. Emotionally resonant, if you will. Sansa and Arya returning home, Sansa's marriage to tyrian being annulled somehow uh the valyrian steel swords that make up ice being returned to protect the stark children the north and the riverlands probably independent these are you know these are all ideas but they're things that i do think will probably

have to be turned around by the end of the story, right? Because these are big, like, well, big thoughts, big thoughts, big things hanging here. And obviously Queen Sansa is about to bring some infrastructure. I don't make the rules, George does. And these are things I could see Sansa, Jon, Arya, and Bran all accomplishing in different ways. Westeros, or out of Westeros in their own independent nation yeah I agree with that and I do

think you know the swords being ice being divided into two swords speaks to that a little and yeah you know the terms right they don't come to pass immediately because I am kind of like damn Rob you didn't try at all right like yeah

i don't know if they should have tried or not but it's clear that they didn't right they didn't even open a path at all for jamie's release or anything like you can't keep him a hostage like indefinitely forever and ever amen and also they like are like yeah um so give us all the things that we want. And then also, you're gonna send us 10 hostages. And I'm like, why the fuck would anyone agree to this? Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous. I mean, they already hate you guys enough to just be murdering you over a couple decades for, you know, funsies or whatever, for their own political prowess and to get ahead and circumstantial and incest so like they're already cool with just like throwing people down or you know like chopping their heads off publicly and right now it's just the starks or

the martells in the past but it could be you tomorrow you know is the message i guess but like i get that like i'm like, it's bullshit. They murdered Ned. That's bullshit. I get why you wouldn't bend a bit. But they also, on the other hand, already don't care about trying to kill you all. So why do you think these I guess it's diplomatic, right? Like they want to start negotiations high, get bitched down a little bit. It does become, as you said, you can't keep him indefinitely. And it gets to a point where it's like, all right, Chekhov's Lannister, you needed to make a decision about this already. And now you're losing men eventually over it. You know, like you sit on it way too much.

You needed a plan. And to be fair, they really shouldn't have made any sort of like, we give in till the Blackwater. They should have waited. But that's. But but they wouldn't they didn't know that would happen they also couldn't they couldn't they didn't know and also I don't know like it's just they had they didn't have enough leverage and also they offered nothing

they offered them nothing we're like you don't even get your like big family member back member of the Kingsguard honestly and then it's nothing. They offered them nothing. We're like, you don't even get your big family member back. Remember the Kingsguard. Honestly, and then it's too little too late. Should have just tried. But then it's also then war again, as Brynden will bring up later.

Then you're just rehashing the evil in their minds, so it's like, what happens when Jaime's back in the field? That's why it's a clash of kings. Oh my god. Cleos agrees to deliver this message. He's gonna ride at first light.

Rob commands he's given a meal, clean clothing. Rob closes his session and leaves, the knights and lords bending the knee as he and Grey Wind exit. Catelyn follows him and Oliver out, Edmure at her side, praising how Rob held court, but also Catelyn's like, but at the same time, the use of your wolf on Kleos, it was kind of more befitting a boy than a king, Rob. Rob plays it cool in return, but Catelyn reminds him, Lord Karstark walked out at this display.

Rob takes off his crown, he has Olivar take it up to the bed chamber and I do have to say it's interesting that there's something about the second the crown's removed Rob and his mother are able to actually speak more freely to each other about what's really going on and what's on their mind and beyond just speaking freely right Rob ends up becoming a boy

again during that time right very much a son like how did that go and kind of getting his mother his mother's opinion things like approval too yeah yeah there's a couple other things here that i think stood out uh rob giving kleos a meal and clean clothing guest right right in that token that he was kind of giving kleos guest right saying all right we won't kill you prisoner of war but at that same time kleos is being made to swear these vows in front of everybody by rob which really feels hammered home now knowing what happens someday uh when rob breaks his own vow to the phrase even this lannis fray kept his vow you know. And I do think maybe this is going to be a semi-unpopular reading of it,

but I think Rob's boyish display is definitely for his bannermen. Not purely in a bad way, but you have to have control in front of the Northmen who see him as Ned's boy, right? It was a show for them and the Rivermen in front of Cleos who didn't deserve it he didn't uh yeah he's not that bad a dude just born lived hanged near the wrong place he did his duty to the family that he was supposed to but it's like i don't know i just feel bad for him because what

was he supposed to do yeah i don't know that that's like or should be unpopular i think that's definitely what it is right because power is just as much as that mummer's't know that that's like, or should be unpopular. I think that's definitely what it is, right? Because power is just as much as that mummers show, right? And that's what Varys points out. And that's what Rob is putting on. That's why we were comparing it to Dany's floppy ears earlier on. It's a performance that he's putting on to exert his power. And I agree about Cleo. I mean, this chapter makes me feel like really bad for him. And maybe I'm supposed to actually feel more bad for Cleo than like the Jamie chapters. Because, you know, he dies in those. But I actually feel more bad for him here. When I like take a look at like all the things that he's going to have to do the rest of his life. And I'm just like, wow, that's just so exhausting.

Like he goes to war against his family. Then he gets captured after watching a bunch of people die then he's subjected to like this whole fucking show and then he gets sent all the way back to the capital right which is like a bazillion miles away on horseback gets like almost attacked in a couple of things then he gets sent all the way back to Riverrun, right? And then he's supposed to go- and then he gets captured again, right? Because Tyrion has sent, like, people to free Jaime, and then he gets in a

bunch of trouble. But then Cleos gets sent again all the way back to the capital, and this time in secret, so with less protection and then doesn't die. But, like, the entire thing, it is just so it's just so tiring to think about it is tiring i do feel for him and it's like that's you were like maybe i should feel worse for him later and the first thing i thought was i don't

know his suffering's over shit that's also true and then jamie has to like lie to his parents he'd be like yeah like yeah he died fantastically he was very brave and we gave him a proper burial I'm like damn that boy didn't even get that oh my god Edmure declares there are probably others who felt similarly to Karstark

he thinks they should be marching on Harrenhal Karstark does while the Lannisters continue to burn the Riverlands but Rob is like we lack the strength. Edmure says their host is dwindling every day, and Catelyn's like, yeah, but part of that is your fault. She totally snaps at him. Edmure had insisted Robb give the Riverlords leave to defend their own lands after he had been crowned. Mark Piper, Carol Vance, they're the first to go.

Jonas Bracken follows. Mark Piper, Carol Vance, they're the first to go. Jonas Bracken follows. Jason Malister was the most recent to announce his intent to leave to Seagard, which had been mercifully untouched by the fighting. Edmure says he can't ask his men to stay idle while their people and fields are being slaughtered, but Lord Karstark is a Northman. It would not be great if he left their cause.

Rob's like, alright, I'll speak with him. I can't blame him for not wanting to make peace with his son's killers. And then he's like, I guess my father's killers. Catelyn reminds him Bloodshed will not bring Ned nor Rickard's sons back to them. They have to make an offer. Although, she adds, a wiser man might have offered a little sweeter terms. Yes, agreed. And Rob responds that any sweeter and he would have been gagged. And like, I don't know, Rob, he really, really could have been a little sweeter. And his beard had continued to grow redder than his auburn hair, and he seemed

to think that it made him look fierce and older, but bearded or no, he's still 15, and again, you all know how I feel about those, and he wants vengeance as much as Rickard Stark. Cat reflects that it had been difficult to even get Rob to make this offer, and I'm like,

shit, what were the first ones? And she reiterates to him that circe will never trade aria and sansa for a pair of lannister cousins she will want the kingslayer and i'm like i know they were never going to trade aria anyway but whatever you know whatever they're not worth that that's not worth that those are siblings come on now you guys haven't played crusader kings and it shows i mean they didn't have aria so it would have it would have all been fucked anyway no it's all nixed and you know i have to tell you sidebar this reminds me of uh kim's convenience episode that we watched

this week the one where mr kim writes a letter of reference for gerald and it's very blunt and honest just here like you really couldn't have made it sweeter rob you sure uh yeah very similar very similar well rob says his lords would never abide them releasing the kingslayer she argues these same lords just made you their king rob and he's like yeah but they can unmake me just as easily, Mom. I get it. I get it, Rob. That's what the next book is about when we see what happens to Jaor and to Joffrey

and I get it. And then the other books too, anyways. Yeah, and then Jon at the end of that. Yep, whatever. Yep, Quentin, Jon, they all just die yolo well actually not true not yolo not yolo uh well john yeah yeah and cat catalyn says if this crown is the price to bring sansa and aria home they should pay it willingly and then she starts to say if jamie

is murdered in his cell while still prisoner men will, and he cuts her off and he's like, that he deserved it. You might want to watch what you say, Rob. Be careful what you say, because that could happen to you one night. She asks, what about your sisters? Will they deserve their deaths as well? She says, if anything happens, Cersei would pay them back blood for blood. But Rob's like, Lannister won't die. He has food, water, and more comfort than he should have, but I'm not freeing him. Not even for Arya and Sansa. I mean, the reality is no, he shouldn't throw down his

crown for them. Thousands and thousands of people's lives are at risk from living under this tyranny, and as we'll talk about that cycle can just start over and over again easily but the other reality is also ned died to save the children ned's like one wish was like i'm doing this to save my daughter i am up here proclaiming joffrey is a a good king a real ruler and robert's son because it's promising my daughter's safety it's the thing I'm gonna do to save them so it does kind of ring a little bit that I'm like what what's the choice right reality is Sansa's already suffering in King's Landing because of Robb's wins and she would suffer probably similarly after his losses right I mean this is keeping her alive bloody bit by

bloody bit right for the moment but even before the treaty reaches cersei's ears that's already happening you know in the very first chapter your brother jamie keeps losing battles is what he says to tyrian and then he gives sansa an angry look as if it were her fault he's been taken by the Starks and we've lost Riverrun and now her stupid brother is calling himself a king there's no winning I agree and I think that's a great point that uh I mean Ned was willing to give it all up right for his daughter's daughter individually here to be alive he would have done it for aria as well and i mean the big picture is right and i understand i understand the big picture view that rob has taken that this is the sacrifice that he's chosen and it's his sister's depending you know based on the knowledge that he has it's his sister's but i also don't think catelyn is

wrong for wanting to save her daughters, right? Same as Ned wasn't. And I know this isn't true of every mother, but I know personally that my mother would do anything and she would sacrifice and trade anything, even a kingdom, for my safety. And I see that as what Catelyn is doing here. And in another way, I kind of also see what's happening here. And Catelyn's choices, it's both similar and different, interestingly, to Edmure's. Her brother, who was raised in many of the same ways that she was. And Edmure's decision in letting the Riverlands Lords go.

And Edmure's decision makes sense tactically. And it's very aligned with the Edmure that we get later, because again, we are Edmure apologists. I don't think there's anything to be- we're Edmure stans. Yeah, fine. We stan everything. Yeah, we stan everything now. We're very balanced. um anyway so what edmure does it's aligned with the man who says my people they were afraid right when he makes that choice and he understood the value of that individual safety and the desire to protect one's own family right that that first part of the tully house words and that's very much like

what catelyn wants right she wants this smaller scale individual good, the safety of her family, her daughters together. And I think there is absolutely value in that beyond just wanting her family together, wanting to protect her family, which is what Edmure empathizes with amongst his lords. And it's that the Stark girls then cannot be used as pawns against Robb's claim or war which we see ends up happening of course later on in the story but in contrast but it also does contrast with Edmure's actions in that I think that the chapter kind of goads us into thinking that Edmure's decision to send the lords home was a bit naive especially because like yes we know now in hindsight and seeing like Edmure fully that it is well-intentioned,

but we get the news from the Blackfish that, you know, everything went to shit, right? We sent the Lords home, and that weakened our military force. The Lords now individually are floundering. The dairies are all dead. But Cat's impetus to bring the whole family back together is much more of, like like that Stark the pack survives and that's not what

Edna did right by letting the Riverlands go home and how that's sort of a supposed blunder yeah and that's interesting that you bring up the weakening of Rob's claim I kind of forget about that as we get into it that is a big part of it you know yeah uh being able to use those girls as pawns and obviously later on we know aria does get used as that pawn without even being there lol

everyone's dead so it doesn't matter but i hope the princess dies oh Oh my god. Well, be careful. Again, they gotta quit saying all these bold, rash things, these starks. Yeah, I agree. Her son was looking down at her, Catelyn realized. Was it war that made him grow so fast,

she wondered, or the crown they had put on his head? Cat asks if Rob's afraid to have jamie back in the field and graywind growls sensing rob's anger pew pew pew edmure puts his hand on cat's shoulder saying don't the boy has the right of this of course this sets rob off the boy is kind of the no-no phrase uh he turns his anger at his uncle and he's like I am a man grown and a king not a boy

Rob you're not but anyways kind of I do feel bad though because Endyear was just trying to back Rob up right he's just like let it go but again you know the Stark family they've all taken it all wrong but it's because

he's unintentionally right touching rob's insecurity and why he's the performance that he has to put on with the crown which i think caitlin fairly uncourteously right this this was not great of her kind of needled him on by goading him with with those lines about Jamie. Yeah. Yeah. It was a bit much. I think... Not very motherly. A little immature. Everyone is stressed, Kat. Okay? We're all running on limited resources here

trying to run this rebellion. Eat a fucking Snickers. You gotta keep going. I know everyone's dying around you. And your husband and your grieving. dying around you and your husband and you're grieving but and your father and your daughters you're never gonna see him again until except maybe that one time when you might fingers crossed which is why she's taking it out on like i guess her son

right because she feels he's the one keeping it out but it's still not it's not a very nice mother thing to say or do yeah well i'm not a pair of rob rob brings it out he's like i'm not afraid of jamie i'll defeat him again if i have to but and then he trails off and he's like i might have been able to trade jamie for ned but and now cadeline finishes his sentence in a rare turn of events and she says but not for girls girls are not important enough are they this one is earned i mean it is earned very uh arias the woman is important too right uh bringing those vibes and it's sadly fitting right if sansa does become the queen in the motherfucking north after all of this. It's sad, right?

It's kind of poetic, like, that she wasn't worth saving now, but she might save it all at the end or be the person to lead them at the end. And it is perfect introduction of tension here for Catelyn, because Catelyn's last POV chapter in this book, of course, is her freeing Jamie in her last-ditch hope effort to save what part of her family that she can save absolutely you're right it does tie in the whole from the start to the end of this book well we have this line of rob made no answer but but there was hurt in his eyes. Blue eyes, tully eyes, eyes she had given him. She had wounded him, but he was too much his father's son to admit it.

That was unworthy of me, she told herself. Gods be good, what is to become of me? He is doing his best, trying so hard. I know it, I see it, and yet I have lost my Ned. The rock my life was built on I could not bear to lose the girls as well and I get that I really do

and Rob says he'll do what he can for his sisters but I don't know the terms that he offered doesn't really feel like it and he says if the queen has sense she'll accept the terms or else and again I'm just like what the fuck does that mean why the terms make no sense like are you gonna do bark at her right like he's like if she has no sense i'm like no if the queen has sense she's not gonna fucking accept this this is these are ridiculous terms also he's totally missing the fact that like

cersei's narcissism at adoring having a miniature girl in an unfortunate situation to eat the misery off of like oh yeah cersei loves it sansa's her buddy man she's like oh you're annoying little dweeb but i kind of like bullying you day and night and emotionally abusing you she likes to project she's projecting yeah no one ever lets her project for that long that's true except for no jamie does yeah but he learned slow learners but they learn oh my god all right anyways so rob turns the tables back to caitlin asking if she's certain that she won't go to the twins while the warring happens because he had hoped that caitlin could help her choose a pride of the phrase when the war is done but shut up rob yeah right but catelyn catches on that truly she's like kings don't want their

mothers at court especially mothers that tell him what he doesn't want to hear and so she just responds with coolly with well rob i think you're old enough to choose your wife without me and so he insists then instead that catelyn go with theon to escort the captives to seaguard and then find a ship home to winterfell to bran and rickon who need her and so again she reads the subtext here he does not need her she had actually though turns out planned to stay at riveron besides with her dying father and then rob kind of like mentioned semi threatens that he could command her to go as king this is a little petulant thing as as king i could

like okay rob okay settle down power hungry you just got this crown don't lose it in a day bitch your mother is not too old to she's really not too old she's not there is something here uh that that reminds me so much of joffrey and the way his relationship with cersei has been highlighted the language feels connected also with how joffrey actually speaks to sansa in the first chapter. Joffrey turned his head. What did you say? Sansa could not believe she had spoken. Was she mad to tell him no

in front of half the court? And of course he comes back and says, Did you say I can't? Did you? That I can't, you know, and that like kingly little thing going on. Definitely some young boy kings that are uh still coming into their own here i mean cersei did just learn firsthand that you can't control

your king's son right like when sons turn into kings things change and when ned's head rolled she learned that one for sure she was like wow i've been out done at my own goddamn game. And now Catalin's learning that same lesson after Ned's head is rolled. Yeah, the power dynamics shift, right, from the usual sort of parenting one. And I mean, like, I mean, in general, right, it shows you that your teenage rebellion is hard on parents, especially when your teenager is not just rebelling against you, but launching a large-scale political rebellion in general. And if you guys like that, you should definitely read His Dark Materials, because... Just you wait. There's war against God. Attack and dethrone God.

Anarchy isn't easy, Mom. This a phase it is tough it is tough catalan ignores this and she's like interesting threat gonna keep glossing over that one moving on she quips she's like i'd rather you send someone else to pike and keep theon close to you and he asks who better to treat with balen than his son she lists pretty much every man under the sun who would be better than theon she's like what about that guy over there he'd be better he reminds her though he's like theon saved bran from the free folk in the wolf's wood and we need lord grayjoy's ships and she's like yeah but you'd acquire them faster if you kept theon hostage e.g look at the iron throne uh with sansa she tries to explain theon's been kept a hostage for good reason balen can't be trusted he may aspire to wear his own crown again so for what it's worth this isn't just like cadeline butting in this is also ned's take

like straight up ned's take ned knew and insisted theon needed to be watched he said it to cadeline before he left from this day on i want a careful watch kept over theon grayjoy if there's war we shall have sore need of his father's fleet yeah absolutely it is it is as you said, yes, it is Ned's orders. And as we know, right, I mean, Cat is right, Ned is right, they are both right. But also, I think that Rob's decision to send Theon to the Iron Islands actually shows how much he is both like Ned and Cat, how much he is their son, but in different ways. Because, yes, Ned would not have let go of Theon, right? But if you look at Rob's own circumstances, right, Ned ends up on the path that he did because he chose that path out of love. And it's clear that Rob loves Theon like his own brother. Ned dies out of love for Sansa, like family. And Theon's like family to Rob.

And, I mean, look at the other huge mistake that rob makes in his life it's also born out of love for his other brother john he marries jane so as to not make a bastard like john so that's that's part of his emphasis being like theon would never betray me but also for rob to send theon away and trusting in Theon to fulfill this really big, wild, negotiating ask, sending away this hugely important hostage, I mean, that's also very much like his mother and what she does at the end of this book. Yeah, and maybe if he had put in like some foundational, like, when you do this, I have big plans for you. Maybe if he had maybe put some incentive, carrot in front of the horse there,

reminded him how much he loved him, you know, like the High School of Thrones series. You're my bro, bro. I don't know if that was a good reference here. They should have called it We Do Not Party Rock. I still see it by that. It should have been We Do Not Bro, anyway. We Do Not Bro.

Yeah, I don't know. I do think that maybe some foundation could have been laid for theon not to believe all of his father's negging when he shows up like there's the fact that obviously asha's uh ambiance we'll call it is a little threatening to theon who has been away for so long and also that theon's like desperate for love uwu so i'm just like curious i'm like if only you had laid it out a little more foundationally for theon and maybe made a convincing case for what he was doing and how much you loved him rob yeah i agree i mean it could have stood up to it i think it would have made theon's decision harder but i don't know could have offered him sea dragon point

or some shit that's true right uh yeah he could have offered him but you know the catch is he has to get sansa back he could have offered him sansa's hand i don't know if he would have done that because technically theon is a hostage and therefore that is lower but you know emphasizing that but at the same time is it enough right because we see it's something that we discussed at the end of our pentos patreon episode how the desire and the chase for love when you're denied it is such a big driving factor for characters and for theon he very so much clearly craved a father's love especially his father's love and and approval he craved that family and obviously the Starks were never gonna

be that for him even if Rob felt that way about him and you know bringing back kind of some of that idea we talked a little bit you know we bring up Seadragon Point and I really still feel strong that Asha may have some sort of involvement with back kind of some of that idea we talked a little bit you know we bring up c dragon point and i really still feel strong that asha may have some sort of involvement with the north in her end game whether it be you know making that little area a nice place and some sort of some sort of resolution between the mormons and the gray joys has to go down i think that's bigger than just like hey we fought next to each other in stanis's camp and you were pretty cool that one time you know i think there has to be some sort of

just fix on those relationships they got to do something there because ash is kind of sitting there like oh wow we were dicks uh and so something feels poetic about how here rob brings up i wouldn't grudge balin a crown if i'm king in the north why can't he be king of the isles if that's what he wants as long as he helps bring down the lannisters he says that's like you get a crown you get a crown everyone get a crown this is literally the end of mean girls uh rob does say though like, well, that's my final decision. Have a good day. Goodbye.

Takes off. And I do think that there's something there that sticks out about Theon as well. Not just the foreshadowing of the idea of Sea Dragon Point or anything like that happening, but also a Wolfswood showdown. It's troubling for me to say, but i'll say it again for you all because i know you all enjoy it the wolf's wood i i wonder if there's foreshadowing for maybe an eventual wolfwood showdown uh where theon protects brand there you know bad show did god's wood which makes sense because we are wood powers so it could just be god's wood but something feels really poetic about the wolfwood and maybe maybe it's theon the hungry wolf that's sticking out a stark of old in my brain but

something feels important about it yeah that is interesting and theon is hungry ambitious if nothing else like the wolf well not I guess. He's not like that. Mm-mm, mm-mm, mm-mm, mm-mm, mm-mm. Things that are like wolves and that are hungry like wolves are, in fact, wolves. Oh my god. Good one. Great segue. Thank you. Rob walked off briskly, the dire wolf padding beside him.

Catelyn could only watch him go, her son, and now her king. How queer that felt. Command, she had told him, back in Moat Cailin. And so he did. Well, Catelyn announces after that exhausting display of, again, teenage rebellion,

she is now going to visit her father, and she commands Ednir to follow, but Ednir's like, uh, no. He declines, claiming that he must visit with the new bowman being trained, and he says that he'll visit him later, and Catelyn thinks, if he still lives. And I'm like,

that was petty. That was petty. I think there are moments- She didn't say it. Yeah, she didn't say it, but it was also like, damn, why is she just ordering her younger brother, all right, we're gonna visit dad now. There are moments in this chapter that I understand, like, I think you can see some of why people

criticize Catelyn, right? I mean, it's not the best behavior on anyone's part, and especially when she's needling her son. And I do think we see this chapter a little bit of what we'll see later on of everyone kind of takes her shit out on edmure which kind of sucks like again rob taking out his frustrations slash insecurities about being a young king and taking out his frustrations with his mother you know still trying to mother him he can't do it directly to catlin though he kind of flexes a little so he takes it out on edmure instead and then now ed catlin is taking out her frustrations of being unable to get her son to follow her and losing control of him because

yeah now he's a king but really it's because you know he's 15 and that's why we keep thinking about his beard but i mean george always says that he likes to take things and inspiration from like real things that have happened and turn it up to 11 and this is that with um that change in power dynamic between son and mother and and caitlin's taking that out on edmure yeah it does ring through pretty hard especially especially because, I don't know, I think Kat does have that want to just fix things. She's like, we just have to fix it all. But that's not how this works. War is complicated. And war is complicated.

It is. She travels through the grass of the Godswood and its wildflowers. It's still summer in the face of the citadel's announcement of autumn and autumn was a fearful season with winter looming ahead harvest scarce and now her father on his deathbed i'm like damn catelyn's out here being like i'm in the autumn slash winter of my life and i'm like hey lana del rey right i'm girl, get it together. You are 32. Pick yourself up, alright? Everyone still, again, thinks you're a MILF. Theon's out here, like, just lifting you out of boats. You know, maybe-

Kat, stop posting the selfies with the lyrics in the caption. Right, like, I think Theon wanted to- I think he would have been down for Kat to accompany him on the trip. Yo, he had his hands on her waist. I'm just saying milf in the north yep absolutely rob's mom has got it going on actually everyone thinks that especially little

finger oh my god hoster is lying in his solar the view of the tumble stone and the red fork Is beyond Frail, he's sleeping Besides him sits his brother, Brendan Still dressed in his mail And a traveling cloak Splattered with mud Brendan tells her he came straight here

And just barely missed Rob Holding court He'd rather give his grace his tidings In private, first he asks how hosta has been and cat says much the same he's being fed painkillers eating little sleeping lots he speaks but makes less and less sense that feels now that i say it i'm like huh he speaks does he remember regrets long dead people long past places once he even called her minissa her mother's name brindan tells her well you have her face her cheekbones jaw catalan says well he would

remember more than she did but it's been a very long time they both then start to gaze at hoster brindan remarking each time i ride out i wonder if I shall find him alive or dead on my return. Catelyn remarks back, At least you made your peace with him. And they sit in silence for a while until Catelyn finally decides to ask him what his tidings are. Yeah, so the peace that Brynden and Hoster have made, right, and how we were discussing last chapter, Hoster wanting to see Liza once more, I think gives credence to the idea that Hoster was hoping to see her to make peace and ask for forgiveness. Right. He's doing this like end of life thing with with Brendan and then also as he's thinking of Tansy I'm not I'm not saying that Hoster deserves forgiveness right for what he did to Liza and it was very hurtful what he did to his daughter but I also think like that's kind of the point when it comes to forgiveness right it's never

necessarily deserved right it's a gift if you receive it. And I think that's a big part that ties into the themes of Catelyn's own story when we look at it in the context of Lady Stoneheart. It's telling that this moment comes up in the same chapter as Lord Karstark's walking out as his sons are brought up again, just like last chapter. And also those barrack sightings. Because forgiveness here right it's for when you are on your deathbed it's making peace forgiveness can come before then right um but that's not the sort of death that catelyn ends up getting forgiveness is just like out of the question for her and forgiveness is in a way a kind of mercy but now she's mother merciless and yet forgiveness and mercy i think are going to be big parts of the stark storyline we've discussed it

for the other character povs especially for the kids and the different ways that they are doing mercy justice and vengeance like the differences between those things and there's something to be said too of what's happening here as hoster dies, that he's losing his memories. And again, how that ties with Beric, who each time he dies and comes back, he's losing his memories. And though it is said that she don't speak, but she remember, clearly being dead for three days has taken a toll on some things. Like there's there's some things that she's she's missing. Right. Clearly, she's she might not remember. She might remember the hurt that was on her, but what are the things she doesn't remember anymore, right?

She doesn't remember the happiness, she doesn't remember peace, she doesn't remember love and forgiveness. Well, she started forgetting them here. Yep, that's true. We begin the descent, the slow descent. Well, then it's very fast, and then it's over.

the slow descent well then it's very fast and then it's over well said all around eliana that's over then they die they head outside of the solar to the stone balcony and brinden frowns upward at the red streak staining the sky he says his men much like varus called it already this book call it the red messenger catalan says the great john told rob the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for ned but edmure thinks it's an omen of victory a red fish with a long tail tully colors on blue catalan sighs she knows crimson is a lannister color but brindan says it's not crimson nor is it the tully mud red it's blood smeared across the sky she asks our blood or theirs but he responds no war has ever had only one side bleed i want to give a big congratulations to brindan tully for saying in one line what we were saying last chapter about peace.

Thanks, bro. He says it better. Yeah, right. It's almost like it's a thing that George meant for us to get, anyway. A theme. What? Those are for 8th grade book reports.

That's pretty much what this is. Hmm, interesting. Interesting for you to say that. The fighting, already bloody in the Riverlands, has moved south to the Blackwater and then north across the Trident, almost at the Twins. Mark Piper and Carol Vance have won small

victories, and the southern lordling Beric Dondarrion has been raiding the foraging parties and vanishing. Burton Cratecall had been heard boasting heging parties in vanishing burton crate call had been heard boasting he'd slain don darien until he let his column into one of his traps and every man was killed suspicious cat remembers that some of ned's men were still with this lord barrack and says may the gods preserve them man and if she's lucky, of course, with her preservation talk, they might, because Beric's red priest who rides with them has been helping the preserving process, we hear, Thoros. We also hear in the prologue that Beric Dondarrion has gone missing, some say dead.

So these are our actual very first real, how many lives does this motherfucker have, notes. Exciting to actually find him alive and dead in the next book yeah and interestingly of course get that through her daughter through Catelyn's daughter mmhmm

Brindon spots all that aside though and remarks that the Sattertails are the Riverlords Robb shouldn't have let them go because now they are scattered like quail. Weak instead of united. Jonos Bracken was wounded fighting in the ruins of his castle, his nephew slain, Tytos Blackwood had defended his land, but the Lannisters had taken all of his stores of food and his animals.

The dairymen recaptured their lord's keep, but held it less than a fortnight before gregor clagane took it putting them all to the sword cat is horrified at the death of the boy lord dairy and brendan remarks that he was the last of his line as well he would have bought a big ransom but gregor is a beast and doesn't care for ransoms how sad the last of his line and like i mentioned last chapter the dairy boy feels like kind of blat chapter, the Dairy Boy feels like kind of blatant Winterfell foreshadowing. There's a lot of blatant Winterfell foreshadowing going on in these chapters in the last few chapters of like, what's going to happen at Winterfell? All the lords protect the boy lord and his keep, but they still can't save him and he gets burnt down by the big bads. Dot, dot, dot. Well, well well well well so we'll get to that

eventually obviously but i find that some blatant foreshadowing blatant blatant brindan says gregor's head would make a noble gift for all the people of the realm and catalan's like don't talk about heads right now ned's is mounted above the red keep alone but for the flies i do think that connection with skulls like alaria's later speech as we talked about last chapter comes right back in here justice for the north justice for dorn it feels significant that amory lorch and gregor are once more being called out for committing atrocities against people with their participation in the rebellion and the slaughter of Elia and her babes. And

I just think it's really well done because we're about to get a lot of villain introductions here, right? And Catelyn goes back and forth. She says, Clegane is nothing but a cat spa for Tywin. And she thinks Tywin is the true danger, which true. Brynden also is like true. But he reminds her Tywin hides and she thinks Tywin is the true danger, which true. Brynden also is like

true, but he reminds her Tywin hides in Harrenhal. He sends his dogs into the field. Amory Lorch, you know, Gregor, and also a sellsword out of Qohor, who'd sooner maim a man than kill him. Ah, ah, ah.

Is that foreshadowing? Yeah, it is. It is is i don't know him i don't know him it is great the introduction of vargo i i think that significance of these henchmen though right uh he didn't really have a lot of big bad henchmen fully fully screen ready or page ready here so gregor and amory are obviously the significant ones but at the same time that might be an effect of gardening but also when they die war doesn't stop which is proven in both catalan's point and brindan's point right that this won't stop until tywin is dead and other men will still rise up to take that place as hired goon or as evil lord that wants

to reap the benefits it feels really important right because as these men are killed wars continue on vengeance is uh not really being acquired for house martell or house stark or the riverlands in the face of gregor being killed and amory lorch dying that's very true and yeah no no i absolutely agree as other people right from the horrors that they commit are turned into their own sort of monsters and broken men and it's a bigger systematic problem zombies cyclical oh yeah that too i forgot that yeah that's also part of it the whites and and the fire whites the ice whites and the fire whites both of them are problematic it's a lot of a lot of zombies different kinds exciting oh and gregor gregor cleane

whatever the fuck he is yeah robert strong zombie he's a dark elf anyway so these men are out here now burning the riverlands when catlin says when edmure hears this he will rage and brendan explains well the problem is that's exactly what tywin wants he wants lords into battle and catlin thinks rob will grant tywin that wish then that the other lords will urge him on after his two victories that the way the men speak of him he might have been agon the conqueror reborn i'm like well they're wrong that's dumb because if rob were like agon the conqueror born then he would just take two wives right uh and it wouldn't just be jane and then we wouldn't have any of this red wedding nonsense yeah that would cut through all

the red tape obviously yeah absolutely the red wedding tape yeah the blackfish says well those men are fools for egging him on they should never give the enemy his wish tywin wants them to march on harrenhal and all of its tall towers in pride and then we get harren's story harrenhal's story harren plunders his neighbors thousands of captives and slaves they all die after making this crazy keep for decades and he ends up getting roasted anyway by agon and we have this line heron and all his line had perished in the fires that engulfed his monstrous fortress and every house that held heron hall sense had come to misfortune strong it might be but it was a dark place and cursed

a few thoughts there right uh again heavy foreshadowing for a great keep burning down and everyone the last of the line dying so bran and rickon and winterfell later but also just a casual reminder that technically the crown says Harrenhal is Baelish's it's cursed baby I don't make the rules George does I mean beyond like the other curses of it like it belonging to

Peter Baelish that's that's it's own kind of curse too it's kind of just hysterical cause like he'd never have the money to like upkeep that keep yeah he's like I just hysterical because like he'd never have the money to like upkeep that keep yeah he's like i just want to hold it yeah well and also he's he's superstitious right he's like i'm not going there he's honestly just hoping to flip it when the markets are good make a quick book he's the kind of guy that bought a lot of reddit gamestop stocks you know he's trying to flip it

for the veil right using it to get that marriage to eliza anyway uh-huh yeah he is honestly he is one of those great sources out there that is just buying up housing in the middle of this crisis in westeros well i also really really like i do have to point out strong it might be like the strongs i don't know if it's actually really a connection i it could just be before maybe he had them written by then who knows he might he might have like been like i like that idea and then and then took it from here or something yeah what if i continued the idea okay maybe maybe wordplay i don't know it kevin says that she doesn't want rob to die fighting a battle in the shadow of that keep but they have to do something and i find it kind of fascinating

um that the lack of connection that cat and brendan show when it comes to harren hall which likely has to do with George's gardening, and he didn't really think about it that deep yet. But if I'm not mistaken, Harrenhal was a seat of Kat and Brendan's maternal line, so you'd think that there'd be a little more emotional connection or

impetus to wanting to take back Harrenhal, but maybe had George written these moments, these scenes today when more things were fleshed out, but I don't know. I do think that this is, I mean, this is the only chapter we really get that much detail about Minissa besides when she talks to her father, I guess,

but it just doesn't really come up. And yeah, Arya definitely has some better connections but there really isn't any like she looked up at the keep and thought of her mother's ancestors or blah blah there's also the fact that like she's technically a went cousin we got a little taiwan joanna sitch going on in that marriage right oh okay yeah uh of manissa totally went went totally so i don't know. It's just interesting. George, like, made it come from Cousin's lines. And I just think he hasn't put that much thought into it until later.

Like, there is definitely a lot in here that makes me think, like, look, if my tinfoil about the Kettleblacks being the Wentz, you know, my favorite tinfoil comes true. And the things that thematically are true about it that i mentioned back in the jamie chapters are true maybe george will give a shit about the wents right like maybe that will really come in handy for sansa who i mean straight up brendan says right here you catalan have the cheekbones and the jaw of your mother, who was a wend. And Sansa does look a bit like her. Yeah. I mean, when the time comes for the books to come out,

Oh my god. we will find out. Well, Brendan agrees that yeah, Ra probably shouldn't fight for Harrenhal right now and soon, because a new host is being gathered at Casterly Rock, commanded by Elana's cousin Stafford, Joanna's brother

and Brynden says that Stafford is old and dull but has a son who's more formidable Davin yeah it's kind of funny that Brynden's like ah the brother who was kind of his equal right like Stafford would be Brynden's equal-ish on that side of the family like ah that's the brother to

Joanna or the brother-in-law to Tywin. And he's like, no, he's old and dull, but Davin, Davin is more formidable, and I really do like Davin, that time we spent with him in Jaime's chapter, with his long, winding beard, and his, uh, that he grows. It's interesting that here he's like,

oh, he's more formidable, because I'm like, oh, he's just a boy. He's silly, yeah. And he gets Derry. Oh!'m like, oh, he's just a boy. He's silly, yeah. And he gets Derry. Oh, yeah, good point, good point. It all ties together. It's like it's all one story or something. Brendan says to make no mistake, because Tywin is not the Kingslayer, and he will take his time and wait for Stafford to march

before he ever has to leave Harrenhal to attack Robb. But Catelyn says, unless he had to face another threat, like, oh, King Redly. So we end this chapter with, He'll want something, though. He'll want what kings always want, she said. Homage.

If you give a mouse a cookie. He's gonna want to wear a golden rose crown. And a glass of milk. Oh my god, yeah, for sure on that. Oat milk for me, please, if we're talking about me as King Chloe here, but... So it's breast milk? I'm into oat milk, thank you. I think Renly probably would be into oat milk too,

now that I say it, or cashew milk or something crazy, but I love the closing of this, that he'll want what kings always want, she said, homage, especially after watching Rob, in the beginning of the chapter, give his men homage in a way. In A Song of Ice and Fire, it's used as a formal public acknowledgement of feudal allegiance uh this is something historically that was also

done you know you'd pay king's homage when they came through they roll through it's like when sansa and joffrey just showed up on the doorstep of some unsuspecting villagers and were like get us drunk on the trident give us homage so what's crazy is i've looked into homage in the books it's used like 40 times in the books i've dissected all the very important times it's used to refer to kings but significantly it begins in cat chapters merlion says he meant to sing an homage to her beauty and loops back around with this chapter, right? Her saying kings want homage and then in the Renly chapters. It comes back up in Qarth with Daenerys with the Qarthine and wanting to pay homage to her and her dragons.

And there are some instances throughout Sansa chapters in Storm and Feast and also Ironborn chapters demanding homage as kings. But it comes back super strongly in a dance with dragons you'll never guess this one eliana with stannis who stannis who he puts the stan in stannis so we don't have to i mean unsurprising king stannis if you will i won't but his absence is very strong in this chapter uh this time through i'm like wow that's right stannis is very quiet he's making quiet money moves at dragon stone and honestly he's already made his decision regarding rob back in the prologue right he says that rob that Rob is a green boy, another false king. And he's like, I have to accept a broken realm.

And Crescent says to him, well, surely half a kingdom's better than none. And you could help the boy avenge his father's murder. And he's like, why would I do that? Robert loved him. I hate Robert. I hate everything Robert loved. I hate Ned. Robert loved Ned.

So we know how he feels. I hate everything Robert loved. I hate Ned. Robert loved Ned. I'm jealous. I want to be Ned. Also, the boy's named after Robert. Come on now. Yeah, that's true. It's all awkward. But also geographically, there's something here that makes sense. Out in Dragonstone, they've heard that Rob's king, but here in Riverrun,

they have not heard anything about Stannis yet, just more of Renly, right? They have the news and the scoop on Renly, who declared first. So they haven't been following the Stannis affiliate tweets very quickly. And geographically, it makes sense, but it also kind of reminds me

a bit of the Greens versus the Blacks, right? And how Rhaenyra was kind of left out of the council making the decision all of a sudden while she was, you know birthing and while the greens were plotting with their golden king e.g renly it brings up those vibes here we go with stannis and renly coming to the fray to the phrase to the fray and to spit a phrase geographically makes sense. Yeah, I'm on fire. Yeah, you're rapping. It does feel like this is... Is this Lin-Manuel? It does feel like this...

These are the last chances, right? Last chances for freedom, unfortunately, for the stark rain going on right here. And they don't know it. We know it. They don't, since this is a reread. But all the cards are about to fall really poorly against them.

And this Renly thing and Rob's refusal to bend like the iron in his crown, unbending, unyielding. Their inability to make any kind of deal in the early days is pretty much what doomed them. I mean,

Tywin had to get rid of him eventually. Yeah, yeah. And inability to make any deal and that he just thought that he just knew better about everything, right? In terms of offering these, again, shit terms. Not trying

to get anything, I guess, out of that Jaime situation and also sending theon and yeah the renly and stannis stuff which i mean he can't help that stannis has like a complex about eddard sark i mean you pointed out right rob's named after robert and then and then soon comes into possession of his brother's son that is named after eddard and like i mean you can't hold rob you can't hold rob accountable for like your older brother but i mean and then stan is finally ben stanis is like fine do you fucking want to be a lord john snow and john's like i don't know doesn't sound fun to me and stanis is like god fucking damn these starts sick of them i think

that's a good point he does bend he learns to bend and it's something that rob wasn't doing he didn't have the ability to do it either right because he has to play harder right and he can't be seen bending or else his strength will be questioned at every turn as a boy right stannis has survived storm's end he's run the navy and also of course he was part of robert's rebellion a war that they won and the great joy rebellion so at least he has those under his belt no one's going to question necessarily in fact people are afraid of him they feared him in king's landing whereas no one's afraid of rob yet he has to prove his strength every single battle yeah and i think there's also something that really rings true with fire and blood right with jaharis when people really doubted his reign at the start

like when he had to go you know that was really what rob's move was with gray wind with kleos right it was a show of power just like with what he did with baratheon with his dragon yeah absolutely it is uh it is tough it is tough being 15 it's even tougher being 15 and your dad was unjustly killed and also being suddenly a lord and then a king at 15 years old and then your best friend betrays you and might have killed your brothers maybe maybe not and then you didn't take the deal for your sister's lives and you also like just get to the age before you die where you suddenly realize your mom was right about a couple of things unfortunately and no one wants to admit that at 15 16 no one it took me till at least 22 at least okay yeah yeah and then i'm still kind of yeah and i mean at least at least

he eventually had his first kiss and got laid so he's got that and he's got a cool dog yeah i don't feel bad for him on those counts great dog dog. Apparently good enough dick. Good for you, kid. Yeah, so but all the other parts. Tough shit. Poor kid. Tough also for Kat, you know. Cannot imagine being a 32-year-old mother of a teenager.

You know, as Kat would post on her Instagram selfies, we were born to die. Yeah. It's another Lana Del Rey joke. Thank you. I'll be here all night. Oh, no, I know. Oh, good. You couldn't even give me a sympathy laugh? As, you know, Catelyn would post on her Instagram,

blue jeans. Oh, my God. I don't actually remember the rest of the lyrics. Northern Independence Day, tell me I'm your national anthem. XOXO, Catelyn. Oh, okay. I don't know. Well, thanks for joining us on our very first chapter of Catalan's in A Clash

of Kings. We, uh, we're rounding out here. In a few episodes, we'll be halfway through the year of Cat, the nine months of Cat, the pregnancy of Cat. The nine lives of Cat. Oh my god, the nine lives of Cat. Hopefully it's only a couple.

I don't know if we have quite the time for that many books. I mean, we have the time for like 25 books, so. Next week, we will not be back with A Song of Ice and Fire. We are going to be starting The Amber Spyglass, so we'll be back with The Amber Spyglass on Friday, June 25th. But catch us next month for Kat's second chapter in A Clash of Kings at the start of the month.

The month of Northern Independence, because it doesn't last much longer than that. And, yeah. Did you know that we did the Northern Independence during July? Probably because of the Northern Independence episode during July, everyone. That episode that I didn't know existed

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A clash of kings. Kings. Yes.